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Salaam,


Here is an excerpt from an article by Uhuru Hotep:


full article here

quote:
Today, what has changed is not the game or the playing field, it is our understanding of game theory and game strategy. For example, psychologist Wade Nobles (1986) coined the metaphorical term conceptual incarceration to help us better understand a key aspect of the psychological slavery that shackles African people. Conceptual incarceration results from our unwitting adoption of erroneous concepts, ideas, views, opinions and theories about ourselves as African people, about Europeans, and about the world. It is Nobles' contention that the debilitating anti-Black, anti-African attitudes in the belief systems of virtually all Black people regardless of class, education, or religious orientation are largely to blame for the underdeveloped state of African communities in the U.S. and abroad.



Dr. Nobles also believes that since our behavior is influenced by what we think about ourselves and the world, We all, in varying degrees as Black people socialized under White supremacy, have internalized a set of beliefs that compel us to serve the needs of our oppressors while blatantly neglecting our own group development. These are the "invisible chains" that bind us



Heavy....And accurate...



What say you?



Kai
"Old fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!" And with that he lifted high his sword and flames ran down the blade.
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Echo:

Heavy....And accurate...


Well, I might leave off the heavy part but I'll just call it an ECHO. IMO, we should always inspect the things we think, feel and say, questioning where it is we get certain ideas and why certain things bother or affect us as they do.

Quite a few folks come in here repeating things that, IMO, are obviously a result of how the Terms Of Debate have been set not by us or for us. To me, that's what Conceptual Incarcerarion is about: being trapped in someone else's Terms Of Debate.

That's a set of cards from a stacked deck where even if you "win", you lose... Case In Point: Affirmative Action. Well, hell... the whole problems of race in America.

I mean, the absurdity of Emancipation, being "freed" in 1865 (with no Reparations) only to have to engage in protest for Freedom's rights in years up to 1965 and just now bringing Reparations as an Black "mainstream" issue to the fore.
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quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
The Matrix has you, NEgrO!



Okay.... I was going to add something.... but now I can't because THAT WAS TOO FUNNY!

It reminds me of the time a group of us college Muslims were going out to a lecture..... and we were discussing what opponents might be there.... and one particular brother said that he was going to go..

INCOGNEGRO..

for some reason the timing and everything of that term sent us rolling on the floor with laughter.....



Peace,
Khalliqa
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
Salaam,


Here is an excerpt from an article by Uhuru Hotep:


full article here

quote:
Today, what has changed is not the game or the playing field, it is our understanding of game theory and game strategy. For example, psychologist Wade Nobles (1986) coined the metaphorical term conceptual incarceration to help us better understand a key aspect of the psychological slavery that shackles African people. Conceptual incarceration results from our unwitting adoption of erroneous concepts, ideas, views, opinions and theories about ourselves as African people, about Europeans, and about the world. It is Nobles' contention that the debilitating anti-Black, anti-African attitudes in the belief systems of virtually all Black people regardless of class, education, or religious orientation are largely to blame for the underdeveloped state of African communities in the U.S. and abroad.



Dr. Nobles also believes that since our behavior is influenced by what we think about ourselves and the world, We all, in varying degrees as Black people socialized under White supremacy, have internalized a set of beliefs that compel us to serve the needs of our oppressors while blatantly neglecting our own group development. These are the "invisible chains" that bind us



Heavy....And accurate...



What say you?



Kai


yeah

Exactly. And as a result, this is what we have today in the socialization of blackfolks....many believe it...."I think I am, therefore I am." As Harriet Tubman says "I can save free more slaves...if they knew they were slaves." This mindset is still revelant now. You see it in how we view ourselves and how we treat each other. How tragic.'
I kind of touch on this subject in my post to the forum on African city name changes and how white people are having a problem w/ it...

White people fight us (and each other for that matter) on several battle fronts; physical, emotional, psychological, spiritual...

We can see it right before our very eyes in the "war" on terror.

Give it up to the conservatives (Phaux news, ect); the libs don't stand a chance..

The conservative propaganda machine is awesome..

They will take a word and re-define it (Fair & Balanced) ..

