We've tried this before, but let's keep at it till we get it right! smile Let's discuss what ties us to our beliefs, why we believe what we do, as well as our personal perceptions of conservative and liberal ideology.

LET'S NOT DEBATE POLITICS HERE. LET'S DISCUSS WHY WE BELIEVE WHAT WE DO AND WHAT WE'VE COME TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT CONS. AND LIBS.

POSTS NOT FITTING THIS GROUNDRULE WILL BE MOVED OR DELETED.

I'll copy JuneBug's post from another thread to get us started.


Onward and Upward!

[This message was edited by MBM on October 06, 2002 at 02:24 PM.]

© MBM

Original Post
JuneBug posted the following on another thread. Let's use this as a basis for an analytical discussion about black conservatism and liberalism.

quote:
Originally posted by JuneBug:
BB said:

quote:
Right here in my hometown of Baltimore City, the Republican candidate for governor showed up at Morgan University, a virtually all-black college with his running mate, a black republican, for a debate with the Democrat candidate.

Mr. Steele, the black republican candidate, was soundly booed by the pro-Democrat audience, and Oreo cookies were passed out among the crowd. I will spare you the other expletives shouted from the Morgan mob.




1. Black Conservatives are not trying to change Black thought but appear to be USED by White Conservatives to proclaim White Conservative ideas in Black Face.

2. It appears that each and every idea a Black Conservative have were adopted from White Conservatives.

3. Black conservatives do not involve themselves with Black oriented organizations. Such as the NAACP and the Urban League. If Black Conservatives want to be the catalyst for change in the Black Community, it must be done from inside the Black community. If you are not willing to rub elbows with those in the Black Community then Black Conservative will never make any impact on Black thought. And viewed with disgrace by Black people in general.

4. Black Conservatives rarely speak out in the interest of Black people.

5. White Conservatives take Black Conservatives for granted i.e. JC Watts. Republicans did not even take care of the ONLY BLACK REPUBLICAN IN WASHINGTON, that was shameful and personally it hurt my trust in Republicans in general. Blacks see no advantage being a Black Conservative.

6. Black Conservatives appear of not doing much in the Black community.

7. In general Black Conservatives never Blame White America for the horrible Wrongs done to Black America, they appear to be apologist for them or silent. There are examples on this board, when I laid out my argument regarding Affirmative Action not one self-proclaimed Black Conservative had a thing to say. Black Conservatives do not give credit to Black issues when they are righteous but remain silent. However, Colin Powell stood before White Conservatives at a Republican Convention and told them like it was and got booed by White Republicans. I was so proud of Colin that I went out and bought his book. smile
BB I did see your topic about how the Black Farmer was and is being screwed, I who have black family who are still in the farming business appreciated it and was surprised that you had any interest in that subject. That was a rarity indeed from one who claim to be Black a Conservative.

8. Black Conservatives appear to be White apologists.

9. When racist shiyt hits the fan against Black people Black Conservatives are nowhere to be found.

10. Black conservatives need to get that word conservative off the label because to most black people the word conservative have racist connotations. Conservative means to leave things as they were, black people want CHANGE.

11. Black Conservatives rarely take white people to the woodshed when they say stupid things but remain silent but will jump all over black people over trivial matters.

12. Black Conservative appear to be empty of ideas that focus on helping the Black community.

13. Black Conservatives appear to be ashamed of being Black.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on October 03, 2002 at 09:00 AM.]



Onward and Upward!
JuneBug, that was deep, and within those problems you listed are the solutions. It would be interesting to know if there are any prominent black conservatives who don't fit that mold you outlined (besides Powell), or perhaps conservatives in liberal clothing.

So,
quote:
...why we believe what we do, as well as our personal perceptions of conservative and liberal ideology.


There was a columnist a month back who said, about the liberal/conservative divide, that "Liberals think conservatives are evil, conservatives think liberals are stupid."

I used to think the first part went without saying, I don't now. And I've had several experiences with the latter. And I've seen some of both beliefs played out on the this board and elsewhere, too. I can't stand with either ideology though. For the record, I don't believe anymore that liberal=non racist, conservative=racist, either.

Every time the issue of blacks and conservatives comes up, everyone says (usually Republicans) that we're conservatives anyway, but if more of us were, wouldn't we find more Powell-type conservatives? Or are the conservatives of the other type just being contrary?
white liberals and white conservatives. I think blacks would do well not to be pigeonholed as either. without getting too political, you may have noted during televised debates that there were hardly any differences between liberal and conservative platforms. They all claim to want the same thing.
I believe that the individual is supremely important, and that there are certain natural rights (and responsibilities) that we automatically have by virtue of our humanity.
Political and legal policy should be to support and affirm those rights and responsibilities.

Whether you're a liberal, a conservative, or whatever, depends on the role you think government (through its policies and laws) should have, on a federal, state, or local level, concerning economic, social/justice, social/moral, and defense/military issues.

Somebody once broke it down like this:

COnservatives:
Small federal vs. larger local government.
Small role re: economy; small role re: social justice, large role re: social morality, and large role re: defense and foreign affairs.

Liberals: the exact opposite. There are others, like libertarians, fascists, and theocrats, who fall differently on these issues, but the point is, they always seem to have an absolute view re: government's role on these specific areas.

But under my view, these factors are not really the issue. To me, it should be that government should have an active role where necessary to protect natural rights and responsibilities, and a small role where an active role is unnecessary. Period. Usually, that will mean a small effort in economic issues and a (fairly) large effort in defense. The other two areas depend on the specific situation. More power should go to the states normally, since the individual has more influence over more local governments, but when local governments enforced Jim Crow, well the feds have to step in. So, the result is that I'm clearly undefinable under the liberal-conservative scheme. To borrow from Tiger Woods, I must be a Conlibarian.
Lea, I've always thought blacks are viewed as liberal on racial & social/justice issues, but as conservative on social/moral issues, by virtue of the heavy role religion plays in the black community.
smile

quote:
As for Junebug's statement Justifying errant behavior, I'll address that in Mr. MBM's new thread. Junebug is a friend that has known me online for a while and I respect his opinions. I will not bash or belittle his remarks. Sorry to disapoint Icon and others, but I stand by my white friends just like I do my black friends.


