This phenomenon has baffled me for years. I have yet to figure out and understand this pathology. It's like code-breaking.

Cognitive dissonance is a perceived inconsistency between two cognitions in which the person believes one thing but then acts in a different way from what they believed.

To prove cognitive dissonance, one must observe the interactions between black men and black women and interpret the responses and reactions that black women give to black men.

Are these reactions positive, negative or neutral? Judging from the voiced wishes of the black women as to the type of man whom she seeks, how would you anticipate the reaction of black women towards black men in settings of higher education and the corporate workplace? Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

Out of contempt for educated brothas, sisters attack the educated black mans self with negative reactions so that the black man will internalize this negative self-image. Black women use other negative sanctions to show disapproval for black men who obtain education with frowns, cold-shoulders, dis-interest and negative attitudes.

Someone standing on the outside looking in at this interaction could not conclude from the black woman's behavior that she desires to be with educated/professionally employed black men. Black women say that they desire to be involved with educated, professionally employed black men but this idea/notion is not manifested into action which is obvious in the social interaction when the two parties are in one another's presence.

The reason that some women react with shock and disbelief when they hear of a single established brother is because their perception of an ideal culture does not jive with real/actual culture. The enthusiasm in the ideal world is not present in the physical world.

The rhetoric of many black women is a direct antonym/contradiction of their actions. If the actions coincided with the beliefs, men whom involve themselves in criminal activity wouldn't have the luxury of companionship with the black woman let alone children. If the actions agreed with the rhetoric, black women would show admiration and approval towards the already established brothers. Neither is the case. This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
All phenomena are characterized by "unity" through the complementarity of masculine and feminine principles – Memphite theology
Original Post
ouch! be prepared... unless the sistas have already had enough of this type of rheutoric... Wink [fingers drumming on table icon here]

quote:
The rhetoric of many black women is a direct antonym/contradiction of their actions.

hmmm...you don't think this cuts both ways? Like it's more a human trait than an exclusively female one.
.
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...
If the explanation provided above truly describes the mindset of even a small subset of sisters, it is dispicable. That is the worst cop-out.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
If the explanation provided above truly describes the mindset of even a small subset of sisters, it is dispicable. That is the worst cop-out.
Why?

Peace,
Virtue
I'm not sure if I'm reading you right. If I've misinterpreted what you've said Virtue pls set me straight... but are you saying a thug is the only (black) man who has 'created his own world'? Confused

IMHO, being a thug is a cop-out. Not original, certinly not unique, not individual and quite one-dimentional and self-centred.

Whatever world we live in, everyone creates their own reality - reality is every conscious moment and how people choose to act in that moment.

A man with self-respect and dignity usually respects others...he is a King in my book.

Whether he's academic or flips burgers, that shines off a man as clearly as any bling.

A thug has no respect for anyone and is just an over-sized little boy with a bad attitude. Razz
.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
Many women I know want strong men

This is the bases of my argument. Why doesn't the "want" of many sistas reflect in the men they end up preferring to deal with?

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...

So does this explain why many women prefer to involve themselves with men of non-conformist type characteristics (de-values marriage, family, education, normal employment, etc.)?

.... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man.....

perhaps....this is a new concept to me; something to ponder on; but it still proves my original argument about the contrast between the complaints and actions of many sistas. Why complain about the lack of educated black men when in actuality, you have contempt for them?

..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

I receive this as being "never satisfied".
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.


Talk About Beating A Dead Horse...

I had written something earlier that I decided to delete, but how are the accusations that you're making about the prevalence of "Cognitive Dissonant Black women" any different from the accusations being made about underemployed Black men, especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.

Therefore, I fail to see the validity in your argument when you haven't inquired or surveyed the dating experiences of women on this site nor have you produced any documented research that would clearly show that there is a surplus of employed and educated Black men at our disposal, that 800,000 Black men are not being wharehoused in jails, or that Black women do not make up the majority of college graduates within the Black community. Where is your evidence disproving what everyone from social scientists to relationship experts have long since acknowledged??? I would also like to read descriptions of what it is like to be a single Black woman in America from the perspective of Black women themselves, and not from anyone else's perspective.

Here we go again with this...
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
If the explanation provided above truly describes the mindset of even a small subset of sisters, it is dispicable. That is the worst cop-out.
Why?

