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Far too many brides, too few brothers
BY DESIREE COOPER
FREE PRESS COLUMNIST

July 6, 2004



My daughter had just turned 13 when I got an e-mail from my good friend who'd been born in India. At a family wedding in Toronto, she'd spied a handsome 15-year-old boy who was "witty, with the intelligence of someone twice his age."

"If you ever want to arrange a marriage for your daughter," she said, "I've found her guy."

What? A husband for my 13-year-old baby girl? That was child abuse, I thought, Old World chauvinism and . . . and . . . possibly the only sure road to my daughter's happiness.

No one at the altar
Look around you. You see African-American women everywhere -- in corporations, in politics, in universities. They are self-assured, well put-together -- and single.

In some cases, they've chosen a single lifestyle, some having never been married and some remaining single after a divorce. But in too many cases, the choice to remain single has been made for them.

The fact is that if my daughter ever wishes to marry a black man, the odds are daunting. According to Larry E. Davis, author of the book "Black and Single: Meeting and Choosing a Partner Who's Right for You" (Agate Publishing, $13.95), there are only five marriageable black men for every 10 marriageable black women, when you exclude those who are chronically unemployed, drug addicted or incarcerated.

One in eight black men in their late 20s is incarcerated on any given day. And they're scarce on historically black college campuses. Clark Atlanta University is 71-percent female; Xavier University of Louisiana in New Orleans is 70-percent female and Howard University in Washington, D.C.,is 64-percent female.

Black women, then, must consider alternatives if they wish to experience marriage. Interracial marriage is an obvious option. But according to the U.S. Census Bureau, there were 311,000 black-white married couples in the United States in 1997, but two-thirds of them consisted of a black husband and a white wife.

For black women, that's the unkindest cut of all. Not only are there very few eligible black men, but nearly 12 percent of black men who are married don't choose black women -- and, for the most part, men of other races didn't chose them, either.

The reasons vary. I've heard black men complain that black women are more combative, domineering and critical than other women -- a phenomenon which, if true, may be the less-heralded result of the pervasiveness of female-headed households in the black community.

Others have complained that too many black women are more concerned about the contents of a man's wallet than the content of his character. And, of course, there's the age-old reason why black women are often passed over as mates in general: In a society still flush with racism, the brass ring of marriage is having a white woman as a bride.

Making a match
So what is a black girl to do? Black-interest magazines have been suggesting for years that black women should share men, change their views about who qualifies as marriageable or be open to redefined roles in a male-female relationship. I don't know what the future holds for my daughter, but suddenly, the idea of an arranged marriage seems like a credible option.

I e-mailed my friend with my daughter's particulars, to which she replied, "Now, we just wait."

As the mother of an African-American daughter, that's all I can do -- wait and pray.

© MBM

Original Post
very interesting article, with several huge holes in it. I have few questions/comments...

are those young women amrriage minded from an early age...or are they in a home with a single mom shouting 'black men aint shit!!' daily??

do those women in the 5 blk men 'marriageable' to 10 blk women stat, have kids?? attitudes issues?? obesity?? [or other non-attractiveness qualities???] [MEN ARE VISUAL] those are some of my concerns when I think about marriage to any color woman. too often, black women have problems understanding their 'rank' among the single, desireable menfolk that they desire.

Black colleges have very high priced tuition/expenses and black families are frequently underpaid. They also provide very little money for scholarships, academic or athletic. [one of the main reasons I chose Georgetown University over Howard/FAMU/Morehouse or NCAT - GU was free for me and provided me with internships and turned into straight cash and resume items i could list in the job market!!!]] Leading many blk males to choose the military to pay for college [http://www.maec.org/stats.html blk males get a slightly higher SAT avg SAT score than blk females. They seem to start at the same or similar 'start line']. My suggest for those blk women who are SERIOUSLY looking for dates, look at the men in the ROTC or general military pops for dates/husbands...that's where many IR couples form with blk men and 'other'...most military bases I have gone to have 'single's parties' regularly, esp. during the winter holidays...check it out Smile. I think one issue 'ignored' in that article is the young black female's love for 'throwaway' relationships, namely in their early twenties. This frequently leads to Out of wedlock births [which may and often blocks her ability to attract men she desires later in life, i.e. professional/educateed blk men]..maybe facts like that didnt make the final edit for 'space' reasons Smile

glad to see that they included the price of the book author they quoted...pimping aint easy

what is an arranged marriage going to do for her daughter?? maybe single blk moms need to have mentors for blk males [if the dad that they selected for their kids is not around] Raising better sons and daughters...two parents are better than one

'12% of black men do not choose black women' marriage is a first come, first serve basis / process of elimination deal...you cant expect a bruh to wait until a blk woman gets off of her Suge Knight fetish to someday 'wakeup' to reality. I think men are more likely to marry women that they are dating when they are developing/growing...not, let's say, after his law school graduation. Men know, that we are not dating/ marrying a woman, more so, we are dating her situation. if she got three kids under the age of ten and we marry, guess what??? I AM GOING TO BE LIVING WITH HER KIDS AND RAISING THEM!!! common sense, isn't common

that's all...i'm out


love respect and protect the black woman !!! angel
quote:
The reasons vary. I've heard black men complain that black women are more combative, domineering and critical than other women -- a phenomenon which, if true, may be the less-heralded result of the pervasiveness of female-headed households in the black community.


Just because we DEMAND respect (well, some of us) we have to be all that? Whew, what a generalized notion; not to mention stereotype. What about what the so-called SINGLE brothers are doing out there????


quote:
Black-interest magazines have been suggesting for years that black women should share men


See, that's the problem RIGHT there! A lot of us need to learn a difference in being ALONE and being LONELY. Men know that there are many women out that that don't mind sharing. But, if sisters were to get their minds right, maybe the brothers would stop tripping.


