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It's not finished, there are many, many more brothers and perhaps some sisters that I have not posted, but the stories that go with the pictures are heavy, I read of wives and mothers begging their sons, husbands or fathers not to take the assignment, I read of brother's about to retire this year, I read of a [white] husband who moved up his wedding so that he could come home to his wife and have a big celebration upon their next reunion, I read of a brotha who did his full tour, went back to college then went back in as a reservist to handle matter in Iraq, I read of brothers who believed in what was taking place over there, I read of brothas that was confident that they were helping a country that wanted our help, I read of recent high school graduates (too young to legally drink in a USA bar, but not too young to die)excited to 'see the world' (and now the hereafter), I read, and I read but now my heart hurts.

Because I know most of their intentions were true but their Commander and Chief's was not. This so called war is needless, this is foolish, it needs to STOP.

I will try to post more, maybe in time, brofrown maybe not. Where is the honor, the valor, the lesson.

We must heed the voice of reason, the voice of our Queens, the voice that makes sense ... we must listen.

[This message was edited by Our Empowerment on November 02, 2003 at 08:28 PM.]
Buffalo, N.Y.
David Evans Jr.

Pvt. David Evans Jr., 18, enlisted in the Army after graduating in 2002 from Kensington High School in his hometown of Buffalo, N.Y.

Evans, of the 977th Military Police Company, was killed May 25 when a munitions dump he was guarding in Diwaniyah, Iraq, exploded and the steel shelter he was in collapsed.

He leaves an infant son, David Kevonta Evans, who was born in February, a month after Evans made his last visit home on leave. "I wish he could be here to see him, to hold him and to tell him how much he loved him," said the baby's mother, Tamara Douglas. "He wanted to see his son so bad."

His father, David Evans Sr., said his son wanted to make something of himself. "It was his choice to sign up and protect us," he said. "I'm proud of him."

At Evans' funeral, dozens of young people wore T-shirts memorializing him. Evans' infant son was pictured on many, with the words: "The legacy still continues."

Mourners spoke of the sense of service clear in Evans that would lead him to the military with the goal of a career in law enforcement. As a high school student, he interned at City Hall.

Friend Mallory Lee recalled a telephone call that Evans said might be their last.

"I said, 'Don't say that. You're coming back. We're getting old. You're going to see my kids, I'm going to see your kids. We're getting old,'" said Lee, 18.

"He was the brother I never had," she said.
A Jamaica-born man who emigrated to Canada in 1997 died fighting with the U.S. Marines in Iraq, according to published reports.

Cpl. Bernard Gooden, 22, who was killed in a gun battle in central Iraq April 4, is the first Canadian to be killed in combat in the war to oust Saddam Hussein, according to one newspaper.

"All I'm hearing now in my head is: 'Your son Brent is dead. Brent is dead.' That's all I hear," his mother, Carmen Palmer, said April 8.

Gooden, an immigrant to the Toronto area from Jamaica, had served as a Canadian Forces reservist before joining the U.S. Marines in June 2001.

"He didn't go in (to the Marine Corps) wanting to fight," said his girlfriend, Elizabeth Knox.

Gooden's mother said her son felt so safe inside his tank that he called it home.

The family plans to hold a memorial service and bury Gooden at a banana and coffee plantation in Jamaica, where he played soldier games as a child.

Gooden came to Canada at 16 to live with his father, Bernard Sr., in Whitby, Ontario.

Gooden went to high school in Whitby and attended Centennial College and York University until the school was hit by a strike.

To pass the time during the strike, he went to Mount Vernon, N.Y., to visit his mother and never returned.

His father said he didn't know his son had joined the Marines until his sister told him that Gooden had been killed.

[we all know people with stories like this, it should not be]
San Diego, Calif.
Devon D. Jones

As a student at Lincoln High School, Army Pvt. Devon D. Jones, 19, of San Diego told his counselor that he wasn't interested in the military. He planned a career as a teacher.

But Jones recently returned to the school to proudly show off his Army uniform, said Wendell Bass, principal at the school.

"He said he'd had a change of heart and decided to go in," Bass said.

Jones, based at Georgia's Fort Stewart with the 3rd Infantry Division, died in Iraq when his vehicle plunged into a ravine, the Defense Department reported April 7.

Jones, who graduated from Lincoln High in 2002, was a good student, Bass said.

Jones had been a teaching intern at Kennedy Elementary School, located across the street from Lincoln High, Bass said.

