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This phenomenon has baffled me for years. I have yet to figure out and understand this pathology. It's like code-breaking.

Cognitive dissonance is a perceived inconsistency between two cognitions in which the person believes one thing but then acts in a different way from what they believed.

To prove cognitive dissonance, one must observe the interactions between black men and black women and interpret the responses and reactions that black women give to black men.

Are these reactions positive, negative or neutral? Judging from the voiced wishes of the black women as to the type of man whom she seeks, how would you anticipate the reaction of black women towards black men in settings of higher education and the corporate workplace? Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

Out of contempt for educated brothas, sisters attack the educated black mans self with negative reactions so that the black man will internalize this negative self-image. Black women use other negative sanctions to show disapproval for black men who obtain education with frowns, cold-shoulders, dis-interest and negative attitudes.

Someone standing on the outside looking in at this interaction could not conclude from the black woman's behavior that she desires to be with educated/professionally employed black men. Black women say that they desire to be involved with educated, professionally employed black men but this idea/notion is not manifested into action which is obvious in the social interaction when the two parties are in one another's presence.

The reason that some women react with shock and disbelief when they hear of a single established brother is because their perception of an ideal culture does not jive with real/actual culture. The enthusiasm in the ideal world is not present in the physical world.

The rhetoric of many black women is a direct antonym/contradiction of their actions. If the actions coincided with the beliefs, men whom involve themselves in criminal activity wouldn't have the luxury of companionship with the black woman let alone children. If the actions agreed with the rhetoric, black women would show admiration and approval towards the already established brothers. Neither is the case. This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
All phenomena are characterized by "unity" through the complementarity of masculine and feminine principles – Memphite theology
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ouch! be prepared... unless the sistas have already had enough of this type of rheutoric... Wink [fingers drumming on table icon here]

quote:
The rhetoric of many black women is a direct antonym/contradiction of their actions.

hmmm...you don't think this cuts both ways? Like it's more a human trait than an exclusively female one.
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quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...
I'm not sure if I'm reading you right. If I've misinterpreted what you've said Virtue pls set me straight... but are you saying a thug is the only (black) man who has 'created his own world'? Confused

IMHO, being a thug is a cop-out. Not original, certinly not unique, not individual and quite one-dimentional and self-centred.

Whatever world we live in, everyone creates their own reality - reality is every conscious moment and how people choose to act in that moment.

A man with self-respect and dignity usually respects others...he is a King in my book.

Whether he's academic or flips burgers, that shines off a man as clearly as any bling.

A thug has no respect for anyone and is just an over-sized little boy with a bad attitude. Razz
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
Many women I know want strong men

This is the bases of my argument. Why doesn't the "want" of many sistas reflect in the men they end up preferring to deal with?

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...

So does this explain why many women prefer to involve themselves with men of non-conformist type characteristics (de-values marriage, family, education, normal employment, etc.)?

.... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man.....

perhaps....this is a new concept to me; something to ponder on; but it still proves my original argument about the contrast between the complaints and actions of many sistas. Why complain about the lack of educated black men when in actuality, you have contempt for them?

..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

I receive this as being "never satisfied".
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.


Talk About Beating A Dead Horse...

I had written something earlier that I decided to delete, but how are the accusations that you're making about the prevalence of "Cognitive Dissonant Black women" any different from the accusations being made about underemployed Black men, especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.

Therefore, I fail to see the validity in your argument when you haven't inquired or surveyed the dating experiences of women on this site nor have you produced any documented research that would clearly show that there is a surplus of employed and educated Black men at our disposal, that 800,000 Black men are not being wharehoused in jails, or that Black women do not make up the majority of college graduates within the Black community. Where is your evidence disproving what everyone from social scientists to relationship experts have long since acknowledged??? I would also like to read descriptions of what it is like to be a single Black woman in America from the perspective of Black women themselves, and not from anyone else's perspective.

Here we go again with this...
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
If the explanation provided above truly describes the mindset of even a small subset of sisters, it is dispicable. That is the worst cop-out.
Why?

Peace,
Virtue


art gurl & detroit1 have already touched on many of the reasons why it's shameful. If we are talking about adoration & respect for the criminal lifestyle, I shouldn't have to explain further.

Just one more train of thought comment though:

If admiring thugs & rejecting educated men is the new "thing" for Black women, then George W. Bush must be beating off the sisters with a stick... ohsnap
lol
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.


I don't know what's going in other cities, but in Washington, DC, this is the dilemma with which many sistas are contending. Very few men are earning enough to support families. Many of them have not educated themselves due to poor family backgrounds, parents' low expectations, differential treatment, or poor-performing public schools. Consequently, they are either unemployed or underemployed

I'm confused
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...[/color][/i]


If this is your justification for women wanting thugs, then these women get exactly what they deserve. If your statement is true, now I realize why black women aren't interested in me and why most women of other races are.
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
especially when you're conversing with Black women who are and/or have been in relationships with successful Black men?

Not that it's anyone's business, but the last guy that I dated has an Associate's, 2 Bachelor's, 1 Master's Degree, and is a supervisor at the Department of Energy in Washington, DC. The man with whom I was in a serioius relationship before him was working on his Master's Degree, and he established and managed a business with a colleage in Baltimore--and I can assure you that I am indeed a Black woman.


I don't know what's going in other cities, but in Washington, DC, this is the dilemma with which many sistas are contending. Very few men are earning enough to support families. Many of them have not educated themselves due to poor family backgrounds, parents' low expectations, differential treatment, or poor-performing public schools. Consequently, they are either unemployed or underemployed

I'm confused


Yes, among other issues, this topic is a heavily debated issue in Washington, DC. In fact, a popular radio host by the name of Michael Baisden discusses this issue quite often on his radio program. And each time that he brings this issue up ("Single Black Women"), a swarm of Black women call in to voice their concerns. I'm only 29 years old, and right now, I'm doing OK in terms of dating. But after listening to all of these women well into their 30's and 40's calling and complaining, frankly, I'm beginning to get a little worried.

We do have a major problem with violence here in Washington DC. Drugs and gangs are a big problem in the poorer parts of the district. And unfortunately, this is where majority of Black men reside. Not a day goes by that I don't hear about a Black youngster either being shot or being ruthlessly beaten by a police officer(s). Just recently, a young Black teen was beaten for what went on for 84 minutes by five or more police officers. The beating was taped and aired on the news this past week. None of the officers, of course, were prosecuted, and so I am really concerned and scared for these boys. They are literally fair game and walking targets for anyone who wants to assault them. And I honestly don't know what to do about this. I just teach the youngsters and try to tell them to go to college (especially the boys). I tell them to please stay out of trouble. This whole thug phenomenon is absolute madness and I believe it has gotten way out of control in our community. Our kids are in desparate need for some serious guidance--the girls and the boys.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
....nor have you produced any documented research that would clearly show that there is a surplus of employed and educated Black men at our disposal, that 800,000 Black men are not being wharehoused in jails, or that Black women do not make up the majority of college graduates within the Black community. Where is your evidence disproving what everyone from social scientists to relationship experts have long since acknowledged???



I apologize for the misunderstanding of my post; I am not disagreeing with those statistics, only pointing out why they are........

Let's take the role of the other; in this case: the unemployed, uneducated, criminally involved black man in this country. If black women hold contempt for established brothas, isn't there consequences attached to getting oneself together? Isn't it unpopular? Wouldn't this black man be compromising the attention and indirect love affair that many black women have with the under established black man? Wouldn't he be entering the world of nonexistence due to the notion that many black women just can't seem to bring themselves to recognize and acknowledge the few established brothers that are already around? Wouldn't he be leaving the black woman's focus and concentration only to be purposely overlooked just like the other professional and educated black men?
(Bad publicity is better than no publicity). To exchange this means to loose the sexual favor of the black woman. Many self-loafing men would make a change overnight if there were a sudden shift in the preference of most black women from anti-social thugs to educated, clean-cut upright men.

I admit that these ideas are radical thus requiring time to absorb and digest like anytime you expose people to ideas that conflict with their previous ways of looking at the world.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Michael Baisden discusses this issue quite often on his radio program. And each time that he brings this issue up ("Single Black Women"), a swarm of Black women call in to voice their concerns. I'm only 29 years old, and right now, I'm doing OK in terms of dating. But after listening to all of these women well into their 30's and 40's calling and complaining, frankly, I'm beginning to get a little worried.


Your statement is under the assumption that people (in this case black women) mean exactly what they say. Maybe they complain just for the sake of complaining (and Mike knows this, but he's getting paid). I don't give people as much credit as you do. I like to weigh peoples voiced concerns against their actions/behavior. That is why I used the term cog. dis. to explain this contradiction.
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
I'm not sure if I'm reading you right. If I've misinterpreted what you've said Virtue pls set me straight... but are you saying a thug is the only (black) man who has 'created his own world'? Confused

IMHO, being a thug is a cop-out. Not original, certinly not unique, not individual and quite one-dimentional and self-centred.

Whatever world we live in, everyone creates their own reality - reality is every conscious moment and how people choose to act in that moment.

A man with self-respect and dignity usually respects others...he is a King in my book.

Whether he's academic or flips burgers, that shines off a man as clearly as any bling.

A thug has no respect for anyone and is just an over-sized little boy with a bad attitude. Razz
.
Yes... your description of a thug is mine also.... I tried to portray the sentiment of those I know as best I could.... What I presented wasn't a justification.... It was a perspective.....

It also wasn't scientific..... It was simply another experience....

One may not like it...... but it exists and gives one another window into another mindset.....

I described it the way that I did because among women that I know they can't really express what they're feeling..... but it comes out in bits and pieces.....

I uphold righteous principles...... so a thug is not a King..... and the women that I know don't think so..... not really..... But what they do see is an aspect of a King that strikes them as attractive.....

And that is creating His own world.....
One with a Black face...

Not a world where they exist and can help move along the objectives and goals of a world that is run by their oppressors....

Hard concept to swallow? Accept? Agree with? Understand?

Sure....

I am the same way.....

But one difference is....I understand it....

And a question was asked so I thought I shed light on what I know actual women are saying....

a god.... heavy word.... yes.... loaded with meaning.....

but these women aren't crack pots.....
some of them use this word..... because of the strength attached to it.....

This shows me the importance of certain qualities....

This also shows me the desperation to see this aspect of manhood played out......

So much so..... that they'll even turn towards a thug to receive it.....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
art gurl & detroit1 have already touched on many of the reasons why it's shameful. If we are talking about adoration & respect for the criminal lifestyle, I shouldn't have to explain further.
No, ddouble... I wasn't giving a justification.... for me there are two separate emotions being expressed.....

Let me try to explain a bit further.....

Do these women enjoy the criminal lifestyle? No.... These women could give a lecture on it that would give inspiration to others to leave it......

