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Reposted from the ISSUES Forum.
quote:
Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin, whose promotion and appointment was confirmed by the Senate in June, has said publicly that he sees the war on terrorism as a clash between Judeo-Christian values and Satan, the Los Angeles Times reported Thursday.

Appearing in dress uniform before a religious group in Oregon in June, Boykin said Islamic extremists hate the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christians. ... And the enemy is a guy named Satan."

...Discussing a U.S. Army battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia in 1993, Boykin told one audience, "I knew my god was bigger than his. I knew that my god was a real god and his was an idol."
Rumsfeld defends general.
quote:
"And we ask ourselves this question, ˜Why do they hate us? Why do they hate us so much?'
Ladies and gentlemen, the answer to that is because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian. Did I say Judeo-Christian? Yes. Judeo-Christian.

"That means we've got a commitment to Israel. That mean's it's a commitment we're never going to abandon!"


Top Defense Dept./Pentagon General-Bush Chosen by God to Fight Satan

I heard about this last night on a Talk Radio Show hosted by a Black Conservative sister who was in support of the General's statement and his right to make the statement on a religious basis.

She actually had a Muslim woman call in to dispute the idea that "they" are "idol worshippers" because her Christian perspective was that their "god" was not THE GOD and, of course, Christians alone worship THE GOD.
She usually at least comes up with decent rationales for her positions, though of course you know she gets a lot of White people pumpin' her up (One her promos has a White guy saying, "I think Debra has said it better than anyone else!" or something like that)... She basically told the Muslim lady that only Christians can be right while trying to say that if the General was brought to believe things a certain way that that's what's right to him in his mind so why should he be restricted or be told or be asked to take a position that is not in line with how he was brought up.

Now, when the Muslim lady tried to apply that thinking to her upbringing and outlook then she was told she was right but not right (??) The host told a real country, simple sounding man (he called everything "stupid" and that was about the biggest word he used) that he was wrong or couldn't possibly add to the conversation because he was not Christian (eventhough he made about the most sense...)

Whew!!!

Anyway... My question for people of faith and Christians in general since there are definitely some that believe as the General does (in terms of their GOD being BIGGER/BETTER than the Muslim "god") IF YOU HAVE THAT PHILOSOPHY HOW DO YOU SUPPOSE YOU CAN GET ALONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD (with different religious beliefs) WITH THAT TYPE OF MENTALITY?

How would you feel if someone took that same type of belief and looked at you in that manner?
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Nmaginate,

But people do take that attitude with me. Don't you? You think I'm wrong and have told me so in rather strong terms.

So perhaps an answer to your question would begin with, "Just how have I responded to you?"

We both think the other is wrong, and while we have said so bluntly, I don't recall our saying that the other is beyond redemption or unworthy of being considered human or anything like that. We certainly haven't tried to attack others who hold views like ours.

You do have a bit of a caricature in your description of Christians as those believing that we have a "bigger/better God" than the Muslims do. That's not quite right.

We have a better religion, but our God is the same God. He's understood a bit differently, but that's not quite the same.

By better I mean that it is more compassionate, it holds everyone to the same ethical standard and says that what goes on in the heart has to be considered as important as what goes on on the outside of the person. The Q'ran says that if the Muslim is under pressure and lies while "holding the truth in his heart," that is acceptable. In Christianity, a lie is a lie.

Christianity also teaches that the Muslim (or anybody else) is to be treated with dignity and respect (a command not always adhered to, sadly), while Islam says otherwise. Anyone not a "believer" may be treated differently, ie., worse, than another Muslim.

Islam praises the suicide bomber, calling him (or her, now) a "martyr." Christianity does not.

I would say that there are reasons for believing that Christianity is a better religion than is Islam. But that's not to say that our God is "bigger/better than the Muslim's God. He's the same one, we only believe different things about him, but that's our fault, not his.

By the way, after 9/11, when a few mosques were threatened, many of the people who responded to guard and protect the mosques were Christians. A friend and I spent a couple of nights outside one to make sure no one tried to firebomb it. We were not alone.

And no Christian has ever flown a plane into Riyadh or Damascus because Islam wishes the destruction of Israel.
I'll take more time later...

I don't think you're SATAN or that the beliefs that you have are wrong for you to have... or as an affront to mind. I essentially see and always have seen any principled believer in whatever faith as all the better for it because I see religion or rather true believers in any faith as fundamentally good people and good for society.

As I see it we were having a debate over abstract concepts and I could care less whether you changed your beliefs or not. Nor will I ever think you're going to hell if you don't change them. I would, if anything, rather have you to believe honestly in what you say you do without rationales that Pick and Choose but I see ALL those of faith as having this charge:

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. - Phillipians 2:12
(There's an Islamic principle/scripture much like that too.)

Couple that with the "Measure Of Faith" Doctrine and I definitely don't feel I can judge someone and say what I believe is what's is best or even appropriate for them.

Our previous debates... were just debates and not reflective of an inherent animous. As such I believe that a humanity so diverse in cultures should and perhaps must have a diversity of religion.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Melesi:

See you agree or have beliefs in line with the GENERAL...

I'm not a Muslim but I know a little about Islam from the source not from a biased media or from pulpit pimps like this Gen. who tells you what he thinks about it and presents it as truth.

FUNNY... I can quote you scripture then give my opinion, right or wrong, but you can make unsubstantiated claims.

"OUR RELIGION IS BETTER"
That's a disease you need to cure! What? DOes that make you feel good to say that? Does that make you feel grounded in your faith? Did Jesus say you have the BEST religion?

Did he tell you to brag, boast, or make such a judgement?

YOUR RELIGION is best for you. Otherwise what does that say... Everybody else have defective, lesser, dysfunctional religions? Huh?

Even if it is "true" what's the use in saying it except to say you are therefore "better".. what? By the grace of GOD?

What? Has GOD shined the SUN on you that he has not SHINED on others in the world? IF others don't have your GOD, the real GOD, what do they have?

Seriously, THERE's GOD and there's SATAN.
When it comes to your beliefs right? If you not serving one then you're serving the other right?

I guess GOD is limited to Christians... huh?

Sorry... but I see that as complete and TOTAL ARROGANCE! Which should not be a Christian value. Where did Jesus say that?

I might be able to understand if you were Jewish... then you would at least have the "Chosen People" thing to hang your hat on...

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 17, 2003 at 02:15 PM.]
Hold on, Nmaginate, you're overunning your headlights.

