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July 25, 2005, 12:57AM

For first time since slavery, black lives not improving
By WILLIAM RASPBERRY

There is a crisis of unprecedented magnitude in the black community, one that goes to the very heart of its survival. The black family is failing."

Quibble if you will about the "unprecedented magnitude" "” slavery wasn't exactly a high point of African-American well-being. But there's no quarreling with the essence of the alarm sounded in Washington last week by a gathering of Pentecostal clergy and the Seymour Institute for Advanced Christian Studies. What is happening to the black family in America is the sociological equivalent of global warming: easier to document than to reverse, inconsistent in its near-term effect "” and disastrous in the long run.

Father absence is the bane of the black community, predisposing its children (boys especially, but increasingly girls as well) to school failure, criminal behavior and economic hardship "” and to an intergenerational repetition of the grim cycle. The culprit, the ministers (led by Boston's Rev. Eugene Rivers III, president of the Seymour Institute) agreed, is the decline of marriage.

Kenneth B. Johnson, a Seymour senior fellow who has worked in youth programs, says he often sees teenagers "who've never seen a wedding."

The concern is not new. As Rivers noted at last week's National Press Club news conference, the late Daniel Patrick Moynihan sounded the alarm 40 years ago, only to be "condemned and pilloried as misinformed, malevolent, and even racist."

What is new is the understanding of how deep and wide is the reach of declining marriage "” and the still-forming determination to do something about it.

When Moynihan first issued his controversial study, roughly a quarter of black babies were born out of wedlock; moreover, it was largely a low-income phenomenon. The proportion now tops two-thirds, with little prospect of significant decline, and has moved up the socioeconomic scale.

There have been two main explanations. At the low-income end, the disproportionate incarceration, unemployment and early death of black men makes them unavailable for marriage. At the upper-income level, it is the fact that black women are far likelier than black men to complete high school, attend college and earn the professional credentials that would render them "eligible" for marriage.

Both explanations are true. But black men aren't born incarcerated, crime-prone dropouts. What principally renders them vulnerable to such a plight is the absence of fathers and their stabilizing influence.

Fatherless boys (as a general rule) become ineligible as husbands "” though no less likely to become fathers "” and their children fall into the patterns that render them ineligible as husbands.

The absence of fathers means, as well, that girls lack both a pattern against which to measure the boys who pursue them and an example of sacrificial love between a man and a woman. As the ministers were at pains to say last week, it isn't the incompetence of mothers that is at issue, but the absence of half of the adult support needed for families to be most effective.

Interestingly, they blamed the black church for abetting the decline of the black family "” by moderating virtually out of existence its once stern sanctions against extramarital sex and childbirth and by accepting the present trends as more or less inevitable.

They didn't say "” but might have "” that black America's almost reflexive search for outside explanations for our internal problems delayed the introspective examination that might have slowed the trend. What we have now is a changed culture "” a culture whose worst aspects are reinforced by oversexualized popular entertainment and that places a reduced value on the things that produced nearly a century of socioeconomic improvement. For the first time since slavery, it is no longer possible to say with assurance that things are getting better.

As the Rev. Jesse Jackson once said in a slightly different context, "What began as a problem has deteriorated into a condition. Problems require solving; conditions require healing."

How to start the healing? Rivers and his colleagues hope to use their personal influence, a series of marriage forums and their well-produced booklet, "God's Gift: A Christian Vision of Marriage and the Black Family," to launch a serious, national discussion and action program.

In truth, though, the situation is so critical "” and its elements so interconnected and self-perpetuating "” that there is no wrong place to begin. When you find yourself in this sort of a hole, someone once said, the first thing to do is stop digging.

Raspberry is a Pulitzer Prize-winning syndicated columnist based in Washington, D.C. (willrasp@washpost.com)

© MBM

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quote:
moderating virtually out of existence its once stern sanctions against extramarital sex and childbirth and by accepting the present trends as more or less inevitable.

They didn't say "” but might have "” that black America's almost reflexive search for outside explanations for our internal problems delayed the introspective examination that might have slowed the trend. What we have now is a changed culture "” a culture whose worst aspects are reinforced by oversexualized popular entertainment and that places a reduced value on the things that produced nearly a century of socioeconomic improvement.



Nailed it!!!!

We have a CULTURAL PROBLEM folks.

As each of us in our own little way carry the water for the national political party or ideological frameworks that are in place in this country we end up losing it all in the end.

For example, expanding outside of the USA - Most Black Americans are debating the country of Niger in the context of Karl Rove, Joseph Wilson, Valery Plame and the Yellow Cake Report RATHER THAN from the context of their current condition of FAMIE that threates to have hundreds of thousands of people to perrish because in their desperation in the context of a disruption in their food supply chain they were forced to consume the seeds for the harvest that should be in the ground and they have slaughtered many of their farm animals for consumption leaving them without milk for today.

