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old Ebony article with alot of good advice.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_4_56/ai_69653990/pg_2

How To Get A Man In Four Weeks Or Less - If You Want One
Ebony, Feb, 2001 by Kelly Starling


PEEP this. You walk into a club and see a guy checking you out. The Brother is fine and appears friendly. You make eye contact and shyly smile his way. Fine Brother approaches you and extends his hand. He politely asks your name and if he can take you to dinner next weekend. Flattered, you give him the digits and give yourself dap for landing a possible "do right" man.

Fast forward to date night. Fine Brother is half an hour late. He hasn't called. When he finally shows up, he doesn't even offer an excuse. At dinner, Fine Brother spends the whole time talking about himself. "Can it get any worse?" you wonder as you nod and smile at his babble.

Then it does: The waiter brings the bill. Fine Brother picks it up, checks out the damage and looks at you: "So how do you want to do this?" he says in that Barry White voice you thought was so suave. "Are we going dutch?"

By this time--if you're smart --you've realized that you caught a dud. You say goodnight and throw him back. Tomorrow is ladies' night. Hopefully, Fine Brother will take a day off from the club.

For many single women, that scenario happens too often. They meet men without a plan. These are the same Sisters who make plans to go back to college. They strategize for retirement. They invest time in choosing and buying a home. But when it comes to finding a good man, they forget to prepare. How many times have you heard someone talk about "falling into love" or "stumbling upon happiness." Experts say that choosing a life mate is too to leave to chance.

Some habits last a lifetime. But some people believe you can change your dating attitude--and find a man--in four weeks or less. A month may be too short to find Mr. Right, but if you follow these tips, they say, you'll definitely increase your odds of meeting that special someone. So pick up a calendar and start working. Your date with a good Brother might be just days away.


The First Five Days: Work On You

You take the first step toward finding a man when you take a hard look at yourself. What do you bring to a relationship? What are your strengths? Weaknesses? Relationship experts say you should determine if you possess the attributes you seek in a mate.

Author Myreah Moore advises women to get honest with themselves by making two lists. On one side, write what you want in a mate or qualities that are part of your wish list. On the other side, write the deal breakers or the needs you must find in a significant other to make you happy. That does two things: First, it helps you to be clear about what you're looking for. Second, it lets you know that you need to work on yourself.

Women, experts say, sometimes hold Brothers to a higher standard than they hold themselves. They want a man who's financially secure, educated, politically aware, spiritual, sensitive, giving and honest. That's fine, if you have those qualifies too. But if you're one paycheck from poverty and only go to church on Christmas, don't expect to land a man with a portfolio of stocks and a flawless record of tithing.

"If you want a man with these qualities, all you have to do is develop them within yourself," says Moore, co-author with Jodie Gould of Date Like a Man: To Get the Man You Want and Have Fun Doing It! and America's Dating Coach. "When you are what you're looking for, there is no place you have to go. You'll become a man magnet."

Brittian Wilder says to get ready to meet a good man, you must begin to resolve past issues such as old relationships, baby-mama drama and heavy debt. Also, look at your appearance. Are there ways you could be more desirable? Maybe a different hair style or more flattering clothes. Finally, evaluate your emotional well-being.

"Just because you're single doesn't mean that something is wrong with you," says Wilder, author of Understanding the Games Men Play (How to Think Like a Man). "The first step is to emotionally prepare yourself to get into the game."

Some Sisters suffer from low self-esteem. Society, relationship experts say, teaches that Black women are the lowest on the social scale--what Zora Neale Hurston calls "mules of the world." "Men have a much higher self-esteem," says Moore. "They are taught not to settle. No matter how they look or what age they are, they believe that they can get Halle Berry. Most women believe they can't get Denzel, so they take whoever is around. It takes a courageous woman to say, `You're a wonderful man, but you're not for me.'"


Days 6-10: Expand Your Options

Forget the there-are-no-available-Black-men hype. There are good Brothers all around you. Your friends know them. Your co-workers know them. Your family knows them. You just need an introduction.

"I truly believe what you think is what you create in your life," says Moore. "If you think all men are dogs, gay or that no men are out there, that's what you'll find. The mind is a powerful computer. If you think it's raining men, that's what will show up."

Tell everyone you know that you're interested in meeting a quality man. Assure them that you're looking for a new friend, not an instant husband.

Consider different ways to get the word out. Placing a personal ad in a newspaper might work for some people. Others might think about writing or responding to an ad online. "On the Internet, you can meet a lot people without wasting a whole lot of time and [without obligation]," Michael Brown, founder of Blacksingles.com tells EBONY. "How many times have you gone out with someone and sat across from the person and have nothing to say?"

Next, think about what activities make you happy. Do you enjoy hearing lectures at the university? Listening to jazz? Do you love reggae or salsa? Your Mr. Wonderful probably enjoys some of the same things you do. Another good place to try is self-improvement classes. Community colleges and local universities offer lessons in cooking, French, African drumming, horseback riding, swimming--just about anything you want to learn. Pick a hobby and keep your eyes open. While helping yourself, you can meet plenty of new guys.

Dr. Chris Jackson of Nashville's Conqueror's Church offers a word of caution, however, about new pursuits. Make sure it's something you really enjoy and not just a temporary pastime to land a man. If you meet a new prospect at a basketball game and then he finds out you hate sports, that's fraud, the minister says.

"If you're going on a prowl or on a hunt, that intention will come out," says Dr. Jackson, author of The Black Christian Singles Guide to Dating and Sexuality. "But if you go with the right motive, pursuing your gifts and talents in life, you will have to take numbers. People are naturally drawn to others who are living their purpose."

Days 11-15: Give Your Expectations A Reality Check

You've told people that you're looking. By now, you might have met some interesting guys or identified some prospects. Continue scouting for new friendships, but also review your list of wants and needs. Author Wilder says women sometimes fall into the trap of defining a man by what he does or how he looks instead of considering his heart and soul. "Your soul mate is someone who completes you," he says. "He enhances that which you are lacking. A lot of times men are overlooked because they are not driving an impressive car or wearing expensive clothes."

While it's important to go after who's best for you, you also need to remain focused. What matters most --his job title or his drive? For the next few days, work on fine tuning your expectations. What qualities are important and which are insignificant? Does it matter, for instance, if he works at a garage instead of a bank as long as he is trying to get ahead and celebrates you?

Experts say some of the most important considerations are finding a man who believes in a higher power, who will love you, respect you, is ambitious and wants to build a life together. But only you can know what matters to you. Don't apologize for your standards. Just make sure they really count.

Days 16-30: Get Out There And Date

OK. It's time for the fun part. You're in the home stretch. Get ready to date.

"I'm tired of hearing women say `I want to find my soul mate and I want to be in a relationship' like that's the end all, be all," says Moore. "[Many] men aren't looking for a soul mate or a relationship. They're just looking for fun. I believe that our biggest problem is that we're dating-deficient."

The average man, she says, dates 200 women before he gets married. The average woman, Moore says, dates just seven men. The author says that Sisters can empower themselves by embracing a "pair-and-a-spare" approach to dating. That means you should be dating at least three men at one time. Now, let's be clear. Each man should know you're checking out your options. Moore says Sisters should also understand that when she says date three men, that's just what she means. Not having sex with three men or being intimate with three men--just dating.

Women, experts say, also need to learn how to approach someone who they find interesting. You could compliment him or just say hello. Or if you're feeling particularly plucky, you could ask him out for coffee or lunch. If the man doesn't return your interest, don't worry--at least you tried.

"If you see someone you like, don't be afraid to make the first move," Wilder says. "Remember, we're in the year 2001. Men's fear of rejection is as great as yours."

Whether you do the asking or he invites you on a date, women should have no expectations about these getting-to-know-you sessions. There's no reason to worry about blowing it. You're just there to have fun and learn about the other person.

Experts say that single men and women should work on becoming friends and let a relationship develop naturally. Take your time in becoming emotionally and physically intimate. Having sex too soon can confuse you into thinking that this man might be "the one." Instead, keep talking. Don't be afraid to let a date who has potential know that ultimately you're searching for a committed relationship. If he's not where you are, that's OK. "Every man you meet is not a soul mate," Wilder says. "Some men may be a potential friend or a buddy."

Moore says the worst thing women can do is to accept substandard treatment out of desperation. "[Some women] think it's their last chance," she says. "They think, `If I don't capture this one, I will not have someone in my life.' That's bull. It's a wide, big world."

When evaluating a potential mate, check out his values, financial and family expectations, your similarities and differences. Look for a man who is interested in you and who will make a contribution to your life. It may seem like a lot of work, but making an informed choice will pay off.

"People who think they don't have to work at dating, I tell them they're living in a fantasy world," says Moore. "Just like you just don't end up [being] a CEO, you have to work at this."

And don't forget to enjoy yourself. Dating should be a blast. If you don't find "Mr. Do Right" in four weeks, don't sweat it. Instead, look at the upside. You get to continue exploring.

"Reading books and articles, that's the hard part," says Moore,. "It's the lecture. Dating, that's the fun part. That's the lab."

All right, it's lab time.

COPYRIGHT 2001 Johnson Publishing Co.
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group
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Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
honestly bruh, it'll get ignored cuz we agree with it.


