CARNIVAL IS THE ANCIENT 'AFRICAN-KHEMET NEW YEAR"

It was also the ancient Roman new year, so our celebrating it may not be only African. It depends on why WE do.

quote:

Originally posted by Melesi:
It was also the ancient Roman new year, so our celebrating it may not be only African. It depends on why WE do.

Rome's knowledge was based on Greece. Greece stole/borrowed all of it's knowledge from KMT(Egypt/Africa) and perverted/twisted much of it because they were only students...hence X-tianity. The greek scholars/philosophers were actually KMTic school drop outs, they did not complete the 42 years of training and get baptized into the knowledge systems. Athens was originally a Kemetic/Kamau colony.

"All of its knowledge"? I think not. For a time Greece was the only "logical" culture on the face of the earth. No other society thought as Greece did, and that includes Egypt, which means that Greece did not "steal" that from Egypt.

And let's say that Greece did steal its knowledge from Egypt? So what happened to

A. The evidences of Egypt's ever thinking as Greece did? There are none in all the manuscripts that we have fround in Egypt.

B. The evidences that Egypt continued to think as it would have had to for Greece to have had anything to "steal"? When you steal an idea or a science from another, that brain does not cease to function. It continues to do what it had been doing. If Greece had stolen its thoughts from Egypt, Egypt woud have continued to htink as it had done prior to the stealing. There's no evidence that it did.

Art, yes. Greece did take that, and some ideas in geometry like the 3-4-5 rule of right triangles. But Egypt kept using both the art and the right-triangle rule even after the Greeks decided that they were worth copying.

Which means that, when intellectual property is stolen, the minds that thought up the stolen knowledge keep on thinking and inventing.

Egypt did not.

quote:

Originally posted by Melesi:
"All of its knowledge"? I think not. For a time Greece was the only "logical" culture on the face of the earth. No other society thought as Greece did, and that includes Egypt, which means that Greece did not "steal" that from Egypt.

And let's say that Greece did steal its knowledge from Egypt? So what happened to

A. The evidences of Egypt's ever thinking as Greece did? There are none in all the manuscripts that we have fround in Egypt.

B. The evidences that Egypt continued to think as it would have had to for Greece to have had anything to "steal"? When you steal an idea or a science from another, that brain does not cease to function. It continues to do what it had been doing. If Greece had stolen its thoughts from Egypt, Egypt woud have continued to htink as it had done prior to the stealing. There's no evidence that it did.

Art, yes. Greece did take that, and some ideas in geometry like the 3-4-5 rule of right triangles. But Egypt kept using both the art and the right-triangle rule even after the Greeks decided that they were worth copying.

Which means that, when intellectual property is stolen, the minds that thought up the stolen knowledge keep on thinking and inventing.

Egypt did not.

Wow,

Thanks for letting me know that you have been completely duped by the Eurocentric White supremacist educational system and their(the enemies) version of his-story.

Yah, Greeks the ONLY rational culture...lol, now that's crazy!!!

You really need to read more African authors.

KMT was invaded and X-tianity guaranteed that it's temples and religion/philosophies were sacked and burned(after heavily being plagerized). Remember how the Moore's had to bring 'Greek' enlightenment to Europe spawning the end of the dark ages?

Greek society was based on a slave system. Those who built the pyramids graves have been found on the giza plateau... They were paid just like modern construction workers. The Greeks were living in caves while our ancestors had technologies and civilizations that these oppressors still don't understand.

The pyuramid age of Africa was the sign of a declining civilization, the best was long before that.

I suggest you pick up a Dr. Ben book just for starters.

oshun,

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Thanks for letting me know that you have been completely duped by the Eurocentric White supremacist educational system and their(the enemies) version of his-story
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Um, you're welcome? Come, oshun, this is not an answer. An answer would be to show that the Egyptians thought as the Greeks did only earlier. It would have to be so for there to be something Egyptian for the Greeks to steal. There's no evidence that the Egyptians had a logic that approached the Greeks. The Egyptians were not illogical, now, but they didn't have a systematized logic as Athens did. Nobody did until they started taking it from the Greeks.

