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You haven't substantiated anything you've said either.

Saying "follow the paper .. people do anything for money" doesn't explain why other people don't have the problem we're discussing.

And it grossly underestimates people ...

Your "money is everything" argument is MORE vague IMO.

I've at least sketched very specific instances of how black institutions have effected me (and others).

I think that's far more specific and concrete than anything you've said.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

I'm probably one of the least ideological people on this site ... in terms of not being easy to pigeonhole ...


If the topic of the black middle class comes up - there is no question about where you will come down and what you will say.



That's because ya'll are such a pain in the azz ... tongue
MBM, I hope this wasn't personal ... but man, I'm telling you about what I see. What I've seen for a few years now. From traveling all over the place. Having lived in several states. And what I know from growing up.

Yes. I admit. My stories are not proof. They are anecdotal. But it's adding up to a big pictures. And a consistent one. I'd be a fool not to notice.

I went to the Gary II convention (billed nationally as the great black summit) ... and there were supposed to be thousands of people there just like the first one.

And it flopped attendance-wise.

Why?

They didn't make even a token gesture to reach out to the younger generation. It looked like a reunion.

You saw it even in the entertainment that they planned: Jerry Butler! .... Jerry Butler was hot during the FIRST convention in 1971!

This is what I see and it's what I experience.

And I suspect you're not receptive to an institutional critique because you're one of those people who are mostly well served by our institutions (or served well enough) and have a vested interest in not seeing what's wrong with them.

And hence your repeated claim not to see how what I'm saying relates to the thread.

But I sincerely believe record execs are the least of our worries.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

But I sincerely believe record execs are the least of our worries.


Again, you seek to universalize a conversation about something quite specific. The topic was not about the ills of African America, it was about how - based on the influence and management of the record business - we are complicit in our own self-destruction. What you write about relates to what YOU want to talk about - and that's surely a meaningful, important topic. It's just not this topic.

At the end of the day, you are insinuating that the record business is somehow run outside of the control of the record business. You seem to infer that rap music just kind of organically grows and is a pure function of the distress of the young. Personally, I think it's sad that you seem not to be willing to give your peers the benefit of the doubt that the foolishness they express is as much manufactured as "real". Clearly, there is angst. There is pain. There is frustration. But that is not anything new in African America. What is new (and noteworthy) is that white folks are both getting squarely entertained as well as fat rich off of our depictions of their stereotypes of us - as expressed in rap music.
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Why geez ... thanks for putting words in my mouth ... until now, I had no idea what I was trying to say .. pretty amazing considering you spent the whole time denying you understood what I was saying ...

I tell you what ... you go ahead and talk about whatever YOU want in this thread ... clearly, you're going to do that ANYWAY ... I'm not finding this "conversation" very meaningful ... so I'm going to go make some photos ... Smile
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quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

And I'm convinced that when ideologues are presented with notions that stretch the limits of their narrow conceptions, that they either split, begin personal attacks, or change the subject.



Enjoyed this and the attempt at a dialogue... And while I'm tempted, so tempted... I won't even go there. Even though I'm like on your side here, MBM... Boy am I so tempted.

Okay... Now that I've worked through that... I'd just like to say your quote above pretty much describes all of us at one point or another. I can say I particularly get frustrated when there is not TWO in the TANGO.

I'd like for folks to explain their reasoning, whether I'm "attacking" or strictly and genuinely trying to understand how they arrived at their conclusions, especially ones that try to "attack" and make assertions about my views or thoughts.


A NOTE ON SOLUTIONS:

To be frank, I don't know if that's something forums are conducive to and a lot of our personal frustrations and all the cares, concerns and "blame" this, "blame" that, BLAME US sentiments are really about what we all may perceive as our own powerlessness to effect meaningful and significant solutions.

More I can say on that but "WHAT'S YOUR SOLUTION?" is, at times, a cruel and counterproductive game we play on these forums.

