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I am thinking after the court remove "one nation Under God" from the pledge. Black men and women should then petition the court to remove "and justice for all" from the pledge. I believe it will be quite simple to lay the case out that the Black man and woman have not received justice from this nation's justice system and therefore "and justice for all" should be removed until this nation has a history of justice being administered equally in this country.

Who with me on this?
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There are Negroes who will never fight for freedom. There are Negroes who will seek profit for themselves from the struggle. There are even some Negroes who will cooperate with the oppressors. The hammer blows of discrimination, poverty, and segregation must warp and corrupt some. No one can pretend that because a people may be oppressed, every individual member is virtuous and worthy. Martin Luther King

More to come later! Your Brother Faheem
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quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
I am thinking after the court remove "one nation Under God" from the pledge. Black men and women should then petition the court to remove "and justice for all" from the pledge. I believe it will be quite simple to lay the case out that the Black man and woman have not received justice from this nation's justice system and therefore "and justice for all" should be removed until this nation has a history of justice being administered equally in this country.

Who with me on this?

I am with you. Actually, I have not said the pledge in almost 25 years and have no intention of doing so now. I am also the kind of person who does not stand for the "Star Spangled Banner", but will rise for "Lift Every Voice."
I definitely understand the sentiments - as this country while being closer to its own ideals than other countries, is still far off.

It is, however, an ideal. That is something we should keep in mind. As far as a nation-state goes, if one uses an ideal as criteria in judgement, there will be nothing to stand for.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with not standing- don't get me wrong. I was just throwing that little thought out there.

I, personally, don't think a pledge is really needed to begin with.
What is the hate America crowd? How is this crowd defined? How many things must one dislike about this country before they are allowed in the prestigious hate America crowd?

How long can something remain an ideal or a concept before the realization that it is false concept and a false ideal and will not become a reality in the foreseeable future?
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
How long can something remain an ideal or a concept before the realization that it is false concept and a false ideal and will not become a reality in the foreseeable future?


When can one say that an "ideal" has ever become a reality? This is basically a rejection of all ideals. This is fine with me as long as you realize that ideals will always be ideals.

What sets this country apart from others is the ideals set in place and the pursuit of those ideals. The failure to reach them doesn't make this country any different from any other. It only proves what is self-evident- that the project is run by humans and is therefore fallible and incapable of perfection.

But I think the goals of liberty and justice are noble ones that few societies have the courage and stanima to set for themselves. For that matter, few societies have come as close to the idea as this country, despite all of its failings.

One's best shot at liberty and justice and the pursuit of hapiness is in America at this point in time. People know this- that's why so many do all they can to get here.
When you pledge allegiance to the flag, you're pledging allegiance to the flag and what its supposed to represent. To some people it represents the best of democracy, power and supreme moral authority. To some other people it represents oppression, death, genocide, hypocrisy, robbery or rape.
Now do you really think that it's reasonable for the people who find the flag to represent all of those negative things to continue to pledge to the flag without some psychological consequence?
quote:
Originally posted by DeltaJ:
Yes, how naive the topic is. What would be the 'goal' of removing the concept of justice? Things would get better? This is the typical leftist view of the hate america crowd, symbolism over substance in all its glory.

Thankfully, about 87% of americans are against removing god from the pledge.


Big Grin The flag itself is a symbol. When you say the pledge to the flag you are pledging to a symbol with symbolic words that are representing the things that you are supposed to be entitled to as an American citizen. However, the substance of the pledge has still eluded many people who are citizens. So in fact one who wishes to continue pledging to a symbol with symbolic speech in your own words is guilty of a "typical leftist view....symbolism over substance in all its glory."
I guess you're guilty. Big Grin
Was that supposed to be a response to me yssys? Yeah, I'm guilty, but whatever of, I have no idea.

Please, can we try to at least stick to the topic at hand? Toussaint just provided a great response and view, and what do you do yssys? You start whining about the flag.

But I found one thing useful in your post, and heres a critical difference between liberals and conservatives. Your write:
symbolic words that are representing the things that you are supposed to be entitled to as an American citizen.

So, part of the is that its ONLY about 'entitlements' to the left these days. Responsibility is not even a word in leftist dictionaries at all.

Anyways, despite the distraction, lets try and stay focused on the topic of God in the pledge.
Oh, and I'm truly sorry about your daily experience with oppression, death, genocide, hypocrisy, robbery and rape yssys. I'm pulling out my tissue right now.
LMAO @ DeltaJ. And conservatives don't think that they are entitled to the basic tenets as laid out in the pledge? I would expect that they do and they should. I would even say that they feel that its their responsibilty to take advantage of these entitlements. This topic is about removing certain phrases from the pledge, which is what I stated an opinion on.
You don't even have a clue...... rotflmao
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
I am thinking after the court remove "one nation Under God" from the pledge. Black men and women should then petition the court to remove "and justice for all" from the pledge. I believe it will be quite simple to lay the case out that the Black man and woman have not received justice from this nation's justice system and therefore "and justice for all" should be removed until this nation has a history of justice being administered equally in this country.

