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CHRISTIAN'S ARREST TWISTS ARGUMENT
Leonard Pitts Jr., Miami Herald, 6/9/03
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/living/columnists/leonard_pitts/6044921.htm

The story is almost certainly apocryphal, but here it is for what it's worth:

Shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, Muhammad Ali was supposedly visiting ground zero when someone asked a barbed question: How did Ali, the most famous Muslim in the world who is not a terrorist, feel about sharing his religion with Osama bin Laden? The champ shot back, ``How does it feel to share yours with Hitler?''

As I said, the story -- it began circulating shortly after the attacks -- is probably not true, but it ought to be. It's valuable for what it says about our tendency to demonize the unfamiliar and overlook the obvious.

Which brings us to Eric Rudolph, alleged Christian terrorist.

And, to this question: Is that a fair term to describe the accused serial bomber? Some observers have begun debating that since Rudolph's recent arrest in North Carolina, among them The Washington Post, which raised the issue in a story last week, and Arsalan Tariq Iftikhar, Midwest communications director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, who tackled it a few days ago in The Herald.

SEE ALSO:

RELIGION AND TERRORISM WHAT DO WE CALL HIM?
By KAMRAN MEMON, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, 6/9/03
Kamran Memon is a civil rights attorney in Chicago. He serves on the board of the Chicago chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations.
http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/news/5B3C6E2D6E27D00B86256D3E00319244

The AOL Time Warner chat rooms are buzzing. The academics are arguing. The debate about Eric Robert Rudolph's title has begun: Is he an alleged "terrorist" or an alleged "Christian terrorist"?

Rudolph, suspected of violently targeting homosexuals and abortion rights supporters, is allegedly a Christian, possibly linked to the Christian Identity movement and its Army of God. So now Americans are wrestling once again with the connection between religion and terrorism, which burst into our collective consciousness on Sept. 11, 2001, if not before.

Back then, the titles seemed obvious. And if Rudolph had been Muslim, this would have been a no-brainer too. The only debate would have been between "Muslim terrorist" or "Islamic terrorist." After all, Muslims are viewed as "foreigners" and "outsiders" - even though Muslim slaves helped build this country, even though at least one-third of American Muslims are African-Americans and even though American-born children of Muslim immigrants make up another large segment of the community.

But Rudolph has been identified as a Christian, and Americans are much more familiar with Christianity. Many Americans actually know Christians, and they're not such bad folks. Plus, Christians don't get much bad press, aside from sexual misconduct by some priests. So it's not easy for Americans to link the Christian faith to terrorism.

Fewer Americans know a Muslim; there are fewer Muslims to know. And a lot of them have accents, and they eat unusual foods. In addition, many Muslims keep to themselves, fearing rejection and hostility. Plus, Americans keep getting news reports linking Islam to violence overseas. And Sept. 11, 2001, didn't help.

Despite America's familiarity with Christianity, some argue that Rudolph should be called an alleged "Christian terrorist" because he allegedly used violence to further his allegedly "Christian" agenda, just as "Muslim terrorists" used violence to further their allegedly "Islamic" agenda.

There are others, though, who argue that "Christian terrorist" just doesn't sound right. After all, how can the teachings of Jesus be associated with terrorism?

As an American Muslim, I lean towards the latter view. After all, the Quran teaches us that Jesus was a prophet of God, and no prophet of God teaches terrorism...

So where does all this leave Muslims, who cringe when they hear the media and politicians link Islam with terrorism, just because a Muslim used Islam to justify his acts of terror? Hopefully, the press and the politicians will one day come to understand that a Muslim who commits acts of terror is misguided and rebelling against the true teachings of Prophet Muhammad.

But before that day comes, Muslims have to do a much better job of reaching out and explaining our faith. Much better. And our neighbors have to do a much better job of listening, and of separating politics from religion. Much better.
"I believe in the brotherhood of man, all men, but I don't believe in brotherhood with anybody who doesn't want brotherhood with me. I believe in treating people right, but I'm not going to waste my time trying to treat somebody right who doesn't know how to return the treatment." Al-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz (aka Malcolm X)
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I don't care if you are muslin or christan, a terrorist is a terrorist period. However, since the media has made it a point to point out muslin or Islamic terrorist, then it is only fair to point out that this guy is a christan terrorist based on his religious ideas being the driving force behind what he did. After all he is not the first homegrown terrorist or murderor who has espoused his religious beliefs as the reason for what he did.