Give it a new meaning that runs counter to what is even in white dictionaries...
to add to the comedic twist this topic has gone down...

and i hope i can relate this story in a funny way...

but i was watching a episode of the cnn talk show they use to have on during the middle of the day and actor/comedian paul mooney was on it...

the topic was the "N" word and they had a panel of a professor of black studies from some university and a minister of the NOI...

the professor and the minister were very serious and somber in their demeanor, they gave the exected "don't use the "N" word it is a legacy of our slave past" speil..

then it was paul mooney's turn..

he told the audience he says the "N" word 100 times a day, because it makes his teeth white...
'Dr. Nobles also believes that since our behavior is influenced by what we think about ourselves and the world, We all, in varying degrees as Black people socialized under White supremacy, have internalized a set of beliefs that compel us to serve the needs of our oppressors while blatantly neglecting our own group development. These are the "invisible chains" that bind us'

I agree with that.

I addressed this reality in my second book: 'Manumission:A HANDBOOK FOR PERSONAL RELEASE
FROM THE FINAL BONDAGE OF AMERICA'S CHATTEL SLAVERY


Our mind holds us in bondage from the realization of who we are.

In fact, our mind tells us what 'charlie' taught us.

Our color is not only 'who' we are, but 'all' we are.

And we agree.

Typically.


PEACE

Jim Chester
Reality is what White people say it is.

Europe is a continent after all. lol

I have experimented with this concept with people for years. Every now and then I will run into a person who considers the idea of Europe being a continent ridiculous. But most people go along with it. I ran into an Irish American who actually came across like he seemed "afraid" of not thinking of Europe as a continent. The programming of children is control of the future.

umbrarchist
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
Reality is what White people say it is.


I do agree that we need to rethink many of those forms of thought that we been habituated to accepting.

This is true.

But I think we need to guard against setting up our own equivalent of ideological purity.

In the wake of recent discussions on the board I've come to realize that I took too much for granted. I've studied other cultures for years. In particular, through my studies of Buddhism, a conceptual framework which diverges quite drastically from that of the west. I've questioned and dissected western categories for a long time. And mistakenly took it for granted that it was a given.

But I've had to realize that others have not walked in my shoes.

So yes. Let us research and question and study non-western sources. Let us learn the history of Africa.

However we need to guard against being merely reactionary. If a white person says that one needs lungs to breathe let's not stop breathing to spite him. Let's not deprive ourselves of vital human experiences, forms of thought, and useful tools merely because we associate them with the west.

Thinking which is truly independent is much more difficult to do.

Re-thinking will not always mean coming to the opposite conclusion ... and neither will it mean all of us coming to the same conclusions ...
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quote:
However we need to guard against being merely reactionary. If a white person says that one needs lungs to breathe let's not stop breathing to spite him. Let's not deprive ourselves of vital human experiences, forms of thought, and useful tools merely because we associate them with the west.


And could you please explain the occasion? What exactly has you, almost reflexively, suggesting that there is a tendency or, perhaps, a "reactionary" impulse present here?

And what's up with the assumption you have that there has been some declaration that the "conclusion" will be opposite or oppositional? And what is this about?

quote:
neither will it mean all of us coming to the same conclusions ...


The confusion, IMO, when it comes to talk about "ideological purity" or the notions about us all "thinking alike" or whatever this is about... the confusion is over how what is at issue... how the "problem" or issue is defined.

Folks will talk about wanting to find solutions, this, that and the other but, IMO, the real debate is about how "the problem" is defined and defining the problem is on the opposite side of the "conclusion" - i.e. it is at the beginning vs. the end.

IMO, there is much to be debated and should be debated when we can't agree on the most basic of things. And I don't think it is asking for too much for us to at least approach a common understanding on what is at issue as opposed to some rather self-serving, overly subjective interpretations of what is the reality based on unexamined assumptions that are too often inflated by warped perceptions.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
However we need to guard against being merely reactionary. If a white person says that one needs lungs to breathe let's not stop breathing to spite him. Let's not deprive ourselves of vital human experiences, forms of thought, and useful tools merely because we associate them with the west.


