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What do you think is the legacy of Brown vs. Board of Education now that we've arrived at the 50 year anniversary? Was it "good" for America? Was it "good" for African America? Some here are critical of the civil rights movement. Are you similarly critical of Brown vs. Board of Education?


There is no passion to be found playing small, in settling for a life
that is less than the one you are capable of living. - Mandela

© MBM

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I guess I am one that is critical of it. All I have seen from all of this intergration is the destruction of African American schools and communities all across the country, especially in the south. Where I live, every since intergration, there has been only one black school built in this county and it was one that was already in the process of being built when this decision was handed down. Since, they have closed down every black school except that one and have rebuilt every school in predominately white communities. Often a good school in a community attracts good hard working people that are interested in children's education, white communities know this and evidently black communities do not or could care less. No one has protested any of the schools being closed down except one - where after much protest, the school district decided it would rebuild the school, however, it will be moved from it predominately black community to the next city over.

Since intergration, I have seen black children have to change schools sometimes every or every other year, they have to be a bus stop while it is still dark outside. Black children are stero-typed, harrassed, mistreated and disregarded even still in these intergrated school systems.

I do not think that it was a good decision. Everyone should have been able to go to the schools closest to them and the school district should have had to give equal amounts of funding to each school. The schools would have been smaller, young children would not feel like they are being taken from home everyday, and the schools would have been or remained a part of a community, which would have encouraged more parental involvement in the schools by black and poor parents. If you child is bussed 10-20 miles away from your community each day to attend school and you happen to be a struggling parent who relies on public transportation, how are you getting to PTA meetings, volunteering, or how are you getting your child to and from school for extra-curricular activities.

What we have finally is still the same issue going on with the school systems, what it is really is, that poor children get the short end of the stick. Brown vs. Board of Education though it was only a black/white issue, when in reality it is a middle to upper class community/vs. a poor to lower middle class community---the discriminatory funding still exists along these line, and guess who predominately makes up the poor to lower middle class communities.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MBM:
"What do you think is the legacy of Brown vs. Board of Education now that we've arrived at the 50 year anniversary? Was it "good" for America? Was it "good" for African America?'

JWC: The decision was good for everyone. Only someone insistent on finding bad in the good would determine the "Brown" decision was bad. Such a mentality could not have the slightest idea about the wrong that was being fixed.

The "Brown Decision" was, essentially, the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement, certainly legislatively.

"Some here are critical of the civil rights movement. "

JWC: MBM you sit in an uneviable position. You have a certain obligation to look at everything. What is the realistic criticism of the civil rights movement? Any person who was an African American and living in the United States in 1954 knew the significance of the decision. You know of course there were African Americans who disagreed with the Civil War?

" Are you similarly critical of Brown vs. Board of Education?"

JWC: No.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.
MBM,

Please don't take criticism or critiques and place them in simplistic, polarized continuums.
"GOOD" or "BAD".

I have a basic question/critique concerning Brown and the consequent school desegregation...
How come our Black schools were completely abandoned? How come we couldn't keep a number of those BLACK schools we had under segregation and stood our ground on having both those schools infused with adequate funding and whatever technical know-how needed?

We kept the HBCU's but not the most influential and formative academies - K-12 schools. It's interesting that we can get all worked up about Vouchers, etc. but not about having schools that reflect our Liberation Imperatives via an
Education we control from top to bottom. That does mean that we could not employ others at any point in time who had perhaps the technical know-how that perhaps we didn't have. But they would assist us at our behest.

To use one of FAHEEM's themes...
The U.S. can go and rebuild Iraq in a systematic fashion but not [us]...

The lesson to extract from that or what I'm aiming at is that the institutions there will be "for the Iraqis" to run (eventually Roll Eyes) and will reflect their vision of what they want for their society, even if it has a Western stamp, it will still undoubtedly have a measurable Iraqi flavor.

(I'll stop ranting here...)

Yes! Brown was "good" but it could have been better, IMO, and we could have done better. If not then, then definitely in the 60's and 70's when it came time to ensure it was enforced...

The stark criticism I think you detect is with the ramifications of Integration... And how it has been problematic. How it has not translated into "freedom" of effective choices for us to choose our own "equally" adequate institutions or a process that would erect them...

(Ranting again...)

A NATION is a choice...
Well what people fail to realize , Brown vs the board, was in essence in saying that the education that black were getting was inferior to that of whites, not in intellectual ability and or not having great teachers with great material to teach, but the way education was funded, blacks schools were recieving far less, and this mean no school material, lack of books , all the material tools needed give a child an adequate education was denied to black people. When the decision came down , there was suppose to be first equal funding for black and white school districts and the exchange of students, some whites going into black schools , and some blacks going into white schools, but what happend it turned soley into some few black children intergrating into white institutions and whites rather than send their children to school with black started creating private schools for their children. And even other decided to build their own schools so that they can have exclusive white schools.So basically you end up with another form of segregation, with the black children stuck in the underfunded failing schools, while the white children get most of the funding for their schools.

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
In 1954, African America didn't see the treachery imbedded in the phrase "deliberate speed." It allowed evasion of the law to be made into a fine art. Now we can look at the phrase with the wisdom of experience, and not the wide-eyed gaze of hope. But that doesn't mean we throw the decision away. Most of the good that happened in education as applied to African Americans was the measurable result of "The Brown Decision."

The fact that the decision was not pure; that many, if not most, boards of education were not "of good intent" are not reasons to throw the decision away. What we are today is in large measure the result of that declision. Educated. Aware. Demanding. Challenging. Litigating.

Isn't it interesting that we stand on the shore criticizing the life preserver that saved us? That is freedom. That is good.

The legacy is a solid foundation on which to base future litigations. It is a 50-year documentation of the intent and behavior of European America specifically in reference to African America. It even documents, but one of, the many goods done by the NAACP.

PEACE

Jim Chester

You are who you say you are. Your children are who you say you are.

[This message was edited by James Wesley Chester on December 12, 2003 at 09:02 AM.]
my post wasnt to blame any of the work Thurgood Marshall or any of the Naacp staffs good work. I was merely speaking on the response the majority of people in america had to this decision. The litigation was great as was many of the other court battles that our predecessors faught. But that fact still remain as far as the outcome of these cases and legislation ,our children are still stuck in segregated underfunded failing schools. And the gap in education is just as wide and getting wider, for our children.

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
The Sociology of Education

The Brown vs. Board of Education case was imperative so that children and adult Americans of African descent could pursue education wherever they chose. It had little to do with desegrating schools and more to do with being able to exercise our free will. Why should a person restrict themselves to a predominately black school? Why should a person restrict themselves to patronizing only "black restaurants," "black water fountains" or toilets only "used by blacks?" Its really silly.

Of course the decision was an advancement for African Americans and as well as other minorities who would later join us in our struggle for basic human rights. However,the case cannot make the school system and its curriculums more culturally inclusive. The "school" or the "Academy" was originally created to support and transmit American epistemological values, culturally-specific traditions, and what they feel is important for American pupils to learn and know in preparation for American society. And if you are going to live in this society, it is impossible for one to completely isolate her or himself from the society and/or repudiate all of its existence.

Ultimately, African Americans are not dissappointed with the Brown vs Board decision or even with what happened as a result of the Civil Rights Movement. What leaves African Americans in constant agony is that they still feel very much EXCLUDED from a culture that is excessively Anti-African. They still feel ostracized and marginalized. They still feel as if they are invisible and unimportant to America, and on a larger scale, to the world. They feel it in the school, the media, on television, on the job, and in virtually every part of European-American Culture. They can feel the weight of oppression and hate for their Africanness. This is the crux of the problem and allowing a few blacks to attend a Harvard or Yale institution is not going to rid of us supremist attitudes on the part of whites and low self-confidence on the part of blacks.

[This message was edited by Rowe on December 12, 2003 at 10:13 AM.]
Brown v Bd of Ed was was a results oriented/legally fictional decision that was intended to benefit America as a whole and Black America in specific. It threw a bone to the integrationalists and avoided the real issue, the government's funding and providing public education.

The legal team understood early in the fight that the desired, and in hindsight, best result - leaving the schools alone but provide equal funding and services to the Black school relative to the White schools - was a non-starter. And they wisely understood that Marshall's argument, "We are harmed by not being allowed to be with you" was the only argument that could have appealed to the liberal/paternal element on the court.

That said, Brown was necessary decision.

