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As I said, OWN YOUR BIAS...

All this Mickey Mousing, fake starting pretense about things being "interesting" and look at you...

C'mon can't you maintain your pretense?
Obviously not.

Now, make up your mind.
Am I saying something that's practical (in power terms, etc.) or am I not?

You presented the quandry yourself.
You talk about this "nebulous" notion of what's "productive" but you contradicted that with your own masturbation when you consider whether all the incremental bits... if they would ever amount to whatever you presume to be the whole.

So yes! We can all define what that freedom is. But it's implicit in everything said.

So, again, make up your mind. Am I talking in "practical" terms or not?

And please... if you're going to try the impartial observer-commenter thingy again... please don't break character.

"I'm in a better position (now)..."

Relative BS that I already talked about.
Great freakin' accomplishment... By the time we're all green we'll get to square one, practically. PERIOD!!

Oh... and my definition of FREEDOM/LIBERATION...
What Malcolm X defined as the Economics and Politics of Black Nationalism. CONTROL. I'll even modify it to primary controlling influence.

Now, figure out which character you want to dress up as, MBM. And let's talk things "practical". Let's talk about what your illogical "working within the system" is going to do from here on out.

That represents your misleading misreading of our history and struggle.

Working within the system is akin to celebrating Manumission at the expense of being an ardent Abolitionist.

C'mon, figure out what you want to be on Dress Up Day (all day, everyday) then holla at your boy.
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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I say the matter just needs a little tweeking and fine tuning to become a workable solution. You know ... a little of this ... and a little of that ... Smile
Ebony, in my never-ending quest to contradict you Wink I have to say (quote) this:

_"For years I labored with the idea of reforming the existing institutions of the society, a little change here, a little change there. Now I feel quite differently. I think you've got to have a reconstruction of the entire society, a revolution of values." - MLK_

Could you tell me what exactly can be merely tweeked and fine tuned to make this workable solution?


Hmmm ... gee, Nmaginate, I dunno .... I really wasn't thinking or speaking in specific terms about anything in particular, so I don't have a definite "plan of action" in mind. Roll Eyes I guess just off the top of my head, though, something along the lines of pushing toward the doctrine of "separate but equal" would be good for me, as I am a big fan of such a proposal. Maybe something legistatively, whereby instead of lobbying for everything to be the same, we strive for being better able to control whatever resources are alloted us for us to do with them what we know best needs to be done.

Again, as far as specifics, I have none. I never really thought about it! However, I will, and if something hits me, I'll let you know!

And as far as MLK's quote above ... personally, I think he should have followed the teachings of my Ma and Pa and followed his first mind ... Smile Perhaps things would have worked out better than they have. Changing horses in the middle of a stream can get you drowned! winkgrin
quote:
Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
That's a bunch of bull and you know it.


Iceman,

Do you think blacks are intellectually and genetically inferior to whites? What do you think is ultimately responsible for some of the poor behaviors and mild to severe learning disabilities (LD) of blacks? If blacks did NOT demonstrate any of the characteristics that you attribute to their inferiority, would you then believe that blacks are equal to whites? In other words, if blacks would display behaviors and thought processes that are more "European-like" and are commensurate with the learning styles of America's white majority, would you treat blacks differently and view blacks as your equal? Your honest answers to these questions will determine if my theory is "bull." That is, if you possess enough courage to truthfully answer them.
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Nmag - you want me to break character, cool.

This is a perfect example of you being extraordinarily shallow. You like to attack, but when it's time FOR YOU to put up or shut up regarding your own arguments, all you can do is whine. I ask pages of questions which you routinely ignore. Why? Probably because you've never thought about your ethereal ideas long enough to ever consider them. You fixate on romantic concepts without thinking step one of how to implement/accomplish them. WTF is so complex about defining the words which you seem to be so attached to? Control? Again, WTF does that mean? Who is in control? What defines that control? You are more interested in arguing than in thinking through your arguments to come up with a half-way cogent thesis with definitions that reasonable people can discuss and debate.

You are so tired! downT



quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

As I said, OWN YOUR BIAS...


I do. My bias is to reality, reason, cogent thinking, rational arguments, and intelligence. Yours?

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Now, make up your mind.
Am I saying something that's practical (in power terms, etc.) or am I not?


You're not saying anything. You are doing your absolute best to wiggle around without saying a GD thing. Roll Eyes

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So yes! We can all define what that freedom is. But it's implicit in everything said.


Weak. Come correct Nmag. I thought you were better than that. Be a big boy - stick your neck out just a bit. What do YOU stand for? What do YOU believe? Anything?

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Relative BS that I already talked about.
Great freakin' accomplishment... By the time we're all green we'll get to square one, practically. PERIOD!!


You asked a dumb question and I guess are embarrassed by it now. You're full of shit. Own that bias.

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Oh... and my definition of FREEDOM/LIBERATION...
What Malcolm X defined as the Economics and Politics of Black Nationalism. CONTROL. I'll even modify it to primary controlling influence.


"Primary controlling influence" - WTF does that mean? The only thing that we have "primary controlling influence" over is ourselves. The government tells us how fast to drive, how much taxes to pay, who we can marry, who can vote, who can work in some professions, etc., etc., etc. CAN YOU, JUST FOR ONE MOMENT, SUSPEND THIS BULLSHIT THEORETICAL MUSING AND SPEAK TO REALITY? Are you intellectually capable of doing that? And don't quote MX or anyone. Tell me what YOU think? Do YOU have an original thought anywhere in there?

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Now, figure out which character you want to dress up as, MBM. And let's talk things "practical". Let's talk about what your illogical "working within the system" is going to do from here on out.


I've asked you many many times to define your vision of "freedom". You allude to some nationalistic, separatist concept - but of course you've contradicted that with your reference to the MX quote below:

We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society.


Do you hold any consistent or cogent thoughts? Is your intention merely to stir things up without contributing not one idea or proposal that others can sink their teeth into and consider. Have you taken the five minutes required to wonder just a bit beyond the superficial words that you regurgitate in Pavlovian style?

I thought you were better than that.

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That represents your misleading misreading of our history and struggle.


