I read a recent interchange between a liberal and conservative member of our community. In it the liberal member talked about racism in America. The conservative person suggested that the liberal was "blaming" things on racism.

I have an honest question for my conservative friends here. Aside from how you choose to approach public policy issues, do you think that there is racism in America? Do you believe that all people have equal access to opportunity in this country?

Let me know your thoughts. smile

Onward and Upward!

© MBM

Original Post
Be prepared to confront some MAJOR bs. I can think of at least one member of this board (I won't reveal any names) that thought the Reconstruction was beneficial for blacks. They will hail Reagan years as some kind of halcyon days, even though under the auspices of Clarence Thomas civil rights enforcement has been severely curtailed, despite the heavy persistence of discriminatory practices. Even today the EEOC has the enforcement power to file just over 400 discrimination cases, even in the face of over 80,000 claims recieved last year.

To conservatives, if there is any racism in this country, it is entirely localized within the Democratic Party, by virtue of Senators Hollings and Byrd being Democrats. No mention of any conservative politician being racist from these guys, nosirree.

I'm not saying that they will completely deny the existence of racism. If you egg them on enough, they'll eventually admit a few isolated cases. But in the face of the EFFECTS of racism, they have their heads in the sand. They'll say that whites have more wealth PER CAPITA than blacks simply because they are the majority, I'm serious, I'm not making it up.

That's just my opinion, but it reflects my experience discussing issues with conservatives over the years.

"colorblindness" is still a blindness.
Very good topic MBM...

There is one member of this board that believes that there is a racist living under every rock and behind every tree that does not lean towards the left... This same person also feels that Black folks cannot be successful in the U.S. because of White Supremacist attitudes... Also this individual believes that the failure of every Black individual is due to the intervention of some White devil... He also believes that anyone that disagrees with his ideas is either ignorant, uninformed or a racist... Although this individual is very intelligent, his hate and rage against White folks has placed blinders on his mind...

NOW...

MBM: "I have an honest question for my conservative friends here. Aside from how you choose to approach public policy issues, (1) do you think that there is racism in America? (2) Do you believe that all people have equal access to opportunity in this country?"

1 & 2- You ask two separate questions... But they appear to me as the two sides of the same coin...

Of course racism still exist in America... I am not going to try and "pigeon hole" it as belonging to one political party or another... But is it the "standard of the day" as it use to be 40 or 50 years ago???... No!!!... Many argue that "we" (Blacks) are not where "you" (Whites) are... Well, as a general population, it took Whites 226 years to get "here"!!!... Black folks have only had about 30 to 40 years to "get here"... I know that sounds bad... But, in general, it's true... The "years" differential is because of racial policies and attitudes of the previous years... And YES... In my home town Black folks have a much greater and equal opportunity for success...

Contrary to most folks opinions on "race" oriented forums... I believe that, in the near future, racism will remembered as an event of past history... The next hurdle will then come from those few, on both sides, that won't allow the past to die and be buried, due mainly for their own selfish reasons...

BUT... As Dylan said: "The Times They Are A Changin"!!!...

.

------------------------------
The Liberal/Progressive mantra: "We are the champions of diversity and opinions... We tolerate all beliefs, all religions, and all customs.......... Unless they disagree with ours!"
although I am not a 'conservative' member of aa.org, I will step in and say a few words.

quote:
mbm: do you think that there is racism in America?
absolutely...and it's not just across races, but within as well.

quote:
mbm: Do you believe that all people have equal access to opportunity in this country?

no, i believe money talks, and brings forth opportunity. if you know how to gain access to the system you can make it work for you, but those that gain meaningful opportunities as a result of government systems are few and far between.

quote:
whoopie: Contrary to most folks opinions on "race" oriented forums... I believe that, in the near future, racism will remembered as an event of past history...
i had this discussion a few days ago with a friend--and their view was the same as your's whoopie..based on the fact that as we continue to mix-races--there will soon be ONE race, and thus the end of racism. but i have to disagree. Racism will NEVER go away, because it is a product of control and superiority. There will probably eventually be ONE race--but differences we carry as individuals will be enough to divide into race-types and for one set of people to command themselves as superior.

those who stand for nothing fall for anything
Yes, of course there exists racism on every corner of the earth. We too have our own share of racists, using the term literally. But to think that its conservatives who have some monopoly on racism is the foolish view. And we do tend to blame many of our weaknesses or failures on 'racism' as a convenient scapegoat, I don't think thats deniable.
The only difference therein between democrats and republicans is that republicans are more geared towards self-sufficiency, while democrats favor a 'socialistic' view of government. Some of the worst tragedies on earth have been perpatrated by those who claimed to have 'good intentions', which describes some of the things that democrats have thrust on us. Affirm action for example does NOT provide for 'EQUAL' opportunity. And 'equal' opportunity should NOT be the goal. What we should strive for in this nation is FREEDOM of opportunity!