I was in third grade when busing came to Cleveland, my home town. If you know anything about 1960's Cleveland, you know that the city literally has a river dividing Black and White.

The school administrators came up with a school pairing plan, where an eastside (Black) school was paired with a westside (White) school. About 60% of the Black students were assigned to transfer to the White school and about 30% of the White students were to transfer to the Black school. My school was paired with the poorest performing westside (White) elementary schools.

At the time, I was attending the school that was one block from my home. It's student population was 100% Black, with the exception of 1 White kid and 3 Hispanic kids. It's teacher/administrator composition was 100% Black, with the exception of the Principal. I recall that one of my textbooks stated that "one day we will travel into space" and this was in 1969. (Inferior, out-dated materials) Yet, the school was a model for elementary "major-work" (AP) education for entire county.

All of the Black students selected for transfer, including me, were in the major-works program. All of the White students selected for transfer were enrolled into the major works program. I guess that would have been okay, if the school we had been transfered to had a major work program.
"And if you are going to live in this society, it is impossible for one to completely isolate her or himself from the society and/or repudiate all of its existence."
------------------------ So far it has worked quite well for white Americans.

No one is talking about isolating from the rest of America, even though, we did just fine when we were, actually better than African America is doing today, even with all of the ills of America against us.

What I am trying to point out is that they intergrated to schools at the expense of our black children by closing every black school and bringing about intergration through forced busing. While the white communities and their schools and school ties stayed intact, the black communities lost all or most of their schools and soon after community after community lost its school ties as well. Brown v. Board of Education had good intentions, but the results layed the brunt of on the black community. It was the black community that had to give up so much for this to come about. There is nothing wrong with intergration per se, just the way it was went about. And black people having quality schools in their own communities does not mean isolating from the rest of America --they way whites have been doing since intergration and before ---isolating themselves from blacks in America. I just propose that all black schools should not have been closed down; which was done merely to keep white children from attending schools in black communities and to keep as many white children as possible from attending and /or graduating from a historically black school. If our children can be bused miles away from schools standing closed down in their own communities in order to enact intergration, then white children should be bused miles away from schools standing closed down in their own communities in order to enact intergration.

It's just funny how everything has to swing to the "white" in this country.
quote:
The Brown vs. Board of Education case was imperative so that children and adult Americans of African descent could pursue education wherever they chose. It had little to do with desegrating schools and more to do with being able to exercise our free will. Why should a person restrict themselves to a predominately black school? Why should a person restrict themselves to patronizing only "black restaurants," "black water fountains" or toilets only "used by blacks?" Its really silly.

ROWE:

If you're saying the Imperative was FREEDOM oF EDUCATIONAL CHOICE then "equal", adequate, effective and competitive "BLACK" schools are and should have been and should be one of those CHOICES!

What's really silly is not having that as the first and foremost of all Educational Imperatives.

You ask (in terms of racism) WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? ... and ... resign yourself to the fact that White people aren't going to change and that there is very little we can do to change them, in essence, then that makes having the effective option to EDUCATE ones self all the more important...

IF IT'S ABOUT *CHOICE* and FREEDOM...
Then the first act of freedom is self-reliance.

We can stop the extreme "GOOD" or "BAD" comparisons. No one is arguing that Brown was bad. If anything no one quarrels with the THEORY behind it but rightfully take issue with the PRACTICE of it. That doesn't mean that 'nothing' good came from it. That's silly... that extremist exaggeration.

Everything has its pro's and its con's.
Every action has a reaction. An effective plan has the ability to address the constant exchange of actions-and-reactions. Unfortunately, we made a brilliant act but at the time, IMO, didn't have a plan to both counteract the reaction of White America and stick to the core issue.

Knowledgeseeker laid out exactly what I am referring to as the action and subsequent reactions and more importantly what the core issue was.

Considering that there were Whites of good will then (and perhaps no shortage of them in education) then our strongest "Black" schools then with "better" funding, precipitated by a Civil Rights struggle on exactly that with *no compromise* - not to exclude 'integrating' "White" schools (you can set the percentage) - could still be functional today with our own internal control that would, hopefully, had use avoid some of the "failing school" situations in the inner-cities, etc.

HBCU's are and have been a valuable EDUCATIONAL CHOICE at that level right? Why not have that same kind of value from K-12?

Are HBCU's silly?

The issue is not "restricting"...
The whole purpose is having your own effective CHOICE first as well as other options.

How anyone can talk about Black people taking responsibility for themselves and not expecting or relying on White people - which would naturally extend to "their" institutions considering "institutional racism" - and not see this point is beyond me?

It's tantamount to just giving lip service to an idea or saying it's a desire but either not knowing what you are asking for or not accepting it because of a polar-mentality that for some reason can't see that FREE WILL is dependent on FREE CHOICE with a variety of OPTIONS, the least of all is the effectual FREEDOM to CHOICE your own.

And... this is not a hindsight issue... There were and always were these self-same critiques then and now...

A NATION is a choice...
Brown vs. Board of Education is another example of the failure of the Civil rights movement to do anything that involved them envisioning anything past the end result of their action. This case was not about us being able to go to school with white folk; this case was about the lack of resources that was available to the schools in the predominately Black communities. Rowe foolishly asserts that this case was a form of advancement for African Americans but never clearly show us how. This case was part of what has led to our current situation here in this country, it is truly ironic when you look at, how Black folk fought to attend school with white folk and after getting in their schools we complain about the lack of Blackness in their curriculums.

Today there is a clear understanding that it is better to build our own than force white folk to allow us entrance into what is theirs. Unfortunately, those that espoused the philosophy of doing for our selves were ignored, thus those of us who are here today are paying a heavy price and fighting fights that have already been fought and won but has subsequently been rolled back. Then they think we are ungrateful when we look back on what they did and say it has turned out to be a big damn waste of time and human life. Did I just say that!!! Yup... prove me wrong and like always I will take it all back.

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
Reply to Sunnubian:

Sunnubian: So far it has worked quite well for white Americans.

Rowe: Why would Europeans feel compelled to isolate themselves from their own culture, a culture in which they have created and in which they are the majority?

Sunnubian: Black people having quality schools in their own communities does not mean isolating from the rest of America --they way whites have been doing since intergration and before ---isolating themselves from blacks in America.

Rowe: Are you following the discussion? I haven't made any arguments against African Americans having a quality education or having African-centered schools and curriculums. In fact, I love the idea of African Americans having African centered schools with African-centered curriculums. I said that if one resides in America and then enrolls his or her child into an American school, one has to expect for the curriculums to be Eurocentric and that it is impossible to shield, protect, and/or completely isolate the African child from Eurocentric nature of public schools.

Sunnbian: I just propose that all black schools should not have been closed down; which was done merely to keep white children from attending schools in black communities and to keep as many white children as possible from attending and /or graduating from a historically black school. If our children can be bused miles away from schools standing closed down in their own communities in order to enact intergration, then white children should be bused miles away from schools standing closed down in their own communities in order to enact intergration.

Rowe: I agree all of the schools shouldn't have been closed. But perhaps African Americans did not have the vision or the money needed at the time to salvage the schools. It reads to me that you have done a lot more research on the Brown vs. Board aftermath than I have. What do you think they should have done with schools if they could have left some open?
Reply to Nmaginate:


Nmaginate: If you're saying the Imperative was FREEDOM oF EDUCATIONAL CHOICE then "equal", adequate, effective and competitive "BLACK" schools are and should have been and should be one of those CHOICES!

Rowe: Of course. That's precisely what I am saying. However, if somone desires for their child to a attend a school that is integrated. This person should have the right to do so.

Nmaginate: You ask (in terms of racism) WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT? ... and ... resign yourself to the fact that White people aren't going to change and that there is very little we can do to change them, in essence, then that makes having the effective option to EDUCATE ones self all the more important...

Rowe: No arguments here. Except that I hope you're not going to continue to, try, and upstage me with this 'racism' argument on every single thread. I certainly hope not.

Nmaginate: Everything has its pro's and its con's. Every action has a reaction. An effective plan has the ability to address the constant exchange of actions-and-reactions. Unfortunately, we made a brilliant act but at the time, IMO, didn't have a plan to both counteract the reaction of White America and stick to the core issue.

Rowe: I agree. I keep telling people, you can't have it both ways and you have to look at this from a macro-perspective. The Brown vs. Board case was about having choices. It was about African Americans ridding themselves of dehumanizing restrictions placed upon them as if they were children told where to go and what not to do.