I think the thing is to go beyond vent our frustrations and expressing mere sentiments. The goal, IMO, when we're serious... is to move towards making honest assessments, acknowledging the reality, whether we like it or not, and then addressing the roles we can play, however small.

.... Okay, that's enough... No more ramble from me.

CARRY ON!!

I'll just pull up a chair and watch the fireworks.
There will be NO carrying on in this this thread. He can talk to his damn self like he's been doing all along anyway ... while incidently illustrating, with his tone deaf responses, the truth of much of what I'm been saying.

To protect the integrity of the presentation of my ideas, my remaining involvement on this thread will be directed solely at re-constructing my badly mutilated post from yesterday.
I just read through all this. Before it got derailed, I think one point that hasn't been illuminated is this:

We (Black folk) are the "tastemakers". We give music, especially hip-hop, credibility. As Scarface (Houston rap artist) said: "If the streets give it credit, then the squares gon' rep it"

This is where we still maintain & can exert our power. If we give credibility to more positive & uplifting music, that's what the masses will want.


BTW, HB can you shoot me some links to alternative sites. I remember you posted a link to Katrina Clap, but I've haven't been able to find it again.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
I just read through all this. Before it got derailed, I think one point that hasn't been illuminated is this:

We (Black folk) are the "tastemakers". We give music, especially hip-hop, credibility. As Scarface (Houston rap artist) said: "If the streets give it credit, then the squares gon' rep it"

This is where we still maintain & can exert our power. If we give credibility to more positive & uplifting music, that's what the masses will want.





DD, this tread was never "derailed". I pointed out in the very beginning that hip hop itself was born with no corporate backing whatsoever.

Namely, if MBM's funadamental point is correct, about the business creating the culture, then hip hop NEVER would have come into being at all. If he's correct we wouldn't even be having this discussion because hip hop never would have gotten off the ground.

He keeps dancing around (and avoiding the very powerful ramifications of) this fundamental observation with his wack azz (and terribly vague) retort about business coming along and corrupting art. Which basically neutralizes the observation by ignoring it.

If anything in this thread is "feel good" it's HIS thesis.

Then he keeps replying to me "Why gee I don't know what you're talking about or how it relates to my thesis" ... all the while failing to understand that his thesis isn't worth much ...

This thread was not "derailed".

It was taken to a higher level.
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quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
The discussion before the personal attacks was very interesting


Telling...



I tell you what:

I don't appreciate this person coming from the privilege that he does having the fucking gall to tell me "That's life" ... all the while waxing concerned about our culture and presuming to inform us about how big business effects the less privileged. Which by the way is VERY typical of PRECISELY the type of behavior I've been describing.

Am I ticked off?

Damned skippy. Smile
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I'm cool with that but you fit the description and I hope you're keeping it all in context and not overpersonalizing what's at issue.

There is a serious problem and it's seriously problematic for people, you or whoever, to pretend like their limited personal experience (alone) makes them an authority or gives them reason to be offended when the conversation is not about them personally.

Some of the themes you played on in your personal attacks here were the very one's you threw at me. You've set a pattern, none of which shows a genuine desire to discuss things after certain buttons of yours a pushed even when, again, things aren't directed to you personally.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
There is a serious problem and it's seriously problematic for people, you or whoever, to pretend like their limited personal experience (alone) makes them an authority or gives them reason to be offended when the conversation is not about them personally.



Look, Nate.

I NEVER claimed to be an authority.

In fact, I've indicated several times ON THIS THREAD that I've been providing personal anecdotes - NOT proof.


I've conceded some of MBM's point. I.e. on a deeper level, there IS a relationship between business, economic conditions, and culture ... but I don't believe he's found it.

So don't pull that BS out on me.

My issue is with people who don't seem bothered in the least to pay attention to other positions in the discussion.

My issue is with people who wage a "debate" by essentially ignoring the good points that other people make.

And that includes YOU ...

That is very much your style when you get into rant mode.

So you can take that crap you're peddling and shove it. Because it doesn't accurately describe what's going on.

