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Well... apparently there is a long-standing and perhaps on-going debate on the effects of racism - the contemporary impact and the historical on-slaught from slavery, Jim Crow, etc.

Below are two perspectives that explore the topic metaphor:
    The VOX School:
  • I do NOT believe that there are significant "aftershocks" that keep us from building. Here, we can agree to disagree. I would compare what we deal with less to aftershocks and more to the hazards left in the earthquake's wake. The black codes and Jim Crow were aftershocks. The current issues we're faced with are, to me, more like a building collapse resulting from the earthquake damaging the foundation, or the spread of disease from the dead bodies that haven't been dug out yet, or the eventual collapse of a bridge that had been weakened by the earthquake and the aftershocks. Those who fail to try doom themselves. Yes, many may be conditioned by the earthquake and the aftershocks to believe that trying is pointless, but it is that conditioning that is the problem at this point. Fix that, and we move forward.

    The FAHEEM School:
  • I remember your earthquake analogy and I remember my response to it. What I said to you is that yes we can now focus on rebuilding after the big earthquake but we are being bombarded with after shocks which must stop before we can truly rebuild. Some of us can build in the mist of the bombardment of aftershocks but this do not mean we should ignore them, Our earthquake and the aftershocks are man made and have a perpetrator it is not a natural phenomena and this why your analogy don't work.
Which one do you agree with?
Are they both right in some respects? How are they off-base?
Is there another way of seeing this?
Original Post

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I will cast my vote or rather share my opinion...

I think they are both right in some respects though I tend to lean towards the FAHEEM school of Thought on this. Let me explain...
  • The VOX opinion seems to suggest that Racism via seminal events/incidents stopped at some point with presumably Slavery being the earthquake itself and all aftershocks ending with the fall of segregation.
  • I don't agree. While there may very well be certain outgrowths particularly in attitudes/mentality that have their genesis in a foregone era I do believe there are current actions, and current occurrences that are 'new' "aftershocks" or mini-earthquakes that are 'unique' or separate in their origin.
  • For example, the Drug War and criminalization of Black drug users/dealers - a virtual assault on the rise of the Militant Black Male/Hero (recall Malcolm X's youth and transformation into adulthood). IMO, this is the equivalent of the Biblical empires edicts to kill all the male children to prevent the rise of the messiah.
    *******************************************
  • Affirmative Action and perhaps all issues of concern with education on all levels may be accurately interpreted as outgrowths of school desegregation and the unfortunate side-effects of perhaps a narrow policy.
    *******************************************
  • Along the line of aspects and problematic issues in schooling, the violence and poor learning enviroments in inner-city schools may be interpreted as a post-quake yet aftershocking event. I don't know if there is any evidence to suggest that discipline, interest, and motivation were significant issues prior to the CR-Act.
I think the perspectives may very well depend on what exactly we are talking about. Yet, I feel obliged to say that, while their may not be an open conspiracy connecting every White citizen to "Hold The BLACK MAN Down", the order of this society has still set things up where the "lingering disease" of negative racial stigma towards Blacks causes most White Americans to see their interest threaten with every Black advance. Hence, many Whites are active, whether subconsciously or not, participants in a war against Black interest that aren't mutually exclusive to theirs.

Therein, the attitudes are the same - inherited - yet the acts in given arenas may be entirely new and with debilitating effects.
One of the many reasons I reject analogies used by anyone to describe the condition of the Black man and woman in America is because no analogy can fully encompass all that has happen to the Black man and woman in America. This is why I rejected Ebony's analogy of the prisoner and it is also why I reject the analogy offered by Vox. Many have tried and no one has been successful as I see it in making an analogy that works and fully explain the condition of the Black man and woman. Many analogies have been given to explain certain aspects of our struggle here in America and analogies have been given to describe certain things that happen in our struggle. The all encompassing analogies will never work because they do not encompass all the factors that have lead to our current day condition. Analogies that use an individual and equate the individual experience to all Black men and women do not work and should be rejected. We reject this exact same analogy when used by white folk but somehow believe it to be true when used by Black folk. Most analogies that try to describe our condition are a form of simplism meaning they only serve to reduce our condition to a simple analogy by ignoring important complexities and factors that can not be left out when talking about the Black man and woman in America.

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
Most analogies that try to describe our condition are a form of simplism meaning they only serve to reduce our condition to a simple analogy by ignoring important complexities and factors that can not be left out...
I agree FAHEEM. The most frequent error and sure evidence of this simplism is the lack of or the unaccounted for dynamics - the dynamics of both Black people and the still White controlled society in which they [we] live.