But my comments are honest, not from an agenda.

Actually I wish Blacks were more politically dervesified because as it is now, the Donkeys take the Black Vote for granted and the Elephants seem to like putting Black Republicans up for show but do nothing substantive for Black concerns.

For a while I thought the Black Conservative was going to start wielding a little power within the Republican Party but it seems now that the Republicans are looking to Hispanics to diversify their Party. Recently Bush talked at a Hispanic Convention, heck when was it the last time a Republican address a group of Black folks, I can't remember but it's been awhile. It's like the Republican Party has given up on Black people.

I think Conservatives have ideas that can work for everyone but it's the Black Conservative who do not proclaim those ideas to Black people that may be appealing and actually do some good.

I'm actually a little disappointed in how out of touch the Black Conservative appears to the masses of Black America.

Instead of proclaiming the Party line, I think Black Conservatives should demand that the Republican Party focus on Black concerns with MONEY and PLATFORM and Black Conservatives advocate ideas that are within party philosophy that can and will elevate Black people.

Black Conservatives have got to be Jealous for Black People, that in a nutshell seems to be missing!

[This message was edited by JuneBug on October 03, 2002 at 06:53 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by MBM....

LET'S NOT DEBATE POLITICS HERE. LET'S DISCUSS WHY WE BELIEVE WHAT WE DO AND WHAT WE'VE COME TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT CONS. AND LIBS.

POSTS NOT FITTING THIS GROUNDRULE WILL BE MOVED OR DELETED.


Great!! Basically we are to discuss why we have our political views without debating politics. Isn't that like jumping in the pool without getting wet??

And now, Mr. MBM, you post Junebug's opinion on black conservatives, but anyone who refutes this will be deleted?? Isn't that like entering the boxing ring with your hands tied??

You are putting shackles on conservative responses and letting non-conservatives speak freely. Junebug's opinion proves you cannot discuss this issue without debating politics. What's the point in participating if I have to worry about being deleted??

Sorry, I'm not playing the game.



.....Bankins
Don't bow out, give it a try. smile

Are you Jealous for Black People?

quote:
but anyone who refutes this will be deleted


That is the point of why I created that post, I want you to address it, anyone that is Black and Conservative.

It was provocative for the purpose of encouraging Black Conservatives to show that you are Jealous for Black People.
I know you are not picking a fight but writing from your heart, and I respect that.

Maybe I'm overreacting to Mr. MBM's rules, so I'll just say this. If i'm deleted, I'm deleted.


Why I am conservative

I've said this before. Conservatism works every time it's tried. I give you the Reagan years as proof, and I have documentation to back it up. The Carter years were a failure. That is a time I never, ever, want to live through again.

I don't know how to say anymore without getting into politics.....

.....Bankins
I think MBM just don't want this to become a slug fest but an honest airing on this subject.

This is a political issue as far as I'm concern.

I want Black Conservatives to be successful in elevating the Black Community in which Black Conservatives came from.
Hello, B. Bankins,

I think MBM was saying, why did we choose our ideology, or what you find attractive about it, not that you can't point out what you disagree with regarding JuneBug's list. I might be wrong, but I don't think he meant "You can't argue there's anything good about conservatives."

Vox, Negrospiritual, I was in a hurry to leave work, or I would have explained that we're regarded as conservatives to Republicans who wish to sway us. This is usually said in the context of discussing "the leash" the Dems have on us: "How can they like Democrats when they're conservative!" When it comes time to say what's wrong with us, then we're liberals.

But, I do think Vox has a point on when we're lib, and when we're conservative. I want the government to take care of the things I need, but can't handle myself, such as defense, the the FDA, the USDA, that kind of thing. I don't want them legislating on things that aren't really their business. The government has better things to do than to worry about our weight, if we're married, if we're firing up a joint, whatever.

JuneBug, I agree with you: we need to diversify our politics. A lot of what you outlined in your post seems more like a perception issue, as opposed to actual disagreement or hostility. If that is so, the "problem" with black conservatives might not be such a problem with better PR. Or some such.
conservatism seems to also go hand in hand with

support of death penalty
restricting access to abortion
abandonment of public school systems
no affirmative action
guns for everyone
heavy defense spending
support of jobs moving outside the country
religiosity


However "welfare reform" has been the bastard child of a liberal/conservative coupling...
quote:
conservatism seems to also go hand in hand with

support of death penalty
restricting access to abortion
abandonment of public school systems
no affirmative action
guns for everyone
heavy defense spending
support of jobs moving outside the country
religiosity


That list is the reason I can't get with either party. I agree with the conservatives on defense, disagree on abortion, support the death penalty in general terms, and I'm suspicious of and nervous about the religious right.

The conservatives might have a point when they say "An armed society is a polite society," and I think I know what they're up to when they support businesses moving overseas. I think they're mainly in favor of businesses doing what it takes to stay in business, and if hiring people overseas helps, they're for it. This is assuming conservatives don't see wealth as fixed, but rather dynamic, though. If they believe that people who may be unemployed if a factory moves to Bangladesh can just find another job, or start a new business, then in that sense, their unemployment is not a downside, and supporting the move looks reasonable.

In keeping in the spirit of the rules, it might be good to know why liberals are more likely to disagree with Negrospiritual's list, and why conservatives are more likely to agree with this list, because not all of it can be summed up as small vs. large government.

