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To ddouble: Sister Rowe is looking down the UNOI path. Assertions without proof are what UNOI is all about. I know, I've dealt with these people for over thirty years. Closed-minded, dictatorial, Biased (Racists), egomaniacal and mentally myopic. They sell enlightenment, what you get is entrapment. (This is why so many Black elitist"”Black snobs"”fall so easily under their enfluence.)

You can keep your UNOI.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Interesting commentary - I'd like to hear more regarding your opinion of the organization. From what I gather the socio-political purpose appears to be worthwhile. The religious aspects seem to be quite different from orthodox Islam (and even the Nation of Islam) however.
Just a note..... the UNOI is not NOI..... but as in all things there are many key similarities between all three.......

I will not give my opinion here.... because you asked for Thayfen's opinion...... but there is a wealth of information in terms of people's opinions on the net and otherwise....

The best source is to listen or go for yourself.... not for recruitment.... but as in a lot of things in our community ...... people tend to latch on to a perception and simply feed themselves the opinions that feed their preconceived notions..... Unfortunately.... just like with speeches..... people usually.... not always...... have been fed stereotypes, sound bites..... or they simply refuse to listen to any thing different than their long held views..... fine.... but unfortunate nonetheless....


Peace,
Virtue
Why does it seem that all of our women (or a goodly portion of them) are looking to these strict, authoritarian (and paternalistic) religious organizations (whether Christian or Islamic matters not to me) which are basically throwbacks to bygone eras?

To feel good in the security of the structure?

Anyway, I have the same response to any organization whose main requirement is that I - a male descendant of slaves - "submit" my intellect to some other man: they can go hang themselves.
It disturbs me that on every side I see * systems of control * on the rise: systems meant to keep us under control: whether that be the prison industrial complex, the military industrial complex, or these loopy religious movements: it's the same thing...

And what's much worse is that we're willingly running into the arms of those same systems...

Even if one resists - as I do - to make matters worse, our own women are demanding we submit to this control in some form or other...

As descendants of slave we must learn to be free, how to exercise our will, or to not execise our will, to strive for a goal, or not strive for a goal - in short, how to control ourselves - and how to freely choose our destiny...

Anything else is inadequate.

Just MHO
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Why does it seem that all of our women (or a goodly portion of them) are looking to these strict, authoritarian (and paternalistic) religious organizations (whether Christian or Islamic matters not to me) which are basically throwbacks to bygone eras?
all? .... there are plenty of women left that do not want structure or an accountable moral environment.....

quote:
To feel good in the security of the structure?
Whether we like it or not... we are all in some sort of structure.... even when the structure is perceived as "free".... one will have submitted themselves to an idea... a way of life... and usually that one will resist existing outside of the self-imposed comfortable parameters..... someone looking on the outside of all that supposed freedom could call it a rigid structure as well.... one that does not consider the moral structure viable..

quote:
Anyway, I have the same response to any organization whose main requirement is that I - a male descendant of slaves - "submit" my intellect to some other man: they can go hang themselves.
Such harsh words..... Is there a paternalistic man forcing your hand? I doubt it... you don't seem like the type to submit to that..... but ....would you consider someone who asked you to consider an alternative lifestyle forcing you to "submit"? Or would you give them the benefit of the doubt before you told them to go "hang themselves"?


It seems to me a little "control" is a good thing.....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Why does it seem that all of our women (or a goodly portion of them) are looking to these strict, authoritarian (and paternalistic) religious organizations (whether Christian or Islamic matters not to me) which are basically throwbacks to bygone eras?
all? .... there are plenty of women left that do not want structure or an accountable moral environment.....

quote:
To feel good in the security of the structure?
Whether we like it or not... we are all in some sort of structure.... even when the structure is perceived as "free".... one will have submitted themselves to an idea... a way of life... and usually that one will resist existing outside of the self-imposed comfortable parameters..... someone looking on the outside of all that supposed freedom could call it a rigid structure as well.... one that does not consider the moral structure viable..

quote:
Anyway, I have the same response to any organization whose main requirement is that I - a male descendant of slaves - "submit" my intellect to some other man: they can go hang themselves.
Such harsh words..... Is there a paternalistic man forcing your hand? I doubt it... you don't seem like the type to submit to that..... but ....would you consider someone who asked you to consider an alternative lifestyle forcing you to "submit"? Or would you give them the benefit of the doubt before you told them to go "hang themselves"?


It seems to me a little "control" is a good thing.....

Peace,
Virtue


I have only one thing to say to you: I think you know me well enough - assuming that I'm an honest man - does it seem to you that I'm out of control and need some outsider to rein me in?
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I have only one thing to say to you: I think you know me well enough
Apparently not.....

quote:
- assuming that I'm an honest man - does it seem to you that I'm out of control and need some outsider to rein me in?
I can only give a protracted opinion..... I do not know you well enough to say that much about you..... I'm surprised that you think I would.....

This dialogue is not about whether you "need" anything....

It was, I thought, about preconceived notions of certain organizations in our community.....

But, to be fair and answer your question....
the honest answer is "I don't know".... because I don't know you that well....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I have only one thing to say to you: I think you know me well enough
Apparently not.....

quote:
- assuming that I'm an honest man - does it seem to you that I'm out of control and need some outsider to rein me in?
I can only give a protracted opinion..... I do not know you well enough to say that much about you..... I'm surprised that you think I would.....

This dialogue is not about whether you "need" anything....

It was, I thought, about preconceived notions of certain organizations in our community.....