Don't be fooled folks. Republicans have no monopoly on racism, nor is racism our number one problem in this society today.
Hey, great to have you here. I hope you'll come to be a 'regular' in these discussions.

I don't think anyone is accusing conservatives of anything. I think as much as anywhere, we have a balanced dialogue between conservatives and liberals where we're really trying to get underneath the rhetoric and really better understand each other.

Can you say more about "freedom of opportunity"? What does this mean to you? How does it differentiate from "equal opportunity"?

Onward and Upward!
Of course racism still exists here in american, but like dwill says it's not just limited to white people. I hear and see people all the time compared conservatism to racism the problem is how do you explain the racist attitudes that liberals have. Republicans and conservatives in general for some reason just don't know how to get the message of smaller government and self-dependence out to blacks. The ideas of smaller government, reduced taxes and welfare reform are not racist ideas.
The uniqueness of our society is that America can be anything you want it to be.

Like my good friend whoop says, if your only reason for living is to wake up every morning searching under every rock for racism....Yes, you will find plenty.

Even if you don't find racism all the time, you can invent racism where none existed (Towanna Brawley). How Sharpton even finds a audience after that fiasco amazes me. I guess P.T. Barnum was right.

However if you choose see nothing but untouched opportunity to advance your lot in life......

If you choose to go after your goals in spite of all the negativity that tells you blacks will never be equal to whites, and other loads of manure handed out by ultra-liberals......

If you strive to be the very best you ( Mr. MBM, Nykkii, whoop, Jazzdog, sugar, norland, dwill ) can be, the only limitations placed on those efforts are the ones you create!!

Thank you.

big grin big grin big grin
I would disagree with your assessment regarding 'us' connecting republicans somehow to 'racism' while democrats get the free ride. I think you know the image that we've created regarding republicans, and it always has a 'racism' angle, as outrageous as they may be in reality.

As for 'freedom of opportunity', this is worlds apart from a concept of 'equal' opportunity. Dragging folks down to some 'equal' level is a socialist goal, never one of a free people. People are NOT equal, each of us is an individual with our own gifts and talents, some more gifted or talented than others.

FREEDOM of opportunity requires NOT HOLDING BACK the best and the brightest amongst us from achieving and pursuing their goals. For example, race-based, or the so-called 'affirmative' action quotas tend to 'leave out' many fully 'qualified' and 'capable' people in leu of favoring a person's 'racial' or 'ethnic' makeup. This guarantees that something other than 'the best or most capable' will be shown favoritism. This guarantees mediocrity. THAT should NOT be a goal of anyone.

If the best and brightest amongst us are not nurtured, and not permitted to pursue opportunity based on their 'efforts', not a racial characteristic, then they are not being afforded FREEDOM of opportunity. In other words, its WRONG for those at the top, the best and brightest, or smartest or most capable, to be PULLED DOWN to some level of 'equality', thereby robbing them of the freedom to pursue or achieve their goals and dreams to the "best of their abilities".

It would be a much better goal to raise everyone UP to higher standards, rather than seeking some lower level of 'equality'. I choose to have the FREEDOM to do what I want, and that includes a FREEDOM to seek opportunity wherever I find it.
First, thanks for your post. I really appreciate the thoughtful dialogue.

quote:

Originally posted by dwill:

I would disagree with your assessment regarding 'us' connecting republicans somehow to 'racism' while democrats get the free ride.


I've made no such assessment here (or anywhere I think). The premise of the thread was to better understand the characterization of liberals (coming from conservatives) as people who "blame" things on racism. I don't understand that charge and am seeking to.


quote:
In other words, its WRONG for those at the top, the best and brightest, or smartest or most capable, to be PULLED DOWN to some level of 'equality', thereby robbing them of the freedom to pursue or achieve their goals and dreams to the "best of their abilities".


I agree that we should never marginalize anyone in society. That said, those at the top are where they are largely on the backs, and at the expense, of those at the bottom. In particular, African Americans "invested" hundreds of years of free labor into this country to help bring our standard of living to where it is today. One could argue that white America has unfairly gotten a "free ride" from this. My sense of affirmative action programs is not that they are an effort to randomly pull people up from the bottom, but that they are designed to redress past wrongs.



quote:
It would be a much better goal to raise everyone UP to higher standards, rather than seeking some lower level of 'equality'. I choose to have the FREEDOM to do what I want, and that includes a FREEDOM to seek opportunity wherever I find it.


Say more about this. Where do you see anyone being dragged down to a "lower level of equality"? And to be clear, I don't think anyone is ever suggesting that we all earn the same - without regard to our contributions to society. I believe that everyone should have equal access to opportunities though. There should be no glass ceilings for anyone. In fact, equal opportunity is exactly what you're talking about: the ability to pursue opportunity wherever and however you may find it.

