Detroit1 meant SOME women, and because I live in the area I can attest to what happens on the singles scene on Friday and Saturday nights. This has been going on for well over twenty years. This issue with people (In Detroit, it is mostly women) who testify to holding one standard, but somehow magically end up with an individual who is the exact opposite; as most men know that SOME brothers are great, and others are truly hazardous. There are many who are in strong, loving, real relationships, these people are often not heard from"”simply because they are living their lives"”happily.

Men are expected to speak their minds and be consistent in action. I am, personally, a "legit" or "square" type, thus the ladies dismissed me.

The amazing thing is, Thugs are antisocial"”they espouse a philosophy which is destructive of others (Black-on-Black crime, remember?) and destructive of self, and these people live lives of delusion"”it's all about them, and what they want. Yet women do the choosing, and by choosing the Thug, they choose one of the major contributing factors of black cultural decline--they validate his mind-set. (To hell with those collage Mo'Fo's.) ... some Black women actually choose to visit their child's father with a sheet of glass separating them, or six-feet of dirt. Tell me how this is logical.

The God/King (?) by those very words it is implicit how unattainable this individual is. I am but a common man, but every Black Woman is a Queen. All of you can't be the kind of woman a God would want"”not to mention the fury of competition. Yet you compare a flesh and blood man to a God"”and b*tch & moan because the mortal-males just never seem to measure up (despicable failures!) Explain how this desire of the unattainable ideal is rational.

(Now, when I was single, I dated models"”because I was in Advertising. I even dated "dancers", but these women never hinted their disgust with my inferiority"”then, they weren't Black.)

By the reasoning of some of the women who post here"”I should not be married. Then, my wife is just a woman, very wonderfully so!
quote:
Originally posted by thayfen:
The amazing thing is, Thugs are antisocial"”they espouse a philosophy which is destructive of others (Black-on-Black crime, remember?) and destructive of self, and these people live lives of delusion"”it's all about them, and what they want. Yet women do the choosing, and by choosing the Thug, they choose one of the major contributing factors of black cultural decline--they validate his mind-set.


Because again, underneath it all, these particular women share the same mindset and backgrounds as the "thugs" to whom they are attracted. Usually, a woman who is attracted to thugs has a host of other issues with which she is dealing. The women that you are describing most likely grew up in dysfunctional homes and around "thuggish" people themselves. The parents most likely drank alcohol, smoked weed and cigarettes, ate poorly, had low ambition, and ultimately set poor examples to the children in their care. A woman who is raised in a conscious home, however, among people who are forward-thinking, will not pursue lost men, or even friendships with lost people, unless the frienship is motivated by a need to help the lost better themselves.

One of the brothers had suggested that we "talk" to other women who have misconceptions about what constituents a good man, but I generally do not associate with women like this, and so I do not know any on a personal level. As soon as I suspect a woman who I've recently met has serious "issues," I usually keep a distance.
Last edited {1}
Wow... The implications are far reaching...you just blew me away Rowe, you just taught me something I suspected but could never prove. Thank you.

I guess I should feel privileged you would quote from one of my post.


Rowe. From where do you think this feeling of befuddlement comes? I am a product of one of "those" areas. This issue with women demonstrating a detrimental preference for "Thugs" is not limited to any one social/economic/educational segment of the population.

I've seen educated professional women (On approx. 30 occasions) take up with Thugs. Women who came from great families...that is what amazes myself. I wasn't good enough twenty years ago"”I have no degree, but I would never do the things these "Thugs" do, and this has been going on for over twenty years...I expected it would stop...by now.

You see, I actually care. I do not live in a vacuum, and there's enough pain in the AA community without Black people producing more.
You know, these discussions are becoming "which came first, the chicken or the egg". Sometimes men are at fault for failing relationships, other times women are at fault. Sometimes, the person in the mirror is the reason your s--t didn't work out! Damn people, it's ALL of our faults!. We can make better choices in mates. We can choose to behave honorably in our relationships. We can choose to open our hearts, in spite of past hurts. We can check our friends (and ourselves) when we go astray. We can choose to value productive, honorable qualities in our mates.