Bottom line is that if you are going to identify one group of terrorist by their religious beliefs as the cause for what they do then you need to identify them all in the same manner, even when it hits close to home.
Eric Rudolph should share the same fate as his brother Timothy McVeigh. A crime designed to terrorize people is wrong no matter who does it. But it is disturbing that these Christian white nationalist groups have been allowed to flourish without any intervention on behalf of law enforcement officials. It appears as if they have no regard for the safety of U.S. citizens in cases like this.
Except that we're using the words "Christian" out of context and only on what appears to be his announcement (?) that he ia a Christian.

I agree that a terrorist is a terrorist, but given the radical nature of some officially endorsed branches of Islam--with its schoolbooks that talk about killing Jews (A widely-reported case has been the passage in a schoolchild's text in Saudi Arabia: "in that day the tree will say to a Musilm, 'Oh, servant of God, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.' "), there seems to be a difference between several places in Islam and Christianity. Those places that call themselves Christian yet preach hatred and/or violence are denounced by the overwhelming majority of Christianity. So is the guy a Christian or a crank? Is he Christian or does he just call himself one? If he's not a Christian--and he certainly does not follow the teaching of the Church for two thousand years--then he shoudl not be called a Christian terrorist, for he isn't one.
He killed to endorse his view of Christian principles.

Should there of been a Christian book that depicted a tree and a Jew in such a manner, it would be discounted by other Christians because we know that is contary to Christian doctrine. Now, if you knew anything truly about Islam, you would say the same thing. The point is that you don't. Nor are you willing to believe any Muslim that would tell you otherwise.

Would you for once think that the media and the owners of this media who needs people to hate Arabs and Muslims in order to further their greater Isreal goals would allow any mention of the truth regarding Islam? Let me prove my point, next time you go to a book store, read a Qur'an, see for yourself.

When you come to think of it, I don't recall any suicide bombings back in the 1300 and 1400's, nor do I recall any back in the 800, 900's. In fact, I don't recall of any instance of a terrorist action back in the 1920's and 30's. Makes you think doesn't it. That this religion that is claimed to breed terrorism and is so old, yet these terrorists did not exist until a foreign power with overwhelming might decided how things are going to be in favor of immigrants. Wow. Have you ever wondered what France would be like if they spoke arabic? What about Italy? No one ever thought about Palestine. Perhaps those from Mexico should become the majority in the Southwest and then secede from the U.S. and rejoin Mexico.

That is another issue though. The problem is not the religions but rather a failure to follow them as intended.
quote:
Originally posted by Melesi:
Except that we're using the words "Christian" out of context and only on what appears to be his announcement (?) that he ia a Christian.

I agree that a terrorist is a terrorist, but given the radical nature of some officially endorsed branches of Islam--with its schoolbooks that talk about killing Jews (A widely-reported case has been the passage in a schoolchild's text in Saudi Arabia: "in that day the tree will say to a Musilm, 'Oh, servant of God, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.' "), there seems to be a difference between several places in Islam and Christianity. Those places that call themselves Christian yet preach hatred and/or violence are denounced by the overwhelming majority of Christianity. So is the guy a Christian or a crank? Is he Christian or does he just call himself one? If he's not a Christian--and he certainly does not follow the teaching of the Church for two thousand years--then he shoudl not be called a Christian terrorist, for he isn't one.


Melesi, aren't you aware that the U.S. gov't has this program called Psyops. It is totally designed to psychologically sway a people into the way they want you to think. White so-called Christians are the same folks who used to teach seperation of the races, but were up in church every Sunday claiming to be a child of the Lord. I don't buy that. I have worked enough Intel to know that the statement you used is most likely fabricated. The U.S. gov't did that to the NOI in the 1960's to thwart their influence in Saudi Arabia. The same simplistic language and everything is being used. I can't post any links because this stuff is not widely available. But again from my personal knowledge I don't buy it.
Khalilallah

I agree that Islam should not be held hostage do to 9/11. I thinkthe people of Islam are being treated unfairly. I just refered to this same topic on another post.


