Maybe you should accept that people are commonly referred to based on an act they committ or even a proffesion they hold. A convict is called a convict because he has been convicted of a crime, a thief is called a thief because he or she steal from others, and men and women who entered this the U.S. illegally based on current law are refered to as illegals because they entered this country illegally. What is so difficult to understand about that.

It is not to say their person is defined by being in this country illegally but from the standpoint of immigration they are illegals and if my memory serve me right the only time and the only reason they are referred to as illegals is in regard to their immigration status in this country based on current law.

From a historical standpoint the European Caucasian is the real illegal on this land.

quote:

Originally posted by Faheem:
Maybe you should accept that people are commonly referred to based on an act they committ or even a proffesion they hold. A convict is called a convict because he has been convicted of a crime, a thief is called a thief because he or she steal from others, and men and women who entered this the U.S. illegally based on current law are refered to as illegals because they entered this country illegally. What is so difficult to understand about that.

It is not to say their person is defined by being in this country illegally but from the standpoint of immigration they are illegals and if my memory serve me right the only time and the only reason they are referred to as illegals is in regard to their immigration status in this country based on current law.

From a historical standpoint the European Caucasian is the real illegal on this land.

The sole purpose of the epithet "illegal" is to demonize and dehumanize people.

quote:

Originally posted by ricardomath:
The sole purpose of the epithet "illegal" is to demonize and dehumanize people.

This is simply not true, ricardomath.

Are Some Human Beings Illegal?

snip----------------------------------

As African Americans we ought to understand better than anybody how white supremacy works and how language, which frames the way we all think, is a potent tool of oppression, or of liberation.  To start with, we need to purge the phrase "illegal aliens" from our vocabulary.  Anybody who uses it within earshot ought to be challenged promptly and publicly, just like you would in a case of the unauthorized use of the N-word.

Aliens are from Jupiter.  White America defines people as "aliens" in order to justify treatment unfit for a member of the human family, just as our ancestors were once labeled "property," allowing "owners" to buy and sell us like cattle.  For those so unable to free their minds from the box of white racist legalism that they cannot part with the adjective "illegal," we should insist that they follow it with the correct noun that says what these folks really are.  Illegal persons.  Illegal people.  Illegal humans.

And if "illegal human" sounds ridiculous and evil, as it ought to in any civilized ear, it's only because white America's law on this score is evil and ridiculous.

snip--------------------------------------

http://www.blackcommentator.com/176/176_bruces_beat.html

'Illegal' is not an ephithet.

Even in the 'eyes of the beholder'.

I agree that it 'may not' be 'sensitive' to use it as a noun, but...

'Illegal' is a adjective which describes a condition results from acts against the law...civil or criminal.

And in this case, civil.

C'mon, ricardomath

'Against the law' is illegal no matter how you spin it.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by James Wesley Chester:
'Illegal' is not an ephithet.

Even in the 'eyes of the beholder'.

I agree that it 'may not' be 'sensitive' to use it as a noun, but...

'Illegal' is a adjective which describes a condition results from acts against the law...civil or criminal.

And in this case, civil.

C'mon, ricardomath

'Against the law' is illegal no matter how you spin it.

PEACE

Jim Chester

Exactly Jim Chester. To bring up another issue regarding this topic that I hadn't even considered until I was reading a newspaper this week.
As it has been noted there are people who cross the border committing acts against US law. What about the non-violent, first time drug offenders who go to jail, get out and want to make a living for their families. These American citizens lose the right to vote and essentially many of their rights as American citizens. Should these Americans, especially African-Americans, not get at least the same breaks that are being suggested for people who are not American citizens?
(There are people out there who are starting a grass roots movement for this. The issue has been on the table for at least 10+ years now)

What is your opinion of this?

Yemaya ... I think you are a mind reader!!

Just last night I was thinking about this exact same thing in regards to the "blanket amnesty" issue!

The numbers of Black people incarcertated for non-violent crimes relating to drug use is staggering!! And if I remember the story I was reading, it makes up for over 50% of the number of Black women who are serving time, and the length of the sentences for both are just totally on the ridiculous side, in some cases.
And some of those crimes, too, are designated as a felony.

Though I understand the immigration issue is especially sensitive to Ricardomath, I say we have our own fish to fry when it comes to "criminals getting a bad rap!

quote:

The sole purpose of the epithet "illegal" is to demonize and dehumanize people.