--- But, the contradiction is....seemingly... any way.... that in their personal choices.... they choose men sometimes that go against the grain of everything they espouse.....

When discussed...... words like "god" come up to describe someone in control of his environment..... or "he don't take no... ish..."..... or "he went crazy on the cops"..... or "he got his.... his way"....

Now after reading these statements..... it might be easy to think I'm talking to ShaNeNe.... but I'm not.... these are college educated Master degreed women..... Some are successful entrepreneurs..... A few are *ahem* married....(with fantasies)......

See, Detroit asked a question.... I assumed about the "contradiction".... not about the quantity.... (I could be mistaken.... I haven't re-read it as I'm typing)..... and if you want to understand the contradiction..... then you have to first accept the possibility that a mind like this exists....

See when we go into these sessions..... I don't judge (although it is easy to do... clearly).... I just listen..... so I can understand..... and then I ask questions.... like "Well why don't you fantasize about Stanley O'Neal.... He went in and took over Merrill Lynch single handedly and threw out the 'old boy network'?" There's a Black Man in control.....

But the answer is the belief that somehow no matter how high some one rises in this world he "loses" some of himself to get there... so the answer is.... "Yeah.... but he took over 'Merril Lynch'....." Well I didn't understand what this meant at first..... But later I got it.... Merril Lynch is an established Wall Street firm with its own rules.... and makeup.... its not an original creation.... its not a brother "creating".... its a brother "taking over" and then "running" it.... better.... for the benefit of Black people? Nope.... For the betterment of WallStreet and "the firm"..... this kind of thiking comes out in statements like.... "Well what has he done for us lately?" All of this may seem like a contradiction....but there seems to be a crossing over of thoughts.... one thought is ...... wanting a man in control..... and the other is..... wanting a man who believes in the empowerment of Black people...... and apparently that view is not one where Black people exist in someone else's country bettering someone else's idea of reality.....

Even further.... most of women, if Stanley O'Neal wanted to go out with them... wouldn't hesitate to say okay..... would probably marry someone like him..... but what they "want" and what they "talk" about is different....

I am not saying that these women prefer a thug.... they just don't see what they're looking for any where else really..... and least not accessible.....

Hmmmm.... it's kind of like in a movie where the "bad boy" is the one that leads the revolution.....

I hope this comes out coherent... but I'm typing late again....


quote:
Just one more train of thought comment though:

If admiring thugs & rejecting educated men is the new "thing" for Black women, then George W. Bush must be beating off the sisters with a stick... ohsnap
lol
Not for women like this...... George Bush would be the enemy.....

Also, just a note.... these women are not desperate.... it's not a situation of their not being able to attract men..... like, Rowe, they do alright..... its the type of man that they are looking for....

And this is not all my friends.... sheesh! Just "some" of them..... but again.... the question was asked.... so I thought I'd share what I knew....



**** Disclaimer******* .... Sigh....

I Personally do not lust after thugs.... don't even fantasize about them!!!...

Well there was this one time....



Red Face



Just Kidding... Razz

Peace,
Virtue
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"Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree."
-detroit1



Im going to say this and bounce......

*I cant seem to keep my mouth closed* sck *sigh*



Anyway...here is another perspective.

After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.

These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)

A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.

Thats my two cents Smile
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
This is the bases of my argument. Why doesn't the "want" of many sistas reflect in the men they end up preferring to deal with?
Because they have a hard time finding him.... Many "hopefuls" are already married..... The others have one or the other unacceptable characteristics.... This doesn't mean that they will marry or date no one.... but in terms of what they "want" it really doesn't exist..... so they pick what's available and satisfy their cravings through their fantasies.... flings... or short-lived dates.... a little depressing... yes... but it happens none the less....


quote:
So does this explain why many women prefer to involve themselves with men of non-conformist type characteristics (de-values marriage, family, education, normal employment, etc.)?
I would assume so.... again... a little depressing... yes...

quote:
perhaps....this is a new concept to me; something to ponder on; but it still proves my original argument about the contrast between the complaints and actions of many sistas. Why complain about the lack of educated black men when in actuality, you have contempt for them?
I guess I agree with you.... there is a contrast.... But these sisters don't complain about the lack of educated men.... they are dismayed by the lack of strength, tenacity and staying power of holding the idea of doing for self and striving to create for self... they see in these men... on some level.... too much acceptance not enough drive or will to create not just something better to make life more comfortable... but to put us in our proper place... Rulership.... Radical... yes? But no one wants it... not truly.... in fact most men laugh at the idea.... because in truth they only see and are comfortable with the way things are run now... and with whom is running it.... and don't want to fight like chess players to create something new..... You see in these sessions it always comes out when we began discussing history and how we "used" to be..... and the possibilities of what we could be.....

Again.... its a twisted way to be.... but the psyche of this woman is one that is hurt and disappointed....

Now I haven't discussed my responses.... just their mind set....


quote:
I receive this as being "never satisfied".
Until there is change.... Yep... You are right.... won't be satisfied until they see the fire in the men that they are around..... perhaps later we can talk more about methods of changing this around.....

I'm being sincere here.... I don't necessarily agree with them.... I do understand it though...

Peace,
Virtue
The ultimate conflict I see in the scenario you describe is this:

To be willing to forge your own path, you (and by extension your family) have to be willing to sacrifice ALL of the trappings of traditional, established society. Go back and review some of the threads here about marriagable men. Number 1 & 2 criteria on most lists are income stability (ability to take care of his family) and a love of learning (manifested through college degrees). To want a man that bucks the system to make his own way, typically means foregoing 1 & 2, at least for some period of time. Are women prepared to sacrifice the stability of 1 & 2, to have a king who set the rules, a god who creates what he desires? I don't know, just positing the question.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
The ultimate conflict I see in the scenario you describe is this:

To be willing to forge your own path, you (and by extension your family) have to be willing to sacrifice ALL of the trappings of traditional, established society. Go back and review some of the threads here about marriagable men. Number 1 & 2 criteria on most lists are income stability (ability to take care of his family) and a love of learning (manifested through college degrees). To want a man that bucks the system to make his own way, typically means foregoing 1 & 2, at least for some period of time. Are women prepared to sacrifice the stability of 1 & 2, to have a king who set the rules, a god who creates what he desires? I don't know, just positing the question.
Aaaaahhhh Ddouble.... you are opening Pandora's box with me.... I tried not to interject too much of my own views in this topic.... but it's really hard to.... I wanted to open others up to a view that they may not be privy to.....

Also, my experience is different from Qty's whose experience with women is that they are "intimidated" and "insecure" around the educated successful brother..... while my experience is that the women I'm around tend to view them as "weak" in some way....


Bottom line.... The questions you ask are valid ones....

Financial stability is achieved for many women who embody the thug life.... it's through illegal means... but many send their childrend to private school and live a middle class as others do...... you'd never know though.... however if you ask about physical security... and legal security... well....they'd probably give you a blank stare and not even try to justify it.... but say that that's the price you have to pay.... but that's only one sister I know.... the rest don't get that involved with a thug.... he's a fling... (Lawd! No! I don't hang around hussies.... just happen to know a few on the DL laugh)

As far as learning goes.... Oh... My.... Goodness..... Please don't hate me for saying so.... but the most interesting and intellectual and thoroughly engaging conversations I have ever had were with brothers who read on their own.... hang out with professors and challenge them constantly.... but that's just reading and observing.... but it does have flavor....I tend to love meeting "Good Will Hunting" types.... there is a wordly insight that comes with their genius and an edge... that can't be beat.....

That's just me.... ummmm they would say... they don't care.... that's not why they got with them in the first place....


** Oh by the way.... you do know that in history there are many accounts of women who not only stay with men who buck the system and sacrifice mightily for it.... but initiate it.... there are many women that deem the goal worth it all..... However it's easier to see where you stand when your oppressor is hurting you openly..... harder to do when he's allowing you some footing......*** That's my revolutionary two cents

---though I'm not equating "real" struggle with a thug life.... just that the mentality of some woman who wants to sacrifice is there in the same degree that it is with the thug whom she is with.... You have to understand what I'm referring to here is the crumb of power that these sisters are trying to hold on to.... because they see it no where else.... That doesn't make it worthy or something we should follow.... but it does exist... so its a kind of thinking we should know about....


Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Anyway...here is another perspective. After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.
These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)
A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.
Thats my two cents


Very interesting. Are you saying they (some black women) would rather deal with a thug than a percieved sucess? Why do they not fear the thug when that lifestyle seems to have more dangers associated with it? Is there a feeling of not measuring up to set/certain standards?
I have not heard of sucessful blackmen discarding women " just because" or as a means to increase power.

Sorry for so many questions but this is really an interesting theory/observation.


catch
Sorry... One more thing... I just want to be perfectly clear....

1. I DO NOT WANT OR ADVOCATE DATING A THUG!!! UNEMPLOYED, NON-AMBITIOUS, CRIMINAL, LAZY, UNINTELLIGENT BROTHER....

2. I AM STATING THE MENTALITY OF OTHERS THAT I HAVE NOT JUDGED.... Therefore it may seem like a taking their position when I am not.... But I understand it so I can explain it.... So please do not PM me about this.... Thanks...

Sorry to interrupt ocatchings... I want to hear more about what QTY has to say also....


Peace,
Virtue
Interesting input V - In several threads, the men here clearly stated your point: Degrees are not the only manifestation of intelligence. We were quickly chided for even forwarding such a notion! Degrees were seen as a sure(r) way to create stability for wife & family.

IMO, The criminal's life is not stable, he is always one mistake away from not being able to provide for his family, much like the 9 to 5 joe.

You brought up the trap of refering to history in regard to what we were. Consequently, I'll clarify my question:

Are Black women today willing to sacrifice stability for their god/king?
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Interesting input V - In several threads, the men here clearly stated your point: Degrees are not the only manifestation of intelligence. We were quickly chided for even forwarding such a notion! Degrees were seen as a sure(r) way to create stability for wife & family.
Well now... brother... sigh....

A Degree... in this world signifies someone who is marketable to this established system and thus more likely to offer security through the likelihood of job placement....

"He has the ability to provide some financial security"....

Just because a brother is intelligent does not present the likelihood that he will use his intelligence to forge a way in this world..... those "Good Will Hunting" brothers I spoke of? Are usually broke.... I just happen to not care because I wasn't looking for anything from them in terms of a relationship....just good mental stimulation...

However, a brother with a Degree.... well... let me say this... a Degree is not a symbol of intelligence.... its a symbol of developed skill, a pattern of thinking, and acceptance of the market system.... most people go towards higher education to get a job.... not to contemplate and pontificate on the world around them and certainly not to challenge... though this happens anyway.....

