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That Old Black Devil


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S A N K O F A : Return & Fetch It!
Learn from and build on the past. It is not taboo to return and fetch
what you have forgotten. You can always correct what went wrong.
In the past, you find the future and understand the present.
Original Post

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MBM, Nmaginate,

T.D. Jakes' morning program, "The Potter's House," had a great program yesterday about the slave trade and had this couple, the Pettys, had over hundreds of slave artifacts, proving that slavery was condoned by the church.

Let's be honest, there are still people in this world, particularly Christians, who believe that black people are cursed.
Maverick,

I definitely believe in GOD. Currently, I don't belong to any faith.

I was baptized in a Missionary Baptist Church. I went C.O.G.I.C. while in high school and "studied" Islam while in college. Personally, I would like to explore African concepts/spiritualism. My wife goes to a Baptist Church so I go with her from time to time. I used to be very active though I came from a family where my mom would "send us to church".

Spiritually/mentally the Christian Church doesn't satisfy me and I tend to esteem Islamic concepts of GOD higher. Nevertheless, I'm sort of searchin' for an authentic spiritualism that relates to who I am as an AFRICAN-American, one replete with geniune African type conceptions of GOD and CREATION.

May I ask: Why'd you ask? (Did I offend you?)
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MBM,

It's not my intellect...

You know... When I was young and in the Church I can remember a prayer I said when I was learning about Solomon. I prayed that I would be even wiser than he... Perhaps whatever intellect you see is the effects of that prayer. I'm just like most everyone - searchin' for the truth and/or understanding.

Anyway... Thanks for the compliment. You know I respect your Gray Matter as well.

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on October 03, 2003 at 11:21 AM.]
My beef with Sheba,

Oddly enough, it's entertainment. I appreciate the No-Holds Barred or at least the endless point-and-counterpoint nature of it.

I had full intentions on keeping this topic and others like it in the "Q" ("?"). I used Sheba's name specifically because I was directing all my comments to her and her ideas about Christianity and how the Church wasn't complicit in slavery.

That has nothing to do with whether or not I respect Christians or the teachings... just not Sheba's pristine and ahistorical notions.

BTW, we go at on just about everything, which again is something I enjoy. I apologize if I offended you.
That was actually one of the latest themes that we battled over.

How do you feel about people of other faiths?
Do you feel they are DAMNED if they don't accept Jesus? and, more importantly, do you feel as a Christian that you are suppose to discuss or judge who will and who won't go to hell based on whether they accept Christ/Christianity?

In other words, Do you feel that believers in other religions have "salvation" in what they believe? and What does Jesus say on that?
quote:
Traditional African religions like Ancient Egyptian mysticism, Vodou, Yoruba, Zulu, and others are very real although some fear it. They are essential, spiritual and somewhat calming; speaking about the good of it that is. They also take you back to the african heritage

Perhaps you've already posted about some of them but could you give me some info. I won't say I fear them but I do feel an awkwardness or an uneasy approach to some things, perhaps because their not engrained.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Perhaps you've already posted about some of them but could you give me some info. I won't say I fear them but I do feel an awkwardness or an uneasy approach to some things, perhaps because their not engrained.


By excellence, Ifa Orisha, Vodou, Santeria or Lucumi, (different names but the SAME african religion) are very powerful! Good when use for such purposes and bad when use to accomplish evil. Besides, in the Fon language of Dahomey now called Benin in East Africa, Vodou means "Sacred", "Spirit", "Deity" or "Divine spirit". Ifa Orisha or Vodou is part of everything in Nature. The Lwa or spirits of Vodou are like branches of a Great Tree or Great Root (God or Bondye). The spirits are within the elements of Nature, such as the sky, wind, water, earth, air, fire, plants, etc... Each spirit has their own purpose. We can communicate with them not only through ceremony or service but also by acknowledging them and interaction with them in our daily lives.

I dont' practice it but I am a FIRM BELLIEVER in VODOU! I believe that there Power behind it that is unexplanatory. Which is why some of our own people choose to make fun of it rather than understand it being blinded by the invaders of our ancestors who attempted learn Vodou in secret (for power) while hypocritically shunning it and labeling it pagan and uncivilized in public. Even today, scientists are still doing extensive research on Vodou while publicly humiliating it...