Although--even in the debate about government size, why do liberals like it large, and conservatives like it small? Saying the conservatives are into self-reliance doesn't quite ring true to me, it implies liberals prefer dependence.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MBM:
LET'S NOT DEBATE POLITICS HERE. LET'S DISCUSS WHY WE BELIEVE WHAT WE DO AND WHAT WE'VE COME TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT CONS. AND LIBS.

POSTS NOT FITTING THIS GROUNDRULE WILL BE MOVED OR DELETED.
QUOTE]

The point of this thread is to discuss why we believe what we believe.

Good: I am a Lilliputian because their sense of political activism squares with my personal value system and ethics.

Bad: Fuck Lilliputians. They're dumb, ugly, and smell.

We already have enough of the latter here. I'd love to get inside your heads to understand why you think and feel what you do about politics.

K?


P.S. Maybe I should have said limit your comments to what you believe about your ideology without commenting on opposing beliefs. i.e. Don't say I'm a blue because I hate purples. Say I'm a blue because x,y,z. Make sense? confused


P.P.S. This thread is all about understanding and growth. No one will be attacked for their views. You may be challenged, but never attacked.


P.P.P.S. No one has ever, or will ever, be censored in any way or have their posts deleted, or be banned here because of their point of view. I hope that's clear by now.



Onward and Upward!

[This message was edited by MBM on October 04, 2002 at 08:59 AM.]
In the spirit of the guidelines laid down by MBM here goes:

This is what I believe in:

the DEATH PENALTY is an appropriate form of punishment for those in our society who see their fellow human beings as not people but cattle to be slaughtered at their whim. Locking them up in prison to be cared for their rest of their lives is an insult to the living and the surviors.

GUNS FOR EVERYONE is not such a bad idea as the criminal element in this country already exercise that right. I believe that until you successfully remove guns from the hands of the criminals then every law abiding person should be able to have a gun.

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION while necessary should only to be used to ensure that the playing field is level not tilted in the other direction. Using it to ensure quotas that might include the least qualified is just as wrong as denying qualified applicants a chance because of color.

HEAVY DEFENSE SPENDING is necessary to ensure our way of life, that doesn't mean I believe that we should be the worlds policeman. What it means is protecting our interest here at home and abroad, and when I say abroad, I mean things that are clearly in our best interest. Bosnia is not in our best interest the middle east until we are completely dependent free of their oil is in our best interest.

VOUCHERS are good in that school systems that are completely broken allows those parents who normally could not send their kids to private schools the opportunity to do so, since most of the schools having these problems are in lower income areas. So what if most of them are religious based, its not a endorsement of religion just a acknowledgement that maybe religious based schools are doing a better job of teaching kids.

ABORTION is about choice. It kills me that people complain about the amount of government in our lives and then want the government to get involve in what is a personnal choice. I used to be aganist abortion until I heard some idiot saying that abortion shouldn't even be allowed in cases of rape and incest. Now there is a compassionate person, not only does the women suffer the rape the first time but then you MAKE her give birth to the result of that crime so that for the rest of her life everytime she looks at the child the wounds are opened again. Just brilliant.

WELFARE REFORM is absolutely needed. Welfare started out as a program to help people in need get through the tough time until they got back on their feet. It was not meant to be a life long program that was then passed onto the next generation. It should be a program so painful that those WHO CAN WORK go out and actually get a job.

[This message was edited by jazzdog on October 04, 2002 at 10:12 AM.]
BB, MBM's limitation on this thread, to me, sounds like he's asking us to be philosophical rather than political. Why you think a certain political way sounds like a philosophical question to me, which should make it much easier to talk about this without getting "political."

BB: you're a conservative because conservatism has worked whenever its been tried. That's a fascinating point. I have to chew on it a bit.
quote:
Originally posted by B Bankins:
Conservatism works every time it's tried.


I'm going to try to follow within MBM's guidelines to the extent that I understand them. I'm not sure whether this post will fit or not. No doubt I'll endeavor to be more respectful.


My big question back on this is "for whom"?

  • Did opposing civil rights work?

  • Did opposing a woman's right to choose work?

  • Did supply side economics work?

  • Does opposing the Kyoto treaty work?

  • Has our historical foreign policy towards Cuba, China worked?

  • Has Bush's Mid East policy worked?

  • Did Jesse Helms/Pat Buchanan's isolationist foreign policy thinking work?

  • Did Nixon's domino theory really make sense in Southeast Asia? Did that work?

  • With all of the increasing demands of the American population (Bush proposing to create a whole new cabinet level agency for Homeland Security) does the concept of limited government really work?


    Sure blacks made gains during the 80s. Was that because of Reagan (who was hostile to us) or was it in spite of him? Sure Carter's presidency was flawed, but is that because of "liberalism" or because of the man in the seat?

    Also, obviously, your statement is singularly biased toward your perspective. If I were a "Lilliputian" (whatever the heck that is MBM) I'm sure I would say that I am one because their policy works. Wouldn't I? Would an anti-Lilliputian also agree to that though?
  • Icon,

    quote:
    Would an anti-Lilliputian also agree to that though?


    Anti-Liliputians are Brobdingnagians. big grin Liliputs are tiny people, Brodgingwhatevers are giants, and they didn't get along too well. It has to do with which way to an eat an egg, if I remember right. Go here: Gulliver's Travels.

    Anyway, what side do you fall on: lib or conservative, or none of the above? Which side and why or why not?
    I really can't get with Conservative or Liberal labels because both, like beauty, are in the eye of the beholder.

    However, I guess I'm a Conservative because politically, I believe that our system is (should be) a government "of the people, by the people." But I don't believe that the People is the Federal government. The People are comprised of State governments (and their sub-divisions).

    So by this definition, the Federal government's role should be limited to providing for the people, i.e., persons, what the people, i.e., local governments, are unable or unwilling to provide for themselves.

    Yes, I am a States Rightist. The Federal government's relationship to the States should be the same as the Supreme Court's relationship to the State Courts - supervisory.