"He had a desire to come back and teach English one day," Bass said. "He was just a real gentleman. He was a young man that was quiet but at the same time was well liked by everyone."

Jones bounced from foster home to foster home after his mother went to prison. Three years ago, he found Evelyn Houston and the family he would call his own.
Mobile, Ala.
Howard Johnson II

Army Pfc. Howard Johnson II, 21, of Mobile, Ala., was killed in action in Iraq.

"He was God's gift to us and the Lord has taken him away," said his father, the Rev. Howard Johnson, who pastors Truevine Missionary Baptist Church in Prichard.

His family says the deployment to the Persian Gulf was his first trip out of the country. His unit, the Army's 507th Maintenance Company, wasn't expected to see combat, but it was ambushed by Iraqi forces March 23.

Johnson, 62, said he and his wife, Gloria, with two daughters, had waited 17 years for a son.

Mrs. Johnson, her face wet with tears, said, "We had no idea war would break out and we would lose our son."

U.S. Rep. Silvestre Reyes, D-El Paso, a member of the House Armed Services Committee, said March 26 that the 507th Maintenance Company ran into a heavily armed Iraqi combat unit that included two tanks and automatic weapons when it made the wrong turn near An Nasiriyah.
Raleigh, N.C.
James I. Lambert II

Finally, Jacqueline Lambert got the news she'd been waiting months to hear: Her husband, Spc. James I. Lambert, was coming home from Iraq.

The couple (she is an Army sergeant) had been deployed to the Middle East in February. She returned in May to their home in Fayetteville, N.C., outside Fort Bragg. But on July 31, less than two weeks before he was due to join her, her 22-year-old husband was killed in Baghdad when he was struck by a stray bullet that the Pentagon said may have been fired in some kind of celebration.

Lambert, a Virginia native who graduated from a Raleigh high school, "was happy he was coming home," Jacqueline Lambert said. "He was excited."
[why did he jump?]
Orangeburg, S.C.
Vorn J. Mack


Pfc. Vorn J. Mack, 19, of Orangeburg, S.C., died Aug. 23 near Ar Ramadi, Iraq. Mack jumped into the Euphrates River and did not resurface; his body was found downstream Aug. 24.

Mack was with the 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, based at Fort Carson, Colo.

Mack was roughly 5-foot-3 and 115 pounds when Sgt. Andre Boler saw him for the first time at Fort Carson in March.

"I thought he was someone's little brother, he was so young and little," Boler said. But that made no difference: "He was a great soldier." Mack would often cheer up soldiers with a cigarette or a story, Boler said.

A computer analyst, Mack began basic training a month after graduation from high school in 2002, his aunt Brinder Hicks said. He was one of five children, and one sister is in the Army in Kuwait.

"He was a little man with a big heart," Hicks said.
[50 with 6 children and still gambling with life? What was put in his brain to go looking for trouble for over 30yrs?]
Los Angeles
John W. Marshall

In his last dispatch before the war, 50-year-old John W. Marshall referred to himself as an old soldier with a clear purpose and little luxury to debate the reason for his mission.

"It's really not an issue with me. I am not a politician or a policy maker, just an old soldier," he wrote home in an e-mail. "Any doubts on my part could get someone killed."

Marshall, based at Fort Stewart, was killed April 8 by an Iraqi rocket-propelled grenade. He is the oldest U.S. military casualty of the [major]conflict in Iraq.

Marshall grew up in Los Angeles, enlisted when he was 18, and served stints in Korea and Germany. He and his wife, Denise, had six children, ages 9 to 17.

His mother, Odessa Mitchell, saw him in October before he headed to Kuwait, and never feared he wouldn't come home.

"That was something my son wanted to do. He loved the Army," she said.
Naw Bush victimized them by fighting to obtain oil and billions of dollars in contracts for his cronies....the unwritten affirmative action that benefits them only with YOUR tax dollars....while at the same time house negroes fight against the laws that would have increased opportunity for these individuals and made them skip the war in the first place.......
What is the matter with you ThaWatcher? These pictures bring home to some of us the level of the tragedy unfolding and how far some bastards would go in the name of money. Look at them ThaWatcher, they died for your President and his cronies to make a fast buck.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html

[This message was edited by henry38 on November 04, 2003 at 11:19 AM.]
Way to go on avoiding the question henry and kevin...once again, If you died in a war- would you want someone to post your pic and story on the internet saying that you died for nothing? Have we fogotten that none of these soldiers were drafted? It's always sad to hear about a soldier dying, but don't dishonor their memory by saying that they died for nothing....
Yes I would ThaWatcher. Especially if I died under the circumstancies that would enable my commanders and their friends to get rich at my demise. I would want the whole world to know. But then why am I trying to explain this to you when it is glaringly obvious you are missing the point.

