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I challenge anyone to show me, name one nation, which has done so much, virtually, for every other nation on the planet. Is there anyone else out there who feels the same? Is it wisdom to "trash 'Old Glory' which is the only nation, despite its ineptitude on many fronts, that can say: America, is a very special Place. America needs all of its peoples on her side at this critical juncture in its existence.

Let's face it, there are many out there that would love to destroy our freedom-loving ways!!

Bill C
BILLC
Original Post
quote:
Let's face it, there are many out there that would love to destroy our freedom-loving ways!!


While I am american, through and through [I know nothing else], I find this kind of histronics blatantly and provably false.

While I will grant that there are those who detest what america has come to represent, e.g., economic and social oppression; I challenge you to identify these "Many" who would love to destroy our freedom-loving ways.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill C:

I challenge anyone to show me, name one nation, which has done so much, virtually, for every other nation on the planet.


I challenge anyone to show me a nation that has done so much TO every other nation on the planet. 8
England did a lot of dirt world wide for a long time, remember there was a time when the sun did not set on the british empire.
quote:
Originally posted by Wiz:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill C:

I challenge anyone to show me, name one nation, which has done so much, virtually, for every other nation on the planet.


I challenge anyone to show me a nation that has done so much TO every other nation on the planet. 8
England did a lot of dirt world wide for a long time, remember there was a time when the sun did not set on the british empire.


You are right, in their "Day", the British ruled the 7 seas. But we had to and still are their "protectors. It was the USA who saved the day for them during WWII. In fact aren't they the same peoples, as in Brothers?

Bill C
Let me add, I have lived in New York for several years. One of the things that fascinated me in the City was how many nationalities, ethnic groups, races, a truly melting pot of others from around the world. Just walking down any Manhattan avenue or boulevard was an experience in trying to decipher conversations as one navigated those busy, bustling thoroughfares.
The chatter to me was phenomenal as each ethnic group communicated in its own tongue as we walked past each other. Remember also the various ethnic groups that were represented on that tragic day of September 11 when those imposing towers of the World Trade Center (one of my favorite sites for experiencing the marvel of American diversity) were decimated.

My challenge remains...

Bill C
Oh yes! And lest they be forgotten, a modicum of deep gratitude is owed to all men and women who serve in our military around the world-many who would gladly give up their lives-to keep America this beautiful land of which I have had the pleasure to vacation, live in or pass through pretty much all of it...

They ,too, gladly give ALL for those who want to trash 'OLD GLORY' Smile
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Bill C:

I challenge anyone to show me, name one nation, which has done so much, virtually, for every other nation on the planet.


I challenge anyone to show me a nation that has done so much TO every other nation on the planet. 8


And that's what I meant by ineptitude...
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
America is an abstraction. Abstractions don't DO anything.

America didn't put men on the moon. Most Americans couldn't tell you the distance to the moon. A nation is just social group think based on childhood indoctrination.

IndoctriNATION

um


I would love to invite you to attend some of my "study halls". Some of your thinking may change. Some of my 6-graders would say, for instance, to the moon? A no brainer...and answer. In fact I know of an idio savant who could give that answer in very graphic, succinct terms such as, "One,if..." My challenge remains Smile

Bill C
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
Yeah, I'll 'talk about' America.

And...'talk' bad.

America belongs to me, and millions like me.

I'll 'talk about' America whenever I want.

What's your problem?

Oh...'Stand up' regarding what...somethings yes...somethings no.

PEACE

Jim Chester


And to that: I say, Right on!

Bill C
I always find it interesting that most of the folks complaining about how bad America is are people living here, like someone told me long ago, if you hate sleeping in a pile of shit, get up and go. Obiviously alot of people like where they are sleeping tonight.

I love this country and feel no need to live anywhere else but here, so I say that gives me a right when necessary to be overly critical of some of the shit that we do. The problem is that America overall is not bad, we just have the uncannily ability to pick bad leaders that give that impression.
Know what else sucks? That slavery was sanctioned in the Constitution. (All right, so the word "slave" doesn't appear, but when a distinction is made between "free persons" and "all other persons," well....)

America likes to project an image of benevolence around the world, spreading democracy and what not, well, democracy America-style. (What about a peoples right to self determination?)

Whenever this country claims to be doing good half way around the world I'm always a bit cynical of its motives, given its history of mistreating its own as second class citizens.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

I always find it interesting that most of the folks complaining about how bad America is are people living here, like someone told me long ago, if you hate sleeping in a pile of shit, get up and go.