Wow Radio, a total of five articles targeting desparate women. You are definitely on a roll my brother. For one thing, I never read Ebony, Essence, or any literature of this type. The reason is because often times the images and message represented in these magagzines are in fact designed to create anxiety and insecurity in girls and women. This is in fact how this industry earns its billions annually--by feeding off the fears and anxieties that they have created. Not a month goes by that I don't peep some magazine reminding women and girls of what they don't have and what they need (Notice most of the magazines target women). It's no wonder why women are constantly worried about getting a man, keeping a man, being prettier, being younger, being thinner, having more, having less, etc. because these parasitic magazine editors won't let them forget!!! This is why I warn women, especially young girls, to steer clear of such magazines and to very be critical of the messages that they convey. Better yet, DON'T READ THEM. Read literature that will EMPOWER you and edify your mind. This is how you will attract quality people in general, and not just men.
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rowe i think the reason these women's magazines focus on these topics is because that's what women are worried about. they are indeed targeting women, as women's magazines. however, the question is what came first the chicken or the egg? your argument is that women are insecure at least in some part due to these articles. however i think these articles exist because women are already worried about these topics. we don't need essence to worry that we aren't cute enough, or whatever. due to many reasons including sociological ones, we are already worried about that.

i don't think there is anything wrong with radio raheem posting these articles. aren't we as women always complaining about these very topics. women like to vent and aren't always looking for a solution. but men want to find a solution when they hear us venting. its one of those we're from venus and they're from mars things. i don't take offense. in fact i think this is radio raheem's way of showing some love to the women who are concerned about these topics. i at least appreciate that he's not pulling it out of his behind, he's getting these things from periodicals for women. which means he must be genuinely interested in researching and addressing a woman's concerns.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

I never read Ebony, Essence, or any literature of this type. The reason is because often times the images and message represented in these magagzines are in fact designed to create anxiety and insecurity in girls and women. This is in fact how this industry earns its billions annually--by feeding off the fears and anxieties that they have created. Not a month goes by that I don't peep some magazine reminding women and girls of what they don't have and what they need (Notice most of the magazines target women). It's no wonder why women are constantly worried about getting a man, keeping a man, being prettier, being younger, being thinner, having more, having less, etc. because these parasitic magazine editors won't let them forget!!! This is why I warn women, especially young girls, to steer clear of such magazines and to very be critical of the messages that they convey. Better yet, DON'T READ THEM. Read literature that will EMPOWER you and edify your mind. This is how you will attract quality people in general, and not just men.


A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y SPOT ON!!! kiss
.
quote:
rowe i think the reason these women's magazines focus on these topics is because that's what women are worried about.


Sister, if this is the argument that you are presenting, then my question for you is, is it the editor's job to exacerbate these fears? Should we read and invest into magazines that prey on our fears? Lastly, how is emphasizing, magnifying, and polarizing our fears beyond recognition going to help eliminate our fears, especially when you bombard us with images of people who you say that we should emulate? I once, regrettably, read an article in some stupid women's magazine that titled, "10 Ways To Keep Yor Man Interested In The Bedroom." After reading, I said to myself, "So if I don't perform these 'tricks' for my man in the bedroom, he won't remain interested?" I mean, the advice they were offering was ridicuolous nonsense.

quote:
i don't think there is anything wrong with radio raheem posting these articles. but men want to find a solution when they hear us venting.


I don't think there is anything wrong with the brother posting them either. I am simply providng a response to the content of the articles that I am reading, which in my view, is a little patronizing and cheesy. Why do think not very many women are responding???

quote:
aren't we as women always complaining about these very topics.


"We" are not complaining about not being able to "get men" in four weeks. I can get a man just by walking out the door if I wanted. I have no problems getting men. What "we" are complaining about is a epidemic that should really concern EVERYONE. A large number of Black men are overcrowding jails, being sentence to death, they are not in the homes raising children, not in schools teaching children, not employed with respectable jobs, not active in the local, national, or global community, etc. This is a COMMUNITY issue on which everyone should have some constructive input and EVERYONE should be working towards solving. This is not a "women's issue." Until we acknowledge and accept that truth, we can accomplish nothing. Therefore, rather than bombard us with a string of topics on how to find a man, bombard the forum with serious topics of concern that will help us rebuild our communities TOGETHER, rather than passing all of the responsibility onto women.
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quote:
Originally posted by SistahSouljah:
Good advice, but does that title scream desperation or what? lol


I realize that some brothers are only trying to help, and it must be incredibly difficult having to defend yourself and dispute characterizations that are so unlike what you are about, but we should also keep things in perspective. If this were just an issue of women finding the "right men" in the "right environment" and at the "right time" I doubt if these issues would span across so many different areas of African American life and experience.
quote:
This is a COMMUNITY issue on which everyone should have some constructive input and EVERYONE should be working towards solving. This is not a "women's issue."


I do agree with this. However I also think that whatever the motivation for posting the articles, it does invite comment and that is a good thing. IMHO it is rare for men to directly discuss their own personal issues upfront (unless it concerns you in particular), it is usually via a third party or at arm's length by some other means. Smile

I think men want to know how women tick as much as women want the same. It's the amount of energy to ROI ratio that differs between the sexes. Big Grin
.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
I think men want to know how women tick as much as women want the same.


Yes, you are right about this. And also because lately our discussions over here have mainly focused on where to get find good men, I suppose Brother Radio was only trying to post articles that he thinks would interest us. However, personally (and I can only speak for myself), my interest in this issue does not and has never centered on how women can "Get A Man" individually, but how we can improve the condition of our communities, collectively. In my view, examining how we can improve the conditions of our communities as a WHOLE is the only way that we can truly make available to the masses of women quality men and relationships.
quote:
A large number of Black men are overcrowding jails, being sentence to death, they are not in the homes raising children, not in schools teaching children, not employed with respectable jobs, not active in the local, national, or global community, etc. This is a COMMUNITY issue on which everyone should have some constructive input and EVERYONE should be working towards solving. This is not a "women's issue

appl
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
rowe i think the reason these women's magazines focus on these topics is because that's what women are worried about. they are indeed targeting women, as women's magazines. however, the question is what came first the chicken or the egg? your argument is that women are insecure at least in some part due to these articles. however i think these articles exist because women are already worried about these topics. we don't need essence to worry that we aren't cute enough, or whatever. due to many reasons including sociological ones, we are already worried about that.

i don't think there is anything wrong with radio raheem posting these articles. aren't we as women always complaining about these very topics. women like to vent and aren't always looking for a solution. but men want to find a solution when they hear us venting. its one of those we're from venus and they're from mars things. i don't take offense. in fact i think this is radio raheem's way of showing some love to the women who are concerned about these topics. i at least appreciate that he's not pulling it out of his behind, he's getting these things from periodicals for women. which means he must be genuinely interested in researching and addressing a woman's concerns.

tfro tfro
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
What "we" are complaining about is a epidemic that should really concern EVERYONE. A large number of Black men are overcrowding jails, being sentence to death, they are not in the homes raising children, not in schools teaching children, not employed with respectable jobs, not active in the local, national, or global community, etc. This is a COMMUNITY issue on which everyone should have some constructive input and EVERYONE should be working towards solving. This is not a "women's issue." Until we acknowledge and accept that truth, we can accomplish nothing. Therefore, rather than bombard us with a string of topics on how to find a man, bombard the forum with serious topics of concern that will help us rebuild our communities TOGETHER, rather than passing all of the responsibility onto women.


yeah Preach it, Rowe! Tell it!! bow
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
What "we" are complaining about is a epidemic that should really concern EVERYONE. A large number of Black men are overcrowding jails, being sentence to death, they are not in the homes raising children, not in schools teaching children, not employed with respectable jobs, not active in the local, national, or global community, etc. This is a COMMUNITY issue on which everyone should have some constructive input and EVERYONE should be working towards solving. This is not a "women's issue." Until we acknowledge and accept that truth, we can accomplish nothing. Therefore, rather than bombard us with a string of topics on how to find a man, bombard the forum with serious topics of concern that will help us rebuild our communities TOGETHER, rather than passing all of the responsibility onto women.


yeah Preach it, Rowe! Tell it!! bow


I knew you would appreciate that response Sister Frenchy.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
honestly bruh, it'll get ignored cuz we agree with it.


Wow Radio, a total of five articles targeting desparate women. You are definitely on a roll my brother. For one thing, I never read Ebony, Essence, or any literature of this type. The reason is because often times the images and message represented in these magagzines are in fact designed to create anxiety and insecurity in girls and women. This is in fact how this industry earns its billions annually--by feeding off the fears and anxieties that they have created. Not a month goes by that I don't peep some magazine reminding women and girls of what they don't have and what they need (Notice most of the magazines target women). It's no wonder why women are constantly worried about getting a man, keeping a man, being prettier, being younger, being thinner, having more, having less, etc. because these parasitic magazine editors won't let them forget!!! This is why I warn women, especially young girls, to steer clear of such magazines and to very be critical of the messages that they convey. Better yet, DON'T READ THEM. Read literature that will EMPOWER you and edify your mind. This is how you will attract quality people in general, and not just men.


i chose this article because it presented a good 'gameplan' for those women that are on a 'manhunt' [IMHO]. It finally explains how women can 'take charge' in their dating lives, a theme I presented at least three or four different times since my first login here. As a side note, I read more articles/books that 'edify' my mind, but those are more along the lines of my personal and business development [my chosen field of study/career]. I posted this Ebony article here to help those that my need it. I feel that many single Black women, who are seeking out lifepartners{not babydaddies}, are at lost in how to make that happen. This posting can help them. Moreover, Dr. Phil's new book 'Love matters' as mentioned some of those same thing that are from this article [as shown on the Dr. Phil show last week]. Hopefully, the transfer of information like this will lead to many more dates and new marriages. God Bless
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
I think men want to know how women tick as much as women want the same.


Yes, you are right about this. And also because lately our discussions over here have mainly focused on where to get find good men, I suppose Brother Radio was only trying to post articles that he thinks would interest us. However, personally (and I can only speak for myself), my interest in this issue does not and has never centered on how women can "Get A Man" individually, but how we can improve the condition of our communities, collectively. In my view, examining how we can improve the conditions of our communities as a WHOLE is the only way that we can truly make available to the masses of women quality men and relationships.


I was posting this article because I thought it would HELP the single women here. Black women have spent MILLIONS of dollars in the form of Essence magazine cover prices, self help books, Christian single's nights activities, etc...with little to no return. Many are miserable and have no gameplan at all.


I agree...Building a community begins at home. Building better families will lead to a better Black community.
RadioRaheem, your "advice" is only in the form of changing women. It neither addresses nor seeks solutions for the entire situation. Furthermore, the "gameplan" put forth is always in the tone of "Get those expectations down, Ladies! Are you really sure you deserve a man with ambition? Or one who's respectful?" I've already expressed how I feel about that.

