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Reference:
The black church seldom calls unmarried clergy.



What do you mean by "call"??    You mean, like, "assign" a certain pastor to a church??  Or are you saying that they should be married first, before they're given (elevated) to a high post (such as "Bishop")??

And ... while I can understand the 'rationale' (as you've explained it) behind that kind of decision-making process ... it's still rather ... disturbing ... to me that such politics would come into play when it relates to a spiritual leader. 

I mean ... I just think a man (or woman's) spiritual qualities should be the first indicator by which to choose him (or her) to be a spiritual guider.  Whether or not they're married (or the suspicion of somebody 'going after' somebody else within the church) is already an indictment of the sanctity (or lack thereof) of what the church is supposed to be about!!

I mean ... if you can't start with the trust/faith that everybody is gonna do the right thing .... (clergy and congregation alike!) ... by not doing the wrong thing, at the very least ... they it seems to me you're already starting the process 'behind the 8 ball'!!

Again ... if you can't trust the clergy (and it sounds like even the church doesn't do so, itself?) ... who are you supposed to trust?? 
ER said
"What do you mean by "call"??    You mean, like, "assign" a certain pastor to a church??"
Yes - or more specifically, to choose a pastor or minister.

With respect to your later concerns, the gospel does say that disciples are to be as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves. (Mt 10:16) There is the ideal and then there is the real. I think that in some respects, churches get into trouble because they do not want to confront the real. Clergy are first and foremost human beings, with the potential failings of any other person, and churches do well to show caution in calling their ministers as well as with ministerial oversight.

Most black churches do a rather poor job of pastoral education and screening. Many of the white mainline churches put potential clergy through psychological and vocational screening. Most have to also undergo training in clinical counseling procedures and protocols as part of their education. This is not the case with black churches.

Black churches in the main also tend to be charisma/ego driven institutions, with charisma being seen as synonymous with being "gifted by god" for the ministry. As I went to a predominantly white seminary that had historical ties to the Presbyterian church, I had courses in clinical pastoral education where I was closely supervised. We were instructed in the same practices as licensed therapists and counselors. I was instructed never, ever be alone with just one congregant (male or female) in a private situation. None of this was required, however, for my ordination.

Again, most black clergy are not subject to such training, direction, or instruction. Thus, those with the best of intentions can walk into situations blind and naive. Others, will use the culture of the black church and the community to fulfill their base desires and aspirations.
Quote by Koco; "This above statement reminds me of that senator[I think] or somebody close to Bush or maybe Obama...[I can't remember this person's name]...who was adamantly AGAINST gays and said it PUBLICLY"...





Former Republican National Committee chairman Ken Mehlman


Top Bush Official Reveals He's Gay.


Former Republican National Committee chairman Ken Mehlman, the former campaign manager for President George W. Bush's 2004 re-election bid, has told his family and colleagues that he is gay.



Mehlman arrived at this conclusion about his identity fairly recently, he said in an interview. He agreed to answer a reporter's questions, he said, because, now in private life, he wants to become an advocate for gay marriage and anticipated that questions would arise about his participation in a late-September fundraiser for the American Foundation for Equal Rights (AFER), the group that supported the legal challenge to California's ballot initiative against gay marriage, Proposition 8.

"It's taken me 43 years to get comfortable with this part of my life," said Mehlman, now an executive vice-president with the New York City-based private equity firm, KKR. "Everybody has their own path to travel, their own journey, and for me, over the past few months, I've told my family, friends, former colleagues, and current colleagues, and they've been wonderful and supportive. The process has been something that's made me a happier and better person. It's something I wish I had done years ago."

Privately, in off-the-record conversations with this reporter over the years, Mehlman voiced support for civil unions and told of how, in private discussions with senior Republican officials, he beat back efforts to attack same-sex marriage. He insisted, too, that President Bush "was no homophobe." He often wondered why gay voters never formed common cause with Republican opponents of Islamic jihad, which he called "the greatest anti-gay force in the world right now."
Mehlman's leadership positions in the GOP came at a time when the party was stepping up its anti-gay activities -- such as the distribution in West Virginia in 2006 of literature linking homosexuality to atheism, or the less-than-subtle, coded language in the party's platform ("Attempts to redefine marriage in a single state or city could have serious consequences throughout the country..."). Mehlman said at the time that he could not, as an individual Republican, go against the party consensus. He was aware that Karl Rove, President Bush's chief strategic adviser, had been working with Republicans to make sure that anti-gay initiatives and referenda would appear on November ballots in 2004 and 2006 to help Republicans.

Mehlman acknowledges that if he had publicly declared his sexuality sooner, he might have played a role in keeping the party from pushing an anti-gay agenda.
"It's a legitimate question and one I understand," Mehlman said. "I can't change the fact that I wasn't in this place personally when I was in politics, and I genuinely regret that. It was very hard, personally." He asks of those who doubt his sincerity: "If they can't offer support, at least offer understanding."

"What I do regret, and think a lot about, is that one of the things I talked a lot about in politics was how I tried to expand the party into neighborhoods where the message wasn't always heard. I didn't do this in the gay community at all."
He said that he "really wished" he had come to terms with his sexual orientation earlier, "so I could have worked against [the Federal Marriage Amendment]" and "reached out to the gay community in the way I reached out to African Americans."