You've gone from dealing with the issue to ascribing motives. That's a personal attack and thereofre not helpful to our discussion. It's also beyond our subject.

I have no idea what the Genral said beyond what you've printed here. I cannot speak to all that he said, and so it's not fair to commit teh genetic fallacy and say, "I see you agree with the General," and then go on to assume that I agree in all ways with him without actually checking that out.

If you think that I make unsubstantiated claims, you are welcome to ask me about them instead of merely complaining about them. Which claim is unsubstantiated?

To say that I think that my religion is better is not a "disease." It's the reason that I have chosen this religion. I expect that a Muslim would say the same thing about his, else why woul dhe be a Muslim? I know that some will be Muslims because they are "born" that way--early environment can be pretty strong--but giving them the benefit of the doubt, until they rpove otherwise I'd like to believe that they believe as they do because they have good reason to do so. This is not a disease. It's the way humans live when the use their heads and respect others.

Do I think that other religions are lesser? Yes. But is that a problem? No. What becomes a problem is when I decide that my religion makes ME better in God's sight than they are. That's not what I believe. I believe that God loves everybody equally. He loves the Muslim as much as he does me. That does not mean that the Muslim does not have to change his mind about his religion if he wants the life that God has promised to those who obey him, but here on earth, God commands me to get along with him and show him the respect due a creation of God.

Must I remind you that you are the one engaging readily in personal attacks and suspicion? Might that be because my religion is better than the one--if any--that you espouse? You speak of respect and getting along, and yet you show no inclination to do so with one with whom you disagree. Do you then have the moral right to accuse Christians of "not getting along"?

Yes, of course it's by the "grace of God." It's certainly not by my doing. That just shows how forgiving God is.

Yes, of course he's shined on others in the world. Most people reject God in the same way and for the same reason they reject virtuous living--they just don't it. But for those who have accepted what they have been able to understand, I think God takes that into consideration. They will not be condemned for what they do not know. We will be condemned for what we do know, which is why the Bible--my better religion, remember--says that we Christians are subject to a stronger and more stringent judgment than others will be.

Satan is a bit of a different subject, a little more complex than you apparently are giving it credit for being. I'm not sure why you brought it up in the way that you did.

God is "limited" to Christians? No, of course not. I hope that I have made that plain already. But Jesus is, and salvation is found in him. He did say that, you know: in the synagogue in Luke 4:18-21; in discussing with his discples in Mt 20:28; in his actions as in Mt. 8:17; in talking to Nicodemus in John 3:14-17; and there area few other texts as well.

It is not "arrogance" to say that one religion is better than another. It all depends on what you mean and why you say it. Just as it's not arrogance to say that one movie is better than another or one artwork is better than another, if the reason that one says it is founded on fact, and as long as glory is not borrowed from the religion and applied to the religionist there's no arrogance involved. You really are touchy on this subject. Why do you insist that others see you as their religious equals? I'm not sure that you do that for them.

But please do note that you're having a harder time getting along with me than I am with you. who's the more arrogant one here?
Like I asked...

What's the need to say "mine is better" because that's what this Gen. did... and the links are there...

Why is there a need to say it?
ANd HOW do you expect someone to perceive that when you say that, flatly?

And you can cut the "fallacy" this and that and telling me what the subject is.

I made this post just like the first one so I am perfectly qualified to say what the parameters are NOT you!

When you say mine is better and others are lesser... what are you really trying to say. If you respect others... why is there a need to compare them as a whole.

I feel like that statement should be qualified as you suggested in essence and what I've already said, "My religion is best for me!"

What's the converse of that or how do you interpret it open-ended as "the best"...

That is a disease... one of competitive comparison where there should be none.

I'll take some time to read but you have to explain the NECESSITY or reason for that stance, again, in relation to the world.

DO YOU SAY TO THE WORLD... "MINES THE BEST" and think its a completely innocent statement.
----------------------------------------
You don't have to feign ignorance either.
SHOW ME IN QURAN all those charges and provide full context.

You do have access to a Quran don't you?

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 17, 2003 at 02:15 PM.]
quote:
. That does not mean that the Muslim does not have to change his mind about his religion if he wants the life that God has promised to those who obey him, but here on earth, God commands me to get along with him and show him the respect due a creation of God.


That's the problem.

Yours is better therefore if someone really wants to know GOD they have to have yours.

That's the problem with it.

And all that personal attack stuff... you know I could careless... again you try to find anyway to say (eventhough you think it subtle) that yours is better.

There's not correlation, Melesi.

I think that anyone who claims to respect humanity yet reserves the privilege to feel "better" than someone else on any basis is not following any religious principle. If you can show me something in the Bible where you are suppose to take that posture... I would be glad to see it.

NOW FOR ALL THE NOTIONS ABOUT ISLAM or another religion that you think makes them "lesser" show me in their Holy Book's scriptures then I judge whether what you've said is substaniated.
Seriously...

How do you distinguish the core of your beliefs from the Gen. with the "No Christians *have ever*" as if Christians are all saints...

And, your RATIONALE is disingenious... because you wouldn't bring up our past conversation and how it apparently made you feel for someone to list count-by-count what was/is wrong with your faith yet you feel comfortable, yet justified in doing it yourself... because you feel you have reason to... NOT BECAUSE OF A GUIDING PRINCIPLE...

You can't respect someone or their beliefs and say that they are not of equal value as yours are to you.

You didn't take kindly to the "slight" (did you?) what GODLY, loving principle gives you the right with impunity?

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 17, 2003 at 06:05 PM.]
Perhaps that's what the General said and meant. I suspect that that is not what I said and meant, which is why I cautioned you about the genetic fallacy. It is a very real fallacy, and if you commit it--and you have--then your conclusion will be wrong, no matter what the parameters are that you have set.

Why say it at all? Because there are people who want to believe what is manifestly false, that all religions are equal in worth. They are not. Some encourage women to be opressed, even stoned for adultery while the men are not. Some encourage "honor killings," always of women, even women who have been raped.

Those that do not I submit are "better" than those that do. That's why it's important to say it. comparisons must be made in a world full of differences, for not all differences will be good.

How do I expect someone to perceive it? If that someone says that he is a reasonable person willing to think together about the issue, then that is how I expect him to resopnd to the statement.

Apparently, not all who say they are reasonable are.

