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What has political and economic conservatism done for African America? Other than allowing someone to align with an (in their mind) aspirational class/image of people who typify the core of the Republican Party, what do black folks have to be excited about, or to support, in conservatives and the Republican Party?

To be clear, this question has nothing to do with any other party or political/economic ideology. I am asking specifically what conservatives have done for us. How have they earned our support?

© MBM

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quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
What has political and economic conservatism done for African America?

A straight forward question deserves a straight forward answer: Not a damn thing!

Conservatism, by definition, preserves the status quo. Politically and economically African America has always been at the bottom. Therefore, attempts to preserve the status quo will require resisting African America's upward mobility at every turn.
An invitation emailed to Project 21:

To Whom It May Concern:

I'd like to sincerely invite anyone from your organization to participate in a thread on the black issues oriented site AfricanAmerica.org entitled "Conservatism and African America". It asks the following question:

What has political and economic conservatism done for African America? Other than allowing someone to align with an (in their mind) aspirational class/image of people who typify the core of the Republican Party, what do black folks have to be excited about, or to support, in conservatives and the Republican Party?

To be clear, this question has nothing to do with any other party or political/economic ideology. I am asking specifically what conservatives have done for us. How have they earned our support?


The discussion would, no doubt, greatly benefit by a conservative black perspective. Here is the url to the thread: http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/8061095473

I hope someone will stop by and participate.


AfricanAmerica.org
Last edited {1}
MBM, how many times have you asked this question?? Confused I know that in the past you've asked and obviously recieved no response. The silence speaks for itself. If someone has a platform, political, ideological or whatsoever to stand on concerning this topic that might remotely consist of a response, I wish that they would speak up! This question has lingered on the board for about a year now and not one response has been given.
Just let me step on my soap box for a moment MBM. I think that the problem is you are asking a straight forward question that requires some thought on the part of the respondents. First of all, some people hold the belief that party affiliation equates to ideological beliefs. We know that this is not necessarily the case. The public changes parties quite frequently, depending upon the political mood in Washington, D.C. An example of this is the shift of Conservatives in the Democratic party to the Republican Party after the Liberal Republicans (sounds funny typing this LOL) passed various Civil Rights legislation during the 1960's. Then it was passed, in part, to preserve the Union from exploding into what could've been another Civil War. Secondly, the impression that I get from the "Black Neo-Conservatives" is that they are out for only themselves. They seem to have embraced the European cultural ideal of individualism, as if no one sacrificed something to see them get to a place where they can be well spoken, intelligent, responsible human beings. I believe that this goes against our cultural values as African descended people. Ok I'm stepping off the soap box now. Smile

So if someone who is a Conservative can give a clear, concise answer exactly the history of conservatives, not the Republicans OR Democrats political parties, and how that ideology has benefitted the African-american community in any form or fashion.
quote:
What has political and economic conservatism done for African America?


Funny how you wouldn't answer the very question that I put forth with regard to left-wing progressivism in our community AMONG BLACK PEOPLE.


Here is my shot:

The Black community has traditionally been bound by CULTURAL PRECEDENT. For the longest you had a mother and grandmother who warned against "Shacking" and who could read the character of a "date" that you brought home the very first time they met them.

Economically, prior to our forefathers moving North we worked the land. There was a sense of PRIDE not to ask for handouts from anyone. The Black men were the head of the household in a much, much, much, much greater measure than is the case today. There was a social order in our community where the Black man was CULTURALLY OBLIGATED to take care of the kids that he produced.

THEN WE GOT MOBILITY. The move Northward brought us freedom from the clutches of the Southern racist but it allowed many of us to lose our grounding. The migration to the big city brough a new "game" to the culture. To be "country" with innocent "country" values was culturally supressed. (See Spike Lee's "Malcolm X" film for a reference of the pressures and transformation from "country mouse" to "city mouse").