I feel that it's just a fundamental disrespect that people have for others. People just don't take relationships seriously anymore. There's just too much "sharing" going around out there.
to the issue of arranged marriage. . .that's interesting. i was recently talking to someone about this. if it's done in a respectful and reasonable way, perhaps it's not a bad idea. since we as black folk have such a hard time coupling up, then maybe it should be considered. a young woman and man who know that there is someone waiting for them behaves differently than a young person who doesn't know when and if they are ever going to meet the right person.

most cultures doing arranged marriages do more of an informal thing where parents introduce their children to a potential mate and then let the kids decide if they like each other. that's really no different from what parents do anyway, is it? parental guidance is not a bad idea since our parents would probably choose someone better than what they had or someone they feel will be good for us.

i know it wasn't the point of the post and all, but it happened to be a topic i have some interest in at this point. thought i'd comment on that since i've too often gotten into the debate on other threads about what's wrong between black men and women. brosmile
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Making a match
So what is a black girl to do? Black-interest magazines have been suggesting for years that black women should share men, change their views about who qualifies as marriageable or be open to redefined roles in a male-female relationship. I don't know what the future holds for my daughter, but suddenly, the idea of an arranged marriage seems like a credible option.

I e-mailed my friend with my daughter's particulars, to which she replied, "Now, we just wait."

As the mother of an African-American daughter, that's all I can do -- wait and pray.


little minx I remember making a case for marrying our children young and in arranged marriages as a SOLUTION to promiscuity, single parenting and the problem with our women not finding husbands. I left the discussion because my views was like riding against a pack mentality. I am glad this idea is being seen as a way forward by some and hopefully would catch on. By the way marrying girls off at a young age and arranged marriages has always played a huge role in how people marry in Arab Africa and black West African history. We We have a low divorce rate, so we might be doing something right.

I am a strong advocate to the the fact that if you allow people to have sex free of marriage, many would choose sex and shun the responsibilities that come with marriage and the result is what we see is destroying the black family in the western societies. So to takeaway this selfish trait I say marry them off young under the guidance of the parents.

If you are interested you can find the thread I mentioned here
i guess it really depends on your relationship with your parent and whether or not they really know who you are.

if you are able to reveal all parts of yourself with your parents and they know you well enough, and you get along well, i'd imagine the chances of them picking a mate for you would be fine.

these young folks who have no clue what's really important in a relationship would benefit from the wisdom of their parents who have been through it all and know what's really important.

but i guess that's just my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by little minx:
these young folks who have no clue what's really important in a relationship would benefit from the wisdom of their parents who have been through it all and know what's really important.

but i guess that's just my opinion.
Excellent point. One could say this is why arranged marriages work better . Any parent wants the best for their child and parents demonstrate this in every aspect of their child's growing life. It is sad that when it comes to the most crucial issue to prepare the child to fly the nest, many think the parents should be left out of the equation. With a parent involved you can bet that whomever they pick for their son or daughter to marry would be the best there is in the neighborhood.

Something else that works in favor of arranged marriages is because the parents are involved and get to know each other before approving the marriage the resultant marriage is not just between the young couple but the two families actually become united as a family. This creates a strong core that binds the marriage and helps to smooth out any future problems in the couple's lives.
I wouldn't cry if arranged marriages were more en vogue.

Not because of any man shortage or whatever, but I'm not sure how different it would be. People are already giving their "friendly nudges" in every which direction. . .And their suggestions aren't half bad.

After all, the arrangers have a vested interest in you. They aren't going to try to hook you up with someone they find questionable.

I like having my choice, which I suppose is why suggestions aren't taken.

But, so long as the arrangers' and arrangeds' motive is compatibility and relationship rather than money (dowries or what have you), and the arranged are able to accept or decline, I think arranged marriages could work in nearly any society.

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
One in eight black men in their late 20s is incarcerated on any given day.


Is that true?

I don't think so.

I don't think there are enough prisons to house one in eight men at that age.

There supposedly is a huge Black man shortage in the most populous Black cities, however.

Something like 36% more Black women than Black men in NYC.

30 percent more Black women than Black men in Baltimore. And I think DC is supposedly similar.

At least that's what an editorial said.

Dunno.
Blame GOD.


There will always be more women born than men. That's because men are supposed to have multiple wives.

If every man married ONE woman, 4 out of 5 women would never have a husband. And, it gets deeper than that because men kill so many men in disputes, wars, etc.

And, other males are not suitable for other reasons - like homosexuality, etc.

Like y'all say "The good ones are already taken" - you damn right, good men are a commodity AND a rarity. Some selfish sista has him all to herself.

Whenever I ask sistas how they feel about the fact that if every man had one woman, many would NEVER have a man.

They always say "That's THEIR problem".

But, I decided that it was actually MY problem and I started doing something about it...
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:

do those women in the 5 blk men 'marriageable' to 10 blk women stat, have kids?? attitudes issues?? obesity?? [or other non-attractiveness qualities???] [MEN ARE VISUAL] those are some of my concerns when I think about marriage to any color woman. too often, black women have problems understanding their 'rank' among the single, desireable menfolk that they desire.

What the... Confusedall those qualities can be said of Black men... women are visual too, although we may not be as visual... and having children or being obese may not be an "unattractive" quality. That depends on the man. He may have a child of his own, or he may enjoy a plump sister...believe me many do. And where I rank? ek Like all black men are some extinct fine specimen of mankind. The marriagable ones have issues like all humans do.


I think one issue 'ignored' in that article is the young black female's love for 'throwaway' relationships, namely in their early twenties. This frequently leads to Out of wedlock births [which may and often blocks her ability to attract men she desires later in life, i.e. professional/educateed blk men]..maybe facts like that didnt make the final edit for 'space' reasons Smile

In my early twenties I was searching for a stable partner...not a throw away relationship. It was men my age who taught me they weren't interested in that. And my FATHER who lived with us wasn't a nurturing father because his father wasn't. And my mother isn't doctor Phil so she didn't see that coming. So much for her super-hero powers of selection. So girls find their self worth from their fathers. Which may lead to the so called throw away relationships you speak of. They don't know how to be loved or love someone else.



'12% of black men do not choose black women' marriage is a first come, first serve basis / process of elimination deal...you cant expect a bruh to wait until a blk woman gets off of her Suge Knight fetish to someday 'wakeup' to reality. I think men are more likely to marry women that they are dating when they are developing/growing...not, let's say, after his law school graduation. Men know, that we are not dating/ marrying a woman, more so, we are dating her situation.