Can you show a prior Egyptian system of logic that looked like the Greek system? Can you show an Egyptian Aristotle? This was long before the Christians existed, so you can't blame them for the presence of philosophical logic in Greece and the lack of it in Egypt.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Yah, Greeks the ONLY rational culture...lol, now that's crazy!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Perhaps, but we'll only know that if you show your evidence for that statement. I think you misunderstand: the Egyptians were in one sense "rational" certainly enough, but they did not have the system of logic that the Greeks had. Can you show that they did, that there was something like that in Egypt before the Greeks had it to buttress your claim that the Greeks "stole" it?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=
KMT was invaded and X-tianity guaranteed that it's temples and religion/philosophies were sacked and burned(after heavily being plagerized). Remember how the Moore's had to bring 'Greek' enlightenment to Europe spawning the end of the dark ages?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The Moors were in Spain. The Renaissance started in Italy. The starting of the Renaissance was much more global than that, I realize, starting slowly in more than one place, but the fact that it started a little earlier in Italy than elsewhere would seem to indicate that the Moors were not the influence on it that you would like to believe. The Greeks were.

This takes nothing away from Egypt, a high and awe-inspirinig civiliation in its time, but it is not the source of all thinking, and certainly not the source of all Greek thinking. The Greeks were good enough to do much on their own, which is a hallmark of the human mind no matter where we find it.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Greek society was based on a slave system. Those who built the pyramids graves have been found on the giza plateau... They were paid just like modern construction workers. The Greeks were living in caves while our ancestors had technologies and civilizations that these oppressors still don't understand.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
So Egypt had no slaves? If not, doesn't this militate against your claim that the Greeks stole everything they had from Egypt?

And while we may not always know exactly how the ancients did some things, we have a pretty good idea, and it's just not true that Egypt had "technologies that these oppressors still don't understand."

Technologies like what, exactly?

Melesi,

I'm assuming you don't venture to the 'black' section in the book store.

Yes, I do, but I also notice that blackness is no guarantee against ridiculousness. Even in the "black" section one must be discerning.

Translation: Don't "you people" know that nothing in africa matches the angelic height europe reached? How could anything of value to europe (head bowed) have originated in africa?

You translate badly.

Melesi,

Aristotle was educated in the Egyptian mystery system. The Greek 'greats' all gave credit in their own works to where and from whom they attained their knowledge from. In fact they legitimized themslelves by associating themselves with the Egyptians. White supremacist re-writes/editing of history likes to leave that part out of what they teach in the mis-education system. They have to leave out the African origins to justify exploiting oppressing the very people they learned everything from.

Like I said, you really need to pick up an African author every now and then, Dr. Ben lays all the proof out you will ever need oo this, I don't have the time or energy to reinvent the wheel....In fact, this argument you are giving is so old and tired I feel sorry for you. This subject matter is Afro-centric kindergarden.

Get these books, you really need to read them...

Black Man of the Nile and His Family & Africa: Mother of Western Civilization (African-American Heritage Series)by Yosef Ben-Jochannan(Dr. Ben)

You may also want to read STOLEN LEGACY.

George James began his book by informing us that the Egyptian Mystery System was the oldest in the world and was 'also a Secret Order, and membership was gained by initiation and a pledge to secrecy. The teaching was graded and delivered orally to the Neophyte; and under these circumstances of secrecy, the Egyptians developed secret systems of writing and teaching, and forbade their Initiates from writing what they had learn.' - p.1

Aristotle is still regarded as the greatest scientist of antiquity. The question thus beggared is how could Plato taught Aristotle what he didn't know himself?

The truth of the matter was that Aristotle, aided by Alexander the Destroyer (some called him the Great), secured the books from the Egyptian Royal Libraries and Temples. 'In spite however of such great intellectual treasure, the death of Aristotle marked the death of philosophy among the Greeks, who did not seem to possess the natural abilities to advance these sciences.' p. 3


http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/32/001.html

You've forgotten two important factors; the ancient Egyptian secretive guarded knowledge through the priesthood. The Europeans sacked, pillaged, and burned. African knowledge was translated into the Greek. Over 1400 [correct me if I'm wrong] multidisciplinary texts are attributed to Aristotle. Come on man! Was Aristotle this great & unique specimen of a genuis, who wrote on all these subjects?