As the northern cities filled up with migrating African-Americans (I just saw a documentary about Rochester NY and the racial problem they had as Blacks come up from the South and demanded public housing). The response was to corral a large number of people into a highly dense area and to build upward. This concentration along with the FEDERAL POLICIES that were imposed in the name of "Social Welfare" was the force that unraveled many of the work ethics and CULTURE that we had as a people when we lacked mobility but had this EXTERNAL OPPRESSIVE FORCE bearing down on us.

******
MBM - I know you.

Your use of the word "Conservative" is a projorative term.

I have told you previously a White liberal is very different than a Black liberal as a Black conservative is a Right Wing White conservative. Where as I saw a White woman sit on top of a tree for several months to protest logging - I know that no sista is going to do the same. For one thing she is going to be worried about her hair after the first week. Big Grin

For some reason though, it is very important for YOU to make your "Character Assassination By Association" by making Conservatism into automatic support for White Right Wing Interest.


MBM - Do you believe that both the Nation of Islam and the more traditional Black Muslim movement in America (and yes there is a difference) are "Conservatives" at the social level?

Please tell me what "Progressive" values that they have advanced?
quote:
Secondly, the impression that I get from the "Black Neo-Conservatives" is that they are out for only themselves.



Yemaya:

I just talked with a young guy who is an both an engineer and a "body guard" for many "Hip Hop" stars.

He told me details about their lives and how MONEY, HEDONISM and MATERIALISM are strange bed fellows to folks who grew up in the "hood" but now have some "cheddar" in their pockets.


Do you think that these HIP HOP STARS are 'CONSERVATIVES' based on your description?

Money is no object with them. Many of them blow through a lot of it.

The all have "possies" of people who work for them AT THEIR PLEASURE. "Screw UP?" There is no "Civil Service Board" or "EEO" to go to. YOU ARE OUT OF THERE. Find your own damned way home "Byatch. That will teach you to speak when you are not spoken to".

If INDIVIDUALISM and SELFISHNESS is the trait of the CONSERVATIVE I am just wondering where you put this growing force? If they will verbally assault Black females as they get paid - are they looking out for our best interest as a race in your view?

I won't even mention "Stop Snitching".
Oh SHIT! Don't tell me CON-Feed is back! Eek

(sigh)

Well, I guess now we're going to have to deal with him tag-teaming with Toussaint (at least Toussaint makes more formidable arguments because they are typical Neoliberal arguments formulated by professional exploitation-supporting economists). I guess he didn't get enough the first time around.

Oh well, we need our local village idiot and punching bag back.

Welcome back, CON-Feed! Big Grin Ready for more intellectual embarrasment? fro
Yes HIP HOP, Rock and Roll and music industry in general and life itself has its hedonistic side. We can see that through the excesses of the unearned wealth of heirs in this country, like the Hiltons, the Rockerfellers, etc. However, this topic has NOTHING to do with that or the Left/Liberal/Progressives. The direct question was, what has Conservatist/Conservatism/Conservatives done or will do to improve the lot of African-Americans?
I mean now is your opprotunity to really drop some knowledge about the Pros of Conservatism. The door is open for you to really convince African-Americans why we should be Conservatives. I don't see why the Black Neocons simply will not take this opprotunity? I am perplexed.
By the way, that tactic of deflecting to show opposing views as bad does absolutely nothing to solidify your position, at least not for me.
Also, when I say black neocons impress upon me that they are individualistic and selfish, it was related to the topic. I am referencing people like Clarence Thomas, Larry Elder and the man who has been missing from the news as of late, Armstrong Williams. I am calling their names to give you a point of reference.
So far, I haven't seen any Pros about being a Conservative/Republican for African-Americans, all that seems to be coming out is criticisms of Liberals or Progressives or Democrats. I cannot reiterate that point enough, just because you criticize doesn't mean that your position is any better. Please you must do better with your convincing statements.

Empty, I don't know if I said it already, but I am digging your avatar of Lumumba. I've got to get that.
quote:
Originally posted by Yemaya:
Empty, I don't know if I said it already, but I am digging your avatar of Lumumba. I've got to get that.