Who with me on this?


Just re-posting the subject, in case someone on the board forgot what it was.
quote:
What sets this country apart from others is the ideals set in place and the pursuit of those ideals. The failure to reach them doesn't make this country any different from any other. It only proves what is self-evident- that the project is run by humans and is therefore fallible and incapable of perfection.

But I think the goals of liberty and justice are noble ones that few societies have the courage and stanima to set for themselves. For that matter, few societies have come as close to the idea as this country, despite all of its failings.



There is no active pursuit of these ideals, if we are going to be honest then an acknowledgement that this country is moving further away from these ideals is in order. One can always use Comparative Greatness to prove how great their country is. The U.S. maybe better in certain respects than most other countries but those countries are better places to live and prosper than other nations around the world as well. So to get a full understanding of what makes a country great we should not compare this country to that country. The greatness of a country should be measured by things like how it treats its citizens, how justice is administered in that country etc, and this is where America comes up short, I am not asking that America be perfect, I am asking that America stop lying an admit there is something wrong. If there were no other nations to compare America too, only then would we get the full scope of how bad things are here, however since we can always point to a place worse than this one, it is easy to talk about the greatness of America.
utterly ridiculous faheem.

The greatness of a country should be measured by things like how it treats its citizens

Measured how? On which scale? WHO is doing the measuring? How can we know whether the treatment is either good or bad without comparisons?

and this is where America comes up short

Huh? Wait, I thought you said no comparisons? Comes up "short" with respect to what? How do you know it comes up 'short' unless you are comparing it to something 'better'? Shorter than what?

How do we know we are already not at the level of 'perfection' in the world of human affairs and nations? It could very well be that it doesn't get any better. And with faheem's little spin here, there'd be no ideal to 'compare' this treatment to, since we are not allowed to 'compare' the relative merits of any nation to any other.

So, there would be no way we could claim anything comes up 'short', as we'd have no reference point or scale on which to be measuring the performance of one nation against any other.

So, hope everyone is happy, cause this is perfection.

They say Alaska has warm summers. They say Africa has warm summers. In faheem's world, both have the 'same' temperature.

..
Comparisons will have to be made in order to understand that people are not being treated equally; however my point is telling Black folk that America is a better place to live does not change the fact that justice in America is not our reality. This is why comparing America as a whole to other nations does not address what is inherently wrong with America. Surely as I said earlier, America is better than many other nations but when we look inside America and compare how some of its citizens are treated in comparison to other citizens, we will see that America when measured on its own merits is not that great at all in the eyes of those who are not treated justly in America.
So you are contented to believe that american justice is no better than say saddam's justice was, right?

Do you believe that we in america have it no better than say those who fought south african apartheid had it? How about during the slave trade, would you say we are not treated any more justly today as black folks were then? What about the South of the 1950's, you think the justice system is exactly the same as it was there at that time?

So, we are treated so unjustly that OJ gets away with murder? Sorry, nothing is perfect, but you are sounding hysterical now.

Its BS friend.
America's Justice is and was better than Saddams justice, However I am not comparing America's justice to other nation's justice, I am comparing America's administering of justice internally between its citizens. Do you understand that? Stay right here in this country; don't worry about how other people are being treated. Compare how people are treated here. America should be able to stand on its on merits and not have to reference an oppressive nation in order to look just.
America's Justice is and was better than Saddams justice, However I am not comparing America's justice to other nation's justice

uh uh uh, no comparisons, remember?

Stay right here in this country; don't worry about how other people are being treated

I think I did stay. You better read my post again.

Lets try talking in something other than hypotheticals. Can you demonstrate how badly you yourself have been treated by the 'justice' system. For example. how many crimes have you been arrested for and convicted of that you were totally innocent of committing?

And since you've spent time there, being a black man, did you know that everyone who is in prison today is innocent, not just black folks! I kid you not, just ask anyone doing time whether they did the crime, and they will ALL say they are innocent. Damn shame.
I don't know if you are playing dumb or if you are actually dumb. I am sure everyone else reading this understands what I am saying but you seem incapable of understanding it. I will make it plain for you once again. You and your ilk like to speak of America's greatness in comparison to other nations, I speak of America's wickedness in how it treats its citizens differently. That is very simple, even a fool like you can understand it.

As far as my own personal experience, I have not been convicted of any crime, but growing up I was definitely arrested and taking down to the station for crimes I had no part in committing, Police have tried to convince me to be in a line up when I knew there was no reason for me to be in a line up, I have been stopped by the police several times while driving and not once given a ticket, barring the time I was rushing home and was ticketed for driving in the carpool lane. I am very familiar with the trappings of this justice system and I do not have to experience being convicted unjustly to understand it.
Oh yes, America's 'wickedness'. How silly of me to have forgotten all that 'wickedness'.