Calling Randolph the Christian terrorist is idiotic. You are embrassing this topic because of the connection between the terrorist of 9/11 and Islam. If you feel that your religion is being hoodwinked why would you support the highjacking of another. I understand your logic but really what good does it do. I know muslims accross the world are frustrated with this association and I have no solution to your pains, but trying to devalue a religion because you feel yours has been defamed is a vey selfish act.

Is homosexuality accepted in the muslim faith?

Is abortion accepted in the muslim faith?

I could have sworn killings were accepted in Islam if the person murdered had committed a murder themselves. Forgive me if Im wrong but I have many muslim friends and they have confirmed this. They've even gone as far to tell me that if he was back home and stole something it wouldnt be unlikely that his hand would be cut off.

These could be customs of individual groups and not the teachings of Islam Im not sure. I am sure there is a big difference between an american muslim and a arabic or african muslim.
I do not see it as idiotic, nor have I said he was a Christian terrorist. What I am saying is that why should the term terrorist be linked to one religion and not the other when it is clearly the same variables. He wants to promote his religious values (views) through violence, sounds familiar?

Is this me hijacking another religion? No, it is me questioning the perspective of many Americans today, and quite possibly you. After all, you still have yet to understand. in regards towards being a selfish act? I quess you wouldn't be saying the same should I bring up the point as to why white criminals are not the example to judge a race by as much as it is with us blacks...?

Killings are accepted by people, not by the religion. You see, you have not understood the point. Your friends are a perfect example, culture mixed in with the religion leads too. Why would mercy not be granted if it is a person's first offense, stealing? Why would a mother be stoned to death for an alleged sexual offense and leaving her children as orphans?

As for killing by other societies? If some one commited a capital murder in this country, there is a great possibility for the death penalty. So what is your point? We are talking about innocent people, blantant in your face, can not deny or be disputed, innocent people, being killed. Should they be at the Olympics, sitting in their office in New York, playing in a child care center in Oklahoma, praying in a mosque in Florida...

So now the topic is about Islam. Is there a difference between Islam in America and Arabia? Africa? Asia? Yes, it is all about the interpretation, the culture mixed within and which rules of man, written by man, status over the word of Allah, the Qur'an.

Could you believe that I have actually had arguements with other Muslims over Sharia that were in blatant contradiction with the Qur'an? Sura after sura was provided and all that they could do was give me the word of a man to argue it down. They were not arguing with me, they were arguing with Allah for not one word was my own but straight out of the Qur'an...

Back to the subject,

I quess that by asking me is homosexuality and abortion accepted in Islam is an attempt to justify a terrorist's actions?

The answer is no to both of them. I on the other hand allow their fate to be decided by Allah, it is not for me to judge, just to raise my children to know that is not acceptable.

Please try again.
kalilallah,

Not so fast--don't conclude that I will not believe something from a Muslim until I've had a chance to do so. I haven't yet.

This passage is from a schoolbook for children in Saudi Arabia, a country long known for its "puritanical" (the New York Times' term) Wahabi interpretation of Islam. It has many stern, perhaps even radical, teachers of Islam in it, and I know of no one in the Muslim world who are saying that Saudi Arabia is not Muslim.

There are people in it, however, who say that Islam is not a "religion of peace." Muhammed Al-Rameh, from the Supreme Institution for the Judiciary, wrote in Al-Watan (sometimes considered the USA Today of Saudi Arabia) that Islam and the west are natural enemies. Sheik Yusuf Al-Qrardawi had said on Al-Jazeera that western workers in Saudi Arabia were guests and therefore deserved protection. Al-Rameh disagreed: "He says that Islam means peace, while I say that no interpretation ever said so, and God said to fight all the infidel."

Pamphlets are handed out at shopping malls that condemn non-Muslims who wish Muslims well on their non-Muslim holidays. It explains the high school textbook that describes the principle of "Al Wala and Al Barah," or showing loyalty to Muslims and opposing non-Muslims. In 19 pages of explanation, the book includes the explicit teaching that Muslims are supposed to hate infidels and be hostile to them. One of the important ways to do that is to ignore their holidays.

