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_ There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth. _- Maya Angelou

[/QUOTE]

Certainly, the osurce has stature. One of my favorite people. Hearing her in person is exhilarating.

But is she right?

Is fact different from truth? That is what is implied in the statement. Can fact obscure what is true?

Isn't what is true, fact?

Isn't fact what is true?

I would not be concerned if the statement were: "A statement of fact can obscure the truth." Obviously, a statement of fact can be a bald-faced lie. But that's not what she said.

So, do you call the validity of a statement by such a prestigeous person into question? Clearly, the anser is, "Yes."

If indeed there is a "world of difference between truth and facts", what is it?

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
African Americans for African America http://iaanh2.org African American Pledge of Unity We stand, Together, after left alone in a land we never knew. We Bind ourselves, Together, with the blood and will of Those who have gone before. From the Bodies of our Ancestors thrown away, from the Pieces of Ourselves left to perish, We rise as One, a New Body in a New Land, a New People in a New Nation. Of Common Mind, Body, and Spirit, By Declaration of our Amalgamated Individual and Personal Authorities, We Are African America. © James Wesley Chester 2004; 2008 You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
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isistah:

I agree.

Statistics are mathmatical statements REGARDING/ABOUT facts. They may, or may not be true. Truth is not inherent in the statement.

The fact is the number. 23 ia 23. What "23" means is something else.

Statistics are not about truth. Statements are demonstrations of a point of view.

What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't. The contradiction of such misidentification with the truth can lead to Angelou's conclusion. Without seeing the greater context, it indeed be what she was saying. All that glitters is no gold.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on November 04, 2003 at 06:25 AM.]


[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on November 04, 2003 at 06:32 AM.]
Also, when something is discussed, there are times when the introduction of "facts" move the discussion from its initial issue, to a tangential point; thus obscuring the truth of the discussion. For example, we have seen this done many times in our discussions on Affirmative Action. We start with the premise that AA is a good thing. After a while, the discussion breaks down to arguments of phrasiology and semantics. Although, all (or most) of the arguments are in fact "true", they detract and distract from the original discussion.

If one can get his/her opponent to argue about a minor, insignificant point, the focus of the discussion is lost.
I see no conflict or contradiction in Maya Angelou's statement.

FACTS are bits of info. that when collected can make a particular statement about a subject. (Notice the PLURAL form of the word.)

Certainly, the particular set of facts someone chooses to collect and the particular statement they have decided to make by selectings those particular facts can indeed obscure what is the actual TRUTH of the matter by focusing on issues that may not be at the heart of the matter and instead appealing to other sensibilities or prejudices.

FACTS.... and the TRUTH are not one in the same.
TRUTH is the proper intepretation and weighing of the "FACTS".

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou
Case and point:

FACTS are U.S. troops are still being killed in IRAQ. And are still facing resistance.

The TRUTH of whether or not that is evidence of a failed Occupation Strategy rests in how you interpret that along with other facts.

Also, the FACT that they are facing resistance is not evidence alone that that resistance - since the belief or prediction was that the Iraqi would welcome Americans as Liberators - is from "Saddam Loyalist". Nor is the FACT that the capture/confrontation of those who were part of Saddam's regime as well as "outsiders" primia facia evidence that the TRUTH is that the resistance are solely Anti-American factions vs. more of Anti-Occupation sentiments.

The TRUTH is both can be true at the same time though certain "facts" can be collected to make it seem as if one is true while the other is not.

So "FACTS" aren't just mere mathematical things...
I think thus far we all agree. With examples given.

Since I am the one who address "mathmatical things", I feel I should address Nmaginate's statement of "facts aren't just mathematical things".

On examinatin you will find I didn't say they were. I did however, say "Statistics are mathematical ststements REGARDING/ABOUT facts."

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on November 04, 2003 at 09:29 AM.]
C'mon, Mr. Chester...

What does mathematics or statistics have to do with the examples I listed?

You should just admit that you offered a narrow scope of what you were going to call "FACTS" and be done with it. It's not an attack on you or saying that you were wrong. You just thought about it in a completely different way by focusing on NUMBERS - whether they're expressed in math equations (I guess) or general statistics.

FACTS are simply things that are true. But one fact or even a number of facts does not the TRUTH of a whole subject make. That's my point.

You have focused on hairsplitting, semantics and being all too literal about something inwhich there really should not be an issue.
quote:
I would not be concerned if the statement were: "A statement of fact can obscure the truth." Obviously, a statement of fact can be a bald-faced lie. But that's not what she said.


You're trippin' because Maya Angelou didn't use the same phraseology you would use. I guess I shouldn't be surprised...

Now, if someone was to take the same ultra-literal approach to your statement that you have taken to her's they could easily ask:
HOW can a statement of fact be a "bald-faced lie".
It's a FACT isn't it?... FACTS DON'T LIE..right?

I think people are smart or should be smart enough to intuit what she means and what you mean though you statement would require more explanation, IMO, if you want to really talk about seemingly contradictory statements.
quote:
Is fact different from truth? That is what is implied in the statement. Can fact obscure what is true?

Read my tag again. NOTICE the PLURAL form of the word FACT*S*... Now go back and see how you misconstrued the meaning by using the word in a singular form - i.e. FACT.

Using your own logic against you...
quote:
Isn't what is true, fact?

Isn't fact what is true?
How can a "FACT" or a "statement of FACT" (you would have to explain what your distinction is) which you have said logically equates to what is TRUE be a Bald-Faced LIE?

Substituting... True/Truth for the word Fact...
We are lead to believe without any explanation from you of course that:
"A STATEMENT OF TRUTH CAN BE A BALD-FACED LIE."