I again emphasize my suggestion that Reperations for American Slavery be made in the form of a "Marshall Plan" for Africa with Black Americans being trained and then employed to build major infrastructure in these countries to allow them to first stabilize and then prosper.
I think what should happen is that we should recognize that this phenomenon is the product of cultural engineering of human behavior. Next, we need to understand exactly what the primary forces are that are creating this culture and what are our abilities, as a people, to reengineer this culture to the benefit of our families and community. Can we reengineer a culture that we do not have complete ownership and control over?

I don't think that it is feasible to socially engineer "black culture", without first promoting "separatism". The reason being that black culture is a reaction to or emulation of white culture, as we are in the same boat. Thus, We need our own media, TV programming and the like to REPLACE that which is the product and control of non blacks, which works to influence our people. Black folks spend an awful lot of time watching TV, which is a terrible influence. We then need people of stature and fame to set the proper example. I think the most powerful image that should be promoted is a HAPPY black man and women (as husband and wife) and their children...bottom line. Currently, the single life and the single lifestyle is viewed as promoting happiness more than married life. Everyone want to maximize their happiness and if more males associated marriage with happiness...then more males would be getting married.
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We need our own media, TV programming and like to REPLACE that which is the product and control of non blacks.


Internet Technology with it's global reach and it's low barriers to entry offers the best chance for Black people to build a virtual community of interest and present your own content.

Right now we choose to give $0.99 a pop to a company for ring tones or $6.95 per month to Verizon Wireless to watch video clips.

This money is PURPOSELESS spending and is money taken away from the POTENTIAL Black Mass Media outlet who needs money to be lifted off of the ground.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
We need our own media, TV programming and like to REPLACE that which is the product and control of non blacks.


Internet Technology with it's global reach and it's low barriers to entry offers the best chance for Black people to build a virtual community of interest and present your own content.

Right now we choose to give $0.99 a pop to a company for ring tones or $6.95 per month to Verizon Wireless to watch video clips.

This money is PURPOSELESS spending and is money taken away from the POTENTIAL Black Mass Media outlet who needs money to be lifted off of the ground.


I don't think that can reengineer black culture. What needs to happen is that "other influences" need to be truncated from being an option. The reason being is that sin is often more pleasurable than righteousness, which is why we pray to be led not into its temptations. Pleasure translate into profit in capitalism and the current media caters to pleasures which attract viewers and hence advertisement and hence profits. Hence, if one offers righteousness media in America, juxtaposed with pleasurable unrighteous media, the human propensity to seek pleasure stimulation will win out the majority of the time.
quote:
Pleasure translate into profit in capitalism and the current media caters to pleasures which attract viewers and hence advertisement and hence profits.


When the TRUE consequences of this SIN is put forth then a VALUE EQUATION will be formed in the person's mind!!!

AIDS is a possible consequence of pursuing the desire for TACTILE stimulation of the nerves on the tip of your penis absent a condom if not avoidance of this casual sex in the first place.

To THEN have folks step in and advance the notion that AIDS was developed in a government laborator DOES NOTHING TO STOP THE SPREAD OF AIDS

Finding the SOURCE of this conspiracy to destory Africans DOES NOTHING to ELIMINATE THE SPREAD AND RESULTING DEATH OF THIS VIRUS unless you can get the antagonist to come up with a serum to cure it.

The basic TRUTH of the magnitude of our decisions need to be expressed BLUNTLY.

We need social constructs such as marriage to "slow the roll" of many people. We then need the peer pressure of that same society to have people live up to the cultural ideals.

WE CAN'T ASSUME PERFECTION BUT WE NEED TO SET A GENERAL DIRECTION!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
Pleasure translate into profit in capitalism and the current media caters to pleasures which attract viewers and hence advertisement and hence profits.


When the TRUE consequences of this SIN is put forth then a VALUE EQUATION will be formed in the person's mind!!!

AIDS is a possible consequence of pursuing the desire for TACTILE stimulation of the nerves on the tip of your penis absent a condom if not avoidance of this casual sex in the first place.

To THEN have folks step in and advance the notion that AIDS was developed in a government laborator DOES NOTHING TO STOP THE SPREAD OF AIDS

Finding the SOURCE of this conspiracy to destory Africans DOES NOTHING to ELIMINATE THE SPREAD AND RESULTING DEATH OF THIS VIRUS unless you can get the antagonist to come up with a serum to cure it.

The basic TRUTH of the magnitude of our decisions need to be expressed BLUNTLY.

We need social constructs such as marriage to "slow the roll" of many people. We then need the peer pressure of that same society to have people live up to the cultural ideals.