Instead of wasting all this time bickering, how about some honest discussion, brainstorming and problem solving. I agree with many of the assessments made by ladies here, just not in the universal tone with which they are stated. The men here also raise valid issues & concerns (likewise, the proclamations should not be considered universal). We've all been hurt in a relationship in our lives; there's no gender exclusion to that pain. IMO, it's these "bad" experiences that help you recognize & cherish the good ones. Humans crave social interaction - we do need each other, romantically & otherwise. To need someone does not make you weak or less than, it makes you human! We can choose to wallow in rage, arrogance, denial & pity, or we can dust ourselves off, give someone new (and ourselves) a fair chance and get back in the game.

Some translation is in order, then some compromise. Men are trying to understand on a practical, pragmatic level how to please women. Ladies, understand this may not be the way you process relationships, but it is critical to know. We sure as hell don't understand the way you do things, so we can stand to learn as well.

As much as I enjoy a good debate, we are rapidly approaching "beat a dead horse" territory. Can we get some non-accusatory consensus building around here?

With heart

I'm not your adversary, I'm your complement...
quote:
Originally posted by thayfen:
I've seen educated professional women (On approx. 30 occasions) take up with Thugs.


That is unfortunate. However brother Thayfen, being professional is not the same as being conscious. There are a lot of people who are being trained to become "professionals" and have very little interest and/or concern for their health, the company in which they keep, and more importantly, expanding their information base outside of traditional academia. And I'm saying that after a certain age, if you are still making complaints about "All Women Want Are Thugs," then perhaps you need to raise your conscious level and determine what it is that is precluding you from accurately distinguishing between those women who are conscious and those who are not, because I know some brothers, many of whom are very selective, who never complain about having to deal with these types of women.
Last edited {1}
Please explain your use & definition of conscious. I'm having a difficult time with your declarations. Are you saying there are universal "levels" of consciousness? If so, what are they and which level allows you to eliminate all dating mismatches without getting to know that person? It sounds like you're using the term conscious simply to describe your dating preferences...

What specifically did these insightful men you spoke with say? What are they doing that yields them such results?
quote:
Originally posted by Sandye:
Perhaps it is a matter of maturity. Some younger brothers and sisters are still attempting to navigate through this maze we call life. As experience is without question the best teacher, many people tend to "get it together" when their priorities are set, their goals are established and they begin to incorporate life's lessons into their thought processes and take deliberate steps to establish their goals, priorities, and futures. This applies not only to relationships, but to life in general.

Education does not equal intelligence as we all know there are brothers and sisters who are "educated" idiots. Part of knowing what you want in a relationship is knowing what you do NOT want. Trial, error, and a few broken hearts are the way many people get their dual degrees in "lifeology" and "relationshipology" which are the only "degrees" that truly matter when it comes to matters of the heart. Unfortunately, far too many have a difficult time when the school of life presents us with courses in "thugology" and "chickenheadology". If an individual can not pass those courses, it is impossible to graduate. Far too many individuals are taking remedial courses in these subjects because they just don't get it!

Far too often, many educated individuals of both genders tend to discuss their degrees and credentials ad nauseum as though their academic achievements in and of themselves make them a great romantic catch. Okay, so you have your MBA and are a business executive. Terrific!!! Now, how good are you at making light conversation, making me laugh, being my partner, and having my back when sh*t gets rough?

Conversely (and thankfully), many individuals with or without formal degrees discuss their lives, dreams, and goals which makes for far more interesting conversation. If all an individual has to bring to the relationship table is academic credentials, it is time to, as my Twin says, banish them to the "hell naw" zone! You can't go forward looking back, and that degree is history so let's step into the now!

I could eat cold Beefaroni out of a can with an individual who is focused, committed, has his degree in "lifeology", has his priorities straight, and is on a deliberately chartered course. I would gag on filet mignon if it is garnished with a few pieces of paper that merely serve to put a few letters after a name but has prepared them for absolutely nothing. As always, it is merely my humble opinion.


Sandye,
you are way too modest but that what I love about you...the post is awesome! appl
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
What specifically did these insightful men you spoke with say? What are they doing that yields them such results?