Men while in college are doing what they want to do, what they've always wanted to do. And marriage isn't always one of them. Many men marry a woman they can trust, one who is supportive, calm, strong yet soft, and positive. One who is intelligent, confident but not domineering, and one who already has a lot going on for herself. But of my freinds who went to college with me they weren't getting married.

And what is so fly about Suge Knight? Isn't he a coldhearted murderer who terrified the artists on his label?

quote:
Originally posted by El Tigre:
Blame GOD.


There will always be more women born than men. That's because men are supposed to have multiple wives.

If every man married ONE woman, 4 out of 5 women would never have a husband. And, it gets deeper than that because men kill so many men in disputes, wars, etc.

And, other males are not suitable for other reasons - like homosexuality, etc.

Like y'all say "The good ones are already taken" - you damn right, good men are a commodity AND a rarity. Some selfish sista has him all to herself.

Whenever I ask sistas how they feel about the fact that if every man had one woman, many would NEVER have a man.

They always say "That's THEIR problem".

But, I decided that it was actually MY problem and I started doing something about it...


Like being an asshole who is so full of himself that he can't distinguish reality from his infantile fantasies? In another thread "El Tigre," I read you comparing women to dogs. I can't imagine one woman, never mind multiple women, finding you attractive! Apparently, you have a lot of growing up to do, and I doubt that anyone in a forum that has been designed for the purpose of having intelligent discussions will take your posts seriously. Consider yourself "lucky" that I even took the time to respond to this junk.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by El Tigre:
Blame GOD.

There will always be more women born than men. That's because men are supposed to have multiple wives.
LOL

quote:
If every man married ONE woman, 4 out of 5 women would never have a husband. And, it gets deeper than that because men kill so many men in disputes, wars, etc.


Hmm that would mean that there is one male living for every 5 females living. And by your terms, it's even worse than that, because of murder, war, etc.

quote:
And, other males are not suitable for other reasons - like homosexuality, etc.


I'm so sick of this nonsense... the number of homosexual men would be offset by the homosexual women. And there are plenty of "unsuitable" women out there for other reasons, who would off set many of the "unsuitable" men. The idea that society produces a number of unsuitable members of one gender, but not of the other, doesn't make any sense, and is not borne out by reality.
quote:
I read you comparing women to dogs.


Oh, no! The 'Sweaty Vagina Of Justice' is after me!


What a loser...

You need to learn how to read, Ms. Sweaty. I DID NOT compare women to dogs - I said I don't need a woman with a degree anymore than I need a dog with a degree - that's not what I need from them.

Then, I went on to explain what I needed from my dog and what I needed from my woman.

You're just an unhappy and probably unattractive vagina. Your insults mean little to me - you're just p*ssy to me - p*ssy I don't even want...
quote:
Originally posted by El Tigre:
quote:
I read you comparing women to dogs.


Oh, no! The 'Sweaty Vagina Of Justice' is after me!


What a loser...

You need to learn how to read, Ms. Sweaty. I DID NOT compare women to dogs - I said I don't need a woman with a degree anymore than I need a dog with a degree - that's not what I need from them.

Then, I went on to explain what I needed from my dog and what I needed from my woman.

You're just an unhappy and probably unattractive vagina. Your insults mean little to me - you're just p*ssy to me - p*ssy I don't even want...


Wow, what revolutionary balance. You should be a rapper! Why so hostile?
quote:
Originally posted by El Tigre:
quote:
I read you comparing women to dogs.


Oh, no! The 'Sweaty Vagina Of Justice' is after me!


What a loser...

You need to learn how to read, Ms. Sweaty. I DID NOT compare women to dogs - I said I don't need a woman with a degree anymore than I need a dog with a degree - that's not what I need from them.

Then, I went on to explain what I needed from my dog and what I needed from my woman.

You're just an unhappy and probably unattractive vagina. Your insults mean little to me - you're just p*ssy to me - p*ssy I don't even want...


Rowe is a woman I hold the utmost respect for - as does all of the thinking. black. community on AA.org - and I will not sit by and read this ish without comment.

If she spat on your dog you should be grateful. tongue

I hope you - fuckwit - and the hoe who invited you here fuck off into the sunset. It is rare I resort to mindless obscenities but those seem to be the only lingua franca you understand. So, do me a favour... (heck why be greedy... do us ALL a favour) and FUCK OFF outta here. But you both won't coz you are so in awe of yo'selves. Roll Eyes
.
quote:
Originally posted by Amokess:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:

do those women in the 5 blk men 'marriageable' to 10 blk women stat, have kids?? attitudes issues?? obesity?? [or other non-attractiveness qualities???] [MEN ARE VISUAL] those are some of my concerns when I think about marriage to any color woman. too often, black women have problems understanding their 'rank' among the single, desireable menfolk that they desire.

What the... Confusedall those qualities can be said of Black men... women are visual too, although we may not be as visual... and having children or being obese may not be an "unattractive" quality. That depends on the man. He may have a child of his own, or he may enjoy a plump sister...believe me many do. And where I rank? ek Like all black men are some extinct fine specimen of mankind. The marriagable ones have issues like all humans do.


I think one issue 'ignored' in that article is the young black female's love for 'throwaway' relationships, namely in their early twenties. This frequently leads to Out of wedlock births [which may and often blocks her ability to attract men she desires later in life, i.e. professional/educateed blk men]..maybe facts like that didnt make the final edit for 'space' reasons Smile

In my early twenties I was searching for a stable partner...not a throw away relationship. It was men my age who taught me they weren't interested in that. And my FATHER who lived with us wasn't a nurturing father because his father wasn't. And my mother isn't doctor Phil so she didn't see that coming. So much for her super-hero powers of selection. So girls find their self worth from their fathers. Which may lead to the so called throw away relationships you speak of. They don't know how to be loved or love someone else.