You can run out there with a gameplan all you like, but if the Black man/woman is no longer recpetive to keeping together and creating Black families, valuing a Black partner, valuing marriage PERIOD, what are you really accomplishing?
rowe, it's not an editor's job to emphasize, magnify or polarize our fears. it's their job to sell magazines. rowe, if we as women did not buy the magazines, these magazines would not sell so well. the only reason they continue to prey on us is because "we" as women eat it up, and buy magazines by the tons with topics about how to keep and get a man. again, it's the chicken or the egg question.

then there's the question of balance. these issues don't need to be magnified, but there is nothing wrong with a man or a woman wanting to know how to keep their relationship strong. don't men's magazines feature articles about how to please a woman? should men take this as a sign that there is something terribly wrong with them? no. women need not be obsessed with the topic, but we are more relationship oriented, more home and hearth based than men. so relationship stuff will be read more often by women. men are statistically more likely to be interested in how to financially support their family and be a strong head of household.



not many women responding?that was because when you posted this not many had responded yet. but as you can see now, women are weighing in whether they agree or disagree. interestingly i find that when women really disagree with a topic, they respond swiftly and sharply to the topic.

"we" are not complaining about not being able to find men? are you kidding? this forum is awash with women who do feel that it is difficult to find a relationship with a black man. maybe that's not an issue for you and me, but let's not ignore that many women on this forum do feel that finding a man to have a RELATIONSHIP with is difficult. we could all walk out the door and find somebody to sleep with but a relationship is alittle more complicated. that's why raheem is posting this. women go into the mens forum and talk about how difficult it is to find a man too. maybe not specifically in four weeks, but that is a common statement on this board from women.


i am in total agreement with you. the issue is much more complex than "i can't find a man". however, to the single woman in her late thirties to early forties, it sure does seem to be the main manifestation of the societal issue. recognizing that it is a societal issue may or may not assist the woman who is looking for a mate and consequently a family in the near future. the focus should be on the larger picture, because in the long run it would help us all. but again, this is raheem's way of addressing the manifestation of the societal issue which some women find very painful. we as a community need to find ways to increase black male involvment in the family. for if a black man is a father and husband, he naturally becomes more interested in the community in which he is raising and educating his children. we've seen that manifested. so it does make sense to try to assist in helping to develop and strengthen the BLACK FAMILY. this begins with boy meets girl, so it makes sense to try and facilitate that event. i don't think the onus should be on women. however since we are the ones with the foresight to see this as an issue, and we are the ones who are most interested in knowing how to start a long term relationship, then it makes sense to give us some tools to this effect.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
RadioRaheem, your "advice" is only in the form of changing women. It neither addresses nor seeks solutions for the entire situation. Furthermore, the "gameplan" put forth is always in the tone of "Get those expectations down, Ladies! Are you really sure you deserve a man with ambition? Or one who's respectful?" I've already expressed how I feel about that.

You can run out there with a gameplan all you like, but if the Black man/woman is no longer recpetive to keeping together and creating Black families, valuing a Black partner, valuing marriage PERIOD, what are you really accomplishing?



With the current dating situation as described by many black women, i'd say a change is needed. Unless those womens main point is to sit and complain about men, they would probably benefit from some 'gameplan' advice.

As far as your point about 'Are you really sure you deserve a man with ambition?'...please read the section "Give Your Expectations A Reality Check". I think that is most directed at the Condi Rice looking women hoping for Denzels. It's nice to 'dream' for a good relationship, just stop with the fanasties. All and all good advice from this article, which wouldn't fly in Essence, because it doesn't blame black men for a black woman's sorry dating situation.
From that section, "Experts say some of the most important considerations are finding a man who believes in a higher power, who will love you, respect you, is ambitious and wants to build a life together. But only you can know what matters to you. Don't apologize for your standards. Just make sure they really count."


"You can run out there with a gameplan all you like, but if the Black man/woman is no longer recpetive to keeping together and creating Black families, valuing a Black partner, valuing marriage PERIOD, what are you really accomplishing?"
* with a gameplan, you will be[and here it goes again] taking charge of your dating situation, or like the article says 'dating like a man' does. dating predates marriage right?? ...so better dating would lead to better marriages...which leads to better families...which leads to better community...I know it may seem like a pipe dream to some, but it's all possible for single black women. Now, it's time to break the huddle and get out there and run your gameplan.

And for the 'respect' part of your reply, if you are, or anyone is, currently in a dating situation and are not being respected, take this advice and GET OUT NOW!!!
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
rowe, it's not an editor's job to emphasize, magnify or polarize our fears. it's their job to sell magazines. rowe, if we as women did not buy the magazines, these magazines would not sell so well. the only reason they continue to prey on us is because "we" as women eat it up, and buy magazines by the tons with topics about how to keep and get a man. again, it's the chicken or the egg question.

then there's the question of balance. these issues don't need to be magnified, but there is nothing wrong with a man or a woman wanting to know how to keep their relationship strong. don't men's magazines feature articles about how to please a woman? should men take this as a sign that there is something terribly wrong with them? no. women need not be obsessed with the topic, but we are more relationship oriented, more home and hearth based than men. so relationship stuff will be read more often by women. men are statistically more likely to be interested in how to financially support their family and be a strong head of household.



not many women responding?that was because when you posted this not many had responded yet. but as you can see now, women are weighing in whether they agree or disagree. interestingly i find that when women really disagree with a topic, they respond swiftly and sharply to the topic.

"we" are not complaining about not being able to find men? are you kidding? this forum is awash with women who do feel that it is difficult to find a relationship with a black man. maybe that's not an issue for you and me, but let's not ignore that many women on this forum do feel that finding a man to have a RELATIONSHIP with is difficult. we could all walk out the door and find somebody to sleep with but a relationship is alittle more complicated. that's why raheem is posting this. women go into the mens forum and talk about how difficult it is to find a man too. maybe not specifically in four weeks, but that is a common statement on this board from women.


i am in total agreement with you. the issue is much more complex than "i can't find a man". however, to the single woman in her late thirties to early forties, it sure does seem to be the main manifestation of the societal issue. recognizing that it is a societal issue may or may not assist the woman who is looking for a mate and consequently a family in the near future. the focus should be on the larger picture, because in the long run it would help us all. but again, this is raheem's way of addressing the manifestation of the societal issue which some women find very painful. we as a community need to find ways to increase black male involvment in the family. for if a black man is a father and husband, he naturally becomes more interested in the community in which he is raising and educating his children. we've seen that manifested. so it does make sense to try to assist in helping to develop and strengthen the BLACK FAMILY. this begins with boy meets girl, so it makes sense to try and facilitate that event. i don't think the onus should be on women. however since we are the ones with the foresight to see this as an issue, and we are the ones who are most interested in knowing how to start a long term relationship, then it makes sense to give us some tools to this effect.



well put! tfro
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
Are you kidding? this forum is awash with women who do feel that it is difficult to find a relationship with a black man. maybe that's not an issue for you and me, but let's not ignore that many women on this forum do feel that finding a man to have a RELATIONSHIP with is difficult.


Again, the problem with the masses of today's Black women not being able to find quality men has less to do with what Black women are doing (or not doing) and MORE to do with the lack of availability of men who are of equal status. That is a reality that my latest article "Relationship Dilemma" addresses, and is a reality that apparently you and Brother Raheem are dismissing.

Frenchy asked the question (paraphrasing) "What is the point of having a "gameplan" when there aren't enough available players?" For example, I can go to church--an obviously nice place to find decent men--with a gameplan, but if men are scarce in the church, my gameplan is useless. But when I go into the county jails and detention units, the drug-infested street corners, the drug and counseling rehab facilities, and the local bars and liquor stores, in those environments, I will find Black men are plentiful! My "gameplan" would be useful in these environments, but what is the probability of any woman wanting to establish relationships with men in those situations, if she is smart? This is why, again, focusing our "gameplan" on African American women is a mistake, because compared to Black men, African American women are doing alright. So lets move on to the real issue. The gameplan should and definitely needs to focus on, first increasing the education, job skills, and job training of Black men so that they will be prepared to lead families and consequently become more attractive options for Black women. Having a mission is fine, but understanding why the mission is necessary in the first place is important.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
Are you kidding? this forum is awash with women who do feel that it is difficult to find a relationship with a black man. maybe that's not an issue for you and me, but let's not ignore that many women on this forum do feel that finding a man to have a RELATIONSHIP with is difficult.


Again, the problem with the masses of today's Black women not being able to find quality men has less to do with what Black women are doing (or not doing) and MORE to do with the lack of availability of men who are of equal status. That is a reality that my latest article "Relationship Dilemma" addresses, and is a reality that apparently you and Brother Raheem are dismissing.

Frenchy asked the question (paraphrasing) "What is the point of having a "gameplan" when there aren't enough available players?" For example, I can go to church--an obviously nice place to find decent men--with a gameplan, but if men are scarce in the church, my gameplan is useless. But when I go into the jails, detention units, death row, the drug street corners, and the liquor stores, there Black men are plentiful! My "gameplan" would be useful in these environments, but what is the probability of any woman wanting to establish relationships with men in those situations, if she is smart? This is why, again, focusing our "gameplan" on women is a mistake, because compared to Black men, Black women are doing alright. So lets move on to the real issue. The gameplan should and definitely needs to focus on increasing the education, job skills, and job training of Black men so that they will be prepared to lead families and consequently become more attractive options for Black women.


you are assuming that all those 'extra' women are desireable. Very bad assumption. If a single black man [who is childless] seeks the same childless quality in a mate, 3.1 million single Black women are eliminated. What's the ratio of women to men after that simple math is done?? Love is a two way street.

Also, it should be noted that according to the US Census 2003[ http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p20-541.pdf figure6] that only 18% of black women have a college degree [versus 16% of black men], that's over 80% who do not. The numbers of Black women with degrees are a small minority within that Black woman population. It's not like you are talking about a majority of black women anyway, Essence would lead you to believe that the number is over 90% or something. How now do you explain the 'lack of players' idea in your class based dating system?? It seems like you and others in your camp need to go back to the drawing board for this one.

Still, the 'gameplan' helps because it is better than the 'wait and hope' procedure many Black women are using. A good man is not going to fall out of the sky or may not notice her when she notices him. Be active and do something.
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For the sake of this discussion, can we define "equal status"? This sounds like a potential booby trap in phrasing. Are we talking about romantic involvement or a business proposition? If a man & woman are supporting themselves (place to live, legal source of income, able to meet their day to day needs) alone and share common interests & values, isn't that "equal status"?
quote:
you are assuming that all those 'extra' women are desireable. Very bad assumption. If a single black man [who is childless] seeks the same childless quality in a mate, 3.1 million single Black women are eliminated.