Why were these Greek philosophers rejected, and condemned for their writings and beliefs? Let's put on our critical thinking caps. Greek society was not about to accept a foreign philosophy / knowledge.

quote:

Originally posted by Melesi:
You translate badly.

And you must be married to a white woman. I've seen you before, the type of negro who loves his master. In my home we see you with a picture of the queen of england on your wall, speaking highly of the "royals". Wearing wool suits from harrods in the rainy season, smelling like a dog.

I will just throw this into the mix. Comparativist religionists and anthropologists would suggest that most indigenous/archaic peoples have rituals, festivals, built around the seasons associated with the equinoxes and soltices. From indigenous cultures in Africa, Australia, and the Americas, these patterns have been observed well before intercultural contact. Folks like Levi-Strauss and Mauss would say that this is part of how human beings organize time and make meaning. Eliade in Myth of the Eternal Return: Cosmos and History makes a similar assertion.

So I guess I am wondering, what is the significane in priviledging carnival associated with Khemet as opposed to the probably numerous other equinox celebrations across Africa.

fagunwa,

Not one argument.

You are contributing nothing to this conversation. Calling people names shows only the shallowness of your thinking.

It's like the proverbial lawyer who, on opening a surprisingly slender case file he's been given, found the memo, "No case. Abuse the other lawyer."

oshun,

Please read what I wrote. I did not say that Greece got nothing from Egypt. Of course it did. The Greeks even said so, and that is still in the history of Greece. I first read that a long time ago in one of those huge Time-Life coffee-table picture books of Greece. So please do not say that whites "edit out" that information to keep it from everybody. I learned it from whites themselves.

Besides, that's not my point.

My point is twofold:

1. The Greeks were good enough thinkers to have come up with something on their own. Not everything that they did or said came from Egypt. Credit where credit is due. Archimedes was not Egyptian nor did he get the concept of infinity from Egypt. Egypt didn't have it.

2. The entire thesis of intellectual property being "stolen" and the stolen from being left bereft of anything intellectual is false. Intellectual property is not like a car or a TV. When a poem or art or scientific achievement is "stolen," the thief doesn't leave behind nothing. The brain that first made up the poem or art or science is still there, and so is the culture that it helped to shape.

In America we still have Microsoft even though China has pirated (stolen) millions of copies of the Windows operating system. We still have music being made even though Napster and others stole millions of copies of songs. Dan Brown ("The Da Vinci Code") apparently stole most of his work from another, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail," yet both men can still write books if they so choose. Corporate spying goes on all the time, yet we still have corporations churning out new products. Patents were not issued for most of our history, and theft of intellectual property went on for a long, long time, yet new inventions were made even so.

So the idea that Greece stole from Egypt and left nothing behind is ludicrous. It just doesn't work that way. If Greece "stole" from Egypt, what, did they come and take all the art away and kill all the artists and forbid the teaching of art in Egypt?

Um, no.

The same is true of geometry. The Egyptians had the 3-4-5 rule, but they just didn't do much with it. They didn't have the system of logic that cut ideas up into little bits, nor did they have the schools of geometry (like Euclid's and Pythagoras') that the Greeks did. That's why the Greeks progressed in those areas and Egypt did not--not because Greece "stole" this art from them (the art of geometry) but because Egypt didn't have the concomitant culture to analyze geometry from different angles. Nobody stole that from them. They just didn't have it.

As for Ben-Yochannan, I rather agree with Martin Bernal that Africa made many contributions to world civilization and culture, but that what he calls "Nilocentric" concepts ("Africa creates, Europe imitates") is just wrong. Afrocentrism makes many mistakes because Afrocentrists have been sloppy in their research and training. That's why they say things like Aristotle plundered the library at Alexandria for work he took credit for, when in fact the Alexandrian Library didn't even exist during his lifetime.