Peace,
Virtue


art gurl & detroit1 have already touched on many of the reasons why it's shameful. If we are talking about adoration & respect for the criminal lifestyle, I shouldn't have to explain further.

Just one more train of thought comment though:

If admiring thugs & rejecting educated men is the new "thing" for Black women, then George W. Bush must be beating off the sisters with a stick... ohsnap
lol
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.


I don't know what's going in other cities, but in Washington, DC, this is the dilemma with which many sistas are contending. Very few men are earning enough to support families. Many of them have not educated themselves due to poor family backgrounds, parents' low expectations, differential treatment, or poor-performing public schools. Consequently, they are either unemployed or underemployed

I'm confused
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...[/color][/i]


If this is your justification for women wanting thugs, then these women get exactly what they deserve. If your statement is true, now I realize why black women aren't interested in me and why most women of other races are.
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.


I don't know what's going in other cities, but in Washington, DC, this is the dilemma with which many sistas are contending. Very few men are earning enough to support families. Many of them have not educated themselves due to poor family backgrounds, parents' low expectations, differential treatment, or poor-performing public schools. Consequently, they are either unemployed or underemployed

I'm confused


Yes, among other issues, this topic is a heavily debated issue in Washington, DC. In fact, a popular radio host by the name of Michael Baisden discusses this issue quite often on his radio program. And each time that he brings this issue up ("Single Black Women"), a swarm of Black women call in to voice their concerns. I'm only 29 years old, and right now, I'm doing OK in terms of dating. But after listening to all of these women well into their 30's and 40's calling and complaining, frankly, I'm beginning to get a little worried.

We do have a major problem with violence here in Washington DC. Drugs and gangs are a big problem in the poorer parts of the district. And unfortunately, this is where majority of Black men reside. Not a day goes by that I don't hear about a Black youngster either being shot or being ruthlessly beaten by a police officer(s). Just recently, a young Black teen was beaten for what went on for 84 minutes by five or more police officers. The beating was taped and aired on the news this past week. None of the officers, of course, were prosecuted, and so I am really concerned and scared for these boys. They are literally fair game and walking targets for anyone who wants to assault them. And I honestly don't know what to do about this. I just teach the youngsters and try to tell them to go to college (especially the boys). I tell them to please stay out of trouble. This whole thug phenomenon is absolute madness and I believe it has gotten way out of control in our community. Our kids are in desparate need for some serious guidance--the girls and the boys.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
....nor have you produced any documented research that would clearly show that there is a surplus of employed and educated Black men at our disposal, that 800,000 Black men are not being wharehoused in jails, or that Black women do not make up the majority of college graduates within the Black community. Where is your evidence disproving what everyone from social scientists to relationship experts have long since acknowledged???



I apologize for the misunderstanding of my post; I am not disagreeing with those statistics, only pointing out why they are........

Let's take the role of the other; in this case: the unemployed, uneducated, criminally involved black man in this country. If black women hold contempt for established brothas, isn't there consequences attached to getting oneself together? Isn't it unpopular? Wouldn't this black man be compromising the attention and indirect love affair that many black women have with the under established black man? Wouldn't he be entering the world of nonexistence due to the notion that many black women just can't seem to bring themselves to recognize and acknowledge the few established brothers that are already around? Wouldn't he be leaving the black woman's focus and concentration only to be purposely overlooked just like the other professional and educated black men?
(Bad publicity is better than no publicity). To exchange this means to loose the sexual favor of the black woman. Many self-loafing men would make a change overnight if there were a sudden shift in the preference of most black women from anti-social thugs to educated, clean-cut upright men.

I admit that these ideas are radical thus requiring time to absorb and digest like anytime you expose people to ideas that conflict with their previous ways of looking at the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Michael Baisden discusses this issue quite often on his radio program. And each time that he brings this issue up ("Single Black Women"), a swarm of Black women call in to voice their concerns. I'm only 29 years old, and right now, I'm doing OK in terms of dating. But after listening to all of these women well into their 30's and 40's calling and complaining, frankly, I'm beginning to get a little worried.


Your statement is under the assumption that people (in this case black women) mean exactly what they say. Maybe they complain just for the sake of complaining (and Mike knows this, but he's getting paid). I don't give people as much credit as you do. I like to weigh peoples voiced concerns against their actions/behavior. That is why I used the term cog. dis. to explain this contradiction.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
I'm not sure if I'm reading you right. If I've misinterpreted what you've said Virtue pls set me straight... but are you saying a thug is the only (black) man who has 'created his own world'? Confused

IMHO, being a thug is a cop-out. Not original, certinly not unique, not individual and quite one-dimentional and self-centred.