If people one respects believe in a concept that is lesser, then it is morally right to say so. If one wishes the best for others, then one must tell them what the better or even the best is.

But I do not believe that my religion is best merely for me. I believe that it is best for everyone, and there is the entire history of it that says that it is also. It has changed lives on every continent, improved lives of every kind, so it cannot be limited only to me. It is best for everyone.

Jesus even said so. You did look up the quotes I gave you, right?

It is not competition. It is a fact. You may see it as competition, but that does not make it so.

An "innocent statement" may in fact be just that even if you do not see it as such. I recognize that innocence is fine for the person, but it is no guard against misuderstanding and unjustified attack. When I said that my religion is best, I did not say so thinking that that makes you less than me. Your reaction to my statement is your choice, not my provoking.

Yes, I do have a Qur'an, but I do not have a concordance. It will take me some time to find the quote again, and my schedule is full. I will look.
Yours is a busy little keyboard, isn't it?

I do not care if you care about what I say about your personal attacks or not. If you wish to ignore the contradictions in your thinking, then so be it, but they will make your thoughts wrong.

YOu ask why we Christians can't get along with others, and yet you make no effort to do so yourself. That removes from you any moral right to complain about Christians.

But you must not care about logic or moral right.

You have no idea if I think it's subtle or not. In fact I do not. Nothing I say to you is subtle because you wouldn't understand its subtely anyway. But do not try to ascribe motives to someone. YOu will be wrong almost every time. Like you were then.

As I said, I do not say it because it makes me feel better. I am suspicious of emotions becasue they are so wrong so often. I am especially suspicious of my own. This religion does not make me feel better, but it does make me truthful. I have explained to you that I do not see myself as better than others, but you will not understand the difference. Apparently what is plainly said is even too subtle for you.

Since I do not take that stance, I do not have to show you from the Bible where I can do so. It would help if you would listen to what is actually said.

Um, in your 2:24 pm post, your second paragraph was confused. Would you restate it more clearly?
Where is the HUMILITY in that statement?

And what's up with the BLANKET JUDGEMENT?

Everywhere a particular religion is practiced, e.g. Islam, DRACONIAN rituals or laws don't exist.
STONING is in the Bible. DRACONIAN rituals are in the Bible...

So what's you point?

There are 2.5 African American orthodox Muslim in America and they neither believe in stoning nor do they treat women without due respect.

Have you been blinded by the age and country inwhich you live? Christians in America partook of some less than Christian rituals/practices...

You other people's religion to a standard that you don't hold yours to. You miss the point of how culture and other historical forces shape religious practices.

So I ask you this?
WAS ISLAM a better religion during the DARK AGES?
Jews were historically persecuted more harshly by Christians? Does that take away from Christianity and indicate that Christianity is wholly flawed?

*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
S A N K O F A : Return & Fetch It!
Learn from and build on the past. It is not taboo to return and fetch
what you have forgotten. You can always correct what went wrong.
In the past, you find the future and understand the present.
The DIFFERENCE...

Melesi since seem not to recognize from our last conversation and your narrow view of Islam and anything different from your own religion is that you talk down and I talk up.

(BTW... there are on-line version of Qu'ran...)

See... though we didn't agree we where essentially talking about your faith and I was exhalting what I saw as good principles which may in fact have been at odds with what you believe but I was not berating the source - aka the Bible per se and dismissing out of hand the value of it.

It think you do the opposite. You look solely for the negative and have as of you to speak to a principle that you feel should be esteemed that is the possession of anothers faith... that's what you call bridge building...

Your "mine is better" but I'm taught to "love you" is like a human loving a pet. IF you can't respect some's beliefs as equal you can't respect their humanity as such either. They are intimately tied... and I think you know that.

So, since I apparently offended you, I apologize. It wasn't to make you feel insecure in your religion or to say what I believe is "better". Never meant to say that.

Yes, I challenged your beliefs and the logic behind you holding them. THAT's debate. But never did I make a claim about what you believe without citing from the Bible and/or a recognized principle... You disagreed, that's fine. But that debate was more denominational in nature - i.e. well within the Christian proper (perhaps)...

I rarely/sparing referred to ISLAM and when I did it was well into the debate and in no ways representative...

Besides... I don't belong to a particular faith and I would not suggest or expect someone to follow after me or think I'm right... that what the WORD and their own brain, spirit and GOD is for...
quote:
Yes, of course he's shined on others in the world. Most people reject God in the same way and for the same reason they reject virtuous living--they just don't it. But for those who have accepted what they have been able to understand, I think God takes that into consideration. They will not be condemned for what they do not know. We will be condemned for what we do know, which is why the Bible--my better religion, remember--says that we Christians are subject to a stronger and more stringent judgment than others will be

Why do you think that makes your religion better?
And why does GOD judgement based on a believers measure of faith in your human opinion just qualifies as something to be "taken into consideration" - aka less than full credit?

Did GOD say that? Or Did you?
quote:
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. - Romans 12:3

Seems to me this "better" and "not equal" stuff contradicts the "sober" and humble posture you should have.

Yet again, I'M EXHALTING your scripture and not pointing out negatives but positives.

AND there are DEVOUT people of all faiths that believe in what's morally right, etc. and everything you say and yes people's who's lives have been transformed throughout the globe... from other religions...
quote:
Today, the world's 1.2 billion Muslims are as diverse as the 1.5 billion Christians circling the globe, Esposito said. ``There are enormous differences in the way Islam is expressed in the Middle East, Africa or Asia.''


And I don't think size matters... it's the principles (morals) and whatever resonates with a particular individual.

SO, obviously, you don't know the FACTS... The same thing you say about yours can be said about others. You're the one showing little regard for others by suggesting that you and yours is best and apparently they don't have a clue without you or that they can't possibly figure out what's best for them or don't already possess it.

Your assertion of what is fact is fallacious... again There are Muslim here and all throughout the West... You may just have one operate on you or build some technology you enjoy... ARE THEIR CONDITIONS a product of their faith?

C'mon... Melesi, you disappoint me. DOn't know why I thought you wouldn't...

RECONCILE your widespread Christianity=BEST Theory with those numbers on ISLAM and in case you didn't know, it is the fastest growing religion ... Why is that?

(I think I already told you that... but COGNITIVE DISSONANCE and an AVERSION to that FACT makes you say stuff out the side of your mouth.)

BTW, that takes nothing away from Christianity.
quote:
Since I do not take that stance, I do not have to show you from the Bible where I can do so. It would help if you would listen to what is actually said.