WE CAN'T ASSUME PERFECTION BUT WE NEED TO SET A GENERAL DIRECTION!!!


That is one hell of a misdirection or digression, black man. I am tempted to follow your digression...but it will only lead me into your abyss of infinite digression of which I could never find my why back to the original point.
I believe that most of the pathologies that affect black people are along socioeconomic lines and are not necessarily cultural in nature. If you read any old political science books, it talks about wealth, education and life's chances...and lists a whole bunch of outcomes that tend to be positive with wealth and education, such as health and longevity, marriage and stable family structures, less unemployment and violence, less drug use and so on.... If i were to believe that certain pathologies are particular to blacks, I would expect to see the same behaviors amongst all black people to the same extent regardless of socioeconomic status and that obviously is not the case.

As I have stated earlier, i think a two-pronged approach is necessary where black people secure what is rightfully theirs and owed to them also (equality and reparations) internally while establishing an external system such as development of african countries to employ american blacks and bring the brothers and sisters in the Motherland up to speed also. I think everyone in this country with a skill should have been involved with Randall Robinson and TransAfrica in some form or fashion. I would love to see such a program expanded nationally. An independent economic infrastructure (external)could be established but at that point there would have to be the possibility of military threat addressed.


From an internal standpoint, the equity and reparations could be attained by using the leverage associated with buying power to force fair hiring and investment inclusion and to obtain political concessions as needed just like the Jews do....small in number but understand the concept of spending as a bloc.....i will go into more detail later...in terms of what steps need to be taken to establish such a platform for blacks in america.........
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

I don't think that it is feasible to socially engineer "black culture", without first promoting "separatism". The reason being that black culture is a reaction to or emulation of white culture, as we are in the same boat.


Again, exactly! You cannot seperate Black culture from the context and background of American Culture.

In all of America, families are failing. How many families can you name that have at least one "stay-at-home" parent? And how many single parent families do you know? I can name at least three. Even in Latino families, where the tradition has been towards strong, cohesive family values there is a growing trend towards both parents working.

All in the pursuit of consumerism (I know you'll dig on that comment, CF). But it's not just consumerism. It's the cost of living that almost requires that both parents work. And In a single parent family it's mandatory with the changes in welfare support laws of the last ten years.

It's a terrible commentary, but WE ARE WHAT WE DO and not many Americans are willing to sacrifice their standard of living for the sake of their children.
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"Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it."
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If i were to believe that certain pathologies are particular to blacks, I would expect to see the same behaviors among all black people to the same extent regardless of socioeconomic status and that obviously is not the case.---K41

Whatever solution, or combination thereof, is selected, we are talking about extraordinarily 'heavy lifting.'

I the answer to what is observed is that different behaviors are exhibited by different people impacted by the same stimuli.

I do not think that difference denies the commonality of our 'history and experience.'

I know I hammer this, but I really believe it's true. Dr. DeGruy-Leary has done definitive work in giving scientific validity to what we have for generations called 'Uncle Tomism.'

She has taken it from simply a derogatory, expletive if you will, to a more elevated position in social science deserving of the consideration of thinking minds.

I believe Dr. W.E.B. DuBois would be proud.

I also believe the time will come when she will be placed along side Dr. Kenneth Clark, and others of that stature. I consider her there now.

Clearly, there SOMETHING SYSTEMIC at work with us as a people. I believe The DeGruy-Leary Effect comes closest to identifying it, to date.

Consistent with my believe that all such discussions are pointless without addressing the issue of correction, healing.

The solution lies in the ultimate definition and declaration of our identity with the uniqueness that places it where it belongs along side all the other unique identities of the world.

As you know, I have chosen African America as that unique identity that embraces the full ethnicity of us as a people in the world.

The think that is the foundation from which all (successful) solutions to our many challenges will be constructed.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I believe that most of the pathologies that affect black people are along socioeconomic lines and are not necessarily cultural in nature. If you read any old political science books, it talks about wealth, education and life's chances...and lists a whole bunch of outcomes that tend to be positive with wealth and education, such as health and longevity, marriage and stable family structures, less unemployment and violence, less drug use and so on.... If i were to believe that certain pathologies are particular to blacks, I would expect to see the same behaviors amongst all black people to the same extent regardless of socioeconomic status and that obviously is not the case.

As I have stated earlier, i think a two-pronged approach is necessary where black people secure what is rightfully theirs and owed to them also (equality and reparations) internally while establishing an external system such as development of african countries to employ american blacks and bring the brothers and sisters in the Motherland up to speed also. I think everyone in this country with a skill should have been involved with Randall Robinson and TransAfrica in some form or fashion. I would love to see such a program expanded nationally. An independent economic infrastructure (external)could be established but at that point there would have to be the possibility of military threat addressed.