I am happy to see many African-Americans in the Unites States adopt the traditional religion as it is manifested in Yorubaland West Africa (Nigeria, Togo, Benin areas). Ifa Orisha/ Vodou is very strong in the South, especially in Louisiana and Mississippi, is also practiced in Florida, along the East Coast, especially New York, and in Seattle, Washington.

Check out these sites and contact the people there to learn more about Traditional African Religions.

Haitian Vodou http://www.amnh.org/exhibitions/vodou/roots.html

Dahomean & Diaspora Vodoun http://www.mamiwata.com

http://www.mamiwata.com/history.html
Voodoo: The Religious Practice of Southern Slaves in America

Ptah-Ra, Kemet, Shona, Zulu, etc..more about Traditional African Religions experience. http://www.ashantitone.com/


Good Luck!

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on October 03, 2003 at 11:31 PM.]
Dunno? You tell me. I would think that at a certain time that's all they (the Christian Church) saw was them or "pagans".

I only cited it for the info. not the necessarily the perspective.

*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*----*
S A N K O F A : Return & Fetch It!
Learn from and build on the past. It is not taboo to return and fetch
what you have forgotten. You can always correct what went wrong.
In the past, you find the future and understand the present.
bro. Nmaginate,

I am not criticizing you or the article, merely seeking to learn. I found it very interesting. Thanks for posting it. I guess I have watched too many cecil b. de Mille Frown productions and had a very narrowly tailored view of what a "pagan" was.

lawdhammercy! came in here to ax a question and got a homework assignment!
*poof* gone to google
quote:
Let us look first at how a much-used dictionary, The American Heritage Dictionary, defines "Pagan" -

1. One who is not a Christian, Muslim, or Jew, especially a worshiper of a polytheistic religion.
2. One who has no religion.
3. A non-Christian.
4. A hedonist.
5. A Neo-Pagan.

I doubt if that tells you about the "origin" of the word...
"Pagan" actually has a logical history, unlike so many words in English. It really indicated someone who was not in the army.

It had two meanings back in the day of the late Roman Empire. The first one, and the one that is allied to but not directly connected to teh meaning the word has come to have, is "villager." It didn't have the slightly perjorative meangin of "peasant" back then. It just meant someone who lived in a village.

How it came to mean a "non-believer" was through some of the writers in the early Church who called themselves "militi Christi," or "soldiers of Christ." Those who were not serving in this army were civilians, or "pagani."

Villagers did not serve in the army since they were too busy plowing and milking, so "pagani" was late Roman slang for the "civili" (which formerly meant "people") who did not serve in the army.

Thus, someone not a Christian (and I think it was used by the Jews to mean someone not Jewish, too) was a "civilian" or a "paganus."
Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaathetic. Oh yeah secular humanist site now there's an accurate source of information about Christianity Roll Eyes

There is NO command of God ANYWHERE in the Bible that other races are inferior. Treatment of others was based solely on their RELIGION. It had nothing to do with race. The Bible does not even contain a concept of "race", nor does it even acknowlege that such a concept exists.

That people within the churches accepted the idea of racism does not mean they plucked the idea from the teachings of the Bible. It means that it's freaking obvious that mankind is still a sinful lot and various weaknesses abound even amongst the believers.

Arguing that because a large group of Christians were a bunch of racist f***s it means that "Christianity" condones racism is misleading. There are multitudes of denominations in Christianity, some with radically different ideas on what some things mean. "The Curse of Ham/Canaan" is usually what is referred to when people try to say the Bible condones racism. But this is not what it was all about at all. Canaan was the ancestor of the wicked Canaanites. It is said that Ham had dark skin; but nowhere is this said to make any difference. This was not a command--this was a prediction. Anyways it is not Ham that is cursed, it was Canaan. So the whole racial aspect of the argument by people is kinda blown outta the water by any sort of decent scholarship.

The second-century crap is a product of some bugger's vivid imagination. The Devil is described as appearing as "an angel of light" when he wants. Hardly the sort of thing that lends to a racial aspect against blacks.

Dude you can't win. My grandfather was a minister and I've got most of his reference books. Razz Cool Big Grin

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
How do you feel about people of other faiths?

What do you mean how do I feel? When it comes to person-to-person contact I'm not mean to them just because they are blah blah blah religion.