Simply, Chester you need to explain your statement. We cannot read your mind as to what it is that makes you say that and what your distinction is between a FACT and a STATEMENT OF FACT... or really how what you have accused Maya Angelou of is not being duplicated by your unspecified ramblings.

Your statement taken alone or in a different context would be something we would perhaps understand with little or no problems because we would assume it is relative to whatever is being discussed or not meant to necessarily be an absolute one. However, since you want to make an issue and do a poor job representing Maya Angelou's statement (changing PLURAL to SINGULAR) then your thinking must be called into question.

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
C'mon, Mr. Chester...

What does mathematics or statistics have to do with the examples I listed?

I wasn't referencing your examples, but rather your statement as a cited it.

You should just admit that you offered a narrow scope of what you were going to call "FACTS" and be done with it.

I offered a narrow scope regarding statistics.

It's not an attack on you or saying that you were wrong. You just thought about it in a completely different way by focusing on NUMBERS - whether they're expressed in math equations (I guess) or general statistics.

Right. I referenced only stats.

FACTS are simply things that are true.

Right. We agree. Again.

But one fact or even a number of facts does not the TRUTH of a whole subject make. That's my point.

I agree again. Bits of the truth do mot comprise the whole truth of a subject.

You have focused on hairsplitting, semantics and being all too literal about something inwhich there really should not be an issue.
quote:
I would not be concerned if the statement were: "A statement of fact can obscure the truth." Obviously, a statement of fact can be a bald-faced lie. But that's not what she said.



You may see the difference as "semantics". Someone, whose name I've forgotten spent a lot of time pounding the difference between "fact" and "a statement of fact." And it wasn't about semantics. Believe it or not the two are indeed different things. Not be able to recognize the difference can have s very large impact.

You're trippin' because Maya Angelou didn't use the same phraseology you would use. I guess I shouldn't be surprised...

I didn't/don't take issue with Ms Angelou not using phrasing I would use. You really think that??? Amazing. If true, you should be surprised.

Now, if someone was to take the same ultra-literal approach to your statement that you have taken to her's they could easily ask:
_HOW can a statement of fact be a "bald-faced lie".
It's a FACT isn't it?... FACTS DON'T LIE..right?

Both 3 and 7 are numbers. (statement of fact and true). Both 3 and 7 are even numbers. (statement of fact and a bald-face lie.
_
I think people are smart or should be smart enough to intuit what she means and what you mean though you statement would require more explanation, IMO, if you want to really talk about seemingly contradictory statements.
quote:
Is fact different from truth? That is what is implied in the statement. Can fact obscure what is true?

Read my tag again. NOTICE the PLURAL form of the word FACT*S*... Now go back and see how you misconstrued the meaning by using the word in a singular form - i.e. FACT.

I think I've done all that.

Using your own logic against you...
quote:
Isn't what is true, fact?

Isn't fact what is true?
How can a "FACT" or a "statement of FACT" (you would have to explain what your distinction is) which you have said logically equates to what is TRUE be a Bald-Faced LIE?

Please read the example above.

Substituting... True/Truth for the word Fact...
We are lead to believe without any explanation from you of course that:
"A STATEMENT OF TRUTH CAN BE A BALD-FACED LIE."

NOW YOU HAVE IT!!

Simply, Chester you need to explain your statement. We cannot read your mind as to what it is that makes you say that and what your distinction is between a FACT and a STATEMENT OF FACT... or really how what you have accused Maya Angelou of is not being duplicated by your unspecified ramblings.

Accused??? Puhleeeze.

Your statement taken alone or in a different context would be something we would perhaps understand with little or no problems because we would assume it is relative to whatever is being discussed or not meant to necessarily be an absolute one. However, since you want to make an issue and do a poor job representing Maya Angelou's statement (changing PLURAL to SINGULAR) then your thinking must be called into question.
________________________________________________

I thought it was a very pragmatic look. Not accusatory. Just a look. I agree that many will accept the statement as offered. I do however refer you again to example(s) above.

PEACE

Jim Chester

________________________________________________________________
_ There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth. _- Maya Angelou




You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
quote:
James Wesley Chester:
quote:
Nmaginate:
_HOW can a statement of fact be a "bald-faced lie".
It's a FACT isn't it?... FACTS DON'T LIE..right?
_Both 3 and 7 are numbers. (statement of fact and true). Both 3 and 7 are even numbers. (statement of fact and a bald-face lie._
_
I think people are smart or should be smart enough to intuit what she means and what you mean though your statement would require more explanation, IMO, if you want to really talk about seemingly contradictory statements.
quote:
James Wesley Chester:

Isn't what is true, fact?

Isn't fact what is true?

I would not be concerned if the statement were: "A statement of fact can obscure the truth." Obviously, a statement of fact can be a bald-faced lie. But that's not what she said.
I don't know why I waste time with you sometimes... Look at the bold...

I'm glad you admitted (eventhough you didn't) that "that's not what she said. " Because your little equation, again, is misleading and misrepresenting her statement. Her statement is, in fact, saying what you want to claim as your original thoughts...
    Without seeing the greater context... things called, or thought to be, facts [and therefore true] aren't [necessarily so - in the whole scheme of things.]
THANK YOU MR. CHESTER FOR AN EXERCISE IN THE CIRCLE JERK!!! Big Grin NOT!!

Again, you could at least have the intellectual integrity to represent what she said accurately.
quote:
Isn't what is true, fact?

Isn't fact what is true?

Try using the actual terms she used.
    There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
    Facts can obscure truth.
    - Maya Angelou
Substituting... Tell me how this sounds:[LIST]Isn't what is true, factS?