Think man how would you and your family like it if I sent you to your death on some lie so that I and my friends can make a fast buck. If you or your family don't mind, man you come from some mean background.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
ThaWatcher - do you not understand the difference between honoring individuals while at the same time decrying the war in which they were ordered to fight? These soldiers did not choose to go to Iraq. They did their jobs well and died with honor. The dishonor lies with the people who are responsible for their deaths.


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela
MBM,

I know Thawatcher has to know what we mean. I am mad that the black soldiers served a sorry azz country where they have to fight for the military and then come home to fight for equality. They died making a president rich who thinks that affirmative action is not necessary....and does not give a pfuck about high black unemployment or black issues in general. That really pisses me off that those brothers and sisters died in vain. Why watcher does not understand that concept I do not know..........
Have either one of you ever served in the USAF?...judging by your previous responses the obvious answer is no...

Gentlemen, this is a volunteer ARMY...and every soldier has a legal right to refuse to follow an illegal order. These soldiers did what they thought was "right" and you dishonor them by using their photos and stories to validate your claims against Bush. If you want to bash the Bush Administration, leave the soldiers out of it!!!
Well, have you ever served ThaWatcher? I did serve in the USAF as in Air Force up until this war was about to kick off. From your responses about this you obviously have never done any type of service, so watch what you say. I would say that more blacks in service don't fall into the Conservative staunchness the military is known for. In addition I would say that these young people who died 75% of them were trying to get out of the situations in their hometowns.
It is naivety to think that Bush is not using the military to enhance the the pockets of a few people in this nation. I mean this is the same guy who was involved and enriched with the Savings and Loans Scandal of the late 80's. He's been involved in more criminial activity on public record than any other president that I can recall in my lifetime. And all of this was before his presidency. I'm waiting to see what comes out after he gets out of office. Eek

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965

[This message was edited by Yssys on November 04, 2003 at 01:46 PM.]
Yes, I have served in the military- the USArmy to be specific and I was in an infantry unit. These soldiers were doing their duty, and there is no dishonor in that. Who joins the military without considering the possibility of death? Separation from family, death, dismemberment etc are all part and parcel and it's unrealistic for civillians to think that we can be at war and have no deaths. If you have an ax to grind against the president, don't use a dead soldiers picture to gain sympathy for your position. That's hitting below the belt and it dishonors the soldier...
How unrealistic is it for "civilians" to wish that "everybody could just get along"? All anyone's trying to do is live their lives. Once that "soldier" is laying in his coffin, I would guess he no longer knows about either his belt or any kind of dishonor nor honor nor whether or not his picture is being either displayed or not displayed. It no longer matters to the "soldier".
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
What's the point of posting pics and stories?...Do you think that these soldiers would want their pics up here singing a sad song? These people are heroes and you're victimizing them!


First what is your definition of "Hero".

When you have orders to do a job regardless of the duty, or how it turns out as far as your employer is concerned it's about work.

Second, "What's the point of posting pics and stories?" so that you and all other viewer would think critically about the issues surrounding their deaths.

Third, "Do you think these soldiers would want their pics up here singing a sad song?" My answer is Yes. As you could see there is one story that I believe was connected to an African American however their was no pic, so only the story was posted. The soldiers are dead, their families are carrying on in the best way they can, where do you think the photos came from, THE FAMILY, that's why some are not in military gear. The words are primarily from family, friends, and associates.

If you are not sad, or somehow changed by this post, you might want to consider prayer.
ThaWatcher,
you have no valid argument against the display of these pictures. This is no different than the vietnam memorial or WWII memorials erected throughout the country for people to see, feel, touch, the names and images of soldiers fallen.
The point of a memorial is not only to honor those slain but to prompt contemplation on whether any war is worth the human cost.
My arguement is this....using a dead soldiers picture is the lowest form of using imagery to make a point. Doesn't the original poster know that some soldiers have to die? Why are only black soldiers pictures posted? Was their sacrifice somehow greater than any other soldier who died?....It's so obvious that the person isn't posting these pics to make us "think"...they posted these pics in a pathetic attempt to use these soldiers life stories as ammunition against the president (the title says it all)....they should be ashamed of themselves!
ThaWatcher,
You do not have a clue to what extent the deaths of these soldiers affected people who are in this message forum. Who are you to tell someone how they should greive or show respects to someone else? You are really overstepping your bounds with that BS. There is nothing posted that is disrespectful in nature.