To put it succintly, these men are on another level. Many of them are vegan, they don't drink, they don't smoke cigarettes (or weed), and they avoid intermingling (romatically) with lost people. And by doing this, they avoid the frustration that results from dealing with ignorant and lost women. Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind. This is why I have said that if a man desires to attract more distinguished types of women, then he must seriously evaluate his mindset in its current state. It is no secret that the people to whom we are attracted and with which we become involved are essentially a representation of who we are.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
What specifically did these insightful men you spoke with say? What are they doing that yields them such results?


To put it succintly, these men are on another level. Many of them are vegan, they don't drink, they don't smoke cigarettes (or weed), and they avoid intermingling (romatically) with lost people. And by doing this, they avoid the frustration that results from dealing with ignorant and lost women. Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind. This is why I have said that if a man desires to attract more distinguished types of women, then he must seriously evaluate his mindset in its current state. It is no secret that the people to whom we are attracted and with which we become involved are essentially a representation of who we are.


This is easy to say if you live in D.C. or New York....

That's it! I need to move... There's no one in this whole part of the country remotely like this Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind.

These guys don't get out much do they? They sound to me to be excessively critical over superficial nonsense. But, to each his own...
I'm truly beginning to believe that your selection is also going to be strongly determined by where you live. Here in Kentucky there are plenty of single professional women but after you weed out the hyper-Christianized Bible thumping church goers you really don't want to have anything to do with the thug lovers who are left...

There really honest to God doesn't seem to be anything else here....
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind.

These guys don't get out much do they? They sound to me to be excessively critical over superficial nonsense. But, to each his own...


What seems "petty" to you is important to others.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm truly beginning to believe that your selection is also going to be strongly determined by where you live. Here in Kentucky there are plenty of single professional women but after you weed out the hyper-Christianized Bible thumping church goers you really don't want to have anything to do with the thug lovers who are left...

There really honest to God doesn't seem to be anything else here....


Move. See what else is out there. I highly recommend it.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
What specifically did these insightful men you spoke with say? What are they doing that yields them such results?


To put it succintly, these men are on another level. Many of them are vegan, they don't drink, they don't smoke cigarettes (or weed), and they avoid intermingling (romatically) with lost people. And by doing this, they avoid the frustration that results from dealing with ignorant and lost women. Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind. This is why I have said that if a man desires to attract more distinguished types of women, then he must seriously evaluate his mindset in its current state. It is no secret that the people to whom we are attracted and with which we become involved are essentially a representation of who we are.


You still did not explain what puts these men on "another level" as you put it. You just described more personal preferences. Being vegan is a choice - not necessarily a better one than eating meats. Vegans have their own health issues to deal with. There are some nutrients that are hard to come by in vegan diets. Particularly if they do not consume diary. Drinking in moderation is shown to improve heart health and lipid profiles, so being a non-drinker isn't inherently better either. How do you determine someone is "lost" at first sight? It takes at least one conversation, maybe more to determine compatability. A person can do all the things these men do and still be ignorant and lost. They could date women that share their preferences that still are ignorant and lost.

What does distinguished mean to you? Is it education? Social status? Fashion sense? Age? Wealth? Diet? This is also a bit ambiguous. Once you define this for me, please explain how this stops one from being a poor dating choice or making poor dating choices?

Your last sentence cannot be proven in any manner, so I'll leave it alone.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm truly beginning to believe that your selection is also going to be strongly determined by where you live. Here in Kentucky there are plenty of single professional women but after you weed out the hyper-Christianized Bible thumping church goers you really don't want to have anything to do with the thug lovers who are left...

There really honest to God doesn't seem to be anything else here....


stay put bruh. DC area, Atlanta area, baltimore area, NYC area are pretty much all that same pool that you have there in KY. I hear rural South women maybe be better choices, maybe I'll look into that someday, but Big city women giveup
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm truly beginning to believe that your selection is also going to be strongly determined by where you live. Here in Kentucky there are plenty of single professional women but after you weed out the hyper-Christianized Bible thumping church goers you really don't want to have anything to do with the thug lovers who are left...

