Skip to main content

What do you think???

Education: then and now
Jan 12, 2006
by Thomas Sowell

Recent news that school children in Charlotte, North Carolina, had the highest test scores among children in big cities across the country had a special impact on me. Back in the late 1930s, I went to school in Charlotte and, while I don't know what the test scores were then, I do know that we were far behind the children going to school in New York.

That became painfully clear when my family moved north and I enrolled in a school in Harlem in 1939. From being the top student in my class down in North Carolina I was suddenly the bottom student in my class in Harlem -- and struggling to try to catch up.

Decades later, my research turned up the fact that the kids I couldn't keep up with in that school back then had an average IQ of 84. Contrary to fashionable beliefs, it was not the racial segregation that made the education inferior in Charlotte, since the school in Harlem was also a black school.


It was common in those days for a kid from the South to be set back a full year when he entered school in New York. The difference in educational standards was that great.

I had somehow persuaded the principal to let me be an exception. It was a mistake on his part and mine. I was clearly a year behind the kids who had gone to school in Harlem.

Three years later, I had caught up and pulled ahead, and was now assigned to a class for advanced students, where the average IQ was over 120.

That does not mean that IQs don't matter. It means that I had a lot of work to do to get my act together in the meantime, in order to overcome the disadvantage of an inferior education in North Carolina.

Fast forward a few more years. I am now in the Marine Corps, going through boot camp at Parris Island, South Carolina. When the mental test results from my platoon were tabulated, the man in charge expressed amazement at how many high scores there were.

"Where are you guys from?" he asked. "New York? Pennsylvania?"

We were from New York -- and the high quality of our schools at that time was undoubtedly a factor in the high test scores we made.

No one in those days would have thought that Charlotte schools would end up turning out better educated students than the schools in New York. I don't know what has happened in Charlotte but I do know what has happened in New York.

Some years ago, when I looked at the math textbooks that my nieces in Harlem were using, I discovered that they were being taught in the 11th grade what I had been taught in the 9th grade. Even if they were the best students around, they would still be two years behind -- with their chances in life correspondingly reduced.

New York City has two kinds of high school diplomas -- its own locally recognized diploma, that is not recognized by the state or by many colleges, and the state's Regents' diploma for high school graduates who have scored above a given level on the Regents' exam.

The Regents diploma is for students who are serious about going on to a good college. Only 9 percent of black students and 10 percent of Latino students receive Regents diplomas.

That a Southern city's school children would now top the list of big city test scores may be due to the fact that the South has not jumped on the bandwagon of the latest fads in education to the same extent as avant garde places like New York City, where spending per pupil is about 50 percent above the national average.

These fads now include the dogma that racial "diversity" improves education, as does emphasis on racial "identity." In reality, a recent study shows that black students who perform well in racially integrated schools are unpopular with their black classmates. They are accused of "acting white," a charge that can bring anything from ostracism to outright violence.

The same is not true to the same extent among blacks attending all-black schools. Hispanic students' popularity likewise falls off sharply -- even more so than among blacks -- as their grade-point average rises.

Is it surprising that white and Asian American children do better without these self-inflicted handicaps to academic achievement? Is it surprising that New York City schools are now paying the price for avant garde educational dogmas?

Sowell is a Rose and Milton Friedman Senior Fellow.
http://www.friedmanfoundation.org/Thomas
Last edited {1}
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:
Is it surprising that white and Asian American children do better without these self-inflicted handicaps to academic achievement?


No, because Black children are not White or Asian children. Black children are just as academically capable, smart, and competent as other children, but because they are Black, they are often times treated differently than other children, particularly in academic environments. Thus, whatever "academic handicaps" that Black students develop as result of past and present mistreatment is not "self-inflicted," but inflicted upon them by society. And this is what "racial identity education" seeks to address and ultimately eliminate: educational mistreatment and differential treatment. Mr. Sowell, racial identity education DOES NOT seek to make excuses for not learning, but to give EVERY child, regardless of their race or gender, an EQUAL opportunity to do their best. It's not enough to tell Black kids to pull themselves up by the bootstraps and "do like the smart Asian kids do." We must encourage Black students to do their best without making belittling comparisons.
Last edited {1}
LOL, Isome, you know this has been going on ever since slavery. Remember the old House Kneegrow who would put the fire out if the Massa's house caught on fire?

