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I've heard members here talk about some black folks having a "victim mentality". Can someone please define this? How does this "victim mentality" square with the fact that in the 400 or so years that we've been here that we have largely been victimized? (Is this characterization off base?)

Is it me, or do those that throw this term out seem not to understand that our achievement here is in spite of the obstacles thrown in our path and not because there are none?

Victim mentality. What does this mean? What's the point?



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.

© MBM

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my thoughts are that some blacks that complain about the so called "victim mentality" are in denial. they are refusing to acknowledge the legacy of oppression that black folks are still dealing with today. they are trying to sweep under the rug what has happened to our people.

doing this may make them feel like they are better then the rest of us. it allows them to disassociate themselves from the real black experiance in america. they can finally be part of the "in crowd" and be accepted by white americans. it's natural to want to be part of an exclusive club that your parents were never able to join.

this may not be true for all but i believe this hold true for many.

yes i am a victim. to say anything different would be historically inaccurate. i am not dependent upon any political party to have my needs met. if a new party emerges and i think they have good ideas, then i will support it.
A victim mentality is one who is conditioned to expect, hardship, to be short changed, hated, oppressed, marginalized, looked over, victimized. In this state of mind one will often act based on preconceived notions that are often not consistent with what is really going on. This produces people who are hopeless and have a pessimistic view of life. For many, "victimization" is a built in excuse to not try and a way to cop out and absolve them from personal responsibility. If people are convinced that they need protection, they are likely to look to and support a politically entity that advertise itself as willing and able to provide security, it is to the political organization's benefit to maintain a culture of victimization for it's own legitimacy.

Once convince that you're a victim, you are absolved of any responsibility and feel excused to behave any sort of way toward the supposed enemy. Almost any act is justified as resistance, a defense against the enemy. For many of us Victimization provides the moral justification to destroy the apparatus of white supremacy around the world and in America.

The Palestinian suicide bombers and al-Qaeda's attacks on America who feel justified to take innocent life as a means of resistance and defense dramatize my point.

Morality becomes irrelevant when acting out as a victim.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
So what if one acknowledges these things as a part of their true reality, does that still make them a victim? Also, what if they succeed to a greater extent than those who call him/her a victim for stating their reality in that sense? What does that make their accuser? Pretty damn lame let me tell it........If pessimism is reality, should one remain delusional just to be positive?..acknowledging something and getting defeating by it is two different things....we should not confuse one with the other......don't ya think? Personally, I have faced allot of racist bs in my travels but it never stopped the show...should I just shut the fu-k up and be quiet negro in order to be more palatable to others? Hell no, now that is a house negro for ya.............
There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the wrongs that have been done to Blacks, in-fact it can be healthy. The problem is when people use it as an excuse to be irresponsible and don't want to be accountable for there actions. Such as when I hear people talking about a system that keeps black people down on drugs, yet I have never found anyone who have been force to take drugs.
____________________________________________________________________
Propaganda spreading over my name
Say you want to bring another life to shame - Bob Marley, Bad Card
OK Smile

After reading your post again Kevin, I see where you comin from.

quote:
So what if one acknowledges these things as a part of their true reality, does that still make them a victim? Also, what if they succeed to a greater extent than those who call him/her a victim for stating their reality in that sense?


You make a good point, I was just answering MBM question.

My family have been through a bunch of racist shiyt bet that. Esp my father's family right here in Red Neck Texas. He was born in 1913, he lost a uncle and brother because of racism but he always told me growing up to always honor the progress we black people have made. To take advantage of it, as you have Kevin opportunities our people back when did not have as young people during the Jim Crowe day. He wanted me to know that the world he grew up in is not the same for me. He did not poison my mind with bigotry and hate even though he always spoke of white people as Crakaz and PickerWoods, because he knew our family history speaks for itself and that would come on it's own. And he did not make a great example as far as his actions because he did go to jail a few times whooping on white folks, he truly had a hatred for white people but he did not desire his sons to feel the same way. However by his example I did pick up on his hatred for YT and for a long time I hated ALL white people. He did not have to inculcate in me bitterness, turn me into a victim without me being personally victimized by a conceptualized enemy, our worlds are not the same.

My point is many people claim victimhood and culture it without being victimized and because they see the world from a view of being a victim they make different choices in life and do not have the confidence that their efforts will be rewarded because of preconceived ideas that it will do them any good, therefore many folks cop out. They process what they hear and see from a fixed notion of being a victim and life becomes a self fulfilled prophecy. You know what, white people culture victimization too and you see the same results, poor white trash who don't desire to do better even when the opportunity is right in front of them, like getting a good education.

Why do you think some kids make fun of kids who make good grades, this comes out of a victimology, defeatism, taught to them as children by the things they heard from family members and homeys. They have already copped out because they were taught that they are in a fixed state of being treated unfairly.

Have a great day!