Mehlman is aware that his attempts to justify his past silence will not be adequate for many people. He and his friends say that he is aware that he will no longer control the story about his identity -- which will simultaneously expose old wounds, invite Schadenfruede, and legitimize anger among gay rights activists in both parties who did not hide their sexual orientations.
Mehlman, who has never married, long found his sexuality subject to rumor and innuendo.


 He was the subject of an outing campaign by gay rights activist Mike Rogers, starting when Mehlman was Bush's campaign manager. Rogers's crusades against closeted gay Republicans split the organized gay lobby in Washington but were undoubtedly effective: he drove several elected officials, including Virginia Rep. Ed Shrock, from office, pushed out a would-be presidential campaign manager for George Allen well before Allen was set to run, slung rumors about Sen. Larry Craig's sexual orientation well before Craig's incident in a Minneapolis airport bathroom, and even managed to make homosexuality a wedge issue within the party's activist circles.

In 2006, Rogers caught up to Mehlman and asked him why he gave "so many confusing answers to social conservatives about your homosexuality," and followed up by asking whether Mehlman knew of a man who Rogers had claimed was Mehlman's secret partner. Mehlman denied to Rogers that he had given conflicting answers and said that the man in question was a law school classmate.

In several discussions I've had with Mehlman since he stepped down from the Republican National Committee in 2007, he never volunteered information about his sexual orientation, although charges that he presided over a resurgence in anti-gay sentiment were clearly an ongoing burden to him.

The disclosure at this stage of Mehlman's life strikes one close friend as being like a decision to jump off of a high diving board: Mehlman knows that there is plenty of water below, but it is still very scary to look down and make the leap. Mehlman likes order and certainty, and he knows that the reaction to his public confirmation cannot be predicted or contained.

Mehlman is the most powerful Republican in history to identify as gay.



http://www.theatlantic.com/pol...ehlman-im-gay/62065/



Reference by kresge:
As I went to a predominantly white seminary that had historical ties to the Presbyterian church, I had courses in clinical pastoral education where I was closely supervised. We were instructed in the same practices as licensed therapists and counselors. I was instructed never, ever be alone with just one congregant (male or female) in a private situation. None of this was required, however, for my ordination.

I would have thought that this was the "norm."  Or, more specifically, that this was just "requisite" ... the way it was done ... period ... regardless of race or religious affiliation or any other thing else.   Anyone who's going to be a 'spiritual leader' should be trained like that.  I have to say I am surprised that this is not the case.

And as for this ...

Reference by kresge:
Black churches in the main also tend to be charisma/ego driven institutions, with charisma being seen as synonymous with being "gifted by god" for the ministry.

... all I can say is .... .
Reference:
Again, most black clergy are not subject to such training, direction, or instruction. Thus, those with the best of intentions can walk into situations blind and naive. Others, will use the culture of the black church and the community to fulfill their base desires and aspirations.
I was reflecting on this the other day.  I figured out a long time ago that becoming ordained as a clergyman seemed to be no more different a process than becoming a lawyer.  You go to school, get a divinity (law) degree, then go through whatever steps from there to receive ones ordination (pass the bar exam & take the oath to become admitted to the bar).  While I'm sure I'm ignorant of some aspects of the process, the point is, there's nothing necessarily "special" or "divine" about the process.  Now, I'm sure some pastors entered the clergy because they felt a divine calling.  But what if someone who was interested in making money & building power and respect.  They want the bling-bling, the cars, the expensive clothes, wine and women.  They surveyed various careers and determined that they could get those things if they became a pastor. 

The question is, what's stopping them?  Maybe they'll decide they don't want to live a lie.  But there doesn't seem to be any real external barriers.  If my priority system had materialism and influence trumping the various reasons not to do something like that, I probably would have done that instead of the legal profession.  (I damn sure would be making more money, LOL!). 

That's what kills me about this story.  Supporters will blame the devil for trying to bring down the church.  But if there are no safeguards that would have kept him from reaching that point in the first place, then the supernatural seems unnecessary to cause this kind of incident.
@ Vox


Many Many Many churches don't even require the training before ordaining an individual as a minister/pastor, however I have noticed that the Megachurches are different in some aspects to the small baptist churches i have attended.


There is no deacon board and mother board to confront the pastor/bishop when he has the appearance of doing wrong.  In smaller baptist and "missionary baptist" churches the deacon board interviews, hires, fires, calls meetings with and sets the salary for the pastor.  The pastor provides spiritual leadership, but is not the ultimate authority in the church,  The deacons are the keepers and they call in the mother board depending on the issue.