"We sick, bohs!"


Thomas Sowell is nothing more than a William F. Buckley-type dressed up in a Black man's body. He's nothing more than a tool for White Conservative Status-Quo defenders to go: "Hey look! This Nigra agrees with us! He sees the light in our reasoning. Why can't the rest of you Nigras be the same way? Why can't you aspire to be a credit to your race like this man? Racism is dead, maybe you all should stop complaining about our System, stop being 'lazy', take 7 jobs, STFU about racism and lick our boots. He did it, and you can too!"

(all he did was lick boot and STFU about racism, Affirmative Action got him ahead the rest of the way)


Thomas Sowell is an Uncle Tom of the worst kind: one who tries to intellectualize his self-loathing and slavic protection of a corrupt status quo that exploits and oppresses his own people, and tries to use pseudo-intellectualism to "prove" why it should remain that way. Then blames Black people for any problems in the System.

Sowell reminds me of that scene from "Don't Be A Menace While Drinking Your Juice In The Hood" where Bernie Mac played a self-hating Black cop and started loathing Shawn Wayans as he arrested him for being Black, "Goddamn nigger! I hate yo' skin, 'cuz it's Black! I even hate my gun, 'cuz it's black!"
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
Thomas Sowell is nothing more than a William F. Buckley-type dressed up in a Black man's body. He's nothing more than a tool for White Conservative Status-Quo defenders to go: "Hey look! This Nigra agrees with us! He sees the light in our reasoning. Why can't the rest of you Nigras be the same way?


That has actually happened to me!! I had a white co-worker barge into my office and proceed to explain to me that G.W. Bush was a genius, that I was single and in my office on memorial day because black values were defective, and all sorts of other things about black folk like I couldn't possibly know the subject better than her. * All the while, she was citing Thomas Sowell like he was the only negro worth reading or knowing anything about *.
quote:
It's really simple to explain: She's a moron herself.
I had a co-worker, a pretty "squared-away" guy... well, a guy that's pretty much a model employee come at me in much the same way your co-worker did.

I mean, here it was and otherwise smart and "good guy" coming at me saying some patently dumb shit about "[Black] people listen to leaders like Jesse Jackson... <*bullshit*><*bullshit*><*bullshit*>" when [1] He and I had never had a conversation about Jesse and [2] He and I had never had a conversation about politics per se, much less RACE in Politics. So, as a result, I just had to look at him or ignore him until he shut up.

Now, mind you, this is the same guy who wanted to blame Clinton for the moral decay in American society. So, I guess we are dealing with a class of MORONIC Lemmings who get their Talking Points from shit they see/hear on TV and act like that stuff amounts to their Marching Orders.

Now, this guy, this smart guy, academically hadn't achieved much and for damn sure no more than I have/had but for some reason he thought he had some wisdom to impart to me. And, again, considering the type of conversations we would have, mostly centered around job and family, much like you situation, apparently... this stuff just came right out of the blue.

I guess they just have things they have to get off their chests. *LOL*
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:
Thomas Sowell is nothing more than a William F. Buckley-type dressed up in a Black man's body. He's nothing more than a tool for White Conservative Status-Quo defenders to go: "Hey look! This Nigra agrees with us! He sees the light in our reasoning. Why can't the rest of you Nigras be the same way?


That has actually happened to me!! I had a white co-worker barge into my office and proceed to explain to me that G.W. Bush was a genius, that I was single and in my office on memorial day because black values were defective, and all sorts of other things about black folk like I couldn't possibly know the subject better than her. * All the while, she was citing Thomas Sowell like he was the only negro worth reading or knowing anything about *.


laugh

I've run into types like that too back in high school and now in college. I've had White kids (and adults) go on about how Affirmative Action and welfare make Minorities "lazy", and cite Black Conservatives.

