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Bush Submitting Brief Against Univ. of Michigan's AA Policy

Are you surprised at this? I have read that Bush feels that he has generated enough political capital with African Americans and progressives because he came out against Trent Lott's comments that he won't be hurt by this. Is he correct?

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Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.

© MBM

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Hello Mr. MBM,

Should it be proven by the Bush Administration that Affirmative Action is un-Constitutional in the U.S. Supreme Court, the days of Affirmative Action will be numbered.

By Article VI of the U.S. Constitution, the Constitution is the Supreme Law of the United States of America. By Article III of the U.S. Constitution, the U.S. Supreme Court is the highest court in the United States of America. In the event Affirmative Action is declared un-Constitutional, Affirmative Action, will not be enforced, no matter how many people detest the decision, no matter how many people march in protest.

Here, within the State of California, popular vote, and the California Supreme Court have already ruled AA, as being un-Constitutional. In California, Proposition 209 passed soundly with little opposition, which for all practical purposes eliminates AA in California, with regard to any government agency.

In essence Prop 209, as voted into California Law is as follows:

"Proposition 209: Text of Proposed Law

This initiative measure is submitted to the people in accordance with the provisions of Article II, Section 8 of the Constitution.

This initiative measure expressly amends the Constitution by adding a section thereto; therefore, new provisions proposed to be added are printed in italic type to indicate that they are new.

PROPOSED AMENDMENT TO ARTICLE I

Section 31 is added to Article I of the California Constitution as follows:

SEC. 31. (a) The state shall not discriminate against, or grant preferential treatment to, any individual or group on the basis of race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.
(b) This section shall apply only to action taken after the section's effective date.
(c) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as prohibiting bona fide qualifications based on sex which are reasonably necessary to the normal operation of public employment, public education, or public contracting.
(d) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as invalidating any court order or consent decree which is in force as of the effective date of this section.
(e) Nothing in this section shall be interpreted as prohibiting action which must be taken to establish or maintain eligibility for any federal program, where ineligibility would result in a loss of federal funds to the state.
(f) For the purposes of this section, ''state" shall include, but not necessarily be limited to, the state itself, any city, county, city and county, public university system, including the University of California, community college district, school district, special district, or any other political subdivision or governmental instrumentality of or within the state.
(g) The remedies available for violations of this section shall be the same, regardless of the injured party's race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin, as are otherwise available for violations of then-existing California antidiscrimination law.
(h) This section shall be self-executing. If any part or parts of this section are found to be in conflict with federal law or the United States Constitution, the section shall be implemented to the maximum extent that federal law and the United States Constitution permit. Any provision held invalid shall be severable from the remaining portions of this section."

From the looks of it, the same will be applied on the Federal level, making AA un-Constitutional in every State of the Union, that is in the event the U.S. Supreme Court rules in favor of the Bush Administration.

The Bush Administration, has a very good argument. Indeed, AA as it has been practiced, is not fair to all who qualify for it, without regard to ethnicity, gender, economic status, physical disability, physical appearance, age, sexual preference, political affiliation, religious belief, etc. A strong possibility exists that AA will be eliminated.

Anyone who expects to get through the door of acceptance will just have to be very proficient in their ability to achieve. True competency is not bound by ethnicity, gender, economic status, physical disability, physical appearance, age, sexual preference, political affiliation, religious belief or not, etc.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on January 15, 2003 at 10:58 PM.]
Aside from AA, there are proven incidents in cases of equity, involving very serious U.S. Constitutional premises which will bring U.S. citizens of Black American heritage into the mainstream. The future of Black people rest with the legal community, the elected officials, and the community of Black America's ability to exercise their U.S. Constitutional rights to insure mandated U.S. Constitutional protections to those of Black America whose U.S. citizenship rights have been illegally, and/or unwarranted disparaged.

As long as proven incidents such a Los Angeles County Superior Court case #895188, "Theft by Court", other very serious violations, which are heavily weighted in favor of individual U.S. citizens of Black American heritage are ignored by the so-called educated class of Black America, as it pertains to attorneys, elected officials, journalists, radio station personalities, television reporters, business persons, etc., the position of every U.S. citizen of Black American heritage will be reduced to that of much, much, much less than U.S. citizenship status.

Unfortunately, it is not in Caucasian America's, Hispanic America's, Korean America's, etc., best interest to step up to the plate to protect the U.S. Constitutional rights of the truly innocent of Black America whose U.S. citizenship rights have been unwarrantedly, and illegally violated by agents and officials of government. This is especially the case where Black people who have been seriously violated by the atrocities of government stand to gain should mandated by law U.S. Constitutionally guaranteed protections be executed and enforced.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on January 16, 2003 at 05:42 AM.]
I am truly dismayed by Bush submitting a brief against U of M on this issue. I do not know what his purpose in doing this might be. And to go public with this on the anniversary of MLK's birth?

As a faculty member at a small liberal arts college in Michigan who has aggressively pushed our institution to increase the divesity not only among students, but also faculty and staff, I am very worried. While in theory as a private institution, the case against U of M may have little or no direct correlation, it nevertheless establish a climate which only strengthens resistance among those trustees, administrators, and faculty who see no need for diversity at the college.

