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No Melesi,

A good amount of Christian honest would be nice.
You don't know... So just say it and be done. Is that too hard for you?

What is this pride you have for not admitting that you don't know?

Like you said, there is a "hint" and that's pretty much it. So, that's your answer and the extent of the consideration you want to give to this "academic" subject. And yes, when someone doesn't agree with you it's because they are not listening....

Surrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeee, Melesi. Sure...

"It doesn't matter"... I'll have to add that to the long list of Christian Cop-Outs! right after your thoughts are not GOD's thoughts...
When did you change this post?
quote:
It's real, but not true. Therefore it's not enough for salvation.

Could you explain the distinction?
What makes REAL different or less than TRUE?
quote:
Have you read Romans 7?

Thanks for the reference. I'll take a look... any particular passage?
quote:
There is no salvation apart from Jesus since he came to earth.

I'm assuming the Romans chapter stipulates that but Romans 12 is where the Measure Of Faith axiom is found. Is that now only applicable to "Every Man" within the Christian CHURCH and after Jesus GOD no longer judges others "according to their knowledge" or is all those references now to apply to Christians alone?

Again, a distinct between REAL and TRUE will be helpful... and Biblical references for all your answer would be very much appreciated.
quote:
Have you read Romans 7? There's the account of a man who tried to find and live for God without knowing Jesus and allowing him to lead his life. The author had to allow Jesus to lead him in all things, then he was able to live for God in salvation.

upset upset upset
Melesi,

I'm upset with you! Mad
I read ROMANS 7 and all that is there is PAUL pontificating about SIN and the LAW to which he calls the LAW "HOLY" but the flesh carnal - aka inherently sinful (I guess)...

That's it!

I was skeptical at first and thought I would read it later but went ahead and read it and found no parable, no story, no lesson save Paul speaking of himself in basically philosophical terms. I knew better THAN TO EXPECT HONEST from you or even a parable in Paul's writing...
quote:
Well, since once again you cannot stay on the subject but must post lies about me, tikela molamu.

I hope tikela molamu are nice Christian words...

I quoted that statement to say that I don't have to "POST LIES" about you... YOU WILL POST LIES YOURSELF and as I recall you did before when we had the conversation of whether JESUS Would Approve Of Christianity (or whatever the title was)...

You LIE a lot when it comes to actually citing scripture to support your position. So, as not to ruin that tradition, YOU HAVE LIED AGAIN about ROMANS 7; it contains no such story as YOU purported.

This is very bad Melesi. Every time it comes time for you to cite scriptures in YOUR BOOK about YOUR FAITH you fall short... But I guess you'll be forgiven, huh?
sigh. Nmaginate,

Look again. I didn't lie. I didn't call it a "story." I said--and I quote--"Have you read Romans 7? There's the account of a man who tried to find and live for God without knowing Jesus and allowing him to lead his life."

Do you see the word "story" there? Anb "account" it is, for Paul is telling you what it was like to try to live God's life his way. You are assuming once again about what you read. You don't read what is, only what you want.

Paul IS the "man" who is telling you what it was like when he tried to live for God in his own strength and without God's help. That's what Romans 7 is about. Then he goes on in Romans 8 to show the difference between his experience in that life and his life when he finally gave himself to God to be led by his Holy Spirit.

I didn't lie about it. You just don't understand because you expect a certain answer. When you don't get that answer it's others fault. You even accuse others of lying when they are not doing so.

Oh, yes, "tikela molamu" is a Lingala expression. It's a way of saying good-bye. Literally it means "Go well."
As always... LYING as you must.

I would think an honest Christian would not hairsplit words like ACCOUNT and STORY... Same difference, Melesi.

If it was PAUL, why didn't you say that forthrightly. The whole context was one of someone who NEVER knew JESUS and NEVER did.
No worry... I've come to expect less than honesty from you.

I just went back and re-read and you did say the "author" without naming names which would have been sooooooooooo much easier.

NEVERTHELESS! Paul doesn't meet the description nor answer the question I asked you. To try to act like his "account" answers it either proves that YOU AREN'T LISTENING or YOU ARE INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO BE DECEPTIVE.

WHY THE EVASION?

If you don't know and the BIBLE doesn't conclusive say, then ADMIT IT!
(I guess you have but you keep trying to act like it does or that the answer "doesn't matter"... I guess that evidence of your Christian BIAS, huh?)

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 22, 2003 at 05:40 PM.]
YOU ARE A LIAR... Melesi

That's just it. A semantical liar. "I didn't say story" Well what the hell is an "account" in this case but Paul telling the story about his life.