You getting into this is like the ULTIMATE pot calling the kettle.

I'm perfectly familiar with MBM's position here ... and understand it. Being the hip hop fan that I am, I've heard it and repeated it myself a hundred times.

Part of me believes it. But I think it fails to really come to terms with what's happening.

But has MBM shown a genuine desire to discuss this issue when time after time after time he's ignored most of what I've said?????

Seriously ... his responses to me have indicated to me the merest skimming of the surface of my position. And many times his responses seem like he's dealing with a straw man responding to things I never said.

Nahhh ... you need to go somewhere with that ...

You've really gotta nerve.
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quote:
Nahhh ... you need to go somewhere with that ...

You've really gotta nerve.


Dude, first... GET A GRIP!!

Then explain what you see as important in this little quip:

quote:
My issue is with people who wage a "debate" by essentially ignoring the good points that other people make.


I mean, seriously... if you want to play POT & KETTLE, you and I both know you or anyone else using THIS EXCUSE have NOT acknowledge, at least genuinely, the "good points" other people - i.e. their debate opponent - make.

Regardless... WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT? Why do you or anyone else need to be VALIDATED in a debate?

If your points are "GOOD" you should be able to make them and, in making them, not be worried about whether someone else accepts, acknowledge or concede to what you perceive to be your "good" points.

I've debated MBM and, as I said, I was very tempted... By that I mean, he was cool with you cursing him up and down... And I'll leave it at that.

And, yes, I got plenty of nerve... That's why I got banned... And folks used to blame TONE LOCO on me. LOL!

PS: I already commented on the subject but YOU did not acknowledge it/me. YOU missed it. Like KWELI, all the atention you want for your "good" points, you don't reciprocate. That's just one bit of proof.

When you spazzed with me before.... NOT A POINT I MADE did you acknowledge.


So........ NEXT!!!!

___________
Look you.

In my book, ignoring the good points of your opponent is a form of dishonesty.

My point was not about being "validated"...

It's called good debate form. In the academic sense. Not in the "spinning" political sense (which I think is little better than "car salesmanship").

So my issue was about showing real interest in the truth.

If you're really interested in "truth" .. rather than merely being "right" ... then you learn how to listen to others.


PS: Not only did I see your points ...

I actually helped to make your BIGGEST point.

You said so yourself.


Remember? Smile

I ACTUALLY changed my mind, adopted YOUR position. And put forth a stronger (and clearer) argument for it than you did yourself.

Because I concluded that you were right. Even though your reasoning was muddy and your rhetoric was abusive.


PPS: So you can go fuck yourself.

And I mean that one sincerely.

Spazz. Smile
Dude, you have to establish OBJECTIVELY, honestly how your "good" points where exactly that and how, especially drawing on the stuff you tried to pull with me... how that stuff was RELEVANT via the CONTEXT.

So, what you perceive as "ignoring" may or may not have anything to do with you actually having "good" points.

And, IMO, there is no need to say, "You make a good point there", especially on issues where folks are coming from, arguing from divergent angles.

Seriously, what's the to acknowledge and why acknowledge when (and I'll speak for myself, of course) the person you're engaged in conversation with isn't on the same wavelength?

I think the issue has to do with the type of issues. And I think "good" form changes depending on how far apart folks are on the issue and the nature of issue itself.

But go ahead and point out all your "good" points.
[*smart comment deleted*]

________________________________________

PS:

As I've more or less stated before, I come from a different perspective... I simple feel... well, I'll just note this again:

I'd like for folks to explain their reasoning, whether I'm "attacking" or strictly and genuinely trying to understand how they arrived at their conclusions, especially ones that try to "attack" and make assertions about my views or thoughts.


And I'll say, all I try to do is make my point. I don't know why you can't be satisfied with just making yours - without having to have someone acknowledge your points.

IMO, if they're strong enough, one way or the other, they will be acknowledged. Seems like your problem is: You want to dictate what points you folks should acknowledge and how they should.

That's simply not genuine. And, again, there is a problem with reciprocation or your selective recall... something.