A brother without a Degree is more risky in terms of financial stability....


quote:
IMO, The criminal's life is not stable, he is always one mistake away from not being able to provide for his family, much like the 9 to 5 joe.
Yes.....I agree... But the 9 to 5 Joe will offer a certain type of comfortable lifestyle while they're on edge.... a quality of life that many deem worth it.....

quote:
You brought up the trap of refering to history in regard to what we were. Consequently, I'll clarify my question:

Are Black women today willing to sacrifice stability for their god/king?
That depends on the woman you're asking.....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by ocatchings:
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Anyway...here is another perspective. After talking with friends/family, it seems that 'some' black women are fearful of educated, established black men.
These are men with financial power in the community. The community looks up to these men, and they have the ability to hurt, and discard those in their circle. (friends/lovers, etc)
A lot of women are defensive.....and will put up a wall, (not giving this type of black man a chance), because either she has experienced this or has seen this happen to other women.
Thats my two cents


Very interesting. Are you saying they (some black women) would rather deal with a thug than a percieved sucess? Why do they not fear the thug when that lifestyle seems to have more dangers associated with it? Is there a feeling of not measuring up to set/certain standards?
I have not heard of sucessful blackmen discarding women " just because" or as a means to increase power.

Sorry for so many questions but this is really an interesting theory/observation.


catch



There are so many different 'types' of men, that women shouldnt deal with. A thug is just one of many.

With that being said.......most women, look for men that are financially stable, and able to support a home, family, etc. As virtue mentioned, these educated black men have degrees, and can move into well paying jobs. A lot of these brothers actually use their established lives, to pull women/friends. Their status, in the community is above all others.

Since women find this attractive (especially those women, who has worked to have in life).....a lot of women 'line up' for their attention and these men abuse this situation. Their behavior is brash, and unappealing.

You now have, a lot of sistas that have seen this process, or been a part of it...........and when meeting an educated brotha, she has negative feelings, and doesnt want to deal with him. Therefore that wall is standing there....

Example. I work as an intern. The second i meet a nice guy, and he tells me hes an attorney.......i get this sick feeling, that hes 'after' something, or he will mistreat me.......and i move on, because of this fear.

I guess women, have to make sure that we dont put all educated men in one bucket, but its hard. Frown


Again.....this is just my opinion. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
...And a question was asked so I thought I shed light on what I know actual women are saying....

a god.... heavy word.... yes.... loaded with meaning.....

but these women aren't crack pots.....
some of them use this word..... because of the strength attached to it.....

This shows me the importance of certain qualities....

This also shows me the desperation to see this aspect of manhood played out......

So much so..... that they'll even turn towards a thug to receive it.....

Peace,
Virtue


Virtue, thanks for articulating such a foreigh (to me) point of view - theirs, not yours. Wink

Time is tight for me today so let me cut to the chase (I don't have time to read all the other responses, so apologies for that)...

First, just to clarify - you are intimating that these women date thugs because they see thugs - and their relationship with them - as say, 'sticking their middle finger up' at societal controls - in particular (or exclusively) at white priviledge and control?

If that's the case, I can almost see why women who are more educated do this - because although I am guessing - perhaps despite all their education... as black women they still feel a lack of control in their lives, and feel disenfranchised.

Two questions please...

1. are these women aware that is what they are doing?
2. and, if so, are they also aware how detriental this behaviour/choice (conscious or otherwise) is to them, their potential mate, their community and their sense of self-worth?
.
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Wouldn't he be entering the world of nonexistence due to the notion that many black women just can't seem to bring themselves to recognize and acknowledge the few established brothers that are already around? To exchange this means to loose the sexual favor of the black woman. Many self-loafing men would make a change overnight if there were a sudden shift in the preference of most black women from anti-social thugs to educated, clean-cut upright men.


So let's sum up your argument here. As far as you're concerned, it's women's fault that 800,000 Black men are incarcerated. It's women's fault that some Black men subscribe to a thug mentality and participate in thug behavior. It's women's fault that some Black men refuse to acknowledge and be responsible for the children that they father. And ultimately it's women's fault that a disproportionate number of Black men are not applying to colleges. All of these issues are the Black women's fault. And according to the "radical" ideas that you've proposed, if the overwhelming majority of Black women would simply bumrush the few established brothas that are already around, these issues would be solved. This is your argument. This is your solution.

Ok Um, Brother Detroit, here's an idea that's truly radical. Ready? This may blow your mind, so may want to sit down for this one. Try accepting responsibility for your actions. Try being accountable for the decisions that YOU make rather than blaming everyone else, least of all, "women" for your errors and problems. I know it will take some time to digest this "radical" idea, but just let it sink in.
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quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Your statement is under the assumption that people (in this case black women) mean exactly what they say. Maybe they complain just for the sake of complaining (and Mike knows this, but he's getting paid). I don't give people as much credit as you do. I like to weigh peoples voiced concerns against their actions/behavior. That is why I used the term cog. dis. to explain this contradiction.


Don't let one sista's conjured-up explanation mislead you into thinking that the judgements you've made about Black women are accurate. The subjective judgements that you're making about Black women are not based on facts, but your own personal observations, which perhaps, reveals something about the type of women to whom you are attracted. As I've said before, I don't date thugs, and I have never been attracted to thugs. My parents would never even have allowed me to bring a "thug" into our home. Therefore, you are conversing with one of many Black woman whose actions are in line with our beliefs. Now would you consider me an exception, an anomaly, an aberration of some sort? If so, then produce documented evidence proving that being "cognitive dissonant" is a psychological problem that plagues the majority of Black women. Women on this site have done our research. We have supplied articles, published research, statistics, and data supporting the arguments that we've been making about the scarcity of successful Black men. Where is your evidence, proving that the majority of Black women's inability to find successful Black men is a result of their being attracted to thugs?
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...


Awesome post 'Virtue'. I am somewhere in the middle of your 'theory'. Definately not interested in the thug; although I did meet a 'Good Will Hunting' guy several years ago @ Southern U. (Baton Rouge), and I tell you, it was 'touch n' go'; he was a math genius, but had that 'dangerous, 'scary' edge', that my gut instinct threw shade at. Wow! But, I totally get the need/want for not necessarily a God', but someone, who, as you so eloquently stated here:

"I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits..."""
----------------------------

excellent!
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
quote:
Originally posted by detroit1:
Why do so many established black men describe the response and reactions toward them by black women as being negative in nature?

If you were to witness the response and reaction black women give to established brothers, you would observe minimal involvement, no acknowledgement, defensive reflex, contempt type attitudes and even being threatened to some degree.

This contradiction between beliefs and actual actions is even further amplified when these women dismiss or reject the established black man to have relations with the opposite: undereducated and underemployed black men; thus rewarding and reinforcing dysfunctional behavior (washing the feet of unworthy men).

Ever wonder why is it that many black women can't seem to bring themselves to even acknowledge the mere existence of established brothas? Disillusioned; lying to themselves and others about this claimed nonexistence, manipulating and exaggerating the truth to paint a picture of an absolute "bum" black male population. Some sistas will even choose "underemployed black men" as the topic of discussion when conversing with employed black men.
May I? I have an opinion... based off of personal experience....

It is not natural to exist under the thumb of another culture and retain your dignity and peace.....

Our Men are supposed to be ruling in a world that reflects our history, our makeup and our future.....

(Not that sisters are not a part of this---sigh----I'm just focusing on Men for a second)

Many women I know want strong men.... The Alpha male is not always the brute..... he is simply the most powerful..... most powerful mind.... most powerful chess player....

I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits...

The thug.... has claimed his own identity and makes his own rules in his own world.... no matter how disgusting.... it's his.... his creation... out of nothing... but his.... he has power in this world... though limited... He's the man... not an agitator.... not crying out for help.... not working hard for recognition...


There's pride in ownership.... even if its a shack.... over a deluxe rental.... no matter how hard you make the maintenance men upkeep the apartment.... there's always the sense that you're renting..... subconsciously... perhaps.... they see in the "educated" man.... a rented man..... one that takes good care of the apartment..

This is the perception ...... not shallowly... but deep in our subconscious.... we want a King to match what we feel should be our Kingdom to rule...

I am simply explaining what I hear from some sisters... by no means all.... but these are educated, beautiful women... who think they want an educated man.... but would never say what I just wrote above.... they will think it and act on it..... because there is a part of them.... I hear it..... that admires the intelligence.... appreciates the ambition... longs for the status.... etc. etc.. but is disappointed or disgusted by his perceived lack of "true" power....

good men in this world secure a position that's stable and honorable....

gods create what they desire...

Somewhere these women want a god....

And to many the term is not an unattainable reality...


Awesome post 'Virtue'. I am somewhere in the middle of your 'theory'. Definately not interested in the thug; although I did meet a 'Good Will Hunting' guy several years ago @ Southern U. (Baton Rouge), and I tell you, it was 'touch n' go'; he was a math genius, but had that 'dangerous, 'scary' edge', that my gut instinct threw shade at. Wow! But, I totally get the need/want for not necessarily a God', but someone, who, as you so eloquently stated here:

"I suspect on some level subconsciously.... some Black women, no matter what the class level.... reject the man that has comfortably settled in a system created by a man... a people.... that have subjugated us.....

The educated man.... has thoroughly engaged himself in this world and is not a powerhouse in this world... but a good contributer.... he may rage against this world in the best of manner... he may fight oppression in this world..... he may fight injustice.... but he's still "comfortable" on some level..... Which means he has succomb to the succor of this world's benefits..."""
----------------------------

excellent!
Thanks! You know you made me think of another example.... If you saw the movie "Crash" there is a scene where Terrence Howard's character's wife is molested by a police officer in front him..... and he does nothing and feels powerless..... They are obviously well to do.... upper middle class....

There's also a scene where Matt Dillon's character saves Howard's wife.... after she has been degraded by him... and watched as her husband was emasculated before him..... it was He that "saved" her from a car crash... He risked his life to do it.....

Howard's reaction is to rage against society.... but it's too late really.... the damage is done...

Interesting....

Successful Black Man-- Emasculated....
Lower class White Man-- Image of a Hero...
Thug-- What the frustrated and powerless Black Man becomes to "feel" like he has control over his destiny.....

Ask Terrence Howard's character if he thinks that just rising to the top of this society is enough....

And I'm simply speaking from my experience with women who feel the same way....

You happened to bring up a topic I discuss often....

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by art_gurl:
Virtue, thanks for articulating such a foreigh (to me) point of view - theirs, not yours. Wink

Time is tight for me today so let me cut to the chase (I don't have time to read all the other responses, so apologies for that)...

First, just to clarify - you are intimating that these women date thugs because they see thugs - and their relationship with them - as say, 'sticking their middle finger up' at societal controls - in particular (or exclusively) at white priviledge and control?
Hmmmm... sticking their finger? I might not describe quite like that.... more along the lines of Thugs retaining a measure of their "manhood".... that has tried to be stripped away by this society...

quote:
If that's the case, I can almost see why women who are more educated do this - because although I am guessing - perhaps despite all their education... as black women they still feel a lack of control in their lives, and feel disenfranchised.