'12% of black men do not choose black women' marriage is a first come, first serve basis / process of elimination deal...you cant expect a bruh to wait until a blk woman gets off of her Suge Knight fetish to someday 'wakeup' to reality. I think men are more likely to marry women that they are dating when they are developing/growing...not, let's say, after his law school graduation. Men know, that we are not dating/ marrying a woman, more so, we are dating her situation.

Men while in college are doing what they want to do, what they've always wanted to do. And marriage isn't always one of them. Many men marry a woman they can trust, one who is supportive, calm, strong yet soft, and positive. One who is intelligent, confident but not domineering, and one who already has a lot going on for herself. But of my freinds who went to college with me they weren't getting married.

And what is so fly about Suge Knight? Isn't he a coldhearted murderer who terrified the artists on his label?


"obese may not be an "unattractive" quality. That depends on the man....or he may enjoy a plump sister...believe me many do. "
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
quote:
Originally posted by El Tigre:
quote:
I read you comparing women to dogs.


Oh, no! The 'Sweaty Vagina Of Justice' is after me!


What a loser...

You need to learn how to read, Ms. Sweaty. I DID NOT compare women to dogs - I said I don't need a woman with a degree anymore than I need a dog with a degree - that's not what I need from them.

Then, I went on to explain what I needed from my dog and what I needed from my woman.

You're just an unhappy and probably unattractive vagina. Your insults mean little to me - you're just p*ssy to me - p*ssy I don't even want...


Rowe is a woman I hold the utmost respect for - as does all of the thinking. black. community on AA.org - and I will not sit by and read this ish without comment.

If she spat on your dog you should be grateful. tongue

I hope you - fuckwit - and the hoe who invited you here fuck off into the sunset. It is rare I resort to mindless obscenities but those seem to be the only lingua franca you understand. So, do me a favour... (heck why be greedy... do us ALL a favour) and FUCK OFF outta here. But you both won't coz you are so in awe of yo'selves. Roll Eyes
.


yeah You know what I have learned about self-proclaimed-super-f*ck-heros like this one? This is the man who sits at home and jacks his d**k every night of the week. IF, by chance, he has any women at all, they look much like the ones Radio put at the bottom of his post. Please ignore this a**hole! I have been up until this point. I'm only stepping in because he used a word that I abhor-p*ssy. Which lets me know what caliber of TRASH he really is. SMGDH

Firefly: I doubt very seriously that the chic who invited him here had ANY idea that he was this type of wannabe casanova pimp. Could she possibly?

Radio: I'm sorry sweetie. I wasn't aware that having kids made a woman unattractive. Eek Guess, I need to give up hope of finding anything other than a f*ck buddy, as someone one here called them! 17
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
quote:
Originally posted by El Tigre:
quote:
I read you comparing women to dogs.


Oh, no! The 'Sweaty Vagina Of Justice' is after me!


What a loser...

You need to learn how to read, Ms. Sweaty. I DID NOT compare women to dogs - I said I don't need a woman with a degree anymore than I need a dog with a degree - that's not what I need from them.

Then, I went on to explain what I needed from my dog and what I needed from my woman.

You're just an unhappy and probably unattractive vagina. Your insults mean little to me - you're just p*ssy to me - p*ssy I don't even want...


Rowe is a woman I hold the utmost respect for - as does all of the thinking. black. community on AA.org - and I will not sit by and read this ish without comment.

If she spat on your dog you should be grateful.
tongue





yeah

I'll also speak up for sistas with degrees. I need a woman with a mind I can make love to every bit as much as to her body. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I'm so sick of this nonsense... the number of homosexual men would be offset by the homosexual women. And there are plenty of "unsuitable" women out there for other reasons, who would off set many of the "unsuitable" men. The idea that society produces a number of unsuitable members of one gender, but not of the other, doesn't make any sense, and is not borne out by reality.



I agree.
quote:
Originally posted by The one and only ME:
quote:
Originally posted by FireFly:
quote:
Originally posted by El Tigre:
quote:
I read you comparing women to dogs.


Oh, no! The 'Sweaty Vagina Of Justice' is after me!


What a loser...

You need to learn how to read, Ms. Sweaty. I DID NOT compare women to dogs - I said I don't need a woman with a degree anymore than I need a dog with a degree - that's not what I need from them.

Then, I went on to explain what I needed from my dog and what I needed from my woman.

You're just an unhappy and probably unattractive vagina. Your insults mean little to me - you're just p*ssy to me - p*ssy I don't even want...


Rowe is a woman I hold the utmost respect for - as does all of the thinking. black. community on AA.org - and I will not sit by and read this ish without comment.

If she spat on your dog you should be grateful. tongue

I hope you - fuckwit - and the hoe who invited you here fuck off into the sunset. It is rare I resort to mindless obscenities but those seem to be the only lingua franca you understand. So, do me a favour... (heck why be greedy... do us ALL a favour) and FUCK OFF outta here. But you both won't coz you are so in awe of yo'selves. Roll Eyes
.


yeah You know what I have learned about self-proclaimed-super-f*ck-heros like this one? This is the man who sits at home and jacks his d**k every night of the week. IF, by chance, he has any women at all, they look much like the ones Radio put at the bottom of his post. Please ignore this a**hole! I have been up until this point. I'm only stepping in because he used a word that I abhor-p*ssy. Which lets me know what caliber of TRASH he really is. SMGDH

Firefly: I doubt very seriously that the chic who invited him here had ANY idea that he was this type of wannabe casanova pimp. Could she possibly?

Radio: I'm sorry sweetie. I wasn't aware that having kids made a woman unattractive. Eek Guess, I need to give up hope of finding anything other than a f*ck buddy, as someone one here called them! 17


not unattractive. having kids is just another quality that a potential mate may not want to deal with. that's all i was saying Wink
Black american men and women are placing way too high a standard for a suitable partner on each other.

White men who are executives will pick up his white sister that is a waitress, polish her and make her his wife. While black american men AND WOMEN place all these high standards on each other - he's got to be so tall, so rich, so thin, drive a certain car..on and on...

There are plenty of ghetto brothers who would make suitable spouses if they are given the opportunity.
White men who are executives will pick up his white sister that is a waitress, polish her and make her his wife.