Nmaginate: HBCU's are and have been a valuable EDUCATIONAL CHOICE at that level right? Why not have that same kind of value from K-12? Are HBCU's silly?How anyone can talk about Black people taking responsibility for themselves and not expecting or relying on White people - which would naturally extend to "their" institutions considering "institutional racism" - and not see this point is beyond me?

Rowe: Its interesting how people are rushing in defense of black schools, yet no one had ever doubted or questioned the value of HBCU's or black public schools in the first place! That is a separate issue to be dealt with. The topic of this thread is not about whether or not predominately black schools are better for African American children. Let's be clear. The topic is about the legacy of the Brown vs. Board of Education. But if what you are asking me is do I think African-centered schools are better for African Americans, I would say yes. However, if a African American, Asian, White, etc. desires to attend an integrated school, I believe they should have this choice, irregardless of my own personal points of view against it. Otherwise, I would be no better than the 'racist' that passes a law prohibiting me from learning, touching, patronizing, drinking, and/or eating in any establishments where "my kind" of people are not accepted.

[This message was edited by Rowe on December 12, 2003 at 07:53 PM.]
Reply to Faheem:

"Today there is a clear understanding that it is better to build our own than force white folk to allow us entrance into what is theirs."

The Civil Rights Movement had nothing to do with blacks wanting to push up on white people, be white people, or nothing of the sort. It was about having basic human rights, rights that every human being, irregardless of race, religious background, or gender should have. The problem is that many of you have some incredibly misguided views on what the Civil Rights Movement was essentially about. You think that it was all about black people trying to get up close to the white man. It had nothing to do with that. There were some activist who couldn't even stand the sight of whites, but they were not going to be treated like children. They were not going to have a group of people dictate to them where they can eat, sleep, live, and be educated. Period.
quote:
Rowe: Its interesting how people are rushing in defense of black schools, yet no one had ever doubted or questioned the value of HBCU's or black public schools in the first place! Wow! The topic of this thread is not even about whether or not predominately black schools are better for black children or not. I thought this topic was about the legacy of the Brown vs. Board of Education? But if you're asking me do I think African-centered schools are better for African Americans, I would say yes. However, if a African American, Asian, White, etc wants to attend an integrated school, I believe they should have this choice, irregardless of my own personal points of view against it.
Urrrrrrr!!!!!!

If your issue is choice, then why do you pit this as an either or issue? NO one, and I surely haven't has taken issue with integrated schools or opening up that choice. That's the legacy of Brown. Yet the unfortunate large scale abandoning pf Black schools (African-centered or not) is also the legacy of Brown.

No attempt to upstage. It was you who classified things as "silly"...

And I never said Black schools were "better". I only said that in terms of CHOICES and for you people who are so adamant about not "blaming" others for our problems that Black schools... adequate, competitively funded and structured, etc. should have/ should be among those CHOICES and the first CHOICE; hence, having no one to "blame" but ourselves if our children's education is not up to par.

"Upstage".... Roll Eyes

That's about the silliest one to date Rowe!

Hint: FIRST Choice... does not mean "only" choice or "better". By the same token, "integrated" doesn't necessarily mean better. And in the age old sentiment, WHY IS IT BLACK PEOPLE WHO HAVE TO INTEGRATE WITH WHITES and not the other way around?

What is self-reliance?
Just a meaningless term that's thrown out there or what? Something to talk about but not something to practice and to regard as a priority?

Please don't act like I don't understand what happened and what the purpose of Brown was... NOW, WOW!!! That's silly. Also to think that these very same critiques was not present then and equally as salient then is a one-eye open review of the history.

ROWE, you really need to stop making assumptions from what people say...

HBCU's are a prime example of self-reliance in terms of EDUCATIONAL CHOICE. I've asked the simple question as to why we haven't regarded at least some K-12 schools in the same way. THAT DOES NOT downplay the importance of "integrated" schools or begrudge anyone's "choice" of that option... one option... THERE SHOULD BE MANY viable ones. The least of which should be one's own.

(Because some doesn't argue a point the way you do does not mean they have the polar opposite view of yours...)

A NATION is a choice...
quote:
The Civil Rights Movement had nothing to do with blacks wanting to push up on white people, be white people, or nothing of the sort. It was about having basic human rights, rights that every human being, irregardless of race, religious background, or gender should have. The problem is that many of you have some incredibly misguided views on what the Civil Rights Movement was essentially about. You think that it was all about black people trying to get up close to the white man. It had nothing to do with that. There were some activist who couldn't even stand the sight of whites, but they were not going to be treated like children. They were not going to have a group of people dictate to them where they can eat, sleep, live, and be educated. Period.
Don't Insult Our Intelligence with BS like that!!

If Brown was all about "funding" then the force that was the CRM could have come to bear on not only integrated schools as an option but on VIABLE BLACK SCHOOLS as an OPTION as well.

It's not that hard.

The point being is Negroes had a second-class citizenship mentality and left all the planning beyond "immediate" relief in the hands of the White establishment which dictated how the THEORY of "integration" was to be translated into practice.

It's reeks of ignorance to think that Brown was all pro's and no con's... that White people were "transformed" overnight and was going to share their best with their darker fellow citizens.

Do you not understand that?
Do you not understand that WE integrated or rather assisted in the dis-integration of our own... because somehow (eventhough the issue was all about adequate funding/materials) we thought or acted like there was something inherently inferior with our own, thereby not insisting that it be kept intact and reinfused with viability and vitality?

THEORY and PRACTICE, Rowe.
We are not here "romanticizing" BROWN...
Yes!!! It brought about must needed changes (slowly after Whites figured out how they were going to avert a great loss from it and a plan to maintain, in essence, their own...) but again if HBCU's aren't a sign of "silliness" then neither should maintaining and fighting for invigorated K-12 Black schools have been.

We all know what the Civil Rights THEORY was... but... take a deep breath... and anaylze the PRACTICE.

Brown was about funding and overall adequate/competitive resources. Common sense tells you that it doesn't require abandoning Black schools then to get that. A second-class mentality does... By that I mean a mind set that the only demands we placed were those that Whites would "likely" meet or more specifically ones that we would leave totally within their CONTROL in terms of how those demands were met.

So as a result... what we got was what they were willing to give under the circumstances. Eventhough it represented a change, it did not represent a change that we orchestrated, dictated and CONTROLLED.

To defer to someone else that kind of CONTROL in the midst of a movement of that nature is what makes for a bitter sweet commentary on the CRM. We accomplished so much yet advanced so little.

That makes HUMAN RIGHTS all the more pertinent and meaningful in contrast to CIVIL RIGHTS...

Dispense of ridiculous, absolute, polar, extreme exaggerations... YES! The CRM was good but it had it's downside. FAHEEM highlighted it. And no one disputes or would defend the FORCED and WHITE CONTROLLED segregation practices.

But did you see that... CONTROL is the issue ROWE. Complete and total control over our destiny, our humanity is what is at issue. SEPARATE never was EQUAL... if it had been, outside of the racist brutality of segregation there would have been little to fight for in CRM. (That's a little exaggeration but the point is... the educational front would not have been an issue if it was EQUAL. Separate would not have mattered except maybe in the sense of diversity breeding mutual respect for black/white humanity.)

A NATION is a choice...
quote:
Rowe: I agree all of the schools shouldn't have been closed.

***But perhaps African Americans did not have the vision or the money needed at the time to salvage the schools.***

It reads to me that you have done a lot more research on the Brown vs. Board aftermath than I have.
THE VISION and THE MONEY with respect to the aim of the CRM is exactly what FAHEEM, SUNNUBIAN, KWELI4REAL, KNOWLEDGESEEKER and myself are talking about.

If the fight for CR had what we would call the proper "vision" or one focused on UNCOMPROMISING demands that address the actual issue at hand and not what Whites were reluctantly willing to do, then the money would have been there or at least been at the level were we could have been a step behind instead of light years behind to where in a generation of so with our own ingenuity we could catch up or surpass Whites on our own...

We traded immediate relief for perpetual control and long-term viability, IMO.

IF BLACK SCHOOLS WOULD HAVE BEEN LEFT OPEN then the same model of HBCU's, IMO, should have been adopted. Granted the funding would hopefully be there from our fight for CR, then whatever technical know-how, training of any kind, etc. could be solicited from America at large.