    The States should make those decisions that most intimately impact our daily lives, not some body removed from the reality of life in America.

    This formula allows the People (individuals) the most power. And, likewise gives Black folks a real voice in the laws and policies that most effect us.

    Does that make me a true Conservative?
    Hmm, Kweli4Real, with that definition, it sounds hard to be anything else smile

    Is there a time when you would go liberal or libertarian?

    Oh, and Icon, I was wrong, the anti-Liliputs are another group.
    Lea,

    Actually, I tend to vote and support individual candidates that represent positions on issues that I support. There are several "Liberal" candidates I support on specific issues. And several "Conservative" candidates I support on specific issues. I have never voted based on party.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Lea:
    Anyway, what side do you fall on: lib or conservative, or none of the above? Which side and why or why not?


    Lea - thanks for asking. Unfortunately I think it's all BS. I think General Motors and Exxon run the country. Seriously though, we are a capitalist nation. Our economy drives the country forward. I think that everything that our government does has a financial or profit motive somewhere. Sometimes its deep down. Most of the time its not public. It's always smeared with a veneer of politics to make the little guy buy it. So, obviously you see how all of this Iraq stuff looks kind of fishy to me. eek

    People vote their pocket books. Like fashion, sometimes the Democrats are in style, sometimes the Republicans. Ultimately does it realy make that much difference to the little guy? Both parties lie, cheet, and steal. Both parties spew extraordinary rhetoric that enebriates most of America. Most politicians only have their own personal interests at heart. Example, do you really think Gephart's standing by the President this week was a matter of conscience? Heck no - somebody cut a deal and Gephart went with the program.

    I guess I tend to lean toward acknowledging a government role in society though. I don't like to pay taxes. I guess I just don't like there being people in dire need more. I also don't trust uncontrolled capitalism. The little guy always loses.
    Thank you for the clarification. Sorry again for overreacting......


    Junebug

    Your previous statement on black conservatives touched on all the cliche's liberals use to demean us. I'm surprised that in this day of cable news, satelite tv, and internet access, this line of thinking still exist.....Then again, there's that Houston NAACP convention.....

    Anyway, let's get down to business....

    quote:
    Originally posted by Junebug....

    1. Black Conservatives are not trying to change Black thought but appear to be USED by White Conservatives to proclaim White Conservative ideas in Black Face.

    2. It appears that each and every idea a Black Conservative have were adopted from White Conservatives.


    Take away "black conservatives" and insert "black liberals". Yes indeed, equally ridiculous isn't it? American politics and political beliefs were originally defined by Anglo-Saxons. Black conservatives or liberals did not create the system, They just try to live with it. See what you get when the emotional attachment is removed from your statement?

    quote:
    Originally posted by Junebug...

    3. Black conservatives do not involve themselves with Black oriented organizations. Such as the NAACP and the Urban League. If Black Conservatives want to be the catalyst for change in the Black Community, it must be done from inside the Black community. If you are not willing to rub elbows with those in the Black Community then Black Conservative will never make any impact on Black thought. And viewed with disgrace by Black people in general.


    The NAACP and Urban League do not want anything to do with blacks who are conservatives. The Congressional Black Caucas had problems with accepting J.C. Watts as a member. I just gave the example of what happens to black conservatives inside the community. Republican nominee Michael Steele in Baltimore was booed by members of the black community who never heard of him, or know nothing about him prior to his joining the Republican ticket for L. Governor of Maryland.

    Also, some years ago, the NAACP prevented Clarence Thomas from speaking at a school right here in Prince Georges County Maryland, by threatening a demonstration. Now I don't agree with impeached ex-pres Bill Clinton and despise the ground he walks on.....But he has every right to speak anywhere he pleases.

    I was afraid to sign on to this forum for the same reason, and do you remember all those wonderful adjectives assigned to me by certain members of TBWT?? Blacks who think like me are not welcome in the community and keep their opinions to themselves, or face ridicule!! If you don't believe me, ask Vox what he used to think of me.

    *sigh* Long hard day at work. More comming later, I promise.

    big grin big grin big grin
    quote:
    Originally posted by Junebug.....

    4. Black Conservatives rarely speak out in the interest of Black people.


    Huh?? Try reading some of Walter E. Williams or Thomas Sowell's columns over at Townhall.com or from Matt Drudges website. Also check out Michele Malkin. I just don't see black conservatives breaking their necks to shovel their accomplishments in front of a tv camera like some so-called civil rights activists I need not mention.

    quote:
    originally posted by Junebug.....

    5. White Conservatives take Black Conservatives for granted i.e. JC Watts. Republicans did not even take care of the ONLY BLACK REPUBLICAN IN WASHINGTON, that was shameful and personally it hurt my trust in Republicans in general. Blacks see no advantage being a Black Conservative.


    You probably don't know this, but Mr. Watts couldn't get support from the Democrats in his state for public office, so he chose to run as a Republican. If you want to blast the GOP leadership for their treatment of Mr. Watts, just be sure to include the Dems who gave him no support at all!! Also, you fail to account for the wide appeal in the GOP for Alan Keyes, who continues to draw large crowds where ever he speaks.

    During the Clinton years, blacks were used and taken advantage of more so than any other time in history. White House Secretary Betty Curry was used to cover up the Lewinski affair, and where is the outrage over the black historical site in Arkansas being demolished to build Clinton's library?? and how about Ron Brown who died in that plane crash found with a bullet in his head?? Jesse Jackson was furious at first and demanded an investigation......but later dropped the demand. Who is using who???

    As for having an advantage, I see no such advantage in being conservative or liberal. These are merely political thought you either agree or disagree with. Advantages in life are purely of your own making, and no political philosophy is going to do that for you.

    Number 6 I've already addressed, so let's do #7.

    quote:
    originally posted by Junebug......

