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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.


I can accept this response, but what's even more vexing--and perhaps you can help me to understand--is why don't these men who are always complaining about some women's attraction to thugs take heed to their own advice?


Personally, I've only directly experienced this once (as bad that was). I have indeed dated a variety of women from different backgrounds.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
but when black men achieve this same level of success, they're considered arrogant, conceited, less "black" & less "manly", than that "thug" name Omar who only claim to fame is strutting & grabbing his dick;


I have experienced this from some (and I stress some) professional women. It is strange isn't it?


It's worse than strange brother Honestbrother, its quite sad actually. It's sad that some Black people, in the 21st century, still cannot identify with success.
I'm quite accustomed to many black women going for the "thug" type whether he's a real thug or fashionable thug (which is normally the case), so I don't necessarily disapprove of women getting with them; I respect and appreciate a black woman's right to date/fuck whomever she wants...it's when this "strong, intelligent black woman" choses to ignore the consequences of dealing with these "thug" types-that's what I dissaprove of; when shit hits the fan in this type of relationship, she comes down with a wicked case of Cognitive Dissonance - blaming everybody from the priest, to the milkman, the clerk at Pathmark, the bus-driver and the paper-boy long before taking responsibilty for her own actions for getting involved with Mr. Thug-life. She stresses her independence to date/fuck whomever she choses, and expect everybody to respect that right (that's fair); yet, when she sees me holding hands with a with a white girl name "Becky" (or some spanish girl name "Jaunita") she ignores my right to date/fuck whomever I want, and decides to "tell it like it is" saying I'm full of "self-hatred" & full of shit?! bang

Yes, HonestBrother, it is strange (cue Twilight Zone Theme song) Eek
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
She stresses her independence to date/fuck whomever she choses, and expect everybody to respect that right (that's fair); yet, when she sees me holding hands with a with a white girl name "Becky" (or some spanish girl name "Jaunita") she ignores my right to date/fuck whomever I want, and decides to "tell it like it is" saying I'm full of "self-hatred" & full of shit?! bang

Ahh... yes... and the wheel spins again... Frown
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Sister Virtue
Sister Rowe.... How are you? I miss the picture in your avatar of the woman in ceremonial dress and makeup... she was beautiful....

quote:
even though brother Detroit's thread is loaded with sweeping generalizations made about Black women, you should be credited for at least answering his question.
Dear Sister.... I used to be a philosohpy major and English major... If I wanted to pick apart his argument.... I could....

But I sensed pain in his question.... a yearining and confusion.... I decided not to intellectually debate him.... but to offer comfort in understanding.... I simply wanted him to know that his experiences have reasons.... and there are many varied reasons.... mine is one of many....


--Qty's experience is one where some Intelligent Black Women in some twisted logic may actually feel safer with a thug... or someone unemployed because they are intimidated by Successful Black Men.....

--You just described how some women turn to thugs because that is all they have known....

The point is.... he's not off... we are human... we have varied experiences.... no matter how painful..... and in our community of Black women.... we have different tastes, motives... and choices.... He is a man... looking at a phenomenon around him and doesn't understand it.... I simply was hoping to shed a bit of light for him.... not lower the image of Black Women or generalize us.... There are many beautiful Black sisters on this board that are a testament that we are more rich and varied than others may give us credit for... I think the brothers here know this and respect it......


quote:
Everyone prefers to blame rather than discuss the deep underlying issues that cause some people to fall by the wayside.
I see it less as blame... more as "venting" and in all honesty... "trusting" that there will be someone here to help sort through this with him.... I could be wrong.... but nonetheless I don't feel he was blaming Black Women for anything.... People tend to speak in generalizations..... the conundrum is that this isn't always the intention... so I give others the benefit of the doubt.... everyone's true colors show eventually.... and then I change or not change accordingly....



Peace,
Virtue
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quote:

Cognitive dissonance is a perceived inconsistency between two cognitions in which the person believes one thing but then acts in a different way from what they believed. Or holds other beliefs which conflct with the first.


I should point out that "cognitive dissonance" is a term with a much wider field of applicability than the mating habits of particular people. The definition given above is more or less accurate. And we all suffer from cognitive dissonance on some level.
Good topic detroit1 - Don't let a few haughty, bulldog responses discourage you. Of all places, Black men and women should be able to honestly discuss the phenomena around them at AA.org, especially when it pertains to Black folk. Instead of sweeping things under the rug & denying they happen, we need more honest answers like virtue's. We may not always like the answers, but ultimately we appreciate them.