And could you please explain the occasion? What exactly has you, almost reflexively, suggesting that there is a tendency or, perhaps, a "reactionary" impulse present here?


I'm simply taking note of what seem to me almost a kneejerk suspicion (among some people) of western ideas and/or institutions. Which seems to result in arguments which go something like "whatever the truth is it must be different from what whitey thinks." To the point where if someone said "1+1=2" the response might be "Yeah ...according to whitey." Whether we think anyone actually thinks like, I would definitely characterize it as merely reactionary.

The occasion? I suppose would be recent exchanges on several very active threads.


quote:

And what's up with the assumption you have that there has been some declaration that the "conclusion" will be opposite or oppositional? And what is this about?


What I am suggesting is that the end result of re-thinking/questioning a dominant western paradigm won't necessarily be the wholesale rejection of the paradigm.

quote:

quote:
neither will it mean all of us coming to the same conclusions ...


The confusion, IMO, when it comes to talk about "ideological purity" or the notions about us all "thinking alike" or whatever this is about... the confusion is over how what is at issue... how the "problem" or issue is defined.


Whenever my students ask me the question "What is the answer?" I almost always turn it about and ask "What is the question?"

I am by no means suggesting that we do think alike.

Also, precisely in recognition of the fact that we don't think alike, I'm suggesting that we need to stop expecting that we either should or will think alike.

quote:

there is much to be debated and should be debated when we can't agree on the most basic of things. And I don't think it is asking for too much for us to at least approach a common understanding on what is at issue as opposed to some rather self-serving, overly subjective interpretations of what is the reality based on unexamined assumptions that are too often inflated by warped perceptions.


I agree.
quote:
I'm simply taking note of what seem to me almost a kneejerk suspicion (among some people) of western ideas and/or institutions. Which seems to result in arguments which go something like "whatever the truth is it must be different from what whitey thinks." To the point where if someone said "1+1=2" the response might be "Yeah ...according to whitey." Whether we think anyone actually thinks like, I would definitely characterize it as merely reactionary.

The occasion? I suppose would be recent exchanges on several very active threads.


Well, I be up front and say the reason why I asked is because I don't consider myself "reactionary" at all and your comments, without naming names or making clear references to certain exchanges in particular puts me in a crossfire which I don't feel I fit in. You may think I do. I dunno. Which is all the more reason why I have to question your "suspicion" or assumptions if in any way, on any subject you think that idea fits me.

I also think it's problematic in general, whether it's about me or not.

quote:
What I am suggesting is that the end result of re-thinking/questioning a dominant western paradigm won't necessarily be the wholesale rejection of the paradigm.


Who says it would or should be?


quote:
Also, precisely in recognition of the fact that we don't think alike, I'm suggesting that we need to stop expecting that we either should or will think alike.


I continue to have problems seeing how this is a revelation or a point worth emphasing the way people do. What really is the point? Maybe this is personal and therefore really close and meaningful to you. It's not to me so it really doesn't resonate with me. So maybe you can explain. I tried to explain... myself.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

I continue to have problems seeing how this is a revelation or a point worth emphasing the way people do. What really is the point? Maybe this is personal and therefore really close and meaningful to you. It's not to me so it really doesn't resonate with me. So maybe you can explain. I tried to explain... myself.



Nate, I did not have you in mind ... at all ... to remove any lingering doubts.

I merely felt like recording my opinion on this thread ... In part, it was a conciliatory gesture towards the thread starter, Saracen ... a note of partial agreement ... for whatever it is worth ... the thread I have in mind is "The Origin of the White Race" ...

And I suppose I also have in mind certain discussions I've had with Oshun Auset.

Since when did a post have to be a "revelation"? If that were a requirement the posting around here would go down quite a bit .... Smile
No, HB... a number of people say that stuff like it's really profound or heavy stuff. I do think it's self-serving (in a negative way) for quite a few people who say it. I was thinking this was personal to you because of the Math Is Funny stuff and your "I'm The Only Brother" real-life situation - stuff I'm not really up on but think forms your perceptions/views.

I had reason to think you included me given your comments on one of the Blake threads.