Again, that is why the focus should be on improving the social and economic status of Black men, because 3.1 million Black women would not have father-less children if Black men played more active and responsible roles in the lives of their children and loved ones. All you have done is confirmed the point that Sister Frenchy and I are making.

quote:
The 'gameplan' helps because it is better than the 'wait and hope' procedure many Black women are using. A good man is not going to fall out of the sky or may not notice her when she notices him.


I have not suggested that women or men "wait and hope" on anything. What I suggests and have strongly encouraged all along is for all of us, as a community, to work together towards addresssing this very serious problem. And I do not believe that this problem can be solved with quick-fix, "Get yourself a man in four weeks" solutions. If we can take anything from the last Millions More Movement, we need to understand that this is not simply a "women's problem," this is in fact a crisis, an epidemic. Therefore, WE MUST handle this very seriously. Articles like these, in my view, trivializes the problem, confuses the issue, and causes readers to lose perspective. But listen, I just want to say that I know you have good intentions. I'm not trying to get down on you. We appreciate your interest in this topic and PLEASE don't be discouraged from posting more topics that you think would be of interest to women. I think that is great. We are simply having a debate, so please do not take anything personal.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
you are assuming that all those 'extra' women are desireable. Very bad assumption. If a single black man [who is childless] seeks the same childless quality in a mate, 3.1 million single Black women are eliminated.


Again brother, that is why the focus should be on improving the social and economic status of Black men, because 3.1 million Black women would not have father-less children if Black men played more active and responsible roles in the lives of their children and loved ones. All you have done is confirmed the point that Sister Frenchy and I are making.

quote:
The 'gameplan' helps because it is better than the 'wait and hope' procedure many Black women are using. A good man is not going to fall out of the sky or may not notice her when she notices him.


I have not suggested that women or men "wait and hope" on anything brother. What I suggests and have strongly encouraged all along is for all of us, as a community, to work together towards addresssing this very serious problem. And I do not believe that this problem can be solved with quick-fix, "Get yourself a man in four week solutions." I think articles like these trivializes the problem, and more importantly, they cause readers to lose sight of the real issue at hand. Listen, I just want to say that I know you have good intentions. I'm not trying to get down on you. We appreciate your interests and PLEASE don't be discouraged from posting more topics that you think would be of interest to women. I think that is great. We are simply having a debate, so please do not take anything personal.



I think we are talking about two different topics. Might I suggest you develop a thread topic about Black community development, volunteering, and overall Black leadership. This topic is about dating advice and those that need it. Black love is a very serious topic that is the basis of many other black community problems. I don't mean to disrespect your valid points [I actually agree with you a great deal] but I just wanted to post an article to assist those out there looking for solutions. God Bless and Happy Holidays.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
For the sake of this discussion, can we define "equal status"? This sounds like a potential booby trap in phrasing. Are we talking about romantic involvement or a business proposition? If a man & woman are supporting themselves (place to live, legal source of income, able to meet their day to day needs) alone and share common interests & values, isn't that "equal status"?


the answers varies from class, education, and status. I find it weird however that many single moms, i've met wanted 'someone on their level', yet preferred that he be childless.

Good luck finding the answer to that one bruh. Happy Holidays
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Do we know that all 3.1 million Black single moms wanted the children's fathers around? The question isn't presented to invalid your premise, just to round out the perspective.


Brother Ddouble, I want you to just for a moment to think critically about the question you've just asked, and then answer this question. What woman in her right mind would want to have a litter of children and no father to support her? Let's not insult the intelligence of Black women, please. If a large number of couples are having children without the support of the fathers (the other member who created the child), then we need to question what is preventing them from performing their roles as fathers.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Do we know that all 3.1 million Black single moms wanted the children's fathers around? The question isn't presented to invalid your premise, just to round out the perspective.


Brother Ddouble, I want you to just for a moment to think critically about the question you've just asked, and then answer this question. What woman in her right mind would want to have a litter of children and no father to support her? Let's not insult the intelligence of Black women, please. If a large number of couples are having children without the support of the fathers (the other member who created the child), then we need to question what is preventing them from performing their roles as fathers.


Insane people make up the dating population too! Wink

Seriously, I'm not insulting anyone's intelligence. I wanted to bring some balance to the discussion. RR showed in his edit that the gap in college educated (I'm assuming this is part of "equal status" (still waiting on that defintion, BTW)) Black men & women is much smaller than it is touted to be. I don't know if the stats are available, but when you mention single moms, you have to consider divorcees, widows, and messy breakups. These three catagories may reduce the number of single moms that wanted the fathers present.

I've said it in other threads & I think it bears repeating:
There are a lot of urban legends & myths about Black folk that WE perpetuate!

The dearth of suitable African-American mates is one of these urban myths.
quote:
The dearth of suitable African-American mates is one of these urban myths.


D, I've asked you this before, but didn't get a reply: When is the last time you were looking for a suitable Black man to date??

Your insistense on pushing this thought is dismissive of the body of knowledge that women who are out in the dating world bring to these discussions. You are effectively saying "What you see and experience is a 'myth', a lie, a figment of your imagination." td6
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
With the current dating situation as described by many black women, i'd say a change is needed. Unless those womens main point is to sit and complain about men, they would probably benefit from some 'gameplan' advice.


I don't think you're understanding how worthless it is to work on only one half of the Black population. Again, a gameplan will not help you unless there is a receptive dating pool for you to try it out on.

quote:
* with a gameplan, you will be[and here it goes again] taking charge of your dating situation, or like the article says 'dating like a man' does.


RadioRaheem, again, I can "take charge" as the day is long, but if the other half is not receptive to building a relationship, it's fruitless. If we are not both working toward the same thing or seeing the value in knowing/meeting/loving each other, the take-charge gameplan is of absolutely no help.

quote:
dating predates marriage right?? ...so better dating would lead to better marriages...which leads to better families...which leads to better community...


Better people lead to better dating. Wiser people lead to better dating. Not better/wiser women alone. bsm
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
The dearth of suitable African-American mates is one of these urban myths.


D, I've asked you this before, but didn't get a reply: When is the last time you were looking for a suitable Black man to date??

Your insistense on pushing this thought is dismissive of the body of knowledge that women who are out in the dating world bring to these discussions. You are effectively saying "What you see and experience is a 'myth', a lie, a figment of your imagination." td6


I don't have to date Black men to recognize that a lot of my brothers are quality people that somehow are not "suitable" for dating & marriage by the determination of (some) Black women. You make it sound like we're all worthless - guess all the good men died in our parent's generation... Roll Eyes

I'm not being dismissive - I simply don't agree with the assessment. Define suitable (because if I go to the dictionary, you're going to get upset tongue). This is at the heart of the issue. If you can't clearly express what you need & want, it's always going to be tough to get it. I will reserve any further commentary until I see "suitable" and "equal status" (or any additional criteria jargon) defined.
You DO have to be looking for a Black man to date in order to intelligently discuss how easy it is to find one, what is actually out there in abundance, etc. You don't have any experience trying to find a Black man. Neither you nor any other man is qualified to speak about what that experience is like. It is the equivalent of me telling you what it is like to lift weights, despite never having done it before, simply by looking around at people around me who lift weights. sck

quote:
You make it sound like we're all worthless - guess all the good men died in our parent's generation...

This is your own projection. NOT what I have actually said at any point.

quote:
Define suitable

Suitability largely depends on the individual's tastes. However, I would say that in general, a "suitable" mate is one who is respectful, and financially/spiritually/emotionally/intellectually ambitious.

quote:
If you can't clearly express what you need & want, it's always going to be tough to get it.

Not sure why you included that statement. I suspect it's in the same vein as your buddy RadioRaheem's. The problem is not that Black women cannot express what it is they want. That's not what's holding us back from serious relationships, trips to the altar, etc.
Most people that have dated have experienced having to find a mate that meets their standards. That challenge is not gender specific. I honestly believe a lot of men & women do not know what they need in a mate or how to make themselves appealing to the mate that will meet their needs . This deficiency is often masked with the lie: "There are no good men/women available.".

I'm still waiting for the list of issues you (& others) have with Black men - can't work on the "problem" unless it's defined... Confused

Have you ever had a suitable mate? Just curious...
quote:
Most people that have dated have experienced having to find a mate that meets their standards. That challenge is not gender specific. I honestly believe a lot of men & women do not know what they need in a mate or how to make themselves appealing to the mate that will meet their needs . This deficiency is often masked with the lie: "There are no good men/women available."


D, please listen to women re: available suitable men. There are comparatively few left who even meet a bare minimum of criteria. Tis no lie. Fall back and learn a thing or two about a thing or two. ohsnap tongue

quote:
I'm still waiting for the list of issues you (& others) have with Black men - can't work on the "problem" unless it's defined...

You're not waiting on that list from me, because you never asked me for one. And really, I feel like we've probably touched on that before. Primarily, what bothers me is a fundamental lack of respect.
quote:
This thread isn't the place since it's supposed to celebrate Good Black Men but I would love to see your full list of complaints against Black men (and men in general).


What part of this asks me a question? You expressed a desire.

And you have the balls to actually LINK me directly to it! laugh

Going to bed! In any event, I answered your question already in my last post. kiss
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
Are you kidding? this forum is awash with women who do feel that it is difficult to find a relationship with a black man. maybe that's not an issue for you and me, but let's not ignore that many women on this forum do feel that finding a man to have a RELATIONSHIP with is difficult.


Again, the problem with the masses of today's Black women not being able to find quality men has less to do with what Black women are doing (or not doing) and MORE to do with the lack of availability of men who are of equal status. That is a reality that my latest article "Relationship Dilemma" addresses, and is a reality that apparently you and Brother Raheem are dismissing.