Two questions please...

1. are these women aware that is what they are doing?
Sometimes... Not always...

quote:
2. and, if so, are they also aware how detriental this behaviour/choice (conscious or otherwise) is to them, their potential mate, their community and their sense of self-worth?
.
They would say giving in to this society is much more damaging to their sense of self worth.... they would rather work with their brother who is a thug and is a man... than work with the people who enslaved us or those trying to fit in well with those that subjugate us.....when they are aware... When they aren't they would say no... I just want to feel like for a moment.... everything is the way it should be.... A thug, again, is not a long term commitment.... they are usually flings.... like a drug habit.... so no, they don't care about the things that you mention (self-worth etc.) they want to feel good for a time...

Peace,
Virtue
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
[
So let's sum up your argument here. As far as you're concerned, it's women's fault that 800,000 Black men are incarcerated. It's women's fault that some Black men subscribe to thug mentality and participate in thug behavior. It's women's fault for why some....


Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.


I can accept this response, but what's even more vexing--and perhaps you can help me to understand--is why don't these men who are always complaining about some women's attraction to thugs take heed to their own advice? Why don't they make better choices in women? If your relationship with a woman ends because ultimately she prefers to be with a misfit, then she is not a person that you want to be involved with in the first place! What's worse, if you find yourself consistently involved with street women, then I think a self-evaluation is in order.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
I AM STATING THE MENTALITY OF OTHERS THAT I HAVE NOT JUDGED.... Therefore it may seem like a taking their position when I am not.... But I understand it so I can explain it.



Sister Virtue, even though brother Detroit's thread is loaded with sweeping generalizations made about Black women, you should be credited for at least answering his question. However, unfortunately, growing up, some Black women had thugs for fathers, brothers, and uncles. Therefore, for some women, attracting and establishing relationships with professional men can be a difficult challenge. Think about this: How would you know how to relate to so-called "professional men," or just professional people in general, if growing up you've never seen examples of these type of people in your community? You've never seen such people come into your home, have dinner with you and your family members? How would you even begin to know how to communicate and conduct yourself in environments where professional people are commonly found? No one is willing to ponder these questions. Everyone prefers to blame rather than discuss the deep underlying issues that cause some people to fall by the wayside.
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Sadly, I hate to admit it, but I have sisters, female cousins and aunts who exhibit the mind-set & behavior that Virtue is talking about...they view men as either "Geeky" or "Gansta"; they acknowledge this, and make no apologies for it. They seem oblivious to how hypocritical they are, though: when black women achieves academic & socio-economical success, she demands applause & attention from men (that's fair); but when black men achieve this same level of success, they're considered arrogant, conceited, less "black" & less "manly", than that "thug" name Omar who only claim to fame is strutting & grabbing his dick; and my female relatives ALWAYS bitch & moan about how hard it is to find a "good man", yet oblivious to the fact that they are the ones that keep getting in their own way: "I always see Omar with some woman, he triflin' but he cute tho. (Smiling)He stupit...yeah I'd talk to him. ...Michael? He's...nice. He graduted, already?! He's a sharp brotha. He's aw'ight but I need a man with "style" & "strunf" Roll Eyes.

You just can't win.
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
And my female relatives ALWAYS bitch & moan about how hard it is to find a "good man", yet oblivious to the fact that they are the ones that keep getting in their own way: "I always see Omar with some woman, he triflin' but he cute tho. (Smiling)He stupit...yeah I'd talk to him. ...Michael? He's...nice. He graduted, already?! He's a sharp brotha. He's aw'ight but I need a man with "style" & "strunf" Roll Eyes.


You know these are the same issues that we are dealing with in the education field concerning some Black youth's attitude toward education. Many African-American youth, particularly, African-American males, when they reach a certain age, fear that by showing an interest in education, they will lose respect from their peers. Unfortunately, in the eyes of some Black youth, purusing an education and subsequent employment is viewed as an act of a "sell-out." I can't say that I don't know where they pick up these attitudes because after reading some of the views being expressed in AA.org, I can see where they get them: FROM ADULTS. Right in this thread, we have some men who disapprove of women's interest in thugs and then other men who disapprove of women's interest in professional men. So we can't win for losing! But if we want to change our youth's attitudes about education and professionalism, they will need better conceptions of success.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.


I can accept this response, but what's even more vexing--and perhaps you can help me to understand--is why don't these men who are always complaining about some women's attraction to thugs take heed to their own advice?


Personally, I've only directly experienced this once (as bad that was). I have indeed dated a variety of women from different backgrounds.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
but when black men achieve this same level of success, they're considered arrogant, conceited, less "black" & less "manly", than that "thug" name Omar who only claim to fame is strutting & grabbing his dick;


I have experienced this from some (and I stress some) professional women. It is strange isn't it?


It's worse than strange brother Honestbrother, its quite sad actually. It's sad that some Black people, in the 21st century, still cannot identify with success.
I'm quite accustomed to many black women going for the "thug" type whether he's a real thug or fashionable thug (which is normally the case), so I don't necessarily disapprove of women getting with them; I respect and appreciate a black woman's right to date/fuck whomever she wants...it's when this "strong, intelligent black woman" choses to ignore the consequences of dealing with these "thug" types-that's what I dissaprove of; when shit hits the fan in this type of relationship, she comes down with a wicked case of Cognitive Dissonance - blaming everybody from the priest, to the milkman, the clerk at Pathmark, the bus-driver and the paper-boy long before taking responsibilty for her own actions for getting involved with Mr. Thug-life. She stresses her independence to date/fuck whomever she choses, and expect everybody to respect that right (that's fair); yet, when she sees me holding hands with a with a white girl name "Becky" (or some spanish girl name "Jaunita") she ignores my right to date/fuck whomever I want, and decides to "tell it like it is" saying I'm full of "self-hatred" & full of shit?! bang

Yes, HonestBrother, it is strange (cue Twilight Zone Theme song) Eek
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
She stresses her independence to date/fuck whomever she choses, and expect everybody to respect that right (that's fair); yet, when she sees me holding hands with a with a white girl name "Becky" (or some spanish girl name "Jaunita") she ignores my right to date/fuck whomever I want, and decides to "tell it like it is" saying I'm full of "self-hatred" & full of shit?! bang

Ahh... yes... and the wheel spins again... Frown
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Sister Virtue
Sister Rowe.... How are you? I miss the picture in your avatar of the woman in ceremonial dress and makeup... she was beautiful....

quote:
even though brother Detroit's thread is loaded with sweeping generalizations made about Black women, you should be credited for at least answering his question.
Dear Sister.... I used to be a philosohpy major and English major... If I wanted to pick apart his argument.... I could....

But I sensed pain in his question.... a yearining and confusion.... I decided not to intellectually debate him.... but to offer comfort in understanding.... I simply wanted him to know that his experiences have reasons.... and there are many varied reasons.... mine is one of many....


--Qty's experience is one where some Intelligent Black Women in some twisted logic may actually feel safer with a thug... or someone unemployed because they are intimidated by Successful Black Men.....

--You just described how some women turn to thugs because that is all they have known....

The point is.... he's not off... we are human... we have varied experiences.... no matter how painful..... and in our community of Black women.... we have different tastes, motives... and choices.... He is a man... looking at a phenomenon around him and doesn't understand it.... I simply was hoping to shed a bit of light for him.... not lower the image of Black Women or generalize us.... There are many beautiful Black sisters on this board that are a testament that we are more rich and varied than others may give us credit for... I think the brothers here know this and respect it......


quote:
Everyone prefers to blame rather than discuss the deep underlying issues that cause some people to fall by the wayside.
I see it less as blame... more as "venting" and in all honesty... "trusting" that there will be someone here to help sort through this with him.... I could be wrong.... but nonetheless I don't feel he was blaming Black Women for anything.... People tend to speak in generalizations..... the conundrum is that this isn't always the intention... so I give others the benefit of the doubt.... everyone's true colors show eventually.... and then I change or not change accordingly....



Peace,
Virtue
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quote:

Cognitive dissonance is a perceived inconsistency between two cognitions in which the person believes one thing but then acts in a different way from what they believed. Or holds other beliefs which conflct with the first.


I should point out that "cognitive dissonance" is a term with a much wider field of applicability than the mating habits of particular people. The definition given above is more or less accurate. And we all suffer from cognitive dissonance on some level.
Good topic detroit1 - Don't let a few haughty, bulldog responses discourage you. Of all places, Black men and women should be able to honestly discuss the phenomena around them at AA.org, especially when it pertains to Black folk. Instead of sweeping things under the rug & denying they happen, we need more honest answers like virtue's. We may not always like the answers, but ultimately we appreciate them.


If anything, detroit1 is asking the sisters here to talk to other sisters, since no one here is guilty of the behavior described. Just like we (men) are constantly implored to get our acts together (even if we aren't guilty of the behavior described by women here) and talk to our wayward brothers, we can ask the same of you.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

Yes, among other issues, this topic is a heavily debated issue in Washington, DC. In fact, a popular radio host by the name of Michael Baisden discusses this issue quite often on his radio program. And each time that he brings this issue up ("Single Black Women"), a swarm of Black women call in to voice their concerns. I'm only 29 years old, and right now, I'm doing OK in terms of dating. But after listening to all of these women well into their 30's and 40's calling and complaining, frankly, I'm beginning to get a little worried.



women should understand that as they age, their desirability in the dating/meet market goes down [for the most part]. Women simply have to change their strategy in their manhunting.
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quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
He is a man... looking at a phenomenon around him and doesn't understand it.... I simply was hoping to shed a bit of light for him.... not lower the image of Black Women or generalize us.... There are many beautiful Black sisters on this board that are a testament that we are more rich and varied than others may give us credit for... I think the brothers here know this and respect it......


Virtue
Your ability to see clearly and intuitively into the nature of this complex
issue is undeniable.
---------CONFLICT THEORY------------

I am beginning to see a new power struggle; originally, it was/is between the
established black man (representing patriarchy or what's left of it) and the
feminist ideology of the modern black woman.

Now I see a struggle between the established black man and the non-conforming
black thug; all for the favor of the black woman.

It will take an aggressive and firm foot to shatter the misconception that thugs
are deserving of the black woman's favor.

Question is how important is it to the traditional, structured black man that he
be number one in the eye of all black women?

I don't believe that the favoritism many black women have for thugs is sincere
and genuine. To me, this preference is out of pure spite and defiance of the black
Patriarch (past, present and future).
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
If anything, detroit1 is asking the sisters here to talk to other sisters, since no one here is guilty of the behavior described. Just like we (men) are constantly implored to get our acts together (even if we aren't guilty of the behavior described by women here) and talk to our wayward brothers, we can ask the same of you.