[QUOTE: Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Do you feel they are DAMNED if they don't accept Jesus?[/QUOTE]
What's this "feel" crap? This has NOTHING to do with feelings. It is what I know, not what I feel.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
and, more importantly, do you feel as a Christian that you are suppose to discuss or judge who will and who won't go to hell based on whether they accept Christ/Christianity?

Stating a fact is not the same as judging. God's already doing the judging, we are merely the messenger. Get it through your thick head--HE is the one that said that. We do not decide, as it's pretty much in the other person's hands whether they are receptive to believing or not. They get the information and can then act on it as they are inclined.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
In other words, Do you feel that believers in other religions have "salvation" in what they believe?

NO.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
and What does Jesus say on that?

It's very simple:

Mark 16:16

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

John 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1John 5:10

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

Like I said before you cannot win. I have the resources available to shoot your arguments dowwwwwwwwwwn.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaathetic. Oh yeah secular humanist site now there's an accurate source of information about Christianity

Talking about accurate source...

What makes you a Christian an accurate source about other cultures and religions? Do you too distort what others believe because of your bias???

What makes you believe you're going to Heaven or that you will be saved with your "Superiority" complex?

Again... you want to do GOD's job for him and CONDEMN people when JESUS said HE does not JUDGE or CONDEMN!!

And aren't you suppose to follow CHRIST?

"My grandpa is a minister!!!" "It was Canaan!"... And what does that have to do with the historical damage done!

You are like the Pharsees you think you know... Well, we know what JESUS thought of know-it-alls like them who had no understanding of how the scriptures were to relate to the people in meaningful ways.
quote:
Originally posted by shebakoby:
Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaathetic. Oh yeah secular humanist site now there's an accurate source of information about Christianity Roll Eyes

There is NO command of God ANYWHERE in the Bible that other_ races_ are inferior. Treatment of others was based solely on their RELIGION. It had nothing to do with race. The Bible does not even contain a concept of "race", nor does it even acknowlege that such a concept exists.

That people _within the churches_ accepted the idea of racism _does not mean_ they plucked the idea from the teachings of the Bible. It means that it's freaking obvious that mankind is still a sinful lot and various weaknesses abound even amongst the believers.

Arguing that because a large group of Christians were a bunch of racist f***s it means that "Christianity" condones racism is misleading. There are multitudes of denominations in Christianity, some with radically different ideas on what some things mean. "The Curse of Ham/Canaan" is usually what is referred to when people try to say the Bible condones racism. But this is not what it was all about at all. Canaan was the ancestor of the wicked Canaanites. It is said that Ham had dark skin; but nowhere is this said to make any difference. This was not a command--this was a prediction. Anyways _it is not Ham that is cursed_, it was Canaan. So the whole racial aspect of the argument by people is kinda blown outta the water by any sort of decent scholarship.




It is that same argument of blacks being "cursed" that made Europeans and even some Arabs justified in enslaving black Africans.
What about Hinduism? Don't they practice racism based on the caste system? The Dahlits are the lower caste people in this religion who are also descendants of East Africans during the Arab slave trade. I think that Hindi society has to be the most segregated and discriminatory society in the world.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
What about Hinduism? Don't they practice racism based on the caste system? The Dahlits are the lower caste people in this religion who are also descendants of East Africans during the Arab slave trade. I think that Hindi society has to be the most segregated and discriminatory society in the world.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965


Yssys you are absofu**inglotely RIGHT.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
Paaaaaaaaaaaaaaaathetic. Oh yeah secular humanist site now there's an accurate source of information about Christianity

Talking about accurate source...

What makes you a Christian an accurate source about other cultures and religions? Do you too distort what others believe because of your bias???


Well some Christian writers may not get everything right about some things, but then you also have to take into account the attitudes of the people doing the writing and why they are doing it? The secular humanists are writing their stuff the way they do out of malice. This is evident in the fact that their teachings are not love-oriented and not writing from a perspective of they CARE about people in some way.
Christian writers on the other hand are writing from a perspective of they care about people and want them to know the truth. Christ warned of "False Teachers" the whole time he was on Earth. And even if they do get into inaccuracies (that are usually corrected later, sometimes by other people), the basic message is the other religions are FALSE religions. Their gods are false gods. Any powerful entity evident in supernatural events in such religions are works of powerful demons (fallen cursed angels).


quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
What makes you believe you're going to Heaven or that you will be saved with your "Superiority" complex?