If anything, detroit1 is asking the sisters here to talk to other sisters, since no one here is guilty of the behavior described. Just like we (men) are constantly implored to get our acts together (even if we aren't guilty of the behavior described by women here) and talk to our wayward brothers, we can ask the same of you.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

Yes, among other issues, this topic is a heavily debated issue in Washington, DC. In fact, a popular radio host by the name of Michael Baisden discusses this issue quite often on his radio program. And each time that he brings this issue up ("Single Black Women"), a swarm of Black women call in to voice their concerns. I'm only 29 years old, and right now, I'm doing OK in terms of dating. But after listening to all of these women well into their 30's and 40's calling and complaining, frankly, I'm beginning to get a little worried.



women should understand that as they age, their desirability in the dating/meet market goes down [for the most part]. Women simply have to change their strategy in their manhunting.
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
He is a man... looking at a phenomenon around him and doesn't understand it.... I simply was hoping to shed a bit of light for him.... not lower the image of Black Women or generalize us.... There are many beautiful Black sisters on this board that are a testament that we are more rich and varied than others may give us credit for... I think the brothers here know this and respect it......


Virtue
Your ability to see clearly and intuitively into the nature of this complex
issue is undeniable.
---------CONFLICT THEORY------------

I am beginning to see a new power struggle; originally, it was/is between the
established black man (representing patriarchy or what's left of it) and the
feminist ideology of the modern black woman.

Now I see a struggle between the established black man and the non-conforming
black thug; all for the favor of the black woman.

It will take an aggressive and firm foot to shatter the misconception that thugs
are deserving of the black woman's favor.

Question is how important is it to the traditional, structured black man that he
be number one in the eye of all black women?

I don't believe that the favoritism many black women have for thugs is sincere
and genuine. To me, this preference is out of pure spite and defiance of the black
Patriarch (past, present and future).
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
If anything, detroit1 is asking the sisters here to talk to other sisters, since no one here is guilty of the behavior described. Just like we (men) are constantly implored to get our acts together (even if we aren't guilty of the behavior described by women here) and talk to our wayward brothers, we can ask the same of you.


Very good good point ddouble! tfro
Hey, Viking, what can I say, this is the type of world we live in, and I'm only refering to the black women that are like my female relatives & Virtue's friends: black women who are the SOURCE of their own CD, but too immature to own up to it.

We blacks have a history of WANTING to see black men occupy higher stations in the world for the sole purpose of inspiring us to do just as good or better...also, to prove the hordes of racist naysayers wrong. Let me ask you all a question, how many times have this happen to you: whenever you'd witnessed a matter of consequence taking place (be it in the corporate world, politics or science etc) wouldn't there always be another black person that nudge you and say (under their breath): "Notice there ain't no black people there, right" or "Where da brothas" (then you both would give each other *that look*)?

To rid ourselves of this tired-ass, self-defeating scenerio, black men had to prove that they are just as good as, just as smart as, just as competent as and just as creative as...it's fuckin annoying when these very same achievements are used AGAINST black men in a negative way, especially by black women (like my relatives) who CONSTANTLY bitch & moan about good-man shortages, man-crises and supposedly lousy dating-pools filled with UNATTRACTIVE, UNEMPLOYED, UNEDUCATED, UNAMBITIOUS black men who "ain't about shit".


"Cognitive Dissonance" is a clever sounding clinical name, but in lay terms it's really just a cute way of saying (a black person's) social ineptitude generated from the fear of rejection, followed by a BRUTAL REALITY-CHECK (where he/she is forced to evaluate & acknowledge where they REALLY stand in the black social strata).

My Prescription: Grow the fuck up, stop getting in your own way, and learn the kind of social skills that are conducive to the type of love/social life you so desire (men & women alike). C'mon!!
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.


I can accept this response, but what's even more vexing--and perhaps you can help me to understand--is why don't these men who are always complaining about some women's attraction to thugs take heed to their own advice? Why don't they make better choices in women? If your relationship with a woman ends because ultimately she prefers to be with a misfit, then she is not a person that you want to be involved with in the first place! What's worse, if you find yourself consistently involved with street women, then I think a self-evaluation is in order.


Aint that the truth....that is why that it is my life's goal to avoid with a passion only matched by my desire to be a great pathologist, sistas who share or strongly hold onto the idealology of the ideal god/thug man....it is a futile idea bread out of childish notions that should have been discarded a long time ago....and it entails nothing but anguish for guys like me...So, Rowe, your suggestion is well taken and actually has been acted upon over the last several years.
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
I'm quite accustomed to many black women going for the "thug" type whether he's a real thug or fashionable thug (which is normally the case), so I don't necessarily disapprove of women getting with them; I respect and appreciate a black woman's right to date/fuck whomever she wants...it's when this "strong, intelligent black woman" choses to ignore the consequences of dealing with these "thug" types-that's what I dissaprove of; when shit hits the fan in this type of relationship, she comes down with a wicked case of Cognitive Dissonance - blaming everybody from the priest, to the milkman, the clerk at Pathmark, the bus-driver and the paper-boy long before taking responsibilty for her own actions for getting involved with Mr. Thug-life. She stresses her independence to date/fuck whomever she choses, and expect everybody to respect that right (that's fair); yet, when she sees me holding hands with a with a white girl name "Becky" (or some spanish girl name "Jaunita") she ignores my right to date/fuck whomever I want, and decides to "tell it like it is" saying I'm full of "self-hatred" & full of shit?! bang