Very good good point ddouble! tfro
Hey, Viking, what can I say, this is the type of world we live in, and I'm only refering to the black women that are like my female relatives & Virtue's friends: black women who are the SOURCE of their own CD, but too immature to own up to it.

We blacks have a history of WANTING to see black men occupy higher stations in the world for the sole purpose of inspiring us to do just as good or better...also, to prove the hordes of racist naysayers wrong. Let me ask you all a question, how many times have this happen to you: whenever you'd witnessed a matter of consequence taking place (be it in the corporate world, politics or science etc) wouldn't there always be another black person that nudge you and say (under their breath): "Notice there ain't no black people there, right" or "Where da brothas" (then you both would give each other *that look*)?

To rid ourselves of this tired-ass, self-defeating scenerio, black men had to prove that they are just as good as, just as smart as, just as competent as and just as creative as...it's fuckin annoying when these very same achievements are used AGAINST black men in a negative way, especially by black women (like my relatives) who CONSTANTLY bitch & moan about good-man shortages, man-crises and supposedly lousy dating-pools filled with UNATTRACTIVE, UNEMPLOYED, UNEDUCATED, UNAMBITIOUS black men who "ain't about shit".


"Cognitive Dissonance" is a clever sounding clinical name, but in lay terms it's really just a cute way of saying (a black person's) social ineptitude generated from the fear of rejection, followed by a BRUTAL REALITY-CHECK (where he/she is forced to evaluate & acknowledge where they REALLY stand in the black social strata).

My Prescription: Grow the fuck up, stop getting in your own way, and learn the kind of social skills that are conducive to the type of love/social life you so desire (men & women alike). C'mon!!
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
Women's fault...Men's fault... we're both conditioned to live in this system which was not created by us. We're all at fault and none of us at fault at the same time.


I can accept this response, but what's even more vexing--and perhaps you can help me to understand--is why don't these men who are always complaining about some women's attraction to thugs take heed to their own advice? Why don't they make better choices in women? If your relationship with a woman ends because ultimately she prefers to be with a misfit, then she is not a person that you want to be involved with in the first place! What's worse, if you find yourself consistently involved with street women, then I think a self-evaluation is in order.


Aint that the truth....that is why that it is my life's goal to avoid with a passion only matched by my desire to be a great pathologist, sistas who share or strongly hold onto the idealology of the ideal god/thug man....it is a futile idea bread out of childish notions that should have been discarded a long time ago....and it entails nothing but anguish for guys like me...So, Rowe, your suggestion is well taken and actually has been acted upon over the last several years.
quote:
Originally posted by Max:
I'm quite accustomed to many black women going for the "thug" type whether he's a real thug or fashionable thug (which is normally the case), so I don't necessarily disapprove of women getting with them; I respect and appreciate a black woman's right to date/fuck whomever she wants...it's when this "strong, intelligent black woman" choses to ignore the consequences of dealing with these "thug" types-that's what I dissaprove of; when shit hits the fan in this type of relationship, she comes down with a wicked case of Cognitive Dissonance - blaming everybody from the priest, to the milkman, the clerk at Pathmark, the bus-driver and the paper-boy long before taking responsibilty for her own actions for getting involved with Mr. Thug-life. She stresses her independence to date/fuck whomever she choses, and expect everybody to respect that right (that's fair); yet, when she sees me holding hands with a with a white girl name "Becky" (or some spanish girl name "Jaunita") she ignores my right to date/fuck whomever I want, and decides to "tell it like it is" saying I'm full of "self-hatred" & full of shit?! bang

Yes, HonestBrother, it is strange (cue Twilight Zone Theme song) Eek


My sentiments exactly....
I understand where Detroit1 is coming from...I live in Detroit, and the situation is a bit different than in other regions of the U.S.

Yes, there are SOME Black Women who make bad choices in their relationships and lives. As there are Black men who do the same...I grew up in a negative environment, and had to contend with the "negative-types".

Over the years, I've actually helped about twenty of these people (fifteen male, five female) to get their stuff together.

There were certain truths I've come to accept:

1) The universe is that which it is; not what we want it to be. Improvement takes time, hard work and dedication,
2) The challenge is to be the best individual you can be.
3) It is better to try and fail, than to never try at all"”the true failure is in never making the attempt.
4) You can sit on the side-lines of life if you wish to, but in doing so you lose the right to gripe.
5) When ever you see a person for the first time, one must remember that there's more to that individual's life than the moment when you first see them.
6) This is true for all. Yes, even the white guy in the BMW...He has to make payments on that car, and that house, and that suit and all the other stuff this society forces upon him. Most U.S. citizens are one payday away from disaster. The time/energy one spends hating is put to better use building one's life and improving one's situation.
7) Not all women are evil (I just had the bad luck of attracting negative women) and not all women are the marrying kind. (yes, the same is true of men.)
8) The easiest way to enslave a person is to give him everything he wants"”but first, he must be instructed what to want. (And never to question why he wants it.)
I've learned long ago to take what black women say they want with a grain of salt. As long as I'm doing right by me and mine I can afford to wait for "Ms. Right" (whatever that means). Let the "thugs" *or as I like to call them..."gangstas lite"* have the women. I no longer give a damn. She might be with "2 cents" but shes eyeing my platinum Visa. She's hanging all over "CB 4" but shes with her friends talking about my Armani three piece suit with the patton leather Giorgio shoes. And I'm laughing the whole time. When she's ready to grow up and step into the big leagues she knows where to find me. Until then, let her say one thing and do another. Real men have better things to do with thier time.....Peace! dance
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
Gambit...

Question...

I know youre a decent guy, with a beautiful daughter that you adore.

With that being said.....are there no decent women in your area...that you could possibly meet?

Are you saying, that all of these women are either looking for financial gain, or want to deal with thugs?


So far since I was put back here by my job all I've encountered are women that desire the "rap video" lifestyle (even though its nowhere around here except in clothing fashions) and women who are goldiggers and proudly proclaim it...although I do give them props for being honest and upfront about it..so I volunteer for TDY's (tempory tour of duty) just to meet other women in different cities and countries now. sad
Sister Rowe.... How are you? I miss the picture in your avatar of the woman in ceremonial dress and makeup... she was beautiful....

I'm doing well. The woman featured in my last avatar was actually a native African woman from the Fulani tribe. I'll put the image of the woman up again, in the future.

quote:
But I sensed pain in his question.... a yearining and confusion....I decided not to intellectually debate him.... but to offer comfort in understanding.


Dig Deeper, and Start Pursuing Women of Substance, Not Pin-Up Bimbo Models

Sister there are a lot of people here who are confused and in pain, apparently. Therefore this brother's grievances are no different from those that have been expressed here before. One of the ways that we can address his confusion, however, is by not allowing his misconceptions about women to go unchallenged. I hate to come across as mean, but what I've noticed is that it's usually busters who know darn well that they're out of their league that go after the the most superficial, most attractive, most image-conscious women they can find. Unfortunately, however, these are the type of women who are often the LEAST interested in them. After their self-confidence has taken one punch too many, then they want to come into a dicussion forum and bitch about how "all women are stuck up, materialistic, and superficial." Well if you're pursuing women who are like this, then what the hell else can you expect! But if you instead pursued women in your league, and more importantly, women of SUBSTANCE rather than women who you deem good enough to parade in front of their friends, then perhaps you would not face constant rejection. After unsuccessfully picking "lookers" to pursue, don't come in here blaming us cause you can't get you a "dime piece." Why not get a 5 piece with a 10+ brain, someone with whom you can actually build a worthwhile relationship, rather than just fuck on the weekends and front off before your friends.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
I'm doing well. The woman featured in my last avatar was actually a native African woman from the Fulani tribe. I'll put the image of the woman up again, in the future.


Sister Rowe, she was quite beautiful indeed. I look forward to her return Smile

quote:

I hate to come across as mean, but what I've noticed is that it's usually busters who know darn well that they're out of their league that go after the the most superficial, most attractive, most image-conscious women they can find. Unfortunately, however, these are the type of women who are often the LEAST interested in them. After their self-confidence has taken one punch too many, then they want to come into a dicussion forum and bitch about how "all women are materialistic and superficial." But if these men pursued women in their league, and more importantly women of SUBSTANCE rather than women who they deem good enough to parade in front of their friends, then perhaps they wouldn't face constant rejection.


It seems that we had a similar discussion sometime ago and sistas insisted on their right to go after the "cream of the crop" - apparently some were sick and tired of being told to be more "realistic".... my gosh to even possibly consider a talented janitor with a bright future....


hmmmmm
Don't worry, I'm featuring another beauty in my avatar soon. All I'm saying is you get what you go after. I hate to use myself as an example, because I don't want to be the focus of this disucssion. But admittedly, I'm very image-conscious. Immaculate grooming, quality dress, and making an impression are all very important to me. But every now and again, I get this busted-ass dude looking like "Who done it?" coming up to me asking me out on a date. Why the hell would I want to be seen with someone who can't even keep lint out his hair and cold crust out of his eyes? On one occasion, after telling dude that I definitely was not interested in him, he called me stuck up. Whatever.

Because men are supposedly more visual than women, a mistake they often make when seeking women is to consider a woman's looks first, and the compatibility between himself and the woman later (often times too damn late). In other words, they see a woman who is drop dead gorgeoes, and immediately, they go after her. Never does it dawn on them, however, to ask themselves prior to approaching the woman, What do I have in common with this woman? or Will she find me attractive? Men don't think before they do something, they just impulsively act on picking up a woman, deciding to just "work out the kinks" later. And that is what I don't understand. If you're going to use this method of dating, then don't get mad at us for rejecting you.
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quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:

I hate to come across as mean, but what I've noticed is that it's usually busters who know darn well that they're out of their league that go after the the most superficial, most attractive, most image-conscious women they can find. Unfortunately, however, these are the type of women who are often the LEAST interested in them. After their self-confidence has taken one punch too many, then they want to come into a dicussion forum and bitch about how "all women are materialistic and superficial." But if these men pursued women in their league, and more importantly women of SUBSTANCE rather than women who they deem good enough to parade in front of their friends, then perhaps they wouldn't face constant rejection.


It seems that we had a similar discussion sometime ago and sistas insisted on their right to go after the "cream of the crop" - apparently some were sick and tired of being told to be more "realistic".... my gosh to even possibly consider a talented janitor with a bright future....


hmmmmm


And when the discussion took place, sister Rowe was nowhere to be seen with this advice for the ladies. And she continues on with the nuggets of wisdom, just for us. I think I'll start posting some of her responses to the men (changing gender where appropriate, of course!) when responding to the ladies...
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
And when the discussion took place, sister Rowe was nowhere to be seen with this advice for the ladies. And she continues on with the nuggets of wisdom, just for us.


