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quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Anyway...here is another perspective. After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.
These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)
A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.
Thats my two cents


Very interesting. Are you saying they (some black women) would rather deal with a thug than a percieved sucess? Why do they not fear the thug when that lifestyle seems to have more dangers associated with it? Is there a feeling of not measuring up to set/certain standards?
I have not heard of sucessful blackmen discarding women " just because" or as a means to increase power.

Sorry for so many questions but this is really an interesting theory/observation.


catch
Sorry... One more thing... I just want to be perfectly clear....

1. I DO NOT WANT OR ADVOCATE DATING A THUG!!! UNEMPLOYED, NON-AMBITIOUS, CRIMINAL, LAZY, UNINTELLIGENT BROTHER....

2. I AM STATING THE MENTALITY OF OTHERS THAT I HAVE NOT JUDGED.... Therefore it may seem like a taking their position when I am not.... But I understand it so I can explain it.... So please do not PM me about this.... Thanks...

Sorry to interrupt ocatchings... I want to hear more about what QTY has to say also....


Peace,
Virtue
Interesting input V - In several threads, the men here clearly stated your point: Degrees are not the only manifestation of intelligence. We were quickly chided for even forwarding such a notion! Degrees were seen as a sure(r) way to create stability for wife & family.

IMO, The criminal's life is not stable, he is always one mistake away from not being able to provide for his family, much like the 9 to 5 joe.

You brought up the trap of refering to history in regard to what we were. Consequently, I'll clarify my question:

Are Black women today willing to sacrifice stability for their god/king?
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Interesting input V - In several threads, the men here clearly stated your point: Degrees are not the only manifestation of intelligence. We were quickly chided for even forwarding such a notion! Degrees were seen as a sure(r) way to create stability for wife & family.
Well now... brother... sigh....

A Degree... in this world signifies someone who is marketable to this established system and thus more likely to offer security through the likelihood of job placement....

"He has the ability to provide some financial security"....

Just because a brother is intelligent does not present the likelihood that he will use his intelligence to forge a way in this world..... those "Good Will Hunting" brothers I spoke of? Are usually broke.... I just happen to not care because I wasn't looking for anything from them in terms of a relationship....just good mental stimulation...

However, a brother with a Degree.... well... let me say this... a Degree is not a symbol of intelligence.... its a symbol of developed skill, a pattern of thinking, and acceptance of the market system.... most people go towards higher education to get a job.... not to contemplate and pontificate on the world around them and certainly not to challenge... though this happens anyway.....

A brother without a Degree is more risky in terms of financial stability....


quote:
IMO, The criminal's life is not stable, he is always one mistake away from not being able to provide for his family, much like the 9 to 5 joe.
Yes.....I agree... But the 9 to 5 Joe will offer a certain type of comfortable lifestyle while they're on edge.... a quality of life that many deem worth it.....

quote:
You brought up the trap of refering to history in regard to what we were. Consequently, I'll clarify my question:

Are Black women today willing to sacrifice stability for their god/king?
That depends on the woman you're asking.....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Anyway...here is another perspective. After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.
These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)
A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.
Thats my two cents


Very interesting. Are you saying they (some black women) would rather deal with a thug than a percieved sucess? Why do they not fear the thug when that lifestyle seems to have more dangers associated with it? Is there a feeling of not measuring up to set/certain standards?
I have not heard of sucessful blackmen discarding women " just because" or as a means to increase power.

Sorry for so many questions but this is really an interesting theory/observation.


catch



There are so many different 'types' of men, that women shouldnt deal with. A thug is just one of many.

With that being said.......most women, look for men that are financially stable, and able to support a home, family, etc. As virtue mentioned, these educated black men have degrees, and can move into well paying jobs. A lot of these brothers actually use their established lives, to pull women/friends. Their status, in the community is above all others.

Since women find this attractive (especially those women, who has worked to have in life).....a lot of women 'line up' for their attention and these men abuse this situation. Their behavior is brash, and unappealing.

You now have, a lot of sistas that have seen this process, or been a part of it...........and when meeting an educated brotha, she has negative feelings, and doesnt want to deal with him. Therefore that wall is standing there....

Example. I work as an intern. The second i meet a nice guy, and he tells me hes an attorney.......i get this sick feeling, that hes 'after' something, or he will mistreat me.......and i move on, because of this fear.

I guess women, have to make sure that we dont put all educated men in one bucket, but its hard. Frown


Again.....this is just my opinion. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
...And a question was asked so I thought I shed light on what I know actual women are saying....

a god.... heavy word.... yes.... loaded with meaning.....

but these women aren't crack pots.....
some of them use this word..... because of the strength attached to it.....

This shows me the importance of certain qualities....

This also shows me the desperation to see this aspect of manhood played out......

So much so..... that they'll even turn towards a thug to receive it.....

Peace,
Virtue


Virtue, thanks for articulating such a foreigh (to me) point of view - theirs, not yours. Wink

Time is tight for me today so let me cut to the chase (I don't have time to read all the other responses, so apologies for that)...