The QUESTION *and you know it* WAS WHERE IN THE BIBLE...
Do you get the idea that JESUS wants you to tell others that your religion is the best or better?

Typical, Melesi... always got a cop-out!
You must be ASHAMED of the GOSPEL of CHRIST!
(I don't have to show...)
STUDY to **SHOW**... - 2 Tim 2-15

It would help if YOU would try not to skirt around the issue. RELIGIONS like MOVIES??? What kind of analogy is that? WHY? do you always come up with weak, fallacious examples...
quote:
Why do you insist that others see you as their religious equals?

I personally don't care... I've told you I don't belong to a particular faith. But for you just to ask that question should answer why I've called it a disease.

Think about it? RELIGIOUS EQUALS??
Are you suggesting that GOD doesn't see the righteous the same... based on 'religion'?
quote:
Romans 3
Ro 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Ro 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Ro 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Ro 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Ro 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, **in no wise:** for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Ro 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Ro 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Ro 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.


*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
S A N K O F A : Return & Fetch It!
Learn from and build on the past. It is not taboo to return and fetch
what you have forgotten. You can always correct what went wrong.
In the past, you find the future and understand the present.
Equal respect for all religions is impossible

quote:
...equal respect for all religions is not possible. Different religions make different truth-claims, and one cannot have equal respect for truth as well as falsehood. As pointed out earlier, it is also not desirable to promote equal respect for truth and falsehood. What is both possible and desirable is to have equal respect for all human beings irrespective of their religious beliefs; or equal respect for human beings belonging to different religious groups, including those who do not believe in any religion. In other words, what we need for promoting communal harmony is humanism and not a muddle-headed approach towards religion.


It is my position that just as GOD gives man "FREE WILL" there is also a FREEDOM of RELIGION of CHOICE. And I respect every person's RIGHT to make whatever choice they make and can't possibly judge their sincerity by the one they choose. So that's the sanctity and equality of which I speak.

I am a AFRICAN!
So I believe the only way to serve the CREATOR is by serving his creation, and the only way to respect the CREATOR is by respecting the sanctity of the creation.

Would you dare fathom to say that GOD is not equal to you? If not, then how can you say whether or not what his creation says or does 'religiously' is "equal" to you (your religion) or not?

Personally, I think the whole need to see one as more than the other is a FALSE PREMISE. The idea of saying and taking exception the notion that ALL are "equal" is really a mistaken notion that: "All religions are the same."

Such a fallacy or mistake in terms is the source of the problem.

Now, back to FREEDOM OF CHOICE...
The view that Christianity is "THE BEST" in terms of what's BEST for everyone is tantamount to religious fascism.

Again, why the need to say so. If it is so, wouldn't it speak for itself?

IF you got "the BEST" clothes do you brag like a child to all the other kids that "my clothes are better"? THEN do you taking the "loving" idea that "My clothes, since they are the best, everyone should have them? The same clothes that you do?

How do you think that goes across?
"My brother, out of Christian Love I want to give you a better set of "clothes" because yours are not up to par... mines are better!"

Do you think that respects the dignity and sanctity of the CREATOR by looking down to the creation? I say you are putting GOD down in the process.

I feel the FREEDOM of CHOICE and the spirit of what I'm talking about is in your scripture:

O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. - Psalms 34:8

I see that as an open invitation...
Not one that needs to declare this one or that one is the best... just an open invitation to let each stand on their own merits.

No need to say it, if it is... it will be manifest with or without your help.

Which is what puzzles me? What makes you or another Christian think GOD needs your help in reaching others... especially with respect to the devout and good people of other faiths/beliefs.

Measure of faith...

My faith believes that GOD ALL BY HIMSELF is capable of reaching every man. With that faith, that belief, I can't help but to respect any person regardless of their religion when they say "I know and worship GOD". Who am I to say what GOD has done in their life, through their faith, through their view of HIM?

Questioning that or them, IMO, is questioning GOD and his ability to precede your Christian "witness". Apparently you have NO faith that GOD can do things without your assistance and insistance that it fit "your way".

Measure of faith...

That scripture left no one out. Nor did it preface the pronouncement that that measure of faith only comes after Christianity is accepted. The implication is that is inherent within us and none of us can say who has the greater or "best" measure of faith.
You make discussing with you difficult because of your unrelenting bias. You ask more from emotion than from curiosity. Your questions are polemic, your point is your point of view, and your motive is anger and offense. Such a stance is not amenable to fact and reason.

I suppose That God does not "need" our help in telling others about him, but he has given us that task in the Great Commission at the end of the Gospel of Matthew: "Going into all the world (the literal translation of the participial in the sentence), make disciples (that's the imperative) of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit."

So why do we go? Because Jesus told us to. Why do we tell people that it's best to be Christians? Because Jesus told us to.

You're not listening. To use your image, I have said that if my clothes are better than yours, it's only because I was given them, too. So we're in the same condition; and, dressed in the right clothes, we both should be thankful.
Thanks MELESI,

Now we're at the point where I have to ask you?
ARE YOU GONNA FORCE JESUS ON SOMEONE BECAUSE YOUR RELIGION IS "BETTER"?

Is the "measure of faith" restricted to Christians and Christianity?

Your Bible says EVERY MAN already has it?

It's funny that you call what I say is "BIASED" but I've shown you that CHRISTIANS are aware and voice the same criticism I do. Now, if what I say doesn't apply to you then, it doesn't. But you can't just act like it's only because of my perspective as a non-Christian when I have provided you with both CHRISTIAN and non-Christian views that support what I say.

So, it sounds like you're not willing to deal with the implications of some of your beliefs regardless as to who highlights them.

Also notice, and I say this sincerely, that apparently those Christians don't seem to be any less Christian for recognizing those things.
Reposted from the ISSUES Forum.
quote:
Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin, whose promotion and appointment was confirmed by the Senate in June, has said publicly that he sees the war on terrorism as a clash between Judeo-Christian values and Satan, the Los Angeles Times reported Thursday.

Appearing in dress uniform before a religious group in Oregon in June, Boykin said Islamic extremists hate the United States "because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christians. ... And the enemy is a guy named Satan."