Brother Ddouble, are you implying that women and men pursue relationships in the same ways? Haven't we all reached the conclusion that men have a tendency to select women based on looks, whereas women select men based on income? So why would I give you all the same advice that I would give women? Secondly, in my view, though the two discussions centered on the same topic, the argument that was presented then, and the argument that's being presented now are not the same. In the discussion brother Honestbrother is referencing, the women, sister Frenchy in particular, was not defending a right to discriminately date superficial and materialistic men. Essentially, Frenchy was defending her right to fashion her own conception (whether it was a lawyer or a janitor) of what a "creme of crop" man means to her. And rather than acknowledging her argument, many of you all insisted on imposing your views of what you thought creme of crop meant to Frenchy, even though she never stated or described what her actual conception was.

If brother Detroit, however, re-enters this discussion, either today or tomorrow, to tell me that he does in fact pursue women of substance (that is, women who have a lot more to offer a relationship, other than their looks), then I will accept his testament as the truth, rather than reading something into his statements that are just not there.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Brother Ddouble, are you implying that women and men pursue relationships in the same ways? Haven't we all reached the conclusion that men have a tendency to select women based on looks, whereas women select men based on income? So why would I give you all the same advice that I would give women? Finally, in my view, though the two discussions centered on the same topic, the arguments that were being presented are not the same. In the discussion brother Honestbrother is referencing, the women, sister Frenchy in particular, was not defending a right to discriminately date superficial men. Essentially, Frenchy was defending her right to fashion her own conception (whether it was a lawyer or a janitor) of what a "creme of crop" man means to her.


Come, come, Rowe!

Pursue people of substance (not necessarily wealthy or good looking), people in your league, people with things in common with you...

Much of what you just said goes over verbatim to the ladies.

In that discussion, Frenchy seemed to be defending the right to go after whatever - for whatever superficial reasons (lots o' moola for example) however unrealistic. And you all are whining and compaining because you're not getting these "cream of the crop" men (whatever that means to you).

I can NOT believe you don't see the parallels.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
In that discussion, Frenchy seemed to be defending the right to go after whatever - for whatever superficial reasons (lots o' moola for example) however unrealistic.


Ok, you could be right. I came in on the discussion late. If she was defending the right to purse men for superficial reasons, then I do not support that. I thought the women were defending the right to have whatever conception of men they wanted.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Ok, you could be right. I came in on the discussion late. If she was defending the right to purse men for superficial reasons, then I do not support that. I thought the women were defending the right to have whatever conception of men they wanted.


She didn't specify a conception. But "cream of the crop" is a phrase that seems to imply "the sky's the limit"
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
I'm doing well. The woman featured in my last avatar was actually a native African woman from the Fulani tribe. I'll put the image of the woman up again, in the future.
Great! It would be nice to see..... Her beauty was captivating.... I have a cousin that looks like that....

quote:
Dig Deeper, and Start Pursuing Women of Substance, Not Pin-Up Bimbo Models
Hmmmm... I did not see where his question made reference to him approaching shallow Bimbo's...

quote:
Sister there are a lot of people here who are confused and in pain, apparently. Therefore this brother's grievances are no different from those that have been expressed here before.
If there are many here who are confused and in pain.... then is it wrong to offer solace through understanding? And I have been away from the board for many months until now... so even if he or others have expressed their grievances before.... usually this is the mark of one who is trying to say that there questions aren't answered.... or for some reason their mind is still at unease.... I see this as human.... not something to be frustrated with.....

quote:
One of the ways that we can address his confusion, however, is by not allowing his misconceptions about women to go unchallenged.
Agreed... that is... if he really has a misconception.... I really don't think he does.... because I have experienced what he has articulated.... I know women like this..... they are not Bimbo's, shallow, lower class etc.... and this is the confusion I think he refers to.... how can some women make such bad choices in a partner? I don't think he specified whether the woman was a Bimbo or not... if he did then that would not be a contradiction.... He spoke of a contradiction.... so if I had to assume.... I would assume he meant a woman with "some" substance... at least in his eyes.... the women he deems are worthy are making odd choices to him..... I happen to know women who are of substance..... who make crazy choices.... I consider myself a woman of substance and I've made crazy choices before.... and I have to reflect on why..... it happens... no big deal... you reflect, analyze, learn... and move on....

quote:
I hate to come across as mean,
I don't think so.... Smile.... You strike me as a woman who is very focused and confident about her view of life....

quote:
but what I've noticed is that it's usually busters who know darn well that they're out of their league that go after the the most superficial, most attractive, most image-conscious women they can find. Unfortunately, however, these are the type of women who are often the LEAST interested in them. After their self-confidence has taken one punch too many, then they want to come into a dicussion forum and bitch about how "all women are stuck up, materialistic, and superficial." Well if you're pursuing women who are like this, then what the hell else can you expect! But if you instead pursued women in your league, and more importantly, women of SUBSTANCE rather than women who you deem good enough to parade in front of their friends, then perhaps you would not face constant rejection. After unsuccessfully picking "lookers" to pursue, don't come in here blaming us cause you can't get you a "dime piece." Why not get a 5 piece with a 10+ brain, someone with whom you can actually build a worthwhile relationship, rather than just fuck on the weekends and front off before your friends.
When I see this type of response by brothers... I usually ignore it.... but I don't here...


Peace,
Virtue
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Perhaps it is a matter of maturity. Some younger brothers and sisters are still attempting to navigate through this maze we call life. As experience is without question the best teacher, many people tend to "get it together" when their priorities are set, their goals are established and they begin to incorporate life's lessons into their thought processes and take deliberate steps to establish their goals, priorities, and futures. This applies not only to relationships, but to life in general.

Education does not equal intelligence as we all know there are brothers and sisters who are "educated" idiots. Part of knowing what you want in a relationship is knowing what you do NOT want. Trial, error, and a few broken hearts are the way many people get their dual degrees in "lifeology" and "relationshipology" which are the only "degrees" that truly matter when it comes to matters of the heart. Unfortunately, far too many have a difficult time when the school of life presents us with courses in "thugology" and "chickenheadology". If an individual can not pass those courses, it is impossible to graduate. Far too many individuals are taking remedial courses in these subjects because they just don't get it!

Far too often, many educated individuals of both genders tend to discuss their degrees and credentials ad nauseum as though their academic achievements in and of themselves make them a great romantic catch. Okay, so you have your MBA and are a business executive. Terrific!!! Now, how good are you at making light conversation, making me laugh, being my partner, and having my back when sh*t gets rough?

Conversely (and thankfully), many individuals with or without formal degrees discuss their lives, dreams, and goals which makes for far more interesting conversation. If all an individual has to bring to the relationship table is academic credentials, it is time to, as my Twin says, banish them to the "hell naw" zone! You can't go forward looking back, and that degree is history so let's step into the now!

I could eat cold Beefaroni out of a can with an individual who is focused, committed, has his degree in "lifeology", has his priorities straight, and is on a deliberately chartered course. I would gag on filet mignon if it is garnished with a few pieces of paper that merely serve to put a few letters after a name but has prepared them for absolutely nothing. As always, it is merely my humble opinion.
Wonderful post, Sandye. kiss

Many folks can say that some men and women are pursuing those out of one's league. The question is "what" league are we in? Are the leagues measured by height? Body tone? Income? Confidence level?

I was friends with many female jocks and cheerleaders because I knew them in my classes. Many of my male friends in college didn't try to talk to them b/c they thought they weren't in they're "league." But they gave me high fives sometimes, thinking I was "macking" them, but I really talking to them about the homework.

I'll admit that looking back at the gymnasts, cheerleaders and homecoming queens that I asked out, MANY of them were out of my league. Fortunately, I didn't care because I gotten props from my friends for being brave enough to approach them.

I used to think that I was out of their league when I counted all the no's I received back in the day, but a former co-worker once said to me, "there's no such thing as out of one's league. If you believe you're less than, then you'll never achieve or take a risk in anything." And he was right. There's no major league and (AAA)minor league versions of "Love Connection."

IMHO, no ones wants to believe that they're out of anyone's league, real or not. And as long as there's shows like The Bachelor, The Bachelorette, Joe Millionaire and Flavor of Love (shuddering) on the air, don't come to me with some "I'm out of your league" crap.

If there are women fighting (staged or not) over Flavor Flav, and you KNOW he's not making any cash or records (no Diddy or Jay-Z $$$) since most of his money is going to child support for his 6 or 7 kids, anything is possible. Since I don't have kids at all, maybe there's hope for me. Big Grin
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandye:
Perhaps it is a matter of maturity. Some younger brothers and sisters are still attempting to navigate through this maze we call life..... Far too often, many educated individuals of both genders tend to discuss their degrees and credentials ad nauseum as though their academic achievements in and of themselves make them a great romantic catch. ....* Now, how good are you at making light conversation, making me laugh, being my partner, and having my back when sh*t gets rough? *.........I could eat cold Beefaroni out of a can with an individual who is focused, committed, has his degree in "lifeology", has his priorities straight, and is on a deliberately chartered course. I would gag on filet mignon if it is garnished with a few pieces of paper that merely serve to put a few letters after a name but has prepared them for absolutely nothing. As always, it is merely my humble opinion.


bow bow bow bow bow bow

appl

Beautiful post! kiss
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
If brother Detroit, however, re-enters this discussion, either today or tomorrow, to tell me that he does in fact pursue women of substance (that is, women who have a lot more to offer a relationship, other than their looks), then I will accept his testament as the truth, rather than reading something into his statements that are just not there.


Not to leave you hanging, but sure; I pursue women of substance. (I didn't mean
to infer that I didn't).

I'll share. Substance to me as a balance of mind, body and soul: A combination of tacit intelligence, enticing physical and a heart sweet as pie.

And like many men, I've been through a developmental stage in life where I made the mistake of seeking out sistas strictly based on how good the sight of her in tight pants/jeans fit her thighs and ass; I was totally helpless to it.

Fortunately, I evolved pass the two dimensional to a point where I find the most
assurance in non-tangible, real qualities like personality; I've come to realize that a
women's beauty is projected from her inside out coming together in everything
that she is. This didn't happen biologically; I had to figure this out on my own.
quote:
Originally posted by virtue:
I know women like this..... they are not Bimbo's, shallow, lower class etc.... and this is the confusion I think he refers to.... how can some women make such bad choices in a partner?


Sister Virtue, brother Detroit never used the word some to describe his perception of Black women. As far as brother Detroit is concerned, Black women make poor choices in men in general because we're all suffering from what he described as "cognitive dissonance." But the truth is, women from all racial categories make "bad" choices in men, and men do the same. If they didn't, they wouldn't be in here complaining about the unsuccessful choices they've made.