Haha, I have it up because Patrice Lumumba was one of my favorite leaders in African History. One of my other favorites is Kwame Nkrumah, but I used the Lumumba poster because I think it looks more artistic.

Lumumba is one of my favorite Black Leftists of all time (his successor Laurent-Désiré Kabila was awesome too).
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

quote:
What has political and economic conservatism done for African America?


Funny how you wouldn't answer the very question that I put forth with regard to left-wing progressivism in our community AMONG BLACK PEOPLE.


I've done so a variety of times. I don't think this post will come as a surprise to any who read.

quote:
Originally posted by MBM: Posted January 04, 2006 03:18 PM

Socialist/progressive/liberal influences in America brought the United States of America the following:

  • the end of slavery

  • women's suffrage

  • African American suffrage

  • Social Security - lifting millions of seniors from poverty

  • Medicare - providing millions of seniors with healthcare

  • the end of child labor

  • the minimum wage

  • the end of segregation

  • public schools

  • the Civil Rights Act

  • the Voting Righs Act

  • the Equal Rights Amendment

  • the Clean Air Act

  • the Clean Water Act

    ETC.

    These are all things that we pretty much take for granted - each and every one of us, conservative and liberal alike. It is fair to say that without these programs our country would be quite a different place - and much much worse.

    BTW - what did conservatives do? They opposed each and every one of these programs as vigorously as they could.
  • quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

    For some reason though, it is very important for YOU to make your "Character Assassination By Association" by making Conservatism into automatic support for White Right Wing Interest.


    What wing of the conservative movement is driving/running the Republican party and the over-all conservative agenda today? Is it so unreasonable to question those who support a movement which at its heart does and has promoted an agenda which is directly inimical to African America's interests? If it is an African American who is supporting that same Anti African American Agenda, then is it wrong to attempt to better understand that?

    A tree hugger is out to save a tree and the environment. A Neo-con's agenda is far more dangerous to the world, to our people, to the environment, etc.


    quote:
    MBM - Do you believe that both the Nation of Islam and the more traditional Black Muslim movement in America (and yes there is a difference) are "Conservatives" at the social level?


    In what way does social conservatism intersect political and economic conservatism? Please amnswer this question. The most virulent communist might be abstemious in how he manages his life. So what?

    quote:
    Please tell me what "Progressive" values that they have advanced?


    Oh, I don't know, how about greater rights and opportunity for African Americans? Roll Eyes
    quote:
    CON-FEED:
    Please tell me what "Progressive" values that they have advanced?

    MBM:
    Oh, I don't know, how about greater rights and opportunity for African Americans?


    And HOW ABOUT answering the question:
  • What has political and economic conservatism done for African America?
  • What do black folks have to be excited about, or to support, in conservatives and the Republican Party?

    That's a TWO(plus)-PART question. Each element connects to and is inseparable from the other. So the question has to do with the POLITICAL and ECONOMIC CONservatism as manifest by Republicanism(s).

    And when you said this... We should have known:
    Frown "Here is my shot..." Frown

    ...That "your shot" wasn't going to be about shit!
  • quote:
    Originally posted by Yemaya:
    The direct question was, what has Conservatist/Conservatism/Conservatives done or will do to improve the lot of African-Americans?
    I mean now is your opprotunity to really drop some knowledge about the Pros of Conservatism. The door is open for you to really convince African-Americans why we should be Conservatives. I don't see why the Black Neocons simply will not take this opprotunity? I am perplexed.

    That's the funniest part of this whole thing. They don't avoid this opportunity because because they want to... they do it because they have to. There simply aren't any rational points to be made. They just don't exist. No conservative could just say "Conservatives and the conservative agenda have done ____________________ for the Black community. Our philosophies have bettered African America in this way, ____________________.

    Getting slapped in the face with reality is hard to take.
    quote:
    I mean now is your opprotunity to really drop some knowledge about the Pros of Conservatism



    Yemaya:

    Please note - I am not a "conservative".