First, just to clarify - you are intimating that these women date thugs because they see thugs - and their relationship with them - as say, 'sticking their middle finger up' at societal controls - in particular (or exclusively) at white priviledge and control?

If that's the case, I can almost see why women who are more educated do this - because although I am guessing - perhaps despite all their education... as black women they still feel a lack of control in their lives, and feel disenfranchised.

Two questions please...

1. are these women aware that is what they are doing?
2. and, if so, are they also aware how detriental this behaviour/choice (conscious or otherwise) is to them, their potential mate, their community and their sense of self-worth?
.
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Wouldn't he be entering the world of nonexistence due to the notion that many black women just can't seem to bring themselves to recognize and acknowledge the few established brothers that are already around? To exchange this means to loose the sexual favor of the black woman. Many self-loafing men would make a change overnight if there were a sudden shift in the preference of most black women from anti-social thugs to educated, clean-cut upright men.


So let's sum up your argument here. As far as you're concerned, it's women's fault that 800,000 Black men are incarcerated. It's women's fault that some Black men subscribe to a thug mentality and participate in thug behavior. It's women's fault that some Black men refuse to acknowledge and be responsible for the children that they father. And ultimately it's women's fault that a disproportionate number of Black men are not applying to colleges. All of these issues are the Black women's fault. And according to the "radical" ideas that you've proposed, if the overwhelming majority of Black women would simply bumrush the few established brothas that are already around, these issues would be solved. This is your argument. This is your solution.

Ok Um, Brother Detroit, here's an idea that's truly radical. Ready? This may blow your mind, so may want to sit down for this one. Try accepting responsibility for your actions. Try being accountable for the decisions that YOU make rather than blaming everyone else, least of all, "women" for your errors and problems. I know it will take some time to digest this "radical" idea, but just let it sink in.
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quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Your statement is under the assumption that people (in this case black women) mean exactly what they say. Maybe they complain just for the sake of complaining (and Mike knows this, but he's getting paid). I don't give people as much credit as you do. I like to weigh peoples voiced concerns against their actions/behavior. That is why I used the term cog. dis. to explain this contradiction.


Don't let one sista's conjured-up explanation mislead you into thinking that the judgements you've made about Black women are accurate. The subjective judgements that you're making about Black women are not based on facts, but your own personal observations, which perhaps, reveals something about the type of women to whom you are attracted. As I've said before, I don't date thugs, and I have never been attracted to thugs. My parents would never even have allowed me to bring a "thug" into our home. Therefore, you are conversing with one of many Black woman whose actions are in line with our beliefs. Now would you consider me an exception, an anomaly, an aberration of some sort? If so, then produce documented evidence proving that being "cognitive dissonant" is a psychological problem that plagues the majority of Black women. Women on this site have done our research. We have supplied articles, published research, statistics, and data supporting the arguments that we've been making about the scarcity of successful Black men. Where is your evidence, proving that the majority of Black women's inability to find successful Black men is a result of their being attracted to thugs?
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...


Awesome post 'Virtue'. I am somewhere in the middle of your 'theory'. Definately not interested in the thug; although I did meet a 'Good Will Hunting' guy several years ago @ Southern U. (Baton Rouge), and I tell you, it was 'touch n' go'; he was a math genius, but had that 'dangerous, 'scary' edge', that my gut instinct threw shade at. Wow! But, I totally get the need/want for not necessarily a God', but someone, who, as you so eloquently stated here:

"I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits..."""
----------------------------

excellent!
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...


Awesome post 'Virtue'. I am somewhere in the middle of your 'theory'. Definately not interested in the thug; although I did meet a 'Good Will Hunting' guy several years ago @ Southern U. (Baton Rouge), and I tell you, it was 'touch n' go'; he was a math genius, but had that 'dangerous, 'scary' edge', that my gut instinct threw shade at. Wow! But, I totally get the need/want for not necessarily a God', but someone, who, as you so eloquently stated here:

"I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits..."""
----------------------------

excellent!
Thanks! You know you made me think of another example.... If you saw the movie "Crash" there is a scene where Terrence Howard's character's wife is molested by a police officer in front him..... and he does nothing and feels powerless..... They are obviously well to do.... upper middle class....

There's also a scene where Matt Dillon's character saves Howard's wife.... after she has been degraded by him... and watched as her husband was emasculated before him..... it was He that "saved" her from a car crash... He risked his life to do it.....

Howard's reaction is to rage against society.... but it's too late really.... the damage is done...

Interesting....

Successful Black Man-- Emasculated....
Lower class White Man-- Image of a Hero...
Thug-- What the frustrated and powerless Black Man becomes to "feel" like he has control over his destiny.....

Ask Terrence Howard's character if he thinks that just rising to the top of this society is enough....

And I'm simply speaking from my experience with women who feel the same way....