I have been stopped by the police several times while driving and not once given a ticket


WOW! Now THAT is truly OUTRAGEOUS AND RACIST!! To think they would stop you and then have the utter GALL to DENY you of your right to TRAFFIC TICKETS!!! Thats about the biggest injustice I've ever heard of in my life! Imagine, such wickedness that they didn't think you worth of ticketing. I can't believe that, I am utterly disgusted and want REVENGE!

Now I'm fired up man, We need to unite now brother! I'm gonna BURN something man, cause this cannot be allowed to continue, this senseless denial of traffic ticketing to black folks, when we all know damn well the police could use that money. Thats it, I'd have enough!

KILL the PIGS! STOP the ticket genocide! More Ticket rights NOW!! FREE the SPEEDERS! Damn George Bush, hording all the damn ticket-paper I bet, probably printing more money with it.

(damn I'm pity these fools who have never left your mom's womb yet)


Ok brother, I'm done. You win. You live in the worst possible country during the worst possible period that has ever existed brother. My condolescences and all that.....
How outrageous the police had the nerve to stop you at all! Those damn police. You'd think that was part of their job or something!

Damn, thats really tough. What oppression you are suffering. I mean, I know you are a perfect driver, never made a mistake in your life. The racist nerve of those police to even LOOK at your car! We need to start riding buses or something man.

Know what I'm going to do after hearing this harsh and dreadful story of your oppression? I'm going to go out right now, hop in my car and drive 200 mphs and NOT STOP for no damn police, thats what I'm gonna do! That'll show em! Who are they to try and control traffic and keep people honest. Damn them, next they'll be saying we need CAR INSURANCE or something like that just to deny us all the chance to drive. Those bastards.

Happy yet?
Another fine example of Sgt's, I mean Delta's being contrary. There is no way he can miss your point Faheem. There is no way any honest person can say that administration of justice in this country is even close to being fair and unbiased.

And, to cut you off before you start, I'm not speaking of the racial disparities that have been noted time and time again, I'm speaking of the disparity in justice between the rich and poor. Can you even open your mouth to argue that there is no income-based difference in justice?

But back to racial injustice ...

I can cite a clear example of DWB. I was pulled over as I pulled up next to one of Tucson's finest at a traffic light. He looked over, said something to his partner, and then signaled for me to pull over. The reason: I had a hat (a baseball cap) visible from the rear window. The officer explained that at night it might obstruct my rear vision. (It was 2:00pm) I then was questioned for 10 minutes about my relationship to the White woman (a co-worker) in the passenger seat. Mind you, the officer didn't ask her a word.

Now, can you open your mouth to say that had I been White, the officer would have even given me a second thought, let alone pull me over?

Guess what Sgt., I mean Delta, racism actually does explain some of the injustice in this country.
Oh yes, what a horrible example of racism that was. So tough, I dont' know how you could possible cope or continue on after that. Maybe you should go on 60 minutes or something, wear your hat. Did you know too, that every single black person sitting in prison today is INNOCENT? Don't believe me? Just ask them!

tick tick tick tick........
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
There is no active pursuit of these ideals, if we are going to be honest then an acknowledgement that this country is moving further away from these ideals is in order.


I agree with you, but probably on different issues. This country is moving away for liberty and justice by means of a bloated welfare state where someone can effectively vote away the fruits of another person's labor. We have drug wars that are imprisoning hundreds of thousands of low-level non-violent offenders. In this ways, and many others, the country is moving away from the ideals of individual liberty and justice.

quote:
One can always use Comparative Greatness to prove how great their country is. The U.S. maybe better in certain respects than most other countries but those countries are better places to live and prosper than other nations around the world as well.


True. However, I'm just pointing out that we have to remember that we continuously compare America to something that does not exist. If we use this as an ultimate gauge, we'd conclude that every society sucks. This gets us nowhere.

quote:
The greatness of a country should be measured by things like how it treats its citizens, how justice is administered in that country etc, and this is where America comes up short, I am not asking that America be perfect, I am asking that America stop lying an admit there is something wrong.


No one is saying that there's "nothing wrong." There's always something wrong. On the other hand, justice in this country- as flawed as it is- has been an improvement on history rather than a set-back. The same goes for how it treats its citizens. A nation doesn't become the richest, most sought after country for not treating its citizens at least comparatively well. Today, this goes for black people as well, which is why we see so many people from Africa and the Caribbean trying to come here.

Realize that I'm not saying there isn't much to be improved on. There surely is much that needs to be improved. I just don't see how taking something out of the pledge really accomplishes anything.
This comment is off topic, but must be made...

Sgt., I mean Delta, if you are truly Black, as you proclaim, I sincerely hope you never have an experience that, no matter how hard you try-and I'm positive you will-you cannot rationalization the racist act. The pyschic damage will crush your spirit. You will be forced to see America as she is great, but never-the-less racist.

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