AGAIN, Paul does not represent in anyway the question I'm asking. I'm not ignorant of who Paul is. Why didn't you just say Paul instead of the author or an "account" of "a man"?

You knew his "account" didn't meet the criteria. Paul experience and faith in whatever he believed before Christ is but ONE MAN'S experience, one man's interpretation.

ARE THOSE WHO HAVE NEVER HEARD...
That's the main focus of my question.

YOU JUST STRUCK OUT with your referencing Paul's "account"... Better luck next time!
You have TWO more strikes! Then you're out!
I am no less upset with you and your tactics - Semantics, deception, evasion, etc.

To liken Paul to "THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW" and "THOSE WHO NEVER KNEW" yet were/are faithful to GOD is a desperate attempt to save face... or perhaps you can tell me what you intended to show and how that relates to the CONTEXT here.

Beyond the fact that Paul came to know Jesus, hence disqualifying him as an example within the CONTEXT of this post - i.e. my question to you - PAUL, according to the scriptures had a REMARKABLE and SUPERNATURAL experience that it would not be a stretch to that most of the people we are considering have not or did not have. Taking the Biblical account and Paul's contribution to Christianity, Paul had a special mission that GOD called him for.

In other words, his life is not indicative of the average non-Christian. And that goes for his life before his conversion as well.

Melesi,
If I was as egotistical as you apparently are, then I would tell you that I probably forgot more about the Bible and Christianity than you apparently know. I had a very good Biblical upbringing and background in a Baptist Church.

DON'T INSULT MY INTELLIGENCE with an "account" of a "man"... I am very well aware of Paul's experience. You show me where or explain to me how/why every person that matches the description of "THOSE WHO NEVER KNEW AND WILL NEVER KNOW" will have a BLINDING, close-encounter experience with JESUS then I can see the relevance of Paul's "account".

Paul's Conversion??
quote:
Well people that don't know $#** about $#** about Christianity (whether they practise or not) really can't discuss the subject of Christianity with any intelligence.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
That sounds like a good principle why don't you try that in relation to ISLAM and other religions because you sound woefully IGNORANCE and we know you LACK INTELLIGENCE.

LOL. whatever man. It doesn't matter what I do or don't know about Islam (but I do know a great deal). ALL that REALLY matters is it is a religion of a false god. Christ is not considered God, nor is he considered to have paid for sins on the Cross. That's allllllllll I REALLLLLLLLLLLLLLY need to know to be certain it's a false religion.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
And you are WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG !!!

Can you prove it? Wink Razz

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Why do these CHRISTIANS not view ISLAM the way you do?

Probably because they are ecumenists and are too scared of not getting along. To them getting along and not 'offending' people with the truth is more important.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
http://www.explorefaith.org/other_religions.html[QUOTE] "We can learn more about God..."

"The wisdom and tradition of other religions helps expand the arena in which God lives and moves and has being."

BULL$#**.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
"I can only speak for myself, but as a committed Christian I have been helped by studying other religions, particularly in the area of prayer."

Which was completely pointless...

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
"Yes, Christians can and often do learn from the experiences and faith of non-Christians."

well if they "learned" that all religions lead to heaven, they didn't learn, they got brainwashed.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
"At this point along my journey I think about Christ's words, "seek and ye shall find."
{_To that point I say you have looked for the faults in other religions and that's exactly what you've found. I don't know how that's a Christian principle - looking for the "bad" in people/religions. _}


I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE "FAULTS" in OTHER RELIGIONS!!!!! IT DOES NOT MATTER!!!! ALL OF THE OTHER RELIGIONS HAVE FALSE GODS (whether spirit entities or some impersonal force, or nothing at all)!!!! It doesn't matter how nice they are or how bad they are, not one bit! If they do not believe in Jesus as God and Savior that's what renders them false teachings.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
http://www.explorefaith.org/views.html


LOL these guys are so liberal it's not funny

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
_What is the fate of a believer of another faith that will never hear of Christ/Christianity?_

It's not a hard question.

So what happened to the "dead" people you are not concerned with who happened to believe differently and never heard...?

It's not a hard question...
HEAVEN or HELL for them?

_*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*_
_ S A N K O F A : Return & Fetch It! _
Learn from and build on the past. It is not taboo to return and fetch
what you have forgotten. You can always correct what went wrong.
In the past, you find the future and understand the present.



People who did not believe in the True God (prior to Christ) do not get saved. Same with people who don't believe in Jesus. Simple answer, just apply it.

However, "He who knew not his master's will, and does it not, will be beaten with few blows. But he who knew his master's will, and did it not, will be beaten with many blows."