And this represents your persistent attempt to obfuscate and meddle without contributing a damned thought to anything.

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Working within the system is akin to celebrating Manumission at the expense of being an ardent Abolitionist.


Fine - can you articulate an opposing vision without reverting to BS ethereal descriptors like "mechanisms" and "vehicles"? Can you sketch out a half-way practical road to getting to wherever the hell you want to go? Can you articulate some basic thoughts about how that place would exist and interact with the world? Until you can speak with intelligence and clarity, all you're doing is pissing in the wind.

We don't need anymore Don Quixotes.
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quote:
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Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
That's a bunch of bull and you know it.
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Iceman,

"Do you think blacks are intellectually and genetically inferior to whites? What do you think is ultimately responsible for some of the poor behaviors and mild to severe learning disabilities (LD) of blacks? If blacks did NOT demonstrate any of the characteristics that you attribute to their inferiority, would you then believe that blacks are equal to whites? In other words, if blacks would display behaviors and thought processes that are more "European-like" and are commensurate with the learning styles of America's white majority, would you treat blacks differently and view blacks as your equal? Your honest answers to these questions will determine if my theory is "bull." That is, if you possess enough courage to truthfully answer them."

____________________________________________

Rowe, why are you wasting your time trying to reason with a sign post?

_____________________________________________________________
what mild to severe leaning diabilities (LD) of blacks that is not also found in whites and any other group?
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African Americans DO display behaviors and thought process that are more "European-Like" and commensurate with the leaning styles of America's white majority----that is why African America is in so much trouble right now . . . those behaviors and the diplays of European American behaviors and actions are exactly what African Americans are copying and emmulating and are the reason for a lot of the problems that African Americans are suffering in this country, i.e., materialism, greed, hate, ignorance, evil, drug use, drug trafficking, indifference, diet, -----copied by African Americans from white Americans. . .and some of the major causes of a lot of problems the Black families and communities throughout America today.
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Who cares how a racist would treat Blacks?-----no matter what, a racist will be a racist regardless.
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Also, the majority of America's racists do not actually believe all of the racist stero-types they propagandize about Black people, however, their propagandizing is intended for others to believe the lies and mythology about Blacks, African, African Americans, etc.; it is only part of the psych game being played on the minds of Americans and other peoples through the world----after a while they began to look like the unprovoked psychopaths that they really are/sadist sociopaths and psychopaths hiding behind fabricated racist tales and mythology to justify their psychotic behavior, therefore, they have to fabricate "evidence" make the illusions that they live in seem validated.
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For the last time AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER AMERICANS (WHICH IS A MAJOR PART OF OUR PROBLEMS); AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE OF THE SAME AMERICAN CULTURE AS ANY OTHER AMERICANS---DO THE SAME THINGS----LIVE THE SAME WAYS----EAT THE SAME FOODS-----INDULGE IN THE SAME BEHAVIORS----REACT IN THE SAME/SIMILAR WAYS UNDER THE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES----(HAIR BRAIDING AND DANCING DO NOT COUNT---INSIGNIFICANT).
Where are the pages of questions you directed toward me MBM? Pages that differ from the pages you wiggle from?

Tell me where are those pages of questions you asked me here?

What does "I'm practical" mean when the best you can figure is that "White People won't allow that... So we may have to wait until we're all green!"

Having control over our politics and economics on the MACRO as well as the micro level is pretty clear English, MBM.

All this time you've still yet to describe something outside of a Neo-Manumission Mission. Do what the White folks let you, I guess...

If you want a real convo... then don't come with a fake pretense MBM. You bad... WTF you hiding for?
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Where are the pages of questions you directed toward me MBM?


So now a brotha needs to be spoon fed??? Confused

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If we are to seek equality (in the broadest definition of the word) can we reasonably do that without more fully integrating ourselves in this society?


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How will we know when we are recognized as "free humans" here?


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Isn't implicit in this concept the notion that society - i.e. America - i.e. white folks - must consider us as "free humans"?


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If part of racism comes from the white majority just fundamentally not knowing us, not understanding us etc. - then it would seem like greater interaction would be one of the only ways to achieve that objective (being considered "free humans" in America).

This raises the serious question of whether that will ever happen in this society. Will the white majority ever look at _any_ people of color as true peers?


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Will they ever cede their dominion over their society?


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In other threads we talked about the extraordinary insecurity of white folks. They conquer and exploit for tangible gain, but discriminate and hate to fulfill some Neanderthal psychological need to feel superior - better than others. With that as context, can we ever expect to be completely and absolutely "free" in theoir world?


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With regard to separatism, I guess the question comes to mind, will WE believe we are equal and free under a separatist context?


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Juxtaposed against the backdrop of current America, would we consider ourselves "free humans" if we somehow got our land somewhere?


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We would be redefining and restructuring society to our benefit, but would our concept of freedom be at all impacted by global influences?


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Would we be "free humans" in our own land even if we were still niggers to the rest of the world?


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How broadly are we defining "society" - global or national or state or community or neighborhood?


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I guess the final question that comes to mind (which I think is where Nmaginate is coming from), is what will it take for us to consider ourselves "free"?


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Could we consider ourselves "free humans" even while others do not?


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Even if others do not, what impact would our believing in our innate value and freedom have on our existence in a patently unfair and unfree world?



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I guess it raises the additional question of whether being a "free human" is really an ultimate and appropriate objective? This argument would seem to suggest that there are things that we should not be willing to do to become "free".


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Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

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Could we consider ourselves "free humans" even while others do not?


While this question is a little awkward in the Too Abstract sense (i.e. removed from the central issue), my answer is that it doesn't matter in that respect what others think.

If we determine and construct the appropriate vehicles whereby we consider ourselves "free", vehicles that ASSERT and, inherently, recognize our human right to be self-determining people... vehicles that actually result in that freedom of self-determination then what other people think is meaningless.


Your comments beg the question of who and how freedom will be defined. By us? By our relationship to the broader society?




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Again, we live in a world which, for the most part, is defined by others' values and objectives. Is our freedom a function of some self-defined criteria, or is it defined by existing on par with the rights and privileges that the majority enjoys?


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Even if we build our own vehicles to liberation, if we live within a society that does not also respect those vehicles, that doesn't respect us, then what is there real value?