With respect to the impact of Bush's position on the African American community, I can not say. As for me, this brief in concert with his push for war and tax breaks for the rich has stilled my resolve to aggressively work for the demise of this administration.
I am curious to see how it all works out WHEN Affirmative Action is abolished. Although some may not like what the president has to say, you can't really argue against the fact that he is right. But, while he is tearing down AA he needs to divise a plan that will improve the difference in the quality of public elementary and high school education among races. Being some one who was educated in a majority black and hispanic inner-city district, then a majority white suburban school district I now there is a big difference in the quality between both.
I want to see how plans such as New York City Mayor Bloomberg's plan to create a uniform curriculum for all city students works out http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nyskul163090724jan16,0,1257933.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dspan%2Dheadlines . If we can be assured that all students receive the same education then Affirmative Action for university admission should not be neccasary.
quote:
Originally posted by obvious_1:
Although some may not like what the president has to say, you can't really argue against the fact that he is right.


i can very easily argue with him. we live in a country that has been based on white supremacy and the subjugation of anyone not white. for hundreds of years we weren't even considered to be human beings, much less citizens. in the last 20 or 30 years the u.s. has initiated a half-assed (at best) effort to address and redress its racist past. do you honestly think that equal opportunity is available to everyone in this country now? after our racist past, exactly when and how did we become color-blind?

charles barkley said it best on CNN yesterday when he asked " do you really think that white america doesn't get a fair shake in this country?"

please! Roll Eyes

the really funny thing about all of this is that the president himself was a huge beneficiary of affirmative action. without the kind of affirmative action that creates preferences for the rich alumni of a university there is NO WAY that an average student like george gets into yale and harvard. furthermore how about the affirmative action in our society that gives him a pass on his background - being arrested 3 times (that we know of), being an alcoholic and cocaine abuser yet still being able to be elected president? Roll Eyes
quote:
i can very easily argue with him. we live in a country that has been based on white supremacy and the subjugation of anyone not white. for hundreds of years we weren't even considered to be human beings, much less citizens.

You are dwelling on a past that no longer exist. Weren't the laws you speak of removed? We are now citizens and are entitled to anything a white person can get. Can you name one thing non-whites are not entitled to?
quote:
in the last 20 or 30 years the u.s. has initiated a half-assed (at best) effort to address and redress its racist past. do you honestly think that equal opportunity is available to everyone in this country now? after our racist past, exactly when and how did we become color-blind?

The things that happened after the Civil Rights Movement of the sixties should not of taken place. The Civil Rights Movement ended the laws that treated non-whites as subordinates and subjected them to mistreatment. I think that race-based programs went against what the movement stood for. It was never meant to create favoritism for non-whites we wanted to be treated as their equal. After Jim Crow laws were abolished Black people should of been left to there own devices to lift themselves up even if it meant that we should suffer a little more while getting used to the changes. Kind of like slave getting used to providing there own food and shelter after they were emancipated. I don't think we needed a crutch (race based programs) to lift ourselves up. We only needed the unfair weight taken off of our backs. We are a strong and determined group of people who would of worked our way up and create our own economy and businesses instead of depending on white people to give us scraps from their table.
quote:
the really funny thing about all of this is that the president himself was a huge beneficiary of affirmative action. without the kind of affirmative action that creates preferences for the rich alumni of a university there is NO WAY that an average student like george gets into yale and harvard. furthermore how about the affirmative action in our society that gives him a pass on his background - being arrested 3 times (that we know of), being an alcoholic and cocaine abuser yet still being able to be elected president?

So you feel benefits for the rich is wrong, but based on race it is ok?
The University of Michigan admissions' criteria with associated points


ADMISSIONS CRITERIA

At the University of Michigan, minority undergraduate applicants to the College of Literature, Science and the Arts receive a 20-point bonus on the basis of race out of a 150-point system, which takes into consideration other criteria, including academics. Scholarship athletes, for example, get 20 points. Race is covered in a category called "other factors." The point system includes:


Geography
10 points - Michigan resident
6 points - Underrepresented Michigan county
2 points - Underrepresented state

Alumni
4 points - "Legacy" (parents, step-parents)
1 point - Other (grandparents, siblings, spouses)

Essay
1 point - Outstanding essay (since 1999, 3 points)

Personal achievement
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Leadership and service
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Miscellaneous
20 points - Socio-economic disadvantage
20 points - Underrepresented racial-ethnic minority identification or education
5 points - Men in nursing
20 points - Scholarship athlete
20 points - Provost's discretion

Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by obvious_1:
You are dwelling on a past that no longer exist. Weren't the laws you speak of removed?


so are you saying that because racist laws were removed that racism no longer exists? perhaps i'm not understanding you.

quote:
We are now citizens and are entitled to anything a white person can get. Can you name one thing non-whites are not entitled to?


a cab.

quote:
The Civil Rights Movement ended the laws that treated non-whites as subordinates and subjected them to mistreatment.


ended? on what planet?

quote:
It was never meant to create favoritism for non-whites we wanted to be treated as their equal.


you obviously aren't black and have never experienced racism and discrimination. let me, respectfully, suggest that just because you've never paid attention to it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

quote:
I don't think we needed a crutch (race based programs) to lift ourselves up. We only needed the unfair weight taken off of our backs.


again, you've been "found out" so at least be honest about who you are and why you think the way you do. why did you need the crutch called slavery? why do you need the ongoing crutch of racism and discrimination?

quote:

So you feel benefits for the rich is wrong, but based on race it is ok?


the point is that the rich have generally gotten that way off of the backs of other people. when those people make efforts to right that wrong, "the rich" cry about "preferences". it's absurd.
The Merit Lie!

Many white people really believe Jesus is white, no scholar, no government and no Pope will change that! In fact, in every instance where Jesus was ever presented as non-white, the anger of white Christians at-large was brought down upon the heads of the blasphemous presenters!

Many whites believe most blacks are on welfare or are criminals! Despite well-researched reports in renowned text such as The Statistical Abstract of the United States, which refutes the criminality belief of white America and clearly states that whites and not blacks represent the majority of welfare recipients in the United States.

Most whites, in the core of their hearts truly believe white people are more intelligent than blacks, - even when blacks possess the highest college degrees! When white people possess no advance education in the arts and sciences, they always enjoy the presumption of intelligence. This is the precise case with Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity, two white guys possessing nothing more than High School diplomas for which white people profess they are nonetheless intelligent! Yet, no black person today possessing only a high school diploma enjoys the accolades of intelligence bestowed by the media! If you are uneducated in America, best you be white because Negroes are less intelligent than whites.