Frenchy asked the question (paraphrasing) "What is the point of having a "gameplan" when there aren't enough available players?" For example, I can go to church--an obviously nice place to find decent men--with a gameplan, but if men are scarce in the church, my gameplan is useless. But when I go into the county jails and detention units, the drug-infested street corners, the drug and counseling rehab facilities, and the local bars and liquor stores, in those environments, I will find Black men are plentiful! My "gameplan" would be useful in these environments, but what is the probability of any woman wanting to establish relationships with men in those situations, if she is smart? This is why, again, focusing our "gameplan" on African American women is a mistake, because compared to Black men, African American women are doing alright. So lets move on to the real issue. The gameplan should and definitely needs to focus on, first increasing the education, job skills, and job training of Black men so that they will be prepared to lead families and consequently become more attractive options for Black women. Having a mission is fine, but understanding why the mission is necessary in the first place is important.


sorry, i didn't notice that article, where did you post it? i don't mean to ignore it.

supply and demand is a classic issue with all resources, including people and skills. since there is a general agreement that there is a shortage of brothers to date and marry then we need to do two things. 1) we need to address the social issues that put black men in jail, and make them otherwise unavailable to black women. 2) single black women need to develop a PLAN on how they are going to seek out and find single black men. yes, there is a shortage. but, that just strengthens the need for us to be particularly shrewd and smart about the way we seek out men. we can work on assisting black men. this will certainly help the next generation of single black women. but again, that's not going to help the woman who is looking for a mate now.
. . . unless . . . you are suggesting that a woman takes the "diamond in the rough" approach. you've heard of it. find a man with a good heart, and POTENTIAL. then proceed to help him obtain what he needs to be a good mate. for instance, i have relatives who have helped their mates with finding financial assistance for their education, getting a good job and have helped them smooth out otherwise rough edges. i call it "raising your mate". however, the only problem with this is that when we raise someone, it is for the purpose of them being able to leave home and build a life for themselves. i think this is especially true of males. many a woman has "raised" a man only to find that the man no longer wants to be with them when he's "grown" and successful. however, it does work for some women.
Here's the thing I can't understand:

Why are there black men who are well-educated, employed, etc, etc. who are just as frustated at finding a suitable mate as a lot of women are?

I find myself in that situation. By the way, I'm writing this NOT to play some sort of blame game but because I'm honestly bewildered. I'm 34 years old, childless, with a Ph.D., a good job, desires a committed relationship with a black woman, never been in jail or addicted to drugs, etc., etc. and I haven't had a lot of luck.

I go on a lot of dates that, for whatever reasons, don't go anywhere.

Anyway, I'm just saying that while it may be true that women don't have as many choices as they should have it is EQUALLY true that some of us men (who fit the profile of the "good man" whatever that is) find ourselves (mysteriously) in a sea of single women who are 'relationship-proof'

I've literally gone out with women who seemed determined to find something wrong (Are you on the down low? etc.,etc.), weren't satisfied until they did, and then won't forgive you for having a fault.
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HonestBrother -

I've asked that same question - it went without answer. There has to be something wrong with you - It's never a fault or rough edge of a woman that's the issue (remember they're perfect)! Roll Eyes

See the mindset & comments - "raise a man". protest If you are going in to "parent & smooth rough edges", you have the wrong attitude. Partners are supposed to support each other (educational, finances, emotionally, physically). You think only women have been abandoned after their partners acquired success and/or self-esteem? Let a brother say he was smoothing a woman's "rough edges" - he'd be labled controlling in a heartbeat.

Clip your wings, indeed HonestBrother! ohsnap
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quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
HonestBrother -

I've asked that same question - it went without answer. There's has to be something wrong with you - It's never a fault or rough edge of a woman that's the issue (remember they're perfect)! Roll Eyes

See the mindset & comments - "raise a man". protest If you are going in to "parent & smooth rough edges", you have the wrong attitude. Partners are supposed to support each other (educational, finances, emotionally, physically). You think only women have been abandoned after their partners acquired success and/or self-esteem? Let a brother say he was smoothing a woman's "rough edges" - he'd be labled controlling in a heartbeat.

Clip your wings, indeed HonestBrother! ohsnap


i did not mean to be offensive, i was just sharing a point of view. and yes there are men on this site who say that women are too fat have too many children, etc. so dont say that no one talks about women as if there are "rough edges" which prevent them from finding a mate.

and incidentally, i think that men are less likely to be left by a successful partner than a woman. sure partners support each other, but to completely orchestrate the success of your partner . . .that's what i'm referring to. if you couldn't pick it up from that post, i'm not exactly in support of the idea of orchestrating your partner's success to the point where it feels like you had to birth and raise him.

if you bothered to read my posts before this,you'd know that i'm in support of this thread, for goodness sake, and in support of black women looking at the ways they can modify their dating habits. trying the same thing over and over with no success is a bad idea. noone is saying women are perfect. and guess what? neither are men. . .

it feels that noone is really willing to modify what they do. if a black man is having a hard time finding a suitable woman, well, that is a bit unusual to me. the numbers are in a black man's favor. and frankly i haven't heard black men complaining that they can't find a suitable mate. well, like raheem says, you need to consider your physical appearance and if it has something to do with the kind of women you attract. and maybe you need to consider some different strategies for finding the right woman. are you putting off a bad vibe? do you appear to controlling or too whiny? you should not expect the right woman to fall out of the sky any more than a woman should expect the right man to suddenly appear.

to hear this is kind of a relief because a)it means there is hope for single black women and b)there is a common ground that single black men and women share.

sometimes the way it's posted here, you'd think that men are in a constant playboy bunny party while women feel their child bearing years are being wasted.
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quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
if a black man is having a hard time finding a suitable woman, well, that is a bit unusual to me. the numbers are in a black man's favor.


Unusual? Why? But I do agree that you'd think the numbers would be in the man's favor.

I'm not claiming to be perfect. I'm not - no one is - but, based on my experience, you'd think statistically speaking I should at least luck up and have a so-so relationship with a sister that lasted awhile. But that's not the case. There seems to be so much pressure in the beginning to measure up, relationships - even ones that seem REALLY promising with tons of chemistry and commonality - just fizzle out within a few weeks (or a few months at best).

The really weird thing is that my experience dating outside the race is actually much better in terms of quality and length of relationships. I've found that while I prefer black women physically and have much more in common with them, relationships don't have staying power. But I've been in multi-year relationships dating outside the race.

Go figure.

quote:

sometimes the way it's posted here, you'd think that men are in a constant playboy bunny party while women feel their child bearing years are being wasted.


I've never been to a playboy party. Frown

PS: What does it mean to be "too whiny"? I find this to be another dating hell: women want a man who's

"Strong" but "humble" and "not to arrogant"

"not controlling or too macho" and "sensitive" but "not whiny" etcetera

I.e., when the list is done, you can't win.
i know what you mean about the frustrations of contradiction. men want a woman who is strong and soft. they want a skinny woman but then complain when a woman only orders a salad at dinner. they want a woman who lets a man lead, but then complain when she doesn't want to go dutch.

too whiny? well in my opinion that really refers to a man who presents as weak, alittle to effiminate(sp?), unable to make a decision,unable to commit, complaining about women and/or the relationship, failing to take responsibility for his life and actions, he lacks security and confidence in who he is and what he wants. it's unattractive because men are not socialized to be this way and a man who behaves this way appears to be deviant. and women are not socialized to want a man who behaves this way.

if your longest and best relationships have been with women who aren't black, then maybe you need to accept that you are a brother who will do better with a non black woman. i'm not sure what the reasons for that are, only you know. but if being with black women is this difficult you either need to leave them alone or do some introspection about the kind of black women you are choosing. also you did not answer the question about your physcial fitness. women have eyes to see as much as a man does. no offense, but just as a man does not want a fat chick, a woman doesn't want a fatty fatty boyfriend. (all you PC folks out there who get offended by that- lighten up.) if you are having a hard time perhaps you can adapt some of raheem's advice to suit your needs.

good luck
quote:
Brother Ddouble, I want you to just for a moment to think critically about the question you've just asked, and then answer this question. What woman in her right mind would want to have a litter of children and no father to support her? Let's not insult the intelligence of Black women, please.


It seems like we are mixing two topics - dating and rescuing the black family. So everyone has made some valid observations.

I'll be the first to admit that there is an issue with the black family; the black men need to do better as leaders in the community and home, but I have to take issue with this statement. As Frenchy likes to point, there needs to be more emphasis on what men need to do to correct the problems with dating and the black family but let's not put blinders on.

A lot of women want to sit hear and preach about the "problem with men" and how it a SERIOUS problem and an epidemic, but like we have said, this issue is a two sided one. These women feel they are correct in their statement because "they have had something happen so many times in their dating experience or so have their girlfriends etc". So there MUST be a major problem with men.

And as it was pointed out, what good does it do to have a "gameplan" and there are no players or decent ones.

Let's say tomorrow the pool of available, ready, will, and able men was full beyond any women's wildest dreams, as someone said who said the women are ready themselves.

I'm sure from MY experience and may other black man, we could formulate an idea that there is a MAJOR problem with women – mainly that they are emotional and spiritual train wrecks. And just because they are "doing alright or got it goin on" in their careers doesn't mean that they are ready for a serious commitment.

I to have heard a common theme among men about women – that they carry to much baggage into a relationship and take their frustrations out on every new man, they are so "protective" of their emotions that the tend to be cold and unapproachable, they have children by different men, have no goals or ambition outside finding a man to take care of them and deal with their baggage, they don't know how or are unwilling to let a man take the leadership role in their lives (I'm talking about when married), they are plain old gold diggers and are only looking to get paid, use sex as a weapon etc.

So yes there needs to be more emphasis on the problems that black men face but that doesn't lessen the issues that women need to deal with because they are SERIOUS also.
tfro
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
also you did not answer the question about your physcial fitness. women have eyes to see as much as a man does. no offense, but just as a man does not want a fat chick, a woman doesn't want a fatty fatty boyfriend.


I was trying not to toot my own horn (I don't have problems getting a date - it's sustaining a relationship) but if you insist...most women tell me I'm really atractive - some might even say "pretty boy". I'm by no means at all fat. Athletic is probably a better description. Not slender but solid. Used to go to the gym 3 times a week (until about 2 months ago due to an injury).

I really don't think my physical appearance is the problem. Although a lot of 5'6" sisters want 6'+ brothers because "they like to wear those heels" and I'm only 5'9"

PS: thanks for clarifying "whiny" - I'm not that either

PSS: Even if I were butt ugly and obese you'd still think, on statistical grounds alone, I'd have better luck than I do.
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quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
Frenchy asked the question (paraphrasing) "What is the point of having a "gameplan" when there aren't enough available players?" For example, I can go to church--an obviously nice place to find decent men--with a gameplan, but if men are scarce in the church, my gameplan is useless. But when I go into the county jails and detention units, the drug-infested street corners, the drug and counseling rehab facilities, and the local bars and liquor stores, in those environments, I will find Black men are plentiful! My "gameplan" would be useful in these environments, but what is the probability of any woman wanting to establish relationships with men in those situations, if she is smart?