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Respectfully, in concept, one can discuss "vehicles" and "free human beings" - but what do those things mean?




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In application, freedom is a relative concept that is determined by perception. There won't be a glass ball that will fall to mark our arrival. We either gauge our condition based upon our relationship to those who currently enjoy the greatest degree of freedom in society, or we create a proprietary standard to determine our condition. Either way, perception is at the core. I have merely asked the question who determines when we are free?


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Who defines free? What defines free?


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If the standard of freedom established by society does not define our condition then, to a certain degree, we can just decide to be free whenever we get the resolve to do so. If there is no connection to broader society then what, in your opinion, has to occur for us to be free?


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How will we know that we are free if we don't look to society to help set the standard?


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If our freedom is not predicated upon the broader set of freedoms established by American society, that's cool, but what's the standard, who establishes it, and how do we determine when we've "arrived"?


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If we determine and construct the appropriate vehicles whereby we consider ourselves "free", vehicles that ASSERT and, inherently, recognize our human right to be self-determining people... vehicles that actually result in that freedom of self-determination then what other people think is meaningless.


Vehicles? Please suggest a few to put this in some sort of context.


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Since you seem to be defining freedom (appropriately so) in a different context, it would seem that you have no choice but to consider how your concept of freedom interacts with the world. Sure, we can believe something, but isn't the true test of those beliefs when we have to, in some way, justify it or prove it to others?


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In my head I can believe that I am 100% free, but isn't the true test of my freedom when I try to express that freedom in some way?


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We live in a world that is getting increasingly smaller. Is it really reasonable to expect an isolated body (country, community, etc.) to be able to live completely without interaction with others outside of that body?


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Won't true freedom only be reflected when others value that freedom in their interaction with us?


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If and when we are practicing freedom and have the mechanism by which to full exercise that freedom then of what use are the opinions of others?


What "freedom" are you referring to? National freedom? Personal freedom?


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Under this definition, who is free? Is the United States of America "free"? If you and I aren't free, yet we are Americans, is the US of A really free?


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Again, it seems that you speak of an internal condition more than anything else. Your analogy suggests a national parity that seems impractical. Is Canada free? Can they do what they want without regard to the world community? Is China free? They are the largest country in the world and have zealously guarded their own sense of Chinese nationalism and "freedom", but are they really free? Are the people free? Each family can, by law, only have one child per family. Is that freedom?


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I'm still looking for your definition. Our world is predicated upon interdependence. In practical terms, how do we establish our freedom without also needing to impress upon others the fact that we are free?


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Our goal, IMO, is not to eliminate most or all racism in the minds/hearts of White people. Our goal is to eradicate the effects that White racism has on us.


Interesting. One could read this and say that you're just telling us to get thicker skins. Please articulate your vision of how, in America, we could achieve this. Whites can remain racist, but we develop the independent means to flourish despite that. I'm not arguing with you, I'd just like some practical thoughts about what this looks like.


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Which is more important to you, inoculating yourself from white racism or being free?


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So, you envision creating an entirely separate economy etc.?


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If the world is trading with the rest of the world, how will this enclave work solely within itself?


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If there's racism and discrimination and exploitation that occurs between sovereign nations (just ask Oshun Auset!) then how will this nationalist "island" prevent itself from also experiencing it?


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What corner of the earth has been able to keep white racism from seeping in? How will we shield ourselves from it?


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Originally posted by MBM:
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Originally posted by Nmaginate:

But seriously, how FREE is the FREEDOM you speak to if you define it and limit it to something that you presume will not draw the ire of the Iraq like sovereignty takers?


It has nothing to do with "ire" and everything to do with defining freedom. Is freedom enjoying the same rights and privileges of society that the person/group with the greatest freedoms has - or - some independent measure?



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DEFINE FREEDOM. How can anyone expect to achieve a goal unless it is clearly articulated? Unless I've missed it, I have yet to see your definition of an independent freedom not bound by society or global interdependence.


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Originally posted by MBM:
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Originally posted by Nmaginate:

Please detail the incremental changes that "working within the system" gaurantees... incremental changes that will eventually... someday... sometime... add up to the ulimate acquisition of said goal.


Nothing is guaranteed. We're talking about paths that will lead most productively to progress. Are you offering a guaranteed strategy?


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Be a big boy - stick your neck out just a bit. What do YOU stand for? What do YOU believe? Anything?


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"Primary controlling influence" - WTF does that mean?


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CAN YOU, JUST FOR ONE MOMENT, SUSPEND THIS BULLSHIT THEORETICAL MUSING AND SPEAK TO REALITY? Are you intellectually capable of doing that? And don't quote MX or anyone. Tell me what YOU think? Do YOU have an original thought anywhere in there?


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I've asked you many many times to define your vision of "freedom". You allude to some nationalistic, separatist concept - but of course you've contradicted that with your reference to the MX quote below:

We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society.


Do you hold any consistent or cogent thoughts? Is your intention merely to stir things up without contributing not one idea or proposal that others can sink their teeth into and consider?


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Have you taken the five minutes required to wonder just a bit beyond the superficial words that you regurgitate in Pavlovian style?


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Fine - can you articulate an opposing vision without reverting to BS ethereal descriptors like "mechanisms" and "vehicles"?


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Can you sketch out a half-way practical road to getting to wherever the hell you want to go?


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Can you articulate some basic thoughts about how that place would exist and interact with the world?

I await your answers to my questions above.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:

All this time you've still yet to describe something outside of a Neo-Manumission Mission. Do what the White folks let you, I guess...



Here's a shot at a prescription for us. I posted it 2 1/2 years ago. I eagerly await your plan Nmaginate.

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Originally posted by MBM:

It is far too simplistic to seek any single, most, important issue for the complex task of uplifting the black community. It's like asking "what is the most important organ in your body?" Your brain? Heart? Lungs? Well, obviously, you can't live without any of them. Each plays a critical role in the over-all health and function of the body. They all are linked together, dependent upon each other for their proper functioning, and for the holistic health of their host. They each are quite indispensable to life.