Whatever world we live in, everyone creates their own reality - reality is every conscious moment and how people choose to act in that moment.

A man with self-respect and dignity usually respects others...he is a King in my book.

Whether he's academic or flips burgers, that shines off a man as clearly as any bling.

A thug has no respect for anyone and is just an over-sized little boy with a bad attitude. Razz
.
Yes... your description of a thug is mine also.... I tried to portray the sentiment of those I know as best I could.... What I presented wasn't a justification.... It was a perspective.....

It also wasn't scientific..... It was simply another experience....

One may not like it...... but it exists and gives one another window into another mindset.....

I described it the way that I did because among women that I know they can't really express what they're feeling..... but it comes out in bits and pieces.....

I uphold righteous principles...... so a thug is not a King..... and the women that I know don't think so..... not really..... But what they do see is an aspect of a King that strikes them as attractive.....

And that is creating His own world.....
One with a Black face...

Not a world where they exist and can help move along the objectives and goals of a world that is run by their oppressors....

Hard concept to swallow? Accept? Agree with? Understand?

Sure....

I am the same way.....

But one difference is....I understand it....

And a question was asked so I thought I shed light on what I know actual women are saying....

a god.... heavy word.... yes.... loaded with meaning.....

but these women aren't crack pots.....
some of them use this word..... because of the strength attached to it.....

This shows me the importance of certain qualities....

This also shows me the desperation to see this aspect of manhood played out......

So much so..... that they'll even turn towards a thug to receive it.....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
art gurl & detroit1 have already touched on many of the reasons why it's shameful. If we are talking about adoration & respect for the criminal lifestyle, I shouldn't have to explain further.
No, ddouble... I wasn't giving a justification.... for me there are two separate emotions being expressed.....

Let me try to explain a bit further.....

Do these women enjoy the criminal lifestyle? No.... These women could give a lecture on it that would give inspiration to others to leave it......

--- But, the contradiction is....seemingly... any way.... that in their personal choices.... they choose men sometimes that go against the grain of everything they espouse.....

When discussed...... words like "god" come up to describe someone in control of his environment..... or "he don't take no... ish..."..... or "he went crazy on the cops"..... or "he got his.... his way"....

Now after reading these statements..... it might be easy to think I'm talking to ShaNeNe.... but I'm not.... these are college educated Master degreed women..... Some are successful entrepreneurs..... A few are *ahem* married....(with fantasies)......

See, Detroit asked a question.... I assumed about the "contradiction".... not about the quantity.... (I could be mistaken.... I haven't re-read it as I'm typing)..... and if you want to understand the contradiction..... then you have to first accept the possibility that a mind like this exists....

See when we go into these sessions..... I don't judge (although it is easy to do... clearly).... I just listen..... so I can understand..... and then I ask questions.... like "Well why don't you fantasize about Stanley O'Neal.... He went in and took over Merrill Lynch single handedly and threw out the 'old boy network'?" There's a Black Man in control.....

But the answer is the belief that somehow no matter how high some one rises in this world he "loses" some of himself to get there... so the answer is.... "Yeah.... but he took over 'Merril Lynch'....." Well I didn't understand what this meant at first..... But later I got it.... Merril Lynch is an established Wall Street firm with its own rules.... and makeup.... its not an original creation.... its not a brother "creating".... its a brother "taking over" and then "running" it.... better.... for the benefit of Black people? Nope.... For the betterment of WallStreet and "the firm"..... this kind of thiking comes out in statements like.... "Well what has he done for us lately?" All of this may seem like a contradiction....but there seems to be a crossing over of thoughts.... one thought is ...... wanting a man in control..... and the other is..... wanting a man who believes in the empowerment of Black people...... and apparently that view is not one where Black people exist in someone else's country bettering someone else's idea of reality.....

Even further.... most of women, if Stanley O'Neal wanted to go out with them... wouldn't hesitate to say okay..... would probably marry someone like him..... but what they "want" and what they "talk" about is different....

I am not saying that these women prefer a thug.... they just don't see what they're looking for any where else really..... and least not accessible.....