To add insult to injury, the President of the United States who was rejected from the University of Texas graduate school enjoyed affirmative action at Yale not because of his grades but because Yale was his daddy's alma Mata!!

Now whitey talks about merit. What does merit mean when the whites making the decisions refuse to abandon beliefs that run through their veins with their blood? Merit is subordinate to fact and belief prevails and becomes the bases for any decisions whites make regarding blacks. During the days of slavery in America for example, no scholar, Pastor, Preacher or Politician could convince the average white person that the Negro was a man and a human being entitled to the same rights as the whites who enslave them! Merit today is no different, it competes with what white people at-large refuse to abandon, their internal belief in white superiority!!!!
I am my father keeper applies in the instance of affirmative access regardless if that public-private education certified never amounts to more than investing the families money into a Business venture, but fizzles out at responsibility for legacies behavior. Most certainly us, a legacy enrollment is just-us in its essence.
At the level of College enrollment it is Black, Hispanic and White. Affirmative action is based on the economic disadvantage of Blacks and Hispanic's induced, prolonged and carried on by Whites. Legacy enrollment is based on the economic advantage of Whites gained from the use of American Blacks and similar un-constitutional practices made against Hispanics. Equal Opportunities are not being offered.
quote:
so are you saying that because racist laws were removed that racism no longer exists? perhaps i'm not understanding you.

Where in my post did I say racism doesn't exist?
quote:
a cab.
What we are not allowed to ride in cabs, now? There are some racist cab drivers out there, but don't tell me you have never been able to catch a cab.
quote:
ended? on what planet?

again, give me an example of a law that says we are not entitle to things because we are not white. I do see laws written which state we shall not be denied employment, a place to live, etc. because of race.
quote:
you obviously aren't black and have never experienced racism and discrimination. let me, respectfully, suggest that just because you've never paid attention to it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

quote:
again, you've been "found out" so at least be honest about who you are and why you think the way you do. why did you need the crutch called slavery? why do you need the ongoing crutch of racism and discrimination?

Oh yeah you really figured me out I'm not black (scarcasm) Roll Eyes
quote:
the point is that the rich have generally gotten that way off of the backs of other people. when those people make efforts to right that wrong, "the rich" cry about "preferences". it's absurd.

Everyone is bothered by the things the rich get away with even the poor white folks.
Witness, what's up!!!! Finally, a fellow East Orange Dweller in the hizzu!

Man, I'm pretty appalled that a sitting United States President would take a step like this. Especially a guy who can't pronounce "nuclear" who yet got into a prestigious higher learning institute via preferences... a guy who pushes CLEARLY underqualified Hispanic lawyers for federal judgeships just because they're conservative...

And what's so weird about this now is that he recently supported minority set-asides in government contracts. Oh, but educational AA?!? Oh no, that simply must be stopped.

But I also blame the U of M for not changing the terms of their program to make it more "politically acceptable."

The issue, to me, is perfectly clear: there are racial imbalances in this country that clearly create advantages in educational access to whites over blacks. Any white person who fails to get into college due to a reasonable AA plan wouldn't have been qualified to get in on his own power had he not had the unfair advantages he had.

Educational affirmative action is the one area of AA that I wholeheartedly support. It's also the most necessary area of AA. I don't mind people disagreeing with me, but I do mind the president of the United States filing an amicus brief opposing it.
quote:
Originally posted by obvious_1:
I am curious to see how it all works out WHEN Affirmative Action is abolished. Although some may not like what the president has to say, you can't really argue against the fact that he is right. But, while he is tearing down AA he needs to divise a plan that will improve the difference in the quality of public elementary and high school education among races. Being some one who was educated in a majority black and hispanic inner-city district, then a majority white suburban school district I now there is a big difference in the quality between both.
I want to see how plans such as New York City Mayor Bloomberg's plan to create a uniform curriculum for all city students works out http://www.newsday.com/news/local/newyork/ny-nyskul163090724jan16,0,1257933.story?coll=ny%2Dnynews%2Dspan%2Dheadlines . If we can be assured that all students receive the same education then Affirmative Action for university admission should not be neccasary.

The reality is that we can be assured that all students are not receiving the same education. Take for example the city of Baltimore. In the inner city, approximately 36% of the teachers in the class room are teaching in areas for which they do not possess certification. State wide, the average is only 4%. It is clear that the quality of education for students in the inner city (predominantly students of color) will not meet the standard of students in other areas of the state.

With respect to geography, as long as public schools are largely funded by local property taxes, there will be huge discrepancies in the quality of education. Again, students in economically depressed areas will be seriously disadvantaged.

Thus, as much as we would like it to be otherwise, Affirmative Action is still essential with respect to education in this country and will be for quite sometime. When various individuals contend that it is unjust because its implementation is at the expense of others, the privilege enjoyed by the majority population is clearly at the expense of the poor and minorities in this country.

Affirmative Action is a corrective. Perhaps not ideal, but a realistic necessity.
Another part of the problem is there aren't enough qualified teachers to go around and the white teacher even some of the black and hispanic ones don't want to teach in these economically depressed schools. My wife is a elementary school teacher in a poor inner city school district and she is constantly point out to me that most of the teachers don't want to work there and are only there because they weren't accepted to a surburban district.

quote:
Affirmative Action is a corrective. Perhaps not ideal, but a realistic necessity.


I disagree I don't think we need it. It's time we stop demanding a place at the White folks table and create our own. So what if we don't go to U of M. There are HSBCU that are qualified to teach law. Instead of worrying about getting into a White school where we are not wanted we need to work on strengthing our HSBCU so we can compete and maybe even surpass the white schools.
quote:
Originally posted by obvious_1:
quote:
Affirmative Action is a corrective. Perhaps not ideal, but a realistic necessity.


I disagree I don't think we need it. It's time we stop demanding a place at the White folks table and create our own.