Often times, I have no problem debunking them and using Black Progressives/Liberals to refute the Black Conservative rhetoric.


Ever notice that when these Status Quo-defenders are refuted, they get nasty? They start delving into racism, bigotry, sexism, or just start name-calling.

I really do believe that some elements of Conservatism appeal to baser elments of Human Nature (like the Capitalist myth that "Greed is good").
Ever notice that when these Status Quo-defenders are refuted, they get nasty? They start delving into racism, bigotry, sexism, or just start name-calling.---Empty Purnata

You have to realize that until Thomas Sowell, and others of similar persuasion, that person had no one.

Well...there was Booker T. and such.

When you take Sowell away, they are left with yelling and stamping their feet.

And cursing, and 'getting in your family'.

As a matter of fact, I think this piece is one of Dr. Sowell's more pragmatic efforts.

I was surprised.

What is there in his piece that is not true, or misrepresents?


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Black children are just as academically capable, smart, and competent as other children, but because they are Black, they are often times treated differently than other children, particularly in academic environments.


Are you saying that Dr. Sowell said otherwise (with respect to the first phrase of your response)?

Who are these people who are treating Black kids differently than these "OTHER CHILDREN"?

As our public school increase their REsegregation they are more likely to sit next to other Black kids and increasingly be taught by Black teachers.


I can speak from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE about how more than 20 years ago when I was in high school I had the dual roll of being in the "Rapid Track" in my high school AND being the starting center on my high school basketball team. My team mates who were NOT in the "rapid" group resented the fact that the coach put me in the starting spot rather than "THEIR BOY" who was more down with them. This conflict was more evidence of the general resentment between the group of students who had AP classes and those who didn't take their education as seriously.

The funny thing is the guy who they wanted to start in my place was KICKED OFF OF THE TEAM after about 3 games after a series of disciplinary infractions both in the classroom and during practice.

I WAS A VICTIM OF "DIFFERENT TREATMENT". I have been dealing with pressures "to be SMART or COOL" all of my academic career.

Our 10 year H.S. reunion showed me how fortunate I was to have the parents that I did to guide me. Many of these same "big men on campus" in the context of high school and the MENTALITY that runs throughout had seemingly been "pimp smaked" by life's realities.

In hindsight I came to the understanding that our team had so many INTERNAL BATTLES among each other that no one provided leadership and had us to fight for the common goal of winning for the entire team which would have allowed each of us to bury our differences and celebrate our common success. This message board has many of the same disfunction that I saw on my high school basketball team. Rather than addressing some clear failures of the "team" many of you would rather heap blame on a few people, tearing them down rather than putting forth some EFFECTIVE strategies for WINNING the race.

The state of academics in our community is metaphorically represented as a river which has massive pollution at it's estuary but which started from a clean spring at it's source. All of the pollution and contimination that was thrown into the river as it made it's way allowed it to become what it is today. Those who are SERIOUS about cleaning up the river will work to keep the water pure all along the way. Focusing on how 'your enemy' is contaiminating your river while you turn your head to the chemical waste that 'your friends' are putting in STILL LEADS TO A POLLUTED RIVER
quote:
Thomas Sowell is nothing more than a William F. Buckley-type dressed up in a Black man's body. He's nothing more than a tool for White Conservative Status-Quo defenders to go


The TACTIC OF THE KNEEGROW..........arrange things so that a LABEL can be placed on a person and then characterize the person via the LABEL.

All words that he says - EVEN THE ONE'S THAT YOU AGREE WITH - will be discounted because they have been produced by the person who holds this label.

All DEBATE ENDS. Very effective strategy Empty.


for the record the label that I often use (Black Quasi-Socialist Progressive Fundamentalist) is a operative description that the actions of those who are addressed as such bear out WITH THEIR EXPRESSIONS OF THEIR IDEOLOGY.