AS so far as W is concerned-just listen to Micheal Moore...he outlines a plethora of issues.

Nobody gives a damn about W, what he has done is obvious to the world and no longer a mystery of any kind. Only the flag-waving loyalists of the right are in denial about what has realy happened and what situation(s) W has placed this country in. It is funny though how your type will remain mum about an unjustified war but will trip out on clinton getting his Lowinsky on and trying to hide it from his old lady.....and that type of cognitive dissonance never works in the academic world where intellect and factual information counts. Since right-wingers cannot validate that right-wing racist BS in academia, they just label universities as bastions of liberalism that should be disregarded in terms of validity. Nope....they(the right has to take their ignorant(of the facts) following and give them big doses of rhetoric instead of data. From startig this war to the way they have learned to count unemployment falsely to make the numbers seem better, to lying their azz off about the economy...man if the economy was so damn strong, don't you think interest rates would have gone back up?.....you people are being pimped bigtime by this administration. Many of you are poor and marginally educated, and have the nerve to vote for the white...er...right as a way to take a counter-to-those-blacks political stand. You ought to go read some of the conservative literature on anti-intellectualism and how the dumbing down of america can be profitable and still keep power in the hands of a few. They try to do the blacks by racist, exclusionary polices that limit or stifle educational, financial and professional opportunites for blacks. They work to oppress poor blacks and actually pimp poor whites. They tell the poor and marginally educated whites that we are against those "black" policies, hence we are the white people's party. They(marginal whites) bite the hook on that racist bs and put the right-wingers in office. The right-wingers attack civil rights...and at the same time pass tax cuts that load their pockets and allows the poor, marginal white to get a new confedrate flag for their trucks (dean said it) and 300.00 to buy something else with. They also disenfranchise their azzes, tell them it is because of immigration and give all the work to Haliburton.....even in the midst of high unemployment. they could have kept allot of work over here or spread it out as economic stimulus packages.....did they? Hell no.......so all that is to say this........no one has to stoop that low to use these individuals against W......look around you, read the news, learn what indicators are for a failed presidency and you'll see that no ammunition is needed..you realy will.....I could go on and on but I have better things to do.......
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
Have we fogotten that none of these soldiers were drafted?


It appears that only one volunteered for this particular war, no others wanted to go to this war, but they went because they 'got orders', they stayed because they 'got orders', and they knew in no uncertian terms, that if they did anything other than what was ordered they would go to jail because they 'got orders'.



quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
... under the circumstancies that would enable my commanders and their friends to get rich at my demise. I would want the whole world to know.

... it is glaringly obvious you are missing the point.



Absolutely.



quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
ThaWatcher - These soldiers did not choose to go to Iraq. They did their jobs well and died with honor. The dishonor lies with the people who are responsible for their deaths.



Absolutely.



quote:
Originally posted by Yssys:
...these young people who died 75% of them were trying to get out of the situations in their hometowns.

It is naivety to think that Bush is not using the military to enhance the the pockets of a few people in this nation.

I mean this is the same guy who was involved and enriched with the Savings and Loans Scandal of the late 80's. He's been involved in more criminial activity on public record than any other president that I can recall in my lifetime. And all of this was _before_ his [stolen or appointed] presidency.



Absolutely.

>

... its time for Prosperity


> >  >



An African American Board Game Of Wealth & Success.


[This message was edited by Our Empowerment on November 07, 2003 at 06:56 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
... Who joins the military without considering the possibility of death? Separation from family, death, dismemberment etc are all part and parcel and it's unrealistic for civillians to think that we can be at war and have no deaths. ... That's hitting below the belt and it dishonors the soldier...


If the military branches wanted to be fair, they would incorporate all of the 'considerations', as you put it, into their advertising. Starting with showing how the family separation results in affairs and broken homes; then the various ways soldiers die in the military: death during pratice, death during transport, death by 'friendly fire', death by enemy fire, and non-physical death by loosing one's mind; but don't forget to show the arms shot off, eyes cut out, legs blown off, as well as the loss of sexual funtion and/or procreation ability due to 'freiendly chemical warfare'. If that's not enough you could also add all of the "etc" that you claim is part and parcel in the commitment.

But instead of fairness in advertising, THEY are "hitting below the belt" by showing nice sharp uniforms, vacation like travel, and "GI bill" benefits.

Have you ever wondered why the military is the only job you can't quit?