So what do you propose? Armed insurrection to create a Black State? Should we lobby to get the United Nations to go in to Africa and carve us out a new country we can take over there?

In case you missed it, we live in a white world. Unless you propose measures like above, your approach, while "romantic", makes little sense. Unless we are allowed to enter and play their game, we submit ourselves to perpetual second-class citizenship.
Don't misconstrue my words. Nowhere did I talk about carving out a black only country. I am talking about competing in this country and the rest of the world. What's going to stop us from creating our own education system and businesses? These are the things we need to focus on and make a reality instead of sitting back thinking it is some sort of romantic idea. You always here about Black people going to college getting all these degrees and then fancy jobs. But, beyond that a lot of them don't do the things necessary to secure the future of their children, grandchildren and so on. If we don't do it no one else will.
When you ask 'is he correct', the answer is YES, he is correct about the issue that basing decisions on skin color is unconstitutional. About the political fallout? Well, as I recall, there are some black folks at the forefront of this issue, calling affirm action wrong. So, politically, I think it always better to go with your beliefs and values, not always stick your finger in the wind and trade values for votes.
quote:
Originally posted by obvious_1:

Although some may not like what the president has to say, you can't really argue against the fact that he is right.


Please elaborate on why you think Bush could possibly be "right".

Furthermore enlighten us on your interpretation of affirmative action as choosing blacks over whites or quotas. Do you know of an instance where this is actually true?

It sounds like u don't actually know what affirmative action is. That's dangerous, because ignorant blacks who don't know what affirmative action is, yet oppose it, give credence to the "angry white males" stupidity and make things worse for the rest of us.
The problem with the current debate on Affirmative action are a few things.
1. The people who are suing on the debate of Affirmative Action in the case against Michigan state are women. Women are also protected under the Affirmative action legislation as well as the ERA (equal rights amendment) That particular case should've never made it past the state courts.
2. The basis of the Affirmative action debates have been soley focused on the race based portion of Affirmative action, mainly about African-americans. That is simply narowminded and racist. Not one hispanic, asian or any other race has been attacked for their use of the Affirmative action programs in this country.
3. President Bush is saying one thing, siding with the 98% conservative elements of his party. The Secretary of State Colin Powell, who has been cut down at almost every turn by his president and other racist cabinet members, is pro affirmative action.

Basically I feel that the attitude of the president white citizenry of this country are acting racist towards African-americans in this particular instance. This is blatantly obvious by the comments made by whites and the actions of the president of the United states.

Yssys
quote:

Originally posted by obvious_1:

Why are you for a program that takes race into consideration?


Blacks have been in this country since 1619. All that time, except for the last 30 or so years, race has been a primary factor inhibiting our access to equal opportunity in America. Racism - making distinctions based upon race - has been at the core of our society forever and was even built into the Constitution. If we now believe that equal rights should be available to every person, America should be prepared to make ammends for the hundreds of years that it denied blakcs access to things like education, economic opportunity, health care, home ownership etc. The only way to do that is to assist those who suffered from that discrimination. They happen to be black.

For America to discriminate based upon race for 350 years and then to try to self-servingly call for a "colorblind" society serves only to perpetuate the racism and discrimination that we all supposedly now reject. It locks into place the current advantages that racism and discrimination over the generations have created. If most reasonable people agree that blacks were immorally harmed, it only makes logical and moral sense to now do whatever society can do to make up for its past trangressions.

quote:
Take out race and gender and let it be an economic based program. Let it take the economically depressed and give them a boast to compete with those who are financially better off.


I agree with you - to a point. In my latest editorial I discuss how poor whites have been similarly afflicted in this country. Nevertheless, racism is layered on top of "classism" and deserves particular attention as well. Society continues to put additional obstacles in front of black achievemenet that even the poorest white never has to deal with.

In your mind, though, how can you justify assisting one group, and not another? You feel uncomfortable creating programs to assist blacks - despite the harm that racism and discrimination do to them. At the same time, you can support assisting them if the net is widened to include groups economically disadvantaged? Why?

quote:
I know what Affirmative Action is and the way it is now gives the Whites who are racist fuel for the ideology that we are dumb and can't compete on a level playing field.


So what? Should we create policy based upon the bigotry of racist whites?

quote:
Now enlighten me on why do we can't compete with out Affirmative Action?


We do. If you think of all that we as a community have accomplished, DESPITE the scourge of racism that brought us here, enslaved us, and continues to malign us, you'll realize that our accomplshments are astounding. THINK OF WHAT WE WOULD ACCOMPLISH WITHOUT THE SOCIETAL DRAG OF DISCRIMINATION THAT CONTINUES TO SLOW US DOWN? We win the race despite having to carry the ball and chain of discrimination around our ankle!

Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.


[This message was edited by MBM on January 20, 2003 at 08:12 AM.]
Please, there are not all these black folks running around out there who do not know what affirm action is. We damn near ALL KNOW exactly what it is, so lets not play that game here.

Have you seen the Michigan policy negrospiritual? Thats a REQUIREMENT in understanding this issue. It puts race before ALL other factors, EVEN academic excellence. If a student scores a perfect score on their SAT, that warrants only 12 points towards the admission scale of 100. However, a black daughter of a multi-millionaire would receive 20 points just for having a dark skin tone. That sound fair or smart to you?

And ALL affirm action is based on quotas. How else can you know whether affirm action is being excercised at any given institution unless you look at the numbers? Let me ask you negrospiritual, if the U of Michigan came out and said we have 1 black student per every 20,000 and we are advocates of affirm action, what would be your thoughts or answer to that? As you'll see, if you are honest about this, is that you cannot have affirm action based on race without including the quota factor.
quote:
Originally posted by dwill:

It puts race before ALL other factors, EVEN academic excellence.


dwill - perhaps you didn't see the full criteria posted earlier in the thread. FYI - a poor white kid from the Upper Peninslula gets the same 20 points (socio-economic disadvantage) PLUS an additional 16 points. As you can see, race is but one of a number of factors.