A NOTE ON THE GAMEPLAN

Here perhaps is my biggest difficulty with black women (coming from the Bible Belt). Us men are supposed to be either up in the church or in the prisons. Either Preachers or Prisoners.

But a lot of us professional and single brothers aren't in either of those places. We're living productive lives and we don't identify with the church. And so we're not there. But on the other hand there are alot of players and creeps (I personally know a few) going to the churches because that's where all the women are.

Much of my dating difficuly with black women has been due to my refusal to toe the "Bible believing" line on religion.

So as to the GAMEPLAN maybe it's necessary to also think outside the box and do something besides go to church or to the crackhouse?

PS: Not to disrespect anyone's religion, but you can quote verses about not being yoked to unbelievers all you want but I really don't think that the current state of black relationships is what God had in mind.

PSS: There are plenty of other verses which go completely unmentioned (like giving up all you have to follow Christ, etc., etc.)

PSSS: I'm also not in the bars, rehab centers, or liquor stores. I do Buddhist meditation. I love art and literature. I love movies. I have other hobbies too.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
HonestBrother -

I've asked that same question - it went without answer. There has to be something wrong with you - It's never a fault or rough edge of a woman that's the issue (remember they're perfect)! Roll Eyes


Again, you're projecting and exaggerating. No one has said that. What I (and others) repeatedly raise is the lack of any attention on what men's responsibilities/shortcomings are. Everything is laid right at the foot of the woman. Over and over and over again. Women are made responsible for the Black man's piss poor behavior on top of everything else.

Can't find a date? Something must be wrong with you. You're bringing it on yourself.
No one wants to marry you? Something must be wrong with you. You're bringing it on yourself.
Boyfriend/husband treating you poorly? Something must be wrong with you. You're bringing it on yourself.
Etc.
And then the same old list of "wrongs" are trotted out. "ATTN: Women, You are too fat/strong/weak/poor/rich/accomplished/uneducated/opinionated/shallow/etc."

It's irritating and obnoxious and one has to be remaining purposefully ignorant not to see it. I don't EVER say the problem is ONLY with men. Only let's take a fucking break from clotheslining sistas and pay a little attention to the white elephant in the room.

I don't have any intention of raising up a mate. I don't date "potential." I date people that I am satisfied with for who they are right now.

quote:
Issues have been mixed - I only advocate that everyone engage in self-examination. Somehow, that sentiment is interpreted as dismissive, condescending, and anti-woman.

How can you say that, D, when you support threads and articles and sentiments that speak only to what is "wrong" with women?!? Please point out for me where you have discussed what men need to do, what men contribute to the situation, etc.
You're right - I haven't started any threads about what men do wrong in relationships. I don't have to because at least twice a week, a woman on AA.org does it for me! ohsnap Our (men) comments are so one-sided because we are usually countering the one-sided sentiment (which isn't in our favor!) of the thread poster. I do occasionally exaggerate (just like you do!!) - sometimes you have to throw some chum in the water to attract the fish.

Maybe we should all just have a big group hug!!!
eyes kiss eyes

or some beers & shots!! laugh
yeah appl
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:


The really weird thing is that my experience dating outside the race is actually much better in terms of quality and length of relationships. I've found that while I prefer black women physically and have much more in common with them, relationships don't have staying power. But I've been in multi-year relationships dating outside the race.

Go figure.



I was reading this thread, and your comments........and prior to reading this........i thought to myself, that YOU were going to say this.

I agree with 'Little Minx'.

Brothers have more options, and they KNOW this.

They exercise their options, and then complain, when things dont work out.

No need to complain..........men are single, because they want to be. They all run after the same type of women, gorgeous, tall, nice body, etc..........but then have issues later.

Yeah right!!
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
I agree with 'Little Minx'.

Brothers have more options, and they KNOW this.


First, you have exactly the SAME option that I have with regard to interracial dating. If you don't take advantage of it, that's YOUR choice.

Secondly, your response is precisely what the men on this thread are complaining about: We say something from OUR experience trying to engage ya'll in constructive conversation and then a sister comes along and says "Oh no! It's not really that way. Here's what it's really like" as if either 1) I was a liar or 2) didn't really know what I was talking about or as IF 3) YOU KNEW MORE ABOUT BEING A BLACK MAN THAN WE DO. And then you wonder why you're single...

quote:

No need to complain..........men are single, because they want to be. They all run after the same type of women, gorgeous, tall, nice body, etc..........but then have issues later.


1) I'm presently single and I don't want to be.

2) While it may be true that I could go out and "hook up", I don't want to to do that because I'm seeking a quality relationship.

3) In fact I've been celibate for almost 2 years now because I don't like cheap sex and I'm waiting for the right person TO MARRY.

4) How do you know what I go after? Maybe this is your low self-esteem speaking? Since you seem to be assuming that I dated interracialy because I was seeking someone "tall" and "gorgeous". Maybe I met a short plain Japanese woman because we're both into Buddhist meditation and our relationship was based in a common spirituality.

You don't know. Do you? And you'll never know just as long as you refuse to listen.

I repeat: discussion becomes impossible when people on the other side (i.e., black women) come to the table with their ears stopped up and more destructive stereotypes and half-assed notions about black men and what they really want than any Kluxer ever had.
Honestbrother......

Constructive? What was so constructive about that statement?

I dont have issues with IR dating.......if thats YOUR choice, then so be it. But my problem is this.........

Why bring the sistas into the equation, if its YOUR desire to date 'others'. Do so, without complaining about black women.

As a side note to you.........ALL WOMEN of all races, have issues........so you, like many others will complain until you die.

Im tired of black men complaining.......and then throwing the issue of dating 'other' races in our faces. Im 22 years old, and i've already seen enough....


Maybe this is your low self-esteem speaking?

lol Yeah ok!!!

Just do you, and leave the sistas alone........believe me, we'll survive.
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hij

Wow! This thread has really veered off !
laugh

Maybe we should just create one thread for this type of discussion? That way, we won't taint other people's topics - remember what we did to Sandye's thread (I'm still sorry about that! sad)?

One question qty226 - at 22, why are you looking for a long-term relationship? Do you think that casual dating would help you learn more about what you really want & need when you're ready to get married? Are the college guys really that bad? Why do you think you have trouble meeting someone suitable? With your academic commitments, can you really sustain a serious relationship? No hidden agenda or jabs - just curious.

P.S. Substitute 25 for 22 & job for college - but I'm curious to see Frenchy's answers to these questions too. I just imagine men knocking each other down to meet cuties like the two of you! eyes bow Big Grin
I apologize if I'm off-topic. I'll say one last thing and stop.

I NEVER expressed a desire to date "other". I'm only saying that I have done so in the past. I think it's a perfectly valid question that any conscious person should ask: "Why is my experience here different from my experience over there?" That's not an insult, or accusation, or expressing a desire. That's the first necessary step in the effort to learn.

I'm still holding out hope of meeting a sister - who I find much more attractive than other races by the way.

If I weren't, I wouldn't be wasting my breath here. Please read what I wrote rather than the stereotypes you're bringing to what I wrote.

Again, sorry for getting off topic.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
hij

Wow! This thread has really veered off !
laugh

Maybe we should just create one thread for this type of discussion? That way, we won't taint other people's topics - remember what we did to Sandye's thread (I'm still sorry about that! sad)?

One question qty226 - at 22, why are you looking for a long-term relationship? Do you think that casual dating would help you learn more about what you really want & need when you're ready to get married? Are the college guys really that bad? Why do you think you have trouble meeting someone suitable? With your academic commitments, can you really sustain a serious relationship? No hidden agenda or jabs - just curious.



First, let me apologize for tainting this thread.....im sorry. Frown

To answer your question......

Its not usual for me to go days, and not see a black man on campus or in my neighborhood......so me meeting someone suitable is hard, because of my environment.

With that being said......I really dont think dating a ton of men, will help me decide what i want in a relationship. (Jumping from man to man......its just not in me to do.) Frown

Finding someone that is on the same page as myself.......a friend, willing to work at having a strong relationship, is what i desire. Truthfully, this takes time and effort......and a lot of men are not willing to deal with women, that are on this level. They love to exercise their options........and they have a right to do so. I just dont waste my time, dealing with these type of men.

Also.....lots of relationships are formed in college/grad school. If a man doesnt want to deal with my schedule and educational committment, while im in law school...then again, we are not on the same page.

Im not making excuses or blaming black men. I move on in life, but i dislike black men that have sooooooo many issues with black women.

It gets old!!!
We all got carried away & turned this into another Men vs. Women (or Women vs. Men for Frenchy Wink ) thread.

At any rate - I hear you. At 22, I wasn't interested in a serious relationship and a lot of women I knew weren't either. I think those are just today's standards - sounds like you may be a throwback to a generation or two earlier. I'd imagine you'd find some good guys at FAMU, but that is a few hours away. sad

I see so much pessimism on this board and it makes me nervous about our future. I'm generally optimistic about relationships, regardless of previous pains & wrongs (Yes, brothers get hurt too!), but that doesn't seem to be the general mindset here.

If we can't get along, who's going to birth & raise more beautiful Black babies? heart
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
You're right - I haven't started any threads about what men do wrong in relationships. I don't have to because at least twice a week, a woman on AA.org does it for me!


And yet, when you come into the thread you don't ever agree with said woman. Instead you launch into "That's just a myth!" "That's not true!" "Let me tell you what women need to do instead!" Confused

In any event, I don't give a rip about this anymore. I've said all I have to say. cool

hit (For old time's sake) hat
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
men are single, because they want to be.


?????? Although, the argument may be a little off topic... You are making ONE HUGE ASSUMPTION.... I hope all women do not think as you do.

I am single and would love to be in a good relationship with a good woman... but just because I am single doesn't mean I really want to be. If that is the case, everyone that is single (male or female), are single because they want to be since they can decide to enter a relationship or not.

quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
They all run after the same type of women, gorgeous, tall, nice body, etc..........but then have issues later.


Hmmmm ...check out some of the dating websites and you will see women have the same create the same standards... "must look good", "must be over 6'1""...to name a few.

QTY,

Everything is not a neverending party for men...trust me I know... because I am a man.
quote:
P.S. Substitute 25 for 22


I'm only 24!! hit

quote:
job for college


The job is temporary. I'm off to law school in August.

quote:
why are you looking for a long-term relationship?