For the African American community; education, economic opportunity, and health would seem to play similar, vital, roles. In addition, the over-all environment in America (both internal and external to our community) is a key driver as well. I've created an equation to describe the relationships involved in our community's over-all health.

Δ Black Community = ƒ .25Societal Context { .20Health (.30Education * .25Economic Opportunity )

Essentially what this says is that our over-all community's growth is primarily dependent upon four critical factors.


  • Societal Context: This describes the over-all climate that we live in. It is driven, on the one hand, by reductions in racism, discrimination, etc. from outside our community. It speaks to how high the "glass ceiling" is throughout all corners of America. On the other hand, it acknowledges our own role in our growth by incorporating our effectiveness in making things happen for ourselves. It asks some important questions of us: How aggressive and effective are we in fighting for our own rights and opportunity? Are our leaders "getting the job done"? It also speaks to some of the more sensitive internal issues that we face. These include our ability to get beyond issues of self-hate, and "bottom of the barrelitis". It includes some of the hugely destructive, but extraordinarily petty and superficial, things that divide black people like color, class, hair, and of course the all important, being "black enough" issue.

  • Health: This is not only our access to quality health care, but also includes advances in our understanding about what it means to be healthy. It involves growth in understanding about diet, exercise, contraception, and other habits of healthy living.

  • Education: This first speaks to the growth of our personal productive capacity. It focuses on the acquisition of skills that empower our personal economic growth. Whether this be in the form of an advanced or professional education, or a high school technical degree, it targets the development of real skills that will enable success in our competitive marketplace. This is at whatever level that is appropriate for the individual. It also includes access to information and learning that is necessary to generally "move forward". This includes information about investing our money, starting businesses, tax, insurance matters etc. It's about "how to get things done" in this country.

  • Economic Opportunity: This is where advances in all of the other variables bear sweet fruit. It is access to fulfilling jobs at appropriate wages. It includes entrepreneurial opportunity - our ability to start our own businesses, employing our own people. It also includes African Americans advancing throughout all facets of American professional life - becoming Fortune 500 leaders, physicians, college presidents, business owners, etc. Most importantly, it tracks wealth creation through the establishment of home equity in the black community.


As you see, I have also expressed this equation as a weighted average showing my sense of the relative weights of the variables. Education is the most important at 30%. Societal Context and Economic Opportunity carry equal weight at 25%. Health is 20% This is not meant to understate the importance of health to us. It merely suggests that with advancements in education and economic standing, health generally becomes easier to acquire and maintain.

Somewhere in the last few posts between you two (Nmag & MBM), I finally seem to have a grasp on what is being discussed. For some reason, I was having a hard time following up until now.

MBM, I have a question for you: what do you think Delta SHOULD come to? In other words, is there an optimum value, or a minimum satisfactory value, you figure the equation should equal? Can there be? Whatever you're arguing "liberation" is, I would say liberation = the moment when our community has reached that level.

I guess that's just a mathematic, abstract way of asking what YOUR definition of freedom/liberation is. If you can articulate that, I would then like to try to compare & contrast that view of liberation/freedom with Nmaginate's.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

MBM, I have a question for you: what do you think Delta SHOULD come to? In other words, is there an optimum value, or a minimum satisfactory value, you figure the equation should equal?


The ultimate end point, I think, can be defined in a number of different ways, but ultimately it is not a static point. While the first vantage point of freedom/liberation would be to arrive at the place where we enjoy the same rights and privileges as anyone else in American society, I see that as only a starting place. Having every opportunity and door open to us in this nation is a goal that is about access. Although some may somehow see acquiescence in that, I do not. I do not look to whites for approval, but since, for the most part, they define the parameters of society, they set the bar in terms of what we currently strive for. To be clear, it shouldn't at all limit our growth. Certainly I believe that we can do even better. But, since we have yet to reach parity, that would seem to be an appropriate benchmark to strive for.

Honestly, I'm not sure what is confusing or controversial about that point. I respect efforts toward self determination via a separatist or nationalistic effort. In the final analysis, though, I believe that our best opportunity to make positive improvements to black folks lives today can be attained through working within the system to enhance our position. While Nmaginate rejects the notion that we are any better than our shackled ancestors in the hold of a slave ship, I do not share that view. In fact, thinking about our condition in absolutes that way is defeatist, counter-productive, and backward. An "all or nothing" approach merely guts any sense of collective esteem or standing and does not serve our community. Beyond that, it's just plain wrong.

I believe that there may be different paths to liberation for different people within our community. Those who want to pursue a revolutionary separatist agenda (led by Oshun Auset no doubt) to either return permanently to Africa or secure our own sovereign land somewhere in the United States should go for it. The fact that there are other black folks who disagree with that path should in no way deter them. In fact, as I've said, they might gather considerably greater popular support if they could articulate a compelling vision/path to achieve their objectives. Nmaginate can allude to the objectives, but apparently not the path to get there. While that path is being developed, should we just sit on our hands and continue to suffer as a community? Does that make any sense when there are things that we can do to put food on people's plates today, that can clothe and house and care for and educate people today? Furthermore, what happens if we strive for nationalism and then, God forbid, fail? We've deferred attention from solving problems today for a goal that may or may not occur. Don't we owe those who need our help in our community to address their needs today? Focusing on delivering "tomorrow" does not have to be at the exclusion of today.

The concept of liberation and freedom are not absolutes. As I mentioned to Nmaginate, those who get the closest to a state of true freedom are probably those who achieve spiritual enlightenment in the way that Buddhists talk about it. If one is of this world, then they will be dependent upon this world in ways that, by definition, retard freedom. That said, the freedom that we discuss is relative and must be defined in an effort to both most effectively strive toward it, as well as to better understand it when we see it. You know a group of former slaves went back to Africa and, with the US government's help, created Liberia. All these years later, are they "free"? Maybe. Maybe they are just enslaved and encumbered by different things than we are. That's why I say it is so important to ground this discussion rather than just live in the ether and muse about nebulousness.
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MBM,

Seriously... What is particularly "original", non-abstract or specific about your articulation - aka Plan?

Everything as to HOW YOU DO THAT is particularly vague. And even, I (much to your chagrin), have no criticism of it because I know where you're coming from regardless of your lack of specifics.