In churches like those of Eddie Long, Creflo Dollar, T.D. Jakes, etc they "built" the church and thus they are the ultimate authority in the church.  There may be some associate pastors or a group of elders, but they do the bidding of the founding personality.  They are subordinate to the pastor and do not have the authority to pull the pastor aside and tell him to quit smiling at the girls in the youth choir and licking his lips during the sermon or pack his liturgy and go...
Reference:
In 2006, Rogers caught up to Mehlman and asked him why he gave "so many confusing answers to social conservatives about your homosexuality," and followed up by asking whether Mehlman knew of a man who Rogers had claimed was Mehlman's secret partner. Mehlman denied to Rogers that he had given conflicting answers and said that the man in question was a law school classmate.
  Yep, that's the ONE!  Good lookin out Brotha Cholly  I got him confused with the senator who left his wife for a MAN...and  came out and said he was gay[I think he has a daughter by her].  [Okay Okay I do admit...I am gettin up there and can't remember things like I used too....but!].  The point is....who do you TRUST?  In politics as in religion...the advice is to NOT be as trusting with ANYONE.  Unless of course, they walk on water and can bring back the dead....ALL on the same day!  Otherwise, folks are gonna always have their panties in a bunch when they find out that this "human being" they deem as PERFECT....has flaws just like anybody else.  As in this case with Brotha Long and other brothas like him on the down low....and let's not forget those lilly white folks in the catholic church who [since the catholic church was founded]  CAN'T keep their fifthy hands off of young boys....  The main point:  Don't GIVE your POWER[in whatever forum] to human beings...they will DISAPPOINT you every time...not one time...EVERY time!  But. 
Last edited by Kocolicious
Reference:
Again, whether the sexual accusations against Long are true or not, what disturbs me the most about this story are all of the things that are NOT in dispute.  Including the black diamonds.  WTF?
Nothing to dispute. Why would these young men lie? How many so-called pastors, preachers, congressmen, social and political activists rail and rant against gays yet they secretly indulge in the same behavior they condemn? How many others will be outed or caught? Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ghX644NIk&feature=feedu


Eddie Long did it. Period. End of story. Now the state really needs to prosecute his ass under the same premise as they did Marcus Dixon and Jenarlo Wilson. Its ashame too because too many black folks are blaming these young men who were children at the time these things happened! Damn sometimes religious black people can be so ignorant! Imagine if this had been YOUR child/children? And I think that should be the perspective here.

Reference:
Eddie Long did it. Period. End of story. Now the state really needs to prosecute his ass under the same premise as they did Marcus Dixon and Jenarlo Wilson. Its ashame too because too many black folks are blaming these young men who were children at the time these things happened! Damn sometimes religious black people can be so ignorant! Imagine if this had been YOUR child/children? And I think that should be the perspective here.
 That's the point!  And it's no laughing matter.  Those who DON'T have children, don't know or understand the horrific ramifications of sexual abuse and therefore can take the position of laughter and be insensitive to those innocence pulled in a situation that is troublin for an adult let alone a child. This is sad on ALL levels. 
Reference:
Those who DON'T have children, don't know or understand the horrific ramifications of sexual abuse and therefore can take the position of laughter and be insensitive to those innocence pulled in a situation that is troublin for an adult let alone a child.
I don't believe anyone is laughing at children being sexually abused (I've never seen nor heard of it). I think most people, regardless of whether they have children or not, understand how destructive and inexcusable child sexual abuse is......

WSBTV.com

Bishop Long Again Speaks To New Birth Members


For the third time this week, Bishop Eddie Long spoke to members of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church. And once again, he did not outright deny the sex allegations against him.

Long also spoke during both Sunday services at New Birth.

Long began his sermon on Tuesday by telling his congregation he had some cryptic messages for them.

“But I want you to pick up something that the older folks used to say, the more senior. And that is, I’m going to run on,” said Long.

VIDEO: Bishop Eddie Long Again Speaks To Congregation


He acknowledged the sexual abuse lawsuits four young men have filed against him, without talking directly about them.“

I’m not speaking about individuals and all of that. This is spiritual warfare,” said Long.He said that if he operated off of what he saw in the media, he wouldn’t have shown up Tuesday night.

"I’d be scared to show up. I’d be scared to look at you. But there’s something in me bigger than the situation,” he said.

Long also said the difficult time is not about him.“

You’re not touching me. You’re messing with a holy order that God is establishing, and God can handle Eddie Long,” he said.

He also reminded church members that God was in control.“And I’m here to tell you whatever God spoke about me, whatever God said about me, it shall come to pass,” said Long.

After the Tuesday service, Channel 2 Action News spoke to a church member who said he’s worried about the young men, but he supported his pastor.“

I love my bishop. I respect him as a man and, like I said, you know, he’s always giving,” said church member Rogerrick Thomas.

Four men have filed lawsuits alleging that the pastor used his influence to force them to engage in sex acts. The men said Long sent them pictures of himself posing and showing off his physique.

PHOTOS: Bishop Eddie Long Accused Of Sexual Abuse

Channel 2 Action News spoke with an attorney who said the men will need more than the pictures to win the case.

“From what’s come forward right now, there’s no physical evidence. And anytime a sex case (doesn’t) have physical evidence, it’s very, very difficult to prove,” said attorney Gerald Griggs.

On Sunday, Long said he felt like he was under attack. He indirectly refuted the allegations against him saying, "I have never in my life portrayed myself as a perfect man, but I am not the man that’s being portrayed on the television. That’s not me."