Hmmmm.... it's kind of like in a movie where the "bad boy" is the one that leads the revolution.....

I hope this comes out coherent... but I'm typing late again....


quote:
Just one more train of thought comment though:

If admiring thugs & rejecting educated men is the new "thing" for Black women, then George W. Bush must be beating off the sisters with a stick... ohsnap
lol
Not for women like this...... George Bush would be the enemy.....

Also, just a note.... these women are not desperate.... it's not a situation of their not being able to attract men..... like, Rowe, they do alright..... its the type of man that they are looking for....

And this is not all my friends.... sheesh! Just "some" of them..... but again.... the question was asked.... so I thought I'd share what I knew....



**** Disclaimer******* .... Sigh....

I Personally do not lust after thugs.... don't even fantasize about them!!!...

Well there was this one time....



Red Face



Just Kidding... Razz

Peace,
Virtue
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"Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree."
-detroit1



Im going to say this and bounce......

*I cant seem to keep my mouth closed* sck *sigh*



Anyway...here is another perspective.

After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.

These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)

A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.

Thats my two cents Smile
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
This is the bases of my argument. Why doesn't the "want" of many sistas reflect in the men they end up preferring to deal with?
Because they have a hard time finding him.... Many "hopefuls" are already married..... The others have one or the other unacceptable characteristics.... This doesn't mean that they will marry or date no one.... but in terms of what they "want" it really doesn't exist..... so they pick what's available and satisfy their cravings through their fantasies.... flings... or short-lived dates.... a little depressing... yes... but it happens none the less....


quote:
So does this explain why many women prefer to involve themselves with men of non-conformist type characteristics (de-values marriage, family, education, normal employment, etc.)?
I would assume so.... again... a little depressing... yes...

quote:
perhaps....this is a new concept to me; something to ponder on; but it still proves my original argument about the contrast between the complaints and actions of many sistas. Why complain about the lack of educated black men when in actuality, you have contempt for them?
I guess I agree with you.... there is a contrast.... But these sisters don't complain about the lack of educated men.... they are dismayed by the lack of strength, tenacity and staying power of holding the idea of doing for self and striving to create for self... they see in these men... on some level.... too much acceptance not enough drive or will to create not just something better to make life more comfortable... but to put us in our proper place... Rulership.... Radical... yes? But no one wants it... not truly.... in fact most men laugh at the idea.... because in truth they only see and are comfortable with the way things are run now... and with whom is running it.... and don't want to fight like chess players to create something new..... You see in these sessions it always comes out when we began discussing history and how we "used" to be..... and the possibilities of what we could be.....

Again.... its a twisted way to be.... but the psyche of this woman is one that is hurt and disappointed....

Now I haven't discussed my responses.... just their mind set....


quote:
I receive this as being "never satisfied".
Until there is change.... Yep... You are right.... won't be satisfied until they see the fire in the men that they are around..... perhaps later we can talk more about methods of changing this around.....

I'm being sincere here.... I don't necessarily agree with them.... I do understand it though...

Peace,
Virtue
The ultimate conflict I see in the scenario you describe is this:

To be willing to forge your own path, you (and by extension your family) have to be willing to sacrifice ALL of the trappings of traditional, established society. Go back and review some of the threads here about marriagable men. Number 1 & 2 criteria on most lists are income stability (ability to take care of his family) and a love of learning (manifested through college degrees). To want a man that bucks the system to make his own way, typically means foregoing 1 & 2, at least for some period of time. Are women prepared to sacrifice the stability of 1 & 2, to have a king who set the rules, a god who creates what he desires? I don't know, just positing the question.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
The ultimate conflict I see in the scenario you describe is this:

To be willing to forge your own path, you (and by extension your family) have to be willing to sacrifice ALL of the trappings of traditional, established society. Go back and review some of the threads here about marriagable men. Number 1 & 2 criteria on most lists are income stability (ability to take care of his family) and a love of learning (manifested through college degrees). To want a man that bucks the system to make his own way, typically means foregoing 1 & 2, at least for some period of time. Are women prepared to sacrifice the stability of 1 & 2, to have a king who set the rules, a god who creates what he desires? I don't know, just positing the question.
Aaaaahhhh Ddouble.... you are opening Pandora's box with me.... I tried not to interject too much of my own views in this topic.... but it's really hard to.... I wanted to open others up to a view that they may not be privy to.....