From an internal standpoint, the equity and reparations could be attained by using the leverage associated with buying power to force fair hiring and investment inclusion and to obtain political concessions as needed just like the Jews do....small in number but understand the concept of spending as a bloc.....i will go into more detail later...in terms of what steps need to be taken to establish such a platform for blacks in america.........


Kevin:

(I know that you think that I just like picking your arguments apart. With you and Noah I am only hoping to have you fine tune your arguments - if you choose to heed my advice).

Do you ever note that much of your plans forward are dependent on receiving a measure of "reparation" from White folks over slavery. I am not critiquing your right to have such a perspective.

My challenge to you is to fully define a path forward for Black people if there is continued resistance to ever supplying REPARATIONS and/or resistance to EQUITABLE HIRING? What happens if the US's economic position erodes? Do you think that this would tend to STRENGTHEN the chances of Reparations or make them less likely. (IF YOU PLEASE - this is not a debate on MERITS of Reperations!!! This is a debate on LIKELYHOOD and/or a CONTENGENCY).

Secondly does the prospective erosion of the US's economic position MANDATE A MORE INDEPENDENT, SELF SUFFICIENT STANCE AND INVESTMENT IN AFRICAN COUNTRIES AS A MEANS OF BUILDING A PLACE FOR SOFT LANDING.

Do you have any consideration for WHAT THE OPPOSITION MIGHT DO factored into your plan?
First, CF... instead of trying to "Fine Tune" someone else's perspective. You need to RE-EVALUATE your own:

quote:
If i were to believe that certain pathologies are particular to blacks, I would expect to see the same behaviors amongst all black people to the same extent regardless of socioeconomic status and that obviously is not the case.


Second, you're whole point in your supposed critique of Kevin's perspective (the one time he happens to mention Reparations... which is NOT a staple of his arguments), completely ignores his Anti-European Worldview -- i.e. he has NEVER stated an EITHER OR position.

In fact, he has stated explicitly it's a BOTH AND proposition and relayed to you how he was brought up and taught in an mostly/all Black situation that was competitive, etc.

DUMBASS!!! Black Conservatives didn't invent the concept of Self-Reliance. But, hmmmm.... WE PAY TAXES IN THIS BITCH so we are more than justified in demanding a proper return on our investment with or without Reparations.

But yet you continue to SPEAK IN DEFERENCE and, as KEVIN says, you are just fine with Letting That Go ON THE HOUSE... Both the continued Lack Of Political Efficacy for African-Americans in America's WHITE MAJORITY RULE "Democracy" along with it's Skim Off The Top Racism as the Operating SYSTEM that runs through its institutions.

But back to your CULTURALIST perspective...
"If i were to believe that certain pathologies are particular to blacks, I would expect to see the same behaviors amongst all black people to the same extent regardless of socioeconomic status and that obviously is not the case."

Your comments??
Do you have any consideration for HOW YOUR IDEAS REFLECT INTERNALIZED RACISM factored into your critiques? sck
quote:
WE PAY TAXES IN THIS BITCH so we are more than justified in demanding a proper return on our investment with or without Reparations.



I have heard this argument many times in the past.

My challenge to you is to demand lower national taxes and proportionally raise the taxes that you invest locally.


You want text books instead of bombs? Control your own money

You want your FAIR SHARE? Then stop letting this money escape your grasp.

You complain about the opposition party being in power and them having differing spending priorities than your own? Stop sending them your money at such a high rate to allow them to shut you out.



But let us be honest NCONTINENCE: You know that Kneegrows like you like a system of high federal taxes and having them being showered back down upon the people where the NEED IS.

You know that this stems from the fact that in our current state there is not enough economic output in the BLACK COMMUNITY to sustain ourselves as other communities (notice I did not say races) are able to.

It seems to me that you pick off several problems at once by a change in strategy.

Build local economic power, employ your people via the demand that creates these jobs, retain their wealth and the subsequent tax money locally as much as possible. Leverage this money and economic POWER to expand your communities. Fund good government initiatives. Promote healthy relationships with law enforcement and the judicial function having them work in your best interests rather than as adversaries.
quote:
HOW YOUR IDEAS REFLECT INTERNALIZED RACISM


"Internalized Racism"?

Hummmmmm. Let us expound upon this.

I am a brown toned skin, 6'5" black man. My wife is dark brown skin. My kids are Black.

If I had "Internalized Racism" then I would have the proverbial "Self Hatred".

I might attempt to strip the melanin out of my skin like Michael Jackson has done. I might have a nose job to make my nose more pointy.

I probably would have married a white woman or a mixed Black woman just to introduce some more European attributes into much children.

For me to have "internalized racism" I at some point would have to accept MY OWN INFERIORITY if I were to be true with myself.

Instead I have completed my formal education. I have a good job. I am a home owner.