The attorney representing the four accusers had no comment Tuesday.

In an earlier written statement, Long denied the allegations.
Reference:
And once again, he did not outright deny the sex allegations against him.
And there ya have it. This Negro is guilty as Eric Massa, Larry Craig and George Rekers. Since when would someone "not vehemently deny" allegations of gross sexual misconduct if they were completely innocent? Case closed.....
Quote from:  Nspirit:
RE: D*cksucking Eddie Long video clip....

Did she cuss out the viewers and quote the Bible in the same video


Quote:  Ebonyrose


.... Now that's funny!! 


And yes, she sure did!! 





 Ah....hate to say this...but!  Aside from her ghetto fabulousness...that's my kind of girl.  Tell it like it....t. i.  "is"  And of course it's oxymoron...I think it's oxymoron when a person is an instrument of the church....a hero and turns out to be a villian.  Someone who is supposed to protect and guide children....is in fact preying on them and misguiding them into a world of deciet and SEX.  If that's not a kick in the head.  Oh and I hate it when he, preacher punk pimp, says the "devil", the spirit is against me.  Instead of explaining those pictures he took and sent to those young men.  If that's not a distraction.....  Hey Fool!  Young folks may fall for your glamorized bullshyte....cuz they don't know no better.....but!  Trust me.  You're not pullin' the wool over my eyes....I SEE whatcha been doin.  And you have children of your own?  Well the next question will soon be....."have you TOUCHED your own children azzwipe?"  [I dunno if he has boys...but]  The point is....it's NOT out of the ordinary for preachers/pastors/bishops to be sexual abusing their OWN children too or FIRST!  So...the barn door is now open.      
New Birth Members Stand By Their Bishop

Date: Tuesday, October 5, 2010
By: Errin Haines, Associated Press

 

ATLANTA (AP) — A billboard near an Atlanta highway reads, "Love Like Him, Live Like Him, Lead Like Him." The motto refers to Jesus Christ, but the smiling face next to it is that of Bishop Eddie Long.


Long built a humble suburban Atlanta congregation into a giant TV ministry on the strength of his charisma and his interpretation of the Gospels, including the magnetic idea that the faithful will be rewarded with wealth. It's a doctrine the architect and leader of New Birth Missionary Baptist Church embodies with his own luxury lifestyle, including a private jet, jewels, a luxury automobile and a mansion.


"It's like the 'in' church to be associated with," said Terry Belton of Charlotte, N.C., who has attended the New Birth church there with his wife. "You feel like you're going to prosper by being associated with that church. A lot of people go there because of him. We went ... because of him."


Now the shepherd needs his flock more than ever. Long, an outspoken opponent of gay marriage, has been sued by four young men who say he used his money and power to coerce them into sexual relationships. No criminal charges are likely because the men were beyond the age of consent, but the allegations and the hypocrisy they would expose if proven could threaten his leadership of New Birth, which boasts more than 25,000 members, a sprawling campus and a $50 million, 297,000-square-foot cathedral.


Less than two weeks after the allegations emerged, Long's congregation seems to be behind him; they gave him an enthusiastic welcome at services last weekend and have taken to social media to defend him. To his followers, Long and the church built with their money under his leadership are nearly inseparable.


"Eddie Long is the embodiment of their way of life, the pathway to their salvation," said branding expert Goldie Taylor, who lived for years in the neighborhood where New Birth is located and has watched the church's phenomenal growth.


"If something happens to negatively impact the power of the brand that is Bishop Eddie Long, you have to ask yourself, where will New Birth be?" Taylor said. "If they can't believe in him, what can they believe in?"


Long built a fiercely loyal and insular community inspired by his message of prosperity and his personal journey from a modest background as a preacher's son into an influential leader of a multimillion-dollar ministry.


"He's top of the line, one of the best at it," said Bishop Carlton Pearson, a friend of Long's for 20 years. "He's a tall, muscular, well-spoken, handsome black man with power and influence and authority. It's very intoxicating, both for him, and for those who drink from that same spiked fountain."


Eddie L. Long was born on May 12, 1953, in Charlotte, N.C., one of four sons of the Rev. Floyd Long, a Baptist preacher, and his wife, Hattie. He played football in high school and attended North Carolina Central University, where he was a radio personality, a promoter and president of his fraternity, Kappa Alpha Psi. He graduated in 1976 with a degree in business administration.


His first job was with Ford Motor Co. in Richmond, Va., where Long was a factory sales representative. He told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution years later that he was fired from that job for putting personal phone calls in an expense report. In 1979 he moved to Atlanta and worked for Honeywell for eight years before entering the ministry full-time.


He was a pastor for two years at Cedar Springs Baptist Church in Cedartown and earned a master's of divinity from Interdenominational Theological Center in Atlanta in 1986.


In 1987, he began working at the church that would become his legacy. New Birth Missionary Baptist was a modest church of about 300 members. The church's founder and former pastor, the Rev. Kenneth Samuel, had been ousted after clashing with the deacons who ran the church's affairs.


Long was much more adept at church politics, Samuel said.