I'm not specifically looking for a long-term relationship. Just a quality mate.

quote:
Do you think that casual dating would help you learn more about what you really want & need when you're ready to get married?


I have dating experience already, both casual and long-term. I think dating experience helps a little bit, but what I want and need change. I'm not someone who really goes through dating, adding pros and cons to a list that my future husband should conform to.

quote:
Why do you think you have trouble meeting someone suitable?


The Million Dollar Question. I have my theories. Roll Eyes

quote:
With your academic commitments, can you really sustain a serious relationship?

Once I was talking to my father about a boyfriend and how I had to be better about understanding that he was really busy and didn't always have time for me or time to do this or that, etc. My father said "People make time for what is important to them." The same way that I was rearranging my schedule to call him or email him or go and see him even if it was just for a little bit, is the same way he could've done the same for me. If the relationship is important, both people will make the time (and the decisions) to keep it going.
quote:
sorry, i didn't notice that article, where did you post it? i don't mean to ignore it.


The article can be found in the Dating-Relationships-Sexuality forum. The article received many positive reviews. Both men and women readers seem to agree with the research documented in the article.

quote:
1) we need to address the social issues that put black men in jail, and make them otherwise unavailable to black women. 2) single black women need to develop a PLAN on how they are going to seek out and find single black men.


Yes, I suppose I can agree to this. These are some good suggestions.
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quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Finding someone that is on the same page as myself.......a friend, willing to work at having a strong relationship, is what i desire. Truthfully, this takes time and effort......and a lot of men are not willing to deal with women, that are on this level. They love to exercise their options........and they have a right to do so. I just dont waste my time, dealing with these type of men.

Also.....lots of relationships are formed in college/grad school. If a man doesnt want to deal with my schedule and educational committment, while im in law school...then again, we are not on the same page.


I believe you are doing things the right way. A man may like the woman and enjoy her friendship but desires a romantic RELATIONSHIP. I do not know what the numbers are, but there are women that understand this and will keep the guy in limbo, as he is hopeful that a relationship will develop. She may or may not have intentions of turning the platonic relationship into a romantic one. There are times that she just wants the friendship and nothing more...however she won't tell the guy because she may lose his attention. If she loses his attention, then it's always "He just wanted sex"...not always true.

If the guy likes her, he may become attached. This IS NOT healthy and it is called ONEITIS. It happens when a guy (this can happen to a woman as well) has eyes only for one person but this person does not want anything more than a friendship. What makes the situation worse is that she may not want anything but a friendship but is actively seeking a relationship with other guys. This is one of the reasons a guy may not be willing to stick with a woman and...although there are guys that like to play around, not every guy is exercising his options.

We can all continue to play the BLAME game but it is not going to solve anything. Every time I read "a lot of men/women this" and "a lot of men/women that." I shake my head and spell/type out the words "ridiculous" on my PDA.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
If the relationship is important, both people will make the time (and the decisions) to keep it going.


Well said. There are cases where the man has to work around the woman's life because it is the woman with the busy schedule (work,school, etc). If the woman doesn't make time for him, it will be difficult to sustain a relationship.
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
if a black man is having a hard time finding a suitable woman, well, that is a bit unusual to me. the numbers are in a black man's favor. and frankly i haven't heard black men complaining that they can't find a suitable mate.


Wait a minute Sister Minx, you're suppose to be on their side! Smile
quote:
These women feel they are correct in their statement because "they have had something happen so many times in their dating experience or so have their girlfriends etc".


It is a mistake to think that only people having problems finding love and romance should be concerned about this issue. Everyone from the school house teacher to the police officers on the street have acknowledged and complained about Black youth lacking stable and loving home environments. I've never been "played" or "dogged out" by a string of men. In fact, many of my relationships that I have enjoyed were satisfying learning experiences, yet I am still very much concerned about this issue, mainly because of the profession that I have chosen.

quote:
I have heard a common theme among men about women – that they carry to much baggage into a relationship and take their frustrations out on every new man, they are so "protective" of their emotions that the tend to be cold and unapproachable, they have children by different men...


I was hoping this discussion would not lead to tit for tat responses. It is beginning to read as if some men are misinterpreting the responses made about the condition of Black men in general as personal attacks, when you all shouldn't. If you all know in your hearts that you are good men, and that you come from well-developed backgrounds, then you only need to offer solutions on how to improve the condition of other young Black males. Launching counter-attacks against the women is unnecessary. It also weakens the quality of the discussion. Brother Raheem has already acknowledged that the state of African American men in this country has deteriorated, so why can't our focus be on what can be done to improve it?
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quote:
Issues have been mixed - I only advocate that everyone engage in self-examination. Somehow, that sentiment is interpreted as dismissive, condescending, and anti-woman.


I reject Brother Raheem's insistence on making a distinction between Dating and Rescuing the Black Family, because when we talk about Black women, rather than just women in general, both subject areas become intimately related. Until we work towards doing what needs to be done to rescue the Black family, and more importantly Black children, we can expect the dating drama to remain constant, for the Black Family is the foundation on which everything (e.g., our education, relationships, and communities) rests.

Lastly, I am not opposed to Brother Raheem's providing women with practical dating tips, but many of the tips (and advice) given was written as if the author is either ignorant of or has decided to completely ignore the social and economic mismatch between the status of Black women and Black men. The author also encourages Black women to form sympathy relationships with Black men, but just a few paragraphs before giving this advice, the author advises Black women to "check themselves" to make sure they are "living up" to standards they expect in Black men. So evidently, we're getting mixed messages here. The author wants Black women to lower their expectations in one instance, but then raise them again in another. This not only confuses readers, it throws into question who exactly is this piece of advice serving? Women or Men?
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I was trying not to toot my own horn (I don't have problems getting a date - it's sustaining a relationship) but if you insist...most women tell me I'm really atractive - some might even say "pretty boy".


Brother Honestbrother, your situation is not representative of the norm. If you are indeed attractive, educated, honest, seeking a committed, long-term relationship (marriage) like you say are, then you only need to trust us when we tell you that, compared to Black women, you are in a much better position to find a mate than your Black female counterparts.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Here perhaps is my biggest difficulty with black women (coming from the Bible Belt). Us men are supposed to be either up in the church or in the prisons. Either Preachers or Prisoners. But a lot of us professional and single brothers aren't in either of those places. We're living productive lives and we don't identify with the church. And so we're not there.


Brother Honestbrother, I realize that you are merely making a point, but just in case you were interested in knowing, I do not identify with the church either. In fact, I am vehemently opposed to the religious intolerance that is supported in traditional church environments. The church venue was only meant to be used as an example.
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quote:
Originally posted by ronin10:

I believe you are doing things the right way. A man may like the woman and enjoy her friendship but desires a romantic RELATIONSHIP. I do not know what the numbers are, but there are women that understand this and will keep the guy in limbo, as he is hopeful that a relationship will develop. She may or may not have intentions of turning the platonic relationship into a romantic one. There are times that she just wants the friendship and nothing more...however she won't tell the guy because she may lose his attention. If she loses his attention, then it's always "He just wanted sex"...not always true.


I agree with you. I've actually been in this situation.....i never said i was the brightest person on the planet, and im not making excuses..............but i just didnt know, that a certain guy was interested in a ROMANTIC relationship. He told me, (after i didnt figure it out) instead of showing me....... Confused I was not going to 'assume', that he liked me enough to take our friendship to that point.

It happens, and sometimes its just a lack of communication.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Brother Honestbrother, I realize that you are merely making a point, but just in case you were interested in knowing, I do not identify with the church either. In fact, I am vehemently opposed to the religious intolerance that is supported in traditional church environments. The church venue was only meant to be used as an example.


I thought that might be the case. But anyway thanks, Rowe, for acknowledging my point.
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:

If we can't get along, who's going to birth & raise more beautiful Black babies? heart


Yes i know that brothers get hurt too, but hopefully i'll have an opportunity to keep a smile on my mans face (when i find him), and give him the gift of a beautiful black baby....... heart


This holiday season, Let us all be warmed by thoughts of domestic tranquility and beautiful black babies Smile
quote:
I was not going to 'assume', that he liked me enough to take our friendship to that point.

It happens, and sometimes its just a lack of communication.


Do things like this happen because of how and when we are socialized – in high school and college?

When we were kids we may have found ourselves in a relationship after only having a few conversations on the phone and after holding hands walking down the hall at school but it should be obvious that it doesn't work for adults.

Why is it that two people will "be together" but be unsure if they "are together"? Why can't or don't people ask a simple basic question – were are we in this relationship? Maybe we do need to use some of our childhood tactics like slipping a note to the person we like with the "Do you like me – check yes, no, or maybe question?" Big Grin

Why do we get stuck in these long term relationships and still not know "were this is going"?

How about just asking the person.

quote:
so why can't our focus be on what can be done to improve it?


And that's the point I was trying to make and why DO we have to play the tit for tat game?

I have to agree with those that disagree that men are single because they want to be. I know men that want to settle down and are looking for the right women. But the prospects seem bleak to them and the reason is that these women come with so much baggage and defensiveness.

So both sides have serious issues – it not JUST the problem that black men are dealing with.
how have we gotten off topic? i think everyone has been discussing their feelings in relation to the topic at hand. all things said have been relevant IMHO.

rowe;

LOL. . .i don't think i want to be seen as being on any side but what i think is right. . .but, in this case, i get your joke. . .just cuz the numbers are in their favor doesn't mean we can't do something productive to meet one. . .

to the married, the single, the angry, the calm, the males and the females, i have this to say:


HAPPY HOLIDAYS YA'LL! appl
quote:
Originally posted by MidLifeMan:
But the prospects seem bleak to them and the reason is that these women come with so much baggage and defensiveness. So both sides have serious issues – it not JUST the problem that black men are dealing with.


Here we go with the infamous baggage. And from where do you think the "baggage" derives? How did the woman get the baggage? You all continue to acknowledge the "infamous baggage," but you conveniently choose not to acknowledge HOW the baggage piles up in the first place! (Refer to Mary Blidge's latest CD, The Breakthrough, track #8 "Baggage" for a better understanding of how a Black woman gets her baggage). In any event, my interest in this topic differs from some other women responding to this thread. I do not believe that Black men are "worthless," and I definitely do not hold you as an individual accountable for the actions of every Black man, just as I hope you would not hold me accountable for the actions of women that you encounter. However, I, like many others, have acknowledged that there is indeed a problem in our communities, problems that clearly involve a disproportionate number of Black males in undesirable situations. That is not a blame, it is the truth.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
honestly bruh, it'll get ignored cuz we agree with it.