Also, my experience is different from Qty's whose experience with women is that they are "intimidated" and "insecure" around the educated successful brother..... while my experience is that the women I'm around tend to view them as "weak" in some way....


Bottom line.... The questions you ask are valid ones....

Financial stability is achieved for many women who embody the thug life.... it's through illegal means... but many send their childrend to private school and live a middle class as others do...... you'd never know though.... however if you ask about physical security... and legal security... well....they'd probably give you a blank stare and not even try to justify it.... but say that that's the price you have to pay.... but that's only one sister I know.... the rest don't get that involved with a thug.... he's a fling... (Lawd! No! I don't hang around hussies.... just happen to know a few on the DL laugh)

As far as learning goes.... Oh... My.... Goodness..... Please don't hate me for saying so.... but the most interesting and intellectual and thoroughly engaging conversations I have ever had were with brothers who read on their own.... hang out with professors and challenge them constantly.... but that's just reading and observing.... but it does have flavor....I tend to love meeting "Good Will Hunting" types.... there is a wordly insight that comes with their genius and an edge... that can't be beat.....

That's just me.... ummmm they would say... they don't care.... that's not why they got with them in the first place....


** Oh by the way.... you do know that in history there are many accounts of women who not only stay with men who buck the system and sacrifice mightily for it.... but initiate it.... there are many women that deem the goal worth it all..... However it's easier to see where you stand when your oppressor is hurting you openly..... harder to do when he's allowing you some footing......*** That's my revolutionary two cents

---though I'm not equating "real" struggle with a thug life.... just that the mentality of some woman who wants to sacrifice is there in the same degree that it is with the thug whom she is with.... You have to understand what I'm referring to here is the crumb of power that these sisters are trying to hold on to.... because they see it no where else.... That doesn't make it worthy or something we should follow.... but it does exist... so its a kind of thinking we should know about....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Anyway...here is another perspective. After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.
These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)
A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.
Thats my two cents


Very interesting. Are you saying they (some black women) would rather deal with a thug than a percieved sucess? Why do they not fear the thug when that lifestyle seems to have more dangers associated with it? Is there a feeling of not measuring up to set/certain standards?
I have not heard of sucessful blackmen discarding women " just because" or as a means to increase power.

Sorry for so many questions but this is really an interesting theory/observation.


catch
Sorry... One more thing... I just want to be perfectly clear....

1. I DO NOT WANT OR ADVOCATE DATING A THUG!!! UNEMPLOYED, NON-AMBITIOUS, CRIMINAL, LAZY, UNINTELLIGENT BROTHER....

2. I AM STATING THE MENTALITY OF OTHERS THAT I HAVE NOT JUDGED.... Therefore it may seem like a taking their position when I am not.... But I understand it so I can explain it.... So please do not PM me about this.... Thanks...

Sorry to interrupt ocatchings... I want to hear more about what QTY has to say also....


Peace,
Virtue
Interesting input V - In several threads, the men here clearly stated your point: Degrees are not the only manifestation of intelligence. We were quickly chided for even forwarding such a notion! Degrees were seen as a sure(r) way to create stability for wife & family.

IMO, The criminal's life is not stable, he is always one mistake away from not being able to provide for his family, much like the 9 to 5 joe.

You brought up the trap of refering to history in regard to what we were. Consequently, I'll clarify my question:

Are Black women today willing to sacrifice stability for their god/king?
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Interesting input V - In several threads, the men here clearly stated your point: Degrees are not the only manifestation of intelligence. We were quickly chided for even forwarding such a notion! Degrees were seen as a sure(r) way to create stability for wife & family.
Well now... brother... sigh....

A Degree... in this world signifies someone who is marketable to this established system and thus more likely to offer security through the likelihood of job placement....

"He has the ability to provide some financial security"....

Just because a brother is intelligent does not present the likelihood that he will use his intelligence to forge a way in this world..... those "Good Will Hunting" brothers I spoke of? Are usually broke.... I just happen to not care because I wasn't looking for anything from them in terms of a relationship....just good mental stimulation...

However, a brother with a Degree.... well... let me say this... a Degree is not a symbol of intelligence.... its a symbol of developed skill, a pattern of thinking, and acceptance of the market system.... most people go towards higher education to get a job.... not to contemplate and pontificate on the world around them and certainly not to challenge... though this happens anyway.....