HBCU's have White professors right? They work there at the behest of the BLACK college under the mission and vision of the BLACK schools right?

That's it in a nutshell...

CONTROL the THEORY > the PRACTICE > AND the VISION.... aka the present and future.

A NATION is a choice...
Reply to Nmaginate:

"But did you see that... CONTROL is the issue ROWE. Complete and total control over our destiny, our humanity is what is at issue."

I'm all for anyone having total control over their destiny. But when you talk about a monolithic destiny, "our" destiny, do you mean to tell me that you are in the position to dictate to every black person what his or her destiny entails? Can you tell me about my destiny? Damn, then we need to get together because I thought only the Creator knew that. I'm just kidding. Don't have a baby. I know what you're trying to say man. But just answer this question though: Is it your contention that if someone wants to attend an integrated school, that they shouldn't have the right to do so? All black kids had better attend black schools because they are black. <---Would you pass a law based on this line of reasoning and rationale?
quote:
Is it your contention that if someone wants to attend an integrated school, that they shouldn't have the right to do so?
Do you have reading problems?

What have I said? Rowe?

You frame this in terms of CHOICE(s). I said an equally viable BLACK CHOICE was equally important. Deductive reasoning says that whatever other CHOICES there may be and that may be chosen are "EQUALLY" important.

C'mon ROWE!
My rationale is CHOICES mean CHOICES up to and including one's own as well as others. How much more plainly can I say that ROWE?

Get out of you EUROCENTRIC mindset of EITHER OR thinking.

CHOICES is a plural form of the word choice. It means more than one. FREEDOM to choose means having OPTIONS (plural) which dictate that there be more than one in terms of VIABILITY, etc. - i.e. one that's not substantively "better" than the other. The only difference would be the matter of individual preference.

So, ROWE, where is the viablity of the BLACK SCHOOL preference in today's K-12 schools?
Is that not the de facto reality that you are trying place on my "rationale" - i.e. monolithic choice. Oh! But I guess a monolithic White Choice is better than any mix of viable Black and White ones.

LEARN HOW TO READ TO COMPREHEND!

Control of one's destiny I speak to is not about monoliths... It's about determining what ones CHOICES (plural) are... be they integrated, predominantly Black or otherwise. I've said nothing more and nothing less.

LEARN HOW TO READ!
I've given you the perfect example of what I'm talking about by referencing HBCU's.

Are or were the maintenance of HBCU's some twisted, warped, rationale of a monolithic Black Consciousness? NO!

Quit being ridiculous and acting like you can't read. HBCU's have been seen as valuable both during and after segregation for a reason. Afterwards, they have been a viable and valuable CHOICE! out of many. I suggest no more no less on the K-12 level.

Show me where I have said otherwise or admit that you love to make aSSinine, untenable, and unfounded aSSumptions!
Rowe, What "basic human rights" was the Civil rights movement about. If it was about human rights should not it have been called the "Human rights movememnt?"

-------------------------
"We got to organize ourselves, We got to mobilize and there can't be no confusion in our collective solution, If not for ourselves, then for our kids, because we know who our enemy is!"

DPZ "for the hood"

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
[The Civil Rights Movement] was about having basic human rights, rights that every human being, irregardless of race, religious background, or gender should have.
SELF-DETERMINATION is a "basic human right" that the CRM did not grant.

That's reflects on the lack of VISION... you spoke.
quote:
But perhaps African Americans did not have the vision or the money needed at the time...
Let me play your game, Rowe. Which "African-Americans" (hmmm...) are you talking about? Certainly not the so-called militant, radical Black Power, Back-To-African Culture contingent. There was plenty of vision there. And always has been. As FAHEEM said:
    Unfortunately, those that espoused the philosophy of doing for our selves were ignored...
Civil Rights are determined and limited to the "civil" society inwhich you live. They are, in essence, the rights a country "gives" to its "citizens". Human Rights go beyond those that are recognized and merely granted along the lines of citizenship.

Let me put it to you like this. Hopefully you can see how this all fits together. You believe that we, as African-Americans, have a distinct culture, right. You would also believe that we have every right to preserve and develop our culture as we see fit, right?

You are also aware of how we came to be "Americans", historically (via slavery), by no choice of our own, right?

Well, international law (U.N.) recognizes Self-Determination as a "basic human right" and says the following concerning it:
    All peoples have the right to self-determination; by virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
Rowe, "African-Americans" never "freely determined" our political status, etc. in this country. It was all prescribed for and by [White] Americans be it via the Constitution or the Civil Rights Act. We did not negoiate the terms. We did not create, pass or sign the laws.

The CRM demanded rights in the terms of the American "civil" society - i.e. basically accepting whatever this country was willing to give us and, more importantly, how they wanted to give it to us.

That's how you get the one-way Integration where Black people abandoned (gave up) our own and White people kept theirs in tact - schools, businesses, etc. - as well as shared what little and how little they wanted to.

There is no "equality" in that. One group has/had more control than the other. Matter of fact, only one group had control... and that's the issue. Whites still have institutional control (domination/dominance) over Blacks.

The only way there can be "institutional racism" is for there to be "controlled" institutional exposure - i.e. only one effective institutional choice that is controlled by Whites (in this case) via legislation, etc. that fosters institutional arrangements that gives them the final say as to what institutions exist; theirs or theirs and others. Well, Brown vs. the Board of Education insured the former despite the "advantages" *integration* in terms of education meant.

What we don't know is how things would have turned out if the CR-Black Power Movement would have fostered the infusion of "equal" funding, etc. for Black schools as well as societal *integration* (public accomodations). IF it is your opinion that Black schools are "better"... remember, that's how you classified it) then I can't see how that can be separated from what is perceived as the righteous or what should have been the rightful aims of the CRM.

Unfortunately, that one "better" initiative was one that wasn't valued enough and henceforth not won.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Reply to Sunnubian:

Sunnubian: So far it has worked quite well for white Americans.

Rowe: Why would Europeans feel compelled to isolate themselves from their own culture, a culture in which they have created and in which they are the majority?

_______________________________ I meant that American whites feel compelled to isolate themselves from African Americans and other minorities in this country, and that they have successfully done so for a long time in this country.


____________________________________________________________________
Sunnubian: Black people having quality schools in their own communities does not mean isolating from the rest of America --they way whites have been doing since intergration and before ---isolating themselves from blacks in America.

Rowe: Are you following the discussion? I haven't made any arguments against African Americans having a quality education or having African-centered schools and curriculums. In fact, I love the idea of African Americans having African centered schools with African-centered curriculums. I said that if one resides in America and then enrolls his or her child into an American school, one has to expect for the curriculums to be Eurocentric and that it is impossible to shield, protect, and/or completely isolate the African child from Eurocentric nature of public schools.
________________________________________ It was not my intention to imply that Black schools ever where culturally any different than the white schools in America because even during segregation and now, children went to school to learn the same things and basically the same thing were taught and learned. It is racist mythology that implies that American Blacks and American Whites are so different from each other, or culturally different, when the truth is that Americans in general are and always have been socio-economically different, and not necessarily culturally, at least not beyond the cultural differences in the socio-economic stratification one is born and raised in in America.
____________________________________________________________



Sunnbian: I just propose that all black schools should not have been closed down; which was done merely to keep white children from attending schools in black communities and to keep as many white children as possible from attending and /or graduating from a historically black school. If our children can be bused miles away from schools standing closed down in their own communities in order to enact intergration, then white children should be bused miles away from schools standing closed down in their own communities in order to enact intergration.

Rowe: I agree all of the schools shouldn't have been closed. But perhaps African Americans did not have the vision or the money needed at the time to salvage the schools. It reads to me that you have done a lot more research on the Brown vs. Board aftermath than I have. What do you think they should have done with schools if they could have left some open?
_________________________________________________________________

African Americans had the vision, but the school districts had the money, money that they horded and distributed the bulk of to white schools and spent much lessor amounts on the black schools. The funding was controlled and manipulated by whites within the school districts to ensure that whites schools were well equiped to offer their students the best education. I do see the social impact of integration as being one with good intentions, however, it was primarily lack of adequate funds that kept the black schools inferior to the white schools, which could have been alleviated through simply giving the blacks schools their fair share of the funding in the first place, which was not being done; or better yet, equally funding alls schools in the district, which is still not being done to this day. It all boils down there being no great need for black children to attend white schools in order to get an adequate education, but the need for the funding to be equally distributed.