The reason why I'm so disturbed by the ideas being presented in this thread is because I take strong offense to this general perception of women as being these emotionally-unstable, dim-witted, and niave women who require "special guidance." Not surprisingly, this seems to be the chauvinistic perception of women that most men here have adopted, even though they make the very same poor choices. Ironically, when women are going the process of determining what's important in a relationship, we're judged for making "bad choices." When men go through the very same process, they're given a free pass for just "sorting their wild oats." Going around chasing ass is understood to be just apart of "being a man."

And like many men, I've been through a developmental stage in life where I made the mistake of seeking out sistas strictly based on how good the sight of her in tight pants/jeans fit her thighs and ass; I was totally helpless to it.-Detroit
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Detroit1 meant SOME women, and because I live in the area I can attest to what happens on the singles scene on Friday and Saturday nights. This has been going on for well over twenty years. This issue with people (In Detroit, it is mostly women) who testify to holding one standard, but somehow magically end up with an individual who is the exact opposite; as most men know that SOME brothers are great, and others are truly hazardous. There are many who are in strong, loving, real relationships, these people are often not heard from"”simply because they are living their lives"”happily.

Men are expected to speak their minds and be consistent in action. I am, personally, a "legit" or "square" type, thus the ladies dismissed me.

The amazing thing is, Thugs are antisocial"”they espouse a philosophy which is destructive of others (Black-on-Black crime, remember?) and destructive of self, and these people live lives of delusion"”it's all about them, and what they want. Yet women do the choosing, and by choosing the Thug, they choose one of the major contributing factors of black cultural decline--they validate his mind-set. (To hell with those collage Mo'Fo's.) ... some Black women actually choose to visit their child's father with a sheet of glass separating them, or six-feet of dirt. Tell me how this is logical.

The God/King (?) by those very words it is implicit how unattainable this individual is. I am but a common man, but every Black Woman is a Queen. All of you can't be the kind of woman a God would want"”not to mention the fury of competition. Yet you compare a flesh and blood man to a God"”and b*tch & moan because the mortal-males just never seem to measure up (despicable failures!) Explain how this desire of the unattainable ideal is rational.

(Now, when I was single, I dated models"”because I was in Advertising. I even dated "dancers", but these women never hinted their disgust with my inferiority"”then, they weren't Black.)

By the reasoning of some of the women who post here"”I should not be married. Then, my wife is just a woman, very wonderfully so!
quote:
Originally posted by thayfen:
The amazing thing is, Thugs are antisocial"”they espouse a philosophy which is destructive of others (Black-on-Black crime, remember?) and destructive of self, and these people live lives of delusion"”it's all about them, and what they want. Yet women do the choosing, and by choosing the Thug, they choose one of the major contributing factors of black cultural decline--they validate his mind-set.


Because again, underneath it all, these particular women share the same mindset and backgrounds as the "thugs" to whom they are attracted. Usually, a woman who is attracted to thugs has a host of other issues with which she is dealing. The women that you are describing most likely grew up in dysfunctional homes and around "thuggish" people themselves. The parents most likely drank alcohol, smoked weed and cigarettes, ate poorly, had low ambition, and ultimately set poor examples to the children in their care. A woman who is raised in a conscious home, however, among people who are forward-thinking, will not pursue lost men, or even friendships with lost people, unless the frienship is motivated by a need to help the lost better themselves.

One of the brothers had suggested that we "talk" to other women who have misconceptions about what constituents a good man, but I generally do not associate with women like this, and so I do not know any on a personal level. As soon as I suspect a woman who I've recently met has serious "issues," I usually keep a distance.
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Wow... The implications are far reaching...you just blew me away Rowe, you just taught me something I suspected but could never prove. Thank you.

I guess I should feel privileged you would quote from one of my post.


Rowe. From where do you think this feeling of befuddlement comes? I am a product of one of "those" areas. This issue with women demonstrating a detrimental preference for "Thugs" is not limited to any one social/economic/educational segment of the population.

I've seen educated professional women (On approx. 30 occasions) take up with Thugs. Women who came from great families...that is what amazes myself. I wasn't good enough twenty years ago"”I have no degree, but I would never do the things these "Thugs" do, and this has been going on for over twenty years...I expected it would stop...by now.

You see, I actually care. I do not live in a vacuum, and there's enough pain in the AA community without Black people producing more.
You know, these discussions are becoming "which came first, the chicken or the egg". Sometimes men are at fault for failing relationships, other times women are at fault. Sometimes, the person in the mirror is the reason your s--t didn't work out! Damn people, it's ALL of our faults!. We can make better choices in mates. We can choose to behave honorably in our relationships. We can choose to open our hearts, in spite of past hurts. We can check our friends (and ourselves) when we go astray. We can choose to value productive, honorable qualities in our mates.

Instead of wasting all this time bickering, how about some honest discussion, brainstorming and problem solving. I agree with many of the assessments made by ladies here, just not in the universal tone with which they are stated. The men here also raise valid issues & concerns (likewise, the proclamations should not be considered universal). We've all been hurt in a relationship in our lives; there's no gender exclusion to that pain. IMO, it's these "bad" experiences that help you recognize & cherish the good ones. Humans crave social interaction - we do need each other, romantically & otherwise. To need someone does not make you weak or less than, it makes you human! We can choose to wallow in rage, arrogance, denial & pity, or we can dust ourselves off, give someone new (and ourselves) a fair chance and get back in the game.

Some translation is in order, then some compromise. Men are trying to understand on a practical, pragmatic level how to please women. Ladies, understand this may not be the way you process relationships, but it is critical to know. We sure as hell don't understand the way you do things, so we can stand to learn as well.

As much as I enjoy a good debate, we are rapidly approaching "beat a dead horse" territory. Can we get some non-accusatory consensus building around here?

With heart

I'm not your adversary, I'm your complement...
quote:
Originally posted by thayfen:
I've seen educated professional women (On approx. 30 occasions) take up with Thugs.


That is unfortunate. However brother Thayfen, being professional is not the same as being conscious. There are a lot of people who are being trained to become "professionals" and have very little interest and/or concern for their health, the company in which they keep, and more importantly, expanding their information base outside of traditional academia. And I'm saying that after a certain age, if you are still making complaints about "All Women Want Are Thugs," then perhaps you need to raise your conscious level and determine what it is that is precluding you from accurately distinguishing between those women who are conscious and those who are not, because I know some brothers, many of whom are very selective, who never complain about having to deal with these types of women.
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Please explain your use & definition of conscious. I'm having a difficult time with your declarations. Are you saying there are universal "levels" of consciousness? If so, what are they and which level allows you to eliminate all dating mismatches without getting to know that person? It sounds like you're using the term conscious simply to describe your dating preferences...

What specifically did these insightful men you spoke with say? What are they doing that yields them such results?
quote:
Originally posted by Sandye:
Perhaps it is a matter of maturity. Some younger brothers and sisters are still attempting to navigate through this maze we call life. As experience is without question the best teacher, many people tend to "get it together" when their priorities are set, their goals are established and they begin to incorporate life's lessons into their thought processes and take deliberate steps to establish their goals, priorities, and futures. This applies not only to relationships, but to life in general.

Education does not equal intelligence as we all know there are brothers and sisters who are "educated" idiots. Part of knowing what you want in a relationship is knowing what you do NOT want. Trial, error, and a few broken hearts are the way many people get their dual degrees in "lifeology" and "relationshipology" which are the only "degrees" that truly matter when it comes to matters of the heart. Unfortunately, far too many have a difficult time when the school of life presents us with courses in "thugology" and "chickenheadology". If an individual can not pass those courses, it is impossible to graduate. Far too many individuals are taking remedial courses in these subjects because they just don't get it!

Far too often, many educated individuals of both genders tend to discuss their degrees and credentials ad nauseum as though their academic achievements in and of themselves make them a great romantic catch. Okay, so you have your MBA and are a business executive. Terrific!!! Now, how good are you at making light conversation, making me laugh, being my partner, and having my back when sh*t gets rough?

Conversely (and thankfully), many individuals with or without formal degrees discuss their lives, dreams, and goals which makes for far more interesting conversation. If all an individual has to bring to the relationship table is academic credentials, it is time to, as my Twin says, banish them to the "hell naw" zone! You can't go forward looking back, and that degree is history so let's step into the now!

I could eat cold Beefaroni out of a can with an individual who is focused, committed, has his degree in "lifeology", has his priorities straight, and is on a deliberately chartered course. I would gag on filet mignon if it is garnished with a few pieces of paper that merely serve to put a few letters after a name but has prepared them for absolutely nothing. As always, it is merely my humble opinion.


Sandye,
you are way too modest but that what I love about you...the post is awesome! appl
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
What specifically did these insightful men you spoke with say? What are they doing that yields them such results?


To put it succintly, these men are on another level. Many of them are vegan, they don't drink, they don't smoke cigarettes (or weed), and they avoid intermingling (romatically) with lost people. And by doing this, they avoid the frustration that results from dealing with ignorant and lost women. Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind. This is why I have said that if a man desires to attract more distinguished types of women, then he must seriously evaluate his mindset in its current state. It is no secret that the people to whom we are attracted and with which we become involved are essentially a representation of who we are.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
What specifically did these insightful men you spoke with say? What are they doing that yields them such results?


To put it succintly, these men are on another level. Many of them are vegan, they don't drink, they don't smoke cigarettes (or weed), and they avoid intermingling (romatically) with lost people. And by doing this, they avoid the frustration that results from dealing with ignorant and lost women. Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind. This is why I have said that if a man desires to attract more distinguished types of women, then he must seriously evaluate his mindset in its current state. It is no secret that the people to whom we are attracted and with which we become involved are essentially a representation of who we are.


This is easy to say if you live in D.C. or New York....

That's it! I need to move... There's no one in this whole part of the country remotely like this Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind.

These guys don't get out much do they? They sound to me to be excessively critical over superficial nonsense. But, to each his own...
I'm truly beginning to believe that your selection is also going to be strongly determined by where you live. Here in Kentucky there are plenty of single professional women but after you weed out the hyper-Christianized Bible thumping church goers you really don't want to have anything to do with the thug lovers who are left...

There really honest to God doesn't seem to be anything else here....
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quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind.

These guys don't get out much do they? They sound to me to be excessively critical over superficial nonsense. But, to each his own...


What seems "petty" to you is important to others.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm truly beginning to believe that your selection is also going to be strongly determined by where you live. Here in Kentucky there are plenty of single professional women but after you weed out the hyper-Christianized Bible thumping church goers you really don't want to have anything to do with the thug lovers who are left...

There really honest to God doesn't seem to be anything else here....


Move. See what else is out there. I highly recommend it.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
What specifically did these insightful men you spoke with say? What are they doing that yields them such results?