A brother without a Degree is more risky in terms of financial stability....


quote:
IMO, The criminal's life is not stable, he is always one mistake away from not being able to provide for his family, much like the 9 to 5 joe.
Yes.....I agree... But the 9 to 5 Joe will offer a certain type of comfortable lifestyle while they're on edge.... a quality of life that many deem worth it.....

quote:
You brought up the trap of refering to history in regard to what we were. Consequently, I'll clarify my question:

Are Black women today willing to sacrifice stability for their god/king?
That depends on the woman you're asking.....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Anyway...here is another perspective. After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.
These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)
A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.
Thats my two cents


Very interesting. Are you saying they (some black women) would rather deal with a thug than a percieved sucess? Why do they not fear the thug when that lifestyle seems to have more dangers associated with it? Is there a feeling of not measuring up to set/certain standards?
I have not heard of sucessful blackmen discarding women " just because" or as a means to increase power.

Sorry for so many questions but this is really an interesting theory/observation.


catch



There are so many different 'types' of men, that women shouldnt deal with. A thug is just one of many.

With that being said.......most women, look for men that are financially stable, and able to support a home, family, etc. As virtue mentioned, these educated black men have degrees, and can move into well paying jobs. A lot of these brothers actually use their established lives, to pull women/friends. Their status, in the community is above all others.

Since women find this attractive (especially those women, who has worked to have in life).....a lot of women 'line up' for their attention and these men abuse this situation. Their behavior is brash, and unappealing.

You now have, a lot of sistas that have seen this process, or been a part of it...........and when meeting an educated brotha, she has negative feelings, and doesnt want to deal with him. Therefore that wall is standing there....

Example. I work as an intern. The second i meet a nice guy, and he tells me hes an attorney.......i get this sick feeling, that hes 'after' something, or he will mistreat me.......and i move on, because of this fear.

I guess women, have to make sure that we dont put all educated men in one bucket, but its hard. Frown


Again.....this is just my opinion. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
...And a question was asked so I thought I shed light on what I know actual women are saying....

a god.... heavy word.... yes.... loaded with meaning.....

but these women aren't crack pots.....
some of them use this word..... because of the strength attached to it.....

This shows me the importance of certain qualities....

This also shows me the desperation to see this aspect of manhood played out......

So much so..... that they'll even turn towards a thug to receive it.....

Peace,
Virtue


Virtue, thanks for articulating such a foreigh (to me) point of view - theirs, not yours. Wink

Time is tight for me today so let me cut to the chase (I don't have time to read all the other responses, so apologies for that)...

First, just to clarify - you are intimating that these women date thugs because they see thugs - and their relationship with them - as say, 'sticking their middle finger up' at societal controls - in particular (or exclusively) at white priviledge and control?

If that's the case, I can almost see why women who are more educated do this - because although I am guessing - perhaps despite all their education... as black women they still feel a lack of control in their lives, and feel disenfranchised.

Two questions please...

1. are these women aware that is what they are doing?
2. and, if so, are they also aware how detriental this behaviour/choice (conscious or otherwise) is to them, their potential mate, their community and their sense of self-worth?
.
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Wouldn't he be entering the world of nonexistence due to the notion that many black women just can't seem to bring themselves to recognize and acknowledge the few established brothers that are already around? To exchange this means to loose the sexual favor of the black woman. Many self-loafing men would make a change overnight if there were a sudden shift in the preference of most black women from anti-social thugs to educated, clean-cut upright men.


So let's sum up your argument here. As far as you're concerned, it's women's fault that 800,000 Black men are incarcerated. It's women's fault that some Black men subscribe to a thug mentality and participate in thug behavior. It's women's fault that some Black men refuse to acknowledge and be responsible for the children that they father. And ultimately it's women's fault that a disproportionate number of Black men are not applying to colleges. All of these issues are the Black women's fault. And according to the "radical" ideas that you've proposed, if the overwhelming majority of Black women would simply bumrush the few established brothas that are already around, these issues would be solved. This is your argument. This is your solution.

