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This phenomenon has baffled me for years. I have yet to figure out and understand this pathology. It's like code-breaking.

Cognitive dissonance is a perceived inconsistency between two cognitions in which the person believes one thing but then acts in a different way from what they believed.

To prove cognitive dissonance, one must observe the interactions between black men and black women and interpret the responses and reactions that black women give to black men.

Are these reactions positive, negative or neutral? Judging from the voiced wishes of the black women as to the type of man whom she seeks, how would you anticipate the reaction of black women towards black men in settings of higher education and the corporate workplace? Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

Out of contempt for educated brothas, sisters attack the educated black mans self with negative reactions so that the black man will internalize this negative self-image. Black women use other negative sanctions to show disapproval for black men who obtain education with frowns, cold-shoulders, dis-interest and negative attitudes.

Someone standing on the outside looking in at this interaction could not conclude from the black woman's behavior that she desires to be with educated/professionally employed black men. Black women say that they desire to be involved with educated, professionally employed black men but this idea/notion is not manifested into action which is obvious in the social interaction when the two parties are in one another's presence.

The reason that some women react with shock and disbelief when they hear of a single established brother is because their perception of an ideal culture does not jive with real/actual culture. The enthusiasm in the ideal world is not present in the physical world.

The rhetoric of many black women is a direct antonym/contradiction of their actions. If the actions coincided with the beliefs, men whom involve themselves in criminal activity wouldn't have the luxury of companionship with the black woman let alone children. If the actions agreed with the rhetoric, black women would show admiration and approval towards the already established brothers. Neither is the case. This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
All phenomena are characterized by "unity" through the complementarity of masculine and feminine principles – Memphite theology
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ouch! be prepared... unless the sistas have already had enough of this type of rheutoric... Wink [fingers drumming on table icon here]

quote:
The rhetoric of many black women is a direct antonym/contradiction of their actions.

hmmm...you don't think this cuts both ways? Like it's more a human trait than an exclusively female one.
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quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...
I'm not sure if I'm reading you right. If I've misinterpreted what you've said Virtue pls set me straight... but are you saying a thug is the only (black) man who has 'created his own world'? Confused

IMHO, being a thug is a cop-out. Not original, certinly not unique, not individual and quite one-dimentional and self-centred.

Whatever world we live in, everyone creates their own reality - reality is every conscious moment and how people choose to act in that moment.

A man with self-respect and dignity usually respects others...he is a King in my book.

Whether he's academic or flips burgers, that shines off a man as clearly as any bling.

A thug has no respect for anyone and is just an over-sized little boy with a bad attitude. Razz
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
Many women I know want strong men

This is the bases of my argument. Why doesn't the "want" of many sistas reflect in the men they end up preferring to deal with?

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...

So does this explain why many women prefer to involve themselves with men of non-conformist type characteristics (de-values marriage, family, education, normal employment, etc.)?

.... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man.....

perhaps....this is a new concept to me; something to ponder on; but it still proves my original argument about the contrast between the complaints and actions of many sistas. Why complain about the lack of educated black men when in actuality, you have contempt for them?

..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

I receive this as being "never satisfied".
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.


Talk About Beating A Dead Horse...

I had written something earlier that I decided to delete, but how are the accusations that you're making about the prevalence of "Cognitive Dissonant Black women" any different from the accusations being made about underemployed Black men, especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.

Therefore, I fail to see the validity in your argument when you haven't inquired or surveyed the dating experiences of women on this site nor have you produced any documented research that would clearly show that there is a surplus of employed and educated Black men at our disposal, that 800,000 Black men are not being wharehoused in jails, or that Black women do not make up the majority of college graduates within the Black community. Where is your evidence disproving what everyone from social scientists to relationship experts have long since acknowledged??? I would also like to read descriptions of what it is like to be a single Black woman in America from the perspective of Black women themselves, and not from anyone else's perspective.

Here we go again with this...
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
If the explanation provided above truly describes the mindset of even a small subset of sisters, it is dispicable. That is the worst cop-out.
Why?

Peace,
Virtue


art gurl & detroit1 have already touched on many of the reasons why it's shameful. If we are talking about adoration & respect for the criminal lifestyle, I shouldn't have to explain further.

Just one more train of thought comment though:

If admiring thugs & rejecting educated men is the new "thing" for Black women, then George W. Bush must be beating off the sisters with a stick... ohsnap
lol
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.


I don't know what's going in other cities, but in Washington, DC, this is the dilemma with which many sistas are contending. Very few men are earning enough to support families. Many of them have not educated themselves due to poor family backgrounds, parents' low expectations, differential treatment, or poor-performing public schools. Consequently, they are either unemployed or underemployed

I'm confused
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...[/color][/i]


If this is your justification for women wanting thugs, then these women get exactly what they deserve. If your statement is true, now I realize why black women aren't interested in me and why most women of other races are.
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.