And Greek philosophy was far greater than Aristotle. One need only read the Presocratics and, beyond the other end of Aristotle's life, Lucretius or the Neoplatonists to see that Aristotle was not the be-all of Greek philosophy. What he wrote he certainly could have written. Bacon did. Archimedes was a certifiable genius. The (post-aristotelian) Stoics were a very important school of philosophy, as were the Cynics, the Hedonists, the Epicurians, and the Skeptics. Greece has its own justified pantheon of greats, and those who are fair will see that. We need not agree with them to see that they were important.

So was Egypt. How much mathematics and astronomy came out of Egypt? We still use Arabic names (out of such places as Egypt) for many of the stars, and we still use the Pharonic numbering system introduced by an Egyptian priest (Manetho) who wrote a very imporant history of Egypt--even though he wrote in Greek (were the Greeks important?)

The pyramids are a breath-taking work of both art and science, and no one will take that away from Egypt. But the Greeks have their own claim to admiration, too, and they didn't get it all from Egypt.

kresge,

That is really the point of my original post. Too many cultures had equinoctal celebrations.

Calendars have always been important to us. Alexander Marshack in "The
Roots of Civilization" shows evidence of paleolithic "calendar bones" or "calendar sticks" showing the phases of the moon from about 27,000 years ago, and the calendars that it seems every culture devised shows that "what time is it?" is a question everybody has always asked.

So why assume that Carnival or any other equinoctal celebration comes from Egypt instead of from humanity as a whole? It seems to me to be far more human and therefore universal to our race than this thread seems to wish to promote.

quote:

So the idea that Greece stole from Egypt and left nothing behind is ludicrous.

How so? I'm not Johnny Destiny, but I'd like to give a hypothetical. Let's say that the black man invented TRUTH. He shared it with his brethen, and they enjoyed the fruits of his labor. The Black man had no desire to profit from this invention, hence he has no desire to patent his invention. Along comes a white man, that covets this invention, that feels like this invention could be put to "better" use in a capitalist system. So he studies the blueprint, copies it, and patents it, and tells the world that he invented it; giving the black man no credit, but profiting from the invention. Not only that, he convinces the world that the black man is incapable of inventing anything. Stealing the invention, leaving NOTHING behind.

herustar,

An interesting point, but I think it falls short because of the concept of truth that it assumes.

How could the Black Man "invent" truth? How could the white man? Truth is, it isn't invented. We either conform to it or we don't.

In your example (Parable? Fable? It's more than a mere example) you seem to say that truth is a commodity, but even in its barest form isn't truth a perception of what is as it is? Seeing the world for real? Many cultures have done that without any input from Africa (depending, I suppose, on one's definition of Africa. Africans gave rise to the human race, but Africa is a concept a bit different from Africans. It's hard to pin down an "Africa" because like all human effects it changes) at all.

and it isn't as though no other culture has shared true things with other cultures. Even the white cultures have shown the rest of the world some true things that did not come out of Africa. It could be argued, I guess, that "true things" is not the same as "truth," which might be considered a way of seeing rather than a collection of facts, but there we would have to be careful in some areas of discussion because there are ways of seeing that do not quite agree but which work anyway, and I know of no culture that has a monopoly on the truth and doesn't contain some false in it as well. Even African.

According to your parable, one could conclude that you are saying that no one has ever come up with truth except Africa. Do you mean that?

quote:

According to your parable, one could conclude that you are saying that no one has ever come up with truth except Africa. Do you mean that?

To lay the sole claim to truth was not my purpose. Truth in the parable, represents the many inventions that blacks contributed to this earth. Truth represents our contributions to civilization. Contributions that originated from US but were stolen and patented by THEM.

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
You may also want to read STOLEN LEGACY. George James began his book by informing us that...

Discussions Involve Giving and Taking

Excuse me, Sister Oshun, and others, I apologize for interrupting your discussion; however, I want to ask Sister Oshun, is there a reason why you selectively choose to respond to some of your threads and not others? I've noticed that you have a tendency to post lengthy threads with seemingly no intentions of participating in a discussion. After a while, readers may mistakingly perceive this board to be an informative dumping ground of some sort rather than a forum that has been designed for the purposes of serious discussion. I realize that many of us have compressed work schedules. However, I think, just out of courteousy, if someone posts a topic, he or she should be prepared to respond to those who take the time to read and respond to their threads. After all, this is a discussion forum, not a dump and go site and people are less likely to respond to threads if they think the topic starter is merely interested in "teaching" others something rather than actively engaging in an exchange of information.