    The labels "liberal" and "conservative" are contextual.

    I prioritize the value of CULTURE in shaping the ideas of the people and go a long way to translate what are "common goals" in their minds into PHYSICAL REPRESENTATIONS.

    It is FOOLISH for anyone to support of oppose something simply because it is "liberal" or "conservative". I choose to use REAL WORLD EVIDENCE on the impact of various policies. I support policies that produce favorable results (in my opinion) and work to suppress those that fail to deliver.

    As I have told the "swarm" on this board their position in the 4th quadrant of the Ideological test that MBM had many of us take should be particularly disturbing to those who are seeking CHANGE in this society. Many of you are socially libertarian where you pretty much allow everybody to do the hell they want to do yet you are economically repressive where those who choose to have their personal earnings confiscated in the name of the common good.

    It seems to me that in not being able to ORGANIZE and DIRECT your people toward a common goal using your interior cultural controls and the TYPICAL CONCEPT OF "BENEFIT AND REWARD" AS A RESULT OF CERTAIN ACTIONS that you are doing all of the things that are necessary to remain in the same place and to be forever discontent.

    To the question of "What has conservatism done for Black America"?........Allow me to step away from the fake constraint of "liberal/conservativism" and speak about the real world?

    Where as we will often hear about how much the UNION MOVEMENT has assisted African Americans into the middle class. This is TRUE. Heavy industry in Detroit, Clevland, Camden, New York and other places offered good paying jobs to Blacks and we benefited from the higher salaries that were negotiated by the unions.

    HOWEVER, in being confined by your ideology many of you don't look to the other side of the negotiating table and see who the union is negotiating with. The corporation that is PROVIDING THESE JOBS that Black people have benefited from. In many of your minds these are the enemies!

    Yet we see the state of affairs when the "enemy departs" town. While the people who have the potential to make $25 per hour still are present - there are no company around to allow them to express this $25 per hour wage rate.

    In my analsys the union NEGOTIATES the size of the slice of the pie that will go into the employees pocket in the form of salary and benefits. IT DOES NOT DETERMINE THE SIZE OF THE PIE itself. The corporation as an amalgamation of labor, capital resources, and a list of customers create the environment for there to be a BLACK MIDDLE CLASS that you speak of.

    The issue of "conservatisim" (as you call it) comes in with regards to the policies that are necesary to insure the perpetuation of the corporate entity by seeking profits in increasing sales prices and reducing costs.

    So while someone above listed all of the progressive contributions to this country in the way of labor rights, etc (and I AGREE) it would also be folly to ignore the other side of the equation.

    This representents my frustration in attempting to have a reasonable debate with many of you. In the advocation of your IDEOLOGY you are able to hold your ground with a set of facts that only tell half the story. You can display your moral superiority in saying that "we progressives banished children from the coal mines". You don't own up to the notion that there are PLENTY OF POTENTIAL COAL MINERS, Auto workers, Ship builders and textile workers all throughout the United States, and particularly in the large urban population centers of the North. The only problem is that there DON'T HAVE A HOST COMPANY THAT IS STILL AROUND FOR THEM TO EXPRESS THEIR TALENTS AND CONVERT THEM INTO A PAYCHECK.

    The benefit of corporatization and industrialization in the BLACK COMMUNITY is clear! This is not "progressivism". Progressivism worked upon the POWER that the corporation respresented and allowed Blacks to benefit. Please make note that absent the corporation there is no benefit (MBM).

    My challenge is - Look across Black America TODAY and employ your ideology to generate ORGANIC GROWTH from the local level up.
    ****
    Expected come backs - "Not all corporations are run by 'conservatives'".
    My come back - Not all conservative corporate types stood against child labor laws and thus they help in building the current body of labor laws that we have.
    quote:
    The labels "liberal" and "conservative" are contextual.

    FULL OF SHIT alert!! CON-Feed is FULL OF SHIT!!