It's funny who it is said that "Sowell sounds like a White Conservative" but these same people fail to note how much they sound like White Socialist leaning individuals who don't believe that Black people will ever order ourselves accordingly that we might acheive a higher end. The are their to provide us ABUNDANT HELP and to receive support for their goals of power in return. As long as the KNEEGROW doesn't express any sentiments for INDEPENDENCE (ex: Reparations) the White Socialist will continue in the Superior/Subordinate orientation that favors him so.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
The TACTIC OF THE KNEEGROW..........arrange things so that a LABEL can be placed on a person and then characterize the person via the LABEL.
.................All DEBATE ENDS. Very effective strategy Empty.


You're so sensitive Frown So I'll try not to call you any more names. Anyway, you have something of a point.

quote:

It's funny who it is said that "Sowell sounds like a White Conservative" but these same people fail to note how much they sound like White Socialist leaning individuals


The key difference - which you have characteristically failed to note - is that white conservatives have a long history of active antagonism against black interests. Remember that Ronald Reagan began his first presidential campaign where? Ever hear of Philadelphia, Mississippi? For the bonus, do you know the only thing that town is famous for?

Keep learning. You might amount to something yet, boy.
quote:
The key difference - which you have characteristically failed to note - is that white conservatives have a long history of active antagonism against black interests.
And with that noted, CON-Feed? What do
"White Socialist leaning individuals" sound like and why in the hell does your WHITE ASS think your issues with "socialists", etc. resonates here?

So, there you go. Put up or SHUT THE FUCK UP!!
You have to demonstrate how this ERRONEOUS idea, your assertion that people here "sound like White Socialist leaning individuals"... how sounding like White Socialists (name five such, prominent and public and actual White Socialist or STFU) is as bad or worst than sounding like White [RACIST] CONservatives.

Now, go ahead and run from this thread too (like all the others when you get challenged). You've been issued your Weasel Walking Papers.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
The key difference - which you have characteristically failed to note - is that white conservatives have a long history of active antagonism against black interests. Remember that Ronald Reagan began his first presidential campaign where? Ever hear of Philadelphia, Mississippi? For the bonus, do you know the only thing that town is famous for?

Keep learning. You might amount to something yet, boy.


NOT another RONALD REAGAN KICKED OFF HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IN PHILADELPHIA MS claim.

I have posted the TEXT AND VERSE OF HIS WORDS several times and asked anyone to detail for me the RACISM in his speech there.

They all resort to the SYMBOLISM angle in which a visit to Philly MS is RACIST.

I went to an Indian Gaming casino in that city. THERE ARE SEEMINGLY NOW MORE BLACKS LIVING IN THIS CITY THAN WHITE. Is it RACIST for me to go there?


%%%%%

DisHonestBrother:

Black people have had a problem with RACIST White people not just "CONSERVATIVE whites".

Thomas Jefferson was a LIBERAL AND A RACIST to the core. Woodrow Wilson paved the way for child labor laws and the early framework for Social Security. FDR locked up all Japanese in this country.

The harm done to us by Liberal Whites who on the inside don't believe that Black people are their equals and who offer abundant help just as our muscles as a people are getting strong enough to power us on our own seek to MAINTAIN THEIR INFLUENCE UPON US and prevent us from CONSTRUCTING A PROCESS FOR PROBLEM SOLIVING ON OUR OWN.

These people who come with TOO MUCH HELP because of their racist notions that we are not capable are as harmful as those who don't give any because of their racism.

The native Americans thought that the blankets that were given to keep them warm was a jesture of GOODWILL.
quote:
As long as the KNEEGROW doesn't express any sentiments for INDEPENDENCE (ex: Reparations) the White Socialist will continue in the Superior/Subordinate orientation that favors him so.
SELF-HATRED...

Name those "Black Quasi-Socialist Progressive Fundamentalists" here who are opposed to or otherwise adverse to such sentiments of Independence a la Reparations, etc.