P.S. Are you also pissed at the male nurisng students? Wink


Geography
10 points - Michigan resident
6 points - Underrepresented Michigan county
2 points - Underrepresented state

Alumni
4 points - "Legacy" (parents, step-parents)
1 point - Other (grandparents, siblings, spouses)

Essay
1 point - Outstanding essay (since 1999, 3 points)

Personal achievement
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Leadership and service
1 point - State
3 points - Regional
5 points - National

Miscellaneous
20 points - Socio-economic disadvantage
20 points - Underrepresented racial-ethnic minority identification or education
5 points - Men in nursing
20 points - Scholarship athlete
20 points - Provost's discretion


Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
Here is what I stated earlier. I don't know why it was deleted.
Why are you for a program that takes race into consideration? Isn't that what we are supposed to be getting away from? Why do we need it and don't tell me it is suppose to right the wrongs of slavery and Jim Crowe Laws. If that is the case I would rather have slavery reparations and funnel that money into strengthening HBCU, black startup companies, etc. Affirmative Action the way it is now has no place in a democratic society not to mention it is so flawed it's ridiculous. Take out race and gender and let it be an economic based program. Let it take the economically depressed and giving them a boast to compete with those who are financially better off. Isn't that what it is all about and it fits well into this country's capitalist beliefs. I know what Affirmative Action is and the way it is now gives the Whites who are racist fuel for the ideology that we are dumb and can't compete on a level playing field.

Now enlighten me on why we can't compete with out Affirmative Action?


quote:
Blacks have been in this country since 1619. All that time, except for the last 30 or so years, race has been a primary factor inhibiting our access to equal opportunity in America. Racism - making distinctions based upon race - has been at the core of our society forever and was even built into the Constitution. If we now believe that equal rights should be available to every person, America should be prepared to make ammends for the hundreds of years that it denied blakcs access to things like education, economic opportunity, health care, home ownership etc. The only way to do that is to assist those who suffered from that discrimination. They happen to be black.

For America to discriminate based upon race for 350 years and then to try to self-servingly call for a "colorblind" society serves only to perpetuate the racism and discrimination that we all supposedly now reject. It locks into place the current advantages that racism and discrimination over the generations have created. If most reasonable people agree that blacks were immorally harmed, it only makes logical and moral sense to now do whatever society can do to make up for its past trangressions.



Yes, it is self-serving for America to want a colorblind society. Are we not American and isn't that what the Civil Rights Movement was about. You said it yourself; 30 years ago laws were in place to inhibit us because of our race. Now in the 21st Century those laws have been abolished, and if it is amends you want this isn't the way to go about it. In fact race based programs undermines our efforts and inhibit us from creating our own like we were doing during the time of Jim Crowe Laws (Negro League Baseball, HBCU, etc).

Explain to me how this perpetuates racism?

quote:
I agree with you - to a point. In my latest editorial I discuss how poor whites have been similarly afflicted in this country. Nevertheless, racism is layered on top of "classism" and deserves particular attention as well. Society continues to put additional obstacles in front of black achievemenet that even the poorest white never has to deal with.


If you agree with me then why do you feel a need to base a program solely on race and nothing else? Instead of looking to have a couple of "Token Negroes" placed throughout a society that doesn't truly believe we belong there I would much rather see our effort combined towards creating our own that can be handed down to future generations. Then we wouldn't have to worry about the racist, because no matter what we do they will not change. We should be trying to protect ourselves and the only way of doing this is to compete head on.

Unless you would like to see this country become communist classism will always be here. And the way I see it classism is what will keep a capitalist society going because it will keep people motivated from being the bottom class.

Can you elaborate on the obstacles being placed in front of black achievement and why They cannot be overcame.

quote:
In your mind, though, how can you justify assisting one group, and not another? You feel uncomfortable creating programs to assist blacks - despite the harm that racism and discrimination do to them. At the same time, you can support assisting them if the net is widened to include groups economically disadvantaged? Why?


As I stated above assistance based solely on race contradicts our Civil Rights and assistance based on financal status stimulates capitalism.

quote:
So what? Should we create policy based upon the bigotry of racist whites?

Confused
quote:
Originally posted by dwill:

Please, there are not all these black folks running around out there who do not know what affirm action is. We damn near ALL KNOW exactly what it is, so lets not play that game here.


apparently neither you nor obvious know what "exactly what it is" since you are unable to quote the governmental policies/directives which determine affirmative action, and you misstate the information in the University of Michigan case.

To assume that african americans, hispanics, asians, indians, and women no longer need affirmative action is to assume that white males in control will equitably distribute jobs, power, resources out of a sense of fairplay. A foolish notion, in my opinion. If that were the case, gov't intervention would not have been necessary in the first place. I read somewhere that in 1890 black people represented 1% of wealth and in 2001 black people represented 1% of wealth in this country. Despite integrated schools, public water fountains, and seats at the front of the bus, white men maintain control over resources, power, and access. The "angry white male" resents having to distribute ANY job, education, house, etc. fairly. Laws regarding minority access are still necessary.
quote:
Originally posted by dwill:

And ALL affirm action is based on quotas. How else can you know whether affirm action is being excercised at any given institution unless you look at the numbers?


ah, that ole fearful word, QUOTA

what about this words strikes fear in the hearts of white men? or black men who fiercely defend the rights of white men?
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Originally posted by obvious_1:

Are we not American and isn't that what the Civil Rights Movement was about.


The Civil Rights Movement is about equal opportunity. Equal opportunity is predicated upon a fair shot at achievement in this country. It's not just about being allowed to enter the race, it's about having an equal shot at winning.