Yes, HonestBrother, it is strange (cue Twilight Zone Theme song) Eek


My sentiments exactly....
I understand where Detroit1 is coming from...I live in Detroit, and the situation is a bit different than in other regions of the U.S.

Yes, there are SOME Black Women who make bad choices in their relationships and lives. As there are Black men who do the same...I grew up in a negative environment, and had to contend with the "negative-types".

Over the years, I've actually helped about twenty of these people (fifteen male, five female) to get their stuff together.

There were certain truths I've come to accept:

1) The universe is that which it is; not what we want it to be. Improvement takes time, hard work and dedication,
2) The challenge is to be the best individual you can be.
3) It is better to try and fail, than to never try at all"”the true failure is in never making the attempt.
4) You can sit on the side-lines of life if you wish to, but in doing so you lose the right to gripe.
5) When ever you see a person for the first time, one must remember that there's more to that individual's life than the moment when you first see them.
6) This is true for all. Yes, even the white guy in the BMW...He has to make payments on that car, and that house, and that suit and all the other stuff this society forces upon him. Most U.S. citizens are one payday away from disaster. The time/energy one spends hating is put to better use building one's life and improving one's situation.
7) Not all women are evil (I just had the bad luck of attracting negative women) and not all women are the marrying kind. (yes, the same is true of men.)
8) The easiest way to enslave a person is to give him everything he wants"”but first, he must be instructed what to want. (And never to question why he wants it.)
I've learned long ago to take what black women say they want with a grain of salt. As long as I'm doing right by me and mine I can afford to wait for "Ms. Right" (whatever that means). Let the "thugs" *or as I like to call them..."gangstas lite"* have the women. I no longer give a damn. She might be with "2 cents" but shes eyeing my platinum Visa. She's hanging all over "CB 4" but shes with her friends talking about my Armani three piece suit with the patton leather Giorgio shoes. And I'm laughing the whole time. When she's ready to grow up and step into the big leagues she knows where to find me. Until then, let her say one thing and do another. Real men have better things to do with thier time.....Peace! dance
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Gambit...

Question...

I know youre a decent guy, with a beautiful daughter that you adore.

With that being said.....are there no decent women in your area...that you could possibly meet?

Are you saying, that all of these women are either looking for financial gain, or want to deal with thugs?


So far since I was put back here by my job all I've encountered are women that desire the "rap video" lifestyle (even though its nowhere around here except in clothing fashions) and women who are goldiggers and proudly proclaim it...although I do give them props for being honest and upfront about it..so I volunteer for TDY's (tempory tour of duty) just to meet other women in different cities and countries now. sad
Sister Rowe.... How are you? I miss the picture in your avatar of the woman in ceremonial dress and makeup... she was beautiful....

I'm doing well. The woman featured in my last avatar was actually a native African woman from the Fulani tribe. I'll put the image of the woman up again, in the future.

quote:
But I sensed pain in his question.... a yearining and confusion....I decided not to intellectually debate him.... but to offer comfort in understanding.


Dig Deeper, and Start Pursuing Women of Substance, Not Pin-Up Bimbo Models

Sister there are a lot of people here who are confused and in pain, apparently. Therefore this brother's grievances are no different from those that have been expressed here before. One of the ways that we can address his confusion, however, is by not allowing his misconceptions about women to go unchallenged. I hate to come across as mean, but what I've noticed is that it's usually busters who know darn well that they're out of their league that go after the the most superficial, most attractive, most image-conscious women they can find. Unfortunately, however, these are the type of women who are often the LEAST interested in them. After their self-confidence has taken one punch too many, then they want to come into a dicussion forum and bitch about how "all women are stuck up, materialistic, and superficial." Well if you're pursuing women who are like this, then what the hell else can you expect! But if you instead pursued women in your league, and more importantly, women of SUBSTANCE rather than women who you deem good enough to parade in front of their friends, then perhaps you would not face constant rejection. After unsuccessfully picking "lookers" to pursue, don't come in here blaming us cause you can't get you a "dime piece." Why not get a 5 piece with a 10+ brain, someone with whom you can actually build a worthwhile relationship, rather than just fuck on the weekends and front off before your friends.
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