This seems to indicate that "ignorance of the law" only goes so far--they too must be punished for their sins but they will NOT be punished as much as those who KNEW and went their own way anyhow.

As we all know, "Ignorance of the Law" IS NOT an excuse. People INSTINCTIVELY know what is right and what is wrong--in basic terms anyhow.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Don't mean to offend, but your concept of GOD seems to have a lot of COLLATERAL DAMAGE for those who down through the centuries never heard or were not included in the Biblical Covenants.

Now here is where you totally don't understand the concept of why we need a savior. IT's NOT "COLLATERAL DAMAGE"! Only God knows what was in the hearts of people back in the day, even today. He CHOSE PEOPLE WHO HE KNEW WOULD ACCEPT HIM at the time. Some people at the time were apparently VERY wicked. If a person is 'on their own' they are condemned by their own sins--which is what would happen to EVERY person if Jesus had not come. NOBODY would be saved if Jesus had not come and died on the Cross to redeem us, you understand?! Only God knows why some people never heard. HE WAS IN CONTROL HOWEVER AND WE MUST TRUST HIS JUDGMENT.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
The Bible occurred and its initial scope was in a very small part of the world.


Actually it wasn't that small. Egypt heard all about it, there were Ethiopians that converted to Judaism, people came from all over to see Israel in the time of the Kings. (Especially Solomon). The neighboring Canaanite peoples knew about the God of Israel, as he was known back then FULL WELL when the Israelites beat their @$$ in battle.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Such a great concept of a God that saves all but has to wait until his Christian army marches and talks to ever living soul. The dead ones.... THEY CAN JUST GO TO HELL!


Now you are just questioning God, when you have no realistic standing in doing so.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
It's not your fault they did hear huh?


The point of that was what exactly?

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
You simply will not allow the Christians' God his own abilities and personality. You must argue from the logical fallacy of the excluded middle: "either your God is like mine or he's garbage."

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I am tired...

But that's bogus. That sounds more like SHEBAKOBY's THEORY not mine.

MY theory? LOL. Actually it's God's theory for he says "YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME! I THE LORD THY GOD AM A JEALOUS GOD. I WILL NOT GIVE MY PRAISE TO GRAVEN IMAGES, NOR MY GLORY TO ANOTHER"

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I was arguing from the standpoint that Christians should see GOD no matter how he is perceived in different ways in different religions as of equal value to "your" GOD according to their beliefs.


But if that were true then the FIRST COMMANDMENT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Neither did GOD punishing the Israelites for their slide into Idolatry--the Golden Calf, for instance. It was called "The Lord" and they pretended it was the True God. Needless to say God was NOT HAPPY with that.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Last I heard, God has not asked you what he should be like, and you'd be better off studying the Bible to find out for yourself rather than twisting others' words in your hate and despising.

I don't understand... ???

Could you tell me why other Christians would voice similar concerns and ask and/or address similar questions that I have.

Are they "self-hating", "despising" Christians?

Melesi, honestly you must think that I'm ignorant of how different Christian denominations don't even have the same "concept of GOD" and feel like if you don't subscribe to a certain doctrine they deem Biblical and obligatory that you are not being Christ like and/or saved.

I think the references I gave should help you see that this conversation is not unlike any other Christian-to-Christian debate across denominational lines where apparently difference of opinions won't be dropped either.

My concept is of a GOD that has revealed himself to ALL people at ALL times without exception regardless of the messenger... (Last time I checked the geography of the Bible hardly covered the whole world then - OLD or NEW TESTAMENT - and I'm sure there are some far corners of the world it still has not reached today.)

I can't see GOD being just and loving without making that allowance. That to me is an EXPANDED inclusive view that includes a space for people of all faiths that sincerely believe in the CREATOR however they see the CREATOR.

It doesn't seem right for those who lived outside of the BIBLICAL world to not have salvation simply because of their geography. SALVATION IS and WAS FOR EVERYONE... maybe that's assuming too much. But I believe all those before and after JESUS' time were saved.

_HOW CAN THEY BE SAVED UNLESS THEY HAVE A SAVIOR?_
I think GOD has sent salvation to ALL people at ALL times.... but that's my opinion.

Of course, you're free to disagree.

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 19, 2003 at 04:42 PM.]



'nate you are questioning God which you honestly have no right to do.

God did not send a dozen or a million little 'saviors' he sent ONE Savior, cuz that's ALL that was needed. That's what was promised!
Sincere belief in an idol is still sincere belief in an idol, and I can believe sincerely that I am headed to Victoria but if I'm going the WRONG direction I won't get to Victoria--I may wind up in Port Hardy!