There are many shameful aspects to Bush's decision to place our brothers and sisters in harms way, but the most ironic piece of shameful Bush spit, is the fact that he avoided his duty when called to serve in nam.

Is that the Appointed President you are protecting, is that the Commander and Chief you are proud of, is that the 'Duty-dodging' person you want your children to risk their lives for?

Please reconsider your blind loyalty.
The gentleman with his arms outstretched over that coffin just makes me cry. My heart goes out to him and all parents/grandparents/relatives who are going through this throughout this country. There really are NO WORDS to describe this. NONE!!

The past is not dead. In fact, it's not even past. - William Faulkner, Novelist; Mississippi
@negro...

this thread isn't "marking the passing of our own" it's using dead soldiers as ammuniton against the war and the president. It's shameful and disrespectful...Iraqi insurgents killed these soldiers, not Bush...

@Our Empowerment
"Have you ever wondered why the military is the only job you can't quit?"
I know exactly why you can't quit...Everyone loves to wear the uniform,live on base, college education, travel, and have visions of being the war hero in a ticker tape parade...but when air raid siren sounds people start having "conscientious objections"....
When black men and women die in war started by whites to protect their investments and the Black community is still suffering from high unemployment rates, unattainable health insurance costs, etc what was their purpose for dying, except the white man. Yes I'm saying it.
The deaths of our brothers and sisters have done nothing to contribute to the Black community in the U.S. or abroad. So ThaWatcher, until you can substantially prove otherwise, these people certainly didn't die for any improvements in my neighborhood.
I smell something... something that smells like.... DAMN you smell like.... *fish*

Bush sending those brothers & sisters (no matter the color) to WAR under false pretenses is, in fact, him signing their death warrants!!

Quit SUCKIN' his DICK CHaney!! Big Grin

If you want to talk your politics... DETAIL YOUR THOUGHTS >> HERE << ... *fishie*

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on November 10, 2003 at 10:31 AM.]
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
@negro...

this thread isn't "marking the passing of our own" it's using dead soldiers as ammuniton against the war and the president. It's shameful and disrespectful...Iraqi insurgents killed these soldiers, not Bush...





That's NEGROSPIRITUAL to you

Please name one war, in which names and/or images of the slain have not been commemorated?

ALSO
the natural human condition is to abhor war - despite the reality that it is sometimes necessary. Across the centuries thousands of books, films, and speeches have been produced to protest the evils of war. Are historical works featuring anti-war sentiment also shameful and disrespectful?

Or do you find this particular observance of slain soldiers objectionable merely because it is authored by a black person and features black sacrifices?

and oh yeah, please point out what sources you have that our brothers were killed by "iraqi insurgents" and not Al Quaida in its newfound haven, thanks to "Dubya"
"Or do you find this particular observance of slain soldiers objectionable merely because it is authored by a black person and features black sacrifices?"

I find this so-called "observance" objectionable because you're using a US soldier to protest the actions of the US military. I also find it objectionable because your intent is not to commemorate the lives of these people, your intent is bash the president (just look at the title). IMO, you dishonor their memory....
ThaWatcher ... I am really disappointed and saddened that you would even ask this question:

quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:
What's the point of posting pics and stories?...Do you think that these soldiers would want their pics up here singing a sad song? These people are heroes and you're victimizing them!


The point is to honor those heros which is done by telling their stories. The song sung was not nearly as much sad as it was the truth. They all went to Iraq and died. Is that not the truth?

Our Empowerment posted the stories of their lives and their deaths. For you to call that a sad song really makes you incredibly insensitive. And if any dishonor has been presented here, it would have to be that you would call such truths "sad."

You can term it however you want to, but the truth cannot be refuted ... Bush started a war in Iraq and these men died in that war. Is that not true to you? I guess you and others like you would just prefer to see a "casualty list" and not put an actual face with an actual death. The same as when you hear ... "20 were wounded" ... I supposed you prefer to think that "wound" is just something you can put a Band-Aid on, rather than it being a leg or arm blown off, blindness, serious internal injuries or something else horrific in nature?

And then you have to ask why put pictures of Black soldiers up on a Black message board? Seems to me, only person who should have to ask such a question would be someone who isn't Black themselves. Is that what happened here?

BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:

I find this so-called "observance" objectionable because you're using a US soldier to protest the actions of the US military. I also find it objectionable because your intent is not to commemorate the lives of these people, your intent is bash the president (just look at the title). IMO, you dishonor their memory....