    Why would you take your "shot" if the "conservative" doesn't apply to you, what you espouse and, more importantly, what you reflexively defend all the time?

    You took a crack at it and you tried to "counter" (aka divert) with "What Has Liberalism Done?" because you know you're heavily invested in "conservative" as your political identity, no matter what name you want to call yourself. You know you support CONservative/Republican POLITICS and share their themes. So cut the BULLSHIT!!

    I know you cower because you perceive "CONSERVATIVE" as having negative baggage in the Black Community. That's why you try to deny the extent and degree of your political conservatism even when that is betrayed by everything you have to say on topics that discuss particular public policies and ideas.

    Yes, certain contexts... yada... yada... but you have not demonstrated how NONE of them apply to you and your political/economic philosophies. You chose to take a "shot". Stop trying to back out and COP OUT now.

    Take a real shot or SHUT THE FUCK UP!!
    If you have nothing to say on the actual topic which asks a specific, direct question with a clear CONTEXT... then SHUT UP!

    It's just that simple.

    Nothing about Cultural and Social conservatism was mentioned or questioned. The CONTEXT is political and economic conservatism. Ain't nothing difficult about that to understand. But, since you want to try to mystify the issue... Lay out all the possible different "contexts" for POLITICAL/ECONOMIC conservatism then tell us how come a response couldn't be made to address any or all such contexts within the specific reference (which you avoided) POLITICAL & ECONOMIC CONSERVATISM.
    quote:
    I prioritize the value of CULTURE in shaping the ideas of the people and go a long way to translate what are "common goals" in their minds into PHYSICAL REPRESENTATIONS.
    Then you comments and perspectives are useless here.

    STFU!!! unless you're going to address the clearly defined CONTEXT:
    What has political and economic conservatism done for African America?

    What do black folks have to be excited about, or to support, in [political/economic] conservatives and the Republican Party?

    FUCK YOUR RHETORIC, Con-Feed... Either speak about the benefits rec'd from Political/Economic Conservatism and/or the Republican Party or STFU!!
    quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:
    quote:
    No comment at this time except to ask if there's any chance you will be using a new, perhaps different avatar in the not-too-distant future?


    Please make the case as to why I should change it and I will be happy to do so.

    Thanks.

    Sensitivity to the feelings of others?

    Or, by way of analogy, many people here are opposed to the war in Iraq. But these same people probably would be offended if I used a picture of a corpse of a dead US soldier as an avatar.

    Does that make sense?
    quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

    I choose to use REAL WORLD EVIDENCE on the impact of various policies. I support policies that produce favorable results (in my opinion) and work to suppress those that fail to deliver.


    Here's my evidence. Where's yours?

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    Socialist/progressive/liberal influences in America brought the United States of America the following:

  • the end of slavery

  • women's suffrage

  • African American suffrage

  • Social Security - lifting millions of seniors from poverty

  • Medicare - providing millions of seniors with healthcare

  • the end of child labor

  • the minimum wage

  • the end of segregation

  • public schools

  • the Civil Rights Act

  • the Voting Righs Act

  • the Equal Rights Amendment

  • the Clean Air Act

  • the Clean Water Act

    ETC.

    These are all things that we pretty much take for granted - each and every one of us, conservative and liberal alike. It is fair to say that without these programs our country would be quite a different place - and much much worse.

    BTW - what did conservatives do? They opposed each and every one of these programs as vigorously as they could.
  • quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

    Please make note that absent the corporation there is no benefit (MBM).


    And you need to wake up and get off these romantic platitudes that you live and breathe by. What is a corporation if not a collection of inputs? What do you think makes up those inputs CF? PEOPLE. EMPLOYEES.

    When you talk about "unexpressed wages", why don't you look at the other side of that coin? What about the unexpressed returns and value squandered by people like Ken Lay and Martha Stewart who defraud consumers, investors, employees etc.? What about the damage that bad strategy - stupid mangement - has on companies - destroying families and opportunity? Do you think those miners in Pennsylvania would have died if mangement had respected their safety and not done (maybe) the bare minimum to protect them?