Isn't factS what is true? [LIST]Kind of sound pretty awkward doesn't it. You can insert the proper subject-verb agreement and still it leaves something there that doesn't quite compute. Well, that would implicate this whole exercise of yours where you come around and make the same point she was making and act like Columbus, as if you have discovered something new!

I don't begrudge your question. Makes for good conversation regardless... but to act like there was something wrong with the construction of her thought is disingenuous.

Further, FACTS are no less TRUE regardless. They are true about what particular thing they represent, regardless. They don't lose their truth value if indeed they ever were true.

It's what is said about them and additional assumptions made about them as to what they mean where the issue of overall TRUTH comes in. When collected in a certain fashion they may not tell the whole story, be misrepresentative of what they claim to represent - i.e. simply misused, etc. - or OBSCURE what it is they claim to be about. Nevertheless, 3 or 7 don't become any less true as numbers because someone decides to make a false claim about what 3 or 7 represent. 3 & 7 still remain 3 & 7 regardless to how bad they are misused.

And that's the whole crux of it all.
FACTS - i.e. several - can be misused to misrepresent what the ultimate TRUTH is.

That's what SHE said and that's what you said. So, I'm still trying to see what your point is and, of course, you never stipulated what the difference was between a "FACT" and a "STATEMENT OF FACT"... I guess I never should have expected you to. Typical... I have come to expect your ridiculous VALIDATION EXPLORATION that you do when someone oppose your ill-conceived notions.

"WE AGREE!!" Big Grin

I hope you have fulfill whatever need you have in that area...

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou
The title of this thread you generated is FACT*S* vs. TRUTH.

There is no help for the disingenuous.
YOU HAVE SAID EXACTLY WHAT Maya Angelou said.

There's no need to hairsplit what she said to promote yourself for whatever reason you seem to want to do so.

To answer your question which again is contrary to Maya's statement because you insist on trying to glean some leverage from using the SINGULAR form of the word FACT... IT DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

Is a fact truth? Depends on what the scope of what you are calling the TRUTH. A FACT can be a TRUTH by itself or in combination with other "FACTS". But they can also be in error in terms of what they are purported to say or really mean about a subject. The example I gave about the Iraq War explains my position and reasoning.

You're really asking a very shallow question. (aka One with any real substance. aka a Triviality!)

There is no absolute way to say a FACT is "THE" TRUTH... because the TRUTH as far as I'm concerned is a much broader ideal than what a fact or facts necessarily are.
FACT(S) = Information. TRUTH = MEANING or the CORRECT application/understanding of the meaning and relevance of INFORMATION to a particular subject.

Again, you want to engage in a debate and never reveal what your working definition of the terms you are using or the sense inwhich you are using them. You think that by stating the terms over and over as well as by using simple though flawed equations (and stating them over and over) that some additional meaning is given by simple saying them again.

You're like my wife... You expect people to know what you are thinking eventhough you've never expressed what you actually think fully. This is ridiculous. You've already asked that question and it has been addressed for its poor construction and its inaccurate depiction of what Maya said.

YOU HAVE SAID EXACTLY what Maya Angelou said in the first place. Like a poster on a Basketball board says: "...YOU ARE ASSESSED NO POINTS!"
quote:
What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't.
That's exactly what is meant by my Maya tag, JWC!! And like I said:
    I think people are smart or should be smart enough to intuit what she means and what you mean... [without hairsplitting].
Her saying "Facts can obscure TRUTH" is not equivalent to say ALL FACTS can obscure truth or whatever you might be thinking. She just said what you said, I think... but you don't know how to really explain what you think so....
giveup

I really don't know what you think because you're subject to say anything... Soooooooooo!!!

Enjoy You Life as the CIRCLE JERK MASTER! Big Grin

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

By your example using 3 and 7...

The fact that 3 is three and 7 is seven never change. Neither becomes some different number just because they are used in a different equation. Their value remains the same regardless. The fact that they are odd numbers remain the same, regardless.

Your employing them (in an assinine example Big Grin) and saying that they are not even numbers DOES NOT disprove 3 and 7 as facts. What you just did was USE THEM IMPROPERLY and tried to make them meaning something they can't possibly mean. THE FACT THAT 3 & 7 are numbers never change. THAT IS STILL A FACT. What's FALSE is your claim about them - that they are EVEN numbers - not 3 & 7 in and of themselves.

There is also the occasion where mathematically or otherwise information is reported be true or a fact when it is not figured correctly. 2 + 1 = 4.
But that's beside the point.

What I'm saying is a FACT or FACTS don't become any less of a fact or truism, the CLAIMS that people make about certain "fact(s)" - i.e. the way the wish to use INFORMATION and what they say that INFORMATION is suppose to mean - is what OBSCURES THE TRUTH and what can be FALSE.

I wonder why you can't just lay out your thoughts like that if you want to be serious.

THERE NEVER WAS ANYTHING WRONG or flawed with Maya Angelou's statement. Nothing except you poor understanding of it or quest to generate much to do about nothing! Wink

Simple question:
What is different between what you think (what I quote at the end of my last post) and what she said?

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

quote:
What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't.
quote:
Both 3 and 7 are numbers. (statement of fact and true). Both 3 and 7 are even numbers. (statement of fact and a bald-face lie.

Hmmmmm........

Who said they ever thought or would think that 3 & 7 are EVEN numbers?
How the HELL is that a STATEMENT of FACT?

That's a blatant STATEMENT of FICTION!!!

Eek Kinda shoots a hole in your example, huh? Eek
quote:
JWC (Ex.

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin
quote:
Help me. I know you think I'm hopeless, but I'm willing to learn. Help me.