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
_We can't really say what will happen to those who have never heard of Christ. The hints that seem to speak to this issue in the Bible say that God will deal with them according to the knowledge they do have. But that's up to God._

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
That doesn't sound like a firm and definitive answer to SALVATION before JESUS for those who do not fall under the OLD TESTAMENT COVENANT and for those who do not get, by virtue of not hearing, the NEW TESTAMENT COVENANT "written in their hearts".

Well if you are talking about Old Testament days, it DEPENDS on whether they knew the True God or not. The Story of Job, for instance, does not appear to take place in Israel, but in a land called "Nod" (and not identified by archaelogists as yet because the later naming of the region is not included in the text). So what I'm saying is WE REALLY CANNOT SAY WHO DID OR DID NOT KNOW THE TRUE GOD. You are trying to minimize the amount of people that knew Jehovah/Yahweh to make Him look bad.

If they did not know the True God, they are not going to heaven. If they did and believed, they will.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
_"We can't really say..." _

See above

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Well, that says that there is salvation to be found outside of JESUS, I would think... unless you are one of those Jesus' personhood was there at the beginning types...

What?! JESUS WAS AROUND BACK THEN! He just wasn't in his incarnate form. Salvation was found through THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING and BELIEF AND HOPE IN THAT COMING.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I would also think that there would be more than just "HINTS" in the Bible on this the single most important issue to the Christian faith. All of it depends on its "unique" notion of salvation.

Actually what happened to people long dead is not our concern.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Melesi...
I have less of an issue with you. The contrast of your beliefs with SHEBAKOBY's makes you position much more "liberal"...

Nevertheless, I don't see the "salvation" of countless souls as something that only a casual "hint" can adequately address when the entire NEW TESTAMENT is about salvation.

My question is:
HOW CAN THAT BE JUST A MERE "HINT" when it is a simple logical question (that even a child could ponder) that would require more than just a glancing treatment?
quote:
God is "limited" to Christians? No, of course not. I hope that I have made that plain already. _But Jesus is, and salvation is found in him._

Not attacking your belief or saying that "salvation" can't be found "through" Jesus, but is that not inconsistent with the _Measure Of Faith, According To Their Knowledge doctrine_ for those who never knew or will "know" JESUS?

Something more than just a "hint" would have to satisfy me if I was confronted with the question of absolute picture of my salvation as a result of someone merely mentioning that some man named Jesus was the way to salvation...

That would especially be so when I have a firm belief in a particular non-Christian religion... My first question would be: "Well, since I understand and relate to GOD very well as-is, is there SALVATION for me without confessing Christ who I do not know very well?

As simple "hint" that you would suggest for me in that situation would not make that aspect of Christianity one that would lure me... I would reasonable think, "Well, even if I come to know and "trust Jesus"... what about my parents,etc. who are good, GOD fearing people?"

Will they be SAVED?

A whispered "we can't say" and an indefinite "only GOD knows" would discourage me for finding Christianity attractive because naturally those questions would have to be answered completely for me to feel secure in the Christian faith if it was, in fact, foreign to me.

God will deal with me according to my knowledge...
.... vs .... SALVATION found "through" JESUS Christ

Don't hardly sound like equivalents... so in questioning... I would also have to ask if GOD has his favorites or something where he makes bigger promises of a LOUDLY proclaimed SALVATION as contrasted to the afterthought of "according to my knowledge"...


Again, you are not listening man. THE FIRST COMMANDMENT FORBIDS "other gods"! WHY would God be SO ADAMANT AS TO MAKE THAT THE FIRST COMMANDMENT, IF IT DIDN'T MATTER A HILL OF BEANS WHAT A PERSON BELIEVED IN?

The Canaanites sincerely believed in their idols, Baal and Asherah/Astarte! They were punished by God for their idolatry! How can you reconcile this with your belief that ANY religious belief can "save" a person?!

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
Get it right SHEBA!

I'm not "questioning GOD" I'm questioning you Christians here who presume to know GOD but can't answer simple questions. At no time was this a discussion about "the wicked"...

As far as SAVIOUR(s) are concerned:
quote:
  • Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

  • I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

  • I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
    Isaiah 43: 10-12

  • Seems like you have a lot of scriptures to RECONCILE.

    SHEBA, give it up! You don't know what you're talking about and still have not answered the question. Giving IGNORANT and IRRELEVANT information to the question I asked.