No, that's not exactly true. Most white guys run in economic and social circles where the women have to be on equal footing. Not saying there are no white men who marry down but if you research the backgrounds of six figure income and above white men, you will see the majority of their wives were not former waitresses or Wal-Mart cashiers.

While black american men AND WOMEN place all these high standards on each other - he's got to be so tall, so rich, so thin, drive a certain car..on and on...

True......

There are plenty of ghetto brothers who would make suitable spouses if they are given the opportunity.

Uhhhhhhh.....I don't know if that is true. First of all, if the brother had any ambition, goals or initiative, he wouldn't be a ghetto brother to begin with! Or at least he would not spend his adult life as one!
Americans have more important issues than black/white.
http://www.lookstoogoodtobetrue.com/fraud/rom...
Are you wondering if the person that you are talking to is too good to be true? Are there
things that you are being told that just don't make sense? Did the person find you on a
singles site and start professing their love for you in a short time? Did they tell you that
they were currently working or living in a foreign country? Are they telling you that they
are having trouble cashing their paychecks? If so, you might be the target of an Internet
"romance scam." These scams can come to you disguised in several ways.

If you use an online dating service, please only search or respond to people near you. At
least make sure they are in America. Not "originally from" America, but now living somewhere else. Also, please ask them "why" they like your profile. Form letters are easy. If they
"fall in love" with you in a few days, weeks, or even months, then beware. And please don't
give them any information about where you live. Identity theft would be insult to injury.

http://www.ic3.gov/preventiontips.aspx
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
"obese may not be an "unattractive" quality. That depends on the man....or he may enjoy a plump sister...believe me many do. "
[/QUOTE]

And you posted this pic to prove what? These sistas are obviously Full figured strippers at a party. All BBW's do not dress like that: Quenn Latifah, Tocara, Mo'Nique are wonderful examples of what some beautiful full figured women. It's all about your perception and preference. [IMG:left] [/IMG][IMG:left] [/IMG]
Man, this topic always cracks me the hell up! Here's why: Pushing PolyGamy to fix a situation that was created by Men, is NOT the answer. Whoever said that there are more Women than there are Men, lied, and the truth ain't in them.

Think about it people: We would not historically have a patriarchal society and Men would not rule all over the world if there were more Women than Men. While Women are starting to catch up, Men still outnumber Women and this is why we see the bullshit in the world that we see today. LOL...it's true, watch:

The brotha said that there are less Men available to Women because of wars, prison, homosexuality and the like, like that mess is OUR fault. If you did not war with eachother, many Men would not be dead. And if you tried to curb your animalistic tendency to bust, shoot, manipulate and steal up everything you saw (because you WILL have it or it WILL be what you want it to be), many Men would not be in the prisons. And if you tried to understand that your fellow Man's a$$hole and nipples and mouth, while round, should not be things you stick your Man Stick in, many Men would not be licking on each other, but instead sticking it to the cutie on your block.

Then when you look at the fact that Men do rule all over the world, then see that the world is busted, how can you say that Women are the problem??? If it truly is "a Man's World" then it is also Men who've got the problem. But I understand, Eve made you do it....or Steve for those of you so inclined!

But Women are starting to have the same options that many Men had for a while, when it comes to choosing a mate. For instance, some Asian countries used to kill off the girl children, in favor of male offspring. Now the Men in those areas are having issues with finding mates, as they find the lack of them is more than they can bare. Women get to choose. In Canada, there are more Men then Women. Women get to choose. Even in some places in the US, Women get to choose.

But that doesn't make the choosing better, by any means, as Men are still learning to treat a Women like a Woman and not a bitch.

Since it was a dick that created the scenario where there could some day be more Women than Men, making all of those Women stick with one dick ain't gonna fix the problem. Obviously, Women are going to have to exercise their options on choosing Men from those areas where there are many, many more Men.

Moreover, Black Women, while we prefer Black Men are going to have to seriously look at and evaluate dating Non-Black Men WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT US AS WOMEN, not as exotic creatures or easy "fuck" toys.

Don't shoot the messenger....it is what it is...
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:

Moreover, Black Women, while we prefer Black Men are going to have to seriously look at and evaluate dating Non-Black Men WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT US AS WOMEN, not as exotic creatures or easy "fuck" toys.

Don't shoot the messenger....it is what it is...



I dont know.......i read this and immediately felt a pain in my chest.

I just wished things were different.......

This is sad, but it is, what it is...
Qty,

I know it's sad...and in Truth, it brings a pain to my chest every time I have to think about it and say those words, but it is better to know the situation and understand your options than to sit around waiting and hoping for what may never be.

BTW, your signature tag is the EXACT same one I have on one of my webpages...lol. Great Minds....
I have a message too, so I hope you won't shoot me either.

quote:
Think about it people: We would not historically have a patriarchal society and Men would not rule all over the world if there were more Women than Men. While Women are starting to catch up, Men still outnumber Women and this is why we see the bullshit in the world that we see today. LOL...it's true, watch:

The brotha said that there are less Men available to Women because of wars, prison, homosexuality and the like, like that mess is OUR fault. If you did not war with eachother, many Men would not be dead. And if you tried to curb your animalistic tendency to bust, shoot, manipulate and steal up everything you saw (because you WILL have it or it WILL be what you want it to be), many Men would not be in the prisons. And if you tried to understand that your fellow Man's a$$hole and nipples and mouth, while round, should not be things you stick your Man Stick in, many Men would not be licking on each other, but instead sticking it to the cutie on your block.

Then when you look at the fact that Men do rule all over the world, then see that the world is busted, how can you say that Women are the problem??? If it truly is "a Man's World" then it is also Men who've got the problem. But I understand, Eve made you do it....or Steve for those of you so inclined!
But that doesn't make the choosing better, by any means, as Men are still learning to treat a Women like a Woman and not a bitch.

Since it was a dick that created the scenario where there could some day be more Women than Men, making all of those Women stick with one dick ain't gonna fix the problem. Obviously, Women are going to have to exercise their options on choosing Men from those areas where there are many, many more Men.