Ok Um, Brother Detroit, here's an idea that's truly radical. Ready? This may blow your mind, so may want to sit down for this one. Try accepting responsibility for your actions. Try being accountable for the decisions that YOU make rather than blaming everyone else, least of all, "women" for your errors and problems. I know it will take some time to digest this "radical" idea, but just let it sink in.
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quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Your statement is under the assumption that people (in this case black women) mean exactly what they say. Maybe they complain just for the sake of complaining (and Mike knows this, but he's getting paid). I don't give people as much credit as you do. I like to weigh peoples voiced concerns against their actions/behavior. That is why I used the term cog. dis. to explain this contradiction.


Don't let one sista's conjured-up explanation mislead you into thinking that the judgements you've made about Black women are accurate. The subjective judgements that you're making about Black women are not based on facts, but your own personal observations, which perhaps, reveals something about the type of women to whom you are attracted. As I've said before, I don't date thugs, and I have never been attracted to thugs. My parents would never even have allowed me to bring a "thug" into our home. Therefore, you are conversing with one of many Black woman whose actions are in line with our beliefs. Now would you consider me an exception, an anomaly, an aberration of some sort? If so, then produce documented evidence proving that being "cognitive dissonant" is a psychological problem that plagues the majority of Black women. Women on this site have done our research. We have supplied articles, published research, statistics, and data supporting the arguments that we've been making about the scarcity of successful Black men. Where is your evidence, proving that the majority of Black women's inability to find successful Black men is a result of their being attracted to thugs?
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...


Awesome post 'Virtue'. I am somewhere in the middle of your 'theory'. Definately not interested in the thug; although I did meet a 'Good Will Hunting' guy several years ago @ Southern U. (Baton Rouge), and I tell you, it was 'touch n' go'; he was a math genius, but had that 'dangerous, 'scary' edge', that my gut instinct threw shade at. Wow! But, I totally get the need/want for not necessarily a God', but someone, who, as you so eloquently stated here:

"I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits..."""
----------------------------

excellent!
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...


Awesome post 'Virtue'. I am somewhere in the middle of your 'theory'. Definately not interested in the thug; although I did meet a 'Good Will Hunting' guy several years ago @ Southern U. (Baton Rouge), and I tell you, it was 'touch n' go'; he was a math genius, but had that 'dangerous, 'scary' edge', that my gut instinct threw shade at. Wow! But, I totally get the need/want for not necessarily a God', but someone, who, as you so eloquently stated here:

"I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits..."""
----------------------------

excellent!
Thanks! You know you made me think of another example.... If you saw the movie "Crash" there is a scene where Terrence Howard's character's wife is molested by a police officer in front him..... and he does nothing and feels powerless..... They are obviously well to do.... upper middle class....

There's also a scene where Matt Dillon's character saves Howard's wife.... after she has been degraded by him... and watched as her husband was emasculated before him..... it was He that "saved" her from a car crash... He risked his life to do it.....

Howard's reaction is to rage against society.... but it's too late really.... the damage is done...

Interesting....

Successful Black Man-- Emasculated....
Lower class White Man-- Image of a Hero...
Thug-- What the frustrated and powerless Black Man becomes to "feel" like he has control over his destiny.....

Ask Terrence Howard's character if he thinks that just rising to the top of this society is enough....

And I'm simply speaking from my experience with women who feel the same way....

You happened to bring up a topic I discuss often....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
Virtue, thanks for articulating such a foreigh (to me) point of view - theirs, not yours. Wink

Time is tight for me today so let me cut to the chase (I don't have time to read all the other responses, so apologies for that)...

First, just to clarify - you are intimating that these women date thugs because they see thugs - and their relationship with them - as say, 'sticking their middle finger up' at societal controls - in particular (or exclusively) at white priviledge and control?
Hmmmm... sticking their finger? I might not describe quite like that.... more along the lines of Thugs retaining a measure of their "manhood".... that has tried to be stripped away by this society...

quote:
If that's the case, I can almost see why women who are more educated do this - because although I am guessing - perhaps despite all their education... as black women they still feel a lack of control in their lives, and feel disenfranchised.

Two questions please...

1. are these women aware that is what they are doing?
Sometimes... Not always...

quote:
2. and, if so, are they also aware how detriental this behaviour/choice (conscious or otherwise) is to them, their potential mate, their community and their sense of self-worth?
.
They would say giving in to this society is much more damaging to their sense of self worth.... they would rather work with their brother who is a thug and is a man... than work with the people who enslaved us or those trying to fit in well with those that subjugate us.....when they are aware... When they aren't they would say no... I just want to feel like for a moment.... everything is the way it should be.... A thug, again, is not a long term commitment.... they are usually flings.... like a drug habit.... so no, they don't care about the things that you mention (self-worth etc.) they want to feel good for a time...