I always find statements like these interesting. It seems that people who advocate the "like it or leave it" mantra have forgotten that citizens have the duty to overthrow a despotic/tyrannical gov't at one end and at the very least are supposed to criticize it to keep it from becoming tyrannical. That is in the constitution.

"Like it or leave it" is unconstitutional.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
I would say I am glad to be an American .. but proud may be pushing it just a little. sck

America has done some really horrendous things in addition to some of the good it has done. I'm not proud that it has before, and continues today to cause the deaths of innocent people in other parts of the world.

That really sucks. td6

I would have to say that while I believe that I appreciate the advantages that I have as an American, with ER, I can not say that I am proud to one.

I am not a patriot, and have no aspirations to ever be one. I am not moved by the waving of the flag or the playing of the national anthem. I agonized over signing with Selective Service, finally doing so, but I remember telling my father that if I were called to serve, I would refuse - to which he threatened to disown me.

Indeed, the only America that I would stand up for is America as a potentiality, of what it could be. I will work for this potentiality coming to fruition. In this sense my feelings resonate with Langston Hughes famous poem, Let America be America Again, for America never was America to me...There's never been equality for me, Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free."[/i]

Finally, I do not believe that it is our "freedom loving ways" that people wish to destroy. It may be, however, an American way of life that has been built at the expense of peoples around the globe. Moreover, I would suggest that a cost benefit analysis of the pain and suffering that we have caused by our inordinate demands on the world's resources (natural, agricultural, etc.), the exploitation of populations to produce goods and services to fulfill our greed instead of simply meeting our needs; that what we give back in return is trivial. There are numerous countries around the world that do more with less than we do. An example, you will find Cuban and or Cuban trained doctors in underdeveloped regions around the globe. In terms of medical aid and support, they put America to shame.

So, "do I stand up for America?" I would probably answer no, if you mean the America that is. If you mean the America that could be, I very well might answer "yes".
quote:
Originally posted by Santana St. Cloud:
Whenever this country claims to be doing good half way around the world I'm always a bit cynical of its motives, given its history of mistreating its own as second class citizens.


And well you should be cynical, Santana St. Cloud. It's many a 'good deed' that is attached to ulerior motives ... or the expectation for something in return.
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
Nationalism means we are supposed to think like 6th graders. It is about the indoctrination of children, just like religion.


I read Michael Parenti's "Superpatriotism" to try to understand this. "Superpatriotism is the nationalistic hype propagated by officialdom, the media, and various flag-waving groups." Parenti also talks about how nationalism associates itself with religion, school, the military and sports.
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
I would say I am glad to be an American .. but proud may be pushing it just a little. sck

America has done some really horrendous things in addition to some of the good it has done. I'm not proud that it has before, and continues today to cause the deaths of innocent people in other parts of the world.

That really sucks. td6

I would have to say that while I believe that I appreciate the advantages that I have as an American, with ER, I can not say that I am proud to one.

I am not a patriot, and have no aspirations to ever be one. I am not moved by the waving of the flag or the playing of the national anthem. I agonized over signing with Selective Service, finally doing so, but I remember telling my father that if I were called to serve, I would refuse - to which he threatened to disown me.

Indeed, the only America that I would stand up for is America as a potentiality, of what it could be. I will work for this potentiality coming to fruition. In this sense my feelings resonate with Langston Hughes famous poem, Let America be America Again, for America never was America to me...There's never been equality for me, Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free."[/i]

Finally, I do not believe that it is our "freedom loving ways" that people wish to destroy. It may be, however, an American way of life that has been built at the expense of peoples around the globe. Moreover, I would suggest that a cost benefit analysis of the pain and suffering that we have caused by our inordinate demands on the world's resources (natural, agricultural, etc.), the exploitation of populations to produce goods and services to fulfill our greed instead of simply meeting our needs; that what we give back in return is trivial. There are numerous countries around the world that do more with less than we do. An example, you will find Cuban and or Cuban trained doctors in underdeveloped regions around the globe. In terms of medical aid and support, they put America to shame.