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
You may also want to read STOLEN LEGACY. George James began his book by informing us that...

Discussions Involve Giving and Taking

Excuse me, Sister Oshun, and others, I apologize for interrupting your discussion; however, I want to ask Sister Oshun, is there a reason why you selectively choose to respond to some of your threads and not others?.......

In Oshun's defense she herself has noted the lack of participation on her threads:

quote:

quote:

I also notice 50 responses to the xtian stiff and few for anything having to do with africa spirituality. Interesting.

Very interesting. I thought at first there was a lack of response because people don't really know much about African spirituality, so they didn't really have much to comment on, but what bothers me is the lack of curiosity!

You can't have a discussion without other willing participants.... Besides, I appreciate her posts.... I like to learn about a (strangely) under-represented religious point of view - "strangely" because it's African...

Herustar,

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To lay the sole claim to truth was not my purpose. Truth in the parable, represents the many inventions that blacks contributed to this earth. Truth represents our contributions to civilization. Contributions that originated from US but were stolen and patented by THEM.
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OK, I didn't think that you were saying that, but I wanted to make sure.

What inventions did you have in mind?

Some of the contributions are understandable, but I'm not sure that many of them were particularly helpful. While Egypt was without doubt a huge cultural influence on world civilation, the amount of black African influence on Egypt is quite debateable. Most of Egypt for most of its history was of a people from the north and east due to the long history of the "wild Nile," which precluded emigration from the south into what became Egypt. I know that this is still being debated, but from genetic studies most of Egypt's history was made by people who are like the people living there now.

Which means that we can't say that subEgyptian Africa had much influence on world civilization. Egypt, yes. The rest of Africa, probably not.

Which means that the influences of Egypt on the rest of the world may not have been made by people who were black. This includes inventions.

Was black Africa a hotbed of technology? That's not a facetious question, by the way. The New Stone Age started in the Fertile Crescent, we know that the Chalcolithic Age started in the Middle East and Egypt around 4000 BC and spread to India by 2000-1800 BC, but where is the evidence that it came up from the south to Egypt to go elsewhere? We have the Baghdad Battery (several examples of it) from 500 BC, but nothing like that south of Egypt. Egypt had paper and writing and bureaucracies amd petty corruption and all the benefits of a huge civilization that was the envy and wonder of the world,a dn everybody in the Mediterranean either envied or copied it.

But even though they copied it it kept on living and producing and making. It didn't disappear until it just died, which is what all empires and nations eventually do. There's no conspiracy in that, only nature. What it left behind is so staggering that why some people believe that they have to invent accomplishments it didn't make to add to its glory is beyond me. It looks like some try to bask in a false reflected glory. That's not necessary. Truth is always better, even if that truth is that Egypt wasn't as black as some want to make it out to have been.

And inventions. Egypt made inventions, but what inventions that were undeniably black African were there that Europe stole?

quote:

Originally posted by Rowe:

quote:

Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
You may also want to read STOLEN LEGACY. George James began his book by informing us that...

Discussions Involve Giving and Taking

Excuse me, Sister Oshun, and others, I apologize for interrupting your discussion; however, I want to ask Sister Oshun, is there a reason why you selectively choose to respond to some of your threads and not others? I've noticed that you have a tendency to post lengthy threads with seemingly no intentions of participating in a discussion. After a while, readers may mistakingly perceive this board to be an informative dumping ground of some sort rather than a forum that has been designed for the purposes of serious discussion. I realize that many of us have compressed work schedules. However, I think, just out of courteousy, if someone posts a topic, he or she should be prepared to respond to those who take the time to read and respond to their threads. After all, this is a discussion forum, not a dump and go site and people are less likely to respond to threads if they think the topic starter is merely interested in "teaching" others something rather than actively engaging in an exchange of information.