But, to be fair and answer your question....
the honest answer is "I don't know".... because I don't know you that well....


Peace,
Virtue


Whatever...
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Just remember: Those photos you saw came from the son of high school drop outs. Ex-janitor, ex-resident in housing projects, currently a Ph.D.

You don't know me well enough?: The topic is correct: Black women and cognitive dissonance: That's the name of the thread. I'm right on topic actually...
Okay....

I do not mean to offend you...

You were attacking an institution I hold dear....

I try not to attack anyone or put them on the spot regarding their beliefs or things that they hold dear....

I would not....

Please let's not continue to argue...



Peace,
Virtue
Listen people: I apologize"”my personal experience with http://unitednationofislam.com/ lends to me a strong bias. There are many of their members whom have benefited from their association to these people.

I, personally, may consider UNOI a cult, but many others do not. This is their right. A right I and many of my friends and family have fought for...I have no right to disparage this...organization.

If you have a moment, you may want to read up on their activities"”but for me, it's not my dance.

I apologize for taking you off-topic.
I have read on UNOI thayfen & virtue - I wasn't looking for a primer from either of you - just further elaboration on earlier statements. Too many people make matters of faith untouchable in critical discussion. If anyone here is too sensitive to participate in this portion of the discussion, he/she can willingly bow out. All opinions are welcome.

virtue- Do you think this:
quote:
all? .... there are plenty of women left that do not want structure or an accountable moral environment.....

is a fair statement? Are you suggesting that UNOI (or similiar groups) is the only way to acquire "structure or an accountable moral environment"?

Also, this submission to structure seems contrary to the notion of a god creating whatever he desires. Please reconcile the discrepancy for me?
hat

I am in sync with this HonestBrother:
quote:
As descendants of slave we must learn to be free, how to exercise our will, or to not execise our will, to strive for a goal, or not strive for a goal - in short, how to control ourselves - and how to freely choose our destiny...

Anything else is inadequate.

tfro
Darn - I made a bad edit - Oh well, the key part of my post is still here!
Last edited {1}
quote:
It disturbs me that on every side I see * systems of control * on the rise: systems meant to keep us under control: whether that be the prison industrial complex, the military industrial complex, or these loopy religious movements: it's the same thing...


We should all wish for systems of control. It is not control which is the problem, it is control which runs contrary to the natural desires of those striving to be civilized, which creats the problem. Humanity has always created law, and enforcement agencies to ensure security. Are you not under the control of America? Are you not happy to know that someone in this nations seeks to control the crime rate?

You want control...

Also are you suggesting that the NOI is part of the group of "Loopy religious movements"?

quote:
Even if one resists - as I do - to make matters worse, our own women are demanding we submit to this control in some form or other...


What man would wish to live, but not stand up when challenged to defend his women, or even himself? Every man should wish to be a part of something bigger than himself...Our women should demand that we take part in "the struggle"..White women should make the same demand on white men who live in this country....

Is there something wrong with service?

quote:
As descendants of slave we must learn to be free, how to exercise our will, or to not execise our will, to strive for a goal, or not strive for a goal - in short, how to control ourselves - and how to freely choose our destiny...


As descendants of sleves we must not choose fierce independance over common sense. Our enemy was united when they decided to attack our native land. We must unite if we are ever going to throw off the yoke of this unfortunate episode in our history.

If you do not agree with any of the existing structures, are you prepared to offer an alternative?


Kai
I will not answer your post in detail since it puts a lot of words into my mouth. I do not object to service. I do not object to protecting my woman or myself.

I do object to giving lip service or intellectual assent to a number of religious doctrines which have nothing directly to do with service, protection, or unity. For example,

12. WE BELIEVE that Allah (God) appeared in the Person of Master W. Fard Muhammad, July, 1930; the long-awaited "Messiah" of the Christians and the "Mahdi" of the Muslims.

And don't ask me what other doctrines... the above was taken directly from the NOI website...

I can go fetch more if you want other examples...
I'm not criticizing individual rights to believe whatever they want. That's not my purpose.

I just believe it absurd and even suicidal (from a group perspective) to rush into these religious groups and demand everyone else believe this stuff too or else they're unclean, or unworthy, or not as evolved or something.

IT IS UNNECESSARILY DIVISIVE OF THE BLACK COLLECTIVE
Agreed HB -

People, please defend your position without setting up strawman arguments.

What is wrong with HB's statements. How did NOI, UNOI, and the Five Percent Nation come to be? Disagreement in the methodology of acheiving a common goal. Unless you consider one or more of the following: Minister Farrakhan, Solomon (Royall), AND Clarence 13X (RIP) to be wrong, why challenge HonestBrother for having a different take?

The concepts of service, unity, & protection may be used by a social or religious group, but such organizations are not the sole custodians of such concepts.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm not criticizing individual rights to believe whatever they want. That's not my purpose.

I just believe it absurd and even suicidal (from a group perspective) to rush into these religious groups and demand everyone else believe this stuff too or else they're unclean, or unworthy, or not as evolved or something.

IT IS UNNECESSARILY DIVISIVE OF THE BLACK COLLECTIVE


This is the point I was making to Rowe earlier...
bump
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
virtue- Do you think this:
quote:
all? .... there are plenty of women left that do not want structure or an accountable moral environment.....

is a fair statement? Are you suggesting that UNOI (or similiar groups) is the only way to acquire "structure or an accountable moral environment"?

Also, this submission to structure seems contrary to the notion of a god creating whatever he desires. Please reconcile the discrepancy for me?
hat

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