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I just dipped my head into this thread. And I have one word: Confused
It's okay... It's not as bad as you think.... Smile

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
If the explanation provided above truly describes the mindset of even a small subset of sisters, it is dispicable. That is the worst cop-out.


Either the worst cop-out or the damnest piece of honesty I've ever witnessed in my life...
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
[
So let's sum up your argument here. As far as you're concerned, it's women's fault that 800,000 Black men are incarcerated. It's women's fault that some Black men subscribe to thug mentality and participate in thug behavior. It's women's fault for why some....


Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.


I can accept this response, but what's even more vexing--and perhaps you can help me to understand--is why don't these men who are always complaining about some women's attraction to thugs take heed to their own advice? Why don't they make better choices in women? If your relationship with a woman ends because ultimately she prefers to be with a misfit, then she is not a person that you want to be involved with in the first place! What's worse, if you find yourself consistently involved with street women, then I think a self-evaluation is in order.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
I AM STATING THE MENTALITY OF OTHERS THAT I HAVE NOT JUDGED.... Therefore it may seem like a taking their position when I am not.... But I understand it so I can explain it.



Sister Virtue, even though brother Detroit's thread is loaded with sweeping generalizations made about Black women, you should be credited for at least answering his question. However, unfortunately, growing up, some Black women had thugs for fathers, brothers, and uncles. Therefore, for some women, attracting and establishing relationships with professional men can be a difficult challenge. Think about this: How would you know how to relate to so-called "professional men," or just professional people in general, if growing up you've never seen examples of these type of people in your community? You've never seen such people come into your home, have dinner with you and your family members? How would you even begin to know how to communicate and conduct yourself in environments where professional people are commonly found? No one is willing to ponder these questions. Everyone prefers to blame rather than discuss the deep underlying issues that cause some people to fall by the wayside.
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Sadly, I hate to admit it, but I have sisters, female cousins and aunts who exhibit the mind-set & behavior that Virtue is talking about...they view men as either "Geeky" or "Gansta"; they acknowledge this, and make no apologies for it. They seem oblivious to how hypocritical they are, though: when black women achieves academic & socio-economical success, she demands applause & attention from men (that's fair); but when black men achieve this same level of success, they're considered arrogant, conceited, less "black" & less "manly", than that "thug" name Omar who only claim to fame is strutting & grabbing his dick; and my female relatives ALWAYS bitch & moan about how hard it is to find a "good man", yet oblivious to the fact that they are the ones that keep getting in their own way: "I always see Omar with some woman, he triflin' but he cute tho. (Smiling)He stupit...yeah I'd talk to him. ...Michael? He's...nice. He graduted, already?! He's a sharp brotha. He's aw'ight but I need a man with "style" & "strunf" Roll Eyes.

You just can't win.
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
And my female relatives ALWAYS bitch & moan about how hard it is to find a "good man", yet oblivious to the fact that they are the ones that keep getting in their own way: "I always see Omar with some woman, he triflin' but he cute tho. (Smiling)He stupit...yeah I'd talk to him. ...Michael? He's...nice. He graduted, already?! He's a sharp brotha. He's aw'ight but I need a man with "style" & "strunf" Roll Eyes.


You know these are the same issues that we are dealing with in the education field concerning some Black youth's attitude toward education. Many African-American youth, particularly, African-American males, when they reach a certain age, fear that by showing an interest in education, they will lose respect from their peers. Unfortunately, in the eyes of some Black youth, purusing an education and subsequent employment is viewed as an act of a "sell-out." I can't say that I don't know where they pick up these attitudes because after reading some of the views being expressed in AA.org, I can see where they get them: FROM ADULTS. Right in this thread, we have some men who disapprove of women's interest in thugs and then other men who disapprove of women's interest in professional men. So we can't win for losing! But if we want to change our youth's attitudes about education and professionalism, they will need better conceptions of success.
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quote:
Originally posted by Max:
but when black men achieve this same level of success, they're considered arrogant, conceited, less "black" & less "manly", than that "thug" name Omar who only claim to fame is strutting & grabbing his dick;


I have experienced this from some (and I stress some) professional women. It is strange isn't it?

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