If my last post doesn't, I don't know what will.

Bartles & James! (Big Grin Hee! Hee! James!)

Thank You For Your Support!

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

"YOU HAVE SAID EXACTLY what Maya Angelou said in the first place." -- Nmaginate

I tried. I used the plural, as she did. You say it's disingenuous. But the phrase "truth and facts" is original to the statement. It's simple. Either facts are truth or they are not. Ms Angelou says there is a difference. In fact, she says, "There's a world of difference between truth and facts."

She is universal in her statement. My question remains: "If the statement is true, what is the difference?"

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't.
quote:
Both 3 and 7 are numbers. (statement of fact and true). Both 3 and 7 are even numbers. (statement of fact and a bald-face lie.

Hmmmmm........

_Who said they ever thought or would think that 3 & 7 are EVEN numbers?_
How the HELL is that a STATEMENT of FACT?

That's a blatant STATEMENT of FICTION!!!

Eek Kinda shoots a hole in your example, huh? Eek
quote:
JWC (Ex. http://www.basketballboards.net/forum/images/smilies/rocket.gif

Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin


No, Nmaginate it doesn't. It does prove that you do not understand the difference in the grammatical terms "fact" and "statement of fact."

I think you, honestly, believe I made the term up.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on November 05, 2003 at 07:00 AM.]
BUlllllllllllllllllSHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh*****tttt!!

Mr. Chester,

} THAT "3 & 7 are EVEN numbers..."

Is neither a FACT or STATEMENT OF FACT.
You really ought to quit DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE.

NO! I do not think you made the phrase up - statement of fact. I asked you to explain the distinction which, of course, I never got. So, I guess I will have to say that you MADE UP some arbitrary meaning that you cannot explain because you haven't and apparently won't. Apparently, I DON'T UNDERSTAND "the grammatical terms" because you have not explained them. (I fail to see what's grammatical about them... but that's not the point.)

3 & 7 are EVEN numbers IS NOT... is not FACTUAL on any level, said no matter how whether in a "statement" as a "statement" or not.

You need to check and come up with better examples. I think this ** LINK ** will bear out that you made a poor example by using 3 & 7 and trying to say that "THEY ARE EVEN NUMBERS" constitutes a Statement Of Fact. In order for that to be "true" somewhere at some point & time SOMEONE would have actually had to believe that which is why I asked:

WHO IN THE HELL HAS EVER SAID OR EVER THOUGHT THAT?

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
BUlllllllllllllllllSHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh*****tttt!!

Mr. Chester,

} THAT "3 & 7 are EVEN numbers..."

Is neither a FACT or STATEMENT OF FACT.
You really ought to quit DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE.

I again (humbly) submit that it is a "statement of fact", and a lie. And, I told it.

NO! I do not think you made the phrase up - statement of fact. I asked you to explain the distinction which, of course, I never got. So, I guess I will have to say that you MADE UP some arbitrary meaning that you cannot explain because you haven't and apparently won't. Apparently, I DON'T UNDERSTAND "the grammatical terms" because you have not explained them. (I fail to see what's grammatical about them... but that's not the point.)

Okay. Okay. I'll explain. A "statement of fact" is: A statement made as a fact, and may be true or false. The statement "3 and 7 are even numbers." is a statement of fact that is a lie.

3 & 7 are EVEN numbers IS NOT... is not FACTUAL on any level, said no matter how whether in a "statement" as a "statement" or not.

You are entitled to your opinion. Consult your nearest knowledgeable person on English grammar if you want an outside source. Unless of course you consider yourself as sufficient.

You need to check and come up with better examples. I think this http://www.way.peachnet.edu/ismt/fact.htm will bear out that you made a poor example by using 3 & 7 and trying to say that "THEY ARE EVEN NUMBERS" constitutes a Statement Of Fact. In order for that to be "true" somewhere at some point & time SOMEONE would have actually had to believe that which is why I asked:

WHO IN THE HELL HAS EVER SAID OR EVER THOUGHT THAT?

This isn't about belief, or endorsement. You have missed the boat here, Nmaginate. If I knew where to refer you for rules and standards of debate, I would. Maybe a keyword search on "debate" would work.

PEACE

Jim Chester

________________________________________________________________
_ There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth. _- Maya Angelou




You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
BUlllllllllllllllllSHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhh*****tttt!!

Mr. Chester,

} THAT "3 & 7 are EVEN numbers..."

Is neither a FACT or STATEMENT OF FACT.
You really ought to quit DEFENDING THE INDEFENSIBLE.

I, humbly of course, disagree. It is both a "statement of fact" and a lie, AND I told it.

NO! I do not think you made the phrase up - statement of fact. I asked you to explain the distinction which, of course, I never got. So, I guess I will have to say that you MADE UP some arbitrary meaning that you cannot explain because you haven't and apparently won't. Apparently, I DON'T UNDERSTAND "the grammatical terms" because you have not explained them. (I fail to see what's grammatical about them... but that's not the point.)

3 & 7 are EVEN numbers IS NOT... is not FACTUAL on any level, said no matter how whether in a "statement" as a "statement" or not.

You need to check and come up with better examples. I think this http://www.way.peachnet.edu/ismt/fact.htm will bear out that you made a poor example by using 3 & 7 and trying to say that "THEY ARE EVEN NUMBERS" constitutes a Statement Of Fact. In order for that to be "true" somewhere at some point & time SOMEONE would have actually had to believe that which is why I asked:

WHO IN THE HELL HAS EVER SAID OR EVER THOUGHT THAT?

Nmaginate, try a keyword search on "statement of fact"

I will look at your link.