"After some years of dealing with (the deacons), he dismissed the whole board," said Samuel, who now leads the 3,000-member Victory for the World Church in Stone Mountain, Ga. "He just took unilateral control over the church. He was more savvy at church politics than I was."


New Birth grew quickly under Long. According to a history on the church's website, by 1992, the church boasted more than 8,000 members and moved into a $2 million facility. Long opened the New Birth Academy.


In 1994, Long was consecrated as the third presiding bishop of the Full Gospel Baptist Church Fellowship under Bishop Paul S. Morton of New Orleans.


A decade after he arrived, Long's congregation swelled to 18,000. A lucrative land deal gave the church an $11 million profit that it used to pay off its debts and buy 240 acres in DeKalb County for its current site.


New Birth's rise paralleled Atlanta's growing reputation as a draw for upwardly mobile blacks. DeKalb County, where the church is located, is home to one of the country's most affluent black enclaves.


"The growth of New Birth ...had just as much to do Eddie Long as it had to do with how New Birth really became the epicenter of the emergence of the black middle class in South DeKalb County," branding expert Taylor said.


Long became a fixture in black Atlanta society, sitting on numerous boards of directors and being honored by organizations including Big Brothers Big Sisters, Omega Psi Phi fraternity and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. In 2005, he was given the Trumpet Award, one of the highest honors devoted to African-Americans.


The church's explosive growth is built largely on what is known as prosperity gospel, which has also attracted attention to Long and his ministry. In 2005, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reported that Long was the biggest beneficiary of the charity he established to help the needy, receiving more than $3 million in salary, benefits and property between 1997 and 2000 — including his $1.4 million six-bedroom, nine-bath home and $350,000 Bentley.


Long told the newspaper that New Birth was "not just a church, we're an international corporation."


"We're not just a bumbling bunch of preachers who can't talk and all we're doing is baptizing babies," he went on to say. "I deal with the White House ... I deal with presidents around this world ... You've got to put me on a different scale than the little black preacher sitting over there that's supposed to be just getting by because the people are suffering."


Long's lavish lifestyle was the subject of a Senate probe launched by Republican Chuck Grassley of Iowa, who inquired about the finances of half a dozen televangelist preachers with a prosperity message. Grassley's office has issued no final report on the inquiry.


Denise Blount, a church member who has known Long since he went to college with her brother, said the bishop's wealth doesn't bother her.


"The things I want, I work for them," Blount said. "I don't see him being any different. Whatever I could afford, that's what I would want to have. When you grow as Bishop has grown, you basically earn the right to have a nicer home or nicer car."


Such trappings also play well into his message of muscular Christianity, which has attracted many black men to his congregation. From the pulpit, Long projects an image of strength, fatherhood and leadership rooted in religion.


Anthony Cannon, who attended New Birth as a teenager and formed a father-son relationship with the pastor in college, said Long's presence in his life meant everything.


"He knew I didn't have my father in my life," said Cannon, now 25. "As a young man growing up, you gravitate to male figures in your life. With him being there for me, having someone to talk to ... that meant a lot to me."


One of Long's accusers, Jamal Parris, has said he also considered Long to be a father figure, but also a "predator" and a "monster." As a young man spending time with Long, "You can't believe the place you are at in your life and the things you are doing and the cars you are driving, and the people you are meeting," Parris told Fox TV affiliate WAGA. "So, it becomes, if I want to continue to feel this love and this power, I'll do whatever my dad wants me to."


Long's views on masculinity include his strong opposition to gay marriage. He made headlines in 2004 when he led a march protesting gay marriage with the Rev. Bernice King, daughter of civil rights icon the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and an elder at New Birth. King participated in the march over the protests of her mother Coretta Scott King, an advocate for gay rights. To begin the march, Long lit a torch using the eternal flame next to Martin Luther King's grave.


Two years later, Coretta Scott King's funeral was held at New Birth. Civil rights leader Julian Bond, a longtime friend of King's, did not attend because of his opposition to Long's views on gay rights. Bond has condemned Long in the wake of the allegations against him.


"I knew that Bishop Long was a raving homophobe," Bond told Atlanta's WXIA-TV. "And I knew she would be twisting in her grave if she were buried there. And I'd be twisting in my grave if I went to the funeral there."


Pearson, Long's longtime friend, said Long's views and outspokenness on the issue could be an effort to deflect. "Anybody who points at something like that is fearing that aspect of themselves," he said.


Whatever comes of the lawsuits, members of New Birth may be inclined to stand by their leader because of how he transformed their church, which Spelman College professor William Jelani Cobb called "the spiritual equivalent of Yankee Stadium."


"To say that you're a member of New Birth has a certain cachet," Cobb said. "When you see the plain size of the grounds and the campus, if you're one that believes in this idea of God's elect, that's the most compelling argument that they must be teaching a valid gospel."

You know .... I posted this story because it seems to give a pretty good background on the good Bishop.  But, I'm really kinda intrigued ... and baffled ... by this whole "prosperity preaching" thing!!  

I mean .. I understand the concept (I think) .... but .... what I don't get is how does it get reconciled by the members/congregation that while the preacher is saying that if you're just faithful enough, wealth (and whatever else) will come to you; but, as time goes by, you (the churchgoer) are NOT getting any richer, but the preacher is coming up with a private plane, trips to Africa and $350,000 Bentley??? 