Now, part of the problem here is that, back in the days of Nasser, he made himself an opponent of the House of Saud and made moves to have them overthrown. As a response to that, Saudi Arabia made itself hospitable to the Muslim Brotherhood, disliked and opposed by Nasser and an ally for the Saudis against Nasser's threat. This was the beginning of the strong Wahabism in Saudi Arabia.

And I don't know of very many who are saying that Saudi Arabia is not Muslim. So if a westerner is to think that Islam includes all of these kinds of Muslim--the radical and the violent as well as the contemplative and peaceful--who's to blame?
Yssys,

I'm not so sure. There were no occupied Palestinian lands before 1967, yet when Adolph Eichmann was arested in 1960, a Saudi-Arabian newspaper ran the headline, "Arrest of Eichmann who had the honor of killing six million Jews."

Now, I know that many Arabs do not hate Jews, but many do. Who was that Syrian foreign minister who explained to the pope, "When I see a Jew in front of me, I kill him"?

The quote about the tree and the Jew is from a textbook used by the Islamic Saudi Academy in suburban Virginia not far from Washington, DC. The Washington Post broke that story, and the school did some fast damage-control, assuring people that the book would be replaced. It has since done so. But it doesn't seem to have been replaced back home.

Surely it wasn't Psyops that planted that book in that school, with the full knowledge of the teachers and administrators?
It is funny that your willing to accept that way of thinking rather than the way of thinking of others. You have had several groups come out to explain the true nature of Islam. Most notably CAIR, Council on American Islamic Relations.

I challenge you to go to a bookstore and find anything that demands the extermination of the Jews in the Qur'an. I challenge you to find anything that demands genocide. I can easily find it in the Bible. Remember the taking of the Promise Land? Jericho? Kill every man, woman, children and animal, let not one live?

Should we compare?

Bottom line, my religion does not preach the killing of a race of people, and if I had superior riches, I am sure that I could spread the truth about Islam much more than the Suadi's or anyone else.


Perhaps we should wait until Jerry Falwell spread his brand of christianity. Then we can continue this.
Melesi....

Are you spreading your ignorance and pawning it off as intelligence again?

It's funny how you have such a great allowance for those who have used Bible/Church in evil ways and exuse that or rather try to distance that by claiming "they were not TRUE Christians" but don't... I mean won't apply that same type of [selective] classification to ISLAM.

You, as always, are a hypocrite and contradict your own philosophy with your subjectiveness.

From what I know of the Quran...
Those RACIST White Christians and there rainbow of stooges take those supposedly threatening verses completely out-of-context. There are a number of passages where the context in which Jews & Christians are implicated in a favorable way. Then there are those that, within the context of reaction to negative/threatening behavior from the "infidels", are not favorable and with good contextual reasons.

The Quran is written in full and complete acknowledgement of both Judaism & Christianity and grants them legitimacy - that is for those that truly follow those scriptures and not everybody that merely proclaims them.

Neither Judiasm or Christianity formally within their scripture or doctrine does the same even for each other much less Islam. It was Christians and Christian nations not Islam and Arabs (who are in the minority of worldwide Muslims) that heaped on the Holocaust....
.... So, you should be slow to demonize Muslims/Arabs when Christians have a well documented hatred of Jews.
Khalilallah

I said your statement was idiotic because you attempted to associate rudolph with Christianity because his stance on abortion and homosexuality. These are universal beliefs, believed by christians, jews. mormans, muslims(as you stated yourself) atheis and a host of others. Why say he had a "christian agenda".

Furthermore, it was the terrorist who linked themselves to Islam, not the americans, the british or christians but the terrorist themselves. Now I do agree that media outlets are very (dont undermind the word very) bias on what they allow to be printed and aired, but if an organization says they have put Islamic jihad in to action against all americans how else would the news be reported when Islam and jihad are affiliated with the muslim faith.