LOL, your historical and cultural ignorance astounds me. Does your silly ass not know the cache` of songs, poems, books, and speeches about war in american,british, irish, and african countries were created by someone bemoaning the loss of soldiers, protesting the waste of human lives, and questioning the need for war?

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

your true colors are showing...

You say nothing about centuries of Arabic, Greek, Roman, British, Irish, American, and African folklore which laments the death of soldiers dying in war...

yet somehow

the pictures of dead black soldiers is shameful to you?

you've been busted...
"Please name one war, in which names and/or images of the slain have not been commemorated?"

My point is this...this thread is not a "commemoration".

Commemoration-n 1: a ceremony to honor the memory of someone or something [syn: memorialization, memorialisation] 2: a recognition of meritorious service

This thread doesn't honor the memory of the person, nor does it regognize meritorious service. It attacks the president's decision to send troops into Iraq by trying to elicit sympathy (for example the man standing over a coffin). If the creator of the thread really wanted to honor the soldiers then they'd change the title of the thread. The creator of the thread is trying to be clever, but even Ray Charles can see that this is an obvious attack against the war and the president...You give Bush too much props by saying that he controls the life and death of soldiers. You also make it very clear (OurEmpowerment) that you're against the war and you dislike the president: "Because I know most of their intentions were true but their Commander and Chief's was not. This so called war is needless, this is foolish, it needs to STOP."....please make your statement without the pics and life stories of dead soldiers....It's shameful and it dishonors the soldier....

It's also shameful that I must be white because I support the president and the war. We disagree so I must be white, huh? What's next, house slave? sellout? Oreo?

[This message was edited by ThaWatcher on November 12, 2003 at 07:40 AM.]
Kevin41 ... Yes, I would think everyone would ... but obviously I'm wrong about that because at least one person here doesn't.

ThaWatcher ... 2 things ... first of all, I don't think you're White because you support Bush. I wonder if you're White because your concept of honor and commemoration and acknowledgement of fallen fellow Black soldiers seems to be on the whole other side of the spectrum from what Black people's concept is. You can support GeeDub all you want to, but not seeing the posting of the names and faces and stories of these young soldier's lives (and deaths) as an honor is a little bit suspect of you.

Secondly, the Bush-bashing didn't even start in this thread until you accused it of being such. The comment by Our Empowerment regarding the Commander in Chief was one unrelated sentence in the context of his original post. Whereas the rest of us opened this thread and saw honorable military soldiers who had given their lives to this war, you opened it and saw "Because I know most of their intentions were true but their Commander and Chief's was not." Why is that?

Regardless of any disdain or mistrust of your president, regardless of your support for him or for this war, the fact remains that the pictures posted were true and real pictures of true and real soldiers that really and truly died fighting for this country in a war that has been questioned as to it's real, true motives. The motive of WWI or II was never questioned. The motive of the first Gulf War was never questioned. There was no doubt as to their validity. If you really know the true context of war and the death and destruction caused by it, then I can't see how you can't agree that no leader -- Dem, Repub, Conserv or Lib -- should never enter into one under a "question" of any kind.

This president did. And that is as much a true fact as it is that the people pictured and written about in this thread are dead. Liking or agreeing or supporting Bush doesn't change that fact. Is that not a true statement?

BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
Watcher,
what's the deal with purposely referring to me as "our empowerment"? are you that dense as to not know the difference between two different people?


and about the question you obviously cannot answer...i'll dumb it down for you, ok?

Please name one war, at any time, in any place on the planet which did not inspire laments and protests about the loss of brothers, sons, fathers, etc. Where is your precedent for asserting that black people in a black forum on a black website should not want to lament the passing of black soldiers?

You mean we should shout hallelujah over the death of our precious brothas? We should chuck the birth control pills, condoms, jellies, and foams out the window and supply "dubya" with a neverending procession of black bomb targets?
quote:
Originally posted by ThaWatcher:

It's also shameful that I must be white because I support the president and the war. We disagree so I must be white, huh? What's next, house slave? sellout? Oreo?


Well if the shoe fits...

Look here Watcher, you are perfectly welcome to support Dubya and to support the war. YOU ARE THE SHAMEFUL ONE, HOWEVER FOR DARING TO DEFINE "COMMEMORATION" FOR SOMEONE ELSE.

furthermore, you seem to believe that in order for one to support dubya and his war, one is obligated to keep quiet about the losses our families suffer?