I even have the nerve to try and teach my chidren (who DO live at home with me by the way) some of the philosophies that my RESIDENT father taught me.

Since YOU only know ME via the words that I have written and you don't know me personally CLEARLY your charges against me are not based on any real world or substantive knowledge of me - ONLY THE WORDS THAT YOU SEE ON THIS MESSAGE BOARD.

Now interestingly enough you judge my "Internalized Racism" and by extension my supposed "hatred for Blacks" on my positions BUT NOT MY ACTIONS.

It has amazed me that Black folks who, as depicted in the movie "Hustle and Flow" who call Black women hoes and bytches. Who have them to prostitute themselves. Who hover closely to the drug trade to keep an exponential number of THEIR PEOPLE in a state when they are out of their right minds and not using their full capacities ARE NOT JUDGED TO BE IN A CONDITION OF SELF HATE. THEY ARE JUDGED TO BE VICTIMS OF THIS SOCIETY

This is why I asked Kevin the other day to MAKE ME ONE OF HIS VICITMS SO I CAN EXCAPE HIS CRITIQUE!!!! cool

You see NCONTINENCE - I don't feel the need to prove myself to you. This lack of gravitational pull on me burns you up. I understand.

The issue is that I take a look at the measuring stick prior to my yeilding to the measurements that it produces when it attempts to size me up.

The fact is that you and many other people are HYPOCRITES. You allow the people WHO ARE REALLY DOING HARM TO BLACK PEOPLE BOTH PHYSICALLY AND TO OUR REPUTATION VIA THEIR ACTIONS to largely escape with impunity and largely with your blessings as indicated by YOUR RELATIVE SILENCE.

A victim is humble about his condition. A VICTIM does not EXPLOIT OTHER BLACKS so that he can rise up out of the ghetto as a pimp does, a drug dealer does or one of the growing number of SAMBO ENTERTAINERS that are being produced today.

You know NCONTINENCE - the sad part about it is that THESE PEOPLE are not logging on to chatboards to have themselves CHECKED BY YOU. They are out there for all to see. The proof that they are doing the right thing and that any who stand against them are haters is, IN THEIR MINDS, the vast amount of money that they have been aggregating AND THE RELATIVE SILENCE FROM the NAACP and other entities who are quick to condemn a white person or entity for doing the same.

So you see my friend, when you repair the yard stick of it's dry rot that it has so that it is made both straight and of standard length I my have to change because you have provided irrefutible evidence of my being out of line.

Your measure of me has no FIDELITY or INTEGRITY at this time.

The real problem that YOU have with ME is that YOU, via your ARROGANCE and your IGNORANCE believe that YOU have the direct and exclusive link to what is good for Black folks and that any ideas that run counter to YOUR views are out of line because of YOUR beliefs rather than because you can prove otherwise based on any emperical evidence.

This is a battle of ideas and you can only battle using character assassination.
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This is inexplicably more proof and signs of the phenomenon properly articulate in the some what cliché "when America gets a cold, Black folk in America have the flu. Through our thoughts and behavior that is being manipulate by corporate conglomerates consent is being manufactured. The question is can Black folk be healed while still under attack, can we heal while surrounded by sickness?

I would love to comment more but I am short on time....

Damn Renaldo, Huslte and Flow rules your life now, you see one movie and use it every chance you get. Did you know that movie was written by a White man? Who understood that if it is to sell he needed a Black name and face attatched to it, thus enters John Singleton.
quote:
This is inexplicably more proof and signs of the phenomenon properly articulate in the some what cliché "when America gets a cold, Black folk in America have the flu.



I disagree with you on this one.

I urge each of you to spend an afternoon on foot within your local "China Town". From NYC to Philly to Atlanta to Oakland to San Francisco I can tell you from first hand experience that their local ecosystem in their own community has them less bound to the national economic cycles that you are concerned about. (Please note that I said LESS and not totally unbound.)

Someone also mentioned that during this same period of decline 50 Cent and Snoop Dogg have had their personal wealth greatly increased. upset
No one has ever mentioned external reparations being mutually exclusive to the concept of internal reparations or self help. That is a point that you keep reiterating, but have no evidence to back up. Moreover, I and others have gone on record stating explicitly that such an assumption is wrong. This reply serves as another record of denial.

I have presented the observation that you are a "projector". You are the person guilty of a mutually exclusive mind set concerning the black condition and future. Consequently, you project this to be true of us, because your frame of reference is extrapolation from your own behavior. It's kind of like the propensity of humans to buy a gift for another, while not knowing what the other likes, based upon what the buyer likes in a narcissistic assumption of what others "should" like too.