What you did, in actuality, was list important issues and prioritized them is some way but you did not lay out a specific plan in terms of how to acquire those things. Perhaps that was due to the obvious limits to the question you were addressing. Nevertheless, I can accept that as you view of what's important, as you say (and as it is) a description of CRITICAL FACTORS.

MBM, there is no disagreement on what those factors are. The differences we have here and continue to have is not over identifying those factors.

All of that stuff is a GIVEN. Completely understood. I been said DO YOUR THANG to all that. VOX can attest to that (if he remembers).

As for:
Focusing on delivering "tomorrow" does not have to be at the exclusion of today.

I haven't excluded anything. My whole point is to focus on "tomorrow" but you're caught on "today" (something I really don't contend with) because I question the working ideas of your tomorrow.

But I guess this is proof that my views are exclusionary:
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Does it mean that nothing good can come out of taking that attitude? No.

Does it mean that we will continue to revisit these same questions? Yes!

So, obviously, I've tried to focus on "tomorrow" while showing no dissing disregard for "today".

I do apologize for not following your posts closely. I apparently responded to them out of order as I mistakenly viewed them out of order... So, regrettably and admittedly, some of my responses my have been off because of that.

But as for spoon feeding me and things you supposedly asked or addressed directly to me... Silly me but I took this as you talking more generally (to anyone) than you talking to me, specifically:
quote:
I guess the final question that comes to mind ***(which I think is where Nmaginate is coming from)***, is what will it take for us to consider ourselves "free"? Perhaps we have to get to that psychological place even before we can consider more external aspirations of freedom. Could we consider ourselves "free humans" even while others do not? Even if others do not, what impact would our believing in our innate value and freedom have on our existence in a patently unfair and unfree world?
Okay... If that and everything else you wrote (particularly in that post) was directed at me then... OKAY! My bad. Roll Eyes
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Originally posted by KEYNOTE:
Be advised this site like any other is a privilage not a right. Tread softly or get axed.



Yo! Who the hell are you to be threatening me with expulsion? All my messages are vetted by the webmaster before being posted. So, screw you! Mad

Perhaps you should learn to spell "privilege" before threatening to take away mine.
quote:
Originally posted by sunnubian:
What mild to severe leaning diabilities (LD) of blacks that is not also found in whites and any other group?


There are a disproportionate number of African American youth, particularly African American urban youth, placed in Special Education classes, where they are diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) and Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). It is also no secrect that African American students consistently lag behind in terms of academic performance and passing Standardized Tests (SAT, GRE, MAT) compared to other groups of children. No one has yet to discover the "magic solution" that will ultimately pull these scores up and keep them up. It continues to be a problem. Studies have long since proven that many of the academic and social problems that plague African American youth are directly related to their socio-economic backgrounds, the teacher's low expectations, and the cultural discontinuity that exist between African American minority and the majority (i.e., Ebonics vs. the "Proper English" spoken by the average white person).

quote:
For the last time AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER AMERICANS.


This is incorrect. African Americans have a completely different history compared with other Americans who voluntarily arrive to this country. Collectively, African Americans are treated much differently than other Americans in this country. Consequently, we develop social as well as psychological problems, which include taking out our frustrations and anger about our experiences on one another. If you need evidence of this, watch the annual Source Awards.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
While Nmaginate rejects the notion that we are any better than our shackled ancestors in the hold of a slave ship, I do not share that view. In fact, thinking about our condition in absolutes that way is defeatist, counter-productive, and backward. An "all or nothing" approach merely guts any sense of collective esteem or standing and does not serve our community. I believe that there may be different paths to liberation for different people within our community.


I totally agree with this statement.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Mr. Souse, I'm still waiting for you to prove my theory is bull...


And you will be still wainting.

This dude just tries to 'push buttons'. He pickded a date which he contended ezemplified the economic independence of America from the slave trade.

I gave him examples of why he was wrong and suggested he offer another date.

I'm still waiting.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by James Wesley
This dude just tries to 'push buttons'.


Well of course I knew this ahead of time. One of the advantages of the Internet is that whites, particularly those who have a bone to pick, can maintain anonymity while "telling blacks off" in the ways that they never could outside of the Internet. What they don't realize however is that some blacks are awaiting their arrival because we certainly have a bone to pick as well. upset
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

Well of course I knew this ahead of time. One of the advantages of the Internet is that whites, particularly those who have a bone to pick, can maintain anonymity while "telling blacks off" in the ways that they never could outside of the Internet. What they don't realize however is that some blacks are awaiting their arrival because we certainly have a bone to pick as well. upset

Another advantage of the Internet is blowhard blacks like you can shoot off at the mouth and diss whitey and make up BS with complete anonymity, in ways you never could before.

Thank god a black man invented the Internet! Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Mr. Souse, I'm still waiting for you to prove my theory is bull...

What do you want me to "prove"? Upon re-reading, I still can't figure out what your theory is. All I stated, in other words, was that the so-called "people of color" of Asia and the Pacific have far less in common with Africans than they do with Europeans. I base that on my 22+ years of living in Asia/Pacific - including a two-year stint as a Peace Corps volunteer - and my empirical observations during that period. In fact, most people in Asia and the Pacific do believe they are equal to whites in every respect. They don't labor under a chronic inferiority complex as many African-Americans do.
a chronic inferiority complex is what makes whites racist...and at the same time tan, put on padded butt underwear and get their lips injected so they can be full......hatred and envy is really admiration in disguise...and any sonofabitch who tries to make any ailement outside of sickle cell exclusive to blacks is just carrying forth the same shit for brain mentality their inbred, sister-humping azz ancestors did....
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
a chronic inferiority complex is what makes whites racist...and at the same time tan, put on padded butt underwear and get their lips injected so they can be full......hatred and envy is really admiration in disguise...and any sonofabitch who tries to make any ailement outside of sickle cell exclusive to blacks is just carrying forth the same shit for brain mentality their inbred, sister-humping azz ancestors did....

Man... such erudite words of wisdom from a college professor. (We know you're a college professor because you rarely ever fail to mention the great academic pinnacles you've reached compared to the rest of us low-lifes).