Obvious_1 said:

quote:
There is nothing wrong with acknowledging the wrongs that have been done to Blacks, in-fact it can be healthy. The problem is when people use it as an excuse to be irresponsible and don't want to be accountable for there actions. Such as when I hear people talking about a system that keeps black people down on drugs, yet I have never found anyone who have been force to take drugs.


Yes, tru Dat Smile

[This message was edited by JuneBug on April 30, 2003 at 10:41 AM.]
Sorry, but when ever a black contrarian pushes the "victimology" card, they always fail to actually PROVE that it is rampant and reified among black people.

I remember when John McWhorter in his book "Losing The Race" give an example of the black victim mentality. It's embodied in his elementary school teacher who gives an account of how badly she has been abused and discriminated against, and after all that still manage to maintain and hold a good job. His beef with her is that she SMILED at the end. Good LORD! Why the hell should a woman smile at overcoming the obstacles that was laid before her, doesn't she should always, ALWAYS, speak about black hardships in a non-triumpalist manner? Or better yet, doesn't she know that she's not supposed to speak about black hardships AT ALL, or else be labeled as a victim forever?

Sure, the Jews can talk about the Holocaust and how they've been affected by it and how Israel is a kind of atonement for that tragedy. Hell, they can even get reparations for it too. But not us, we're "stronger" than that. We need to suck it up and stop complaining. More black children are going into poverty? Don't complain. More black men are going to prison? We can't complain. The average black male income is lower than what white men were getting in the late sixties? Can't complain. If anything, those are the products of our own weaknesses and we need to learn how to go along to get along.

What we are talking about is the "victim mentality" I'm not talking about denying history or denying present day racism. We should never deny history or ever forget. Where did I imply that? Wink

Again, it's our desire to hold on to victim status when it is not the case. People make different choices when they perpetually think of themselves as victims.

Look at the problems we as a community have, we as a community have it within our means to solve those problems but if we continue to feed on the negative and pessimistic culture of victimization it becomes a self fulfilled prophecy because of the many choices people make out of a victim mentality. It is a 2 edge sword, yes we are victims of our past true enough but internalizing victimhood is also causing many of us to self destruct.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.
The "Victim Mentality" is the white way of making a victim out of those whom they have victimize by proclaiming the victim of their actions are only victims because they want to be and not because of the actions of the victimizer. Usually the one who is labeled having a "Victim Mentality" are the men and women who have come to grips with and realized the impact of historical oppression has had on the Black man and woman in America and in the Diaspora. The one who labels one as having a "Victim Mentality" is usually someone running from the history that makes the victim a victim. Victimizers are specialist on the history of other victimizers and can tell you all about what they did and how they did it, however when their victimization is mention they some how develop amnesia. Caucasians in America can tell you all about what Hitler did, Can tell you all about what happen in Cambodia, they can tell you what happen in Rwanda, even Serbia but they seem to be without knowledge as to what happen right here in America in the last 100 years.

I was listening to Sean Hannity from the Faux news channel and he was talking about all the crimes against humanity that has occurred in the last century, He mention Hitler of course, He mention Stalin, He mention Pol Pot and Saddam but he like most white folk in America do not see what has happen to the Black man and woman in America as a crime against humanity because that indicts America. In the case of other crimes against humanity there was always one man behind the action and was the voice of the ruling party i.e... Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and Saddam. However in the case of the Black man and woman in America and in South Africa our oppression was not only government sanction but practiced as brutally and equally by most whites in both countries. So there is no boogey man in our oppression the America government and South African governments and the white citizens of both countries were our Boogey man. Because we do not have a single person to Blame we have no choice but to put the Blame on the government of both nations and its citizens. Having said that, what person or people want that on their shoulder? Any talk about what happen in these nations within the borders of these nations brings about guilt to those who have willingly and unwilling benefited from our oppression. In order to escape the guilt and responsibility in doing the right thing and correcting the "original wrong" those that have benefited from our demise have resorted to blaming us for our condition and have recruited some of us to articulate why we are to blame. So begins the "Victim Mentality",

White folk today are victims as well, they are victims of their ancestors or those who came before them not doing right by the Black man and woman and thus have made life for them difficult and have put them in the most unGodliest of positions; having to defend the actions of their ancestors who are criminals and should be remembered as such and blaming those who suffer from the actions of their ancestors for all that is wrong.

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By all standards, some creatures are just plain strange, making us do double takes because their compositions or habits or appearances defy our sense of logic and our way of viewing reality. Take the wildebeest, the warthog, the hyena, the brown pelican, the Shar-Pei. These animals, seemingly wrought by committee, make us laugh or shake our heads. Another such creature, of the human kind -- and perhaps the strangest of all -- is the black Republican. "

Bill Maxwell

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
Excellent points Bro Faheem. Anglo America will plead the fifth in order to prevent self-incrimination, but they have no problem testifying to the guilt of others. They are truly hypocrites.