I think you bring up and interesting point when talking about the individual experience of one as if it can always be indicative of others let alone all those discussed. The irony is that individual focus is what we all (or perhaps just most of us) seem to abhor when it is promoted or was promoted by Whites when strict tokenism was the order of the day.

(It's funny how Republicans try to boost Bush's Black Points by saying he has more Black appointees than Clinton or whatever they claim... I guess we're in a period of Advanced Tokenism... However that's not to take away from the abilities of those African-Americans filling the slots. It never should...)
Faheem ....

Please try to understand this ... and I'll be honest, I don't really expect you to, because you seem to be so deep-rooted in your own train of thought that words of others only mean what you want them to mean, but I will say this as precisely and straightforwardly as I can. There is no need for speculation or reading between the lines, or summations or deductions or interpretations. What I am about to say is exactly what I mean!

I was not making an analogy with the prisoner question. I was not comparing the two in any way. It was a question. An example of a situation in which one could possibly be one's own enemy. All that speculation on 'the bread and water meant this' and 'the key meant that' and 'freedom meant something else' was all something made up in your mind ... and not reflective of my question. I compare the plight of Black people with no one and nothing else. There is no equal. No situation that can stand side by side with us and what we've been through. Because our situation is distinctly unique.

Now, you wouldn't know that, because you don't know me. I don't expect you to know that about me. But, I can't really appreciate you sitting there and saying that my prisoner question is an analogy to a very thing that I would never make an analogy about, either!!

You (or at least one (or both) of your amigos!) chose to go into the whole mental thing about the ramifications of what precipitated the bondage and the circumstances of after taking the key and a whole lot of other stuff that had nothing to do with what I was asking, yet you attributed it to me and then talked about how shallow I was in my consideration of all that!! Eek Please!! If you had just taken the senario I described and then the question that followed and related the two and then gave an answer ... then you would have had a clear understanding of what I meant. Period, plain and simple.

I would ask that you never try to discern what it is I'm thinking or trying to say about any given subject. 'Cause I can assure you you have no idea what goes on in my head!! If you take what I say, and then try to project what you think I mean, you will be mistaken 99.9% of those times! Because I say what I mean and mean what I say. If I don't say it, I don't mean it. And if I do say it, I usually mean nothing more and nothing less.

And if there are any further questions about anything that I say, I'm more than happy to answer them ... because I prefer it much more than having someone else put their words into my mouth. And I'm more than capable of adequately expressing myself!

[This message was edited by EbonyRose on June 21, 2003 at 08:36 PM.]
EbonyRose...

Sister... you are entitled to your view. I respect you for that. I, like Faheem apparently, just don't agree with you. So what? You don't agree with us either.

It's nothing to lose sleep over or to perpetually look at each other as enemies or whatever.

We all simply just think differently. and we need to learn how to deal with it.

BTW...
Everything you said we - since we are Los Tres Amigos - could say also... "99.9% of the time"

PEACE!
I'll toss in my two cents worth. I tend to follow Faheem in that there is really no analogy to fully describe the african experience here in America. Jews point to the holoclaust as an example of modern butchery of people but it pales to the point of not being even worthly of discussion when compared to our experience in being brought to this country. I agreed that an analogy is just a simple way of comparing say fruit to fruit, but in this case a simple analogy cannot even began to cover all the complexities that slavery was because there were just to many levels to the evil that was slavery.

Any problems that we encounter today in our communities are not the result of slavery but the result of current and on-going mental and physical assualts upon the black community IMHO. And while it is easy to see what it is happening in the manner of continued oppression especially on our mentality, there is a spark of truth in what Vox says in that there are simply too many people not even trying to raise themselves up. At some point I think we need to identify what characteristics those individuals that struggle and succeed have vs those that don't even try.
quote:
I can't really appreciate you sitting there and saying that my prisoner question is an analogy to a very thing that I would never make an analogy about.
Well... I've tried to play the peacemaker role but there are somethings I can't make peace with here, Ebony...

Whether you want to call you "question" an analogy or not, I would be surprised if anybody else would look at what you said and classify it as a simple "question". Why would you present all those 'troubling' elements that you feel no one has the right to interpret or challenge their relevance if all you wanted to ask was a simple question with no need to illustrate by comparison - aka analogous example - what the "question" or principle at hand is.