    It's not that hard.
  • Did GOD or did GOD not give "EVERY MAN the Measure Of Faith?"
  • Was NOT the "Biblical World" only a SMALL portion of the known world (historically) even then to which there is no information even in the BIBLE as to how GOD viewed and was viewed by people continents and miles away?

    To the contrary SHEBA, I believe as does MELESI that GOD is JUST... I also believe that GOD IS SOVEREIGN and NEEDS NO PARTNERS OR ASSOCIATES and IS GOD ALL BY HIMSELF!
  • Don't insult my intelligence with REGURGITATION!
    quote:
    What?! JESUS WAS AROUND BACK THEN! He just wasn't in his incarnate form. Salvation was found through THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING and BELIEF AND HOPE IN THAT COMING.

    Did Abraham "prophesy" of Jesus' coming? What about Noah?

    Why no mention of Jesus or the need for a savior then? WHAT DID GOD SAY in Isaiah?
    "I need some help... So I'll send Jesus..."

    Surely GOD IS GOD!
    I guess Jesus was hiding out during the Old Testament then?

    Please!!!!!!!!!!!! Try that backhanded, backtracking logic on somebody that's dumb and gullible and DISRESPECTS THE POWER OF GOD.
      I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
    Where was the mention of Jesus there?
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Get it right SHEBA!

    I'm not "questioning GOD" I'm questioning you Christians here who presume to know GOD but can't answer simple questions. At no time was this a discussion about "the wicked"...

    OH yes it is. It depends on your definition of "wickedness" then, I guess...and to God, Idolatry is wickedness.


    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    As far as SAVIOUR(s) are concerned:
    quote:
    + Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    + _I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour._

    + I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
    Isaiah 43: 10-12

    Seems like you have a lot of scriptures to RECONCILE.[/QUOTE]
    Huh? Reconcile about what? WTF are you talking about?

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    SHEBA, give it up! You don't know what you're talking about and still have not answered the question. Giving IGNORANT and IRRELEVANT information to the question I asked.

    It's not that hard.
    + Did GOD or did GOD not give "EVERY MAN the Measure Of Faith?"

    God gave each Man the potential to believe in him.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    + Was NOT the "Biblical World" only a SMALL portion of the known world (historically) even then to which there is no information even in the BIBLE as to how GOD viewed and was viewed by people continents and miles away?

    That has nothing to do with anything. No it was not that small. People had trade with Asia, Africa, and all the surrounding area. That's not a "small" area!

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    To the contrary SHEBA, I believe as does MELESI that GOD is JUST... I also believe that GOD IS SOVEREIGN and NEEDS NO PARTNERS OR ASSOCIATES and IS GOD ALL BY HIMSELF!


    What the hell does that mean?

    "You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Don't insult my intelligence with REGURGITATION!

    LOL what regurgitation are you going on about?
    quote:
    What?! JESUS WAS AROUND BACK THEN! He just wasn't in his incarnate form. Salvation was found through THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING and BELIEF AND HOPE IN THAT COMING.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Did Abraham "prophesy" of Jesus' coming?


    Jesus was the one that came down with the two other angels to talk to Abraham about Sodom and Gomorrah! Abraham didn't need to prophesy, because God said it DIRECTLY to him! GOD PROMISED ABRAHAM that Jesus would come thru HIS "seed"!
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    What about Noah?

    Noah had his hands full with the Ark and warning people of the coming judgment of the Flood. After the Flood, everybody already knew about the Promise.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Why no mention of Jesus or the need for a savior then?
    The hell are you talking about? Boy you really don't know much about this do you.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    WHAT DID GOD SAY in Isaiah?
    "I need some help... So I'll send Jesus..."

    Did you flunk Sunday School?!

    Isa.7
    [14] Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

    Isa.53
    [1] Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
    [2] For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
    [3] He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
    [4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
    [5] But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
    [6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
    [7] He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
    [8] He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
    [9] And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
    [10] Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
    [11] He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
    [12] Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Surely GOD IS GOD!
    I guess Jesus was hiding out during the Old Testament then?

    Surely Jesus is God and NO HE WAS NOT HIDING OUT.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Please!!!!!!!!!!!! Try that backhanded, backtracking logic on somebody that's dumb and gullible and DISRESPECTS THE POWER OF GOD._I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour. _Where was the mention of Jesus there?

    The Trinity man, the Trinity. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Ghost is God. They are ALL THREE IN ONE. Do I have to go anti-Jehovah's-Witness-argument on your @$$?

    "You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
    Sheba don't REGURGITATE the TRINITY lingo...

    Explain it...
    I've heard it all before and was taught it just like you.