I have asked you on several occasion whether or not is was feasible, if not superior, for black leadership to have specialties in internal or external strategy to improve the black condition, if there is an internal and external component to black problems. Hence, there is no need condemn or eliminate black leadership with external strategy, but rather, augment their efforts on behalf of blacks with NEW leadership with internal strategy. However, that's NOT what you black conservatives want.

Black conservatives want the REPLACEMENT of external focus, ideology and leaders, with an INTERNAL focus. This is because they see the black condition as internally created, not coincidentally the same reasoning of the white conservative. Hence internal focus is what is needed to solve an internally created problem and why they view external focus as not efficacious when the problem in inherent to black themselves.

CF believes more in promoting the concept of CONSERVATISM, than promoting the uplift of the black collective. He is more POLITICAL than racially conscious. Hence, Conservatism, in one form or another, is his prescription for what ails black people, despite the history of white conservatism (the preservation and conservation of white skin privilege) has been the detriment of black people.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

quote:
This is inexplicably more proof and signs of the phenomenon properly articulate in the some what cliché "when America gets a cold, Black folk in America have the flu.



I disagree with you on this one.

I urge each of you to spend an afternoon on foot within your local "China Town". From NYC to Philly to Atlanta to Oakland to San Francisco I can tell you from first hand experience that their local ecosystem in their own community has them less bound to the national economic cycles that you are concerned about. (Please note that I said LESS and not totally unbound.)


I would venture to guess that most of the money in Chinatowns throughout America comes from outside of those communities and is not, as you infer, merely recycled within.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
This is inexplicably more proof and signs of the phenomenon properly articulate in the some what cliché "when America gets a cold, Black folk in America have the flu.



I disagree with you on this one.

I urge each of you to spend an afternoon on foot within your local "China Town". From NYC to Philly to Atlanta to Oakland to San Francisco I can tell you from first hand experience that their local ecosystem in their own community has them less bound to the national economic cycles that you are concerned about. (Please note that I said LESS and not totally unbound.)

Someone also mentioned that during this same period of decline 50 Cent and Snoop Dogg have had their personal wealth greatly increased. upset


Your Chinatown fixation is another example of your superficial reasoning. These areas are greatly dependant upon the white dollar or the incomes of Asians paid to them by white companies. This area greatest source of activity and revenue is likely is tourism, which is most likely to be white. To propose that these areas are some sort of independent self sustaining economic environment is BS.
quote:
If I had "Internalized Racism" then I would have the proverbial "Self Hatred".
NBA... I mean RENALDO... when you speak IN DEFERENCE about the White Wonders of Fantastic Sam's, you exhibit INTERNALIZED RACISM. When your analysis is steeped in WELL DOCUMENTED Whitism (i.e. your Culturalist "critique" which is ver-fuckin'-batim the same type of lunacy of the most RACIST White person... exactly what White Supremacists believe, in essence)... you exhibit INTERNALIZED RACISM.

Either you have a counterpoint to what KEVIN presented or you don't. Considering how you DON'T -- and how your Culturalistic "critique" is as it is (a not-so distant cousin of historically espoused White Supremacists notions) -- then the only thing relevant you can say is, "UNCLE!" Or maybe OUCH!!

But if you feel froggy, jump your weak ass on to this:
"If i were to believe that certain pathologies are particular to blacks, I would expect to see the same behaviors amongst all black people to the same extent regardless of socioeconomic status and that obviously is not the case."

In other words, your Culturalistic critique is inherently problematic and, IMO, represents what you have ACCEPTED along with your [White] Fantastic-ism from America's Racist and Stigmaticizing programming that says or rather uses as an excuse: That Black People's Problem Are Things Endemic To Their "Dysfunctional" Culture As Opposed To The "Pathologies" Being A Function/Reaction/Product Of American Society and, hence, RACISM.

Note To CF: Black Cultural "Problems", too, can be... are a Function/Product/Reaction to American Racism/White Supremacy. Black people don't exist in a vacuum here in the U.S. And FAHEEM raises and interesting question about healing. You obviously and curiously believe in some type of Vacuum Theory that is NOT supported by any facts or even your supposed practical considerations.

Hmmm.... By proposing your "Independent" approach/focus under the pretense of a CONTINGENCY PLAN given the presumed Likelihood of X, Y, or Z (damn, dude? Didn't you trip over my spelling?... BY DOING THAT you are conceding that Black people are and can be adversely impacted by America's RACISM. And, really, it should go without saying any phenomenon that can have a profound economic impact can very well "destabilize" a "culture".

Why is this missing in your so-called analysis?

Also, you exhibit INTERNALIZED RACISM when in all your searching for "BEST PRACTICES" you have yet to mention, if you ever considered, Black People's own rich traditions and history. Instead, you esteemed any and every "Other" and Not Your Own... and Not Your Own.

What else do you call that?