What the government should have done is make and Enforce laws against discrimination in employment, housing, and education and left the schools where they were and America would have integrated gradually on its own as it has done, without sacrificing every or nearly every traditionally black school in America. And if the school districts had evenly distributed funding through their perspective schools, then all schools would have and would be on the same, or basically the same level; anyone would have been able to go to the school closest to them and it would not matter if a school was predominately black, predominately white, or predominately whatever, because all schools would have equal amounts of funding, resources, and potential and be bound to the same anti-discrimation laws to protect any student attenting public schools. The schools would have been smaller and remained a part of the community instead of what we have now: Black children being bused miles away from their own communities to attend school, schools with hundreds, sometimes thousands, of students attending one school that has to be run like an impersonal corporation when dealing with that many students in one school, no open black schools in the black communities--giving the sublinial suggestion that only a predominately white environment can be considered adequate education, and not to mention the economic growth and development of any community that has quality schools that the Black communities have lost out on through this type of intergration.
Reply:

Nmaginate: I said an equally viable BLACK CHOICE was equally important. Deductive reasoning says that whatever other CHOICES there may be and that may be chosen are "EQUALLY" important.

Rowe: Then alright Nmaginate, as I have told you before, we are in agreement on this point. I see no reason why we should continue to debate over a point that both of us has made.

Nmaginate: My rationale is CHOICES mean CHOICES up to and including one's own as well as others. How much more plainly can I say that ROWE?

Rowe: Here again, we are in agreement.

Nmaginate: Get out of you EUROCENTRIC mindset of EITHER OR thinking.

Rowe: Nmaginate, what in the devil are you talking about? I haven't even said anything that shows a bias toward Europeans!?! My (and apparently yours as well) contention was and still is that it is anyone's right to attend whatever school they wish to attend.

Nmaginate: The only difference would be the matter of individual preference.

Rowe: Precisely! And everyone has preferences that they should have the right to exercise. That is what the Civil Rights Movement was all about.

Nmaginate: So, ROWE, where is the viablity of the BLACK SCHOOL preference in today's K-12 schools?

Rowe: The "viability of black school preference???" I'm not sure your sentence is worded correctly here. Are you trying to get my perspective on why I think no one voluntarily "chooses" to attend public schools where African American students are the majority?

Nmaginate: Oh! But I guess a monolithic White Choice is better than any mix of viable Black and White ones.

Rowe: That is not the topic of this discussion. However, to answer your question, an ideal school for me is a school that is clean, absent of rats and roaches, is managed well, has positively socialized students and teachers, an most importantly, an African-centered curriculum and coursework, including Math.

Nmaginate: Control of one's destiny I speak to is not about monoliths...

Rowe: On the subject of a single "black monolithic destiny," the reason why I spoke (half-jokingly) against it is because here is the deal. A group cannot have a monolithic destiny without a monolithic culture. African Americans are familiar with racism, they're familiar with Martin Luther King, but if you were to asks them what's going on in Western Sudan, who are the principal West African Yoruba deities, or what is the primary philosophy followed in the African Akan community, they haven't got a clue. In order for a group to operate and act collectively, the group needs a coherent culture, a systematic way of being and knowing.

First of all, Africa, I believe, is the second largest continent on the planet with over 150 countries on it. On this continent are a vast number of diversified cultures, thousands of languages & dialects, and many different belief systems. So we need to be careful when we talk about Africa. It's a continent with all kinds of people residing on it. And they have no interest in blending all of the cultures together to make one "monolithic" culture. However, those that are indigenous to the continent do have at least something in common: their African Cultural Orientation. Above all else, I think the most important thing that African people lost upon their arrival to the Americas was their cultural orientation. The British colonizers knew the ideological function of culture, that if you separate these people from their cultural orientation, they would lose their identities, and subsequently, their will to repudiate change and invasion.

For how can one possibly motivate a group of people to join in striving toward an "African Destiny" when they are quite settled and comfortable with European-American culture, and especially when they think very poorly of their African heritage? They no longer care about what's happening in remote parts of Africa or even how African people live and conduct themselves. They don't care about traditional African religions and cultures. And most of them are thouroughly convinced that there was no African life or civilization (prior to slavery) that is worth talking about. Until African Americans can accept and appreciate ALL of what makes them African and reunite with their African foundations, they will continue to complain about "racism," "having no solutions," and even "abandoned black schools."

[This message was edited by Rowe on December 13, 2003 at 05:10 PM.]
quote:
The last time I visited the forum, someone posted a topic asking the question: Do African Americans Have A Culture? It wasn't until later that I realized the remarkable point that this person was trying to make. In order for a group to operate and act collectively, the group needs a coherent culture, a systematic way of being.
I guess I can take that as a compliment and, hence, won't quibble over petty points on which I disagree.

If nothing else, I'll consider it an honest attempt on your part to understand where I was coming from. That's gratifying in and of itself whether you agree or not.

Keep bring the knowledge and references on THE SCHOLARS! I appreciate that!

Please know though, that when I speak of a "BLACK AGENDA" it doesn't have to reflect a monolith! Unless you can tell me how Europeans/White Americans are a strict cultural-ideological "monolith", I find it hard to see your point. The fact that they have different perspectives does not mean that there is not a COHERENT cultural WorldView at play with them... at least not the vast majority that effectually control their institutions.

They all LOVE THEIR COUNTRY and revere the "founders"... i.e. cultural coherence. They by and large believe in the American Dream = Cultural Coherence. Not to mention that Europeans in general believe in Euro-Dominance of the world.

Well... we'll have to continue this convo some other time. I don't agree with your premises most the time for several reasons. But that does not mean I don't respect you. I have to differ with you conclusion, for several reasons. The least of which is that speaking about African-American unity does not require us to be uniform - as in of the same exact mind with the same exact interest, etc. UNITY OF PURPOSE as in a well oiled machine with different parts with different functions... etc. Those "parts" don't perform the "same" function but the all work towards the same PURPOSE.

Also, I'll leave you with this - which is part of my pet-perspective but nonetheless relevant to this idea of an non-existent African-American Consensus. Of course, you know it's all in how you frame the "question":
quote:
Poll conducted... Americans respond to the following:
Item # 13: Would you be in favor of African-Americans having some degree of independent control over those institutions and services that most directly affect their own communities ? (see Figures 1 & 2)

Yes = 74.82% No = 14.35% Uncertain = 10.83%

African-Americans Only: Yes = 81.01% No = 9.69% Uncertain = 9.30%
If that has any validity then I feel it challenges your notion about being able to construct a "BLACK AGENDA"...
    Where there is no vision, the people perish.. Proverbs 29:18

    We've said, in essence, that the CRM represented a clear vision. Perhaps not the most thorough-going one but a clear, "We want that! We don't want this!" VISION, nonetheless.

    That's the problem now and as I see it all a part of the consequences of "integration". But there remains to a great degree a concept of "black" identity... conservatives would say it's expressed in 90% Democratic voting tendencies... hmmm...
Further, I solicited (along with others) a "BLACK" Agenda from our conservative brothers in all honesty to see them lay out what it is they see as important because I think there is at least some validity to what they champion and value the friction if for no other reason that it will stimulate change, I hope. If not within non-ideological then I was hoping that at least in terms specific to a "BLACK" context, that "they" would be able to "talk on the level" and lay out in a systematic fashion what it is they think, instead of in fragmented issue-oriented debates.... though I admit I have very little patience with them... (principally because they won't relinguish the ideo-speak...)

A NATION is a CHOICE...
(oh... since I brought it up... how is it that Many different Euro-settlers could come together under an "American" Agenda?? Let's start a discussion on that next time...)

See YA!

[This message was edited by Nmaginate on December 13, 2003 at 05:31 PM.]
Reply to Sunnubian:

Sunnubian: I meant that American whites feel compelled to isolate themselves from African Americans and other minorities in this country, and that they have successfully done so for a long time in this country.

Rowe: I know exactly what you meant Sunnubian, but what does all of that have to do with the point that was made? From the onset, African Americans are presently not in the position to do what whites are doing because African Americans are a minority in this country. Therefore, it should be expected that the public school system's curriculum will be Eurocentric, not Afrocentric.