I agree. There is no other reason as to why someone would use this term to refer to people who are not citizens.

Use the term "undocumented" if there must be one.

I was out at the resturant Finger Lickin' on Bissonet and grabbed a newspaper while waiting on my meal. That's where I read this article about this issue. Once you put it in that perspective, it does seem grossly unfair. People are losing their citizenship everyday, but people can come into the country illegally and the red carpet is rolled out for them?? Obviously, politicians are looking for votes and corporations are looking for cheap labor.

quote:

Originally posted by Yemaya:
Obviously, politicians are looking for votes and corporations are looking for cheap labor.

I agree. But worse, this solution allows them to get cheap labor and votes, while simultaneously putting as many Black folks in prison as possible... denying them both income for their families and voting rights in their communities.

quote:

Originally posted by Black Viking:

quote:

Originally posted by Yemaya:
Obviously, politicians are looking for votes and corporations are looking for cheap labor.

I agree. But worse, this solution allows them to get cheap labor and votes, while simultaneously putting as many Black folks in prison as possible... denying them both income for their families and voting rights in their communities.

True, but this isn't the fault of the immigrants.

quote:

Originally posted by Shango67:

quote:

The sole purpose of the epithet "illegal" is to demonize and dehumanize people.

I agree. There is no other reason as to why someone would use this term to refer to people who are not citizens.

Use the term "undocumented" if there must be one.

I agree. By the same logic that people use to call Hispanic immigrants "illegal", we can also call European-Americans (White people) "illegal".

quote:

Originally posted by ricardomath:


No human being is illegal.

People ought to be able to make their points without the use of offensive epithets. I really don't think that this is too much to ask.

You're right; using the word "illegal" to describe illegal aliens is extremely offensive to their psyche and human dignity. I propose we ere on the side of political correctness on these boards, lest we offend other groups. To wit, illegal aliens are now "unprocessed and undocumented persons who are in this country without permission", burglars are "undocumented guests", thieves are "undocumented auctioneers", and drug dealers are "undocumented pharmacists". Now, don't we all feel better in knowing that we've spared the feelings of our fellow Man by obfuscting reality with polite euphemisms?

quote:

Originally posted by ricardomath:


No human being is illegal.

People ought to be able to make their points without the use of offensive epithets. I really don't think that this is too much to ask.

quote:

You who are so-called illegal aliens must know that no human being is "illegal". That is a contradiction in terms. Human beings can be beautiful or more beautiful, they can be fat or skinny, they can be right or wrong, but illegal? How can a human being be illegal?

Elie Wiesel

I could not agree with these sentiments any more strongly. No human being is illegal. Black folk should be the last to view the law as some kind of absolute. As I said in another thread, it was the law that said that we were not fully human, that we had no rights that a white person should respect, that could take away your access to the ballot. That is the reality. The law is arbitrary.

Moreover, this has nothing to do with being or not being politically correct. It is more than semantics. It is rather about discursive power. If we mindlessly parrot the discourse of the oppressors, then we are no better than they are.

well what about minority, disadvantaged, underserved, decendents of slaves, poor?

Moreover, this has nothing to do with being or not being politically correct. It is more than semantics. It is rather about discursive power. If we mindlessly parrot the discourse of the oppressors, then we are no better than they are.---kresge

Wow!!!

Now that...is rationalizatkon.

'Illegal' isn't simply non-legal, it is 'discursive power'.

Now there's a term.

(1)proceeding coherently from topic to topic; (2) marked by analytical reasoning...

But yet...not about political correctness????

Like the person driving without a license is an 'undocumented driver'.

Hmmm.

PEACE

Jim Chester

quote:

Originally posted by Yemaya:

To bring up another issue regarding this topic that I hadn't even considered until I was reading a newspaper this week.
As it has been noted there are people who cross the border committing acts against US law. What about the non-violent, first time drug offenders who go to jail, get out and want to make a living for their families. These American citizens lose the right to vote and essentially many of their rights as American citizens. Should these Americans, especially African-Americans, not get at least the same breaks that are being suggested for people who are not American citizens?
(There are people out there who are starting a grass roots movement for this. The issue has been on the table for at least 10+ years now)

We have had several threads in which the issue of disenfranchisement has come
up. Here are a few.