You see... This is the type of Insult To My (Our) Intelligence that I see as far more offensive than any name-calling, IMO.

If you would never draw a comparison to our struggle Ebby... Why didn't you make the argument you are making NOW... THEN??
quote:
To say that we are our own worst enemy does not have to imply that one created their own mess, but that they don't do enough to get out of it. Your enemy may well have created the mess for you. But if you don't take the opportunities when they come to you to clean that mess up, then you can not only blame that enemy for current state. Bound or free, you always have the responsibility of yourself to make the best of your situation that you possibly can. If you don't, you are indeed working against yourself... and isn't the definition of an enemy one who works against you?
That was your closing commentary after your question. A three [3] sentence "question that started with the phrase: "FOR EXAMPLE" which is usually used to compare or describe the likeness of things... whatever...

Regardless as to the intended point and/or scope of your question (as you hope it to now or hoped it to be then), the CONTEXT from which that question arised needs to brought into view to see whether it was honestly a simple question or, indeed, an analogous comparison of some aspect of our struggle.

Ebony, it was your post/topic, "The Number One Hinderance To Black Achievement" that should have made everything said revolve around, speak to or speak about "our struggle". What else was the topic created for?

IN TERMS OF CONTEXT...
Both NOAH and I (and to a lesser extent KEVIN) all took exception to WHIPWREX's diecast of "We[Black People] are own worst enemy". Nobody tripped on the fact that he, Whipwrex was *adding to* or *overanalyzing* the intent of the *Poll*.

An honest consideration of what he had to say actually gets us to the point that preciptated this whole thing in the first place:
  • [1] It was NOT one of the Poll Options;

  • [2] It was completely cited in the larger context of our struggle (in line with the topic itself...but, again, NOT a listed option).

  • [3] NOAH's response to WhipWrex was perhaps one that cemented his position in the dubious Tres Amigos honor. There he employed the use of the alleged "overstated" Cause & Effect model some deemed as inappropriate because it *added to*, *overanalyzed*, and was NOT a specific vote for one of the *Poll options*.

  • [4] NOAH's subsequent post in response to WhipWrex clarification/defense noted what he interpreted as the IMPLICATION, intended or unconsciously implicit...

  • [5] That IMPLICATION and the interpretation of it was what began this whole ordeal... because... EBONYROSE decided that she would give her *interpretation* or rather just offer one different/in opposition/adverse to NOAH's.
Now... considering point [5] EBONY...
since you have such a big problem with people trying to determine what you mean and not taking them at face-value, I think you too should be on Interpretative Arrest along with any and everybody you "don't appreciate" taking you words and running with them.

All I ask is for people to be honest!

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on June 21, 2003 at 10:32 PM.]
So... IN REVIEW Ebony...

I have a problem with the what you seem to be saying now because We Are NOW Suppose To Believe:
  • You were asking a simple question and NOT making an analogy;

  • You took exception to your question being called an analogy (THEN) because it was not intended to compare anything but what you said [??] much less our struggle, (though you used a scenario speaking about an ENEMY, which may infer a war, fight, or *struggle*), when you never articulated that THEN - your semantical choice of terms;

  • That the topic - YOUR TOPIC - "The Number One Hinderance..." was NOT the ultimate context or backdrop wherein you asked your question; (A topic that can be re-worded to ask 'The Number One Hinderance To The Black Struggle' since it can be understood that we are 'struggling' to achieve.

  • That WhipWrex's post had NOTHING to do with or did NOT allude to 'our struggle' or some aspect of it - i.e. the specific context wherein your question arose.

  • That an EXAMPLE used in a thread does NOT imply the comparison or the equation of likeness to some concept relative to the overall subject matter or focus of the topic/post - our struggle or our struggle to achieve.

  • That the illustration of how "Black people are their own worst enemy" has no bearing or implication on how we view 'our struggle' and is just an abstraction used to make a point, just for the sake of making a point.
Now... I'm not sure I understand all that now... Whew!!

EBONY... I can see how you hold the view you do and, though I don't agree entirely on how you apply it, I understand why you feel the way you do and why believe it to be valid. Matter of fact, I would be foolish to say that it doesn't have merit.

BUT... your explanation here... is a rationale that is hard to uphold cause you are really asking us to do too much to accomodate your portrail of events and asking us to forget all our common sense about how discussions develop and the points that people try to make.