    If GOD [The FATHER] is talking to ISAIAH and the Children of Israel and says:
    • Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    • I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
    How do you figure JESUS to be included in that? Where is the explicit statement that says JESUS is Saviour and GOD the FATHER, by proxy, is not... EXPLAIN IT.

    Saying the THREE ARE ONE (while it sounds PAGAN) does not explain or addree that scripture.

    Why did NOT GOD say unequivocally in that verse:
    I AM SAVIOUR in the form of the FATHER AND THE SON (to come)?

    Would that NOT clear up any confusion whether it be by Jews, Jehovah Witness or whomever?

    That scripture belies what is the Christian emphasis that JESUS is SAVIOUR. That scripture says GOD THE FATHER *ALONE* is saviour. Again, saying the Three Are ONE is not an adequate explanation for the less than straightforward language.

    Speaking of that, WHY isn't JESUS mentioned by his exact Christian name in all the Old Testament accounts where you say he was present? Would that not save the guess work?

    Basically, it seems that you are putting an interpretative/doctrinal spin on it - aka an opinion/theory - and calling it an undeniable truth. Well, in my book TRUTH is straightforward and explicit no need for interpretation and throwing a name (Jesus) that was not present in the original.

    What did not GOD know that the name JESUS was going to be used in the New Testament? Surely the name JESUS could have been firmly printed in the Old Testament by an ALL-Knowing GOD?

    BTW, I'm not questioning GOD, I'm questioning your specious logic.
    "Noah had his hands full..."
    Yeah... statements of convenience like that just goes to show it's all based on an inconclusive text and your interpretations.
    On the other hand, we all seem to do something of what we accuse others of doing.

    If sheba relies on an argument of convenience, you rely on an argument of convenience:

    "Why did not God say unequivocally...would not that clear up any confusion...?"

    You seem to assume that God's job is to clear up "any" confusion instead of growing us to the point where we can begin to understand enough to know him to obey him.
    God's "job" as you put it is not to leave us as we are but to lead us to wher we should be. If God is more than one yet not a plurality, how is he to express that to his children? Perhaps he really did do it the best way (which he should know).

    I realize that you will not find this convincing. You demand that God act in a certain way, a way in which he did not and does not act. He does not act for your convenience. Therefore his ways will not convince you. Pity.

    If Sheba relies on an argument of convenience, you seem to rely on an argument of mathematics and anachronism.

    If God is one, you seem to say, then he cannot be more than one. If Jesus is savior, then why wouldn't God have said so from the beginning?

    You can ask that sort of question forever: if the Ten Commandments are so important, why didn't God give them to Adam and Eve? If Moses was so important, why wasn't he the next son of Adam and Eve? If God is so just, why was Israel in Egypt for four hundred years? If the belief that you carry is so right, why didn't God make that belief structure plain to Adam and Eve?

    Your questions assume a character for God that he does not have. He is, as he told Moses, who he is. It's our "job" to understand that, not to demand that he fit our limited understanding.

    "Echaad" (as in "God is one") means unity as well as oneness (which also means unity). When a certain someone other than God appears on the early Biblical scene, he is worshipped as God, he even accepts sacrifices as God, and it is right to do that. Yet God is invisible and no one has seen him. So how did God appear to Abraham? The second Person of the Trinity.

    Why isn't he called Jesus? Because he is preincarnate and so far unnamed by his human name because he hasn't received that name yet. The name will have meaning later, but so far (in Genesis) God hasn't revealed his name even to his own people, so it would not have the meaning that it will have later. He is still known only as part of God, for that is how he is worshipped.
    yada yada... MELESI!!

    I'm sure there's a Christian scripture/saying:
    "GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION"

    No growing should be necessary for what should be plain. I can't help if your doctrine doesn't teach you how to think with the MIND GOD GAVE YOU!

    You, too, cannot stand as someone who doesn't offer arguments of convenience. That's your M.O.!

    Everything I know and say is because of the understanding GOD gave me. Who are you to say that GOD didn't?

    Basically, my friend, GOD has given you the understanding you have according to your Measure of Faith and HE has done likewise with me. Unless you are GOD "incarnate" (and writing on a keyboard) you can't say what GOD has had me to understand!

    MELESI...
    Go back... read your BIBLE and come back and talk to me when you "understand" that JESUS was a JEW and those that follow him must be, as the term suggest, CHRIST-LIKE - aka Jew like, since Jesus was a practicing Jew! (oh but we've been there before)

    And you can stop with the WEAK ARGUMENTS - aka FALLACY OF WEAK ANALOGY!!!