I don't know what's going in other cities, but in Washington, DC, this is the dilemma with which many sistas are contending. Very few men are earning enough to support families. Many of them have not educated themselves due to poor family backgrounds, parents' low expectations, differential treatment, or poor-performing public schools. Consequently, they are either unemployed or underemployed

I'm confused


Yes, among other issues, this topic is a heavily debated issue in Washington, DC. In fact, a popular radio host by the name of Michael Baisden discusses this issue quite often on his radio program. And each time that he brings this issue up ("Single Black Women"), a swarm of Black women call in to voice their concerns. I'm only 29 years old, and right now, I'm doing OK in terms of dating. But after listening to all of these women well into their 30's and 40's calling and complaining, frankly, I'm beginning to get a little worried.

We do have a major problem with violence here in Washington DC. Drugs and gangs are a big problem in the poorer parts of the district. And unfortunately, this is where majority of Black men reside. Not a day goes by that I don't hear about a Black youngster either being shot or being ruthlessly beaten by a police officer(s). Just recently, a young Black teen was beaten for what went on for 84 minutes by five or more police officers. The beating was taped and aired on the news this past week. None of the officers, of course, were prosecuted, and so I am really concerned and scared for these boys. They are literally fair game and walking targets for anyone who wants to assault them. And I honestly don't know what to do about this. I just teach the youngsters and try to tell them to go to college (especially the boys). I tell them to please stay out of trouble. This whole thug phenomenon is absolute madness and I believe it has gotten way out of control in our community. Our kids are in desparate need for some serious guidance--the girls and the boys.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
....nor have you produced any documented research that would clearly show that there is a surplus of employed and educated Black men at our disposal, that 800,000 Black men are not being wharehoused in jails, or that Black women do not make up the majority of college graduates within the Black community. Where is your evidence disproving what everyone from social scientists to relationship experts have long since acknowledged???



I apologize for the misunderstanding of my post; I am not disagreeing with those statistics, only pointing out why they are........

Let's take the role of the other; in this case: the unemployed, uneducated, criminally involved black man in this country. If black women hold contempt for established brothas, isn't there consequences attached to getting oneself together? Isn't it unpopular? Wouldn't this black man be compromising the attention and indirect love affair that many black women have with the under established black man? Wouldn't he be entering the world of nonexistence due to the notion that many black women just can't seem to bring themselves to recognize and acknowledge the few established brothers that are already around? Wouldn't he be leaving the black woman's focus and concentration only to be purposely overlooked just like the other professional and educated black men?
(Bad publicity is better than no publicity). To exchange this means to loose the sexual favor of the black woman. Many self-loafing men would make a change overnight if there were a sudden shift in the preference of most black women from anti-social thugs to educated, clean-cut upright men.

I admit that these ideas are radical thus requiring time to absorb and digest like anytime you expose people to ideas that conflict with their previous ways of looking at the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Michael Baisden discusses this issue quite often on his radio program. And each time that he brings this issue up ("Single Black Women"), a swarm of Black women call in to voice their concerns. I'm only 29 years old, and right now, I'm doing OK in terms of dating. But after listening to all of these women well into their 30's and 40's calling and complaining, frankly, I'm beginning to get a little worried.


Your statement is under the assumption that people (in this case black women) mean exactly what they say. Maybe they complain just for the sake of complaining (and Mike knows this, but he's getting paid). I don't give people as much credit as you do. I like to weigh peoples voiced concerns against their actions/behavior. That is why I used the term cog. dis. to explain this contradiction.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
I'm not sure if I'm reading you right. If I've misinterpreted what you've said Virtue pls set me straight... but are you saying a thug is the only (black) man who has 'created his own world'? Confused

IMHO, being a thug is a cop-out. Not original, certinly not unique, not individual and quite one-dimentional and self-centred.

Whatever world we live in, everyone creates their own reality - reality is every conscious moment and how people choose to act in that moment.

A man with self-respect and dignity usually respects others...he is a King in my book.

Whether he's academic or flips burgers, that shines off a man as clearly as any bling.

A thug has no respect for anyone and is just an over-sized little boy with a bad attitude. Razz
.
Yes... your description of a thug is mine also.... I tried to portray the sentiment of those I know as best I could.... What I presented wasn't a justification.... It was a perspective.....

It also wasn't scientific..... It was simply another experience....

One may not like it...... but it exists and gives one another window into another mindset.....

I described it the way that I did because among women that I know they can't really express what they're feeling..... but it comes out in bits and pieces.....

I uphold righteous principles...... so a thug is not a King..... and the women that I know don't think so..... not really..... But what they do see is an aspect of a King that strikes them as attractive.....