(PS: Fuck that Michael Jackson shit... That doesn't prove anything. I have just listed your problematic ISSUES!)
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quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

Your Chinatown fixation is another example of your superficial reasoning.


Yes, and it ignores the fact that people will always seek to maximize the return on each dollar spent, no matter where they live. It was a problem that even the great Marcus Garvey ran into. From "Marcus Garvey - The Official Site", (http://www.marcusgarvey.com/):

"As for the economic side of Garvey's program, it was doomed from the start even had it been conducted on sound business lines. It ran counter to the law of gain, that is, buying in the cheapest market and selling in the dearest. This economic factor is above all racial, religious, and political dogma. It recognizes neither color nor creed. Blacks will spend their money among whites if it is to their economic advantage; and the converse"
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"Everybody's worried about stopping terrorism. Well, there's a really easy way: stop participating in it."
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quote:
Your Chinatown fixation is another example of your superficial reasoning. These areas are greatly dependant upon the white dollar or the incomes of Asians paid to them by white companies. This area greatest source of activity and revenue is likely is tourism, which is most likely to be white. To propose that these areas are some sort of independent self sustaining economic environment is BS.



Noah your articulation hides a good amount of your IGNORANCE.

If THIS is the measure then we could also make the case the CHINA AND INDIA'S rapid development is to be dismissed since much of it has come from the WHITE DOLLARS (and yours are included in this) FROM AMERICA.

You make no damned sense some times man.

The fact remains that MORE OF THEIR MONEY REMAINS IN THEIR COMMUNITY than is the case in the Black Community

More of the retail outlets in their community are owned by THEIR OWN

If VISITORS come into their community this REPRESENTS a transfer of value into this commnity in exchange for a good or a service.

Could you PLEASE refute any of the above points. (or do you like debating for the sake of debating?)
quote:
when you speak IN DEFERENCE about the White Wonders of Fantastic Sam's, you exhibit INTERNALIZED RACISM.



Upon further investigation I have learned that BOTH of the Fantastic Sam's locations in my suburban city are owned by what I call "Funny Talking Melanated People" - A MAN FROM INDIA.

When the store first opened he had 4 White stylists working there and most of his clientel were WHITE.

About 10 months later he has 2 BLACK FEMALES working there and two White females. When I got my haircut on the Sunday that my primary barber was closed THERE WERE SEVERAL WHITES AND HISPANICS getting their hair cut.

When I go shopping at the grocery story a few doors down I see Black people going in there all of the time.

Your characterization is WRONG AND IGNORANT.

I would like to see the one Black female to open her own franchise. She said that she works at another barbershop cutting males hair when she is not working there. There is enough expansion on the Southside for her to carve out her own following.

The ONLY reference I made to race was the FACT that years ago there would not be INTEGRATED, race-neutral barbershops since the hair styles and texture between the race vary so. THIS BLACK FEMALE IS ABLE TO CUT ANYONE'S HAIR UNLIKE HER COUNTERPARTS.

If you are going to ding me at least be accurate and truthful. nono thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
quote:
Your Chinatown fixation is another example of your superficial reasoning. These areas are greatly dependant upon the white dollar or the incomes of Asians paid to them by white companies. This area greatest source of activity and revenue is likely is tourism, which is most likely to be white. To propose that these areas are some sort of independent self sustaining economic environment is BS.



Noah your articulation hides a good amount of your IGNORANCE.

If THIS is the measure then we could also make the case the CHINA AND INDIA'S rapid development is to be dismissed since much of it has come from the WHITE DOLLARS (and yours are included in this) FROM AMERICA.

You make no damned sense some times man.

The fact remains that MORE OF THEIR MONEY REMAINS IN THEIR COMMUNITY than is the case in the Black Community

More of the retail outlets in their community are owned by THEIR OWN

If VISITORS come into their community this REPRESENTS a transfer of value into this commnity in exchange for a good or a service.

Could you PLEASE refute any of the above points. (or do you like debating for the sake of debating?)


To an ignorant person.... many things don't make sense. Therefore, you finding any thing I say nonsensical could be from my statements invalidity or..... your lack of understanding born from the rationalizations of the ignorant.

The question is this: What percent of Asian or Chinese American national income is born from China towns and Asian businesses? To own a business does not necessarily equal or translate into prosperity and wealth, especially for THE MASSES, which seems to be your assumption. Go check and see how much these Asian owned business are making and how much they are paying their Asian workers. We are looking for ideas for the masses, not just for the few as supply of such opportunities is constrained by demand and if one increases supply without increasing demand, then they just eat into the others business and profits.