Quite a few members of our SILENT MAJORITY (lol) and a number of half-in-the-closet Black Conservatives are quick to try to gain instant legitimacy with that "we don't all think alike" jargon, wanting to suggest that everybody's views are equally valid as if this is kindergarten on Barney day.
Peace....


quote:
This mindset is still revelant now. You see it in how we view ourselves and how we treat each other.


Dr. Na'im Akbar, a well respected psychologist, wrote a book titled "chains and Images of Psychological slavery". In this work Dr. Akbar states the following : As cruel and painful as chattel slavery was, it could be exceeded only by a worse form of slavery. This worse form of slavery along with the chattel slavery is the subject of these two essays. The slavery that captures the mind and incarcerates the motivation, perception, aspiration and identity in a web of anti-self images, generating a personal and collective self-destruction, is more cruel than the shackles on the wrists and ankles. The slavery that feeds on the psychology, invading the soul of man, destroying his loyalties to himself and establishing allegiance to forces which destroy him, is an even worse form of capture. The influences that permit an illusion of freedom, liberation, and self-determination, while tenaciously holding one's mind in subjugation, is the folly of only the sadistic

I think that many blacks fail to understand that corrective action is more than simply learning information which was previously witheld from black people regarding black history. If we are to truly address the issue and seek healing, we must search within ourselves and create a map of the pathology.

We can't just learn our way out of what is best described as a collective mental illness.

One manifestation of our disease is our discomfort with any subject which seeks to elevate black people. Of course it is true that there are those who took the prescription of self knowledge, and abused it to the point where they do nothing but get high off of the past...This is real, however, this is most certainly not the norm...Most black people who become aware of black history extending beyond slavery learn a new apppreciation for blackness..This new appreciation is one phase of our therapy..

Okay..I am gonna cut this short...


Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
No, HB... a number of people say that stuff like it's really profound or heavy stuff. I do think it's self-serving (in a negative way) for quite a few people who say it. I was thinking this was personal to you because of the Math Is Funny stuff and your "I'm The Only Brother" real-life situation - stuff I'm not really up on but think forms your perceptions/views.


I said nothing whatsoever about everyone's views being equally valid.

And just because a statement can be self-serving does not mean it is always so ... nor does it mean that the statement is entirely lacking in profundity.
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
One manifestation of our disease is our discomfort with any subject which seeks to elevate black people.


Any subject which elevates black people? hmmmmm ....

Who is to decide if the subject actually "elevates" black people?

Perhaps it doesn't elevate but in some instances is instead a cheap thrill? A form of escapism?

Perhaps in some contexts, the subject only distracts from something far more important? From a vision far more grand?

I just luvs the way we diagnose anyone who disagrees with us as "diseased" ...

Very easy ... very self-serving ...

This is precisely the kind of ish I'm talking about ... which seeks to dominate the discourse on "liberation" by painting any dissenter as self-deceived ...

Very liberating ... Indeed ...

Perhaps your question is answered now, Nate?
Peace...

This is not a matter of name calling. Raising the past greatness of your own people is a very normal and natural behaviour for the human species. All cultures record their past, whetehr it be by oral transmissions, or written records.

I challenge you to find any community of learned people among any other culture besides American blacks who willfully reject subjects which discuss the greatness of their ancestors...

This argument is not about one subjects importance in relation to another...We are discussing the complete rejection of Ancient History because of what the ghosts of that past may require in the present.

Black Africans wanted to go home...Black Africans had a home. Black Africans had an agenda, they were not looking for another, younger people to place them on a course...

Now there are those seeking to remind us of who we really are...and we reject the hell out of it, because we no longer think like those people who were captured centuries ago...We do not wish to be reminded because we do not want the burden of remembering...

This behaviour is not natural. It is most certainly indicative of a self loathing in desperate need of correction.

If we reject what we have been, and what we are it should be after a serious knowledge of self has been attsained...but the impulsive rejection must be seen as part of some larger problem...



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
One manifestation of our disease is our discomfort with any subject which seeks to elevate black people. Of course it is true that there are those who took the prescription of self knowledge, and abused it to the point where they do nothing but get high off of the past...This is real, however, this is most certainly not the norm...Most black people who become aware of black history extending beyond slavery learn a new apppreciation for blackness..This new appreciation is one phase of our therapy..