A question for you:

I create a society set up to deny your family all education, economic opportunity, healthcare or access to anything to improve your condition in life. I consider you my property and give you no rights whatsoever. I tear your familiy apart - selling members off at my whim. I rape your women, and routinely string members of your family up at the nearest tree to control you. I work you from before sun-up until after sundown and I feed you my scraps. In fact your sole existence is to subsidize my standard of living - to make things easier and better for me.

This society is set up propogate my social and economic standing at all costs. I have access to the best of everything. I go to the best schools. I buy property and other assets and pass wealth to my heirs through the generations - creating increasing advantage for each succeeding generation. I set the rules and define success in my own terms, and I specifically structure this society to keep you on the very bottom.

Then, after 350 years of this I decide to one day magically give you your rights after all. Despite my 350 year head start, despite my lead in education, wealth, economic opportunity, etc. - do you really think that you are going to have an equal shot at achievement and opportunity with me?

Let me ask you another question. Do you think your child has the same shot at succcess in this country as a child of a Kennedy or a Rockefeller or a Bush? Do you think you could have been elected president of the United States after being arrested three times? Did your daddy make a phone call and get you into Yale? If you answered NO to these questions then you now understand what I'm talking about.

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If you agree with me then why do you feel a need to base a program solely on race and nothing else?


First of all nothing is solely based upon race. I've attempted to show you all of the criteria in a previous post, and how a poor white kid from upstate Michigan gets even MORE points than a black kid.

Nevertheless, to address the inclusion of race, racism and discrimination were based solely upon race. It was not randomly meted out. Whites brought Africans to America and enslaved them. It so happens that all of them were black. It also happens that those are the people that were wronged and deserve redress for experiencing probably the most heinous crime against humanity in the history of the earth. If we want to help the specific families that experienced the horrors of slavery, racism, and discrimination - then we're going to help black people.

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Instead of looking to have a couple of "Token Negroes" placed throughout a society that doesn't truly believe we belong there I would much rather see our effort combined towards creating our own that can be handed down to future generations.


Great. Go for it!

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We should be trying to protect ourselves and the only way of doing this is to compete head on.


Compete? Everything else you've said proposes our complete segregation from America. Should we try to colonize the Moon or something?

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As I stated above assistance based solely on race contradicts our Civil Rights and assistance based on financal status stimulates capitalism.


This is a good one! Can you tell us more about your hypothesis here?



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.


[This message was edited by MBM on January 20, 2003 at 07:39 PM.]
Well said, Obvious_1

"Affirmative Action the way it is now has no place in a democratic society not to mention it is so flawed it's ridiculous. Take out race and gender and let it be an economic based program. Let it take the economically depressed and giving them a boast to compete with those who are financially better off. Isn't that what it is all about and it fits well into this country's capitalist beliefs. I know what Affirmative Action is and the way it is now gives the Whites who are racist fuel for the ideology that we are dumb and can't compete on a level playing field." by Obvious_1

There are extremely gifted and highly intelligent Black people in every field of endeavor, be it professional or otherwise, who do not, in any regard, need the crutch of affirmative action to prove their worth or substantiate their ability to achieve.

It would be a misnomer and a discredit to those of true competency to accept even the slightest notion that they made it on the basis of Affirmative Action.

True competency, talent, etc., is independent of age, race, religion, ethnic background, physical disability, gender, creed, etc.

Affirmative action as it is presently practiced is unfair, illegal, and un-Constitutional no matter how you look at it.

Removing Caucasian America from the equation, with just Black people, and other minorities, the people who have mis-appropriated the benefits derived from AA mainly look out for personal friends, relatives, etc., as opposed to spreading opportunity to all who qualify.

AA is, and has been, unfair to the masses of Black people as well. The primary beneficiaries of AA, are the Black Bourgeoisie, and liberal Caucasian women.

"I read somewhere that in 1890 black people represented 1% of wealth and in 2001 black people represented 1% of wealth in this country. Despite integrated schools, public water fountains, and seats at the front of the bus, white men maintain control over resources, power, and access. The "angry white male" resents having to distribute ANY job, education, house, etc. fairly. Laws regarding minority access are still necessary." by negrospiritual

...and in cases of law and equity, where Black people have a legal right and opportunity to acquire massive wealth through redress for damages, the Black bourgeoisie, especially as it pertains to some of the so-called university educated of Black America, namely as it applies to those who use AA as a crutch, play games of deceit or side with the original perpetrators, meaning big business, and/or agents and officials of government who clearly violate the U.S. citizenship rights of the truly innocent of Black America, as it applies to the misrepresented, the under-represented, the indigent, and/or the underclass.

The fact that economic prosperity remains at 1% as applied to the combined wealth of Black people in the year 2001 within the U.S., is a product of the level and proficiency of representation that the so-called educated class of Black America, meaning lawyers, elected officials, business persons, clergypersons, journalists, etc., provide to our own community, over any fault on the part of Caucasian America, or otherwise.

Blaming the demise of Black people on Caucasian men, without also directing a great deal of the blame at our own community, is clearly unfair, inappropriate, without basis, and playing this "Blame Whitey Game" will not, and has yet to bring Black people into the economic mainstream.

Sincerely,

Michael Lofton

[This message was edited by Lofton on January 20, 2003 at 10:36 PM.]
quote:
Then, after 350 years of this I decide to one day magically give you your rights after all. Despite my 350 year head start, despite my lead in education, wealth, economic opportunity, etc. - do you really think that you are going to have an equal shot at achievement and opportunity with me?

A head start should be given not because of race but because of financial hardship. This is the stimulus to capitalism I'm talking about and will get to it a little later. You can't say don't judge me because of my race and turn around and say when it is beneficial to me it's ok, that makes you a hypocrite.
quote:
Let me ask you another question. Do you think your child has the same shot at succcess in this country as a child of a Kennedy or a Rockefeller or a Bush? Do you think you could have been elected president of the United States after being arrested three times? Did your daddy make a phone call and get you into Yale? If you answered NO to these questions then you now understand what I'm talking about.