PEACE

Jim Chester

________________________________________________________________
_ There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth. _- Maya Angelou




You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
Nmaginate:

I looked at your link. It says a "statement of fact" may be proven to be untrue. It also says a "statement of fact" may be proven to be true. I didn't see anything about endorsement, or anyone having to believe it.

But apparently your source thinks a "statement of fact" is real. Too.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
I should stay out of this thread because it's so hairsplitting and obtuse...

But Mr. Chester, a statement of fact cannot be false. If a statement is false, it can't be a statement of fact. A false statement can be a statement of information presented as fact, but if the statement is false, by definition it is not a statement of fact. A fact is a piece of info that is the case.

As for Maya Angelou's quote, I don't know if I agree with her that there's a "world of difference" between truth and fact, but there's a world of difference between my true love for Maya and the fact that I will never have her in my life... (ahh, if I were only 40 years older...)

But back on a now-defunct website called the Black World Today, there was a poster who had this pathetic habit of trying to use $50 words that he didn't understand how to use. His big thing was exposing "veracious xenophobes;" what he meant was "people who were truly racist (or xenophobic). But you can't use "veracious" to mean "true" in that context. Although technically they were synonyms, they don't have the exact same meaning, or the exact same uses.

What I learned from this guys horrendous posts was that there are relatively few true synonyms. This is my long-winded way of saying that "truth" and "fact" are likely different concepts just on that basis.

Although I could think about it more, at first blush it feels to me like truth is deeper than fact. Truth is a quality; fact is a thing.
Missed the boat??? JWC, you're not even at the harbor!!

READ THE LINK and understand what the HELL grammar is!!

Yes a "STATEMENT OF FACT" can be false but that comes after it is PROVEN to be so after investigation. There's no investigation needed for your LAME example! It was FALSE on it's FACE!

READ THE LINK... it has a very simple example if you follow it.
quote:
A "statement of fact" is: A statement made as a fact, and may be true or false.

Mr. Chester,

You have already said that. That does not explain how it can be either true or false. Your example definitely doesn't pass muster. You must demostrate by way of example how that can be so - i.e. explain by issuing more than just a solitary statement that's suppose to represent how something stated as a fact can be presented as fact (and by extension believed to be so) when it is false.

You have missed the boat. I can't go around to NBA fans and claim that the colors of the Los Angeles Lakers are RED/BLACK and call that a statement of fact just because I can say it.

You, my friend like to lean to your own understanding. If I ever have any doubt or anyone doubting me I CHECK to make sure what I'm thinking has a basis.

Look for yourself:
quote:
FACTS
A fact is a statement that can be checked and proven through objective evidence. This evidence may be in the form of the testimony of witnesses, agreed-upon observations, or the written records of such testimony and observations. The statements of fact among your friend's comments are that he went to a science-fiction movie last night, that the movie was about aliens invading Earth, and that the aliens had green skin and forked tongues. If you wanted to, you could check the truth of all these statements by questioning witnesses or watching the movie yourself...

Other Points About Fact and Opinion
There are several added points to keep in mind when distinguishing fact from opinion.

1. Statements of fact may be found to be untrue...
    (ESPECIALLY in science and mathematics! ed.) Suppose you went to the science fiction movie your friend spoke of and discovered the aliens actually had blue rather than green skin. (Perhaps your friend is color-blind.) You would then call his statement an error, not a fact. Sometimes, then, in the process of checking out whether a statement of fact is true, you will learn that it is not true, that it is not a fact at all. It was once considered to be a fact that the world was flat, but that "fact" also turned out to be an error.

quote:
Although I could think about it more, at first blush it feels to me like truth is deeper than fact. Truth is a quality; fact is a thing.

I've said as much...

JWC... STOP BEING DISINGENUOUS read it all.

Again, how do you figure you are saying something different from Maya Angelou? A "world of difference" not withstanding?

Why is it that I always have to find and interpret definitions for you 'cause you tend to misuse them so haphazardly?
quote:
I looked at your link. It says a "statement of fact" may be proven to be untrue. It also says a "statement of fact" may be proven to be true. I didn't see anything about endorsement, or anyone having to believe it.
3 & 7 = EVEN numbers...

Is there any PROOF need for that one way or the other? Rather, Does that statement of yours necessitates being PROVEN true or false?
(AKA being VERIFIED)
quote:
But apparently your source thinks a "statement of fact" is real. Too.

What the HELL is that suppose to mean?
You speculated that I thought you was making it up. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS!
quote:
It was once considered to be a fact that the world was flat, but that "fact" also turned out to be an error.

That's right from the LINK!!
Substitute the word BELIEVED and I dare say even ENDORSED for the word CONSIDERED and you will see that what qualifies or rather solidifies a statement as a STATEMENT OF FACT is it passing scrutiny and verification.

Statements of fact [b]may be found to be untrue[/b] (ESPECIALLY in science and mathematics! ed.)
  • Suppose you went to the science fiction movie your friend spoke of and discovered the aliens actually had blue rather than green skin.

    (Perhaps your friend is color-blind.)

  • You would then call his statement an error, not a fact.
It goes without saying that following the Movie Story Line given by this friend that until you happen to verify his statements about the Movie you would have had no choice but to BELIEVE that the Aliens skin was green because such a innocuous claim like that without prior knowledge to the contrary would hardly cause an alarm or reason not to believe it as a STATEMENT OF FACT.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Missed the boat??? JWC, you're not even at the harbor!!

READ THE LINK and understand what the HELL grammar is!!

Yes a "STATEMENT OF FACT" can be false but that comes after it is PROVEN to be so after investigation. There's no investigation needed for your LAME example! It was FALSE on it's FACE!