Sunnubian: It is racist mythology that implies that American Blacks and American Whites are so different from each other, or culturally different, when the truth is that Americans in general are and always have been socio-economically different, and not necessarily culturally, at least not beyond the cultural differences in the socio-economic stratification one is born and raised in in America.

Rowe: I'm not sure of what you are trying to say here Sunnubian, but let me just say that its certainly not racist to acknowledge differences in culture. Cultural differences are not the same as genetic or biological differences. You do know the differences between the two, I hope. Although some both black and white anthropologists and social science scholars have revealed in their scholarly works some strikingly clear biological differences between Europeans and African peoples. In any case, the world does not consist of one big culture. Humans are diverse, just as diversified as other animals. After all, no two people are alike, not even twins. And it is nothing wrong with acknowledging our differences, despite what European have trained us to think about being different.

Sunnubian: African Americans had the vision, but the school districts had the money, money that they horded and distributed the bulk of to white schools and spent much lessor amounts on the black schools. The funding was controlled and manipulated by whites within the school districts to ensure that whites schools were well equiped to offer their students the best education. I do see the social impact of integration as being one with good intentions, however, it was primarily lack of adequate funds that kept the black schools inferior to the white schools.

Rowe: Again, I never made any statements that would even suggest that black schools are or were ever inferior to white schools. So unless you are simply making a point, I have no idea why you feel compelled to defend this position, especially when the inferiority of black schools is not even the focus of this discussion. The focal point of this discussion is the legacy of the Brown vs. Board of Education decision. Do you think integrating the schools, and integration in general, was advancement for African Americans and other minorities?

Sunnubian: What the government should have done is make and Enforce laws against discrimination in employment, housing, and education and left the schools where they were and America would have integrated gradually on its own.

Rowe: Do you actually believe that? Wow. In any event, Sunnubian the "government" didn't do anything. In fact, it was the government (a racist establishment) and America's dominant members that was the problem to begin with. The reason why African Americans had eventually attained any civil rights (human rights), is because of the time, effort, and the lives that were sacrificed fighting against the "government." The government didn't "give" blacks anything and if it were left up to them, you would still be using only black water foundations and black toilets! You people don't seem to understand that the reason why you have all that you have today is because of the invested hard work, never-ending struggle, and sacrifices that were made by African Americans themselves. There wasn't anything handed to them, nobody ask them, "Hey, do you all want some rights?" No. They had to demand human rights, ultimately a great number of people had to die for the rights that everyone else took for granted and most of us take for granted now. The problem is you are stuck shuffling around and pouting about essentially one aspect of the struggle, mainly, "why black schools couldn't stay black." That is an important issue. However, the Civil Rights Movement was about much more than this. Much more.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
Reply to Sunnubian:

Sunnubian: I meant that American whites feel compelled to isolate themselves from African Americans and other minorities in this country, and that they have successfully done so for a long time in this country.

Rowe: I know exactly what you meant Sunnubian, but what does all of that have to do with the point that was made? From the onset, African Americans are presently not in the position to do what whites are doing because African Americans are a minority in this country. Therefore, it should be expected that the public school system's curriculum will be Eurocentric, not Afrocentric.
____________________________ I never mentioned whether the curriculum should be Afro or Eurocentric. I know that before integration it was never Afrocentric in the first place. I personally think that the perfect curriculum for students in public schools would be one of "globalcentric", i.e., world history--everybody's history; the world's religons-all the major religons--world culture--all the world's major cultures; a curriculum that would leave an average white student know just as much about African and African American history as an average black student is required to know about American or Western history. Any public school curriculum should be inclusive of all of its citizens in a democratic nation.

Also, I do believe that African Americans, even though we are a minority in this country could be in a position to do the same thing that whites are doing for the mere fact that we do live in a free-enterprise nations and there are some civil rights on the books now (though they are being threatened); however, what keeps that from happening is the dis-unity amoung African Americans. If we were as unified as we should be, in a free -interprise nations with some civil rights living under capitalism and thinking globally, there would be not stopping African America, but there is always that dis-unity thing.
________________________________________________________________________

Sunnubian: It is racist mythology that implies that American Blacks and American Whites are so different from each other, or culturally different, when the truth is that Americans in general are and always have been socio-economically different, and not necessarily culturally, at least not beyond the cultural differences in the socio-economic stratification one is born and raised in in America.

Rowe: I'm not sure of what you are trying to say here Sunnubian, but let me just say that its certainly not racist to acknowledge differences in culture. Cultural differences are not the same as genetic or biological differences. You do know the differences between the two, I hope. Although some both black and white anthropologists and social science scholars have revealed in their scholarly works some strikingly clear biological differences between Europeans and African peoples. In any case, the world does not consist of one big culture. Humans are diverse, just as diversified as other animals. After all, no two people are alike, not even twins. And it is nothing wrong with acknowledging our differences, despite what European have trained us to think about being different.
____________________________________
_____________________I know that no two people, etc., are exactly alike, however, I merely meant that all Americans are primarily just that first, Americans. There is no extreme cultural differences between African American and White Americans; we eat the same foods, wear the same clothes, work in the same jobs, live in the same type homes, engage in the same recreations, read the same books, see the same movies, learn the same things in school, go into the same professions, etc., all to varying degrees, but essentially we are the same culture--American. The only cultural differences between blacks and whites in this country are about the same as the cultural difference between the north and the south, or the northern part of a particular state and the southern part, or the people who live in the warm climates and the peole who live in the cold climates.
_________________________________________________________________________



Sunnubian: African Americans had the vision, but the school districts had the money, money that they horded and distributed the bulk of to white schools and spent much lessor amounts on the black schools. The funding was controlled and manipulated by whites within the school districts to ensure that whites schools were well equiped to offer their students the best education. I do see the social impact of integration as being one with good intentions, however, it was primarily lack of adequate funds that kept the black schools inferior to the white schools.

Rowe: Again, I never made any statements that would even suggest that black schools are or were ever inferior to white schools. So unless you are simply making a point, I have no idea why you feel compelled to defend this position, especially when the inferiority of black schools is not even the focus of this discussion. The focal point of this discussion is the legacy of the Brown vs. Board of Education decision. Do you think integrating the schools, and integration in general, was advancement for African Americans and other minorities?
_____________________________________________ Well, I guess that I simply should have answered no, without any explaination as to why I felt that way, so my final answer is "No, I do not."-----It only sidetracked us, made us forget our own, neglect our own, dislike our own, etc., in our rush to assimulate into the predominate race, to be like white.


________________________________________________________________


Sunnubian: What the government should have done is make and Enforce laws against discrimination in employment, housing, and education and left the schools where they were and America would have integrated gradually on its own.

Rowe: Do you actually believe that? Wow. In any event, Sunnubian the "government" didn't do anything. In fact, it was the government (a racist establishment) and America's dominant members that was the problem to begin with. The reason why African Americans had eventually attained any civil rights (human rights), is because of the time, effort, and the lives that were sacrificed fighting against the "government." The government didn't "give" blacks anything and if it were left up to them, you would still be using only black water foundations and black toilets! You people don't seem to understand that the reason why you have all that you have today is because of the invested hard work, never-ending struggle, and sacrifices that were made by African Americans themselves. There wasn't anything handed to them, nobody ask them, "Hey, do you all want some rights?" No. They had to demand human rights, ultimately a great number of people had to die for the rights that everyone else took for granted and most of us take for granted now. The problem is you are stuck shuffling around and pouting about essentially one aspect of the struggle, mainly, "why black schools couldn't stay black." That is an important issue. However, the Civil Rights Movement was about much more than this. Much more.


______________________________________ I never said that the government gave us anything or that it was not initially the institutionalized racism in this country that hindered African Americans, I know much better that that. I am well aware of the sacrifices made by others so that my generation and children's and so on would be free to enjoy the same civil rights as any other Americans.

Also, I am not proposing that all the black schools remain black, merely that they should have remained open and that all schools should be integrated predominately by the make-up of the community that the school is in and that it should not matter if the school if predominately black or predominately white as long as all the the schools are equally funded and equiped to education the students attending and racism and discrimination of any kind is not tolerated or inherent within the institution.
A NATION is a CHOICE...
(oh... since I brought it up... how is it that Many different Euro-settlers could come together under an "American" Agenda?? Let's start a discussion on that next time...)