They wouldn't have the same shot as a Kennedy, Rockefeller, or Bush. Nor would they have the same shot as Bob Johnson's or Magic Johnson's children either. The primary reason being these people have wealth and that affords them certain benefits in this country. Bob Johnson has a whole lot more money than I do which afford the best education for his children and when it comes to his children and my children getting into a Yale who do you think will be chosen first? He benefits in this county because of wealth and set-aside programs. Now is that fair to a low-income black person? One of the biggest flaws of Affirmative Action is the upper and middle class African Americans benefit more from it than the low-income ones who need it more. If it was financial based this problem wouldn't exist.
quote:
I've attempted to show you all of the criteria in a previous post, and how a poor white kid from upstate Michigan gets even MORE points than a black kid.

Yes, a black kid outside the state of Michigan. Now take a black kid from the same circumstances and put him up against this same white kid, who now has more points?
quote:
If we want to help the specific families that experienced the horrors of slavery, racism, and discrimination - then we're going to help black people.

If slavery, racism, and discrimination cause the majority of black people to be in financial hardship then a financial based affirmative action will help black people and still be fair to poor white people.
quote:
Great. Go for it!

I will and I don't need you to patronize me.
quote:
Compete? Everything else you've said proposes our complete segregation from America. Should we try to colonize the Moon or something?

Why is a call to protect us from racism taken as a call for separation? I am not a separatist. I thought it is common sense. Look at the difference between white racists, black racists and the effect they have on those they are racist towards. It is dependency, White people could careless if a black person is racist because there is nothing they need a black person to provide them with they can't get from someone of their own race. On the other hand black people still depend on whites to provide them with the majority of their needs and there are few black companies as an alternative.
quote:
This is a good one! Can you tell us more about your hypothesis here?

This society is based on individual wealth and it affords those with it certain privileges that those without it don't have. Create a program that gives a chance to those who are not fortunate enough to be born into a wealthy family. Make them productive by giving them something to work for. While they are working to produce wealth and the wealthy a working to maintain theirs, society as a whole will produce and maintain itself.


While there are those trying to stop racism (something that will never go away) there need to be those who learn how this country works to put forth more of an effort to protect there own from it. Maybe that is one of the greatest trick the white man has ever done. He converted the Civil Rights Movement from something that seeks protection from racism into to something that still leaves us dependent on Whites, some who are racist.

Excuse my delay in responding Wink
quote:
Originally posted by obvious_1:

The primary reason being these people have wealth and that affords them certain benefits in this country.


Then, do you think there is an equal opportunity to create wealth in this nation? Do blacks and whites have an equal shot at generating wealth? If not, then shouldn't we do things to level that playing field? IMHO the issue of whether the poor have an equal shot is an extremely important question. But its an entirely different question altogether.

quote:
Bob Johnson has a whole lot more money than I do which afford the best education for his children and when it comes to his children and my children getting into a Yale who do you think will be chosen first? He benefits in this county because of wealth and set-aside programs. Now is that fair to a low-income black person?


People take advantage of the opportunities that are the closest to them. If there were an AA program to get into the Super Bowl, unfortunately that wouldn't be a program that I could take advantage of. On the other hand, my brother-in-law, who plays for the Bengals, would be in a much better position to benefit from something like that.

To the poorest person, perhaps the most appropriate assistance would be a hand getting into a good school or accessing appropriate job training skills etc. To someone like Bob Johnson, perhaps that is a hand getting access to opportunities in business. Either way, since racism is present throughout all areas of society - there need to be programs throughout all areas to bring those that have been excluded in.

Realistically, the poor person is not in a position now to take advantage of the programs that a Bob Johnson could. That doesn't make the program flawed. Because racism and discrimination are found throughout society - Bob Johnson and the poor person take advantage of whatever they can to push themselves ahead.


quote:
[One of the biggest flaws of Affirmative Action is the upper and middle class African Americans benefit more from it than the low-income ones who need it more.


With respect to college education, as it is now, only about 25% of all Americans graduate from college. The number is much less within the black community. On its face, a college education is an "elitist" thing and is going to disproportionately impact those that already are moving in that direction. In my opinion that does not make the program wrong or flawed. It helps those who want to go to college and have prepared themselves to do so. Unfortunately that is a small percentage of us. Make no mistake though, for those that college is right, AA has been a big help in getting kids into schools. I can't see any flaw in that.

quote:
Now take a black kid from the same circumstances and put him up against this same white kid, who now has more points?


The black kid from Detroit gets fewer points than the poor white kid from the Upper Peninsula. Both are Michigan residents - thus they get the same points there. Each gets 20 points becuase they represent a demographic that the school is encouraging - the black kid for his race, the white kid for his socio-economic disadvantage. The white kid gets additional points, however, for being from the rural area of the state.



quote:
If slavery, racism, and discrimination cause the majority of black people to be in financial hardship then a financial based affirmative action will help black people and still be fair to poor white people.


Poor blacks and poor whites are not in the same position in this country. While both have experienced similar oppression from wealthy whites, there is both an additional layer of oppression, in the form of racism, that blacks have to deal with, as well as the historical realities that blacks were specifically harmed through the institution of slavery. Both create meaningful differences that warrant specific remedies IMO.

quote:
quote:
Great. Go for it!

I will and I don't need you to patronize me.


I apologize.


quote:
Why is a call to protect us from racism taken as a call for separation? I am not a separatist. I thought it is common sense.


I just don't believe that anyone can experience meaningful opportunity and success completely outside the mainstream of society. Whether we like it or not, that mainstream is white. White folks created the game and made the rules. Let's just learn to play within those rules to the absolute best of our ability. History has shown that given the chance, we do just fine.

quote:
On the other hand black people still depend on whites to provide them with the majority of their needs and there are few black companies as an alternative.