Okay..I am gonna cut this short...


Kai


I think talking about black people doing creative work now in the present elevates black people ... that coming to a mathematician and insisting that he overwhelm his subject with irrelevant detail is a distraction .. not an elevation ...

I think regarding history as the essential form of "self-knowledge" begs the question ...

Especially since it's quite possible that few of us are direct descendants of any of the great African dynasties. Africa is after all a vast continent.

What can you say about other indigenous peoples in the world that really don't have "great" (by western standards) empires in their history? Is the racist then correct about them?
quote:
I said nothing whatsoever about everyone's views being equally valid.


But that's often the way I've come to see those things expressed. Again, I reference your input on one of the threads with me and Blake. Your comments struck just like that.

quote:
And just because a statement can be self-serving does not mean it is always so ... nor does it mean that the statement is entirely lacking in profundity.


This doesn't tell me anything about the actual situation at hand or any particular situation.

BTW, I wasn't necessarily calling anything relative to your situation "self-serving"... just one that's very close and personal to you.

quote:
I was thinking this was personal to you because of the Math Is Funny stuff and your "I'm The Only Brother" real-life situation - stuff I'm not really up on but think forms your perceptions/views.


That said and with the lack of a particular situation where your "just because" idea is applicable... I don't know what the value of that statement was. And I shouldn't have to mention just how curious it is when you've already said:

If that were a requirement ("profundity" or making a "revelation") the posting around here would go down quite a bit ...


Since you don't subscribe to that "everybody's views are equally valid (no inspection needed)" mentality then that didn't apply to you just like you didn't have me in mind. In fact, I said "quite a few members of our Silent Majority". By definition, I wasn't including.

And there is no crime in things being "personal" to you. I was just saying that that's why it's important for you to say those things and that's why they are relevant to you because they are relative or relate to your situation when they don't to mine.
quote:
Saracen:
If we reject what we have been, and what we are it should be after a serious knowledge of self has been attained...but the impulsive rejection must be seen as part of some larger problem...


I do not reject what I have been ... either as a boy of 15 ... or as a distant gleam in a remote ancestor's eye ...

I accept it all.

I also accept all that I presently am ... without hesitation ...

I accept the reality that many generations of my people developed in the American south ... where most still are.

I listen to old blues recordings - real old - from the 1920's ... field recordings ... full of train whistles and rural dialect ... field hollas ... and moans ...

I accept that as a part of me too.

I do genealogical research on my family ... and hope to trace my lineage to the continent one day.

Perhaps there is some truth in what you say ... generally speaking ...

But to me it is ultimately a question of degree.

Why should I accept a "program of liberation" articulated by an historian - whose conception of "greatness" seems fundamentally shaped by a western paradigm which I find questionable - and which does not largely appeal to my own sensibilities?
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
One manifestation of our disease is our discomfort with any subject which seeks to elevate black people.


Any subject which elevates black people? hmmmmm ....

Who is to decide if the subject actually "elevates" black people?

Perhaps it doesn't elevate but in some instances is instead a cheap thrill? A form of escapism?

Perhaps in some contexts, the subject only distracts from something far more important? From a vision far more grand?

I just luvs the way we diagnose anyone who disagrees with us as "diseased" ...

Very easy ... very self-serving ...

This is precisely the kind of ish I'm talking about ... which seeks to dominate the discourse on "liberation" by painting any dissenter as self-deceived ...

Very liberating ... Indeed ...

Perhaps your question is answered now, Nate?


Well, this discourse on "liberation" isn't Saracen's to articulate. That is, he does not have ownership of it. That he is lacking in ways to articulate it, engage it and others and have them and him embrace this exploration is no indictment on the project itself.

So, to whatever extent this strictly about you and your quarrels with Saracen... Yes, your point is pretty much well taken (at my first glance). But on the issue itself and even perhaps Saracen's sincere desire to approach this subject which is close to me... well, not that well taken.
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:

I challenge you to find any community of learned people among any other culture besides American blacks who willfully reject subjects which discuss the greatness of their ancestors...