Moreover, Black Women, while we prefer Black Men are going to have to seriously look at and evaluate dating Non-Black Men WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT US AS WOMEN, not as exotic creatures or easy "fuck" toys.

Don't shoot the messenger....it is what it is...


This jaded, cynical, and bitter attitude going into new dating scenarios certainly doesn't make you stand out as an appealing mate. Caution and good judgement are one thing, but acting like you and your sisters are perfect mates just being left on the fence is bs . Everyone has issues, so the trick is finding someone whose pros outweigh their cons, someone you can communicate effectively with, and someone who is willing to grow over time. That's not tough, it just takes time, patience, and a willingness to delay gratification. IMO, most people want all the qualities of their dream mate NOW, without having to put in time or effort to make it happen.

IMO, to be perfectly honest, most women do not communicate effectively what they need and want in a mate to a prospective partner. They discuss it clearly with their girlfriends, but expect the man to "just know". I believe the comp sci phrase is garbage in, garbage out. Don't act like how men interact with you exists in a vacuum. Your choices and actions often play a role in how you are treated.

While polygamy may not be the answer, the venom spewed at Black men frequently here certainly isn't the answer either.

hat
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Oh Brotha deal....we have to.

I never said that we Women are perfect, but I did say that we are human and can understand the human condition.

Like you, I believe that good quality RelationShips take time, but I also realize that many Men don't want to take the time to get to know a Woman - who she is on the inside. That "I want to test it out first" mentality is busted. Again, I know some of ya'll revere R. Kelly, but we ladies are not Jeeps and No, you can't ride it.

As far as communicating, that takes honesty and the ability to realize that a lot of people are tired and pissed off or just don't want to deal with the issue of Black Men and Black Women RelationShips.

Finally, there was no venom. I just get tired of coming into multiple platforms and the topic of the day is how Black Women are "not getting it." If it's not that, we are too damned fat, or frequent Weave City or we're out in Attidude Land or we're all Gold Diggin Hoochies with 50 "baby daddies."

"Negro Please" goes both ways....for real! LOL...
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
Qty,

I know it's sad...and in Truth, it brings a pain to my chest every time I have to think about it and say those words, but it is better to know the situation and understand your options than to sit around waiting and hoping for what may never be.

BTW, your signature tag is the EXACT same one I have on one of my webpages...lol. Great Minds....



After reading this, i started to cry and i actually felt good about being a dark skinned black woman, for once in my life. I have it on all of my webpages, and people always comment on it.

I love it.. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by ShayaButHer:
Oh Brotha deal....we have to.

I never said that we Women are perfect, but I did say that we are human and can understand the human condition.

Like you, I believe that good quality RelationShips take time, but I also realize that many Men don't want to take the time to get to know a Woman - who she is on the inside. That "I want to test it out first" mentality is busted. Again, I know some of ya'll revere R. Kelly, but we ladies are not Jeeps and No, you can't ride it.

As far as communicating, that takes honesty and the ability to realize that a lot of people are tired and pissed off or just don't want to deal with the issue of Black Men and Black Women RelationShips.

Finally, there was no venom. I just get tired of coming into multiple platforms and the topic of the day is how Black Women are "not getting it." If it's not that, we are too damned fat, or frequent Weave City or we're out in Attidude Land or we're all Gold Diggin Hoochies with 50 "baby daddies."

"Negro Please" goes both ways....for real! LOL...


I'm dealing. I'm curious though: What part of dealing requires me to make mean-spirited commentary?

Let me break out one of my favorite questions: Where is your poll or research that shows many men don't want to know "who the woman is on the inside"? What does that phrase really mean? The disconnect is likely in the inability to effectively communicate what this means to men.

Point me to ALL the threads where we called sisters hoodrats, gold diggers, and hoochies?

You haven't read much I've posted here or many of the male regulars I imagine. Otherwise, I doubt if you would continue to paint us as neophyte, ignorant, booty-chasing hip-hoppers.

Everybody gets tired & angry sometimes. Still don't know what you hope to accomplish by insulting men that are unlikely to engage in the behaviors you describe. That's not in keeping with "understanding the human condition", is it?

If you want real talk, put the questions on the table plain, minus the veiled and not-so-veiled jabs. Once you get some real answers from us, accept what we say & mean - don't try and translate it into what you think we really mean.
Yeah, and I'm laughing over here....

Mean spirited commentary? Everything I said was TruthFul. Don't blame me if you don't know how to deal with those Truths.

As far as your favorite questions: Where is your poll or research that shows many men don't want to know "who the woman is on the inside"?

Common Sense is in order here, please. While I'm schooled academically and have experience personally, brotha do I really need a poll or some research to convince you that many Men are not trying to FIRST know "who the Woman is on the inside?" If so, do your own daggone homework, because I've already been down that route in multiple venues and I've learned that even those facts don't convince those who don't really want to be convinced.

Now, I don't believe I need a poll or research to answer that question. So I will ask you this: When is the last time one of the fellas came to you and clearly expressed a desire to know everything he could about a Woman BEFORE he slept with her? Have many Men do you know that want to WAIT for sex? When you look around in OUR community, how many Men do you see complaining about what a Black Woman won't do, what Black Women NEED to do, what a Black Women SHOULD look like/dress like/smell like/talk like, etc?

You asked what the phrase means: What does get to know someone on the inside mean to you? Are you unfamiliar with getting to know every aspect of a Woman BEFORE you take it to the bedroom, or I should say, BEFORE you approach her for sex?

There is no inability to relay what that means to a man. That's Common Sense and if you are going to say to the world that Black Men are whole Men and not the 3/5th of a Man that some would argue you are, you need to THINK intelligently and quit acting like you don't know. You know what "get to know a person on the inside is" and splitting hairs is just another means to avoid dealing with the real problem at hand.