There really honest to God doesn't seem to be anything else here....


stay put bruh. DC area, Atlanta area, baltimore area, NYC area are pretty much all that same pool that you have there in KY. I hear rural South women maybe be better choices, maybe I'll look into that someday, but Big city women giveup


It's not that bad in the A - you have more variety in the pool.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Being vegan is a choice - not necessarily a better one than eating meats.


I disagree. Natural meat eaters eat flesh raw. Accordingly, natural meat eaters have claws, sharp teeth, sweat through the mouth, have a short intenstine which is two thirds the length of their bodies (humans are 30 ft. long), their jaws move up and down only, and the stomach can digest hair. Humans lack all of these natural meat eating habits and attributes. Furthermore, the human intestinal tract causes meat to stay in the body for up to 3 days. This causes toxins to be aborbed in the body creating diseases, while the natural meat eater's raw-flesh diet allows meat to leave quickly (1 day or less). In addition, flesh eating increases the workload of the kidneys and the liver. Consequently, this decreases man's ability to biochemically protect himself. Aside from this, animals secrete adrenaline into their bodies as a reaction to the fear caused by the slaughterhouse environment. This adrenaline poisons the flesh and creates toxins. Lastly, many types of diseases are transmitted by dead animals. The disease of Salmonella poisoning causes symptoms which resemble "colds," "flus," and "viruses." These symptoms are misdiagnosed and treated with "cold" medicines. There are of course many other health risks associated with eating meat, but just considering the information that we have discussed thus far, I would say that people who adhere to limited or meat-abstaining diets are indeed much healthier, for a myriad of reasons, than those who do not. They are also a lot less susceptible to premature death compared to non-meat eaters.

quote:
There are some nutrients that are hard to come by in vegan diets. Particularly if they do not consume diary.


It is mistake to assume that eating meat and dairy will provide all of the nutrients your body needs. Even meat and dairy consumers suffer from vitamin deficiency. This is why nutritionists recommend that both vegans and meat-eaters integrate supplements into their diets. Vitamins are given the name of vitamins because they are considered "vital to life." Vitamins both energize and minerally stablize the body. For these reasons, it is important to take vitamins, regardless of your dietary status. Dairy products are especially unsafe. Icecream and cheese in particular are totally unsafe. Icecream is made from cheese by-products, butter, butter oil, evaporated milk, condensed milik, all types of buttermilk, all types of skim milk, milk treated with sodium hydroxide and disodium phosphate, plastic cream, dried cream, cheap poisonous thinners, propylene (paint remover, antifreeze), imitation flavors (used as flea killers, embalming fluid, leather tanners), industral flavor chemicals (have caution and innocuous poison labels on them), polyoxyethylenes (cancerous), sodium a carboxymethyl cellulose (cancer inciter), gelatin (increases germ growth), antioxidants, buffers, neutralizers, stabilizers, and other dangerous chemicals which have been approved by the FDA. The chemical content of icecream and cheese does not have to be listed on the label as it has been exempted by the FDA.

quote:
Drinking in moderation is shown to improve heart health and lipid profiles, so being a non-drinker isn't inherently better either.


There are other, less risker, ways to improve the heart's condition if that's a person's goal. Drinking alcohol, a beverage that has also been linked to a wide range of illnesses, such as the increased risk of mouth, pharyngeal and oesophageal cancers (this risk being greatly increased if combined with smoking), is not one of the ways that I would choose to do this, especially when there much more healthier, less dangerous ways to achieve the same goal.

quote:
How do you determine someone is "lost" at first sight? It takes at least one conversation, maybe more to determine compatability. What does distinguished mean to you?


Now is probably a good time to mention that many of these brothers that I know, as associates, are veteran members of the United Nation of Islam (U.N.O.I). They live by strict dietary rules (only foods that are as close to their natural state are consumed), rigid standards of behavior, and rarely do they become involved in a relationship unless there is a prospect for marriage, having understood that recreational relationships are a detriment to the Black community. And so, the odds of them being attracted to the average woman in the mainstream community are nil.