Kai


And I challenge you to find another way of approaching this subject that doesn't concede to a Eurocentric paradigm.

"Greatness of their ancestors" in accordance to whose paradigm?

I also challenge you to engage people and not disengage for the sake of Getting Your Flow on. There is a legitimate issue (as well as a knee-jerk one) that's asking for the relevance of all this history stuff. You can't illustrate jack by talking about OTHER people. You call yourself trying to engage your own. But that seems to be too much of a problem because you got a line or two you've rehearsed or whatever your problem is.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Saracen:
One manifestation of our disease is our discomfort with any subject which seeks to elevate black people. Of course it is true that there are those who took the prescription of self knowledge, and abused it to the point where they do nothing but get high off of the past...This is real, however, this is most certainly not the norm...Most black people who become aware of black history extending beyond slavery learn a new apppreciation for blackness..This new appreciation is one phase of our therapy..

Okay..I am gonna cut this short...


Kai


I think talking about black people doing creative work now in the present elevates black people ... that coming to a mathematician and insisting that he overwhelm his subject with irrelevant detail is a distraction .. not an elevation ...

I think regarding history as the essential form of "self-knowledge" begs the question ...


What can you say about other indigenous peoples in the world that really don't have "great" (by western standards) empires in their history? Is the racist then correct about them?



Every math student has been taught the name Euclid, Pythagoras, Fibonacci, Archimedes, Newton etc...

Why did they need to know the names and history of these mathematicians? I would imagine that because the development of math theory was progressive, and by understanding how the theories were advanced, a student gathers a greater feel for the math itself.

A biproduct of such learning is also pride in the part a people havb played in the development of such an important science.

When you deny a people their historical role, you deny them part of what the history was designed to generate.

quote:
Especially since it's quite possible that few of us are direct descendants of any of the great African dynasties. Africa is after all a vast continent.


This is not how our people would think. They are not looking just at the contributions of someone in their family...That is how we think in America...Black people should think in larger terms...And then we would not see ourselves separate from our people.


Kai
Peace....


quote:
Well, that would be relevant if and only when "pride" is lacking or the balm for the ailment.


I would argue that a black person, especially a black child, is owed the opportunity to feel pride for the accomplishments of their people. Alone, pride cannot heal blacks..But it is a requisite ingredient in the mix of things which are needed.

quote:
I'll pull an MBM... WHY?



Because we were already somebody before slavery started. Black History is black history. The fact is that I have every right to feel pride for the accomplishments of the empire of Mali, Meroe, or Morrocco. My history did not start when my forefathers got off of some boat...



Kai
quote:
I would argue that a black person, especially a black child, is owed the opportunity to feel pride for the accomplishments of their people. Alone, pride cannot heal blacks..But it is a requisite ingredient in the mix of things which are needed.


Again, that's on the assumption that pride is lacking or missing or even the most immediate thing to be addressed or added to the healing recipe. Apparently you swung and missed insofar as HB is concerned.

Any good cook knows there are certain recipes where you don't just throw ingredients in whenever and however you want to in order for the cake to turn out right.

quote:
Because we were already somebody before slavery started.


That doesn't answer my simple question.

quote:
Black History is black history.


Neither does this. WHY is a question that seeks a purpose. WHY should Black folks think in those "so called" larger terms?

That we were "somebody" is not even a question. Even if my/our forefathers, our history started with that boat, that we are/were "somebody" is still not a question. Maybe you can figure out how that's problematic by engaging... HB posed an instructive question for you:

quote:
What can you say about other indigenous peoples in the world that really don't have "great" (by western standards) empires in their history? Is the racist then correct about them?


You failure to answer is indicative of CONCEPTUAL INCARCERATION. You're trapped into this mindset that it's the "great" history that makes us "somebody." I wonder then what's the function of your religion (if you're religious and believe in the Creator).

The history and, specifically, the material "accomplishments" in Black/African history don't vindicate Africans as "somebody". Our BEING, in and of itself, testifies to that daily. No amount of oppression, Slavery... whatever... nothing can ever question that... unless you truly are suffering. Unless you are CONCEPTUALLY if not physically oppressed.

quote:
The fact is that I have every right to feel pride for the accomplishments of the empire of Mali, Meroe, or Morrocco.