_________________
Nate, in that argument you allude to you were so wrong ...

I believe you knew you were wrong then ... but were dead set on being right.

And you still can't admit it ... now you're making shit up in retrospect ... that's SO pathetic .. and a little pathological.

Or maybe you got Alzheimer's ... sck

But anyway, I got stuff to do.

You all can have this thread.

It's all yours now. Smile
Also... when you do this...

quote:
PPS: So you can go fuck yourself.

And I mean that one sincerely.


Make sure you get something out of it because I am NOT fazed. So get a good HUFF when you PUFF.

quote:
PS: Not only did I see your points ...

I actually helped to make your BIGGEST point.

You said so yourself.

Remember?


NO! Don't have clue what you're talking about since this was my first post on this thread:


quote:
Just started reading this... so I know there's tons of stuff I've missed... but corporations in all attention grabbing industries just happen to have a systematic way that they "teach" or influence or youth. We, unfortunately, don't. We don't have near the cohesive and constant systematic and institutionalized way to teach or influence our youth, much less come up with an overriding influence that will counteract these "outside" influences on our youth en masse.

What I'm saying is just what HB is saying, albeit a bit different:
It's not enough to tell these brothas to just cut it out.
We have to fill their heads (and their spirits) with something else!

That, to me, is an institutional problem. The lack of them.

We don't educate (read: systematically socialize) our youth en masse, so, IMO... that we don't have even greater problems is a testament to efforts of even our loose, scattered and small scale or disjointed responses.

Our churches and civic organizations just aren't enough. And that's no swipe against them.


Given that... your post was NOT honest.
You suggest an order of events that just aren't there.

[1] I saw your points ...
[2] I actually helped to make your BIGGEST point.
[3] You said so yourself.

The sh*ts DISHONEST!

I quoted you my first post which appears atop Page 3.
Searching the rest of Page 3 then 4 and here on 5/6...
there is no post or passage where I said anything approximating "HB made my point BIGGER/BETTER."

STOP LYING!!

____________________________
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Nate, in that argument you allude to you were so wrong ...

I believe you knew you were wrong then ... but were dead set on being right.


What you believe and what you selectively recall ain't about sh*t. ANYWHERE, ANYTIME... DEMONSTRATE what you say. Don't just make claims... PROVE THEM!

It is not that hard.

But this shows just how you don't have a CLUE!


quote:
A NOTE ON SOLUTIONS:

To be frank, I don't know if that's something forums are conducive to and a lot of our personal frustrations and all the cares, concerns and "blame" this, "blame" that, BLAME US sentiments are really about what we all may perceive as our own powerlessness to effect meaningful and significant solutions.

More I can say on that but "WHAT'S YOUR SOLUTION?" is, at times, a cruel and counterproductive game we play on these forums.


Roll that around your membranes for a minute and GET CLUE!


___
Gramps get something straight.

You referenced the time "I spazzed on you" ... this was in the Cosby thread days. Remember all the ones that Blake started? "Personal Responsibilty"?

What I was referencing was BACK THEN. I thought the reference was clear given that the beef you're talking about with me was also BACK THEN.

I was not talking about anything you've said on this thread.

Like I said ... maybe you got Alzheimer's ... I'm a little concerned about you ... sck


Look, dude, I'm gone. I need to swing by the camera store.

So if you want to keep this going by manufacturing * bullshit * about me then that's on you.
You still will have some serious issues (with HONESTY) justifying this

quote:
[1] I saw your points ...
[2] I actually helped to make your BIGGEST point.
[3] You said so yourself.


Again, STOP LYING!!

Here, there or anywhere... (if you adopted my position) show where I made a post or highlight the passage where I said anything approximating "HB made my point BIGGER/BETTER."


Apparently, my reasoning must not have been that bad if you assumed my position. Must have been pretty damn good considering...


But bore me some more, if you like. Roll Eyes

quote:
What you believe and what you selectively recall ain't about sh*t. ANYWHERE, ANYTIME... DEMONSTRATE what you say. Don't just make claims... PROVE THEM!