    You decry unions in a country where management has regularly exploited and abaused employees - where they have set goons on workers - killing and maiming them (Henry Ford at Ford Motor Co.). You attack unions when without them workers would be underpaid, would be exposed to all manner of dangerous and toxic working conditions, would have little to no voice against the unilateral decisions of greedy management who only respect the profit motive and consider workers as interchangeable nameless/faceless resources.

    Which do you think has destroyed more value and done more damage to people in this country, workers or management?

    Why are you so singularly focused on such a limited world view? Folks with money and who run corporations don't care about you. Why are you carrying their dirty drawers?
    Confused
    quote:
    What do you think makes up those inputs CF? PEOPLE. EMPLOYEES.



    IF MBM DOES NOT GET THIS THEN THERE IS NO HOPE FOR HIM.

    MBM - Today we can look at the large population centers in the North - NYC, Philadelphia, Camden, Washington DC, Newark, Cleveland - the list goes on.

    All of them have a significant class of LABOR/EMPLOYEES who no doubt could be good, union employees. They would carefully invest their wages that the union provided them.


    They would be shop stewards in the mill and ensure that the mill did not practice slavery.

    They would make sure that the women who work by their side were treated fairly and paid an equal age.

    They would all African American to work by them side by side, voting in their union elections.

    They would make sure that a portion of their salary was paid to Social Security - lifting millions of seniors from poverty

    They would make sure that their pay checks paid for Medicare - providing millions of seniors with healthcare

    They would make sure that there were no children workin in the mills and manufacturing plants.

    They would strike until their salary was greater than the minimum wage

    They would make sure that the plant allowed people of any race to sit where they wanted to.

    They would use their salaries to pay property taxes and thus for the public schools

    They would make sure that their host company was in line with the Civil Rights Act

    They would negotiate some time off for the employees to vote on election day, able to express their rights to vote per the Voting Righs Act

    ( the Equal Rights Amendment) This never passed so it's irrelevant.

    They would make sure that their company was not letting discharge into the local river and the air thus violating the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act


    ************************8
    THE ONLY ISSUE, MBM - IS THAT ABSENT A JOB TO EXPRESS ALL OF THESE GREAT ACHEIVEMENTS THAT YOU LIST.

    If the EMPLOYEE SIDE IS THE MAGIC PART - why haven't you and other MORALLY AND INTELLECTUALLY SUPERIOR FOLKS BEEN ABLE TO WORK YOUR MAGIC IN THESE LARGE POPULATION CENTERS over the past 30+ years?

    You and so many others have been able to both pontificate and to point the finger of Blame outside of your own domain. Rarely are you held accountable for the FLAWS IN YOUR IDEOLOGY .
    You are able to point to historical forces that stand in your way. If someone points to OTHER PEOPLE who have came from nothing, applied certain universal principles for success and have achieved - you simply discount them saying that your condition was worse than theirs NEVER HAVING TO ACCOUNT FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING TODAY.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

    If someone points to OTHER PEOPLE who have came from nothing, applied certain universal principles for success and have achieved - you simply discount them saying that your condition was worse than theirs NEVER HAVING TO ACCOUNT FOR WHAT YOU ARE DOING TODAY.


    Does this in any way address the issue of this thread or the question at hand? Confused Is this the ONLY thing that you can say when confronted with evidence that you cannot counter?

    I sure hope Project 21 can come up with something better! lol

    BTW - show me one group in America that is doing anything close to how well African Americans are who suffered anywhere near as much as we have. We outperform any and all groups and, in fact, DOMINATE in those areas where we have an equal and fair opportunity to achieve.
    quote:
    BTW - show me one group in America that is doing anything close to how well African Americans are who suffered anywhere near as much as we have. We outperform any and all groups and, in fact, DOMINATE in those areas where we have an equal and fair opportunity to achieve.
    And, yes, please do that while talking about that group, whatever group, who have "suffered" similarly and chronicle their ascent within THE COUNTRY OF THEIR OPPRESSION.