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on June 22, 2003 at 09:11 AM.]
Nmaginate ...

I'm gonna try to make this quick ... for several reasons, but primarily because I really don't think this whole thing deserves all this attention!! Eek

But, taking the simple prisoner question ... in fact, let me post it again here ...

quote:
For example, let's say your enemy imprisons you for 3 years, gives you nothing but bread and water. At the end of this term, the key to the cell is placed in arms reach just outside the door next to your meal, but every time you reach through, you take the bread and water and leave the key where it is. Are you not your own enemy for not giving yourself freedom?


Now ... had you asked before, my initial thinking on this never was "Black" thing!! When I thought about it, my thinking went more along the lines of something like this ....

You went to Turkey on a vacation. Someone sneaks hash in your bag. You get caught at the airport, and are thrown in a Turkish jail. Held there for 3 years. You don't speak the language and have no idea what the hell is going on outside of your bars. You are given bread and water to eat every day. You learn to love it, because it keeps you alive. One day the key is put next to your meal. Not knowing the language, you don't know what to think about that!! You sit there and consider .. 'if I take the key, I might get my head chopped off.' Or 'maybe somebody's trying to help me.' You don't know. For all you know, they're just trying to see how stupid or smart you Americans (or Black people) are and if you will take your own chance at freedom.' It could be a test, it could be a trick. But the crux of the question of whether or not you take the key or leave yourself imprisoned being an enemy to yourself was not an analogy of Black people's struggle. It was question of the mindset of someone who will work against themselves. Simple as that.

Now, I didn't go into all this detailed thought when I asked the simple question that I asked, because the question was indeed intended to be just a simple question!!! Any analogies, fantacies, comparisons, deductions, or whatever else you made up in your mind is something I refuse to take any responsibility for. Eek

As well is the (again) simple question of the #1 Hindrance .... thread you keep bringing up!! It was a poll I posted off of another website. I believe I even stated that preceding the actual question!! All other discussion, debate, dialogue was nothing that I requested or probed for. It took on a life of its own. And I have no problem with that! But please don't infer what I meant by it, because there's nothing there to work with! I posted the question. Period. Not my opinion, there were no comments by me at the time, I didn't ask for anybody to say anything, nor did I say anything myself. Therefore, any inferences attributed to me is stuff you're making up in your own mind! And I just ask that you don't make stuff up where it concerns me!! It will alleviate any misunderstandings ... because I'm pretty consistent at saying exactly what I mean. Therefore, anything else that you think cannot properly be attributed to me. At that point, you are dealing with your brain, and not mine!

You can comment and discuss and make points and develop whatever you want here, however you want to. You know, whatever floats your boat. And whatever your understandings (or lack of in some cases) are it's totally up to you to deal with them. But your train of thought is not the one everybody on this board rides. You and I certainly don't "think" alike!! So what you may think I think, is probably incorrect, at best. I'm sorry if you don't understand the things I say. But there's little I can do about it, unless you care to take the time to ask me what I mean, so that I can more fully try to explain it to you. Aside from that, if you're going to make up my meaning for you, I'm going to let you, and dismiss your mistaken conclusion as just that ... some kind of fantasy that has nothing to do with me.
My sentiments exactly Nmaginate, Sister Ebony is now trying to change the rules in the middle of the game by saying her analogy was a stand alone analogy not stemming from the context of that thread and from the words written by other board members. If her analogy was not presented to analogize the statements being made by her and other board members about Black people being our own worst enemy, then her analogy was irrelevant to the discussion. No one stated there is no such phenomenon as someone or some group of people being there own worst enemy. The discussion was about Black folk, was it not? So any analogies made in a discussion about Black folk being there own worst enemies showing how someone can be there own worst enemy can only be ascertained to mean the person making the analogy is trying to prove the for mention statement of Black folk being there own worst enemy true or false.. When she made the prisoner analogy that was her attempt to equate the prisoner with black folk and those who imprisoned him with white folk. So I still say her prisoner analogy does not encompass all the dynamics facing the Black man and woman in America. If her analogy was not to prove or present to us how Black folk can be our own biggest enemy then her analogy was irrelevant to the discussion because the discussion was not about some arbitrary person or group being their own worst enemy it was about Black folk being our own worst enemy.