Actually, I've never met a white person who goes to tanning salons, wears padded underwear or had his/her lips injected. I guess whites supposedly do all this (in the black mind, anyway) so they can look like superior black folks like Kevin41.

As for the the "inbred, sister-humping ancestors" drivel, this one doesn't even deserve a reply. Just the same old put downs of whites that negroes use to boost their self-esteem.

So, carry on your love affair with your sense of self-importance, "professor." Perhaps, one day you'll find the real truth: Most whites are too busy living their own lives to give a damn what black people do.
I don't give a shit what you have seen.....check and see how those industries flourish.....particularly where "your finest" live.....so obviously you are in one of those red states where a woman and a cow can be confused for each other and do not know nothing about what I am referring to....so all that additional BS you are talking about what I am and how important I think I am....I will just ignore it all because facts are facts...and you can best believe that many blacks do not give a flying f-k about whites either...but yet you have your azz in here trying to satisfy something you feel that is lacking about yourself....talk about boosting self-esteem by putting down others...maybe you need to re-examine your lineage from 1950 back and re-live the f-ked up history of this sad azz country that is now being led by a moron........your people invented racism, bigotry and everything else...and handed it down.....not mine.......
quote:
So, carry on your love affair with your sense of self-importance, "professor." Perhaps, one day you'll find the real truth: Most whites are too busy living their own lives to give a damn what black people do.
Damn... It looks like you schedule has been clear for quite some time.

You must not figure into that "Most Whites Having A Life" figure... Not that busy at all, huh? Eggie?

Hmmmm... You obviously are rather concern being here. Also, it appears that you don't... you know... represent or portray the *REAL TRUTH* because you bother to come here.
(Real Truth as in you know the BS you try to present equals a REAL LIE and, again, you don't fit that very description you offered about "MOST WHITES WITH A LIFE")

So thanks for the clues into what drives your dysfunctional presence here.
But, since we have yet to reach parity, that would seem to be an appropriate benchmark to strive for.---MBM

Thank you.

I don't want to 'jump into' this dialog. That could be a distraction.

I do,however, try to take every opportunity to note when someone else makes my point.

Parity is indeed the societal standard we are being denied.

And...as you know, I contend and that parity BEGINS with identity in the manner of all other Americans.

Ancestral nationality.


PEACE

Jim Chester
quote:
Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
a chronic inferiority complex is what makes whites racist...and at the same time tan, put on padded butt underwear and get their lips injected so they can be full......hatred and envy is really admiration in disguise...and any sonofabitch who tries to make any ailement outside of sickle cell exclusive to blacks is just carrying forth the same shit for brain mentality their inbred, sister-humping azz ancestors did....

Man... such erudite words of wisdom from a college professor. (We know you're a college professor because you rarely ever fail to mention the great academic pinnacles you've reached compared to the rest of us low-lifes).

Actually, I've never met a white person who goes to tanning salons, wears padded underwear or had his/her lips injected. I guess whites supposedly do all this (in the black mind, anyway) so they can look like superior black folks like Kevin41.

As for the the "inbred, sister-humping ancestors" drivel, this one doesn't even deserve a reply. Just the same old put downs of whites that negroes use to boost their self-esteem.

So, carry on your love affair with your sense of self-importance, "professor." Perhaps, one day you'll find the real truth: Most whites are too busy living their own lives to give a damn what black people do.


Does Egbertsouse mean you're like the fake saxon "king" of pickled pork? Or just the king of pickled shit in general? It sure seems like you are trying to preserve some shit that's real old and real tired. "White" people aint nothing to be equal to. "White" people don't all move in lock step like nazis. You sound young and not to bright. Grow up and try to explore some real life. Why don't you try to establish a "Corp of Peace" in yourself? Stop posting this bullshit and go outside and meet new people.
quote:
Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
...compared to the rest of us low-lifes).


Speak for yourself...

quote:
As for the the "inbred, sister-humping ancestors" drivel, this one doesn't even deserve a reply...


And yet you reply anyway...

quote:
...Most whites are too busy living their own lives to give a damn what black people do.


If that were true, you would not be here...

E. Souse, it seems as though you are all wet, just as your name suggests - come back when you are sober.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by sunnubian:
What mild to severe leaning diabilities (LD) of blacks that is not also found in whites and any other group?


There are a disproportionate number of African American youth, particularly African American urban youth, placed in Special Education classes, where they are diagnosed with Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) and Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD). It is also no secrect that African American students consistently lag behind in terms of academic performance and passing Standardized Tests (SAT, GRE, MAT) compared to other groups of children. No one has yet to discover the "magic solution" that will ultimately pull these scores up and keep them up. It continues to be a problem. Studies have long since proven that many of the academic and social problems that plague African American youth are directly related to their socio-economic backgrounds, the teacher's low expectations, and the cultural discontinuity that exist between African American minority and the majority (i.e., Ebonics vs. the "Proper English" spoken by the average white person).
______________________________________________________________________

African American children being wrongly labeled in our public school systems is no proof that there exists any more LD, etc., in African American children than any other group. So, I really don't know what racial "tracking" (academic tuskeegee tactics) have to do what I said? If these labels were correct in all cases, that would be another matter, however, in most cases they are incorrect and racially and class motivated, and further still, are done more so for the school to receive the academic standing that it wants to flex, than because it is accurate/correct.

________________________________________________

quote:
For the last time AFRICAN AMERICANS ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN ANY OTHER AMERICANS.


This is incorrect. African Americans have a completely different history compared with other Americans who voluntarily arrive to this country. Collectively, African Americans are treated much differently than other Americans in this country. Consequently, we develop social as well as psychological problems, which include taking out our frustrations and anger about our experiences on one another. If you need evidence of this, watch the annual Source Awards.