It is not that hard.


That was for whatever you wanted to say about the Cosby threads.

What followed that was a repudiation of both the way you SPAZZED ("solutions") and the thing MBM put on you here ("solutions"). Roll that around your membranes...

Or you can keep crying saying "stop picking on me"... Whatever you want to do.

________
Ok. Done:

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Blake ... pay attention to the "other side" please.

Get off the language thing. "Personal responsibility" is not an idea. It's a right wing political slogan.

It should be axiomatic in this discussion that people naturally desire to help themselves.

But it should also be axiomatic that in order to help one's self, one requires certain necessary tools, resources, and knowledge.

So the discussion really ought to be about

1) What we should be helping ourselves towards?
2) The tools and resources required to obtain the goal.
3) The best way of disseminating those throughout the community.


Seriously, that's the very way to approach this. I asked a simple question - "The So-Called LACK Of Personal Responsibility Holds Blacks Back FROM WHAT?" - and Blake did the CON-Feed with it.

That question and your #1 are pretty much the same. And, with much thanks to you, you've voiced something I've felt all along about this "Personal Responsibility" thingy:

It's AXIOMATIC...




Proof enough? You still bored? Smile

Nate, stop being a slime. Please.


http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m...791066414#5791066414
quote:
Dude, first... GET A GRIP!!
......
I mean, seriously... if you want to play POT & KETTLE, you and I both know you or anyone else using THIS EXCUSE have NOT acknowledge, at least genuinely, the "good points" other people - i.e. their debate opponent - make.

Regardless... WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT? Why do you or anyone else need to be VALIDATED in a debate?

If your points are "GOOD" you should be able to make them and, in making them, not be worried about whether someone else accepts, acknowledge or concede to what you perceive to be your "good" points.

I've debated MBM and, as I said, I was very tempted... By that I mean, he was cool with you cursing him up and down... And I'll leave it at that.

And, yes, I got plenty of nerve... That's why I got banned... And folks used to blame TONE LOCO on me. LOL!

PS: I already commented on the subject but YOU did not acknowledge it/me. YOU missed it. Like KWELI, all the atention you want for your "good" points, you don't reciprocate. That's just one bit of proof.

When you spazzed with me before.... NOT A POINT I MADE did you acknowledge.


So........ NEXT!!!!


That's my post which you followed with:


quote:
In my book, ignoring the good points of your opponent is a form of dishonesty.

My point was not about being "validated"...

It's called good debate form. In the academic sense. Not in the "spinning" political sense (which I think is little better than "car salesmanship").

So my issue was about showing real interest in the truth.

If you're really interested in "truth" .. rather than merely being "right" ... then you learn how to listen to others.


PS: Not only did I see your points ...

I actually helped to make your BIGGEST point.

You said so yourself.

Remember?


So you can STOP LYING about so-called "clear" references.
So now you're going to get into my head and tell me what my reference was to?

It's simple. this was a communication gap. I was talking about one thing. And you another.

Pursuing this thing and accusing me of lying is a sign of psychosis.

There's no possible way you can reliably assertain the the intent of my reference contrary to what I've indicated. Unless you're a mindreader. To me it was "clear". Apparently it wasn't clear to you.

Simple as that.

Now behave like you're in your right mind please. Smile
quote:
You still bored?


TOTALLY!

That doesn't do what you claimed. Plain and simple.

quote:
Not only did I see your points ...

I actually helped to make your BIGGEST point.

You said so yourself.


Me stating that "you've voiced something I've felt all along about this "Personal Responsibility" thingy" says nothing about what my "BIGGEST" point was or me saying something that approximates, "HB you helped make my point [BIGGER/BETTER]."


No, you will have to dig deeper. The question then was: WHAT WAS "MY" POINT?

You've failed to answer that and, in so doing, have totally failed to support your claim. PERIOD!