So, "do I stand up for America?" I would probably answer no, if you mean the America that is. If you mean the America that could be, I very well might answer "yes".


rock rock
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

I always find it interesting that most of the folks complaining about how bad America is are people living here, like someone told me long ago, if you hate sleeping in a pile of shit, get up and go.



fro I agree with Jazzdog...in a sense me being a WOMAN and there's not too many places out there that love women....especially places in the eastern hemisphere and most areas in Africa. Nope, I'm just gonna have to deal with the "smell", say my peace and go home. And look I can say my peace without fear of some maniac threatening to cut my vagina out of my body! Laugh all you want But! it's true in places that don't give a fock WHAT women think...hell you as woman can't even show your ankles. Now...that's not good folks! This reminds of that woman in Iran/or somewhere in the middle east who was "dating" someone outside her "clan"...what happened? Her male family member beat her to death! In front of a lot of people who stood and TOOK PICTURES! Nope! I rather take my chances in good ole USA. I can be who I want, say what I want and keep my "coochie" in stack all at the same time. I'm just sayinBig Grin fro
quote:
Originally posted by Bill C:
Let me add, I have lived in New York for several years. One of the things that fascinated me in the City was how many nationalities, ethnic groups, races, a truly melting pot of others from around the world. Just walking down any Manhattan avenue or boulevard was an experience in trying to decipher conversations as one navigated those busy, bustling thoroughfares.
The chatter to me was phenomenal as each ethnic group communicated in its own tongue as we walked past each other. Remember also the various ethnic groups that were represented on that tragic day of September 11 when those imposing towers of the World Trade Center (one of my favorite sites for experiencing the marvel of American diversity) were decimated.

My challenge remains...

Bill C


Did you ever wonder why all these people are here? What global forces are at play? The main reason immigrants come here nowadays is TO MAKE MONEY... Yes, there are some refugees of war and oppressive regimes(and I'll adress that in more detail), but these are definately not the main reasons for immigration.

If multinational corporations(many based or started in Amerikkka) and the Amerikkkan(and other western government agencies like the CIA, Mossad ect.) weren't screwing up their local economies with resource rape and labour exploitation... Not to mention funding and arming, sometimes BOTH SIDES of wars, installing and/or supporting despotic regimes(dictators and corrupt leaders) that are pro-Amerikkan buisiness interest... than all of the immigrant people I know would LOVE to be in their home countries, with their families and friends. Basically, they are coming here to get some of the wealth that is and has been stolen from their countries or origin, and has accumulated in the West.

As the lyrics of a song go, and they always sing... "It's because of the situation, that we find ourselves here in Babylon".

The Amerikkkan populous needs to stop having this naive and ill informed political world view. It really makes us look stupid to the very immigrants you are talking about. It's time to stop believing the myths the media pushes to dumb us down, and catch up with reality.

quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

I always find it interesting that most of the folks complaining about how bad America is are people living here, like someone told me long ago, if you hate sleeping in a pile of shit, get up and go.



I always find statements like these interesting. It seems that people who advocate the "like it or leave it" mantra have forgotten that citizens have the duty to overthrow a despotic/tyrannical gov't at one end and at the very least are supposed to criticize it to keep it from becoming tyrannical. That is in the constitution.

"Like it or leave it" is unconstitutional.


yeah Also, Amerikkan imperialism is a GLOBAL force... Jazzdog, please point me to a place where Amerikkkan and Western meddling doesn't go on and I'll pack tomorrow... but I will be packing eventually anyways.

quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
I would say I am glad to be an American .. but proud may be pushing it just a little. sck

America has done some really horrendous things in addition to some of the good it has done. I'm not proud that it has before, and continues today to cause the deaths of innocent people in other parts of the world.

That really sucks. td6

I would have to say that while I believe that I appreciate the advantages that I have as an American, with ER, I can not say that I am proud to one.

I am not a patriot, and have no aspirations to ever be one. I am not moved by the waving of the flag or the playing of the national anthem. I agonized over signing with Selective Service, finally doing so, but I remember telling my father that if I were called to serve, I would refuse - to which he threatened to disown me.

Indeed, the only America that I would stand up for is America as a potentiality, of what it could be. I will work for this potentiality coming to fruition. In this sense my feelings resonate with Langston Hughes famous poem, Let America be America Again, for America never was America to me...There's never been equality for me, Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free."[/i]

Finally, I do not believe that it is our "freedom loving ways" that people wish to destroy. It may be, however, an American way of life that has been built at the expense of peoples around the globe. Moreover, I would suggest that a cost benefit analysis of the pain and suffering that we have caused by our inordinate demands on the world's resources (natural, agricultural, etc.), the exploitation of populations to produce goods and services to fulfill our greed instead of simply meeting our needs; that what we give back in return is trivial. There are numerous countries around the world that do more with less than we do. An example, you will find Cuban and or Cuban trained doctors in underdeveloped regions around the globe. In terms of medical aid and support, they put America to shame.