    7. In general Black Conservatives never Blame White America for the horrible Wrongs done to Black America, they appear to be apologist for them or silent. There are examples on this board, when I laid out my argument regarding Affirmative Action not one self-proclaimed Black Conservative had a thing to say. Black Conservatives do not give credit to Black issues when they are righteous but remain silent. However, Colin Powell stood before White Conservatives at a Republican Convention and told them like it was and got booed by White Republicans. I was so proud of Colin that I went out and bought his book.


    So once again, Affirmative Action is a litmus test on whether or not you're black enough. I've already given my opinions on this subject here and at TBWT.com. I do not like to discuss it because all it does is bring out the anger in many people, including you, Junebug. I do not debate in anger, because logical thought goes out the window. I now understand what Mr. MBM was trying to prevent here, and I respect that.

    Two qualified applicants for a job comes down to the color of one's skin in unfair. it was unfair to exclude blacks ( and white women) in the past, and it's unfair to include blacks (and white woman) based on skin shade and gender now. Why not enforce the anti-discrimination laws already on the books?? You cannot change the past, only the present and future. End of discussion!!

    I may be nieve in my reasoning, but blaming white America for the mistreatment of black America does nothing to advance black America. Showing white America its treatment of black America has been wrong and needs to change its way of thinking leads to a change of heart, not the head.

    I simply don't have the time to comment on every single arguement raised on this forum, nor would I try. That would surely be "hijacking" the forum, don't you think?

    As for Mr. Powell, everyone in favor of AA loves to bring up that convention speech. Well, I watched that speech on c-span and Mr. Powell recieved a lot more cheers than boos. Mr. Powell is very well respected in the party and is a personal friend of President Bush. His views on AA have not ostracized him in any way, and many of you on the Far Left regard Mr. Powell as a traitor and a pawn of the Bush Administration along with Condi Rice. Junebug, to your credit you have spoken out about this and I appauld that.

    Number 8, I've already addressed. Number 9, I need some clarification as to what you are talking about. Number 10? oh yes!! I've been dying to address this one......

    quote:
    originally posted by Junebug.....

    10. Black conservatives need to get that word conservative off the label because to most black people the word conservative have racist connotations. Conservative means to leave things as they were, black people want CHANGE.


    An outright distortion of the conservative philosophy. I am conservative! I freely admit this with much pride! Conservatism to me means a deep abiding love for America and to maintain those traditions and institutions that make this country great.

    This does not mean keeping in place those traditions and institutions that were wrong and harmed the country more than helped. This does not mean using the Constitution to justify slavery and Jim Crow, and other maltreatments against black America. If you truly think I want to maintain those kinds of traditions (not you, Junebug), may I suggest a good shrink? How liberals are successful in fostering this belief is beyond me.

    I just may change my sign-on name to "conservative Bankins". I love the title that much. And speaking of love......,

    I'm a proud American who loves this country from sea to shining sea. Why is it that black America cannot express it's love for this country?? Nowhere on any thread do I see anybody actually praising this wonderfull land we live in. But you all will post opinions on your demands for Reparations and maintaining Affirmative Action without saying "please" or "thank you"!! When your demands are met in the form of Affirmative Action or a court case (Rodney King) that ends in your favor, do you give America any credit?? No!! Most of you scream it's "not enough"!!

    When you learn to love the country you live in, you may start to learn about why we black conservatives think the way we do!!

    Ok, Numbers 11 and 12 I believe have been addressed.....

    quote:
    Originally posted by Junebug......

    13. Black Conservatives appear to be ashamed of being Black.


    I am far more proud of being American. my skin color is just that...skin color. I see no pride in being white or black, or red, or yellow. That is something you cannot control (at least not now). If you are talking about heritage, that is a different matter. I have nothing but sheer admiration and pride in what my ancestors endured in this country. They lived in a time I would not have survived in. They were beaten, enslaved, and humiliated, but maintained their pride and dignity and survived through it all!! If they were alive today to see the kind of lives we are living now, they would smile with appreciation.

    I want my kids and grandkid's kids to inherit the kind of freedom I'm blessed to enjoy....in fact, I want them to have even more. Then I can lie in my grave and smile.

    I've just given you my honest opinions on what makes me think the way I do. My only agenda is to live the best kind of life I know how, and hope my generation following me can do the same.

    big grin big grin big grin
    quote:
    Originally posted by B Bankins:
    Conservatism to me means a deep abiding love for America and to maintain those traditions and institutions that make this country great.



    This might be a good place to dig deeper. Can you elaborate on the "traditions and institutions" that you are referring to?

    Also, you may not actually mean this, but your words above infer a greater love of America by conservatives than others. Certainly Ted Kennedy, Jesse Helms, David Duke, Ralph Nader, and Pat Buchanan - while disagreeing with each other widely, all can agree on their love for their country.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Icon.....

    Can you elaborate on the "traditions and institutions" that you are referring to?


    Our Armed Forces

    Our military is the finest in the world and has always been the force that keeps America safe and free. Now our military is undergoing social engineering and political correctness that lower standards and moral among the rank and file. Also our people in uniform are now the symbol of Imperialist America forcing her will on lesser countries.


    American Sports

    Sports has always been great for building character developement through competition. Now we are being told by the masters of political correctness that competition is evil and Vince Lombardy was wrong. Dodgeball is bad and must be banned. Professional boxing is dangerous and there is a move to have boxers wear headgear like the Amateurs do. NASCAR enthusiast who are mostly white males are considered racist. Hunters are considered murderers, and certain goaline celebrations are banned from football players who score touchdowns. Oh, and woman sportcasters in the men's locker rooms.


    American History

    The Revisionist are already at work here. Christopher Columbus was a plunderer, the early settlers killed the buffalo and ran the Indians off their land, the Founding Fathers were a drunken lot who owned slaves.....et,. Basically kids are being taught that America's past is evil and corrupt and we should be ashamed. Even the Boy Scouts are now a hate group.