...Discussing a U.S. Army battle against a Muslim warlord in Somalia in 1993, Boykin told one audience, "I knew my god was bigger than his. I knew that my god was a real god and his was an idol."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/10/16/rumsfeld.boykin.ap/index.html
quote:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nmaginate:
"And we ask ourselves this question, ˜Why do they hate us? Why do they hate us so much?'
Ladies and gentlemen, the answer to that is because we're a Christian nation, because our foundation and our roots are Judeo-Christian. Did I say Judeo-Christian? Yes. Judeo-Christian.

OK now you reaaaaaaaaaaally don't understand. It's OK if they hate us! Because they are hating us for a b.s. reason! Christ said the World would hate His followers. And that's exactly what it does. Christ tells people to rejoice when peole persecute them for believing in Him.

Matt. 5
[10] Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
[11] Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
[12] Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

S'no big deal if people are persecuted for their faith in Christ. It certainly can't be avoided (short of rejecting the faith entirely).

quote:

"That means we've got a commitment to Israel. That mean's it's a commitment we're never going to abandon!"


quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display_printable/82949/index.php

I heard about this last night on a Talk Radio Show hosted by a Black Conservative sister who was in support of the General's statement and his right to make the statement on a religious basis.

She actually had a Muslim woman call in to dispute the idea that "they" are "idol worshippers" because her Christian perspective was that their "god" was not THE GOD and, of course, Christians alone worship THE GOD.
She usually at least comes up with decent rationales for her positions, though of course you know she gets a lot of White people pumpin' her up (One her promos has a White guy saying, "I think Debra has said it better than anyone else!" or something like that)... She basically told the Muslim lady that only Christians can be right while trying to say that if the General was brought to believe things a certain way that that's what's right to him in his mind so why should he be restricted or be told or be asked to take a position that is not in line with how he was brought up.

IT IS SO in line with how he was brought up! The truth hurts sometimes, that's why people get mad at Christians.

Yes the "god" of Islam is an idol. It is a rehashing of an old Arabic Moon God named Akbar. (hence "Allah Akbar"). Mohammed was basically making the favorite god of his tribe as the only god. Interestingly enough the Sun god was a sun goddess in ancient tribal Arabic religion.

Jesus himself told us how to discern the proper teachings. If the teachings didn't have him as the Savior and the Son of God and dying on the cross for our sins (Islam has no such concept), it is wroooooooooong.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Now, when the Muslim lady tried to apply that thinking to her upbringing and outlook then she was told she was right but not right (??) The host told a real country, simple sounding man (he called everything "stupid" and that was about the biggest word he used) that he was wrong or couldn't possibly add to the conversation because he was not Christian (eventhough he made about the most sense...)

Well people that don't know $#** about $#** about Christianity (whether they practise or not) really can't discuss the subject of Christianity with any intelligence.

Islam is opposed to Idolatry, as Christianity is--that is why the Muslim woman was "right but not right."

The most appealing things about "other" religions is where it mirrors the beliefs of other different religions. People often take this as proof of correctness among all religions. But it's half-truths that are the most dangerous. Islam is rife with half-truths.

forrrrrrrrrrr example:
Truth: God is One. Half-truth: Denial of the Trinity
Truth: The Ten Commandments
Half-truth: Bowing towards Mecca 5 times a day
Truth: praying to God
Half Truth: not praying through Christ
standalone half truth: works-righteousness salvation INSTEAD of vicarious atonement


quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

Whew!!!

Anyway... My question for people of faith and Christians in general since there are definitely some that believe as the General does (in terms of their GOD being BIGGER/BETTER than the Muslim "god") IF YOU HAVE THAT PHILOSOPHY HOW DO YOU SUPPOSE YOU CAN GET ALONG WITH OTHER PEOPLE IN THE WORLD (with different religious beliefs) WITH THAT TYPE OF MENTALITY?


Well it may seem like a "my daddy could beat up your daddy" type of argument. Christians are not first and foremost to "get along"--particularly if "getting along" means compromising beliefs.

But this "better" idea is really a red herring. The Muslim god doesn't exist as a real personal entity. The True God (of the Christians) is the ONLY God. All others are figments that may have their activities attributed to more-than-cooperative demons. Satan uses false religions to keep people out of heaven. Simple as that.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:

How would you feel if someone took that same type of belief and looked at you in that manner?

Sh** people do that all the time and I don't give a $#**. It's not my problem, it's theirs. It doesn't affect me. It goes back on them.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
The Muslim god doesn't exist as a real personal entity. The True God (of the Christians) is the ONLY God. All others are figments that may have their activities attributed to more-than-cooperative demons. Satan uses false religions to keep people out of heaven. Simple as that.


Answer me this...

What happened to the people during and before Christ time that had not heard of Christ/Christianity? Were ALL of their "false religions" leading them to hell?

What about the PROPHETS of the OLD TESTAMENT?
Certainly they where not "Christians"?
And what about JEWS before, during and after?

Was JESUS not Jewish?

Dunno why I asked but... Go ahead and answer...
quote:
Well people that don't know $#** about $#** about Christianity (whether they practise or not) really can't discuss the subject of Christianity with any intelligence.

That sounds like a good principle why don't you try that in relation to ISLAM and other religions because you sound woefully IGNORANCE and we know you LACK INTELLIGENCE.

And you are WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG !!!

Why do these CHRISTIANS not view ISLAM the way you do?

What can Christians learn from other religions?
quote:
"We can learn more about God..."

"The wisdom and tradition of other religions helps expand the arena in which God lives and moves and has being."

"I can only speak for myself, but as a committed Christian I have been helped by studying other religions, particularly in the area of prayer."

"Yes, Christians can and often do learn from the experiences and faith of non-Christians."

"At this point along my journey I think about Christ's words, "seek and ye shall find."
{To that point I say you have looked for the faults in other religions and that's exactly what you've found. I don't know how that's a Christian principle - looking for the "bad" in people/religions. }


http://www.explorefaith.org/views.html
quote:
The Muslim god doesn't exist as a real personal entity. _The True God (of the Christians) is the ONLY God._ All others are figments that may have their activities attributed to more-than-cooperative demons. Satan uses false religions to keep people out of heaven. Simple as that.



quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Answer me this...

What happened to the people during and before Christ time that had not heard of Christ/Christianity? Were ALL of their "false religions" leading them to hell?
Dunno why I asked but... Go ahead and answer...