You are making this awfully easy. You are saying "it" is not false until an investigation has been done. Please tell me you don't mean it was true before?

READ THE LINK... it has a very simple example if you follow it.
quote:
A "statement of fact" is: A statement made as a fact, and may be true or false.



Mr. Chester,

You have already said that. That does not explain how it can be either true or false. Your example definitely doesn't pass muster. You must demostrate by way of example how that can be so - i.e. explain by issuing more than just a solitary statement that's suppose to represent how something stated as a fact can be presented as fact (and by extension believed to be so) when it is false.

That is why it IS a statement-of-fact. It is not intended to be an explanation, or NEED explanation. THAT IS WHY IT IS A STATEMENT-OF-FACT.

You have missed the boat. I can't go around to NBA fans and claim that the colors of the Los Angeles Lakers are RED/BLACK and call that a statement of fact just because I can say it.

Yes you can. You have got to understand that a "statement-of-fact" is a term, a grammatical term, to identify a kind of comment. Regardless of its content. Without regard to its authenticity. The team colors of the Los Angeles Lakers are red and black. That...is a "statement-of-fact." It may be sad. It may be true. It may be false. But it remains a "statement-of-fact."

You, my friend like to lean to your own understanding. If I ever have any doubt or anyone doubting me I CHECK to make sure what I'm thinking has a basis.

I did with this issue when I was being graded. I passed. With an "A" I might add.

Look for yourself:
quote:
_FACTS _
A fact is a statement that can be checked and proven through objective evidence. This evidence may be in the form of the testimony of witnesses, agreed-upon observations, or the written records of such testimony and observations. The statements of fact among your friend's comments are that he went to a science-fiction movie last night, that the movie was about aliens invading Earth, and that the aliens had green skin and forked tongues. If you wanted to, you could check the truth of all these statements by questioning witnesses or watching the movie yourself...

I read that. You can apply that to your statement about the Lakers' colors. A statement-of-fact."

_Other Points About Fact and Opinion _
There are several added points to keep in mind when distinguishing fact from opinion.

1. Statements of fact may be found to be untrue...(ESPECIALLY in science and mathematics! ed.) Suppose you went to the science fiction movie your friend spoke of and discovered the aliens actually had blue rather than green skin. (Perhaps your friend is color-blind.) You would then call his statement an error, not a fact. Sometimes, then, _in the process of checking out whether a statement of fact is true, you will learn that it is not true,_ that it is not a fact at all. It was once considered to be a fact that the world was flat, but that "fact" also turned out to be an error.



I read all of that too.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Although I could think about it more, at first blush it feels to me like truth is deeper than fact. Truth is a quality; fact is a thing.

I've said as much...

JWC... STOP BEING DISINGENUOUS read it all.

I DID. I DID. HONEST.

Again, how do you figure you are saying something different from Maya Angelou? A "world of difference" not withstanding?

I posed a question. It's in the title of the thread. It questions "facts" as opposed to truth. I ask further: "Is truth different from fact? or facts, if you insist. It makes no difference to the question. I really thought I was "keeping it simple." You, clearly, see some "extenuating circumstanes."

Why is it that I always have to find and interpret definitions for you 'cause you tend to misuse them so haphazardly?


I don't know. I think you are looking for something that fits your interpretation of whatever is at issue.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
I looked at your link. It says a "statement of fact" may be proven to be untrue. It also says a "statement of fact" may be proven to be true. I didn't see anything about endorsement, or anyone having to believe it.
3 & 7 = EVEN numbers...

Is there any PROOF need for that one way or the other?

Only if there is a challenge. Or fear on the part of the speaker.

Rather, Does that statement of yours necessitates being PROVEN true or false?

No. It is what it is. I said it was a "bald-faced" lie. What do ou say?

(AKA being VERIFIED)
quote:
But apparently your source thinks a "statement of fact" is real. Too.


I don't go to "sources" for somthing as rudimentary as this. I am my "source", and a "statement-of-fact" is real. Even your source says that.

What the HELL is that suppose to mean?
You speculated that I thought you was making it up. THOSE ARE YOUR WORDS!
quote:
It was once considered to be a fact that the world was flat, but that "fact" also turned out to be an error.

That's right from the LINK!!

And, today, I tell you citizens, "Don't you know the truth? The world is flat! Venture not to its edge for surely, one slip and thou willst fall over its edge into oblivion." There are at least two statements of fact there. For me to say that today is a bald-faced lie, because I know it is not true. For a person to have said the same thing in the 15th Century it was an error. It was the state of knowledge for the day.

Substitute the word BELIEVED and I dare say even ENDORSED for the word CONSIDERED and you will see that what qualifies or rather solidifies a statement as a STATEMENT OF FACT is it passing scrutiny and verification.

Why substitute anything. If it is a valid source, surely what is intended would be stated.


_Statements of fact may be found_ to be untrue (ESPECIALLY in science and mathematics! ed.) + Suppose you went to the science fiction movie your friend spoke of and discovered the aliens actually had blue rather than green skin.

(Perhaps your friend is color-blind.)

+ _You would then call his statement an error, not a fact._ It goes without saying that following the Movie Story Line given by this friend that until you happen to verify his statements about the Movie you would have had no choice but to BELIEVE that the Aliens skin was green because such a innocuous claim like that without prior knowledge to the contrary would hardly cause an alarm or reason not to believe it as a STATEMENT OF FACT.


And the friend's original statement was still a statement-of-fact." The discovery only proved it was an untrue statement-of-fact.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on November 06, 2003 at 12:28 AM.]
I'll make it simple and leave you with ONE question you seem to avoid in all your EVASIONS:

What is different in what you have said and what Maya Angelou's quote says?