You raise a good point and it is a clarion call to black entrepreneurship. However, if we remain in America, we'll need to operate within an America that is white and to varying degrees hostile to our achievement. Despite that, we've shown that we can and will succeed.


quote:
This society is based on individual wealth and it affords those with it certain privileges that those without it don't have. Create a program that gives a chance to those who are not fortunate enough to be born into a wealthy family. Make them productive by giving them something to work for. While they are working to produce wealth and the wealthy a working to maintain theirs, society as a whole will produce and maintain itself.


I think this is the essence of Affirmative Action. I agree with it. I also agree that poor whites are worthy of assistance as well. I just think it's important to not throw everything into one pot - as that's a great way to inject racism into the AA process and then dilute its benefit to blacks even further.

quote:
Maybe that is one of the greatest trick the white man has ever done. He converted the Civil Rights Movement from something that seeks protection from racism into to something that still leaves us dependent on Whites, some who are racist.


As long as we're here we'll need to interact with the broader economy, government, social structure etc. While I don't see that becoming any less "white" anytime soon, I do see more and more brown and black people getting an opportunity to shape those institutions in a way that benefits a more inclusive definition of America.



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.


[This message was edited by MBM on January 23, 2003 at 01:38 PM.]
An excellent book that deals with the challenge of black entrepreneurship, although somewhat dated, is Manning Marable's, How Capitalism Underdeveloped Black America. In my opinion, Marable does an excellent job of demonstrating the weakness of scenarios where African Americans establish a separate economy let alone anything resembling an independent state along the lines often promoted by nationalist.
Obvious_1,

Tell me if I am correct. You do not think we need Affirmative Action in this country because it is unconstitutional and there are laws in tis country that will protect out freedom. We should not concern ourselves with a place at the white table because we should make our own.

If these statements are true I have several things for you to consider.

1. Affirmative Action has nothing to do with obtaining a fair and equitable education.

2. The difference between the urban school and the suburban school you attended was probably the amount of money spent per student. Meaning the suburban school was better because more money was spent to educate the students. Maybe this is why we should take a look at the economic state of our communities. maybe we'll find that all is not fair and equitable here in America.

3. There is a national level curriculum in place already. The problem wth education in this country is the lack of school accountability and the lack of funds spent to educate studnts.

4. The laws of this country have been changed to reflect modern culture but the problem is selective enforcement. Jim Crow is still alive and well in some places down here in the south. Let's do a little research on the laws and how they have affected us before we make incorrect boasts about them

5. The past no longer exists but in engineering terms, we are still experiencing the 2nd and 3rd order effects of slavery/reconstruction. The law says we can do a lot of things but in reality we cannot and Shy1 gave you a common example.

6. Affirmative Action is not about having a crutch. It is a form of reparations we are owed, plain and simple. I dont need a handout. I do from time to time need a hand up though.

7. Racism does still exist here in this country. The fact that we are debating this topic validates my point. You will not find any laws stating that this group of people is denied access to this article, etc, because racism now for all intents and purposes is covert which is the most damgerous kind. I respect Trent Lott for being a man and stating wht he really stood for. Its the folks with the hidden agenda that really scare me.

8. How do we compete in a country where we have been systematically oppressed since 1619. I guess that we should forgive and forget and start on our own. I dont think so. Have you read your history book lately? You need to find out what really happened during reconstruction so that you can talk intelligently about the condition of our people. We did venture out on our own following the Civil War with horrid consequences.

I agree with Negrospiritual. You do not fully understand affirmative action and what it has done and is still doing for us. The U Mich case is just "a small drop in the bucket". Perosonallly speaking, I dont even consider the U Mich case to be about AA. It is, in my opinion, the schools perogative to use inclusive recruiting practices in to gain more students of a particular race. This is currently being done in the military and no one gripes so why should we go into a tizzy when it happens at a prestigiuos law school. Affirmative Action is absolutely, unequivocallly needed in this country at this point in time. Affirmative Action gives allows us access to things we might not other wise be privy to. It puts our proverbial foot in the door, nothing more and nothing less. When utopia exists in America, if it ever will, then I say abolish Affirmative Action but until then we need it and must have it in order to survive.
You might be right but I think that men like Colin Powell and JC Watts will have something to say about it. You are right. We must prepare ourselves for the eventual demise of this program. I am currently exploring the issue of reparations, of which I think AA is a big part.
Some people really kill me when they say that you can't fix racism with reverse racism I don't see it as reverse racism. Getting me and every other young black female in Harvard still won't make up for the injustice that blacks have endured. Saying that we don't still face injustice is just a lie because we still do. Affirmative action should be abolished when

1. The 40% of white folks that say they would move out of a neighborhood if more than a couple of black familes move in goes down to 0%

2. When I'm not discriminated against on the phone because I sound black

3. When Ishia and Tyrone don't get passed over for the job because they have "black names"

4. When black people don't have to worry about venturing out after dark to some white towns in the south.

5. When our urban schools are just as good as the suburban schools.

6. When racial profiling is not practiced

7. When every two or three months you don't hear about some white cop shooting down some black man.

8. last but not least when the Media frees O.J. I am so sick and tired of hearing about every ticket this man gets geesh.

The same white people that are going around bitching about racism have probably sometime in their lives practiced some kind ofracism. You can't have your cake and eat it too. When people learn to respect others for the human being that they are then affirmative action should cease but that isn't going to happen in this lifetime. I'm so sick of hearing white people get on the news bitching about reverse racism when they see that the black person is actually getting good out of this program it scares some of them to death. Not to mention that the Hispanics (who hijacked AA) are becomming the largest minority and they are getting some good out of the program it scares some white people to death. No one has really mentioned the other minorites that use this program just blacks why is that?. When I hear white people say that MLK jr was a communist and then in the next breath say that AA is racist then we have a problem. AA is fair and its still not enough.

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