Rowe,

I get the feeling that I may have not responded to a thread that you were trying to have a discussion on. If so, and you were looking for some response from me, I apologize. But not only do I have a compressed work schedule, but I am in 3 political organizations, and going through a 90 day orientation in one of them, as well as practicing with my egbe, so my time is VERY short. So for now, I 'dump'. When I have time, I discuss what I find most interesting. If the discussion(s) doesn't interest me, I skip responding to it/them. You may have noticed that for a while I didn't post anything at all, that was because all I had time to do was read things ocassionally.

Priorities are priorities, and even though I miss having more thorough discussions online, I have obligations I must fulfill. If I find something I think others(or myself) find interesting I'm going to post it. IMO it's not about 'teaching'(that sounds arrogant) but about sharing information. If that erks you, I don't know what to tell you.

Melesi,

I gave you the information you requested in the books, get back to me after you've given them a glance. I can't really have a discussion with someone who has a lack of information on the subject. It is too time consuming and irritating.

quote:

Originally posted by Melesi:
fagunwa,

Not one argument.

You are contributing nothing to this conversation. Calling people names shows only the shallowness of your thinking.

It's like the proverbial lawyer who, on opening a surprisingly slender case file he's been given, found the memo, "No case. Abuse the other lawyer."

There can be no argument for you as you know nothing about these things, nor do you care to. You have a completely eurocentric mind which I despise. You never really respond intelligently when called on your dumb stuff, you just say the person "didn't read well enough". You represent everything I war against.

I call you names because that is what I think you are. I am not a lawyer. I abuse you because I despise you.

oshun,

You mean George James' 1954 book that says that Aristotle took from the library at Alexandria philosophical works that he copied and claimed as his own? That George James?

Would it make any difference to know that the city of Alexandria was a Greek city (there is that name, you know) founded after Alexander's conquest of Egypt? That Alexander was a student of Aristotle, and therefore Aristotle was older than he was--older enough that he died thirty years before the library was founded, and therefore he would have had a fairly hard time stealing books from it? He no doubt would have managed it, though, being the determined thief that he was while he was in Egypt.

If he was in Egypt at all. Do you know of any ancient texts that speak of Aristotle having been in Egypt? I don't.

You mean the George James who does not prove that the Egyptian Mystery System actually existed in Egypt? Who does not discuss the origins of the system?

Do you know when exactly the Egyptian Mystery
System was founded in Egypt? You might be surprised.

You mean the George James who assumes and repeats but doesn't prove, whose citations are sometimes too general to be of use, whose chronology is spotty and chequered and inconsistently applied, who wrote before genetic studies were performed on mummies, who equates without evidence sub-Saharan culture and Egyptian culture without even wondering who might have influenced who, who assumes that a people can never rise above or change beyond their foundation (else he would have admitted that Greek philosophy and culture developed in characteristically Greek ways), who is far more certain with far less research than present Egyptologists are with much more evidence at their disposal?

Too often he doesn't rely on modern research. Instead of contemporary scholars, for example, he quotes a British author, Godfrey Higgins, who couldn't have known much about the Egyptian writings, because he died in 1833, several years before the heiroglyphics were translated.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but didn't Higgins claim that the Rosetta Stone was a forgery? And James quotes him as an authority?

James says that no records have come down to us of the Egyptian Mystery System because it was a secret system. Yet that doesn't hinder him from presenting himself as an authority on it. He also does not admit that the argument from silence is not much of an argument, that lack of evidence may even mean that something that did not leave evidence may not have existed. Even the Eleusynian Mysterys of Greece, also very secret, left behind some evidence of their having existed. No, for James, lack of evidence is evidence that Aristotle and his contemporaries and followers suppressed the evidence of his having been in Egypt and found out about the Mystery System there. Even if Aristotle had been in Egypt, what are we to say of Plato, of before him Socrates, and before him the presocratics? If they were influenced by Egypt, James does not show it, nor does he address the lack of evidence that the Egyptians
were anywhere near Greece except perhaps maybe possibly it could be kind of on Minoan Crete. But the evidence is not enough. It could have been through trade or through a kind of emigrated Egyptian starets (Russian lay holy men).