So, "do I stand up for America?" I would probably answer no, if you mean the America that is. If you mean the America that could be, I very well might answer "yes".


yeah appl
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by kresge:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
I would say I am glad to be an American .. but proud may be pushing it just a little. sck

America has done some really horrendous things in addition to some of the good it has done. I'm not proud that it has before, and continues today to cause the deaths of innocent people in other parts of the world.

That really sucks. td6

I would have to say that while I believe that I appreciate the advantages that I have as an American, with ER, I can not say that I am proud to one.

I am not a patriot, and have no aspirations to ever be one. I am not moved by the waving of the flag or the playing of the national anthem. I agonized over signing with Selective Service, finally doing so, but I remember telling my father that if I were called to serve, I would refuse - to which he threatened to disown me.

Indeed, the only America that I would stand up for is America as a potentiality, of what it could be. I will work for this potentiality coming to fruition. In this sense my feelings resonate with Langston Hughes famous poem, Let America be America Again, for America never was America to me...There's never been equality for me, Nor freedom in this "homeland of the free."[/i]

Finally, I do not believe that it is our "freedom loving ways" that people wish to destroy. It may be, however, an American way of life that has been built at the expense of peoples around the globe. Moreover, I would suggest that a cost benefit analysis of the pain and suffering that we have caused by our inordinate demands on the world's resources (natural, agricultural, etc.), the exploitation of populations to produce goods and services to fulfill our greed instead of simply meeting our needs; that what we give back in return is trivial. There are numerous countries around the world that do more with less than we do. An example, you will find Cuban and or Cuban trained doctors in underdeveloped regions around the globe. In terms of medical aid and support, they put America to shame.

So, "do I stand up for America?" I would probably answer no, if you mean the America that is. If you mean the America that could be, I very well might answer "yes".


bow appl yeah
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

I always find it interesting that most of the folks complaining about how bad America is are people living here, like someone told me long ago, if you hate sleeping in a pile of shit, get up and go.



I always find statements like these interesting. It seems that people who advocate the "like it or leave it" mantra have forgotten that citizens have the duty to overthrow a despotic/tyrannical gov't at one end and at the very least are supposed to criticize it to keep it from becoming tyrannical. That is in the constitution.

"Like it or leave it" is unconstitutional.


Its not a matter of like it or leave it, its a matter of doing something about it or stop bitching. I am not the only one on this board who has heard people bitch about how bad America is but when you ask them what they are doing to change it...they reply NOTHING.

Whether or not you truly believe that your vote counts the point is that it is the most familiar expression of showing your dissatification with the policies of this country and the people who come up with them, but no we have folks who bitch and then don't even bother to vote, march, or do whatever shows the status quo that people don't like the shit they do. While no one is seriously expecting the government to be overthrown, criticizing it without displaying some tangible evidence of your unhappiness means people are more comfortable bitching about America and living here versus bitching and doing something about it. It would almost respectable to bitch and leave this country as proof of your conviction.

Maybe a better expression would be to "like it, leave it or get your ass up and do something about it".
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jazzdog:

Its not a matter of like it or leave it, its a matter of doing something about it or stop bitching.



"Bitching" as you call it, is part of the democratic process. The democratic process and the constitution encourage "bitching" about government. There is no provision in the democratic process or teh constitution to stop bitching because it is a healthy component in a democracy. People who don't understand this, don't really understand democracy.

wiki blurb:

Freedom of speech is crucial in any participatory democracy, because open discussions of candidates are essential for voters to make informed decisions during elections. It is through speech that people can influence their government's choice of policies. Also, public officials are held accountable through criticisms that can pave the way for their replacement. The US Supreme Court has spoken of the ability to criticize government and government officials as "the central meaning of the First Amendment." New York Times v. Sullivan. But "guarantees for speech and press are not the preserve of political expression or comment upon public affairs, essential as those are to healthy government." Time, Inc. v. Hill.

Some suggest that when citizens refrain from voicing their discontent because they fear retribution, the government can no longer be responsive to them, thus it is less accountable for its actions. Defenders of free speech often allege that this is the main reason why governments suppress free speech – to avoid accountability....



There is no requirement to "shut up or leave" and the suggestion of such goes against the principles of democracy.
By a show of hands I want to know how many of you muhfuckas have lived in another country long enough to make the distinction that the U.S.A. is such a shitty country.


*Crickets*



That's what I thought. Not one damn response. And vacationing in a foreign country for a few days doesn't count. I'm talking about being a resident of a foreign country. And I don't want to hear shit about what you read online or in a book in a library or what somebody you know said about living there. I want to know first hand experiences of living in a foriegn country long enough to have developed an objective, unbiased opinion.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Why so many curses? Why so much venom? I have lived in more than one country and currently split my time between the uk and the usa. Both countries have their good and bad points like everywhere else.