I think majority of the responsibility rested on the shoulders of muslim american and foreign muslims living in america to disassociated themselves from these terrorist. You'll were in the position to step up and say this was wrong and you also have been victims of these horrible attacts, but I didnt see to much of that. This is not a generalization but many non-american muslims dont want anything to do with us (americans) I have several personal exeriences that I wont mention because it would seem like Im labeling all non-american muslims. With that being said the chances of you (khalilallah) having non-american muslim friends if you were not muslim are heavily weighed against you. I will admit younger generations are becoming what I say is americanized because this is their home but most dont want to associate with us. I will say though in my experience I've found indian muslims are more open to dialog than most asian and middle eastern muslims.

Truth be told theres not much resistance to terrorist acts in most of the arabic world. Again this should be an issue for american muslims because after all your mecca sits in the mists of the drama.
FREESPIRIT... Melesi...

You can't have it both ways. You can't pick who "qualifies" as a Christian and at the same time classify who is a Muslim. THE FACT IS RUDOLF professes to be a Christian. Whether he aligns with the "mainstream" Christian Church or not is besides the point.

You can make your clarification that he is far outside of the "generally accepted" interpretation of the Christian faith but you must also be willing to allow that same type of license to exist for other faiths where extremist should not be thought as representative of the teachings in that faith.

If Rudolf is not a Christian Terrorist because he believes in the Bible yet has a skewed take on its message then Osama Bin Laden is not a Muslim Terrorist by the same token.

It's not hard to be objective. YOU as Christians (and Muslims for that matter) have the criteria by which to be fair:
  • Treat others as you would want to be treated;
  • Want for your brother what you would want for yourself.
Just in case you're still in denial:
    The man accused of bombing two abortion clinics, a gay nightclub, and an Olympic celebration in Atlanta wasn't just a madman allegedly acting out of rage.
  • /Police and specialists on religious hate crime in the United States believe that he was moved to act by his long embrace of a radical Christian movement that holds Jews, blacks, and gays to be less than human.

  • Rudolph reads the same Bible as the average worshiper in the pew on Sunday morning, but he was a member of a loosely knit congregation whose creed leads to violence, whose interpretation of God's word allegedly drove him to set off bombs and then flee into the North Carolina mountains.

  • ''Eric Rudolph was quite clearly driven by wildly extreme readings of theology,' ' said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center. ''He was essentially religiously driven.''
Remember that that it was William J. Simmons, a former Methodist preacher who organized a new Klan in Stone Mountain, Georgia in 1915 as a patriotic, Protestant fraternal society. This new Klan directed its (terrorist) activity against, not just blacks, but any group it considered un-American, including immigrants and Jews.

Isn't it a fact that the Christian faith rest at the core of domestic terrorist activity committed by white organizations like the Klu Klux Klan, Aryan Nation, Identity Christians, American Nazis, Skin Heads, and the assortment of Southern Confederate organizations? Yet ironically, I have never seen or heard the likes of Jerry Falwell or any other white fundamentalist preacher publicly condemn the likes of Richard Butler and his White Identity Church of Jesus Christ or the cornucopia of white terrorist organizations claiming to be Christian like the Klan or Skin Heads!

Still, in their typical insidious manor the white media constantly questions whether Islamic organizations like the Nation of Islam and other orthodox Islamic practices in general foster terrorist activity!

[This message was edited by kraaaal on June 18, 2003 at 05:02 PM.]
Kraal posted,

Isn't it a fact that the Christian faith rest at the core of domestic terrorist activity committed by white organizations like the Klu Klux Klan, Aryan Nation, Identity Christians, American Nazis, Skin Heads, and the assortment of Southern Confederate organizations? Yet ironically, I have never seen or heard the likes of Jerry Falwell or any other white fundamentalist preacher publicly condemn the likes of Richard Butler and his White Identity Church of Jesus Christ or the cornucopia of white terrorist organizations claiming to be Christian like the Klan or Skin Heads!

Still, in their typical insidious manor the white media constantly questions whether Islamic organizations like the Nation of Islam and other orthodox Islamic practices in general foster terrorist activity!



* Brother, the statement you just made always made me wonder why blacks buy into Christianity hook, line and sinker while never questioning the things that our so-called white teachers have done historically. It is almost like they placed some of us in a cult-like trance that we never recovered from. So like you said how Falwell and Co. never mention their Christian

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