Huh? I don't believed I'm saved because I'm "superior" (again with the superiority b.s.? Jebuz Cripes 'nate...), I believe I am saved because Jesus died on the Cross to take away all our sins!

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Again... you want to do GOD's job for him and CONDEMN people when JESUS said HE does not JUDGE or CONDEMN!!


No I am NOT freaking doing God's job for it, HE is doing it. I do not condemn. I merely state the qualifications for salvation. THAT IS NOT THE F***ING SAME THING. By your logic, a Scout Troop leader shouldn't tell the Scouts how to earn a Merit badge! Roll Eyes

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
And aren't you suppose to follow CHRIST?

I'm doing it.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
"My grandpa is a minister!!!" "It was Canaan!"... And what does that have to do with the historical damage done!

You can't blame it on the Bible. The Bible NEVER says that the BLACK man is cursed! (or any other color for that matter...)

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
You are like the Pharsees you think you know... Well, we know what JESUS thought of know-it-alls like them who had no understanding of how the scriptures were to relate to the people in meaningful ways.


NO that's not what Jesus was on about! Again you don't understand that of which you criticize. The Pharisees and their lot had a whole new set of laws (today it is called the Talmud) that didn't effing belong in the Teachings of the Law. IT WAS LAWS MADE BY MEN, and these newb laws pretty much negated the Original Laws written by Moses!

KJMatt.23



"1": Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

"2": Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

"3": All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

"4": For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

"5": But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

"6": And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,

"7": And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.

"8": But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.

"9": And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

"10": Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

"11": But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.

"12": And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

"13": But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

"14": Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

"15": Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

"16": Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!

"17": Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

"18": And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.

"19": Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?

"20": Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon.

"21": And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.

"22": And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.

"23": Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

"24": Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

"25": Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.

"26": Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

"27": Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.

"28": Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

"29": Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

"30": And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

"31": Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

"32": Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

"33": Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?


"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I guess you would refute the old adage I've heard plenty of preachers use that even a bum can tell you the truth...

Yeah, I'm sure would. You think people with "weaker morals" are inferior so apparently they have nothing to say to an elists like you.


F***ING NOOOOOOOOOOO! THEY ARE NOT "INFERIOR"!!!!! They just don't follow the Truth (whether by choice or by lack of choice). The only "superiority" here is the simple fact that the Truth is ALWAYS superior to lies. I am not an elitist. What is this "superiority" b.s. you keep going on about?

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
I'll ask you the same question I asked Melesi.

There are Muslim's in the West and worldwide that don't fit any of your cultural biases about the so-called "weaker morals" or draconian practices that you attribute in ignorance to their "religion"...

I guess they too are "inferior" (if someone or something is "superior" by default other things by comparison are "inferior") by your estimation?

What about people of faiths other than Christianity that have "stronger" morals than Christians?
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I'll ask you the same question I asked Melesi.

There are Muslim's in the West and worldwide that don't fit any of your cultural biases about the so-called "weaker morals" or draconian practices that you attribute in ignorance to their "religion"...


No I don't always attribute draconian practices to their current religion--many of those practices are holdovers from previous religions that had been in the area (for instance ancient tribal Arabic polytheism), however this is irrelevant. Morality leads to a more stable society than ones where immorality is given free run, that's just common sense.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I guess they too are "inferior" (if someone or something is "superior" by default other things by comparison are "inferior") by your estimation?

NO they are not "inferior" they are just not saved. If they believed in Christ (they wouldn't be Muslim anymore) they would be saved. This hasn't got much to do with "superiority" (damn why are you hung up on that word dude?) other than the fact that Truth is undeniably superior to LIES.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
What about people of faiths other than Christianity that have "stronger" morals than Christians?


Whether or not that's true is irrelevant. Morality is an outward action but humans are saved if they repent of their innate wickedness and believe that Jesus died to remove those sins from the record. Humans saved and unsaved both are sinners--we all will sin to the day we die. The difference is how we deal with that. Christians are no better than other people in the fact that every human being is a sinner. Most other religions are in that River in Egypt, you know, denial--many do not even recognize the concept of "sin." That doesn't help people at all.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
Most other religions are in that River in Egypt, you know, denial--many do not even recognize the concept of "sin." That doesn't help people at all.


Which religions don't?