Very glad you asked. People before Christ still had the option of following the TRUE God (dealing with Jehovah--aka GOD the Father--DIRECTLY or thru priests). Christ was yet to come, so any who believed THE PROMISE of Christ to come was saved. So no, there was no period of time where NOBODY believed in the true God. There were always believers in the True God (in the time of Noah's Ark it was only EIGHT people! That's how many people that did NOT reject the True God back then.)

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
What about the PROPHETS of the OLD TESTAMENT?
Certainly they where not "Christians"?

The prophets of the Old Testament were sent by Jehovah and were followers of the TRUE God. They often spoke of the Promise of He who was to come (i.e. Isaiah).

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
And what about JEWS before, during and after?

Jews before were saved according to belief in the Promise. Those who rejected the Savior rejected Jehovah as well. In fact there were many occasions where in pre-Christ times the Jews rejected Jehovah and started worshipping idols such as Baal and Asherah. Those "Jews" (Israelites) were not saved.

quote:

Was JESUS not Jewish?

Yes he was Jewish. However the religion of the time that he came had been corrupted by the scribes, Pharisees, and Teachers of the Law. He tore them a new one for their additions "Laws made by Men" and their hypocrisy. Ideally Judaism should never have rejected Christ, however this was foretold "[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.--John 1:10-11

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
And the people in other countries that had not heard of Christ?

You do know that Christ walked the Earth but did not walk on every continent/country when he did? right?

What about those people? When he was living that never even heard of him? What about those that die and practice other faiths that still to this day don't hear about him?

Please point to scripture!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
And the people in other countries that had not heard of Christ?

You do know that Christ walked the Earth but did not walk on every continent/country when he did? right?


There is no mention in the scriptures of this at all.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
What about those people? When he was living that never even heard of him? What about those that die and practice other faiths that still to this day don't hear about him?


When it's people that are already dead, that is not our concern. When it's people that are living now, we'd better hurry up and preach to them.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Please point to scripture!


Matt. 28

[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
[19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
[20] Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

(btw "Amen" means "it shall be so")

WHY would Jesus command this if it didn't matter WHAT people believed? Huh?

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
What is the fate of a believer of another faith that will never hear of Christ/Christianity?

It's not a hard question.

So what happened to the "dead" people you are not concerned with who happened to believe differently and never heard...?

It's not a hard question...
HEAVEN or HELL for them?

*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
S A N K O F A : Return & Fetch It!
Learn from and build on the past. It is not taboo to return and fetch
what you have forgotten. You can always correct what went wrong.
In the past, you find the future and understand the present.
Don't mean to offend, but your concept of GOD seems to have a lot of COLLATERAL DAMAGE for those who down through the centuries never heard or were not included in the Biblical Covenants.

The Bible occurred and its initial scope was in a very small part of the world.

Such a great concept of a God that saves all but has to wait until his Christian army marches and talks to ever living soul. The dead ones.... THEY CAN JUST GO TO HELL!

It's not your fault they did hear huh?
Nmaginate,

You just are not listening. If you had paid attention to what I said, you would konw the answer to your question to me about "forcing" Jesus on others. The fact that you had to ask that quesiton shows that you do not allow others to mean what they say because you do not listen to what they say. IF they don't talk like you you won't listen to what they say.

To answer your question, No.

I've said it before. Try listening instead of assuming.

We can't really say what will happen to those who have never heard of Christ. The hints that seem to speak to this issue in the Bible say that God will deal with them according to the knowledge they do have. But that's up to God.

Our job is to make sure that as many people as possible hear about Jesus. The rest is up to them.

You simply will not allow the Christians' God his own abilities and personality. You must argue from the logical fallacy of the excluded middle: "either your God is like mine or he's garbage." No, that's not the case. God is much more loving and much more holy than you're giving him credit for being. He is both more forgiving and more strict than you want him to be. Last I heard, God has not asked you what he should be like, and you'd be better off studying the Bible to find out for yourself rather than twisting others' words in your hate and despising.
quote:
You simply will not allow the Christians' God his own abilities and personality. You must argue from the logical fallacy of the excluded middle: "either your God is like mine or he's garbage."

I am tired...

But that's bogus. That sounds more like SHEBAKOBY's THEORY not mine.

I was arguing from the standpoint that Christians should see GOD no matter how he is perceived in different ways in different religions as of equal value to "your" GOD according to their beliefs.

Melesi, I don't doubt your faith in GOD and you are no doubt a good Christian brother. You definitely don't seem to be a bad person, but I would be assuming too much I guess. Neither do I doubt that you have faith in the real, true GOD. Where this all breaks down is on our finite human conceptions of an INFINITE GOD.

I don't think your god is garbage. (use smaller case cause I have too much respect to capitalize god in the same sentence as garbage). If anything I challenged your finite, restrictive - i.e. not inclusive of the good possibilities of who GOD is to everyone.. - concept of GOD and tried to use your very scripture as a basis. I even referenced other CHRISTIANs thoughts that were similar to mine. So to say this is about my criticism as a non-Christian is a misnomer - inaccurate.

I could also play your petty game of "WHERE DID I SAY THAT?" concerning that garbage line but I rather not. It is nice to know, though, that you can project the essence of your beliefs or at least Sheba's on me.

I'd been a Christian for the majority of my life. And thank GOD I had a firm base of my belief within my upbringing as a Christian. I respect it tremendously because it was my birthplace, though it is not my home currently....

I apologize for any offense.

I'm done Melesi, PEACE to you!
quote:
Last I heard, God has not asked you what he should be like, and you'd be better off studying the Bible to find out for yourself rather than twisting others' words in your hate and despising.

I don't understand... ???

Could you tell me why other Christians would voice similar concerns and ask and/or address similar questions that I have.

Are they "self-hating", "despising" Christians?

Melesi, honestly you must think that I'm ignorant of how different Christian denominations don't even have the same "concept of GOD" and feel like if you don't subscribe to a certain doctrine they deem Biblical and obligatory that you are not being Christ like and/or saved.

I think the references I gave should help you see that this conversation is not unlike any other Christian-to-Christian debate across denominational lines where apparently difference of opinions won't be dropped either.

My concept is of a GOD that has revealed himself to ALL people at ALL times without exception regardless of the messenger... (Last time I checked the geography of the Bible hardly covered the whole world then - OLD or NEW TESTAMENT - and I'm sure there are some far corners of the world it still has not reached today.)

I can't see GOD being just and loving without making that allowance. That to me is an EXPANDED inclusive view that includes a space for people of all faiths that sincerely believe in the CREATOR however they see the CREATOR.