Do you KNOW her? Do you know about her family, her life, her dreams, her ambitions, if she wants kids someday, what she likes in a Man, what places she's visited around the world, if she likes sugar in her coffee, if her arches have fallen in her feet, if she's a size 14 on her period and a size 12 when off, if she likes your a$$, if she despises your a$$, if she would sniff your a$$ if you told her to, if she has a mind of her own, if she won't take your shit, if she will be in shit with you, if she will bail you out of shit, if she will like your friends, if she KNOWS your friends, if she respects her elders, if she wears perfumes or oils, if she's cool like that, if she's through like that, if she'll rub your feet, if she wants you to rub HER feet, if she'll wash for you, if she'll make YOU wash, if she likes to cook, if she wants YOU to cook, where she wants to be in five years, etc, etc, etc,....

Do you KNOW her on the inside; do you know as much as you can possibly know about her - the good, the bad, the ugly and the insane.


As far as "pointing you to the threads that said...all sistas, blah blah blah" man LOOK UP at the responses in this thread. Then go to the thread where the sistah asked for a Woman's POV, then go to the thread that asked if Sistah's are Too Strong For Our Own Good, then go to the thread about Weight, then go to the thread about How To Please A Man (what Men like), etc, etc., etc....

Before you accuse someone of NOT reading what you and others wrote, maybe you should go back and do more than just look at the words others wrote. Your tag says "READING IS FUNDAMENTAL" so read them posts: read them straight, read between the lines, & read the responses. Because I will let you know, I HAVE read a LOT of what you've written, as well as some of the others up in here - and yes, I've held back to see the responses. I've been in here since July BECAUSE of one Brotha's nonsense and have posted only recently, so don't give me that mess about NOT reading. It takes a lot of restraint to read some of the mess that some have written and NOT go off....and you know you'd feel the same if you always heard the "tired Black Man" spiel as you assumed you heard in my post, so don't front.

In addition, I didn't paint you as anything. While I'm an artist, I'm not the Master Artist and I don't have control over what you do. But I do have control over what I do and I brought you the Truth, however bothersome it may be to you. If the truth insults you, deal with Truth, but don't get pissed off at me. If you don't like the conditions, change them and stop blaming Black Women. When you blame Black Women, who've already been blamed for everything under the sun, you have to know that the finger is coming straight back to you. It's natural, it's human, as we ALL defend ourselves if we have any sense.

Finally, I don't have any questions for you. If I did, I would have asked. I'm straight forward like that, you don't have to wonder about what I'm thinking...believe that. I will tell you, whether you like it or not, whether you care for it or not and how you take it is how you make it. There's no need for "translating" anything. I told you what I thought and that is this:

The World is busted, and yes it is Men's fault if you are going to claim, "It's a Man's World!" You can't claim the glory and claim you don't understand the dung that's on the crown. If it's your crown, you know every part of it - even how the dirt got there.

I also said that Men and Women are different. You think one way, we think another.

I also said some of you all are full of shit, because you are and you know it...and don't tell me that is not true giving the rituals played by Pimps trying to teach Pimpology.

I also said some of you are liars and we can't trust you as far as we can spit, because it's the damn Truth. Talkin bout "Women need to learn to close their legs" all the while trying to get between them. "I want a wife, not a ho" but actions speak to Pimpdom, nudie tudie and hide that booty on Sunday....whateva!

I also said some of you need to get a clue, because you do. While you have more options with Women around the World, there's not a damn thing wrong with your Black Women and if we can wait out the years until you're ready, opting to put you first, you sure as hell can try to do the same for us.

I also said some of your a$$es are hypocrites. She can't have any extra pounds, but here he comes looking like the GoodYear Blimp. She can't be dark skinned, but he's not two shades lighter than an old fashioned stove himself. She can't have kids, but it's "okay" for him to "start over" with a Woman who has no kids. She can't go out to the club, but it's his second home. She better not be caught smiling at a man, but he can't stop glowing from all the lovely ladies he sees daily because "he's just the man." She can't be pissed off and voice her concerns, but he can say whatever the hell he wants to and call it a day.

Bullshit...I didn't mince my words. You got the real the first time and if you felt it was veiled, you should have appreciated my attempt to bring the real without walking all over your ego.
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Oh, and I forgot to mention that I am not jaded, cynical or bitter - but I am really pissed off at the bullshit that's been brought to so many Black Women and the expectation that we are to keep taking that shit without saying anything.

As far as "finding a mate" it's clear that you don't read my posts. If you did, you would have realized that while I am approached by many Men, I am single by choice until such time as a quality Man graces my path. I don't have time for boys parading as Men.

Don't assume. I'm sure you know by now that when you do, you make an a$$ out of YOU and not me.
You just evaded every question I asked. If by your own admission men and women are different, isn't it possible that we don't interpret things the same the way. Now that you have laid out what you mean by "know on the inside", I can say that I know quite a few celibate men that do not look to bed first, ask questions later. I know sexually active men that are upfront & honest with their willing female partners and expect the same.

Can you honestly say that all women truly learn everything about the men they date before they bed them, especially your friends, associates, and family? If so, then they willingly choose the drama they receive. If not, then aren't they guilty of the same problem you accuse men of having? Funny how you can't have it both ways, huh?

Anecdote does not equal fact. Because your experience may consist of all those negative events with Black men, don't pretend like everyone shares your plight.

You are making some of my points for me:

On one hand, you say you are direct, then you say I should read between the lines.

Again, if you're just looking to vent - knock yourself out. If this is as willing as you get to have a constructive discussion (which is what Black men & women need to have to fix our problem), I'll leave you alone with your "Truth".


P.S. Stop taking this personal - I'm not!
quote:
So I will ask you this: When is the last time one of the fellas came to you and clearly expressed a desire to know everything he could about a Woman BEFORE he slept with her? Have many Men do you know that want to WAIT for sex?


I know you directed this to DD; but my answer would be more than you would suspect [or believe]. But then again I and, from what I've gathered, the majority of the male posters at this site have gone through that grown-ass child booty hopping phase, and tend to associate with men of the same mind.
DDouble,

Brotha, again, I don't have to evade anything and I DIDN'T evade anything. If you can't handle what I set down, then I have to say again, "Just Deal"...

I already said we don't interpret things the same way. Does that still give either one of an excuse to "evade" the mess we can leave in another's quake as we go about "living our life?" No, it does not.