To put it succintly, these men are on another level. Many of them are vegan, they don't drink, they don't smoke cigarettes (or weed), and they avoid intermingling (romatically) with lost people. And by doing this, they avoid the frustration that results from dealing with ignorant and lost women. Some of them are so selective that they will not date a woman who chemically straightens her hair, because a woman who is willing to sacrifice her health in order to conform to a Eurocentric standard of beauty reveals something about that woman's state of mind. This is why I have said that if a man desires to attract more distinguished types of women, then he must seriously evaluate his mindset in its current state. It is no secret that the people to whom we are attracted and with which we become involved are essentially a representation of who we are.


You still did not explain what puts these men on "another level" as you put it. You just described more personal preferences. Being vegan is a choice - not necessarily a better one than eating meats. Vegans have their own health issues to deal with. There are some nutrients that are hard to come by in vegan diets. Particularly if they do not consume diary. Drinking in moderation is shown to improve heart health and lipid profiles, so being a non-drinker isn't inherently better either. How do you determine someone is "lost" at first sight? It takes at least one conversation, maybe more to determine compatability. A person can do all the things these men do and still be ignorant and lost. They could date women that share their preferences that still are ignorant and lost.

What does distinguished mean to you? Is it education? Social status? Fashion sense? Age? Wealth? Diet? This is also a bit ambiguous. Once you define this for me, please explain how this stops one from being a poor dating choice or making poor dating choices?

Your last sentence cannot be proven in any manner, so I'll leave it alone.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm truly beginning to believe that your selection is also going to be strongly determined by where you live. Here in Kentucky there are plenty of single professional women but after you weed out the hyper-Christianized Bible thumping church goers you really don't want to have anything to do with the thug lovers who are left...

There really honest to God doesn't seem to be anything else here....


stay put bruh. DC area, Atlanta area, baltimore area, NYC area are pretty much all that same pool that you have there in KY. I hear rural South women maybe be better choices, maybe I'll look into that someday, but Big city women giveup
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
I'm truly beginning to believe that your selection is also going to be strongly determined by where you live. Here in Kentucky there are plenty of single professional women but after you weed out the hyper-Christianized Bible thumping church goers you really don't want to have anything to do with the thug lovers who are left...

There really honest to God doesn't seem to be anything else here....


stay put bruh. DC area, Atlanta area, baltimore area, NYC area are pretty much all that same pool that you have there in KY. I hear rural South women maybe be better choices, maybe I'll look into that someday, but Big city women giveup


It's not that bad in the A - you have more variety in the pool.
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Being vegan is a choice - not necessarily a better one than eating meats.


I disagree. Natural meat eaters eat flesh raw. Accordingly, natural meat eaters have claws, sharp teeth, sweat through the mouth, have a short intenstine which is two thirds the length of their bodies (humans are 30 ft. long), their jaws move up and down only, and the stomach can digest hair. Humans lack all of these natural meat eating habits and attributes. Furthermore, the human intestinal tract causes meat to stay in the body for up to 3 days. This causes toxins to be aborbed in the body creating diseases, while the natural meat eater's raw-flesh diet allows meat to leave quickly (1 day or less). In addition, flesh eating increases the workload of the kidneys and the liver. Consequently, this decreases man's ability to biochemically protect himself. Aside from this, animals secrete adrenaline into their bodies as a reaction to the fear caused by the slaughterhouse environment. This adrenaline poisons the flesh and creates toxins. Lastly, many types of diseases are transmitted by dead animals. The disease of Salmonella poisoning causes symptoms which resemble "colds," "flus," and "viruses." These symptoms are misdiagnosed and treated with "cold" medicines. There are of course many other health risks associated with eating meat, but just considering the information that we have discussed thus far, I would say that people who adhere to limited or meat-abstaining diets are indeed much healthier, for a myriad of reasons, than those who do not. They are also a lot less susceptible to premature death compared to non-meat eaters.

quote:
There are some nutrients that are hard to come by in vegan diets. Particularly if they do not consume diary.


It is mistake to assume that eating meat and dairy will provide all of the nutrients your body needs. Even meat and dairy consumers suffer from vitamin deficiency. This is why nutritionists recommend that both vegans and meat-eaters integrate supplements into their diets. Vitamins are given the name of vitamins because they are considered "vital to life." Vitamins both energize and minerally stablize the body. For these reasons, it is important to take vitamins, regardless of your dietary status. Dairy products are especially unsafe. Icecream and cheese in particular are totally unsafe. Icecream is made from cheese by-products, butter, butter oil, evaporated milk, condensed milik, all types of buttermilk, all types of skim milk, milk treated with sodium hydroxide and disodium phosphate, plastic cream, dried cream, cheap poisonous thinners, propylene (paint remover, antifreeze), imitation flavors (used as flea killers, embalming fluid, leather tanners), industral flavor chemicals (have caution and innocuous poison labels on them), polyoxyethylenes (cancerous), sodium a carboxymethyl cellulose (cancer inciter), gelatin (increases germ growth), antioxidants, buffers, neutralizers, stabilizers, and other dangerous chemicals which have been approved by the FDA. The chemical content of icecream and cheese does not have to be listed on the label as it has been exempted by the FDA.

quote:
Drinking in moderation is shown to improve heart health and lipid profiles, so being a non-drinker isn't inherently better either.


There are other, less risker, ways to improve the heart's condition if that's a person's goal. Drinking alcohol, a beverage that has also been linked to a wide range of illnesses, such as the increased risk of mouth, pharyngeal and oesophageal cancers (this risk being greatly increased if combined with smoking), is not one of the ways that I would choose to do this, especially when there much more healthier, less dangerous ways to achieve the same goal.

quote:
How do you determine someone is "lost" at first sight? It takes at least one conversation, maybe more to determine compatability. What does distinguished mean to you?


Now is probably a good time to mention that many of these brothers that I know, as associates, are veteran members of the United Nation of Islam (U.N.O.I). They live by strict dietary rules (only foods that are as close to their natural state are consumed), rigid standards of behavior, and rarely do they become involved in a relationship unless there is a prospect for marriage, having understood that recreational relationships are a detriment to the Black community. And so, the odds of them being attracted to the average woman in the mainstream community are nil.

Although I do not identify with some of their fundamentalist religious beliefs (e.g., women having to wear their hair covered, the men being permitted to have more than one wife), these men are what I would consider "distinguished" men. That is, they are conscious about how they live.
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I'm well versed on matters of nutrition & fitness. If eating a vegan diet makes you feel better about yourself, great. Perhaps we'll discuss the pros & cons another time. If I break out the Pubmed studies, you're going to be in trouble! Big Grin
The point I'm trying to make clear for you is that everything you've named is simply preference. It in no way ensures a better caliber of dating experience or more character in a person. There are quite a few statements you present as fact that I have questions about, but I have to finish my protein shake and go to bed so I can build more muscle with all the meat I ate today! tongue
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by ddouble:
Being vegan is a choice - not necessarily a better one than eating meats.


I disagree. Natural meat eaters eat flesh raw. Accordingly, natural meat eaters have claws, sharp teeth, sweat through the mouth, have a short intenstine which is two thirds the length of their bodies (humans are 30 ft. long), their jaws move up and down only, and the stomach can digest hair. Humans lack all of these natural meat eating habits and attributes. Furthermore, the human intestinal tract causes meat to stay in the body for up to 3 days. This causes toxins to be aborbed in the body creating diseases, while the natural meat eater's raw-flesh diet allows meat to leave quickly (1 day or less). In addition, flesh eating increases the workload of the kidneys and the liver. Consequently, this decreases man's ability to biochemically protect himself. Aside from this, animals secrete adrenaline into their bodies as a reaction to the fear caused by the slaughterhouse environment. This adrenaline poisons the flesh and creates toxins. Lastly, many types of diseases are transmitted by dead animals. The disease of Salmonella poisoning causes symptoms which resemble "colds," "flus," and "viruses." These symptoms are misdiagnosed and treated with "cold" medicines. There are of course many other health risks associated with eating meat, but just considering the information that we have discussed thus far, I would say that people who adhere to limited or meat-abstaining diets are indeed much healthier, for a myriad of reasons, than those who do not. They are also a lot less susceptible to premature death compared to non-meat eaters.

quote:
There are some nutrients that are hard to come by in vegan diets. Particularly if they do not consume diary.


It is mistake to assume that eating meat and dairy will provide you with all of the nutrients that you will need. Even meat and dairy consumers suffer from vitamin deficiency. This is why nutritionists recommend that both vegans and meat-eaters integrate supplements into their diets. Vitamins are given the name of vitamins because they are considered "vital to life." Vitamins both energize and minerally stablize the body. For these reasons, it is important to take vitamins, regardless of your dietary status. Dairy products are especially unsafe. Icecream and cheese in particular are totally unsafe. Icecream is made from cheese by-products, butter, butter oil, evaporated milk, condensed milik, all types of buttermilk, all types of skim milk, milk treated with sodium hydroxide and disodium phosphate, plastic cream, dried cream, cheap poisonous thinners, propylene (paint remover, antifreeze), imitation flavors (used as flea killers, embalming fluid, leather tanners), industral flavor chemicals (have caution and innocuous poison labels on them), polyoxyethylenes (cancerous), sodium a carboxymethyl cellulose (cancer inciter), gelatin (increases germ growth), antioxidants, buffers, neutralizers, stabilizers, and other dangerous chemicals which have been approved by the FDA. The chemical content of icecream and cheese does not have to be listed on the label as it has been exempted by the FDA.

quote:
Drinking in moderation is shown to improve heart health and lipid profiles, so being a non-drinker isn't inherently better either.


There are other, less risker, ways to improve the heart's condition if that's a person's goal. Drinking alcohol, a beverage that has also been linked to a wide range of illnesses, such as the increased risk of mouth, pharyngeal and oesophageal cancers (this risk being greatly increased if combined with smoking), is not one of the ways that I would choose to do this, especially when there much more healthier, less dangerous ways to achieve the same goal.

quote:
How do you determine someone is "lost" at first sight? It takes at least one conversation, maybe more to determine compatability. What does distinguished mean to you?


Now is probably a good time to mention that many of these brothers that I know, as associates, are veteran members of the United Nation of Islam (U.N.O.I). They live by strict dietary rules (only foods that are as close to their natural state are consumed), rigid standards of behavior, and rarely do they become involved in a relationship unless there is a prospect for marriage, having understood that recreational relationships are a detriment to the Black community. And so, the odds of them being attracted to the average woman in the mainstream community are nil.

Although I do not identify with some of their fundamentalist religious beliefs (e.g., women having to wear their hair covered, the men being permitted to have more than one wife), these men are what I would consider "distinguished" men. That is, they are conscious about how they live.
Rowe.... Rowe.... Rowe.... Rowe.....

My Sista......

We share soooo much.....

I knew there was something about you I liked...

Couldn't put my finger on it...

Until now....

Just wanted to let you know I think you're right on point....

By the way....

Love your avatar....

Is that a Faith Ringold portrait?



UNOI? Wink You have a PM coming..... Big Grin



Peace,
Virtue

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