And that is creating His own world.....
One with a Black face...

Not a world where they exist and can help move along the objectives and goals of a world that is run by their oppressors....

Hard concept to swallow? Accept? Agree with? Understand?

Sure....

I am the same way.....

But one difference is....I understand it....

And a question was asked so I thought I shed light on what I know actual women are saying....

a god.... heavy word.... yes.... loaded with meaning.....

but these women aren't crack pots.....
some of them use this word..... because of the strength attached to it.....

This shows me the importance of certain qualities....

This also shows me the desperation to see this aspect of manhood played out......

So much so..... that they'll even turn towards a thug to receive it.....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
art gurl & detroit1 have already touched on many of the reasons why it's shameful. If we are talking about adoration & respect for the criminal lifestyle, I shouldn't have to explain further.
No, ddouble... I wasn't giving a justification.... for me there are two separate emotions being expressed.....

Let me try to explain a bit further.....

Do these women enjoy the criminal lifestyle? No.... These women could give a lecture on it that would give inspiration to others to leave it......

--- But, the contradiction is....seemingly... any way.... that in their personal choices.... they choose men sometimes that go against the grain of everything they espouse.....

When discussed...... words like "god" come up to describe someone in control of his environment..... or "he don't take no... ish..."..... or "he went crazy on the cops"..... or "he got his.... his way"....

Now after reading these statements..... it might be easy to think I'm talking to ShaNeNe.... but I'm not.... these are college educated Master degreed women..... Some are successful entrepreneurs..... A few are *ahem* married....(with fantasies)......

See, Detroit asked a question.... I assumed about the "contradiction".... not about the quantity.... (I could be mistaken.... I haven't re-read it as I'm typing)..... and if you want to understand the contradiction..... then you have to first accept the possibility that a mind like this exists....

See when we go into these sessions..... I don't judge (although it is easy to do... clearly).... I just listen..... so I can understand..... and then I ask questions.... like "Well why don't you fantasize about Stanley O'Neal.... He went in and took over Merrill Lynch single handedly and threw out the 'old boy network'?" There's a Black Man in control.....

But the answer is the belief that somehow no matter how high some one rises in this world he "loses" some of himself to get there... so the answer is.... "Yeah.... but he took over 'Merril Lynch'....." Well I didn't understand what this meant at first..... But later I got it.... Merril Lynch is an established Wall Street firm with its own rules.... and makeup.... its not an original creation.... its not a brother "creating".... its a brother "taking over" and then "running" it.... better.... for the benefit of Black people? Nope.... For the betterment of WallStreet and "the firm"..... this kind of thiking comes out in statements like.... "Well what has he done for us lately?" All of this may seem like a contradiction....but there seems to be a crossing over of thoughts.... one thought is ...... wanting a man in control..... and the other is..... wanting a man who believes in the empowerment of Black people...... and apparently that view is not one where Black people exist in someone else's country bettering someone else's idea of reality.....

Even further.... most of women, if Stanley O'Neal wanted to go out with them... wouldn't hesitate to say okay..... would probably marry someone like him..... but what they "want" and what they "talk" about is different....

I am not saying that these women prefer a thug.... they just don't see what they're looking for any where else really..... and least not accessible.....

Hmmmm.... it's kind of like in a movie where the "bad boy" is the one that leads the revolution.....

I hope this comes out coherent... but I'm typing late again....


quote:
Just one more train of thought comment though:

If admiring thugs & rejecting educated men is the new "thing" for Black women, then George W. Bush must be beating off the sisters with a stick... ohsnap
lol
Not for women like this...... George Bush would be the enemy.....

Also, just a note.... these women are not desperate.... it's not a situation of their not being able to attract men..... like, Rowe, they do alright..... its the type of man that they are looking for....

And this is not all my friends.... sheesh! Just "some" of them..... but again.... the question was asked.... so I thought I'd share what I knew....



**** Disclaimer******* .... Sigh....

I Personally do not lust after thugs.... don't even fantasize about them!!!...

Well there was this one time....



Red Face



Just Kidding... Razz

Peace,
Virtue
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"Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree."
-detroit1



Im going to say this and bounce......

*I cant seem to keep my mouth closed* sck *sigh*



Anyway...here is another perspective.

After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.

These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)

A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.