    The Constitution

    Clearly this is under assault. If this ever becomes a living document, I see trouble ahead big time. The Campaign Finance Reform Bill is an out and out rebuke of the Constitution, along with the attempts by some in Congress Like Senator Clinton to do away with the Electoral College.

    And most important are the freedoms we enjoy as American citizens. As government grows, those freedoms erode. Politicians in both parties have successfully convinced the voting public that it needs more and more government. The only folks who need more government are those power-hungry politicians who can always demand more and more tax dollars from those of us who earn it, but said politicians somehow can never do without less. Every year the Federal budget increases far ahead the rate of inflation.


    quote:
    Originally posted by Icon....

    Also, you may not actually mean this, but your words above infer a greater love of America by conservatives than others. Certainly Ted Kennedy, Jesse Helms, David Duke, Ralph Nader, and Pat Buchanan - while disagreeing with each other widely, all can agree on their love for their country.


    This is true. I am sure these folks love their country. I am saying my political ideals stem from my love of America and how I would like to see this land evolve. I do not profess to love this country more than anyone else.

    big grin big grin big grin

    [This message was edited by B Bankins on October 05, 2002 at 06:15 PM.]
    I'll try to be brief, though it won't seem like it! smile To make the most sense I'll also provide a brief explanation of my role of government before elaborating on the conservative - liberal dynamic.

    The Role of The Federal Government

    The Federal Governement should have two primary driving factors from which the vast majority of its activities should flow: 1) maximizing the prudent growth of the economy, and 2) providing a minimum "safety net" for the least fortunate of Americans.

    Explanation: As we are a capitalist nation, the functioning of our economy naturally forms the foundation of our society. From a robust economy, comes all manner of positive things in the way of more jobs, greater consumer spending, a higher savings rate etc. - all which generally keep the country headed in the right direction. Growing economies permit people to afford everything from good quality health care and education, to homes, automobiles, and other consumer goods. It allows them to finance their retirement comfortably and pass along wealth to future generations. The symbiotic relationship that non-inflationary, high growth economic policy creates between business and consumers is profound and fundamental to the American Way of Life. It should be the government's responsibility to utilize its power to do those things, both domestically and abroad, to aggressively stimulate the growth and health of our economy.

    The societal "cost" of government economic stimulation (NOT MANAGEMENT) is that we guarantee a minimum level of existence for all Americans. We create the platform that stimulates greater (with no limits) personal wealth and accumulation, but we also ensure that the weakest of Americans are not completely ignored. Essentially, the government creates the mechanism for all Americans to be on the 'Gravy Train', and there is help for those that fall through the cracks.

    This philosophy is based upon a realistic view of Americans in a consumption-driven economic system. I believe that most healthy Americans will always both strive to be the best they can be, but also endeavor to always have more for themselves and their families. I believe that Americans are socialized to strive to always achieve more, to provide the best for their families, and to seize opportunity when it presents itself. The government "floor" is a safety net that prevents those who (for whatever reason) cannot meaningfully participate in the American Way to live in dignity.

    Are there people that abuse the system and only aspire to live off the government? Sure? Is this the vast minority of the cases though? Absolutely; and IMO policy should not be built on these exceptions.

    Government Activism: In a capitalist economy the profit motive is such that (as we have seen recently) people are sometimes apt to do things in the interests of personal greed that can have the negative effect of hurting the average citizen. The Federal Government should be active in ensuring that while those on top are encouraged to do more to create wealth and net worth through economic/entrepreneurial growth, that the common person is not harmed by those actions.

    So, economic growth and a human "safety net". We grow the economy. We invest in Americans to provide the best (most healthy, best educated, etc.) work force in the world. That means we are much more aggressive about creating better quality public schools, education, and training for Americans. We are more agressive about ensuring adequate health care to all. etc. There is also a measure of national pride that prevents me from turning away from the fact that we have deep pockets of poverty and poor health here. Someone important in history once said that we are only as strong as our weakest link. I agree. It bothers me that we do not lead the world in indices of literacy, infant mortality, life expectancy etc. Under the guise of creating the best work force in the world, I believe in investing in things that help people be the best they can be - whatever that is.

    Foreign policy and national security are evaluated against this filter as well. We do not export democracy just for the sake of spreading ideology. I believe in the fundamental right of people all over the world to self determination. Now - in the interest of creating new markets for American business we "invest" in all manner of international governments, but creating economic opportunity must be the guiding principle behind the actions. I look at foreign countries like investing in stocks - investment decisions are based upon where the greatest returns can be found. BTW - to this point - the continent of Africa would be a primary investment focal point. There is extraordinary opportunity to stimulate economic growth and wealth (for us and them) by investing there.

    Democrats and Republicans; Conservatives and Liberals

    I have to provide my understanding of the foundations of conservative and liberal political thought to explain why I believe what I do. This is not meant to be judgemental in any way - just an explanation of the genesis of my personal thinking. Also, I believe people choose to be conservative or liberal, Republican or Democrat, based upon either of two factors: self interest and ideology.

    Conservatives -

    I do believe that our two parties break largely along economic lines. I believe that conservatives are generally the party of the "haves", and that liberals are the party of the "have nots". My understanding of conservatism is that it is predicated largely upon preserving things: institutions, policies, programs, personal interests etc. People that have already accumulated wealth and priviledge naturally are interested in preserving what they have. Hence, the interest in smaller government with less intrusion in the form of both taxes and policy. If I were white, wealthy, older, and not particularly moved by ideology of any kind, my default would be to be conservative.

    Here's my analogy for conservatism: Dean Smith's "Four Corners" offense. Before the shot clock, Dean used to get leads on teams and then spread the offense out and purposefully pass the ball back and forth (without looking to score) with the sole purpose of running the clock down and not allowing the other team opportunities to score. He understood that you could just as effectively get a "W" by winning 30 - 20, as by winning 75-70. One way of looking at this is that he brilliantly exploited the rules to his favor and won lots of games as a result. Another way is that Dean exploited a loop hole in the rules and bastardized the spirit of the game just for the sake of a victory.