    What makes you think the TEN COMMANDMENTS were applicable to Adam & Eve and that the appropriate principles (No Other GOD before me!) where not engrained/introduced?

    And the only LIMITED understanding of GOD, IMO, is yours!
    quote:
    Why isn't he called Jesus? Because he is preincarnate and so far unnamed by his human name because he hasn't received that name yet. The name will have meaning later, but so far (in Genesis) God hasn't revealed his name even to his own people, so it would not have the meaning that it will have later. He is still known only as part of God, for that is how he is worshipped.

    Where is all that laid out in scripture?
    I'm not interested in your backtracking, disputable doctrinal interpretations.
    quote:
    Yet God is invisible and no one has seen him.
    Yet JESUS is "god" (at least from Sheba's take) but was visible and people have seen him?

    Yada... yada... with that meelie mouth stuff.

    That's fine if that's what you want to believe and that's what constitutes your Measure of Faith but it does not... concerning mine.

    PEACE Melesi!
    It's "mealy mouthed," not "meelie mouth," and the right "too" that you want is spelled that way.

    Your question about "Emmanuel" is what, exactly? Jesus does equal "Emmanuel," but your point is...?

    I noticed that you couldn't correct my statement on your bad analogy. You could only whine about it.

    And again, you do not argue your point about the Ten Commandments and Adam and Eve, only ask a question about it. You have nothing real to say about it, then? I guess your point here isn't "laid out in Scripture," h'm?

    As I said, what you accuse others of doing, you do yourself.

    Which means that you have no argument.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Melesi:

    As I said, what you accuse others of doing, you do yourself.


    Thank you for proving my point.
    quote:
    I have never said, "You don't do it either."

    (from thread about SD and "double standards")

    Well, I guess my "interpretation" of the repeated times you've said the former merely as a tit-for-tat tactic is, of course, off base in your opinion. Roll Eyes
    quote:
    You could only whine about it.

    And I guess your Christian motivation for saying that has nothing to do with me saying you were WHINING? Roll Eyes
    quote:
    Jesus does equal "Emmanuel," but your point is...?

    HIS NAME SHALL BE EMMANUEL. Why then is his name JESUS? Linguistically, I doubt they are the same.

    If my great-great-great-grandparents said my progeny to come of "X" generation NAME SHALL BE "Y", there is no way I can say that "Z" is the equivalent or the fulfillment of the mandate of HIS NAME SHALL BE.

    Show me where the NAME Jesus is the linguistic equivalent in terms of meaning to EMMANUEL...

    I believe the scripture says HIS **NAME** SHALL BE CALLED EMMANUEL. Your evasion, though expected, is not becoming and definitely not based in any logic or truth that can be ascertained.
      "Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel"
    It might be different - and perhaps the error is in translation (perhaps not) - if the passage said "He will be called X" as if to stipulate more of a title or particular attribute - Rose of Sharon, Lilly of the Valley, etc.

    In the Old Testament, JEHOVAH had many names which Christians today even cite yet JEHOVAH is a permanent surname so to speak with whatever variation describing one of particular GOD's attributes which seems in a sense to have parallels with cultures that have Pantheons.
    "¢ Jehovah-jireh
    "¢ Jehovah-nissi
    "¢ Jehovah-shalom

    quote:
    The first name given to the baby is the one we know best - Jesus. The Greek word used here for Jesus is based on the Hebrew yehoshua which means Yahweh saves. Even from the moment that he came as a baby, Jesus' name indicates that God sent him and that he came to earth to save.

    Sorry, but I see a slight difference between GOD [IS] WITH US and GOD SAVES...

    (Looking closer at the translation of the name JESUS there... the meaning suggest that JEHOVAH (Yahweh) SAVES not JESUS (the Son) SAVES - which seems to be more in concert with the Isaiah 43 passage.... hmmmmmm........ )

    So, I have to ask you:
    In what sense are you saying the TWO NAMES are "equal" and WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

    And you are really reachin' if you want to get picky about typo's and misspellings... winkgrin

    Melesi, my good Christian brother...
    That's a little **too** funny for me!Big Grin

    Also, given that I am not a Christian my ideas about GOD does not have to be codified in Christian scriptures, Melesi... Yet you will note that I am more apt to freely submit scriptural support for my views than you ever have been and you are a Christian. You more readily resort to reciting interpretive doctrine rather than actual scripture for things you say are the "gospel" truth.

    Why is so hard for you to understand that?

    It's hypocritical for you as a Christian to say the BIBLE is the authorative Word Of God by which, apparently, is the only scripture that is instructive of who [the true] GOD is... yet you resort to extra-scriptural (aka non-explicit) interpretations.