I'm sure ISLAM does. I'm sure most all if not completely all have dealt with that very aspect of human being... Of course, being Christian you undoubtedly play semantics if they don't use the exact same term.... so much so that you act like "GOD" is suppose to be a universal name...

And it's really rather ironic how very serious questions about things you are supposedly so certain of otherwise (where do GOD's believers who never heard of JESUS go? and those that were no where near the BIBLICAL WORLD?) are left with less than sure answers.

(Forgive the overlap with Melesi's posts...)
quote:
Most other religions are in that River in Egypt, you know, denial--many do not even recognize the concept of "sin." That doesn't help people at all.



quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Which religions don't?


American-Indian Shamanism does not recognize the concept of 'sin', for example.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I'm sure ISLAM does. I'm sure most all if not completely all have dealt with that very aspect of human being... Of course, being Christian you undoubtedly play semantics if they don't use the exact same term....

No it's not just the terminology it's the concept and how it is handled. Islam does NOT accept the free gift of salvation by Jesus Christ--they are wholly "works righteousness"-oriented. The Bible CLEARLY teaches that works-righteousness DOES NOT SAVE. Our works are as filthy rags when it comes to trying to use them to gain favor with God rather than believing on Christ.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
so much so that you act like "GOD" is suppose to be a universal name...
huh?

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
And it's really rather ironic how very serious questions about things you are supposedly so certain of otherwise (where do GOD's believers who never heard of JESUS go? and those that were no where near the BIBLICAL WORLD?) are left with less than sure answers.

There is a passage where it says God overlooked some ignorance in the past. It's in Acts 17 where Paul is speaking to the Athenians.

[29] Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
[30] And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
[31] Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
[32] And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
[33] So Paul departed from among them.
[34] Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.


This was in reference to the altar to "The Unknown God."
This may apply to people who had zero contact with the Israelites.
But whatever happened back then, there's pretty much no excuse for idolatry now.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
quote:
This was in reference to the altar to "The Unknown God."
This may apply to people who had zero contact with the Israelites.
But whatever happened back then, there's pretty much no excuse for idolatry now.

quote:
...we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.


There are NO images (pictures) of GOD in Islam let alone "graven images" and very few if any of Muhammad for that matter but you do find a lot of that in Christianity.

Making a blanket statement that ALL other concepts of GOD is IDOL WORSHIP when compared to Christianity's concept of GOD is the idiocy that fuels RACISM!

To think that every people on the planet earth would express their ideas about who and what GOD is and our relation to him (SIN or otherwise) in the same, UNIFORM way is like thinking ALL people should have the SAME LANGUAGE where all words mean the same.

Language alone should give an INTELLIGENT person insight into how it is possible to have differing concepts of GOD.

If you believe everyone should have the SAME religion then SHEBA go all the way with your ONE-WORLDISM and institute a Universal Language.

There's proof of the utter lunacy and tyrrany of your ill-fated, ill-conceived views.

GOD IS JUST! And he is GOD to ALL! And ALL are his creations - body, mind, soul and RELIGION!
quote:
This was in reference to the altar to "The Unknown God."
This may apply to people who had zero contact with the Israelites.
But whatever happened back then, there's pretty much no excuse for idolatry now.

quote:
...we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.


quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
There are NO images (pictures) of GOD in Islam let alone "graven images" and very few if any of Muhammad for that matter but you do find a lot of that in Christianity.

Actually you find a lot of it in Roman Catholicism. Protestantism does not use "images" as worship-aids. F***, Islam is so extreme about images that a person can't paint a picture of a f***ing pussy cat for fear of it being worshipped. Roll Eyes


quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Making a blanket statement that ALL other concepts of GOD is IDOL WORSHIP when compared to Christianity's concept of GOD is the idiocy that fuels RACISM!
Hold on now, pal, EXACTLY HOW does it do THAT?! Especially since even among WHITE people there are various and diverse opinions on what constitutes the correct or "best" for the person concept of God/god?! If one white person tells another white person that their concept of God is mistaken or wrong in some way, where's the fuelling of racism?! Particular religion is not exclusive to any particular race (except where stipulated by the adherents in rare instances)--any person can believe WHATEVER THE F*** THEY WANT. Indians don't HAVE to believe in Shamanism, Japanese do not "have" to adhere to either Zen or Shinto; East Indians don't HAVE to be Hindu or Sikh; White people don't "have" to be Christian or Atheist, and Africans don't 'have' to believe in Santeria/Voodoo/Animism, just because of what "race" they are.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
To think that every people on the planet earth would express their ideas about who and what GOD is and our relation to him (SIN or otherwise) in the same, UNIFORM way is like thinking ALL people should have the SAME LANGUAGE where all words mean the same.