Although I do not identify with some of their fundamentalist religious beliefs (e.g., women having to wear their hair covered, the men being permitted to have more than one wife), these men are what I would consider "distinguished" men. That is, they are conscious about how they live.
Last edited {1}
I'm well versed on matters of nutrition & fitness. If eating a vegan diet makes you feel better about yourself, great. Perhaps we'll discuss the pros & cons another time. If I break out the Pubmed studies, you're going to be in trouble! Big Grin
The point I'm trying to make clear for you is that everything you've named is simply preference. It in no way ensures a better caliber of dating experience or more character in a person. There are quite a few statements you present as fact that I have questions about, but I have to finish my protein shake and go to bed so I can build more muscle with all the meat I ate today! tongue
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Being vegan is a choice - not necessarily a better one than eating meats.


I disagree. Natural meat eaters eat flesh raw. Accordingly, natural meat eaters have claws, sharp teeth, sweat through the mouth, have a short intenstine which is two thirds the length of their bodies (humans are 30 ft. long), their jaws move up and down only, and the stomach can digest hair. Humans lack all of these natural meat eating habits and attributes. Furthermore, the human intestinal tract causes meat to stay in the body for up to 3 days. This causes toxins to be aborbed in the body creating diseases, while the natural meat eater's raw-flesh diet allows meat to leave quickly (1 day or less). In addition, flesh eating increases the workload of the kidneys and the liver. Consequently, this decreases man's ability to biochemically protect himself. Aside from this, animals secrete adrenaline into their bodies as a reaction to the fear caused by the slaughterhouse environment. This adrenaline poisons the flesh and creates toxins. Lastly, many types of diseases are transmitted by dead animals. The disease of Salmonella poisoning causes symptoms which resemble "colds," "flus," and "viruses." These symptoms are misdiagnosed and treated with "cold" medicines. There are of course many other health risks associated with eating meat, but just considering the information that we have discussed thus far, I would say that people who adhere to limited or meat-abstaining diets are indeed much healthier, for a myriad of reasons, than those who do not. They are also a lot less susceptible to premature death compared to non-meat eaters.

quote:
There are some nutrients that are hard to come by in vegan diets. Particularly if they do not consume diary.


It is mistake to assume that eating meat and dairy will provide you with all of the nutrients that you will need. Even meat and dairy consumers suffer from vitamin deficiency. This is why nutritionists recommend that both vegans and meat-eaters integrate supplements into their diets. Vitamins are given the name of vitamins because they are considered "vital to life." Vitamins both energize and minerally stablize the body. For these reasons, it is important to take vitamins, regardless of your dietary status. Dairy products are especially unsafe. Icecream and cheese in particular are totally unsafe. Icecream is made from cheese by-products, butter, butter oil, evaporated milk, condensed milik, all types of buttermilk, all types of skim milk, milk treated with sodium hydroxide and disodium phosphate, plastic cream, dried cream, cheap poisonous thinners, propylene (paint remover, antifreeze), imitation flavors (used as flea killers, embalming fluid, leather tanners), industral flavor chemicals (have caution and innocuous poison labels on them), polyoxyethylenes (cancerous), sodium a carboxymethyl cellulose (cancer inciter), gelatin (increases germ growth), antioxidants, buffers, neutralizers, stabilizers, and other dangerous chemicals which have been approved by the FDA. The chemical content of icecream and cheese does not have to be listed on the label as it has been exempted by the FDA.

quote:
Drinking in moderation is shown to improve heart health and lipid profiles, so being a non-drinker isn't inherently better either.


There are other, less risker, ways to improve the heart's condition if that's a person's goal. Drinking alcohol, a beverage that has also been linked to a wide range of illnesses, such as the increased risk of mouth, pharyngeal and oesophageal cancers (this risk being greatly increased if combined with smoking), is not one of the ways that I would choose to do this, especially when there much more healthier, less dangerous ways to achieve the same goal.

quote:
How do you determine someone is "lost" at first sight? It takes at least one conversation, maybe more to determine compatability. What does distinguished mean to you?


Now is probably a good time to mention that many of these brothers that I know, as associates, are veteran members of the United Nation of Islam (U.N.O.I). They live by strict dietary rules (only foods that are as close to their natural state are consumed), rigid standards of behavior, and rarely do they become involved in a relationship unless there is a prospect for marriage, having understood that recreational relationships are a detriment to the Black community. And so, the odds of them being attracted to the average woman in the mainstream community are nil.