The George James who, in chapter eight of the book that I have ("Stolen Lgacy," by the way) uses a coincidence to "prove" Egyptian primacy: Since Atom the sun god emanated eight other gods from himself, that proves that the Egyptian knew about the nine planets through the Nebular Hypothesis of Laplace. He then, on pages 146 and 147, says that, since Atom the god and atom the division of matter (not his term) are the same word, that proves that the concept comes from the Egyptians.

That George James? Yes, I'm familiar with him.

Now what?

Oshun I always look forward to reading your post.

This topic is especially important because it highlights the very truth that was changed by the Church.

January is not the beginning of the year, when everything is dead.

Spring is the beginning of the year when new plant life bursts from the ground.

April Fools' Day was created by simpleminded mankind to mock and ridicule those who continued to hold on to the correct mindset.

----

You are so correct--Afrika did not miss one single original thought/idea that now exists in the world-at-large. Greece and Roman are imitators to the n-degree

YOu give no explanation of why the Church might have wanted to change the start of the year.

In fact, the start to any year is arbitrary. Some cultures started their year in the spring. Fair enough--the plants are opening and it looks like a new year, all right. This seemed especially prevalent among those cultures that used a lunar calendar.


But some--like the Church adn, by the way, like ancient Egypt--started their year with the winter solstice, when the sun starts its apparent return north. Fair enough. The year is changing again and this might as well be the start of a calendar year. This new year seems prevalent among those cultures with a solar calendar.

Like Egypt.

So, Fine, you don't like a solar calendar because the world is "dead" in winter?

quote:

Originally posted by Melesi:
oshun,

[quote]Would it make any difference to know that the city of Alexandria was a Greek city (there is that name, you know) founded after Alexander's conquest of Egypt?

It was renamed for Alexander the horrible AFTER he invaded Egypt. What was the name of it before Alexander the barbarian entered the land of KMT and played dress up as pharoah?(noticed he liked to take on the Egyptian culture as his own because he admired and covetted it so.)

Read the other books I mentioned. It they will clown all of your Euro-centric outlook with facts, from this post and others. I don't want to and won't take the time to post info from books I read when I was 19 yrs old to someone who doesn't want to know anything out of the Eurocentric paradigm they cling so tightly too.

Come, Oshun, you can do better than that.

Your response was like the description some years back of those who, when accused of killing three men and a dog, would triumphantly produce the dog alive.

As you well know, Alexandria was built near an old fishing village called Rhakotis, a nondescript place with nothing to recommend it. Alexandria eventually grew to cover it, but Alexandria was built there, not because there was anything about the village worth preserving or imitating, but because it was near the water on a fine site for a port.

What you said was the same as if someone else reported that New York was built where it is because the Indians had such a high civilization that the Dutch just had to builld New amsterdam there and nowhere else. That's not right, and neither is the assertion that Alexander coveted Egyptian history and culture so that he simply needed to build a city near an old fishing village. He figured he needed a regional capital and this place was a good one for that, with its openness to transportation, its natural harbor, and the island of Pharos nearby to buid a long pier to and put a lighthouse on--which Egyptians had not done. He even had a Greek architect draw up the plans for the city, not an Egyptian one.

Now, how about the points I made about the book? Shall we add one more? Try this:

On page 31 of my copy James quotes Socrates in the Timaeus thus:

"We are told in the Timaeus of Plato, that aspirants for mystical wisdom visited Egypt for initiation and were told by the priests of Sais, "that you Greeks are but children" in the Secret Doctrine, but were admitted to information enabling them to promote their spiritual advancement."

But this is worse than disingenuous. I have read the Timaeus, and what James quotes is less than he should have. It was only enough to sound as though it supports his thesis, but it doesn't. It isn't even about any "Secret Doctrine." It is supposedly about history, not esoterics. The hearsay report was a legend about Solon, the fellow famous for his laws, hearing from an Egyptian priest about the multiple deluges and fires that have ravaged the earth, and how this resulted in the fires killing off people who live in the mountains so that the seashore and river dwellers (like the Egyptians who live along the Nile) live through those, and how the floods kill off the low-lying Greek city dwellers and preserve the mountinous herdsmen. In Egypt, of course, waters never come down from teh sky (said the priest--there are no rains in Egypt?) but always from below, so Egypt is saved from all the destruction the gods bring upon the earth because their water saves them from the fires, and apparently the floods never occur there because it never rains.