______________________________________________________

In this instance I am correct, and so are you, however, it appears that we are talking about two different things. Our historical suffering at the hands of racist and opportunist whites and institutionalized racism is a different subject than what we are doing now, how we chose to live our lives in this country---which, they way I see it, the majority of us have chosen to mimick/copy whites' customs, culture, habits, deviant behaviors, and attitudes, therefore, African Americans are no different than any other Americans, at least if you are realistic enough to acknowledge that the same negative things that African Americans engage in, suffer from, etc., are also suffered from, engaged in by white Americans as well, and that it is only talked about, pointed out, condemed, politicized and demonized when that same problems, behaviors, deviance is that of a Black person, particularly, a Black person in America---and doubly so, if the Black person happens to not be rich or wealthy.
"Actually, I've never met a white person who goes to tanning salons, wears padded underwear or had his/her lips injected. I guess whites supposedly do all this (in the black mind, anyway) so they can look like superior black folks like Kevin41."

You seriously have to be kidding or else just came out of a cave. I live in rural Oregon and have met white people who go to tanning salons, I live in a town with less then 20,000 people and there are two tanning salons in this town. As having lips injected, once again you need to get out more, there have been numerous stories reported on TV and the print media.

While I don't know the exact mindset of a person who climbs into a machine so that they can unnaturally darken their skin, it does seem abit odd that one would demonize people of color and then take the chance of getting skin cancer by trying to be dark themselves. I suppose in a rather pathetic way, someone could reasonably justified that way of thinking.

Oh and case you didn't hear, there is now a spray on tan that people can get.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
You seriously have to be kidding or else just came out of a cave. I live in rural Oregon and have met white people who go to tanning salons, I live in a town with less then 20,000 people and there are two tanning salons in this town. As having lips injected, once again you need to get out more, there have been numerous stories reported on TV and the print media.

While I don't know the exact mindset of a person who climbs into a machine so that they can unnaturally darken their skin, it does seem abit odd that one would demonize people of color and then take the chance of getting skin cancer by trying to be dark themselves. I suppose in a rather pathetic way, someone could reasonably justified that way of thinking.

Oh and case you didn't hear, there is now a spray on tan that people can get.

I'm pretty sure a spray on tan would not be a big seller where I live. Too, who needs a tanning salon when you live on an island on the equator, surrounded by brown-skinned native folk, naturally-tanned Asian beach babes and bronze-skinned haole (white) surfers?

Oh, but I do travel to the U.S. mainland at least three times a year for conventions and to visit my kids in college. I often can't help but notice those black women with their hair straightened. Sometimes, dyed brown and blond. I've even seen some black women with red and blue hair! And how about those black women wearing blue/green contact lenses? They wouldn't be trying to "look white" now, would they? Just asking...
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
I don't give a shit what you have seen.....check and see how those industries flourish.....particularly where "your finest" live.....so obviously you are in one of those red states where a woman and a cow can be confused for each other and do not know nothing about what I am referring to....so all that additional BS you are talking about what I am and how important I think I am....I will just ignore it all because facts are facts...and you can best believe that many blacks do not give a flying f-k about whites either...but yet you have your azz in here trying to satisfy something you feel that is lacking about yourself....talk about boosting self-esteem by putting down others...maybe you need to re-examine your lineage from 1950 back and re-live the f-ked up history of this sad azz country that is now being led by a moron........your people invented racism, bigotry and everything else...and handed it down.....not mine.......

The erudite "professor Kevin" is at it again. He must be one of those "black firsts" that Malcolm X ridiculed. So full of his own sense of self-importance. LOL!

Keep guessing about where I live. At least I don't live your life. How sad and pathetic a life that must be... Frown
quote:
I often can't help but notice those black women with their hair straightened. Sometimes, dyed brown and blond. I've even seen some black women with red and blue hair! And how about those black women wearing blue/green contact lenses? They wouldn't be trying to "look white" now, would they? Just asking...
As useless as this topic is, IMO...

Eggie, you would really have to question more seriously why Whites would do it. An argument can easily be made why Blacks would. American society has never assigned the highest value with being Black. Quite the opposite and everyone who comes here (immigrants) pick up on it quick. But America has for an overwhelming majority of its history undoubtedly associated WHITENESS with all things "beautiful" and of "worth".

So, really... the White pyschosis is a much more perplexing and interesting phenomenon. Again, one could understand why Blacks would do it. Why there would be some intuitive impulse... The history of "Passing" in and of itself makes a powerful argument for that.

So tell me?
What are Whites trying to "Pass" as?
quote:
Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
I often can't help but notice those black women with their hair straightened. Sometimes, dyed brown and blond. I've even seen some black women with red and blue hair! And how about those black women wearing blue/green contact lenses? They wouldn't be trying to "look white" now, would they? Just asking...


Maybe so, maybe not. But unlike white people, these women are not hypocritically doing these things while maintaining a system of black supremacy, either, are they? You're not gonna find very many blue-contact-wearing black women who believe that white features are inferior. And to those of us who don't have much trouble with reading comprehension, that appears to have been the point of the post in which the tanning salons were first brought up.

Not that Kev and Jazzdog have been having any trouble dispatching your dumb ass, but truth is truth, young man.
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
Does Egbertsouse mean you're like the fake saxon "king" of pickled pork? Or just the king of pickled shit in general? It sure seems like you are trying to preserve some shit that's real old and real tired. "White" people aint nothing to be equal to. "White" people don't all move in lock step like nazis. You sound young and not to bright. Grow up and try to explore some real life. Why don't you try to establish a "Corp of Peace" in yourself? Stop posting this bullshit and go outside and meet new people.


Chill out, my little chickadee... No need to get all upset. What's wrong with having one token whitey on the board to vent your built-up hate on? Otherwise, all you folks would be left to do is agree with the self-hate rantings of Kevin41 ad nauseum. Surely, that gets boring, huh? So, go ahead. Hate away at me. Fortunately, I'm like many white folks these days who have abandoned lily-livered liberalism. Your cries of "racist whitey!" roll off me like water off a duck's back.

As a bonus, if you be nice, I'll tell you about some of my "Corp of Peace" (good one!) adventures. Like the time I was attacked by a sea crocodile in a mangrove swamp! Makes a walk down ghetto streets back in the states seem like a prance through Disneyland! Smile
quote:
Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
All I stated, in other words, was that the so-called "people of color" of Asia and the Pacific have far less in common with Africans than they do with Europeans.