Neither have you shown how my reasoning was "muddy" whatchacallit. Hmmm... and you hardly took back your jumping to conclusions that typified what you did before you changed to my position.

Again, my point must have been pretty damn good if your half-cocked assumptions (CON-Feed?) where clearly unfounded and unsustainable.

I don't recall getting any acknowledgement from you... From EP, I did.

-------
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

So now you're going to get into my head and tell me what my reference was to?

It's simple. This was a communication gap. I was talking about one thing. And you another.

Pursuing this thing and accusing me of "lying" is a sign of psychosis.

There's no possible way you can reliably ascertain the intent of my reference contrary to what I've indicated. Unless you're a mindreader. To me, it was "clear". Apparently, it wasn't clear to you.

Simple as that.

Now behave like you're in your right mind please. Smile
quote:
  • SELF-LOATHING is a growth industry, whether folks get paid or not.

    There is a tradition of BLACK SELF-LOATHING and folks make it like that "old tyme religion"... It's good enough for them (without examining the rhetoric or the applicability of and the original reason for the rhetoric).

  • That INDIVIDUALISM is a product of their(our) AMERICANISM.

    So it's ingrained deep, for a lot of folk. They've learned and had it reinforced w/in and outside of the Black Community.

    Oh and it's part of that Ch-ur-ch tradition, too. It's AMEN!! Preacher when the fingers aren't pointed at you.

    It goes just that deep. Part of the fabric Black AMERICAN(ized) Culture.
  • Contempt for the poor = American.
  • Disappointed to the point of disgust, disdain and the type of disillusionment (trying to avoid it) that leads to ready scapegoating and simplistic analysis.


  • That typifies the overriding point I've made in the Cosby threads (along with one other one I can find, if you like). That point... those points aren't exactly made BIGGER or better by the point you made WHICH I ACKNOWLEDGE - i.e. did not ignore.

    So much for your selective memory and untenable claim...

    quote:
    My issue is with people who wage a "debate"...
    by essentially ignoring the good points that other people make.

    And that includes YOU ...


    Hmmm... Now, please link up to where you made a point of admonishing BLAKE, e.g., about his "ignoring" of my "pretty damn good" points.

    I mean, your policing/monitoring was objective? Wasn't it?


    _____________________
    quote:
    Originally posted by HonestBrother:
    quote:
    Originally posted by HonestBrother:

    So now you're going to get into my head and tell me what my reference was to?

    It's simple. This was a communication gap. I was talking about one thing. And you another.

    Pursuing this thing and accusing me of "lying" is a sign of psychosis.

    There's no possible way you can reliably ascertain the intent of my reference contrary to what I've indicated. Unless you're a mindreader. To me, it was "clear". Apparently, it wasn't clear to you.

    Simple as that.

    Now behave like you're in your right mind please. Smile


    munch
    I can requote, too!

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    quote:
    Originally posted by HonestBrother:
    You're about as much in rant mode as Nmag was ...


    HB, you really need to leave my name out your mouth. Really... Seriously... Because here it is, you're actually in an exchange with Blake yourself but you're not talking about his "good heart" and all that other stuff. You're encountering the very thing I did some time ago.

    I could go on but I'll just let you "hear" Blake's side and stand back as you clear enough room so this brother can be heard.


    Signed The Old Man (lol) Wink



    And...

    quote:
    So will you guys quit fanning the flames with your sideline commentary?

    If you want to comment, then address the issues. NOT me.
    quote:
    PS: I already commented on the subject but YOU did not acknowledge it/me. YOU missed it.


    Don't know why that was so hard for you to follow. ACKNOWLEDGE ME! Big Grin


    _____________________
    quote:
    Originally posted by HonestBrother:

    DD, this tread was never "derailed". I pointed out in the very beginning that hip hop itself was born with no corporate backing whatsoever.

    Namely, if MBM's funadamental point is correct, about the business creating the culture, then hip hop NEVER would have come into being at all.