    Conservative idelogy, IMO, is similar in that, through various means, conservatives have acheived a "lead" in American society and now naturally want to do things to preserve that lead. Unfortunately, these actions have the impact, often times, of limiting opportunity for others. In our often times 'zero-sum' economy, reducing government programs that create opportunity for others is a means to do that. Reducing taxes not only lessens the amount taken, it also limits the resources to fund government programs that might somehow take from them as well. They are obviously conservative because it meets their personal interests to retain/preserve their personal way of life.

    (Back to the hoop analogy, the NCAA changing the rules and introducing a shot clock is like establishing laws creating opportunities for others. While Carolina fans, I'm sure, saw it as patently unfair, changing the rules levels the playing field and creates a better, more fair game for all.)


    Liberals -

    Liberals, on the other hand, are largely coming from the position of being "have nots". Therefore, to them, change and an active government assisting them in their efforts to create greater opportunities, only makes sense. As this country was initially founded for wealthy white males (remember only white males with significant property could vote), all others have from time to time benefitted from government intervention on their behalf.

    (Note: I do not believe that government is the natural solution for every problem. On the other hand, I do not believe that it always the problem either. I believe that significant effort must be invested to make government more effective and more efficient. America has grown to accept mediocre performance from government. This must change. I've laid out my broader thoughts about the large/small government debate in the editorials forum.

    Obviously there are exceptions to this conservative/liberal generalization. For the most part those exceptions occur when people are moved by ideology. The Kennedy clan is liberal because they embrace certain ideological principles around assisting the less fortunate (to those whom much is given, much is expected). Their adherance to ideology, in this case, supercedes personal economic self interest, which might otherwise make them conservative. On the other side of the aisle, there are obviously also people who are not wealthy, but who are conservative. They are so for other, personal, ideologically-driven reasons as well.

    Most people are not ideologically based, however, they vote for personal interests. This dynamic accounts for much of America being in the political center, as well as people evolving from one ideology to the other based upon their changing economic circumstances.

    Me

    As basically a "have not", I personally am much more moved by what I perceive to be an activist interpretation of government. Ideologically, I also believe in things that one might characterize as "liberal". Further, as an African American, in my lifetime I have seen the benefits of an activist/liberal government with respect to increasing my civil rights, opportunities, and freedoms. I remember segregation, the struggles to gain the vote, and other of the battles that we've fought.

    My vision of America would endeavor to create a level playing field, allowing everyone to compete equally for opportunity and wealth. Back to my 'role of government' above, government should work to ensure that the tide is always rising as aggressively as is prudent. It should ensure that Americans are in a position to maximize economic growth by being the best trained, most healthy, best paid "workers" in the world. But there should be a completely even opportunity to gain that wealth by all in American society. Government should aggressively counter self-interest (captialism gone wild) as well work to ensure an equal chance for all to achieve at the best of their ability.


    Onward and Upward!

    [This message was edited by MBM on October 06, 2002 at 12:03 PM.]
    But I'm really busy these days.

    Take Care, JuneBug

    PS, so much to comment on.

    Can't do it justice right now.

    big grin

    [This message was edited by JuneBug on October 07, 2002 at 11:34 AM.]
    but there is the issue of unilateralist vs multilateralist perspective in our approach to foreign policy.

    I tend to believe that we cannot force other countries to "be with us or against us" and to do so smacks of totalitarianism...

    conservatives I've spoken with, on the other hand, tend to believe that as the only remaining superpower, USA must do whatever it thinks is right to protect "our interests".
    Because, the list I came up with are the notions that many black people believe about Black Conservatives.

    I believe that the concerns African Americans have can be resolved within conservative philosophy, too. smile

    If Black Conservatives are truly jealous for Black people there should be Black Conservatives spearheading efforts and organizations that focus on Black issues toward resolution. Look at all the organizations headed up by Liberals that address African American concerns, yet I can't name one Conservative African American org that addresses African American issues.

    This is where the Black Conservative can make improvements as far as the reputation they have in the Black Community.

    BB, said that Conservative principles works every time, yet there is no popular Black Conservative org that actually makes those principles work in areas that Blacks are concerned. If so, please correct me.

    [This message was edited by JuneBug on October 23, 2002 at 08:49 AM.]
    Actually, most black conservatives I know aren't the activist, illiberal ideologues encaspulated by people like Clarence Thomas or Walter Williams. They believe in affirmative action and are actually interested in the welfare of the black community. If it weren't for black conservatives aligning themselves with black liberals, the Civil Rights Movement would have probably never happened.

    Today's black "conservative" are not conservative, but are reactionary radicals who are hell bent in retrograde policies designed to set black progress about 50 or 60 years. Don't lump them together with the honest black conservatives, however muted they are, do have a vested interest in black progress.

    "colorblindness" is still a blindness.
    quote:
    So once again, Affirmative Action is a litmus test on whether or not you're black enough. I've already given my opinions on this subject here and at TBWT.com. I do not like to discuss it because all it does is bring out the anger in many people, including you, Junebug. I do not debate in anger, because logical thought goes out the window. I now understand what Mr. MBM was trying to prevent here, and I respect that.


    BB, the reason I got pissed is because I was reacting to those who was minimizing our reasons for grievances! That is what set me off. We can argue Affirmative Action but don't try to trivialize our grievances. Esp, in the manner it was done got me pissed. mad cool


    quote:
    I may be naive in my reasoning, but blaming white America for the mistreatment of black America does nothing to advance black America.


    Yes it does, it makes WHITES think about their accountability. I'm sorry and I know many of you white folks get tired as hell hearing this but 400 years of slavery and discrimination with only 30 plus years since blacks been on a the same LEVEL legal playing field is NOT ENOUGH to reconcile the pasts wrongs and evils done to Black people, that is just fact.