Thats my two cents Smile
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
This is the bases of my argument. Why doesn't the "want" of many sistas reflect in the men they end up preferring to deal with?
Because they have a hard time finding him.... Many "hopefuls" are already married..... The others have one or the other unacceptable characteristics.... This doesn't mean that they will marry or date no one.... but in terms of what they "want" it really doesn't exist..... so they pick what's available and satisfy their cravings through their fantasies.... flings... or short-lived dates.... a little depressing... yes... but it happens none the less....


quote:
So does this explain why many women prefer to involve themselves with men of non-conformist type characteristics (de-values marriage, family, education, normal employment, etc.)?
I would assume so.... again... a little depressing... yes...

quote:
perhaps....this is a new concept to me; something to ponder on; but it still proves my original argument about the contrast between the complaints and actions of many sistas. Why complain about the lack of educated black men when in actuality, you have contempt for them?
I guess I agree with you.... there is a contrast.... But these sisters don't complain about the lack of educated men.... they are dismayed by the lack of strength, tenacity and staying power of holding the idea of doing for self and striving to create for self... they see in these men... on some level.... too much acceptance not enough drive or will to create not just something better to make life more comfortable... but to put us in our proper place... Rulership.... Radical... yes? But no one wants it... not truly.... in fact most men laugh at the idea.... because in truth they only see and are comfortable with the way things are run now... and with whom is running it.... and don't want to fight like chess players to create something new..... You see in these sessions it always comes out when we began discussing history and how we "used" to be..... and the possibilities of what we could be.....

Again.... its a twisted way to be.... but the psyche of this woman is one that is hurt and disappointed....

Now I haven't discussed my responses.... just their mind set....


quote:
I receive this as being "never satisfied".
Until there is change.... Yep... You are right.... won't be satisfied until they see the fire in the men that they are around..... perhaps later we can talk more about methods of changing this around.....

I'm being sincere here.... I don't necessarily agree with them.... I do understand it though...

Peace,
Virtue
The ultimate conflict I see in the scenario you describe is this:

To be willing to forge your own path, you (and by extension your family) have to be willing to sacrifice ALL of the trappings of traditional, established society. Go back and review some of the threads here about marriagable men. Number 1 & 2 criteria on most lists are income stability (ability to take care of his family) and a love of learning (manifested through college degrees). To want a man that bucks the system to make his own way, typically means foregoing 1 & 2, at least for some period of time. Are women prepared to sacrifice the stability of 1 & 2, to have a king who set the rules, a god who creates what he desires? I don't know, just positing the question.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
The ultimate conflict I see in the scenario you describe is this:

To be willing to forge your own path, you (and by extension your family) have to be willing to sacrifice ALL of the trappings of traditional, established society. Go back and review some of the threads here about marriagable men. Number 1 & 2 criteria on most lists are income stability (ability to take care of his family) and a love of learning (manifested through college degrees). To want a man that bucks the system to make his own way, typically means foregoing 1 & 2, at least for some period of time. Are women prepared to sacrifice the stability of 1 & 2, to have a king who set the rules, a god who creates what he desires? I don't know, just positing the question.
Aaaaahhhh Ddouble.... you are opening Pandora's box with me.... I tried not to interject too much of my own views in this topic.... but it's really hard to.... I wanted to open others up to a view that they may not be privy to.....

Also, my experience is different from Qty's whose experience with women is that they are "intimidated" and "insecure" around the educated successful brother..... while my experience is that the women I'm around tend to view them as "weak" in some way....


Bottom line.... The questions you ask are valid ones....

Financial stability is achieved for many women who embody the thug life.... it's through illegal means... but many send their childrend to private school and live a middle class as others do...... you'd never know though.... however if you ask about physical security... and legal security... well....they'd probably give you a blank stare and not even try to justify it.... but say that that's the price you have to pay.... but that's only one sister I know.... the rest don't get that involved with a thug.... he's a fling... (Lawd! No! I don't hang around hussies.... just happen to know a few on the DL laugh)

As far as learning goes.... Oh... My.... Goodness..... Please don't hate me for saying so.... but the most interesting and intellectual and thoroughly engaging conversations I have ever had were with brothers who read on their own.... hang out with professors and challenge them constantly.... but that's just reading and observing.... but it does have flavor....I tend to love meeting "Good Will Hunting" types.... there is a wordly insight that comes with their genius and an edge... that can't be beat.....

That's just me.... ummmm they would say... they don't care.... that's not why they got with them in the first place....


** Oh by the way.... you do know that in history there are many accounts of women who not only stay with men who buck the system and sacrifice mightily for it.... but initiate it.... there are many women that deem the goal worth it all..... However it's easier to see where you stand when your oppressor is hurting you openly..... harder to do when he's allowing you some footing......*** That's my revolutionary two cents

---though I'm not equating "real" struggle with a thug life.... just that the mentality of some woman who wants to sacrifice is there in the same degree that it is with the thug whom she is with.... You have to understand what I'm referring to here is the crumb of power that these sisters are trying to hold on to.... because they see it no where else.... That doesn't make it worthy or something we should follow.... but it does exist... so its a kind of thinking we should know about....


Peace,
Virtue

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