I mean ... I understand hope and faith and prayer ... and even 'waiting' for your day to come.  But, after like two years ... or three or four .... and you're still sitting there hoping and praying and having faith ..... and the PREACHER gets a new Bentley ....


I mean ... I guess my real question is .... how can you turn that off??  How do you convince people that "This isn't working.  Time to try something new."?? 

I can kinda understand the "sheep" mentality when it comes to religion .... following someone (a preacher) in search of a soul-nourishment, believing (even wrongly) that this guy has some deeper connection to God than you do.  But ... how can you infuse some simple common sense into the equation to get people to realized that if you're following someone ... but not going anywhere ... maybe you should find another route - or someone else to follow - so that you're actually achieving something? 

I really hate seeing so many of our people willingly letting themselves be lead to the slaughter like this.    I believe there are some real people of faith out there (preachers/ministers/clergy) - few and far between, probably - but they exist nonetheless!!  But people get stuck behind these mega-church, mega-money-making shysters ... and refuse, or simply just can't find the way, to save themselves from disaster.
I don't understand it either and I have quit trying to have conversations with those good God fearing christians about the issue. Whenever someone doesn't get what the preacher is talking about its always "their fault". From my limited knowledge, charity is supposed to be one of the tenents, but it seems more like I got mine you get yours should be the motto of some churches.
Reference:
I mean .. I understand the concept (I think) .... but .... what I don't get is how does it get reconciled by the members/congregation that while the preacher is saying that if you're just faithful enough, wealth (and whatever else) will come to you; but, as time goes by, you (the churchgoer) are NOT getting any richer, but the preacher is coming up with a private plane, trips to Africa and $350,000 Bentley???
It is not simply the prosperity gospel at work here, but I would argue that there is a cultural component of this for African Americans. Du Bois was not the first, but was probably the most eloquent to articulate the role of the minister/preacher in the African American community. The most closely resemble tribal leaders in Africa. Their wealth is associated with the power of the office and their people. So, while I might not have a Bentley, I can see that my chief, king, or preacher has one. He is the embodiment of the community. Thus, if he prospers, I am seen as prospering.
Reference:
You know .... I posted this story because it seems to give a pretty good background on the good Bishop. But, I'm really kinda intrigued ... and baffled ... by this whole "prosperity preaching" thing!!
  Just me talkin' as an observer with family members who are pastors, bishops, deacons...and last but not least preachers,  that almighty word "prosperity" has meant PIMPING in front of the pulpit....promoting...for that "almighty" DOLLAR.  I've seen it too many times to  mention my family members passing the plate around the congregation five or six times to get that quota for the week....and  if they didn't get it, would keep the congegration from leaving by creating another sermon to prolong the visit.  I have witnessed too many times to mention, how propersity for the church bought that caddy or that house on the hill, where the patrishers[s] barely had enough to pay rent....let alone a mortgage.  And it was this very thing[among many] i.e.....using the churchgoers for PERSONAL benefit that ultimately TURNED my stomach and as a young girl I REFUSED to continue going to church[which made my daddy happy(he was muslim and my mom a christian)...as a child I wanted to please my mommy too...so I would be grudgely go with her sometimes] .  The stories I can tell. And I've seen some bad stuff....not just from my family members but from neighboring churches as well.  Then at large there was Rev. Ike preaching about prosperity  I always felt he was gay....and let's not forget the preacher who got caught with prostitutes and then went on television and cried like a baby.  He wasn't crying cuz he did wrong, he was crying cuz he was losing a whole lotta MONEY i.e. prosperity for HIS church.  This is only a sample from the population....but!  When couple that with priests sexually molesting children around the world and misconduct from other so-called God-fearing individuals....you begin to realize that the word "properity" has absolutely NOTHING to do with God and everything to do with those talkin about God for a PRICE!  As I always say:  there's not too much difference between a preacher and a pimp.....except for...LOCATION!  But I'm just sayin
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It is not simply the prosperity gospel at work here, but I would argue that there is a cultural component of this for African Americans. Du Bois was not the first, but was probably the most eloquent to articulate the role of the minister/preacher in the African American community. The most closely resemble tribal leaders in Africa. Their wealth is associated with the power of the office and their people. So, while I might not have a Bentley, I can see that my chief, king, or preacher has one. He is the embodiment of the community. Thus, if he prospers, I am seen as prospering.

You know ... this is interesting.  And although I'm not doubting the truthfulness of at last part in any way ... I, personally, do not agree with it one bit!!    If my tribal leader/preacher/king is sitting back fat and full ... and I'm at home starving and emaciated I'm gonna see something very, very, very wrong with that!! 

And I think the biggest bottom line about that with me is the fact that ... I see a GREAT separation between that which is spiritual and what is 'material' in nature!!!  And I simply do not believe that God has any use for money or material things!!  Or that either of those things are needed for spiritual nurturing!!  The soul does not need to submit "payment" in order to connect with it's Creator.  It's pretty much already a done-deal ... and any "middle man" who gets in between that - and charges for it - should be guilty of extortion at the very least!! 