WHY should Black folks think in those terms?
For what reason and what purpose? What is that going to do? Why is that needed?

Again, this comes down to whether there is a need for such "pride" and, more importantly here, why that "pride" is "needed."

Ain't nothin'... not a single thing about the enslavement about my ancestors that ever makes me wonder whether I am somebody or come from a people who are "somebody." If there was no Africa before America for us, my ancestors, for the way they survived, struggled, fought, resisted and, yes, even they broke... they proved (without ever having to prove anything to anybody) they were "somebody."

The fact that there were Slave Patrols proved that they were "SOMEBODY", etc., etc., etc. So the issue in not about what you want and want to have a "right" to. It's about WHY that "should" be, why that is the sum total of what "pride" is based on this problematic idea you have about what makes us "somebody."

For some, maybe even all of us - up to a point (and that's a big thing here) - reconciling and making peace with our past is an issue. But quite a few of us done been there and done that. So talking to us about our history in a way that shows how you haven't quite reconciled some of those things or just can't engage us where we are... Well, that shows how there is a real disconnect.

Me, I'll claiming any and all of Africa too but I know why that's not necessary, at least as far as "pride" is concerned.


My history did not start when my forefathers got off of some boat...
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quote:
If we are to truly address the issue and seek healing, we must search within ourselves and create a map of the pathology.

We can't just learn our way out of what is best described as a collective mental illness.

One manifestation of our disease is our discomfort with any subject which seeks to elevate black people.


appl

And, I would argue that another manifestation of our disease is our discomfort in anyone commenting on anything but the most glowing assessment of our [the Black Community's] condition.

As with most disease, the cure is found in establishing balance.
quote:
Originally posted by umbrarchist:
quote:
I just luvs the way we diagnose anyone who disagrees with us as "diseased" ...

lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol


I have been presumed to be a good little Oreo Cookie Kneegrow by Black people so many times it's hardly funny.

But I have had a White man call me a revolutionary. lol

umbrarchist


Umbra, I have the same problem ... the little wannabe radicals will call me a dyed in the wool conservative ... and then the conservatives tell me I'm a revolutionary and a threat to civilization ...
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
As with most disease, the cure is found in establishing balance.


See what I'm talking about, HB?


Well, I certainly don't! Confused

Rarely can one find an issue where there is a clear right and wrong; or it would not be an issue. Rarely is there an argument that is 100% wrong or 100% right; or again, there would be no argument or debate.
quote:
Rarely can one find an issue where there is a clear right and wrong; or it would not be an issue. Rarely is there an argument that is 100% wrong or 100% right; or again, there would be no argument or debate.


First, what does that have to do with your Disease~Cure analogy. Secondly, WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Where is this 100% stuff coming from?
None of that stuff relates to anything I said so you simply can't be taking issue with something I've said. That is unless you can quote me forwarding a position that says there is a 100% right and 100% wrong position.

You simply can't do that and don't have a basis for your comments. Well, not to direct them towards me.

Look over this thread, KWELI. Scan it. Do a 12-point examination. Whatever. Even use your imagination. No matter what you do, you will not find the basis for making the remarks you have and hardly anything that would have you say you don't understand... when, obviously, you haven't looked at what HB and I have talked about.

But go ahead, highlight the post(s)/passage of our (me & HB) exchange here that give credance to your 100% comments.

quote:
Quite a few members of our SILENT MAJORITY (lol) and a number of half-in-the-closet Black Conservatives are quick to try to gain instant legitimacy with that "we don't all think alike" jargon, wanting to suggest that everybody's views are equally valid as if this is kindergarten on Barney day.


Now that was said with you in mind (amongst others). That's rather easy and clear to understand and see how your "Cure" analogy in little more than an extension of that mindlessness.

Now let's see you find the grounding for your 100% comments. I have solid grounds for mine:

quote:
All I'm suggesting is that Cosby's observations are as valid as anyone's.
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