To me you seem to have come around to say the exact same thing with an exception of verbiage.
Can you illustrate how your position differs from her's?

Oops!!!!!!!!!! (I can't help it! Roll Eyes)

BTW, I would have nothing to say if you didn't act like the guy VOX described... And, of course, you wouldn't disappoint me with your usual speaking from a position of IGNORANCE by saying (like a D.A.) "[it doesn't] NEED EXPLANATION"...

You are one of those people who either pretend they know something and don't have the common sense to understand exactly what they "think" they know means or how it is so... so, of course, by default because of your own lack of understanding and how to articulate the underlying ideas you think NO EXPLANATION is NEEDED. Either that OR you are a person who once they are shown that they are in error don't have the INTERGRITY when it comes to "an ISSUE OF FACT" Big Grin to desist from upholding a flawed position for the sake of saving face.

I swear Mr. Chester, you act like you can't understand plain F*ckin' English sometimes for trying to skip over things that exposes your IGNORANCE! BTW, I'm not impressed by whatever "A's" you got in classes... There are Professor's who have knowledge but don't know how to teach!

WHY! Because they don't know how to articulate and EXPLAIN exactly how you arrive at certain ideas and thoughts EFFECTIVELY.... Seems you would rank very HIGH in that school!

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

quote:
And the friend's original statement was still a statement-of-fact." The discovery only proved it was an untrue statement-of-fact.


Look, Chester...

Simple exercise. Compare your 3&7 (bold-faced Lie) "STATEMENT OF FACT" to "THE FRIEND's" Statement of "Fact" about the Movie. And while you at it try not to be so damn selective in your reading of "the source".
quote:
Suppose you went to the science fiction movie your friend spoke of and discovered the aliens actually had blue rather than green skin.
(Perhaps your friend is color-blind.)

You would then call his statement an error, ***not a fact***.

There is no such thing as an "untrue" Statement of Fact. Both from the source and LOGICALLY that is ridiculous.

Since YOU WILL FEIGN IGNORANCE when it comes to COMPARING your flawed example with the one from the source I listed. I will repeat for the 100000 time!!

YOUR EXAMPLE WAS FALSE ON IT'S FACE!
The Friend's report from the Movie was not and had all appearances of being true.

3 & 7 = EVEN numbers .... NEVER!!! had any APPEARANCE of being TRUE, FACT, believable, etc. - aka that was never... NEVER!!! a STATEMENT OF FACT!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I'll make it simple and leave you with ONE question you seem to avoid in all your EVASIONS:

_What is different in what you have said and what Maya Angelou's quote says?_

To me you seem to have come around to say the exact same thing with an exception of verbiage.
Can you illustrate how your position differs from her's?

Oops!!!!!!!!!! (I can't help it! Roll Eyes)

For immediate reference, and the sake of getting it right, I am bringing my original post into this response:
________________________________________________
This is currently being used as a signature by Nmaginate.

_ There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth. _- Maya Angelou




Certainly, the osurce has stature. One of my favorite people. Hearing her in person is exhilarating.

But is she right?

Is fact different from truth? That is what is implied in the statement. Can fact obscure what is true?

Isn't what is true, fact?

Isn't fact what is true?

I would not be concerned if the statement were: "A statement of fact can obscure the truth." Obviously, a statement of fact can be a bald-faced lie. But that's not what she said.

So, do you call the validity of a statement by such a prestigeous person into question? Clearly, the anser is, "Yes."

If indeed there is a "world of difference between truth and facts", what is it?
________________________________________________

I say, "What is fact is truth." Ms Angelou stated "...there is a world of difference between truth and facts."

BTW, I would have nothing to say if you didn't act like the guy VOX described... And, of course, you wouldn't disappoint me with your usual speaking from a position of IGNORANCE by saying (like a D.A.) "[it doesn't] NEED EXPLANATION"...

I don't know Vox's "guy."

You are one of those people who either pretend they know something and don't have the common sense to understand exactly what they "think" they know means or how it is so... so, of course, by default because of your own lack of understanding and how to articulate the underlying ideas you think NO EXPLANATION is NEEDED. Either that OR you are a person who once they are shown that they are in error don't have the INTERGRITY when it comes to "an ISSUE OF FACT" Big Grin to desist from upholding a flawed position for the sake of saving face.

Thanks for your assessment. It is interstting.

I swear Mr. Chester, you act like you can't understand plain F*ckin' English sometimes for trying to skip over things that exposes your IGNORANCE! BTW, I'm not impressed by whatever "A's" you got in classes... There are Professor's who have knowledge but don't know how to teach!

How did I know you would use that to say I was trying to impress. Using your technique: Who said it was in a class. There are other situations in which a person is graded. That's just your BLIND ASSumption.

WHY! Because they don't know how to articulate and EXPLAIN exactly how you arrive at certain ideas and thoughts EFFECTIVELY.... Seems you would rank very HIGH in that school!

I hope my answer to your question at the beginning of this post was complete. If it was less, I am glad to try to make it better.

________________________________________________________________
_ There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth. _- Maya Angelou

[/QUOTE]

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
I will ask you what is the difference between this defining statement of yours and Maya's statement besides semantics?
quote:
What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't.

Notice you did not say, "Some things called STATEMENTS of FACT(s) really aren't [facts]" By not PHRASING IT THAT WAY you directly contradict your own supposition:
    I would not be concerned if the statement were:
    "A statement of fact can obscure the truth."
Notice also in light of our latest conflict over your 3&7 example that your statement [in bold] specifies that "SOME THINGS CALLED or THOUGHT to be FACTS"..... Hmmmm....