If you support dubya, are you required to be silent as our already endangered loved ones fall?

if commemoration is wrong, what is the point of funerals with 21 gun salutes, full military dress, and ceremony?

you might not be white, but u sure are trans parent
quote:
Look here Watcher, you are perfectly welcome to support Dubya and to support the war. YOU ARE THE SHAMEFUL ONE, HOWEVER FOR DARING TO DEFINE "COMMEMORATION" FOR SOMEONE ELSE.


I think that about sums it up, Cliche'-Man!
I keep smellin' fish whenever you post... Why is that??

You are suspect because of what your Frame Of Reference, your Point Of Departure, and your Fundamental Focus. Yes, on a Black website, with conscious Black people, talking about Black issues, you better come with a Black perspective that is not the mirror reflection of the perspectives of others.

If you didn't know, the image in the mirror is a**-backwards and not a true representation. And, that's what this is all about! Represent whatever ideas you have but on this site whatever those ideas are best be an extension of what it is to be both AFRICAN and American.

And therein lies your problem... You've already shown your DISRESPECT and DISHONOR to the former in deference to the latter. It comes out in everything you say.

Again, if you want to talk your politics, there's a nice thread MBM started that's begging for your attention. But, I doubt a Fishy Cliche'-Man like yourself has much to say that would even begin to show independent thought that would require. All you have done is responded to thoughts of others hardly ever outlining your own.

In the fashion of The Weakest Link...
ThaWatcher... YOU ARE THE HUMAN STAIN! Bye Bye! Big Grin
Nmag...that was so corny... Roll Eyes

This whole thread is dishonorable, shameful, fruitless, and counterproductive...Sorry people, I'm not going to jump on the Anti-Bush Bandwagon just because that's what a "real African-American" would do. I've said my peace regarding this false "commemoration"...you so-called "conscious" people need to re-evaluate your consciousness....
I figured that you could only understand humor like that. So I was talking on your level!! Big Grin
quote:
You are suspect because of what your Frame Of Reference, your Point Of Departure, and your Fundamental Focus is.

Now, concerning those things, YOU need to re-evaluate what you are about!

What is your Frame Of Reference? BUSH??
I don't give a damn about Bush, Clinton, etc.

So you can drop that Anti-Bush Sh*t and try something that has a basis. YOU ARE SUSPECT! Because that's about the only thing you have to offer... that's why I ask, WHAT'S YOUR POINT OF DEPARTURE??

If I won't to hear the White Party Line whether it's Republicans or Democrats... no thank you, I'll go directly to the White people that expouse those views. No need for a cheap Negro Imitation - aka A** Backwards Reflection.

You for damn sure shouldn't be decrying what a "real" African-American is... as you have more or less stated you don't care for the term 'African' and 'Black' doesn't figure into the equation with anything you have to discuss here.

If I'm wrong demonstrate (don't be scared by that word) how I am.

You are the one with the ANTI-BLACK conscious. You agree with your White counterparts it seems that the whole "race thing" should be dropped...
So what the hell are you whining about!

You have no standing to tell anybody here what they should re-evaluate, Fishy!! Again, if you want to discuss politics do it >> HERE <<

broscreamDon't Be SCARED!!! broscream
hmmmmmmmmm, I went back to CBS to secure more photos and stories, given that I know there are plenty that I did not secure, but they are gone, I checked under CBS search and can't get any.

I guess this is their way of telling us it's time to forget. Well at least the hot links are still active (for now -- expect to see red Xs in the near future).

Brother Tha Watcher, the reason why people can't quit the military is because they have a contract, not because of their love for the service.

Notice how reenlistment has dropped to the floor, and as far as the guard/reserve is concerned it's going to be bear bones by this time next year.

I went over to fox and this is an example of what I found:

quote:
Army Sgt. Michael D. Acklin II, 25, of Louisville, Ky. Killed when two 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters crashed in Mosul, Iraq. Assigned to the 1st Battalion, 320th Field Artillery, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Ky.

Army Spc. Ryan T. Baker, 24, of Brown Mills, N.J. Killed when two 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters crashed in Mosul, Iraq. Assigned to the 4th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Ky.

Army Spc. William D. Dusenbery, 30, of Fairview Heights, Ill. Killed when two 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters crashed in Mosul, Iraq. Assigned to the 4th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Ky.

Army Pfc. Sheldon R. Hawk Eagle, 21, of Grand Forks, N.D. Killed when two 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters crashed in Mosul, Iraq. Assigned to the 1st Battalion, 320th Field Artillery, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Ky.