You happened to bring up a topic I discuss often....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
Virtue, thanks for articulating such a foreigh (to me) point of view - theirs, not yours. Wink

Time is tight for me today so let me cut to the chase (I don't have time to read all the other responses, so apologies for that)...

First, just to clarify - you are intimating that these women date thugs because they see thugs - and their relationship with them - as say, 'sticking their middle finger up' at societal controls - in particular (or exclusively) at white priviledge and control?
Hmmmm... sticking their finger? I might not describe quite like that.... more along the lines of Thugs retaining a measure of their "manhood".... that has tried to be stripped away by this society...

quote:
If that's the case, I can almost see why women who are more educated do this - because although I am guessing - perhaps despite all their education... as black women they still feel a lack of control in their lives, and feel disenfranchised.

Two questions please...

1. are these women aware that is what they are doing?
Sometimes... Not always...

quote:
2. and, if so, are they also aware how detriental this behaviour/choice (conscious or otherwise) is to them, their potential mate, their community and their sense of self-worth?
.
They would say giving in to this society is much more damaging to their sense of self worth.... they would rather work with their brother who is a thug and is a man... than work with the people who enslaved us or those trying to fit in well with those that subjugate us.....when they are aware... When they aren't they would say no... I just want to feel like for a moment.... everything is the way it should be.... A thug, again, is not a long term commitment.... they are usually flings.... like a drug habit.... so no, they don't care about the things that you mention (self-worth etc.) they want to feel good for a time...

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
[
So let's sum up your argument here. As far as you're concerned, it's women's fault that 800,000 Black men are incarcerated. It's women's fault that some Black men subscribe to thug mentality and participate in thug behavior. It's women's fault for why some....


Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.


I can accept this response, but what's even more vexing--and perhaps you can help me to understand--is why don't these men who are always complaining about some women's attraction to thugs take heed to their own advice? Why don't they make better choices in women? If your relationship with a woman ends because ultimately she prefers to be with a misfit, then she is not a person that you want to be involved with in the first place! What's worse, if you find yourself consistently involved with street women, then I think a self-evaluation is in order.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
I AM STATING THE MENTALITY OF OTHERS THAT I HAVE NOT JUDGED.... Therefore it may seem like a taking their position when I am not.... But I understand it so I can explain it.



Sister Virtue, even though brother Detroit's thread is loaded with sweeping generalizations made about Black women, you should be credited for at least answering his question. However, unfortunately, growing up, some Black women had thugs for fathers, brothers, and uncles. Therefore, for some women, attracting and establishing relationships with professional men can be a difficult challenge. Think about this: How would you know how to relate to so-called "professional men," or just professional people in general, if growing up you've never seen examples of these type of people in your community? You've never seen such people come into your home, have dinner with you and your family members? How would you even begin to know how to communicate and conduct yourself in environments where professional people are commonly found? No one is willing to ponder these questions. Everyone prefers to blame rather than discuss the deep underlying issues that cause some people to fall by the wayside.
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Sadly, I hate to admit it, but I have sisters, female cousins and aunts who exhibit the mind-set & behavior that Virtue is talking about...they view men as either "Geeky" or "Gansta"; they acknowledge this, and make no apologies for it. They seem oblivious to how hypocritical they are, though: when black women achieves academic & socio-economical success, she demands applause & attention from men (that's fair); but when black men achieve this same level of success, they're considered arrogant, conceited, less "black" & less "manly", than that "thug" name Omar who only claim to fame is strutting & grabbing his dick; and my female relatives ALWAYS bitch & moan about how hard it is to find a "good man", yet oblivious to the fact that they are the ones that keep getting in their own way: "I always see Omar with some woman, he triflin' but he cute tho. (Smiling)He stupit...yeah I'd talk to him. ...Michael? He's...nice. He graduted, already?! He's a sharp brotha. He's aw'ight but I need a man with "style" & "strunf" Roll Eyes.

You just can't win.
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
And my female relatives ALWAYS bitch & moan about how hard it is to find a "good man", yet oblivious to the fact that they are the ones that keep getting in their own way: "I always see Omar with some woman, he triflin' but he cute tho. (Smiling)He stupit...yeah I'd talk to him. ...Michael? He's...nice. He graduted, already?! He's a sharp brotha. He's aw'ight but I need a man with "style" & "strunf" Roll Eyes.


You know these are the same issues that we are dealing with in the education field concerning some Black youth's attitude toward education. Many African-American youth, particularly, African-American males, when they reach a certain age, fear that by showing an interest in education, they will lose respect from their peers. Unfortunately, in the eyes of some Black youth, purusing an education and subsequent employment is viewed as an act of a "sell-out." I can't say that I don't know where they pick up these attitudes because after reading some of the views being expressed in AA.org, I can see where they get them: FROM ADULTS. Right in this thread, we have some men who disapprove of women's interest in thugs and then other men who disapprove of women's interest in professional men. So we can't win for losing! But if we want to change our youth's attitudes about education and professionalism, they will need better conceptions of success.
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