It doesn't seem right for those who lived outside of the BIBLICAL world to not have salvation simply because of their geography. SALVATION IS and WAS FOR EVERYONE... maybe that's assuming too much. But I believe all those before and after JESUS' time were saved.

HOW CAN THEY BE SAVED UNLESS THEY HAVE A SAVIOR?
I think GOD has sent salvation to ALL people at ALL times.... but that's my opinion.

Of course, you're free to disagree.

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 19, 2003 at 04:42 PM.]
quote:
We can't really say what will happen to those who have never heard of Christ. The hints that seem to speak to this issue in the Bible say that God will deal with them according to the knowledge they do have. But that's up to God.

That doesn't sound like a firm and definitive answer to SALVATION before JESUS for those who do not fall under the OLD TESTAMENT COVENANT and for those who do not get, by virtue of not hearing, the NEW TESTAMENT COVENANT "written in their hearts".

"We can't really say..."

Well, that says that there is salvation to be found outside of JESUS, I would think... unless you are one of those Jesus' personhood was there at the beginning types...

I would also think that there would be more than just "HINTS" in the Bible on this the single most important issue to the Christian faith. All of it depends on its "unique" notion of salvation.

Melesi...
I have less of an issue with you. The contrast of your beliefs with SHEBAKOBY's makes you position much more "liberal"...

Nevertheless, I don't see the "salvation" of countless souls as something that only a casual "hint" can adequately address when the entire NEW TESTAMENT is about salvation.

My question is:
HOW CAN THAT BE JUST A MERE "HINT" when it is a simple logical question (that even a child could ponder) that would require more than just a glancing treatment?
quote:
God is "limited" to Christians? No, of course not. I hope that I have made that plain already. But Jesus is, and salvation is found in him.

Not attacking your belief or saying that "salvation" can't be found "through" Jesus, but is that not inconsistent with the Measure Of Faith, According To Their Knowledge doctrine for those who never knew or will "know" JESUS?

Something more than just a "hint" would have to satisfy me if I was confronted with the question of absolute picture of my salvation as a result of someone merely mentioning that some man named Jesus was the way to salvation...

That would especially be so when I have a firm belief in a particular non-Christian religion... My first question would be: "Well, since I understand and relate to GOD very well as-is, is there SALVATION for me without confessing Christ who I do not know very well?

As simple "hint" that you would suggest for me in that situation would not make that aspect of Christianity one that would lure me... I would reasonable think, "Well, even if I come to know and "trust Jesus"... what about my parents,etc. who are good, GOD fearing people?"

Will they be SAVED?

A whispered "we can't say" and an indefinite "only GOD knows" would discourage me for finding Christianity attractive because naturally those questions would have to be answered completely for me to feel secure in the Christian faith if it was, in fact, foreign to me.

God will deal with me according to my knowledge...
.... vs .... SALVATION found "through" JESUS Christ

Don't hardly sound like equivalents... so in questioning... I would also have to ask if GOD has his favorites or something where he makes bigger promises of a LOUDLY proclaimed SALVATION as contrasted to the afterthought of "according to my knowledge"...
Nmaginate,

The situations are different. Those who have not heard of Jesus have hints about them written in the Bible. I'm sorry if you do not find that "satisfying," but God does not speak in order to satisfy us. He speaks to tell us what is right.

Your case is different from those who have never heard. You have heard. Thus what Jesus says about you is plain enough to satisfy you even if you don't like the answer. I am not particularly happy about what that truth is, but there is no getting around it.

You will be angry and offended by this pronouncement, I have no doubt, but that's part of the reason that you are told what you are told--you proceed by your own understanding and want God (it would seem to me) to be intelligible to our limited minds at all times in all ways. He is not, and it's not his fault. It's ours. So we cannot trust our minds all the time about him. But this much is clear, Nmaginate: the way of salvation is found in Jesus and in no one else. Without him you can be a good person as we count such goodness, but you cannot be saved to life. Eternal life isnot just life in heaven or after we die or that sort of thing. It includes that, but it begins here and now. It is that which you will not have.

I know, I know: how can I expect to get along, and cetera. Well, considering what unbelievers did to Jesus, and given Jesus' assurance that the same sort of things will happen to his disciples, I guess I can only expect it.

But you deserve the truth, and the truth is that there is life in Jesus, and only in him. Don't settle for "good enough." Reach for the best. You'll find it in him.
quote:
Nmaginate: the way of salvation is found in Jesus and in no one else.

Melesi,

I'm not concern or even inquiring for myself or about myself so whatever emotions I have are irrelevant. Now it seems that the "HINT" is being negated because... Salvation in Jesus...

Again, the question about what happen to devout worshipper of GOD say in China or Native Americans before JESUS' time on earth... Those that did not hear while he was here and those yet to hear...

ARE THEY and WILL THEY BE SAVED?

I think you need to go ask your pastor...
This is a very honest, sincere question and the little canned "you want God to be intelligible to our limited minds"... Well, I'm sure an OMNISCIENT GOD who has answered the question of SALVATION for some through JESUS also has an answer for those...

Just because YOU DON'T KNOW and it isn't adequately addressed in the BIBLE doesn't make this an improper question. JUST SAY I DON'T KNOW Melesi and that there's only that "hint"...

That's the usual Christian cop-out, BTW.

And... Ahhhhh! GOD created me and my mind I would think a very simple question like that could be answered.

Let you tell it... all the people in the world during Biblical times that lived outside of the small Biblical world were non-entities... They have no way to SALVATION but by what's contained in the Bible, covenants made to a fraction of the human family.

I think you need to speak to a Biblical scholar...

Melesi,
As much as you want it to be, IT'S NOT ABOUT ME...

Okay, since you insist that despite the "hint" SALVATION is only through JESUS then tell me what the Bible says (surely there's at least a "hint" right) about how those past and present who are covered by the "hint"... how is their salvation tied to Jesus?

How is a man who lived several hundred years before Jesus salvation tied to him? What did that man have to wait on JESUS before he could be saved though he was already covered by the "hint"?

Melesi, just leave it at the Bible only makes a "hint" and say you and apparently it doesn't answer those types of questions.

I don't think I have to tell you that the Bible can't possible have an answer to every question that can be posed.

Unless you want to contradict GOD Himself by continuing to say that those that He covers by the "hint" are not saved because they did not confess JESUS. I guess I missed that part...
I thought I heard that GOD would judge them according to their Measure Of Faith - i.e. according to their knowledge.