However, let me just say that ... I have a BFF who has been practicing the traditional African religion of Santeria for probably close to a decade now!!  She has been through ceremonies and is considered a "priestess" in the Religion.  She's even traveled to Cuba to have ceremonies done.  Even though I'm most interested in learning more about it, I've never taken the time to more thoroughly investigate it as a means of "religion" for myself.

But ... and I think one of the main reasons why is because (as an 'outsider' looking 'in') one thing I've noticed is that like so many other religions, the cost of being a "follower" is STEEP!!    She has paid hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars to "higher-ups" (for lack of a better term!) in the Religion to have those ceremonies performed!!  And at those gatherings she attends (the equivalent of "church" I suppose it could be called) there is always a call for an "offering" of some (material) sort.

And although I don't think any of those high priests/chiefs (or whatever they are called) are sitting on any kind of financial level that rivals the mega-preacher-type of the Christian faith ... still ... they are paid handsomely for elevating ones spiritual position within the Religion itself.

Now ... I'm not saying that I think a "man of God" shouldn't make any money or be able to live as well and happy as the next guy ... but, I do believe there is a difference between what God needs ...and what the soul (of an individual) needs and what a spiritual leader should get for his "guidance" as a connector of the two.



Bishop Steven Arnold Resigns After Affair With Parishioner.


Bishop Steven Arnold (pictured), a prominent pastor in Little Rock, Ark., resigned this week, after admitting to an affair with a female in his congregation. He was the pastor at First Baptist Church, where he's had the post for 21 years.


Arnold's revelation to his congregation led to the church's board of elders accepting his letter of resignation swiftly and issuing a statement:


"It is with a heavy heard that we accept the resignation of our pastor. Under his leadership, we have experienced tremendous growth, both spiritually and numerically. We love and deeply appreciate all that he has done for us through God's enablement these past 21 years. In our efforts to curtail speculation and gossip, the Board of Elders made the decision to be more specific about what led to Bishop Arnold's resignation. But out of respect and sensitivity to the families and all that are involved, we will not release any more information other than this. We prayerfully hope that the public will show the same respect and be considerate of the feelings of family members and our church during this difficult time."


Arnold's resignation obviously calls to mind the sex scandal of another prominent bishop down in Atlanta by the name of Eddie Long. There's one obvious difference in the two scandals: One pastor was accused of sleeping with a woman and the other with men.


I can't help but wonder if there's a difference in how the scandals are perceived by members of the church. I've seen quite a few cases in which pastoral promiscuity is the hidden secret in the church, but being a gay pastor would be simply unacceptable. Also, Long is known throughout the world. Stevens isn't quite as popular. Neither of these men are small fries, however, as Bishop Stevens had his sermons broadcast on television.


One must give Stevens respect for admitting to his congregation that he's done something wrong and gracefully stepping away from the pulpit. Now, one can't say what pressures might have led him to do this, but I can't imagine that pressure being much greater than that being laid upon Long.


Long's insistence o fighting the allegations and using the support of his followers to challenge his sex scandal either says that he is an innocent man being framed or that he is far more devious, manipulative and sinister than anyone could have ever imagined. A true man of God would not lie to millions of people in order to save face. I hope this is not the real Eddie Long.



Open link for news video:


http://www.bvblackspin.com/201...-with-a-parishioner/
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Now ... I'm not saying that I think a "man of God" shouldn't make any money or be able to live as well and happy as the next guy ... but
  To me...he SHOULDN'T make MORE money than his patishioners[sp].  He shouldn't be flying around in JETS, driving in LIMOS and eating at EXPENSIVE restaurants...living in mutiple homes at the same time....when MOST of his congregation barely have JOBS!!!  Sumthing is DEFINITELY wrong with that.  And I'm not saying "he" shouldn't make a living....I'm just saying he shouldn't make a HIGH living on those who believe in what he' preaching.  I'm saying "he" shouldn't take advantage of the poor AND those unsuspecting souls who believe every word he says as he lines his POCKETS with THEIR money and as he fulfills his personal admirations.  If he has his OWN profession or job and is preaching the word of GOD as his personal obligation to the "word" and used the money raised to help the church and its people...well that's a different story....but! Traditionally, what we have seen over the years[from many black churches] is GREED, SELFISHNESS from folks who dare call themselves a leader of God....and the only evidence witnessed thus far is their ability to slime their way out of it and worry less about the people who have suffered because of their actions.  Now I'm not talking about those REAL clergy folks [that we don't hear about] who are doing the RIGHT thing....I am specifically talking about those DEVILS in God's cloth...who are lying straight face, having immoral sex and stealing MONEY from those who trust them.  It's a damn shame...cuz for the most part...this is what has been going on with some churches for a long time and the thing that pisses me off is these preachers/pimps don't think they did ANYTHING wrong[when caught with their hands in the cookie jar]...AND literally refuse to acknowledge any wrongdoing...how focking arrogant is that?  But!  I'm just sayin...
And that's what I'm talkin' about, Ms. Koco!! 