    I mean, if you're going to make comparisons, make legit ones.
    quote:
    Originally posted by UppityNegress:

    MBM,

    Exactly how are you defining "conservative"? What is the trademark of a conservative? Is it supposed to be identical to Republican?


    OK - since you asked! bsm

    quote:
    Originally posted by MBM:

    Democrats and Republicans; Conservatives and Liberals

    I have to provide my understanding of the foundations of conservative and liberal political thought to explain why I believe what I do. This is not meant to be judgemental in any way - just an explanation of the genesis of my personal thinking. Also, I believe people choose to be conservative or liberal, Republican or Democrat, based upon either of two factors: self interest and ideology.

    Conservatives -

    I do believe that our two parties break largely along economic lines. I believe that conservatives are generally the party of the "haves", and that liberals are the party of the "have nots". My understanding of conservatism is that it is predicated largely upon preserving things: institutions, policies, programs, personal interests etc. People that have already accumulated wealth and priviledge naturally are interested in preserving what they have. Hence, the interest in smaller government with less intrusion in the form of both taxes and policy. If I were white, wealthy, older, and not particularly moved by ideology of any kind, my default would be to be conservative.

    Here's my analogy for conservatism: Dean Smith's "Four Corners" offense. Before the shot clock, Dean used to get leads on teams and then spread the offense out and purposefully pass the ball back and forth (without looking to score) with the sole purpose of running the clock down and not allowing the other team opportunities to score. He understood that you could just as effectively get a "W" by winning 30 - 20, as by winning 75-70. One way of looking at this is that he brilliantly exploited the rules to his favor and won lots of games as a result. Another way is that Dean exploited a loop hole in the rules and bastardized the spirit of the game just for the sake of a victory.

    Conservative idelogy, IMO, is similar in that, through various means, conservatives have acheived a "lead" in American society and now naturally want to do things to preserve that lead. Unfortunately, these actions have the impact, often times, of limiting opportunity for others. In our often times 'zero-sum' economy, reducing government programs that create opportunity for others is a means to do that. Reducing taxes not only lessens the amount taken, it also limits the resources to fund government programs that might somehow take from them as well. They are obviously conservative because it meets their personal interests to retain/preserve their personal way of life.

    (Back to the hoop analogy, the NCAA changing the rules and introducing a shot clock is like establishing laws creating opportunities for others. While Carolina fans, I'm sure, saw it as patently unfair, changing the rules levels the playing field and creates a better, more fair game for all.)


    Liberals -

    Liberals, on the other hand, are largely coming from the position of being "have nots". Therefore, to them, change and an active government assisting them in their efforts to create greater opportunities, only makes sense. As this country was initially founded for wealthy white males (remember only white males with significant property could vote), all others have from time to time benefitted from government intervention on their behalf.

    (Note: I do not believe that government is the natural solution for every problem. On the other hand, I do not believe that it always the problem either. I believe that significant effort must be invested to make government more effective and more efficient. America has grown to accept mediocre performance from government. This must change. I've laid out my broader thoughts about the large/small government debate in the editorials forum.

    Obviously there are exceptions to this conservative/liberal generalization. For the most part those exceptions occur when people are moved by ideology. The Kennedy clan is liberal because they embrace certain ideological principles around assisting the less fortunate (to those whom much is given, much is expected). Their adherance to ideology, in this case, supercedes personal economic self interest, which might otherwise make them conservative. On the other side of the aisle, there are obviously also people who are not wealthy, but who are conservative. They are so for other, personal, ideologically-driven reasons as well.

    Most people are not ideologically based, however, they vote for personal interests. This dynamic accounts for much of America being in the political center, as well as people evolving from one ideology to the other based upon their changing economic circumstances.


    Conservatives and Liberals

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