Ummm bad analogy dude. This isn't anything LIKE different languages. Contradictory beliefs are contradictory beliefs. One religion calls for human sacrifice (most of these religions are no longer practiced in the modern world); does this mean they are the same as every other religion? Is human sacrifice a valid means of appeasing a deity; or is it a total perversion of what sacrifice was supposed to be all about? Hmmmmmmm? In any case such a practice is in total contradiction to several religions including Christianity; so isn't there a situation where a person could see that some practices are abominable even in the comparison?

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Language alone should give an INTELLIGENT person insight into how it is possible to have differing concepts of GOD.

Not when it totally goes against how God has revealed Himself.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
If you believe everyone should have the SAME religion then SHEBA go all the way with your ONE-WORLDISM and institute a Universal Language.

Very well. English. Wink

No seriously, there is not really any need to have a universal language. This is not an analagous situation. RELIGIOUS differences are NOT THE SAME as having a different language.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
There's proof of the utter lunacy and tyranny of your ill-fated, ill-conceived views.

LOL no, there's proof of your inability to see that your analogy was crap.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
GOD IS JUST! And he is GOD to ALL! And ALL are his creations - body, mind, soul and RELIGION!


He is God to all, but that doesn't mean everybody follows him. The sinfulness and rebellion of Man that comes naturally will cause man to pervert Religion.

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh
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Hold on now, pal, EXACTLY HOW does it do THAT?! Especially since even among WHITE people there are various and diverse opinions on what constitutes the correct or "best" for the person concept of God/god?! If one white person tells another white person that their concept of God is mistaken or wrong in some way, where's the fuelling of racism?! Particular religion is not exclusive to any particular race

Sheba??? Is not ethnic cleansing and feuds within the same "race" akin to racism?

That is, prejudice based on WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE, WHERE YOU ARE FROM, etc.

Is the historical treatment of the Irish by Britian not akin to racism?

What about the Jews? They appear to be WHITE and when persecuted in Nazi Germany they were admittedly EUROPEAN looking...
What do you call that? LOVISM?

In the ACTING WHITE scenario did you not fault the accuser of having "racist" ideas about Whites and more or less Blacks because of the so-called "low standard" of studying not being something that Blacks do?
Would that not be evidence of internalized or intra-group racism if in fact the negative racial stereotypes are promoted about Blacks by Blacks?

It doesn't follow that the "root" impact of "racism" is limited to so-called different races.

What were the "No Irish Allowed" and "Irish Need Not Apply" signs in post Civil War America indicative of and akin to?

Matter of fact... a lot of inner-racial strife (Irish or Jew) were often said to be mixed with Black [Africans] or actual direct descendants.

What do you call religious persecution when there is a certain ethnic group that do belong to a different religion? German/English Christians vs. Jews? You must keep in mind that most religions at least at their inception were primarily the properties of a particular "race".

Also, WHY ARE ANTI-DISCRIMINATION LAWS about more than just "racial discrimination" per se and extend to "national origin"?? What is the real difference between "race" and ethnicity or national origin? Is discrimination less harmful if it is not "racial"? Is it not still discrimination?

Isn't "RACISM" contingent on discrimination on the basis of "difference"? Did not the different Christian traditions begin with particular ethnic groups more or less subscribing to a doctrine unique to them or thereby creating their own cultural interpretation of Christianity?
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He is God to all, but that doesn't mean everybody follows him.

Okay Sheba...

How do you know whether someone of a different religion is "following" GOD or not?

I won't belabor the point that if HE is GOD to all then he must have, in order to be just, made a way AT ALL TIMES for ALL THOSE that HE IS GOD TO...

That means people ALL around the world who where not covered by the Israeli Old Testament Covenant and not directly implicated in the New Testament Covenant (in the sense that they got the message as soon as it was delivered by the Apostles) WERE IN FACT GIVEN A MESSAGE IN THEIR TIME, BY THEIR OWN MESSENGERS (or others more accessible than the Old/New Testament "messengers").

That's a JUST GOD and GOD TO ALL in my book.