If I have to borrow the money to put enough gas in my (old, unreliable) car to get to Sunday service ... and the "preacher" I'm going to there to receive 'the word' from is arriving at that same church in his own personal helicopter in order to "deliver" that word ..... and is then going to ask me for a "donation" to help him be able to fill that helicopter up with gas ....

There IS DEFINITELY something wrong ... wrong ... VERY WRONG with that!! 
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Bishop Steven Arnold Resigns After Affair With Parishioner.
FYI -
There is really no such thing as a Baptist Bishop. The office of bishop is antithetical to what it means to be Baptist, which have historically had congregational polity and emphasizes the priesthood of all believers.

Might I suggest that a warning sign about any church that claims to be Baptist is that if you have someone calling themselves bishop that you run as fast as you can in the other direction.
Thanks Kresge!!!!
I tried to explain to some people that some of these titles are all smoke. I remember going to a church, with about 20-25 members where they held service in their house. I asked the "Bishop" how long he had been preaching and he stated less than a year! So being the skeptic I am I asked how the title was bestowed upon him and he stated it came from God.


I would also like to add, that churches where the wife is the co-pastor, soley because she is married to the pastor is also a sign for me to stay on the back row incase of the need for a hasty exit.
Catch Reference:
I would also like to add, that churches where the wife is the co-pastor, soley because she is married to the pastor is also a sign for me to stay on the back row incase of the need for a hasty exit.
Amen!    This made me think of a mail order catalog called Especially Yours which used to be associated with Essence.  The catalog has wigs, weave, etc, but in the back are things like matching purple suits, red suits with rhinestone studs, and skirtsuits with satin stripes plus hats and matching purses.  I refer to this as Co-Pastor Couture


http://www.especiallyyours.com/APPAREL 

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Amen! This made me think of a mail order catalog called Especially Yours which used to be associated with Essence. The catalog has wigs, weave, etc, but in the back are things like matching purple suits, red suits with rhinestone studs, and skirtsuits with satin stripes plus hats and matching purses. I refer to this as Co-Pastor Couture http://www.especiallyyours.com/APPAREL
OMG, I am forwarding this to my wife this minute. When she married me, her mother told her that she needed to get a "first-lady" wardrobe. Her mother was convinced that the professor gig was a phase and that I would eventually have a congregation. Well, it has not happened, but my wife in one of these outfits would bring a smile to my mother-in-law.
@ Kresge


I hope Mrs. Kresge has as much fun visiting the Co-Pastor Couture link as I did  They used to have matching Mens suits for some of the skirt suits, but I didn't see any this time around. 


To be honest, I rather enjoy elaborate church hats and have been known to sport one or two myself.  It reminds me of my mom...oh and that scene from Waiting to Exhale where they each wear a different shade of jewel toned sheath dresses with matching hats....oh and that scene in Beloved where the womenfolk are praying and moaning the ghost away...well u get the point.


I don't know about the fancy suits, but there's definitely something about a hat.
  Okay Okay...let's say for a quick minute...he didn't do what these young men are sayin.  What was the PURPOSE of Bishop sending photos in tight spanks? He's a  man of God for chrissakes  He claim they are after him. Who?  The devil?    Okay.  then.  What was the PURPOSE of posing in a bathroom smikin'?  He's a grown man....right?  Married....right?  With FOUR kids....right?  So as he stuff his face with cookies and the crumbs are SEEN all over his face....why is he mumbling with a mouth full "ah didn't du nuthing 'rong?"  He might as well fess on up.  Be a man for once.  Stop thinking about your penis.  Be a man!  Cuz you are BUSTED!!!And that God you're ALWAYS referring to AINT got a DAMN thang to do with it.  Cuz it is YOUR behavior in question....YOURS alone.  And that manipulating Devil you're blaming....that's just YOU not being accountable for the LIES you've been hiding behind.  You're GAY!! GAY!!! Accept it and move on with your life.... cuz NO ONE CARES what you are.  Just be a MAN..why dontcha? And face what you've done like a MAN!   But! 
Kocolicious, sis, I think that Eddie Long did whatever those boys said he did. Plain and simple. There is really no need for further debate, discussion, crying, denials, etc. The boys should continue to get their stories out in the media and community, Eddie Long will continue to pussy foot around th subject never admitting or denying anything. New Birth, minus the deacon board & mother's board (as NSpirit pointed out), will continue to live with this mess, Eddie Long's wife will still stay with him as long as the money keeps rolling in and the church will probably grow more and more. I think its a sin and shame that people would seek spiritual guidance from a person who lives like this behind closed doors. I hope he continues to get all those dingbats money and makes it rain.
Yemaya Reference:
I hope he continues to get all those dingbats money and makes it rain.
  ROFTLMBAO  


LOL @ Kresge's video clip - Did J Anthony Brown say he was gonna wear that outfit and have 2 teenagers with him?


I think that's the part that's overlooked when peeps talk about this situation.  These were somebody's children.  A teenager is still a child.  Even if "Bishop" didn't have sex with them (i believe he did), he abused his relationship with them and abused his authority over them.  He should do the right thing and step aside like the other Bishop in this thread did.

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