I won't even ask how is it that your Example is really suppose to be THOUGHT to be "fact"... I won't say that I have challenged it as FALSE on its FACE because it was perhaps NEVER (and certainly not now) THOUGHT to be a fact... Nor will I say that something THOUGHT to be a fact is equivalent to something BELIEVED to be a fact in this case...

Instead, I will not even focus on the FACT that you have only characterized a STATEMENT OF FACT as solely something that someone has CALLED or claimed to be a fact. No, all I will do is, again, ask you to differentiate between the core meaning [NOT THE USE OF SOME GOT DAMN WORDS IN A CERTAIN M*F* WAY] of your statement and Maya's...
quote:
What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't. - JWC

brocool Psssssssssssssssssttttttt!!
You are saying and communicating the same thing.

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

quote:
I say, "What is fact is truth."

<<< okay now juxtapose that and reconcile that with your other statement >>>

What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't.

How is it that you who claim to have Knowledge cannot UNDERSTAND?

You are hung up on the use of words here and nothing else. Because you use or define the terms involved a certain way you handicap yourself from understanding what Maya is trying to communicate.

And actually, she is saying a whole lot more than what you seem capable though her statement does incorporate your finite position.
You're just the leading candidate for the STUCK ON STUPID AWARD because of you can't intuit what someone else means because they don't phrase things the way you do. If that's a learning disability of yours then I apoligize but it is your responsibility before you take issue with someone's statement to understand what they mean by understand the terms they use in the way they use them and NOT you.

I have explained exactly what her statement meant long ago but that went right over your head like most things seem to.

Using your statement I will illustrate how you are saying something very similar to Maya...
TELL ME IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS OR NOT:
    "some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't"... AND[Those kind of facts] CAN OBSCURE TRUTH!
Also... I will direct you to reveiw my November 04, 2003 09:42 AM post for my interpretation of what Maya means. Perhaps, if you want to take issue with her statement tell me how what I said there is problematic if at all.

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

quote:
I say, "What is fact is truth."

<<< okay now juxtapose that and reconcile that with your other statement >>>

What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't.

How is it that you who claim to have Knowledge cannot UNDERSTAND?

You are hung up on the use of words here and nothing else. Because you use or define the terms involved a certain way you handicap yourself from understanding what Maya is trying to communicate.

And actually, she is saying a whole lot more than what you seem capable though her statement does incorporate your finite position.
You're just the leading candidate for the STUCK ON STUPID AWARD because of you can't intuit what someone else means because they don't phrase things the way you do. If that's a learning disability of yours then I apoligize but it is your responsibility before you take issue with someone's statement to understand what they mean by understand the terms they use in the way they use them and NOT you.

I have explained exactly what her statement meant long ago but that went right over your head like most things seem to.

Using your statement I will illustrate how you are saying something very similar to Maya...
TELL ME IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS OR NOT:
    "some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't"... AND[Those kind of facts] CAN OBSCURE TRUTH!
Also... I will direct you to reveiw my November 04, 2003 09:42 AM post for my interpretation of what Maya means. Perhaps, if you want to take issue with her statement tell me how what I said there is problematic if at all.

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

quote:
I say, "What is fact is truth."

<<< okay now juxtapose that and reconcile that with your other statement >>>

What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't.

How is it that you who claim to have Knowledge cannot UNDERSTAND?

You are hung up on the use of words here and nothing else. Because you use or define the terms involved a certain way you handicap yourself from understanding what Maya is trying to communicate.

And actually, she is saying a whole lot more than what you seem capable though her statement does incorporate your finite position.
You're just the leading candidate for the STUCK ON STUPID AWARD because of you can't intuit what someone else means because they don't phrase things the way you do. If that's a learning disability of yours then I apoligize but it is your responsibility before you take issue with someone's statement to understand what they mean by understand the terms they use in the way they use them and NOT you.

I have explained exactly what her statement meant long ago but that went right over your head like most things seem to.

Using your statement I will illustrate how you are saying something very similar to Maya...
TELL ME IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS OR NOT:
    "some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't"... AND[Those kind of facts] CAN OBSCURE TRUTH!
Also... I will direct you to reveiw my November 04, 2003 09:42 AM post for my interpretation of what Maya means. Perhaps, if you want to take issue with her statement tell me how what I said there is problematic if at all.

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

quote:
I say, "What is fact is truth."

<<< okay now juxtapose that and reconcile that with your other statement >>>

What I am saying is that some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't.

How is it that you who claim to have Knowledge cannot UNDERSTAND?

You are hung up on the use of words here and nothing else. Because you use or define the terms involved a certain way you handicap yourself from understanding what Maya is trying to communicate.

And actually, she is saying a whole lot more than what you seem capable though her statement does incorporate your finite position.
You're just the leading candidate for the STUCK ON STUPID AWARD because of you can't intuit what someone else means because they don't phrase things the way you do. If that's a learning disability of yours then I apoligize but it is your responsibility before you take issue with someone's statement to understand what they mean by understand the terms they use in the way they use them and NOT you.

I have explained exactly what her statement meant long ago but that went right over your head like most things seem to.

Using your statement I will illustrate how you are saying something very similar to Maya...
TELL ME IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THIS OR NOT:
    "some things called, or thought to be, facts, aren't"... AND[Those kind of facts] CAN OBSCURE TRUTH!
Also... I will direct you to reveiw my November 04, 2003 09:42 AM post for my interpretation of what Maya means. Perhaps, if you want to take issue with her statement tell me how what I said there is problematic if at all.

______________________________________________________________
There's a world of difference between truth and facts.
Facts can obscure truth.
- Maya Angelou

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