Although I do not identify with some of their fundamentalist religious beliefs (e.g., women having to wear their hair covered, the men being permitted to have more than one wife), these men are what I would consider "distinguished" men. That is, they are conscious about how they live.
Rowe.... Rowe.... Rowe.... Rowe.....

My Sista......

We share soooo much.....

I knew there was something about you I liked...

Couldn't put my finger on it...

Until now....

Just wanted to let you know I think you're right on point....

By the way....

Love your avatar....

Is that a Faith Ringold portrait?



UNOI? Wink You have a PM coming..... Big Grin



Peace,
Virtue
off

Assertions without proof are just that - we can take it to the Health forum, but I want to see proof of these claims. Remember, you made the claim that vegan diets are better for longevity & health - it's yours to validate with real data.
To ddouble: Sister Rowe is looking down the UNOI path. Assertions without proof are what UNOI is all about. I know, I've dealt with these people for over thirty years. Closed-minded, dictatorial, Biased (Racists), egomaniacal and mentally myopic. They sell enlightenment, what you get is entrapment. (This is why so many Black elitist"”Black snobs"”fall so easily under their enfluence.)

You can keep your UNOI.
Interesting commentary - I'd like to hear more regarding your opinion of the organization. From what I gather the socio-political purpose appears to be worthwhile. The religious aspects seem to be quite different from orthodox Islam (and even the Nation of Islam) however.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Interesting commentary - I'd like to hear more regarding your opinion of the organization. From what I gather the socio-political purpose appears to be worthwhile. The religious aspects seem to be quite different from orthodox Islam (and even the Nation of Islam) however.
Just a note..... the UNOI is not NOI..... but as in all things there are many key similarities between all three.......

I will not give my opinion here.... because you asked for Thayfen's opinion...... but there is a wealth of information in terms of people's opinions on the net and otherwise....

The best source is to listen or go for yourself.... not for recruitment.... but as in a lot of things in our community ...... people tend to latch on to a perception and simply feed themselves the opinions that feed their preconceived notions..... Unfortunately.... just like with speeches..... people usually.... not always...... have been fed stereotypes, sound bites..... or they simply refuse to listen to any thing different than their long held views..... fine.... but unfortunate nonetheless....


Peace,
Virtue
Why does it seem that all of our women (or a goodly portion of them) are looking to these strict, authoritarian (and paternalistic) religious organizations (whether Christian or Islamic matters not to me) which are basically throwbacks to bygone eras?

To feel good in the security of the structure?

Anyway, I have the same response to any organization whose main requirement is that I - a male descendant of slaves - "submit" my intellect to some other man: they can go hang themselves.
It disturbs me that on every side I see * systems of control * on the rise: systems meant to keep us under control: whether that be the prison industrial complex, the military industrial complex, or these loopy religious movements: it's the same thing...

And what's much worse is that we're willingly running into the arms of those same systems...

Even if one resists - as I do - to make matters worse, our own women are demanding we submit to this control in some form or other...

As descendants of slave we must learn to be free, how to exercise our will, or to not execise our will, to strive for a goal, or not strive for a goal - in short, how to control ourselves - and how to freely choose our destiny...

Anything else is inadequate.

Just MHO
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Why does it seem that all of our women (or a goodly portion of them) are looking to these strict, authoritarian (and paternalistic) religious organizations (whether Christian or Islamic matters not to me) which are basically throwbacks to bygone eras?
all? .... there are plenty of women left that do not want structure or an accountable moral environment.....

quote:
To feel good in the security of the structure?
Whether we like it or not... we are all in some sort of structure.... even when the structure is perceived as "free".... one will have submitted themselves to an idea... a way of life... and usually that one will resist existing outside of the self-imposed comfortable parameters..... someone looking on the outside of all that supposed freedom could call it a rigid structure as well.... one that does not consider the moral structure viable..

quote:
Anyway, I have the same response to any organization whose main requirement is that I - a male descendant of slaves - "submit" my intellect to some other man: they can go hang themselves.
Such harsh words..... Is there a paternalistic man forcing your hand? I doubt it... you don't seem like the type to submit to that..... but ....would you consider someone who asked you to consider an alternative lifestyle forcing you to "submit"? Or would you give them the benefit of the doubt before you told them to go "hang themselves"?