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602.../87370593/r/14070793

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602.../48070354/r/67470554

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602.../87870227/r/21170427

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602.../68970048/r/68570348

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...1089711/r/7461010811

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/4031013803/p/1

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...1051051/r/4701051151

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...1067451/r/2651067451

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...1045561/r/5371045561

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/791602...1097543/r/8851029543

quote:

What is your opinion of this?

My opinion is that the disenfranchisement of US citizens is too important an issue to simply be used as some sort of counterpoint to the protests and demands of others in our society for their rights.

In the state of Florida, the average black male adult has, to the nearest fifth, 3/5's of a vote. If this country had universal sufferage for adult US citizens, the 2000 election would not have been close enough to steal, and the country (and the rest of the world) could have been spared the entire Bush Presidency.

Human Rights Watch estimates that 40% of the next generation of black men nationwide (ie: 2/5's) will be disenfranchised for life, again to leave the average black man nationwide with 3/5's of a vote.

International observers who monitored the 2004 election have reported that US elections fall short of international standards, due to felony disenfranchisement laws.

Just as immigrants have reciently honored the human rights and civil rights struggles of the past, in claiming inspiration from MLK and the black civil rights struggle, from Cesar Chavez and the migrant workers movement, perhaps we as US citizens need to draw inspiration and strength from the recient protests of immigrants.

What is needed is action.

I think that it may be time to organize a Vote-in. No more elections should be held without a strong demand for the right to vote being felt at every polling place in the nation. People demanding to be counted. Polling places nationwide blocked by the bodies of people (and their supporters) demanding the right to cast their vote.

Just ideas, but I think that we need to be bold and creative.

If the government refuses to count the votes of all of its citizens, then perhaps alternative polling places should be set up, international observers and monitors invited, and votes counted in a transparent, open, and auditable process, open to the watchful eyes of the national and international media, with the results presented to the government with demands for their inclusion in the official totals. If enough people were to cast their votes in these alternative polling places instead of the official polling places, then the illigitimacy of the official totals would be obvious to everybody.

No more business as usual, no more phoney elections as usual, until the right to vote has been won.

Before one can vote, one must find a voting machine that tallies the vote correctly for EVERYBODY that votes. Right now, there seems to be a major problem with that.

As far as epithets go, there's about 2 zillion more that can be dropped along with "illegal". Now that "dehumanization" thingy, that's what happens everytime they go to W-A-R. The epithets fly like no one's bizness then!!!!! Oh yeah!!!!! Let's start with "Japs", "Krauts"...........and the beat goes on and on!!!!!!!!! Just pure I-N-S-A-N-I-T-Y!!!!!!! and D-E-B-A-U-C-H-E-R-Y!!!!!!!!!! and S-L-A-U-G-H-T-E-R-I-N-G!!!!!!! and I-N-C-I-N-E-R-A-T-I-N-G!!!!!!!! Ain't live grand if ya can live it?????? in P-E-A-C-E???? Now where might that be????????????? N-O-W-H-E-R-E!!!!!!!

lol

'Illegals is the right term to use for those who think the rules don't apply to them.

This new so called PC agenda has some thinking, no one is responsiable to follow the rules.

Lets say it together?

The rules of law do apply to you, the illegals, drug takers, murder's, thugs et et et.

There are many definitions the refer to illegal and when your talking about government that is simply what any person is coming to this country or trying to live in any other country.Being an illegal applies to any other country if you were not a born citizen I know we all went to school so stop acting like it.In reALITY ALL BLACK FOLKS OF THIS COUNTRY NEED TO CLAIM INDIGENOUS STATUS buty that topic is to deep for some broad minds to understand.so for real get over it illegals are what they are if you don't think you wouldn't be your out your rabbit ass mind..no more discussion.

quote:

Originally posted by LEE SLAUGHTR:
There are many definitions the refer to illegal and when your talking about government that is simply what any person is coming to this country or trying to live in any other country.Being an illegal applies to any other country if you were not a born citizen I know we all went to school so stop acting like it.In reALITY ALL BLACK FOLKS OF THIS COUNTRY NEED TO CLAIM INDIGENOUS STATUS buty that topic is to deep for some broad minds to understand.so for real get over it illegals are what they are if you don't think you wouldn't be your out your rabbit ass mind..no more discussion.

???