    Then, in "you do it too" fashion, you feel that I must be beholden to the Bible as "the" authority and not Pick N Choose when I have never stated that I believe in all the Bible, unconditionally.

    Of course, you will have your usual specious spin.... so by all means... spin away!

    [This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 29, 2003 at 04:22 PM.]
    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Sheba don't REGURGITATE the TRINITY lingo...

    Explain it...
    I've heard it all before and was taught it just like you.

    If GOD [The FATHER] is talking to ISAIAH and the Children of Israel and says:+ Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: _before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me._

    + I, even I, am the LORD; and _beside me there is no saviour. _
    How do you figure JESUS to be included in that? Where is the explicit statement that says JESUS is Saviour and GOD the FATHER, by proxy, is not... EXPLAIN IT.

    :P It's lucky for you I been debating Jovies (Jehovah's Witnesses) lately. Don't tell me you're going jovie's witness on me :P

    You can find verses where the same thing is being said (at different times) by more than one member of the Trinity. For instance "I am the Alpha and the Omega" is said:

    Rev 1:
    [8] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Speaker = God the FATHER

    Rev 21:
    [5] And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
    [6] And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Speaker is GOD THE FATHER. (He that Sitteth on the Throne)

    Rev. 22
    [13] I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

    Speaker = CHRIST.

    How can Christ claim he is the Alpha and Omega if he is NOT God?

    Jesus told the Pharisees in John 8:
    "[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
    [57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    [58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM. The people were right ready to STONE him because he was calling himself GOD! As had been done by God the Father in the same way in Exodus "I AM WHO I AM".

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Saying the THREE ARE ONE (while it sounds PAGAN) does not explain or addree that scripture.

    The clues are there if you look for them. For instance CHRIST ACCEPTS WORSHIP. ANGELS DO NOT ACCEPT WORSHIP. ONLY GOD IS ALLOWED TO ACCEPT WORSHIP. Therefore, if Christ is NOT God, HOW can he accept worship? WE are not talking about 3 different "gods" here. This is not polytheism. And people practically ignore the poor Holy Spirit these days...

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Why did NOT GOD say unequivocally in that verse:
    I AM SAVIOUR in the form of the FATHER AND THE SON (to come)?

    They are separate individuals while maintaining the essence of unity. St. Patrick explained it with good success about the Shamrock--3 leaves yet one "clover." (or shamrock plant of the oxalis family-both clovers and shamrocks have the 3-leaf thing going).

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Would that NOT clear up any confusion whether it be by Jews, Jehovah Witness or whomever?

    The problem with the Jews and JW's is they reject the concept of a Triune God because they cannot understand it. There are some things we will NOT understand until the end of the world. That's where faith comes in.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    That scripture belies what is the Christian emphasis that JESUS is SAVIOUR. That scripture says GOD THE FATHER *ALONE* is saviour. Again, saying the Three Are ONE is not an adequate explanation for the less than straightforward language.

    It doesn't belie it, it CONFIRMS the Triune nature of God! I think you'd better learn some F***ING HEBREW before you start going on about what is 'plain language'--because in Hebrew it IS plain language! The Hebrew word often used for the Godhead MEANS PLURAL UNITY!!!

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Speaking of that, WHY isn't JESUS mentioned by his exact Christian name in all the Old Testament accounts where you say he was present? Would that not save the guess work?

    God has many names. What guess work are you talking about?

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    Basically, it seems that you are putting an interpretative/doctrinal spin on it - aka an opinion/theory - and calling it an undeniable truth. Well, in my book TRUTH is straightforward and explicit no need for interpretation and throwing a name (Jesus) that was not present in the original.

    No, it's called figuring $#** out based on the evidence presented. THIS IS NOT AN OPINION. IT IS A WELL-RESEARCHED FACT.

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    What did not GOD know that the name JESUS was going to be used in the New Testament? Surely the name JESUS could have been firmly printed in the Old Testament by an ALL-Knowing GOD?

    Don't be so fuc*ing dense. By avoiding direct naming in advance, God avoided some f***er naming his kid "Jesus" for the express purpose of saying "HEY EVERYBODY IT'S THE MESSIAH!!!"

    quote:
    Originally posted by Nmaginate:
    BTW, I'm not questioning GOD, I'm questioning your specious logic.
    "Noah had his hands full..."
    Yeah... statements of convenience like that just goes to show it's all based on an inconclusive text and your interpretations.


    Actually I'm having a bit more trouble with YOUR specious reasoning and total LACK of logic.

    "You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh

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