Forgive me for thinking but I thought that's what's salvation was for: To withstand judgement or rather be judged worthy of the kingdom.

So actually the "hint" sounds like there are those that will get a pass on the Jesus Salvation plan. It seems to say that there are some that will not "require" that by virtue of their life of faith outside of it.

And unless you can really show the origin of the passage in Romans, the "he wasn't talking about 'saving faith'" is a very weak response. A better position would be to say Paul wasn't addressing "every man" as in every and all human beings but was only addressing those in the CHURCH...

Anyway, from the contextual standpoint Paul does seem to be of course addressing a body of believers - i.e. those who already have faith and salvation through JESUS. So to say that the measure of faith referred to here is not "saving faith" as some Christians may suggest seems to betray what we know to be the context not only of Paul's writings in general (addressing "saved" believers in the CHURCH) but what he specifically is referring to in this passage which recognizes that every member can and does have an important office/function in the CHURCH and that there are a variety of functions in no order of importance...

______________________________________________________________________
"The problem many African-Americans have with these [BLACK] "CONservatives" is that they appear to air the problems of the black community to the entire nation without offering any Real Solutions."
quote:
But you deserve the truth, and the truth is that there is life in Jesus, and only in him. Don't settle for "good enough." Reach for the best. You'll find it in him.

Again, you want to make this personal and you want to negate what you have said that GOD "hints" to. This is particularly revealing because you have said it outright.

Salvation in JESUS is the BEST! Hmmmmmm....
Good < Better < Best ---
That's like at least two options for salvation if not three. Two/Three doesn't sound like ONLY - i.e. one.

Care to explain??

Are you saying there is faith in GOD that is "good enough" for salvation without Jesus?

You're confusing me and sending me mixed signals! Big Grin
Do you suspend logic and reasoning when you talk about your faith?
Surely not you Melesi? Surely not...

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 22, 2003 at 07:08 AM.]
Nmaginate,

No, you simply are confusing two different cases. Now, let me say this again:

What God has left "hints" about are those people who have never heard of Jesus. I have no doubt that God will act justly and mercifully toward them.

To speak adn to think about them at any length, however, is only an academic exercize. Interesting in its own way, I suppose, but ultimately fruitless. God will take care of them, too.

They are not you. You have heard about Jesus, as have I. About people who have heard God has not "hinted" at all. He's made it quite clear.

What I was saying when I talked about "good enough" is not what God has given us in and for salvation but rather the motive in our heart. If we live satisfied with "good enough," we'll stop short of the best in any category--self improvement, literature, thinking, art, you name it--which includes God. Most people do not try to find the best that God has for them because they are satisfied with what they are or have now. As a result, they do not progress or improve or grow.

We don't like discomfort and will do almost anything to avoid it. Unfortunately, discomfort is the prerequisite to improving. If we seek comfort, we will never improve. So if we settle for "good enough" in order to be comfortable in our life (morals, family, work, religion), then we will never find the best, for we will have stopped searching.

That's what I meant by "good enough." Whatever we have found when we stop probably isn't the best. There is more.

Jesus is best. In him is life. In him is salvation, and only in him. There is "life" in other places, but it's not the best. It's real, but not true. Therefore it's not enough for salvation.

Have you read Romans 7? There's the account of a man who tried to find and live for God without knowing Jesus and allowing him to lead his life. The author had to allow Jesus to lead him in all things, then he was able to live for God in salvation.


There is no salvation apart from Jesus since he came to earth.
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
Nmaginate,

The situations are different. Those who have not heard of Jesus have hints about them written in the Bible. I'm sorry if you do not find that "satisfying," but God does not speak in order to satisfy us. He speaks to tell us what is right.
Hmmmmmmmmm.......
quote:
What I was saying when I talked about "good enough" is not what God has given us in and for salvation but rather the motive in our heart. If we live satisfied with "good enough," we'll stop short of the best in any category--self improvement, literature, thinking, art, you name it--which includes God. Most people do not try to find the best that God has for them because they are satisfied with what they are or have now. As a result, they do not progress or improve or grow.

Which one is it Melesi?

You said GOD does not speak in order to satisfy me (and, again, it's not about me). So, in essence, from what you told me, I have to be satisfied with your concept of GOD that you derive from the BIBLE. That was the CONTEXT wherein you made your comment...

Now, you want to talk about more or less the "settling for less" type of satisfaction as being problematic after YOU have cast down my quest to not be satisfied with less than ample coverage of the topic we're discussing.

I don't see that adding up.

On one hand you chastise me for ever thinking GOD can do and has provided for MORE while on the other you want me to think that I'm not expecting ENOUGH???

You need to work that out for yourself and stop using that canned excuse for things you haven't given much thought to whether it's academic or not...

Yeah, the salvation of so many people outside of the Biblical world is just an academic exercise.

Well, at least you have finally said unequivocally (I think) that GOD will/has taken care of them - eventhough it still sounds like you are avoiding the question of whether THEY ARE "SAVED" or not...

It's also good that you have finally realize the GOD is JUST.

Why you would use the word merciful towards them, I don't know exactly... sounds like you harbor some doubt as to how GOD would view them since they haven't accepted JESUS. I guess they we be treated differently, huh and not be seen as favorably as Christians... Is that what you meant to say? Is that behind all your thoughts?

Anyway... JUST GOD (theory)
Would not have you hesistate and you would say as I have that GOD has revealed HIMSELF to ALL people at ALL times and that HE has had a plan for ALL of them.

But of course that would challenge your idea that JESUS - who historically came around when the world was already old - is the ONLY way.

Is GOD JUST vs. Is JESUS the ONLY WAY?

That seems to be the conflicting views...

And you can leave me out of it. Don't you use ME as an excuse for why you have an inadequate answer to the questions I raise. The BIBLE is suppose to have ALL the Answers right?

Well, I asked a reasonable question:
WILL ***THEY*** (not me) BE "SAVED"?

I guess the answer is NO. God will take care of them, you say, but in your mind - at least without your direct answer to the contrary which I have directly asked for (could it be that you are not listening/addressing my question?) - THEY WILL NOT BE "SAVED"...

I could ask you what the word means and implies but I would rather get one direct answer from you.
ARE *THEY* and WILL *THEY* BE "SAVED"?

It's not that hard. YES or NO, Melesi?

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