There's a whole Reparations Forum where a number of those whom you LABEL "BLPF" (one fucked up label, as a matter of fact) have expressed such a desire for "independence" yet you still think your BS WHITE BOY "socialist" RED SCARE tactic has some resonance.

Please stop the SELF-HATRED.
quote:

NOT another RONALD REAGAN KICKED OFF HIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN IN PHILADELPHIA MS claim.


Un-CON-structive Feedback, that's not a claim. That's a fact. Do you dispute its accuracy?

quote:

I have posted the TEXT AND VERSE OF HIS WORDS several times and asked anyone to detail for me the RACISM in his speech there.


Only an idiot would be ignorant of the significance of the statement "I believe in states' rights" within the context of American political life. But then I promised not to call you any names.

quote:

They all resort to the SYMBOLISM angle in which a visit to Philly MS is RACIST.


It wasn't just a 'visit'. It was the first stop in a * Presidential Campaign * to a po dump town only known for one goddamned thing.

quote:

Black people have had a problem with RACIST White people not just "CONSERVATIVE whites".

The harm done to us by Liberal Whites who on the inside don't believe that Black people are their equals and who offer abundant help just as our muscles as a people are getting strong enough to power us on our own seek to MAINTAIN THEIR INFLUENCE UPON US and prevent us from CONSTRUCTING A PROCESS FOR PROBLEM SOLIVING ON OUR OWN.

These people who come with TOO MUCH HELP because of their racist notions that we are not capable are as harmful as those who don't give any because of their racism.

The native Americans thought that the blankets that were given to keep them warm was a jesture of GOODWILL.


You know...I almost agree with this statement. I won't lie. I've had my problems with some white liberals. But you know I'd rather try to educate those who are willing and capable of being educated than work side by side with those who have open contempt for me. You find Anti-Racism campaigns not among white conservatives but among white liberals.

You lost me with the final statement. As usual, you mix apples and oranges in making your case. The blankets given were not a good will gesture - even one tainted with some racist notions. That was an act of * intentional * malice. Are you making that case for the Liberal agenda?

Ah, F*ck it. I'm backing off my promise not to call you names. It's too much fun. Besides, you deserve most of the names people throw your way.
Reading for COMPREHENSION is fundamental.

I SAID FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE WHITE LIBERAL RACIST as long as the Black man does not express any notions of REAL INDEPEDENCE - such as the drive for REPARATIONS - then the Black man will remain in the good graces of the White Protective Liberal.

When Ted Kennedy is "attacking the system" on behalf of the BQPF he is a friend who will help them acheive their goals WITHIN THE SYSTEM ITSELF.

When the issue of REPARATIONS comes about it is TED KENNEDY that is PART OF THE SYSTEM that Black people are demanding funds (and other initiatives) from. Black people want the FUNDS because of the past actions of the country in which this country OWES BLACKS these funds and thus BLACK PEOPLE CAN SPEND THIS MONEY AS THEY PLEASE. This causes a CONFLICT with White Liberals. This shows Blacks as seeking to come out from under their protectorate and express SELF DETERMINATION.

These liberal Whites will get the loyal Black Democrats to keep the rebels in line. They will remind them of all that the party has done for "you people". They will tell them how bad the Republcians have treated them and ask if Blacks would really withstand the onslought of attacks by Republicans without the help of the White Liberal that is providing guidance.

The White Liberal must remind Blacks how weak we are and are in need of them.
They can never allow Black people to form a vision of the future in which Black people, having constructed our own economic, military and cultural power NOW STAND AS EQUALS WITH THEM


The Black Quasi-Socialist Progressive Fundamentals knows that just as China standing tall is a threat to America, if Black people were to order ourselves in a similar manner WE would be seen as a threat to the 'king of the hill', America.

Today so many in the BQPF community have assimilated and they sound just like a xenophobic capitalist when it comes to protecting the American economy from foreign competition for jobs.

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×