Ok, and the next time, I will tell you that I never said anything about Europeans not having a culture. I of all people know that Europeans have a very efficient monolithic culture with nationalistic and political objectives that are still very much the same as they were during the time of African colonization. I never spoke out against black people being self-sufficient and independent. I never said anything about black schools being inferior to white schools. In fact, no one even bothered to ask me about my point of view on any these issues. You simply thought that just because I support black people having the right to attend white institutions that I 'must be' against black indenpendency. I thought some posters would know me better than that. And how you could reach such conclusions, I will never know.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
A NATION is a CHOICE...
(oh... since I brought it up... how is it that Many different Euro-settlers could come together under an "American" Agenda?? Let's start a discussion on that next time...)

Ok, and the next time, I will tell you that I never said anything about Europeans not having a culture. I of all people know that Europeans have a very efficient monolithic culture with nationalistic and political objectives that are still very much the same as they were during the time of African colonization. I never spoke out against black people being self-sufficient and independent. I never said anything about black schools being inferior to white schools. In fact, no one even bothered to ask me about my point of view on any these issues. You simply thought that just because I support black people having the right to attend white institutions that I 'must be' against black indenpendency. I thought some posters would know me better than that. And how you could reach such conclusions, I will never know.

______________________________ No, I am not saying you are against black independency, I am merely trying to explain myself more clearly in my answers. I also am in support of black people having the right to attend white institutions, I just believe that in public schools in a democracy, it should be such that it does not matter if the school is predominately black or predominately white or whatever, and that would be the case if all public schools received equivalent funding--which was the real problem hindering black schools before integration and is still a problem that hinders certain public schools today, though now, not by race alone as it was in the past, but by location and class.
Reply to Sunnubian:

Sunnubian: I never mentioned whether the curriculum should be Afro or Eurocentric.

Rowe: Oh my goodness, Sunnubian!!! I know that you didn't man, but if you go back to the original discussion, that is what we were initially talking about. Perahps you need to go back and re-read it or something.

Sunnubian: I personally think that the perfect curriculum for students in public schools would be one of "globalcentric", i.e., world history--everybody's history; the world's religons-all the major religons--world culture--all the world's major cultures; a curriculum that would leave an average white student know just as much about African and African American history as an average black student is required to know about American or Western history.

Rowe: I think that would be a great idea Sunnubian. The kids would in school year round though and well pass 3:00pm in order to amass and be tested on all of such information, but I think that's great. I love curriculums that are culturally-inclusive. That's awesome.

Sunnubian: Any public school curriculum should be inclusive of all of its citizens in a democratic nation.

Rowe: The reason why some Afrocentrists believe that African-centered curriculums and African-centered schools are necessary, almost critical, is because there is so little that African-Americans know and understand about their own cultural and intellectual heritage. Other races of people are fully aware of their heritages, at least a great deal of it; therefore, we cannot compare ourselves with them. African Americans are a unique people with unique circumstances. Therefore, we need institutions that will uniquely address these issues and problems with our students head on. Some educators and sociologist insist that if you inform African-Americans students about their cultural legacy that this will make the lessons more interesting and culturally-relevant. Essentially, the kids can have something in which they can relate. For example, instead of learning about Christopher Columbus or Pythagoras (the esteemed Greek Mathematican), they can learn about Imhotep, a black man who is the world's first Mathematician and Scientist. Many of us do not know that Pythagoras, a white greek mathematician spent exactly 13 years in Egypt, learning all that he knew from black men who were the founders of mathematics, physics, astronomy, and science in Egypt's world renowed "Secrect Societies" (as they are called by Greek initiates, followers, and historians). They were "secrect" only to Europeans because for a long time the African Egyptians did not want foreigners and common people to have access to highly advanced knowledge. The mathematics that is taught to us today is really a greek mis-interpretation of what was originally a form of African spiritual intelligence, a highly developed form of knowing. All children need to know this, especially African American children who are often lead to believe that Africans are responsible for nothing that has to do with civilizaion. Therefore, an African-Centered school and curriculum doesn't simply serve as a "learning institution," but a place where kids can get accurate information in addition to the social and psychological rehabilitation that they need, that even some adults need.

Sunnubian: If we were as unified as we should be, in a free-interprise nations with some civil rights living under capitalism and thinking globally, there would be not stopping African America, but there is always that dis-unity thing.

Rowe: You are right my friend. You are absoultely right. The "dis-unity thing" is a direct result of not having a cultural foundation and orientation with which to support one agenda. Also, many African-Americans feel they cannot relate to Africa or African people any no longer.

Sunnubian: It only sidetracked us, made us forget our own, neglect our own, dislike our own, etc., in our rush to assimulate into the predominate race, to be like white.

Rowe: Well Sunnubian, honey you are certainly entitled to your opinion and by all means its yours to claim.

Sunnubian: I am not proposing that all the black schools remain black, merely that they should have remained open and that all schools should be integrated predominately by the make-up of the community that the school is in and that it should not matter if the school if predominately black or predominately white as long as all the the schools are equally funded and equiped to education the students attending and racism and discrimination of any kind is not tolerated or inherent within the institution.

Rowe: That was perfectly stated. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And if there's nothing else, I will now leave you with the last word. I've got to run as well.

References:

1. Stolen Legacy: Greek Philosophy is Stolen African Philosophy by George James

2. African Origin of Civilization: Myth or Reality by Cheikh Anta Diop

3. The African Unconscious: Roots of Ancient Mysticism and Modern Psychology by black psychologist Edward Bruce Bynum

[This message was edited by Rowe on December 13, 2003 at 08:55 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

Ok, and the next time, I will tell you that I never said anything about Europeans not having a culture. I of all people know that Europeans have a very efficient monolithic culture with nationalistic and political objectives that are still very much the same as they were during the time of African colonization. I never spoke out against black people being self-sufficient and independent. I never said anything about black schools being inferior to white schools. In fact, no one even bothered to ask me about my point of view on any these issues. You simply thought that just because I support black people having the right to attend white institutions that I 'must be' against black indenpendency. I thought some posters would know me better than that. And how you could reach such conclusions, I will never know.
I think no one "asked" because you were quite clear in TELLING us exactly what this was about.
quote:
  • The Brown vs. Board of Education case was imperative so that children and adult Americans of African descent could pursue education wherever they chose. It had little to do with desegrating schools (hmmm... I wonder how it's written up in the history books? brosmile) and more to do with being able to exercise our free will. Why should a person restrict themselves to a predominately black school? Why should a person restrict themselves to patronizing only "black restaurants," "black water fountains" or toilets only "used by blacks?" Its really silly.

  • Its interesting how people are rushing in defense of black schools, yet no one had ever doubted or questioned the value of HBCU's or black public schools in the first place! That is a separate issue to be dealt with. The topic of this thread is not about whether or not predominately black schools are better for African American children. (Is it a habit of yours to make up an argument YOURSELF - as in nobody else was making that argument - then take the liberty of tearing it down (yourself)? I think there's a name for that! Big Grin) Let's be clear. The topic is about the legacy of the Brown vs. Board of Education.
  • quote:
    Originally posted by Rowe:
    Ok. Good Nmaginate, and now explain to us, how does any of those statements, that you just read, gives you the impression that I'm against African Americans being self-sufficient or that African-American schools are inferior to white schools? How are you processing the information when you read it?
    You're giving me a headache. What are you going on about? Are you feeling "upstaged" again? I thought we were ending this... I certainly tried but since you insist, I'll persist.

    I'm trying to understand what's with the problem of connecting things that you have.
    Have you noticed how many posters here has framed this issue about the "legacy" of BROWN in terms of the preservation of Black Schools?

    I'm wondering why these questions you keep raising are an issue now for you?
    quote:
    Why should a person restrict themselves to a predominately black school? Why should a person restrict themselves to patronizing only "black restaurants," "black water fountains" or toilets only "used by blacks?" Its really silly.
    Despite your ridiculous term - *RESTRICT* -... ahhh!!! might having a predominantly Black educational system and by extension Black control social-constructs that can follow and feed from and to it amount to Black self-suffiency - i.e. Independence?

    Are you that much of a literalist that everything all the dots have to be connected for you?

    You said, in essence, Black self-suffiency through Black schools was "silly" because it would be "restricting" one's self... Your quote came well after I said the following:
    It's interesting that we can get all worked up about Vouchers, etc. but not about having schools that reflect our Liberation Imperatives via an Education we control from top to bottom.
    See, I've framed this whole issue in Black self-sufficiency and Independence [Liberation] terms with specific respects to Black schools. WHY? Because... if you provide the basic education for yourself you are being self-sufficient. And, if you are in control of the mission and vision of such education, not to mention other aspects... you are being independent.