I'm not interested in talking about who "tans" or who gets "butt implants," all of which are subjective and therefore cannot be used as evidence to support theories that would suggest whites experience problems interacting with non-whites. Nor am I interested in your personal observations of Asians in the Peace Corps. When I speak about "people of color," I am focusing on them as a COLLECTIVE group, which will include anyone who is not considered "Western," "European," or "White." These so-called "primitive" and/or "indigenous" groups (North American Natives, South Americans, Africans, Asians, anyone that is nonwhite), in terms of thier intimate relationship with religion, spirituality, interest in family and people, nonconfrontational and community orientation have more things in common with one another than they do with later arriving Europeans. Conversely, Europeans are individualistic, anti-spiritual, self-absorbed, materialistic, superficial in all mattters, science and technology obsessed, capitalistic, exploitative, confrontational, hostile, violent, defensive, and abusive (especially toward nonwhites), xenophobic, conceited, arrogant in all matters, antisocial, egotistical, experiences problems with ambiguity, prefers absolutes (i.e. this is "right" and this is "wrong"), self-righteous when they cannot afford to be, and possess a relentless hatred toward difference. NONE of these charateristics and cultural personality traits will you find in indigenous cultures.
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And let me just add here that everything that you have written up to this point has done nothing but substantiate my characterizations of you and the people for whom you represent. Unless you dramatically and miracously change your attitude and thinking toward nonwhites, towards blacks in particular, we cannot believe otherwise.
I think Rowe just clowned....big time.

Egbertsouse thinks that the oppressed have more in common with their oppressor than with each other. Typical imperialist thinking. He/she stated...

"I'm like many white folks these days who have abandoned lily-livered liberalism. Your cries of "racist whitey!" roll off me like water off a duck's back."

All he/she is pointing out(unintentionally, they have no idea how transparent their posts can be) is that as the United Snakes of Amerikkka's imperial notions expand via the international policy of the even moreso (than usual) blood thirstly administration currently in power....The undereducated(on puropse) patsy white hoards will follow blindly, addopting even thir own exploiters notions...all under the false guise of white supremacy and survival...forgetting about class of course...

Non elite neo-cons and cons are suckers and sheep.
quote:
Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
Chill out, my little chickadee... No need to get all upset. What's wrong with having one token whitey on the board to vent your built-up hate on? Otherwise, all you folks would be left to do is agree with the self-hate rantings of Kevin41 ad nauseum. Surely, that gets boring, huh? So, go ahead. Hate away at me. Fortunately, I'm like many white folks these days who have abandoned lily-livered liberalism. Your cries of "racist whitey!" roll off me like water off a duck's back.

As a bonus, if you be nice, I'll tell you about some of my "Corp of Peace" (good one!) adventures. Like the time I was attacked by a sea crocodile in a mangrove swamp! Makes a walk down ghetto streets back in the states seem like a prance through Disneyland! Smile


You are a coward in every sense of the word. You sit behind your keyboard and type all kinds of things that you would never say in person, because, "like many white folks these days who have abandoned lily-livered liberalism", you don't have the courage to stand behind your convictions.

You are a cyber-pussy, a cyber-bitch, who wouldn't survive 10 seconds in "the ghetto".

"Attacked by a sea croc..." - You were probably in a tour bus AT disneyland.

egbertSISSY, you are an embarassment to your race.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
All I stated, in other words, was that the so-called "people of color" of Asia and the Pacific have far less in common with Africans than they do with Europeans.


I'm not interested in talking about who "tans" or who gets "butt implants," all of which are subjective and therefore cannot be used as evidence to support theories that suggest that whites have problems interacting with non-whites. Nor am I interested in your personal observations of Asians in the Peace Corps. When I speak about "people of color," I am focusing on them as a COLLECTIVE group, which will include anyone who is not considered "Western," "European," or "White." These so-called "primitive" and/or "indigenous" groups (North American Natives, South Americans, Africans, Asians, anyone that is nonwhite), in terms of thier intimate relationship with religion, spirituality, interest in family and people, nonconfrontational and community orientation have more things in common with one another than they do with later arriving Europeans. Conversely, Europeans are individualistic, anti-spiritual, self-absorbed, materialistic, superficial in all mattters, science and technology obsessed, capitalistic, exploitative, confrontational, hostile, violent, defensive, and abusive (especially toward nonwhites), xenophobic, conceited, arrogant in all matters, antisocial, egotistical, experiences problems with ambiguity, prefers absolutes (i.e. this is "right" and this is "wrong"), self-righteous when they cannot afford to be, and possess a relentless hatred toward difference. NONE of these charateristics and cultural personality traits will you find in indigenous cultures.

Man, you sure use a lot of big and fancy words. Looks like that affirmative action really paid off in your case! Have you ever thought about appearing on Wheel of Fortune? Smile

Generalize all you want about whitey. Don't bother me. All I know is I'm white and I've gotten along just fine with the people of Asia and the Pacific for 22 years. Not one person has ever accused me of racism.
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
quote:
Originally posted by EgbertSouse:
Chill out, my little chickadee... No need to get all upset. What's wrong with having one token whitey on the board to vent your built-up hate on? Otherwise, all you folks would be left to do is agree with the self-hate rantings of Kevin41 ad nauseum. Surely, that gets boring, huh? So, go ahead. Hate away at me. Fortunately, I'm like many white folks these days who have abandoned lily-livered liberalism. Your cries of "racist whitey!" roll off me like water off a duck's back.

As a bonus, if you be nice, I'll tell you about some of my "Corp of Peace" (good one!) adventures. Like the time I was attacked by a sea crocodile in a mangrove swamp! Makes a walk down ghetto streets back in the states seem like a prance through Disneyland! Smile


You are a coward in every sense of the word. You sit behind your keyboard and type all kinds of things that you would _never_ say in person, because, "like many white folks these days who have abandoned lily-livered liberalism", you don't have the courage to stand behind your convictions.

You are a cyber-pussy, a cyber-bitch, who wouldn't survive 10 seconds in "the ghetto".

"Attacked by a sea croc..." - You were probably in a tour bus _AT_ disneyland.

egbert_SISSY_, you are an embarassment to your race.


Same to you, sissy boy. Why you hiding behind that door smoking that crack pipe, anyway? Afraid to come out and face the real world? I thought so...

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