It seems to me a little "control" is a good thing.....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Why does it seem that all of our women (or a goodly portion of them) are looking to these strict, authoritarian (and paternalistic) religious organizations (whether Christian or Islamic matters not to me) which are basically throwbacks to bygone eras?
all? .... there are plenty of women left that do not want structure or an accountable moral environment.....

quote:
To feel good in the security of the structure?
Whether we like it or not... we are all in some sort of structure.... even when the structure is perceived as "free".... one will have submitted themselves to an idea... a way of life... and usually that one will resist existing outside of the self-imposed comfortable parameters..... someone looking on the outside of all that supposed freedom could call it a rigid structure as well.... one that does not consider the moral structure viable..

quote:
Anyway, I have the same response to any organization whose main requirement is that I - a male descendant of slaves - "submit" my intellect to some other man: they can go hang themselves.
Such harsh words..... Is there a paternalistic man forcing your hand? I doubt it... you don't seem like the type to submit to that..... but ....would you consider someone who asked you to consider an alternative lifestyle forcing you to "submit"? Or would you give them the benefit of the doubt before you told them to go "hang themselves"?


It seems to me a little "control" is a good thing.....

Peace,
Virtue


I have only one thing to say to you: I think you know me well enough - assuming that I'm an honest man - does it seem to you that I'm out of control and need some outsider to rein me in?
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I have only one thing to say to you: I think you know me well enough
Apparently not.....

quote:
- assuming that I'm an honest man - does it seem to you that I'm out of control and need some outsider to rein me in?
I can only give a protracted opinion..... I do not know you well enough to say that much about you..... I'm surprised that you think I would.....

This dialogue is not about whether you "need" anything....

It was, I thought, about preconceived notions of certain organizations in our community.....

But, to be fair and answer your question....
the honest answer is "I don't know".... because I don't know you that well....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I have only one thing to say to you: I think you know me well enough
Apparently not.....

quote:
- assuming that I'm an honest man - does it seem to you that I'm out of control and need some outsider to rein me in?
I can only give a protracted opinion..... I do not know you well enough to say that much about you..... I'm surprised that you think I would.....

This dialogue is not about whether you "need" anything....

It was, I thought, about preconceived notions of certain organizations in our community.....

But, to be fair and answer your question....
the honest answer is "I don't know".... because I don't know you that well....


Peace,
Virtue


Whatever...
Just remember: Those photos you saw came from the son of high school drop outs. Ex-janitor, ex-resident in housing projects, currently a Ph.D.

You don't know me well enough?: The topic is correct: Black women and cognitive dissonance: That's the name of the thread. I'm right on topic actually...
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Just remember: Those photos you saw came from the son of high school drop outs. Ex-janitor, ex-resident in housing projects, currently a Ph.D.

You don't know me well enough?: The topic is correct: Black women and cognitive dissonance: That's the name of the thread. I'm right on topic actually...
Okay....

I do not mean to offend you...

You were attacking an institution I hold dear....

I try not to attack anyone or put them on the spot regarding their beliefs or things that they hold dear....

I would not....

Please let's not continue to argue...



Peace,
Virtue
Listen people: I apologize"”my personal experience with http://unitednationofislam.com/ lends to me a strong bias. There are many of their members whom have benefited from their association to these people.

I, personally, may consider UNOI a cult, but many others do not. This is their right. A right I and many of my friends and family have fought for...I have no right to disparage this...organization.

If you have a moment, you may want to read up on their activities"”but for me, it's not my dance.

I apologize for taking you off-topic.
I have read on UNOI thayfen & virtue - I wasn't looking for a primer from either of you - just further elaboration on earlier statements. Too many people make matters of faith untouchable in critical discussion. If anyone here is too sensitive to participate in this portion of the discussion, he/she can willingly bow out. All opinions are welcome.

virtue- Do you think this:
quote:
all? .... there are plenty of women left that do not want structure or an accountable moral environment.....

is a fair statement? Are you suggesting that UNOI (or similiar groups) is the only way to acquire "structure or an accountable moral environment"?