As far as Kweli and your knowing Men who are celibate - that is shock and awe for me because no, I don't know too many Men who are abstaining from sex, and if they tried, it was never for long. When I say long, I'm not talking about a couple of months, as it takes longer than that to get to know a person, for real. I'm talking about years. Can you go 3, 4, 5 years if it takes that long to find and get to know the Woman you plan to marry? That is a fair question and a workable task because I've done it for the last 7 year; 7 years last week.

To be Truthful, most Men that I've asked the question of state that they fully believe that Men can not go too long without sex and they justify it with the mantra, "it's in our nature." That does not mean that I know Men who are just dogs, brotha. I'm telling you what Men, who for all intents and purposes appear to be TRYING to be Men, have said.

That is not my "perception"...but what they've spoken to me.

As far as the coin being on the other side, again brotha, you ain't hearing me. I never said that some Women don't bother to get to know who they're screwing. But I can tell you as a Woman from experience, we can try to find everything we can about you and STILL not know everything. This is so because as I stated, Men engage in "the game" like one's life is a game. Don't give me that, "You just couldn't spot the bs" mess either, because if I am, as a Black Woman, supposed to be looking for the good in you, supposed to NOT be holding your past mess against you, supposed to NOT be judging you, wouldn't it go without saying that I am NOT always necessarily looking for the mess that's held within you? We know that we all have some kind of mess, somewhere in our life. If I choose to build with you and choose to trust you and choose to love you, why in hell did I all of a sudden choose any DRAMA I receive if YOU were deceitful. If I chose to do all of those things based on the fact that I would want you to do the same for me, why is my a$$ weak for doing so? If I chose to do all of those things because that's what decent human beings do, why is something wrong with ME when it's YOU causing the bullshit?

Sorry brotha, but your argument doesn't wash with me. There are many Good Women out there who chose what they believed to be Good Men. As I stated in another venue, most Women out there would not say that their exes were just dogs, because if that were true, many would not have been with them from the start. Most Women choose to build with Men from what they see and from what they hear, out of that Man...and we don't have x-ray vision, we can't see everything. We see what you set down for us...what you put before us, unless we see otherwise.

Now, do SOME Women purposely go into bullshit? Absolutely. And like you, I believe they deserve everything they get if they really thought their coochies and their abilities were so much more powerful than the Cosmos' ability to change some of you all.

But I'm not talking about those Women. I'm talking about those Men who knowingly deceive and those Men who let them. Those Men who erode the trust, self confidence, the giving ability and the love that many Women have to give, all because they didn't think more of that Woman than the challenge her coochie possessed for him. I'm talking about those Men who wonder about the "baggage" a Woman carries but who also can't understand that if they messed around AT ALL in life, experiencing the backlash from that baggage is just Karma catching up with their a$$. I'm talking about those Men who claim to love Black Women, but who constantly act as if they don't even love themselves, let alone a Woman. I'm talking about those Men who are constantly trying to "figure out" what's "wrong with the Black Woman," while they can't understand that their actions have consequences that reach far and wide into a Woman's life.

That is not anecdotal: that is fact. And while I may have my own experiences, be afraid that there are many, many, many, many, many more Women across the globe who have the same experiences, which means that my a$$ ain't off base OR off my mental.

As far as your read between the lines and be direct comment, again, I think Common Sense is in order. When I asked you to read, I asked you to do more than just look at the words: I asked you to think. Critical Thinking demands that you not only see what you read, but be able to interpret it, whether you feel you have to or not. While I was direct in what I was saying, everybody ain't that direct. In addition, there may be multiple meanings for what you read. Whether you catch them is up to you...and I know that is not foreign to you as you seemed all too eager to read into my own post.

Constructive conversation can only be achieved with FrankNess...I'm knocking myself out with Truth, mine and others. I can't help you understand if you are not looking to understand. Moreover, I can't build a bridge with you, if you are not willing to be on the crew; if you are not willing to mix the cement and help lay the foundation. I can't want to be around you if you have nothing "constructive" or "positive" to say about Black Women. And I can't ReSpect you, if you can't ReSpect me.

So YES - This IS Personal: for Me and for You because I am a Black Woman who's fed up and you are a Black Man who's fed up. There are a lot of us out here and at some point, both of us are going to be on the other end of this thing we call dialogue. It ain't all going to be pretty, but all of it doesn't need to smell like piss either.
I'm not fed up. In fact my experiences, even the negative ones were impetus for me to grow, not become angry and lash out at all women. To be completely honest, I'm in a great place relationship-wise - I couldn't ask for a better situation.

I still think your "Common Sense" cry is an evasion tactic. That phrase means different things to different people.

Can't speak to how long is long enough to know someone - I don't think it's universal. So whether 7 years, months, days, or hours, it's up to that man and woman. Ultimately, you either believe what Kweli & I are saying or not. If not, there's nothing to discuss further because the men will be in a no-win situation unless we accept a premise we don't agree with.

Deception is not the exclusive province of men in relationships. We also see only what you present to us as well.

At any rate, I wish you the best with whatever path you are on. I can't argue perception - neither can you - so we are at an impasse, until men and women are ready for solution building.
Well, you may not be fed up, but I am. My stating that is not being angry and lashing out at all Men. My stating that is speaking the Truth of myself and many other Women who need Women like me to stand up.

You all have to stop becoming upset when we do stand up and realize that these are Truths for us, as Women. I don't think you are going to get anywhere with us until you are ready to acknowledge that. THOSE things I wrote about are on the minds of MANY Women and we want to know that you give a damn about how you affect us; about our place in this world as Black Women.

We are at an impasse on "evasion"...I answered your questions as best as I could. I don't know what else you want or what else you need me to answer.

I did not say that I don't believe yourself and Kweli, but that I don't know any Men who are abstaining...and while Women can be just as deceitful, the topic of the thread was too many brides, too few brothas..blah blah blah...which means that there are many Black Women out there available and ready, but not enough Black Men out there who are willing.

So, knowing that, what are your solutions? I'd be interested in hearing them.

BTW, just in case you are not looking there at the moment, I asked several questions of you in your Supplement post.

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