The truth of the matter is that Asian prosperity and high incomes in America does not come from them owning their own businesses, but rather, them being employed as WORKERS in high paying occupations. There are a lot of black owned businesses in Jamaica and Haiti, yet, these nations are still poor. SO what's your point?
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I think this is the right spot to put my message. i've looked all over the forum but i think this is it. Here goes
Posted 7/28/2005 10:28 PM Updated 7/28/2005 11:49 PM
Disappearance draws media's gaze
By Mark Memmott, USA TODAY
Eleven days after a young, pregnant woman who is black and Hispanic disappeared in Philadelphia, the national media are giving her the type of attention they previously devoted to white women.
LaToyia Figueroa, 24, who is five months pregnant and the mother of a 7-year-old daughter, was last seen July 18 near her boyfriend's home. Thursday, police searched a park near there for clues.
Sgt. Ron McClane of the Philadelphia police told the Associated Press there was no evidence yet of foul play. Melvin Figueroa told USA TODAY his daughter has never disappeared before. A local crime commission was offering a $10,000 reward for help in finding her.
Her story was updated throughout Thursday on all three cable news networks: CNN, Fox and MSNBC. Today, all four major broadcast networks plan to run the story on their morning shows.
Internet bloggers appear to have played a role in pushing Figueroa's case into the spotlight. Starting last Friday, Philadelphia-area writers of Internet weblogs, or blogs, organized an e-mail campaign and coordinated their blogging efforts.
Their message to the TV networks: Give Figueroa's story the same sort of attention networks have given to Natalee Holloway, a white teen from Alabama who disappeared May 31 in Aruba, and Laci Peterson, the white, pregnant Californian who was murdered by her husband in 2002.
When the bloggers' efforts began, Figueroa's story had been reported briefly by Philadelphia radio and TV stations and once by the Philadelphia Daily News.
Richard Blair, 51, who writes as Richard Cranium on the blog "The All Spin Zone," led the effort. He said he was contacted Tuesday by a CNN producer. A day later, stories started to appear on CNN and the other cable news channels.
To Blair, the issue was fairness. "When I heard about her, the similarities between her case and Laci Peterson's really struck me. And I thought, 'It's been five days "” why hasn't anybody picked up on this in the media?' "
Television networks have been criticized in recent months by commentators such as Washington Post associate editor and syndicated columnist Eugene Robinson. The charge: They report only on missing persons who are white, female and attractive. That focus ignores the fact that men account for slightly more than half of the nearly 50,000 active missing persons cases in FBI files and that blacks account for nearly 30%, although they make up just 13% of the population.
Michael Bass, senior executive producer at The Early Show on CBS, echoed on Thursday comments made previously by television producers when asked about whether they favor stories about white women.
"It's the story that drives our decision (on coverage) rather than the gender or race," he said. Bass said his staff heard about the case from the CBS affiliate in Philadelphia, "though we look at the Web, too. ... It's possible someone in our group saw it there first."

This is my take on things!


Something very scary going on in this country.

I have been upset for quite a while now, because more and more I see stories of disappearing Black women being put on the back pages of newspapers as being not newsworthy enough. More and more I see that when white women disappear they get the front page news, they get the news breaks and weeks of intensive coverage is spent on them. Stories of pregnant black women murdered go all the way in the back of the paper.


It disgusts me to see that when this young lady went missing, it took 11 days and a lot of harassment from bloggers before national news picked up on it.
This could have been your or my sister, and what distress would we have been in right now just by the lack of attention we would be getting from the media, in our efforts to find our sister. How sad must it be for her family and her child that she does not seem to be as important as Laci Peterson or Natalee Holloway or even the scam artist who ran away and led all the officials astray for a couple of days because she decided she didn't want to get married.

What scares me the most is that whenever a black person ends up in a bad situation, the press will jump on that item and speculate up a storm. They will call in witnesses or near witnesses, and ask random people for their opinion (as in the case of the woman, who happens to be black, leaving her son at the side of the Beltway in Washington DC. How could she have done such a thing, but she did and she ended up in jail while her son was put in foster care despite efforts from family and friends to have the boy placed with them. In another case where a white woman drove from Alabama to DC with 5 kids, putting each kid in the trunk for an hour because she didn't have enough seating in the car, not that big a deal, these kids were not put in foster care, they were sent to their dad while police questioned the mom who didn't have to go to jail.)

I have only been in this country for 4 years, but I don't think I want to be here any longer, because of how I see black people being treated here. The blood, sweat and many many tears shed by their forefathers and mothers was in vain. Blacks are still treated as second class citizens; they still have to make so many sacrifices to get somewhere. This country was built on racist values which still exist and will stay unfortunately.

How bitterly do I write, it is because my heart bleeds when I see things like that. There are so many wrongs in this place, of which the biggest issue the mistreatment of blacks.

As for Miss LaToyia Figueroa, I hope and pray that God will shine his light on her path and keep her safe from harm. I pray that people will find it in their hearts to do their utmost to try and find her and make sure that she and her baby are okay.

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