Also, this submission to structure seems contrary to the notion of a god creating whatever he desires. Please reconcile the discrepancy for me?
hat

I am in sync with this HonestBrother:
quote:
As descendants of slave we must learn to be free, how to exercise our will, or to not execise our will, to strive for a goal, or not strive for a goal - in short, how to control ourselves - and how to freely choose our destiny...

Anything else is inadequate.

tfro
Darn - I made a bad edit - Oh well, the key part of my post is still here!
Last edited {1}
quote:
It disturbs me that on every side I see * systems of control * on the rise: systems meant to keep us under control: whether that be the prison industrial complex, the military industrial complex, or these loopy religious movements: it's the same thing...


We should all wish for systems of control. It is not control which is the problem, it is control which runs contrary to the natural desires of those striving to be civilized, which creats the problem. Humanity has always created law, and enforcement agencies to ensure security. Are you not under the control of America? Are you not happy to know that someone in this nations seeks to control the crime rate?

You want control...

Also are you suggesting that the NOI is part of the group of "Loopy religious movements"?

quote:
Even if one resists - as I do - to make matters worse, our own women are demanding we submit to this control in some form or other...


What man would wish to live, but not stand up when challenged to defend his women, or even himself? Every man should wish to be a part of something bigger than himself...Our women should demand that we take part in "the struggle"..White women should make the same demand on white men who live in this country....

Is there something wrong with service?

quote:
As descendants of slave we must learn to be free, how to exercise our will, or to not execise our will, to strive for a goal, or not strive for a goal - in short, how to control ourselves - and how to freely choose our destiny...


As descendants of sleves we must not choose fierce independance over common sense. Our enemy was united when they decided to attack our native land. We must unite if we are ever going to throw off the yoke of this unfortunate episode in our history.

If you do not agree with any of the existing structures, are you prepared to offer an alternative?


Kai
I will not answer your post in detail since it puts a lot of words into my mouth. I do not object to service. I do not object to protecting my woman or myself.

I do object to giving lip service or intellectual assent to a number of religious doctrines which have nothing directly to do with service, protection, or unity. For example,

12. WE BELIEVE that Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long-awaited "Messiah" of the Christians and the "Mahdi" of the Muslims.

And don't ask me what other doctrines... the above was taken directly from the NOI website...

I can go fetch more if you want other examples...
I'm not criticizing individual rights to believe whatever they want. That's not my purpose.

I just believe it absurd and even suicidal (from a group perspective) to rush into these religious groups and demand everyone else believe this stuff too or else they're unclean, or unworthy, or not as evolved or something.

IT IS UNNECESSARILY DIVISIVE OF THE BLACK COLLECTIVE
Agreed HB -

People, please defend your position without setting up strawman arguments.

What is wrong with HB's statements. How did NOI, UNOI, and the Five Percent Nation come to be? Disagreement in the methodology of acheiving a common goal. Unless you consider one or more of the following: Minister Farrakhan, Solomon (Royall), AND Clarence 13X (RIP) to be wrong, why challenge HonestBrother for having a different take?

The concepts of service, unity, & protection may be used by a social or religious group, but such organizations are not the sole custodians of such concepts.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm not criticizing individual rights to believe whatever they want. That's not my purpose.

I just believe it absurd and even suicidal (from a group perspective) to rush into these religious groups and demand everyone else believe this stuff too or else they're unclean, or unworthy, or not as evolved or something.

IT IS UNNECESSARILY DIVISIVE OF THE BLACK COLLECTIVE


This is the point I was making to Rowe earlier...
bump
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
virtue- Do you think this:
quote:
all? .... there are plenty of women left that do not want structure or an accountable moral environment.....

is a fair statement? Are you suggesting that UNOI (or similiar groups) is the only way to acquire "structure or an accountable moral environment"?

Also, this submission to structure seems contrary to the notion of a god creating whatever he desires. Please reconcile the discrepancy for me?
hat

Add Reply

Post
×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×