Israel didn't "follow" GOD and all Christians don't either yet GOD has not failed to give them messengers from among them.

(His own received him not.)
Was their some expectation that others are suppose to receive you before your own? Or is there an expectation that one's own people should be the first, if not the only, people to receive GOD's messenger for them?

Or is it that once a "messenger's" own refuse to "receive" him that GOD allows others to have the "blessing" that was meant for them (the messenger's own people)?
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Hold on now, pal, EXACTLY HOW does it do THAT?! Especially since even among WHITE people there are various and diverse opinions on what constitutes the correct or "best" for the person concept of God/god?! If one white person tells another white person that their concept of God is mistaken or wrong in some way, where's the fuelling of racism?! Particular religion is not exclusive to any particular race

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Sheba??? Is not ethnic cleansing and feuds within the same "race" akin to racism?

Well first of all race is a BULLSH** concept. There is ONE human race. Secondly, there are other factors at work here--if we are to take YOUR definition of racism as THE ONLY definition of racism (finding inferiority or imagining it), then it's DEFINITELY not the same.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
That is, prejudice based on WHAT YOU LOOK LIKE, WHERE YOU ARE FROM, etc.


But awhile ago you were just saying that THAT is NOT RACISM. Showing more inconsistency, I see... :roll:

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Is the historical treatment of the Irish by Britain not akin to racism?

Not really, if going by YOUR definition of racism.

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
What about the Jews? They appear to be WHITE and when persecuted in Nazi Germany they were admittedly EUROPEAN looking...
What do you call that? LOVISM?

???????????????

WTF are you talking about???!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
In the ACTING WHITE scenario did you not fault the accuser of having "racist" ideas about Whites and more or less Blacks because of the so-called "low standard" of studying not being something that Blacks do?
Would that not be evidence of internalized or intra-group racism if in fact the negative racial stereotypes are promoted about Blacks by Blacks?

What does that have to do with this?

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
It doesn't follow that the "root" impact of "racism" is limited to so-called different races.

Are you admitting that YOUR definition of racism ISN'T exclusively what you said it was?

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
What were the "No Irish Allowed" and "Irish Need Not Apply" signs in post Civil War America indicative of and akin to?


What the hell do you think I've been saying all along??!!!

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Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Matter of fact... a lot of intra-racial strife (Irish or Jew) were often said to be mixed with Black [Africans] or actual direct descendants.

Well I have heard of the Black Irish...but some totally pasty-white Irish people were discriminated against and I betcha hardly anyone gave the idea a second thought.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
What do you call religious persecution when there is a certain ethnic group that do belong to a different religion? German/English Christians vs. Jews? You must keep in mind that most religions at least at their inception were primarily the properties of a particular "race".

WRONG.

You would be surprised how similar the various pagan religions are worldwide--be the practicioners black, white, or shades in between--in many cases the beliefs are very nearly identical; the gods merely have different names.

Buddha was from India but his Buddhist religion caught on real good in the Orient.

Christianity is no excluder of race. Anybody can be a Christian.

While Judaism as we know it started with "God's Chosen People", it was not exclusive to descendants of Abraham. Many pagans converted to early Judaism in the old Israelite days (such as Rahab of Jericho or Ruth of Moab).

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Also, WHY ARE ANTI-DISCRIMINATION LAWS about more than just "racial discrimination" per se and extend to "national origin"?? What is the real difference between "race" and ethnicity or national origin? Is discrimination less harmful if it is not "racial"? Is it not still discrimination?

Buddy, discrimination is discrimination, of course. What's the issue here is whether the discrimination is based on some form of "inferiority/superiority" dynamic. You've been arguing til you're blue in the face that it's all about inferiority or superiority. I'm telling you it's about other things as well.

quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Isn't "RACISM" contingent on discrimination on the basis of "difference"? Did not the different Christian traditions begin with particular ethnic groups more or less subscribing to a doctrine unique to them or thereby creating their own cultural interpretation of Christianity?


Dude, DIFFERENT PEOPLE in the same "race" can have different ideas about doctrine! Your argument falls flat.

And all this time you were arguing that racism and discrimination thereof were somehow ALL about "inferiority"... Roll Eyes Now there's some "cognitive dissonance" of yours... Wink

"You liberals with your conspiracy theories are starting to sound like your own version of the John Birch Society"-Rush Limbaugh

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