It's obviously a legend, a myth, based on an Egyptian misunderstanding and ignorance of Greek climate, developed to "explain" Egypt's longer history than Greece's.

But of course, James never mentions that.

The priest then goes on to tell Solon--we are told--about Atlantis, the large island just outside of the Strait of Gibralter, which tried to subjugate all of Europe and North Africa, and only Athens could defeat it. The priest praised Athens for its power and ability which no one else could match. Athens even liberated Egypt from Atlantis' power.

You can read the Timaeus for yourself. It's not long.

Yes, this sounds like a Socratic dialogue that shows forth Egypt as knowing all and having all, with Greece having nothing, doesn't it?

No wonder "Stolen Legacy" is not more widely read. It's a terrible book, not scholarly at all, more polemics than history.

You have no idea if I am Eurocentric or not. You haven't taken the time to reason and to think about the arguments we both make here. Don't just react, and don't be too impatient. Take the time to check out the facts. If I read "Stolen Legacy" (you were so certain that I had not read it) and find for good reason that it's a bad book, that's not my problem. I didn't write it. Nor have you refuted my objections to it. Don't just react, oshun. Discuss this and think about it. If you can prove me wrong, then I will change my mind. I've done that before, I will do it again. But I will only do it for good reason. Give me soem good reasons to do so.

quote:

YOu give no explanation of why the Church might have wanted to change the start of the year.

MY REply was to Oshun--whom I am sure--beyond a shadow of a doubt knows exactly what I am talking about.


Providing an explanation for the disceitfully plagarized religion called the Church is moot.

quote:

So, Fine, you don't like a solar calendar because the world is "dead" in winter?

...Melesi--you remind me of the ostrich that sticks its head in the sand but leaves its big fat azz exposed for everyone to see...!


I suggest you do some real serious research. Your lame attempt at attacking/disproving the facts that I or Oshun present to this forum shows --in fact-- your immature attempt at discernment!

And the facts that convince you of your position are...?

oh, yes: when did you see an ostrich "stick its head in the sand"?

quote:

Originally posted by Fine:

quote:

YOu give no explanation of why the Church might have wanted to change the start of the year.

MY REply was to Oshun--whom I am sure--beyond a shadow of a doubt knows exactly what I am talking about.


Providing an explanation for the disceitfully plagarized religion called the Church is moot.

quote:

So, Fine, you don't like a solar calendar because the world is "dead" in winter?

...Melesi--you remind me of the ostrich that sticks its head in the sand but leaves its big fat azz exposed for everyone to see...!


I suggest you do some real serious research. Your lame attempt at attacking/disproving the facts that I or Oshun present to this forum shows --in fact-- your immature attempt at discernment!

Fine,

You know what, I have realized, thanks to Rowe, that I have not recognized(officially) your posts, like I should have BEEN DOING. I think you are sooo much like the younger but wiser version of me. Stop trying to justify our humanity by the enemie's standards, he stole everything ANYWAY. We were, We are, and We shall be. Honestly, I know we spend so much time prooving ourselves. Stop doing that, and start to be ourselves...it is so easy...Well, for some of us.

BTW, Rowe, your avatar is beautiful.

hmmm...I wish I had more (ok anything) to contribute to this discussion... except to say I find it fascinating reading. Especially the concept of following the equinox and 'nature's' calendar instead of a set-in-cement numerical one.... Chip, chip, chip...

Yes Rowe's avatar is beautiful, isn't it...Oshun!

You say I remind you of a younger you. Geez,
I'm the oldest on the board at 54, right?

Or, [ah-hem--clearing throat] I will be on 3/15...!

Thanks though!!!

A solar calendar isn't "natural"?

"It's obviously a legend, a myth, based on an Egyptian misunderstanding and ignorance of Greek climate, developed to "explain" Egypt's longer history than Greece's."

I rest my case. This entity is really sick. I guarantee they are on some sort of medication.

There's only one of me, and I based my statement on the actual history.

Did you?