    And Black people KNOW IT and will continue to be pissed until justice is done or until our generation dies out which will mean that justice was not done!

    BB, it was the great work spearheaded by MLK with others like Malcolm X that caused White America and the Ruling Class of the USA to move forward Civil Rights legislation of 1964 and 65. If Blacks had not submitted our grievances then Civil Rights Issues would have been delayed.

    So blaming White America for the wrongs done against us does make a difference if it has merit.

    quote:
    Two qualified applicants for a job comes down to the color of one's skin in unfair. it was unfair to exclude blacks ( and white women) in the past, and it's unfair to include blacks (and white woman) based on skin shade and gender now. Why not enforce the anti-discrimination laws already on the books?? You cannot change the past, only the present and future. End of discussion!!


    And the equally quailified white guy is chosen almost everytime if the interviewers are white, let's not be niaeve. You see RACE DOES MATTER IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY big grin

    WHITE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION IS EVEN BIGGER THAN THE LEGAL ONE THAT EXIST! During my working career I have seen QUALIFIED BLACKS GET OVERLOOKED TIME AND AGAIN! That is Wrong too, legal action will not correct this problem across America. Here where I work, few QUALIFIED Blacks ARE BREAKING THAT GLASS CEILING, but there is some progress. One of my best friends quit because he was overlooked, it got to the point he quit his 85K job because he could not stomach working with others that he trained who were promoted and making 140K, yup that's right White people got promotions while he was ignored.

    Another Black lady quit for the same reasons, she went back to school to get her Master's in Computer Science or whatever it was, she walked away from 90K plus pay because she was not promoted which would put her on the path of making 125K plus and she is awesome (fine too BTW), the company tried to get them both back which shows they were valuable employees but they were not rewarded like their white and less or equally qualified collogues, They can't prove racism, so your legal approach will not help them.

    JuneBug big grin

    [This message was edited by JuneBug on October 23, 2002 at 10:02 AM.]
    quote:
    Originally posted by JuneBug:
    If Black Conservatives are truly jealous for Black people there should be Black Conservatives spearheading efforts and organizations that focus on Black issues toward resolution.


    This is a very important point. The fact that there aren't (m)any, to me, suggests a fundamental flaw in that "movement".
    I hear you.

    I'm working on a few things for a new topic, and Mr. MBM poses an interesting question(s) on the Condi Rice thread.

    Plus the news of the sniper's capture and work has me busy.

    No way you are being ignored. I'll respond this weekend.

    -----Bankins
    quote:
    Originally posted by Junebug.....

    My point is, are Black Conservatives really Jealous for African Americans?


    I am "jealous" for all Americans. There are no greater citizens on the face of this earth. Being a black man with a black family, I have a vested interest in the black American community and want nothing but success for the community.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Junebug....

    If Black Conservatives are truly jealous for Black people there should be Black Conservatives spearheading efforts and organizations that focus on Black issues toward resolution. Look at all the organizations headed up by Liberals that address African American concerns, yet I can't name one Conservative African American org that addresses African American issues.


    Of course you can't because the liberal media are not interested in them. These black conservative groups do not push a liberal agenda and are not fighting for tv time. They are busy empowering much of black America most liberal organizations ignor. Anyway, here are two groups you won't find on big media networks and /or BET television.....

    Project 21
    http://www.project21.org/P21Index.html


    C.O.R.E.

    CORE seeks to establish, in practice, the inalienable right for all people to determine their own destiny--to decide for themselves what social and political organizations can operate in their best interest and to do so without gratuitous and inhibiting influence from those whose interest is diametrically opposed to theirs. CORE feels that the most important fundamental freedom for all people is the right to govern themselves. If this simple ideal can be realized, then other necessary freedoms will automatically follow.

    http://www.core-online.org/features/what%20is%20core%20frame.htm

    Niger Innis
    http://www.core-online.org/staff/niger_innis.htm


    Roy Innis
    http://www.core-online.org/staff/roy_innis.htm

    More to come....


    big grin big grin big grin
    quote:
    Originally posted by Junebug......

    Yes it does, it makes WHITES think about their accountability. I'm sorry and I know many of you white folks get tired as hell hearing this but 400 years of slavery and discrimination with only 30 plus years since blacks been on a the same LEVEL legal playing field is NOT ENOUGH to reconcile the pasts wrongs and evils done to Black people, that is just fact.


    Of course! There is no way to make up for the past mistreatment of blacks, and nothing white America does will ever resolve this. The only recourse is for white attitudes toward blacks to change and to insure those past atrocities can never again occur in this country.

    But you know as well as I that many black activist and some members on this forum are only interested in revenge against "whitey", and are really not interested in equality. Far too many blacks deeply resent whites and use past injustices not to improve race relations but to club whites over the head with guilt.


    quote:
    Originally posted by Junebug.....

    And the equally quailified white guy is chosen almost everytime if the interviewers are white, let's not be niaeve. You see RACE DOES MATTER IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY


    You're making my arguement for me. Affirmative Action wants it both ways. AA says discrimination based on race and gender is wrong, but uses discrimination in a reverse form to correct it.

    What are you going to say when its an all-black company that will one day face a similiar challenge from hispanics, asians, even whites??

    As for the anti-discrimination laws on the books not being enough to enforce fair hiring practices, wouldn't the next recourse be to give those laws new teeth or simply add more laws to close the loopholes?

    And one final point about AA nobody wants to admit.....

    AA has done very little to empower many black Americans living in inner city neighborhoods. It is normally upper class blacks who benefit from this. AA in this regard has been more of a failure than the anti-discrimination laws you say are not adequate enough.

    I would love nothing more to see our society become color blind, and that is not going to happen with Affirmative Action.


    big grin big grin big grin

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