Onward and Upward!
Part of a previous post on the same topic:

As so far as democrats and republicans....remember TODAY'S conservatives who you align yourself with are the racist southern dixiecrats who left the democratic party as a way of protesting the Civil rights Act of 1964.....Maybe like Condi as W calls her, you may also feel like it was not necessary.... But some of your fellow conservatives of today were members of the white citizens councils of Mississippi, Bob Jones university all the way into the 90's...and held filibusters against the civil rights and anti-lynching laws...and tried to stop the voting rights act from passing....unless there was some overnight meeting where they changed their minds towards blacks.... I see them as the same segregationists who kept your parents and mine on the back of the bus and going through the back door...so before you call me a racist, look at your so-called allies and ask them about their views.... Ask them if you can marry one of their daughters....that is the new litmus test question in this day and age...not if they have any black friends...because some blacks will do and say anything for the acceptance from whites that will never occur.........and you will see who the real racists are......all i worry about is equality....i give less then a damn about popularity or acceptance.....from anyone...white or black. Unlike those allies of yours, I'm trying to advance in amerikkka without stopping the progress of anyone else...but I will pull out some research later....and let you really see what conservatives are up to in terms of black people behind closed doors....and if you can hold me to task without equally holding them accountable...then we are still in that same mode we were in as slaves....while some were trying to run away....others were talking about how good we had it......I was definitely a runaway..........and hopefully I will remain one. Take care..........................

Also, I have a graphic that shows the improvements and growth of the black middle class and educational attainment due to AA. I would love to see a conservative try to quantify any policy outcomes in terms of black benefits...and to hell with supporting an issue. I'm talking about a known conservative sponsoring a piece of legislation that we could deem as beneficial to blacks........if you kill something you should also replace it to ensure fair hiring an admissions....unless you think that will happen automatically. I eagerly await that one.........and as so far as racial tension...it has always and will always be there...racism is based on the silly notion of supremacy....and when blacks rise economically..it will always make someone irritated...i know...i have had too many cars bashed in when i leave them in certain areas....and i have experienced road rage you wouldn't believe......because i drive nice cars...and do not fit the profile of a brother who obtained them through shady means.......trust me.....i have experienced the DWB thing...and all the cops ever ask...is what do you do for a living, which is code for what is your black _ss doing in a car like this? They try to see if a connection is there....now what does my occupation have to do with my driving style....you tell me.....in case you think racial profiling is a necessity also.....and if you do......where were your crys to profile crew-cut white guys when tim blew up the Oklahoma building? There is a double standard in everything in america....but the conservatives seem to deny this...and also operate under the premise that racist whites will be color-blind if laws protecting blacks from discrimination are removed....i mentioned the drops in black contracting and college admissions that happened as a result of an AA repeal. I guess to black conservatives...that is what is supposed to happen. Well keep in mind how after reconstruction blacks flourished for a breif minute until the supreme court put the Jim Crow laws into place.....the trends were reversed once.....what makes black conservatives think that it is not possible again? It is possible.....very possible.......but go ahead and affiliate yourselves with the enemies of your parents.......you get what you ask for
Well MBM, you did 'name' the topic Conservatives and Racism, did you not? Was that the now common 'guilt by word proximity'?

Anyways, I think it also a 'myth' that this country was somehow 'built' by the labor of our ancestors. The slave plantations that profited were practically exclusive to the Southern US, and the South was amongst the "poorest" of all the areas in the US. The dirty little secret is that slavery was NOT an economic success, nor does slavery build great wealth in a society. If slavery was such an economic boon and 'built' this country as we are so fond of proclaiming, how is it that it is the South that has always been the poorest sector of this country?

I know the 'words' sound great, but the reality is something else altogether.

As far as being 'dragged down', I think the public school system is a fine example, though only one of many, of everyone being 'dumbed' to an 'equally wretched' level of dumbness. And in our community, I'm sure you've heard the expression 'Acting White' when kids excel. Need I say more?
quote:
originally posted by shy1....
how have democratic or liberal policies personally hurt you?


Taxes! A liberals stock-in-trade. Since you said "personally", here in the Peoples Republic of Maryland, the state and local government (Baltimore city) taxes virtually everything in sight. We are taxed on cigarettes, snacks, beverages, clothes, gas...et, and these taxes, once instituted, never get repealed. Hell, they increase yearly!

Now get this. Just 35 miles north is the state of Delaware. Delaware has NO sales tax. Maryland is upset that its residents travel into Delaware to shop to avoid the hefty state sales taxes. Maryland is also peeved at goods arriving in the state from elsewhere purchased with no tax.

What does Maryland do? The two main highways that run into Delaware have toll bridges set up to cross the Susquehanna river leaving the state. Maryland recently raised the toll from $2.00 to $4.00 both ways. To get into Delaware, the Delaware toll is $2.00 one way.

So you cross two toll booths to get into Delaware and return to Maryland at a cost of $8.00!! Hey, if Marylanders want to spend money in Delaware, the state of Maryland wants a piece of the action!!

big grin big grin big grin

Add Reply

Likes (0)
Post
×
×
×
×