One more thing Ebony, any thing I think I know about you are based on the words you write on this message board and are limited to the words you write on this message board. There is no need for you or anyone on this board to continue to say to other men and women on this board they do not know you. We all are aware we do not know the totality of what you are about, we can only use your words to have an opinion concerning you. It is ironic that the only time men and women on the internet claim you do not know them is when they believe something negative is being attributed to them, however if someone is saying they are a well rounded free thinking stand up person no statements of "you do not know me will be made". Mention one thing about them they do not like and Booya... they instantly respond with "You don't know me".

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
Faheem ...

As far as I'm concerned, from this point on you no longer exist.

And you may analyze, dissect, re-word, speculate, innuendo, theorize, psychobabble, study, interrogate, and otherwise mentally concept that in any way you like. Smile

But it will still mean exactly what it means.

I don't want you to be my brother. I don't want you to protect me. I don't want you to defend me. I don't want you to talk to me. I don't want you to talk about me. I don't want to have any interaction with you whatsoever. I don't want to acknowledge you. I don't want to read your words. I don't want the fact that we ever, at any time, have ever come into contact with each other in any way to ever be known by anyone.

For me, speaking to you equates to me being my own worst enemy. So, I'm gonna choose to save myself!!

Live long and prosper.

[This message was edited by EbonyRose on June 22, 2003 at 01:32 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Faheem ...

As far as I'm concerned, from this point on you no longer exist.




!! I haven't read the bulk of this thread yet, so I guess I have to defer on whether this was called for.

I once got into a discussion on interracial dating, which led Faheem to take me on a horridly minute and totally pointless tangent about the meaning of the word "natural." I was pretty annoyed by it, but I never got to this level. You two should try and make amends, for real.

Anyway...

quote:
From Faheem

One of the many reasons I reject analogies used by anyone to describe the condition of the Black man and woman in America is because no analogy can fully encompass all that has happen to the Black man and woman in America... Many have tried and no one has been successful as I see it in making an analogy that works and fully explain the condition of the Black man and woman.


Faheem, it's really not useful to even try to. When I put forth analogies, they're usually for the purpose of clarifying a specific point in a specific discussion. They are helpful in clarifying a point, especially a missed point. But to fully explain the condition of the black American, there is no analogy; but you don't really need one. But I find that they're extremely helpful in helping someone understand your point in a discussion.

For example, in this thread, it doesn't matter whether you call the Rockefeller drug laws an aftershock or later damage resulting from an aftershock, in terms of what they have done to our communities (in and out of NY). The fact that they can be repealed shows that the comparison is not exact with respect to their meaning overall. The purpose of the analogy was to show the effect of collective personal action on circumstance and on average levels of success. Taken action vs. sitting and letting damage fester.

Nmaginate, you seem (and again, I've only read the first 2 posts and the one just above me, by Ebony Rose) to be using the analogy as a way to create a discussion about whether today's racism is something we can succeed in the face of if we work on self, or whether working on self will do no good because of today's racism. Of course, I believe 100% that working on our own personal choices makes a world of difference, and that (MOST importantly) FAILURE or REFUSAL to work on our own personal choices completely damns you. The latter (the failure/refusal part) is common sense and doesn't require discussion. The former is not "common" sense, because intelligent people seem to disagree, but as I've seen it in action, it is the truth.

I've gotta go, but I'll discuss further after I've read further.
Oh, my bad, I missed this:

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
The VOX opinion seems to suggest that Racism via seminal events/incidents stopped at some point with presumably Slavery being the earthquake itself and all aftershocks ending with the fall of segregation.


No, I'm not saying that racism ended. The earthquake/aftershock analogy was designed to distinguish between the situations that absolutely prevented average black progress, no matter how hard we worked at it, from the situations that I believe do not prevent it. Do not say that I believe "racism ended."

My position recognizes that "hazards resulting from the earthquake" that I referred to are racism. But they're not hazards that absolutely defeat any chance of collective self-improvement, the way enslavement, Jim Crow, and the Black Codes did.
Haha.. this is funny... Gotta love this..I will be back in a few hours but I must comment on Ebony's post. I must say I have debated a lot of people and had far more heated exchanges with men and women than I did with ebony and none of them ever responded in the way Ebony has. Wow.. Well I will be back...LOL

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
VOX...

I tried my best to outline what it is that you believe... And this really is an abstraction. I say that in the sense that these views both yours and ours can't account for what that means in our real life perspectives.

I tried to characterize your analogy and qualified it by saying you "seem to suggest the the seminal [racially debilitating] events" are things of the past. I gather that by the way you delineate the great racial epochs as if today's experiences are pale in comparison. That might be true but I don't think you're analogy accurately portrays that or takes into account the events of today and how they affect us.