    Pasted from the original post:

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    Here's my contention: while Hip Hop comes from African Americans and, at some levels, "celebrates" an aspect of African American culture, it has really evolved to be a music form that is driven by whites and that - without us even knowing it – has us parodying white stereotypes of us.


    Key word = "evolved". I never ever said or inferred that Hip Hop was created by whites or corporate America. What I did say was that it was "bastardized and processed" by white America – as had occurred with other music forms.

    For example:

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    I don't think that Hip Hop evolved organically. I think white folks saw the value in us clowning ourselves with violence and mysogeny etc. They saw the opportunity to sell that to the primary, white male teen conmsumer, and make billions of dollars. They could care less that there are extremely damaging social costs to the African American community for that behavior. It's about them making chedda.


    Moreover:

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    Perhaps - but Hip Hop didn't explode until it was bastardized and shaped into what corporate America wanted it to be.

    Blues rose up from old slave songs etc. White folks saw something interesting in it and then stole it and bastardized it to their ends and rock & roll was created. Blues was legit and pure when it was stolen and transformed into something completely different.

    The same happened with HH except that when it was morphed, we still were the ones performing.


    Furthermore, I clarified with this:

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    My piece clearly differentiates between the origin of this - as any - music form and what happens after the moneyed interests take over. By the word "evolution" I refer to how it has changed over time. Clearly the Sugar Hill Gang didn't write Tip Drill. 15


    quote:
    If he's correct we wouldn't even be having this discussion because hip hop never would have gotten off the ground.


    One could easily argue that what "got it off the ground" - that brought it to the levels of commercial success globally that it enjoys now - is, in fact, white corporate America investing the billions of dollars that is has to market and sell it. What else gave it the commercial presence that it has?

    quote:
    He keeps dancing around (and avoiding the very powerful ramifications of) this fundamental observation with his wack azz (and terribly vague) retort about business coming along and corrupting art. Which basically neutralizes the observation by ignoring it.


    Ignoring it? How about articulating the art form's history. If you think that Hip Hop is still run by the companies and people who ran it when it sprung forth in NYC – then you are massively deluded. If you think that 75% of all music sales are still a product of some organic protest music, then you are just dead wrong. If you think that corporate America just stands back and lets some young black kids do their thing with rap music then you have a fundamental lack of understanding about how the world works.
    Last edited {1}
    quote:
    Originally posted by ddouble:

    I still maintain that if we say that 50, Lil Jon or whoever is hot right now is wack, their record sales will plummet.


    I agree.

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    At some point, as a community, we've got to recognize the game that's being played (on us) and choose another path. Sure it will be horribly difficult to ask young folks who dream of stardom and riches to restrain themselves, but our progress has no choice but to be retarded if we remain hostage to images and lyrics which are self-destructive and counter productive. Our challenge, then, is to create the social context – the inertia within the African American community - that balances against the current incentives to clown ourselves. In the same way that we currently think about those in our community who we deem "sell outs" for whatever reason, we've got to start questioning Hip Hop artists who, however much they think they are "keeping it real" are also doing damage to our community by executing white America's playbook for us.
    You just dodged it again ... Roll Eyes

    The point: If the business has all the power you say it does to shape culture then hip hop would not exist at all.

    Therefore we need to look at other forces which are not only creating the music but more importantly from a cultural perspective creating and sustaining the demand for it among black people.

    The history of hip hop - indeed the history of black music - is that our tastes (i.e., the demand) haven't been dictated by the market. We always seem one step beyond it in fact.

    It's very simple.

    But aiight ... you win ... giveup
    quote:
    Originally posted by HonestBrother:

    You just dodged it again ... Roll Eyes

    The point: If the business has all the power you say it does to shape culture then hip hop would not exist at all.


    Please show me where I said that.

    What I have consistently said is that white folks put their money behind what they thought could make them even more money. That particular aspect of Hip Hop just so happened to be the lyrics and style and images that damage us as a community.

    Since the money was behind that aspect of the culture - that aspect is what has developed - itself chasing after those white dollars.

    PERIOD.

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