Army Sgt. Warren S. Hansen, 36, of Clintonville, Wis. Killed when two 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters crashed in Mosul, Iraq. Assigned to the 9th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Ky.

Army Chief Warrant Officer Erik C. Kesterson, 29, of Independence, Ore. Killed when two 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault) UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters crashed in Mosul, Iraq. Assigned to the 9th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment, 101st Airborne Division (Air Assault), Fort Campbell, Ky.


the above is basically statistics, not debth, no photo, no human side, that is what FOX wants us to see, and apparently that is all Tha Watcher wants to see.

But we the jury of your peers have spoken ... ,
quote:
Teary farewell to B'klyn G.I. killed in line of duty



By LESLIE CASIMIR
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER


Rayshawn Johnson

Pfc. Rayshawn Johnson of Brooklyn was eulogized yesterday with tears and songs as a protective big brother and a proud soldier who gave his life for his country.
"Rayshawn volunteered so that I - that we - can go to school," said his cousin, Abdul Young, 19, who spoke to a somber audience at the Vanderveer Park United Methodist Church in Flatbush. "Rayshawn joined the most powerful military in the world to help protect the finest country - and he paid the price."

Johnson, 20, of East New York, had been in the Army only a year when his Humvee struck a land mine in Tikrit, Iraq, on Nov. 3, killing him.

His remains were buried yesterday at Long Island National Cemetery with a full honor guard and a 21-gun salute.

A member of the 299th Engineer Battalion, 4th Infantry Division, based in Fort Hood, Tex., Johnson's mission in Iraq was to help build bridges. The young man had wanted to become a U.S. marshal after leaving the Army.

His foster mother of 13 years, Deborah Wynter, received Johnson's posthumous Purple Heart and Bronze Star.

Her sister, Rosalyn Wynter, recalled in the eulogy her last conversation with him, on Oct. 31. He had sent messages to his extended family.

"[He told me to tell] his brother to do well in school; ... to see [that] his sister join the Air Force; tell his little brother that he was trying to reach him for the birthday, but the phones weren't working," said Rosalyn Wynter, her trembling voice trailing off as she addressed scores in attendance.

She said she remembers praying hard for his safety on Nov. 3 - the day he died - after learning about the American helicopter that was shot down, killing 16 soldiers the previous day.

"I prayed to God ... keep him safe - and on that evening I realized that He kept him safe," she said. "There is no man that can keep him safer right now. He is in God's hands, and he will always remain in our hearts."

The military held off on announcing Johnson's death because they couldn't reach his birth parents, Patty Johnson and Nathaniel Herbert. Patty Johnson attended the funeral.

Herbert said in a phone call from Pittsburgh, where he lives, that he was incensed he hadn't been informed and that authorities should have been able to contact him through foster care records.

"The boy is dead, and I feel real bad about this," he said. "I think the biological mother and father should know about it."

Rayshawn Johnson's younger sister, Diana Herbert, 17, said she will keep a promise she made to Johnson a while ago. She'll join the Air Force.

"I already took the test in June," she said. "I'm going to do it for him."

Originally published on November 15, 2003




ThaWatcher I thought you were not talking to us on this topic because it makes you look like a fool from a distance.Big Grin

Well give a man enough rope and he would hang himself and you have certainly proved that saying to be true by coming back to the topic. Don't blame us if we call you a fool from now on
rotflmao

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
He did that because he wants to show that even in a country where two soldiers, one an Army Specialist who is shot through both legs in the line of duty, held in captivity longer than the other, is being summarily discharged with a 30% disability benefit, and is a Black woman (Ms. Shoshana Johnson) and another who is merely a Private who suffered no gunshot wounds, was held 10 days less than her fellow comrad, and is a White woman, yet receives a better compensation package, better discharge benefit, and gets to make a million dollars while still having the ability to return to active duty (Ms. Jessica Lynch)... can still be friends and smile together in the face of the blatant racism, discrimination, disenfranchisement, and overall unfair treatment that is this country and the United States Army! Big Grin

BLACK by NATURE, PROUD by CHOICE.
Free your mind, and the rest will follow.
ohhhhhhh, now I get it, geee thannnka mama', I jusin don't no whats rong wid me, Izz jus gonna sufflu off' 'xcuzme i mean, Izz gonna mozzie on down to massa's big house an get me sum moor edumacation.

Big Grin [with one front tooth missing]

[I actually, didn't know who they were, I guess in their case, Bush ALMOST cost them their lives.]

[This message was edited by Our Empowerment on November 20, 2003 at 11:10 PM.]

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