Wow Radio, a total of five articles targeting desparate women. You are definitely on a roll my brother. For one thing, I never read Ebony, Essence, or any literature of this type. The reason is because often times the images and message represented in these magagzines are in fact designed to create anxiety and insecurity in girls and women. This is in fact how this industry earns its billions annually--by feeding off the fears and anxieties that they have created. Not a month goes by that I don't peep some magazine reminding women and girls of what they don't have and what they need (Notice most of the magazines target women). It's no wonder why women are constantly worried about getting a man, keeping a man, being prettier, being younger, being thinner, having more, having less, etc. because these parasitic magazine editors won't let them forget!!! This is why I warn women, especially young girls, to steer clear of such magazines and to very be critical of the messages that they convey. Better yet, DON'T READ THEM. Read literature that will EMPOWER you and edify your mind. This is how you will attract quality people in general, and not just men.


You are on point !!!
Some Sisters suffer from low self-esteem. Society, relationship experts say, teaches that Black women are the lowest on the social scale--what Zora Neale Hurston calls "mules of the world." "Men have a much higher self-esteem," says Moore. "They are taught not to settle. No matter how they look or what age they are, they believe that they can get Halle Berry. Most women believe they can't get Denzel, so they take whoever is around. It takes a courageous woman to say, `You're a wonderful man, but you're not for me.'"


I agree with this above........
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
Are you kidding? this forum is awash with women who do feel that it is difficult to find a relationship with a black man. maybe that's not an issue for you and me, but let's not ignore that many women on this forum do feel that finding a man to have a RELATIONSHIP with is difficult.


Again, the problem with the masses of today's Black women not being able to find quality men has less to do with what Black women are doing (or not doing) and MORE to do with the lack of availability of men who are of equal status. That is a reality that my latest article "Relationship Dilemma" addresses, and is a reality that apparently you and Brother Raheem are dismissing.

Frenchy asked the question (paraphrasing) "What is the point of having a "gameplan" when there aren't enough available players?" For example, I can go to church--an obviously nice place to find decent men--with a gameplan, but if men are scarce in the church, my gameplan is useless. But when I go into the county jails and detention units, the drug-infested street corners, the drug and counseling rehab facilities, and the local bars and liquor stores, in those environments, I will find Black men are plentiful! My "gameplan" would be useful in these environments, but what is the probability of any woman wanting to establish relationships with men in those situations, if she is smart? This is why, again, focusing our "gameplan" on African American women is a mistake, because compared to Black men, African American women are doing alright. So lets move on to the real issue. The gameplan should and definitely needs to focus on, first increasing the education, job skills, and job training of Black men so that they will be prepared to lead families and consequently become more attractive options for Black women. Having a mission is fine, but understanding why the mission is necessary in the first place is important.


I was agreeing with you until you wrote this. Are you advocating that women do not work on themselves and that the problem all lies at undesirable men??? Don't you believe this problem is more complex than that. I see that both men and women work on themselves before they start dating and getting into relationships.
Again, my interest in this topic extends far beyond simply "dating" and "finding a good man." I am interested in how Black men's absence in our communities, families, schools, universities, etc. are impacting African American relationships and communities in general. Individually, everyone needs to "work on themselves," because no one is perfect in that sense. So making such a suggestion is irrelevant. You will need to "work on yourself" until the day you die, as an individual. But the important question is WHAT DOES OUR COMMUNITY NEED? WHAT IS PREVENTING OUR COMMUNITIES FROM PROGRESSING, as a collective unit. Where are the fathers to our children? Why are a disproportionate number of Black boys being tracked in school and placed in special education programs? And consequently, why are a disproportionate number of Black men filling jails and/or lowly positions of employment, and not institutions of higher learning? What do we plan to do about this, together? These are the issues that concern me.

This business about who is blaming who was introduced as a result of some people becoming defensive and feeling as if they are expected to carry the burden of shame for all Black men, when that is not what I (I can only speak for myself) ever intended for male posters to do. I don't fault Black men. I don't think they are worthless. I have had very good relationships with Black men, but I am still very much concerned about our community, especially young Black males in schools.
This thread went off when we made comments about anything other than dating.

The advice to the individual is important. It ultimately determines which collective units we choose to participate in. If a person refuses to acknowledge that they have issues to resolve (or need for personal growth), how can they can be a productive member of the collective? There has been a lot of "There's nothing wrong with me, you must be the problem!" coming from men & women in this thread. Consequently, it devolved into the normal gender-based bickering. bang
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Again, the problem with the masses of today's Black women not being able to find quality men has less to do with what Black women are doing (or not doing) and MORE to do with the lack of availability of men who are of equal status.


The unfortunate truth is that only a small minority of todays black women hold these levels of standards and prerequisites for men. If most black women held moderate to high standards for black men to meet, black men will conform out of paternal instinct like they did in times past. From the beginning of time, women of all cultures looked for men who were good providers first before bearing their children. Only in the last 40-30 years has black women allowed black men to continue his seed without marrying them first. This is the same time that government assistance seemed to substitute the lost income of the husband (Welfare, Section 8, Friend of the Court, food stamps, etc.)

Majority of black women today do not require a man to marry them, be in a position of a good provider or display characteristics of stability. The black woman has allowed the black man to spread his seed without getting married first, keeping a decent job or abstaining from criminal activity.

The complaints by many black women do not carry any weight because black women still allow and deal with the same issues that they continue to grip about. Many black men do not take the complaints of many black women seriously because they put up with it time after time. Many brothas will stop cheating when sistas leave the relationship instead of sticking around. Many brothas will become good providers when sistas require it before a relationship and children. Many brothas will stay out of the penial system when sistas stigmatize men involved in criminal activity.

Bad values, ethics and the lack of personal responsibility has made many self defeating behaviors and decisions seem O.K. for both sexes. Black men should not ever expect to be able to spread his seed without first marrying and providing for that black women. Conversely, black women should not allow herself to get pregnant by a man who has not married her and cannot provide for her.
quote:
Many black men do not take the complaints of many black women seriously because they put up with it time after time. Many brothas will stop cheating when sistas leave the relationship instead of sticking around. Many brothas will become good providers when sistas require it before a relationship and children. Many brothas will stay out of the penial system when sistas stigmatize men involved in criminal activity.


Is the Black man so morally and intellectually bankrupt that he is incapable of pursuing these things on his own? Must he be coaxed into these things (that are primarily to HIS benefit) by the Black woman? How embarassing.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
Is the Black man so morally and intellectually bankrupt that he is incapable of pursuing these things on his own? Must he be coaxed into these things (that are primarily to HIS benefit) by the Black woman? How embarassing.


That sense of embarrassment and shame (or lack of it) is what controls or limits many about the decisions that they make. Values and Ethics that are reinforced within families and communities are the tools used to either frown upon or accept certain behaviors.

For many of the simple (which make up most of any race), the instinct to continue their genes is the primary driving motivation in life; taking the shortest distance between two points to accomplish this. If it is not necessary for a man to have himself together to do this, then..............

Depending upon "people" to be morally correct is a mistake. All governments recognize this.
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
That sense of embarrassment and shame (or lack of it) is what controls or limits many about the decisions that they make. Values and Ethics that are reinforced within families and communities are the tools used to either frown upon or accept certain behaviors.
..............
Depending upon "people" to be morally correct is a mistake. All governments recognize this.


In your earlier post you seemed to lay all the responsibility on women.

Which is it?

(1) Men being responsible for themselves?

(2) Women giving men the motivation to be responsible for themselves?

(3) Families & Communities reinforcing certain norms for both men and women?

(4) Government taking the lead?

These are 4 different things and you seem to just wander aimlessly among them....
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Again, the problem with the masses of today's Black women not being able to find quality men has less to do with what Black women are doing (or not doing) and MORE to do with the lack of availability of men who are of equal status.


The unfortunate truth is that only a small minority of todays black women hold these levels of standards and prerequisites for men. If most black women held moderate to high standards for black men to meet, black men will conform out of paternal instinct like they did in times past. From the beginning of time, women of all cultures looked for men who were good providers first before bearing their children. Only in the last 40-30 years has black women allowed black men to continue his seed without marrying them first. This is the same time that government assistance seemed to substitute the lost income of the husband (Welfare, Section 8, Friend of the Court, food stamps, etc.)

Majority of black women today do not require a man to marry them, be in a position of a good provider or display characteristics of stability. The black woman has allowed the black man to spread his seed without getting married first, keeping a decent job or abstaining from criminal activity.

The complaints by many black women do not carry any weight because black women still allow and deal with the same issues that they continue to grip about. Many black men do not take the complaints of many black women seriously because they put up with it time after time. Many brothas will stop cheating when sistas leave the relationship instead of sticking around. Many brothas will become good providers when sistas require it before a relationship and children. Many brothas will stay out of the penial system when sistas stigmatize men involved in criminal activity.

Bad values, ethics and the lack of personal responsibility has made many self defeating behaviors and decisions seem O.K. for both sexes. Black men should not ever expect to be able to spread his seed without first marrying and providing for that black women. Conversely, black women should not allow herself to get pregnant by a man who has not married her and cannot provide for her.


I agree somewhat with what you said. But your post made it out as if women are responsible for the actions of men who CHOOSE to be criminals or father many children out of wedlock.This I disagree with. If a man wants to be a male-whore or a criminal, it has little to do with what women are demanding but his CHOICE to become that.

I do believe that black women- and all women, sometimes create drama for themselves by getting into relationships with no-good-men in the first place.Having high moral standards would definately help solve the many problems women have today.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Many black men do not take the complaints of many black women seriously because they put up with it time after time. Many brothas will stop cheating when sistas leave the relationship instead of sticking around. Many brothas will become good providers when sistas require it before a relationship and children. Many brothas will stay out of the penial system when sistas stigmatize men involved in criminal activity.


Is the Black man so morally and intellectually bankrupt that he is incapable of pursuing these things on his own? Must he be coaxed into these things (that are primarily to HIS benefit) by the Black woman? How embarassing.


Exactly !!!

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