I can understand how you feel that way but that does not say that while I disagree with that portrail that I think that whatever we face now no matter how much I might try to magnify them "that [they] absolutely defeat any chance of collective self-improvement, the way enslavement, Jim Crow, and the Black Codes did."

Look at your language. ABSOLUTELY DEFEAT... DEFEAT ANY CHANCE...

Does that seem like a fair characterization??
ALL - or - NOTHING??
quote:
Do not say that I believe "racism ended."
Did I really say that? All I did was try to lay-out what you were saying. If you say by, your analogy, that both the EarthQuake and AfterShocks are over and the coast is clear to rebuild then you are, in fact, suggesting that the prohibitive effects of racism are over.

I'm not prepared to say that.

However, that doesn't mean that I think there is something holding us ALL back. I can answer for myself, honestly, and say nothing held me back. But, my life chances, etc. are not a predictor of every Black person. One Black person even from the most impoverished background, both economic & socially, that achieves is, also, no predictor of the whole.

We are talking about "collective self-improvement" right...?

You believe nothing is hindering us from rebuilding... Do you not??

You're suggesting is that all we have to contend with are the "outgrowths" (or what you called 'hazards resulting from the earthquake') from what I called the seminal events - Slavery & Segregation - and, I assume, you believe that there are no new 'racist events' that prohibit our collective self-improvement efforts.

That would be where I disagree with you. I believe we can speak to new phenomenons, new events in the history of racism that we have faced even today and that everything besides the racist attitudes themselves are not necessarily 'outgrowths' of the racist past.

VOX... again it is unfair to characterize in the extreme ABSOLUTELY or ANY CHANCE way you did my view (or FAHEEM's) as me saying we are doomed and there is nothing we can do. That is an extreme mischaracterization.

Now, how you can somehow argue that there is nothing wrong with the sadistic toned "Black people are their own worst enemy" but have a problem with brothers saying racism is still a significant factor I don't know...

It would seem that if you think that nothing prohibits us then the question of solidarity, which has been present throughout our history,
would likewise not be a significant factor in stopping in delaying our self-improvement as a people....

Just my thoughts...
But please stay away from the extremes!


PEACE!

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on June 22, 2003 at 05:15 PM.]
"Through explaining your initial intent, you've put a different spin on the tone of things."

Ebony... Those are your words you once used on me. The "Spin Factor" definitely applies to what you are saying here now about your "question".

Ebony, the only reason why it is a big deal is because, for some reason, you can't be realistic or expect us not to. It's funny to me how you can be so quick to say we "don't know what's in [your] head" when you were quick as lightining to jump all over something I posted in probably our first interaction in this forum - aka when you definitely didn't know me.

I guess you get special consideration though...huh Ebby?

This thread was laid out to explore in particular the two different views of VOX's and FAHEEM's EarthQuake & AfterShocks ANALOGY. FAHEEM mentioned your question/analogy ONLY in passing, yet you got all touchy and took it personal.

Because of the fact that you seem less than honest with what I consider bigtime Spin and Damage Control on your part, I decided to breakdown things the way I see/saw it.

Your comment, to me, was in the midst of a debate that all centered around 'our struggle' and I just can't believe that your "question" had nothing to do with that. No matter how you want to portray it now or how you 'fantasize' about it in your mind, the mention of "Black people being their own worst enemy" is, in fact, a commentary on our struggle and specifically how we are 'hindering' our own selves as opposed to White people via racism.

That was the context of all the discussion that evolved from the Poll you posted and without a doubt the context of WhipWrex posts/concerns... which we - YOU, Noah, and myself - all responded to - it and its IMPLICATIONS!

But... maybe you're right. We must have figured you all wrong on this one.... Wink

Okay! Ebony,,, You're RIGHT! And we're ALL wrong!! Razz

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on June 22, 2003 at 05:26 PM.]


[This message was edited by Nmaginate on June 22, 2003 at 11:16 PM.]
VOX...

I think JAZZDOG has a pretty balanced view on this:
    "Any problems that we encounter today in our communities are not the result of slavery but the result of current and on-going mental and physical assualts upon the black community..."
That quote from his post here speaks to what I'm saying...

Nevertheless, you will note he acknowledges, as I do or have tried to, that there is a "spark of truth" in what you are saying as well.

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