    So, calling something like that "silly" tends to suggest that you are not in favor of such a thing or don't recognize the value of it because of your literalist mentality. I'm trying to figure out where I made the specific charge that you are against Black self-sufficiency? Where are you getting that from?

    Is it the case of you realizing that that's what your argument sounds like? I've only pointed out that a major part of "favoring" or "restricting" one's self to one's own schools is all about self-sufficiency - i.e. assuming that responsibility (and burden/obligation to make it "the best") is all about relying on one's own abilities to deliver...

    You definitely suggested that was "silly" as if drinking fountains and other public accomodations equate to the same thing. I most certainly hope you are intelligent enough to see the grave difference between controlling and maintaining the ability to educate (train) one's self and degrading, punitive and debasing type customs. There was nothing inherently "punitive" or debasing in Black schools under segregation. The whole purpose of "Coloured Fountain" was to be debasing and more or less punish people because they were Black. If not by the "inferior" accomodations themselves then by the humiliation of having accomodations that were intentionally not as not as "good" as Whites - i.e. as respectful and as courteous service(s). (Note: These "public" accomodations occurred in shared space and not "segregated" or isolated ones. Hmmmm.... might that make a difference in the "punitive" and "debasing" nature of those practices.)

    So, not to separate the idea of Black schools from those other accomodations shows a lack of discernment and, as such, your devaluing of a very fundamental component of self-sufficiency. I know I don't have to go Carter G. Woodson on ya... and talk about the Mis-Education of The Negro?

    The thing is that at the heart of the CRM when the movement turned more "militant", Black consciousness was beginning to deal with the crucial question of not only how well we were being taught (in comparisons to Whites) but what we were being taught and how that was relevant to how we related to society at large and what all that meant to our "Freedom Struggle".... (you've acknowledged that on some level)

    Note: By virtue of your grouping Blacks schools with those other accomodations that are inherently inferior by their very nature - i.e. nothing about taking the back seat on the bus and standing if Whites needed a seat can be construed as having value... you show your poor ability to make a distinction between essentially different phenomena. Black schooling was only "inferior" because materials and funding and nothing inherent in Blacks ability to teach, etc.

    Directly to your question:
    Framing this in terms of FREEDOM TO CHOOSE bascially the White option while not advocating, framing, or insisting on a viable Black option says what?

    The only reason per se for there to be a White Choice at the time was because what?

    Remember what you say is/was silly! Remember what you said this was all about! All of that speaks to what you think. No need for you to say things in exact terms...
    quote:
  • So, ROWE, where is the viablity of the BLACK SCHOOL preference in today's K-12 schools?
    [Sentence reads fine to me! I would think something someone PREFERS in theory would be VIABLE in practice in order for it to have any meaningful value. READ LIKE SO: Where are the viable options for what I think amounts to the best way (in theory) to educate ourselves in today's K-12 schools?]

  • Is that not the de facto reality that you are trying place on my "rationale" - i.e. monolithic choice. Oh! But I guess a monolithic White Choice is better than any mix of viable Black and White ones.

  • Is that last point one that you're taking issue with? WHere you think I said you thought Black schools are inferior to White schools?

    It would be better if you actually quoted the posts that YOU are "having a baby" about!! (I think you are imminently more qualified than I am to perform that task! Big Grin)

    You asked the following:
      Is it your contention that if someone wants to attend an integrated school, that they shouldn't have the right to do so? All black kids had better attend black schools because they are black. <---Would you pass a law based on this line of reasoning and rationale?
    I won't ask you where you got that crap from but that mentality of yours is what makes it hard to see and understand someone finishing what YOU started, not to mention your lack of reading comprehension and the contextual agreement of items within the close proximity within a post. WESTERN compartmentalism, I guess! winkgrin

    DE FACTO - aka IN REALITY! Smile - we have a RATIONALE that all Black kids "better" attend "WHITE" [controlled] schools, the [WHITE] AMERICAN MONOLITH which is enshrined in customary practices and legally allocated funds. You don't seem patently upset about that kind of "rationale" so obviously you see that and that alone as "better" in nature because it gives you a "choice".

    I've been waiting for you to describe what the OTHER [viable] choices are! I.E. One effective choice, the WHite choice = a MONOLITH!

    I don't need to repost or quote what I've said. You talked about CHOICE... I talked about CHOICE*S*... so tell me who's into monolithic, one is "better" than the other, therefore I want to the "freedom" to choose that *one* despite what it did/does to the other...

    Since this is already too long... (because I, apparently have to connect the dots as well as figure out what the hell you're talking about at the same time)... I just want to know why you are talking about "they" here in this post... hmmmm..... brotongue
    quote:
    Ultimately, African Americans [they] are not dissappointed with the Brown vs Board decision or even with what happened as a result of the Civil Rights Movement. What leaves African Americans [them] in constant agony is that they still feel very much EXCLUDED from a culture that is excessively Anti-African. They still feel ostracized and marginalized. They still feel as if they are invisible and unimportant to America, and on a larger scale, to the world. They feel it in the school, the media, on television, on the job, and in virtually every part of European-American Culture. They can feel the weight of oppression and hate for their Africanness. This is the crux of the problem and allowing a few blacks to attend a Harvard or Yale institution is not going to rid of us supremist attitudes on the part of whites and low self-confidence on the part of blacks.

    Who exactly were you talking to? And more importantly... WHO? Was talking about THEY?.... One of "THEM"? Oooooooooorrrrrrrrr ONE OF *THEM*? Big Grin

    MBM must have been on to something... thumbsup

    And where do you keep getting this "low self-confidence" stuff from? Stuff you read as an "outsider"? Or stuff you read as a "depressed" insider? DO YOU OWN A PROJECTOR? Big Grin

    [This message was edited by Nmaginate on December 14, 2003 at 10:04 AM.]
    Until we as a people control the educational institutions our children attend , we cannot expect these schools to give out children the adequate tools to make their individual lives better and give them the ability to use that education to improve the conditions in our community, we will contiune to be miseducated, undervalued and marginalized. We have to have a education that places africa at the center just as the cirriculum now places europe at the center

    "I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
    FYI, An article I came across during my readings:
    Houston students outscore others in big cities on first benchmark test
    By RON NISSIMOV
    Copyright 2003 Houston Chronicle

    SCORES BY CITY
    Percentage of public-school students in grades four and eight who scored at or above the proficient level on national assessments of reading and math skills in 2003. Proficient means solid academic work that shows competency over difficult material:


    District Grade
    4
    Reading Grade
    8
    Reading Grade
    4
    Math Grade
    8
    Math
    National average 30 30 31 27
    Houston 18 14 18 12
    Atlanta 14 11 13 6
    Boston 16 22 12 17
    Charlotte, N.C 31 30 41 32
    Chicago 14 15 10 9
    Cleveland 9 10 10 6
    District of Columbia 10 10 7 6
    Los Angeles 11 11 13 7
    New York City 22 22 21 20
    San Diego 22 20 20 18
    Source: National Center for Education Statistics

    Nationwide tests results released today showed that the Houston Independent School District ranked near the top among the nation's large school districts in some student achievement categories, and that HISD's minority students scored better than their counterparts in most categories.

    "Today is a proud day," said HISD Superintendent Kaye Stripling about the National Assessment of Educational Progress results, known as "The Nation's Report Card."

    "HISD is one of the leading school districts in America," Stripling added. "Clearly the children of HISD are learning."

    According to the NAEP, HISD fourth-graders ranked second in math among 10 urban school districts that volunteered to have their students assessed. HISD eighth-graders were third in math. The large districts were compared in math and reading tests administered to fourth- and eighth-graders.

    HISD officials were especially proud that the average math scores of black eighth-graders ranked first among the large districts, which included New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, D.C., Atlanta and Boston.

    "HISD is a 90-percent minority district, so it is very important that we do a good job of educating minority students," Stripling said.

    Historically, the NAEP, which is administered by the U.S. Department of Education, has compared test scores among states and not recorded the scores of individual school districts. But in the last two years, large urban districts have been given the chance to volunteer to be tested and compared with other large districts.

    HISD scored lower than state and national averages on the NAEP, but this is typical of large districts when they are compared in a pool that includes smaller and rural districts that don't have as many disadvantaged and minority students.

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