I have also lived in nigeria and been to quite a few african countries and I can tell kokolicious that your "coochie" is quite safe on the continent. Unless you count someone wanting to have sex with you as aggression. flowers
quote:
Why so many curses? Why so much venom? I have lived in more than one country and currently split my time between the uk and the usa. Both countries have their good and bad points like everywhere else.


How many American Indians have you met in your visits to the US?

What happened to them?

Out of sight out of mind?

One's personal experiences don't tell the BIG PICTURE.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3947724357632360753

umbra
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

Whether or not you truly believe that your vote counts the point is that it is the most familiar expression of showing your dissatification with the policies of this country and the people who come up with them, but no we have folks who bitch and then don't even bother to vote, march, or do whatever shows the status quo that people don't like the shit they do. While no one is seriously expecting the government to be overthrown, criticizing it without displaying some tangible evidence of your unhappiness means people are more comfortable bitching about America and living here versus bitching and doing something about it. It would almost respectable to bitch and leave this country as proof of your conviction.

Maybe a better expression would be to "like it, leave it or get your ass up and do something about it".


tfro Any consciously Black person in America knows we have to fight on many fronts, and that nobody is going to willingly fix our plight, so we best be about "doing for self."

That being said, I buy into the concept of what the nation should be, fully realizing that it's not there.

I consider the nation as an unfinished portrait. When completed, if done right, it has the potential to be beautiful. But the painting ain't done. ...so don't ask me to stand up and applaud it. Keep painting.
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
quote:
Why so many curses? Why so much venom? I have lived in more than one country and currently split my time between the uk and the usa. Both countries have their good and bad points like everywhere else.


How many American Indians have you met in your visits to the US?

What happened to them?

Out of sight out of mind?

One's personal experiences don't tell the BIG PICTURE.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3947724357632360753

umbra



Visits to the us? I live here and have lived here since 1968.I split time in the uk. Also I believe we were asked for our "personal experiences". Lastly I'm willing to bet I've been in more sweat lodges than you have. I get my info from the sources not from video. Thanks anyway though.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

I always find it interesting that most of the folks complaining about how bad America is are people living here, like someone told me long ago, if you hate sleeping in a pile of shit, get up and go.



I always find statements like these interesting. It seems that people who advocate the "like it or leave it" mantra have forgotten that citizens have the duty to overthrow a despotic/tyrannical gov't at one end and at the very least are supposed to criticize it to keep it from becoming tyrannical. That is in the constitution.

"Like it or leave it" is unconstitutional.


Its not a matter of like it or leave it, its a matter of doing something about it or stop bitching. I am not the only one on this board who has heard people bitch about how bad America is but when you ask them what they are doing to change it...they reply NOTHING.

Whether or not you truly believe that your vote counts the point is that it is the most familiar expression of showing your dissatification with the policies of this country and the people who come up with them, but no we have folks who bitch and then don't even bother to vote, march, or do whatever shows the status quo that people don't like the shit they do. While no one is seriously expecting the government to be overthrown, criticizing it without displaying some tangible evidence of your unhappiness means people are more comfortable bitching about America and living here versus bitching and doing something about it. It would almost respectable to bitch and leave this country as proof of your conviction.

Maybe a better expression would be to "like it, leave it or get your ass up and do something about it".


yeah

I'd like to throw in those who feel the need to complain about, nitpick and demean those who are doing something whether popular or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:
By a show of hands I want to know how many of you muhfuckas have lived in another country long enough to make the distinction that the U.S.A. is such a shitty country.


*Crickets*



That's what I thought. Not one damn response. And vacationing in a foreign country for a few days doesn't count. I'm talking about being a resident of a foreign country. And I don't want to hear shit about what you read online or in a book in a library or what somebody you know said about living there. I want to know first hand experiences of living in a foriegn country long enough to have developed an objective, unbiased opinion.


My opinion from living in other contries is there is no other place I'd rather !!!!!!
quote:
I challenge anyone to show me, name one nation, which has done so much, virtually, for every other nation on the planet. Is there anyone else out there who feels the same?


quote:
Also I believe we were asked for our "personal experiences". Lastly I'm willing to bet I've been in more sweat lodges than you have. I get my info from the sources not from video.


I don't see where it specified "personal experiences" in the OP but there is too much going on for "personal experiences" to cover the BIG PICTURE. Some things must be figured out because they aren't in any sources.

http://www.bnvillage.co.uk/news-politics-village/73910-...chno-capitalism.html

umbra

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