I do believe that there is indeed a phenomenon that fits the definition of a "Syndrome" that plagues some victims and people of crimes. I think that that makes sense psychologically, even though I think the syndrome is over applied for reason that many of you articulated. I think what is key here is to note the fact that the victim syndrome is ONLY born from the facts of being victims. Thus, he syndrome itself is simply yet another of the many predictable reactions that has manifested from the history of Anglo acts of oppression against African peoples. There are in fact many Psychological consequences or reactions upon black people that resulted from centuries of indignations, humiliation, degradation, manipulation and castigation. This syndrome is just another. It is just another reality that needs repair or reparations from the psychological, physical and economic disrepair done against our people by Anglos. We should ask ourselves why black people are the seeming only sufferers of this syndrom and not whites. White people also have a sydrome that developed from their contact with black people.....its called the "White Supremacy" syndrome!!! It results from always arranging things so that they come out on top.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.
I'm gonna chew on your well thought out post.

quote:
The "Victim Mentality" is the white way of making a victim out of those whom they have victimize by proclaiming the victim of their actions are only victims because they want to be and not because of the actions of the victimizer.


My first response is... it's not just a "white way", oppressors and slavers were also Africans who sold us into slavery, and the Tribal contentions exist to this day.

Should we also take vengeance on the Africans and Arabs who sold us into slavery? Should we demand reparations and justice from them also? We were victimized by our own race.

You speak as though crimes against humanity only occurred between whites and blacks, it's universal and those who were victimized through out history often spiral into more problems because many of the decisions and conclusions are based in hate and resentment, a victimized outlook on life which certainly cloud one's perception on the here and now.

But importantly it kills the zest for life and causes people to quit. Many can hate and blame others for all of their problems but the fact remains, no one will and can fix what has been done to us but us, we must be on point.

Why must we insist that we live life as if it is a serial event? Are you implying that we must hold on to hate, resentment and bitterness until we pay YT back or until he fixes our problems? We may never come to terms because justice may never come. Meanwhile where does this pessimistic and negative philosophy of life take us until justice comes?

One should guard against self destructive thinking such as a Victim Mentality because it clearly clouds the perception of the here and now as life is lived on a daily bases.

No one is stopping us from the daily decisions we make, all of us are free agents, the only thing that is holding us back is the defeatist victimology many have adopted because it's appeal absolved them of responsibility, it's the easy cop out.

No doubt we are affected by our past in America not too long ago but it is up to us black people to correct what has been done to us based on the love we have for us. If we are motivated by debased emotions then we will never get to where we as a community aspire to be. Because Hate is tied intimately to Victimology and defeatism is Self Destructive.

I know that many of you feel strong and substantial because of strong emotion of hate, resentment and bitterness but it is deceptive because it is the same agent that causes one to self destruct.

Those who think progress is ONLY gained through the sword of contention will always be found in contention and never aspire to the goal. Our focus should be on us, not PRIMARILY ON YT, hate, resentment and blame only serve as a distraction from what we should be doing for ourselves. Doing so does not let the past off the hook we can deal with that as well as making sure our priority are on ourselves because no one will do it for us but us.

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on April 30, 2003 at 01:51 PM.]
Not that Brother Faheem needs any help, but what are you talking about Junbug? Ever action creates a reaction and the catalyst from the subsequent oppression of black people via the trans Atlantic slave trade, was born from the European demand for slaves. Do not assume a ubiquitous and absolute definition of "slavery" that transcends space and time. If you study the history of West Africa prior to the Portuguese exploration into the cotenant, you will find a quite different phenomenon in Africa. IN fact, many African tribes and people did not have a distinct word for "Slave". Their term for "slave" was often synonymous with the term for "prisoner of war". But be that as it may, Africans did participate in the slave trade just as you currently participate in adopting an ideology that is counter to the interest of black people. The reason that they done so were born from the rewards the Anglos offered in exchange and the reason that you do so is the same.


First, it must be accepted as fact that laws of nature are immutable and govern all that falls under its umbrella, including humanity. Thus, we must accept the RULE OF NATURE as taking precedence over the rule of law and other human constructs. Secondly, we must apply nature's laws to all objects, items and entities that exist within nature, such as humans. Those relevant laws that set the foundation of analysis and understanding are: A) every action produces and equal and opposite reaction. B) That the present is 99.999% the creation of the past. C) Any object in nature removed from a state of equilibrium by a force requires an equal and opposite force to restore it back to a state of equilibrium.

Now these laws of Newton were PROVEN mathematically in the Physical realm and some will argue that the physical does not apply to humans. However, are humans not physical and does not energy drive human physical acts? Furthermore, these laws are likely INDEED UNIVERSAL LAWS, but cannot be proven without universal and complete knowledge and isolation of all variables in existence, which humankind is far from achieving.

Now, that is the foundation of my reasoning...my PREMISE if you will. Thus, it takes this premise to make inferences about the realities of consequences of human interaction. Hence, the equal and opposite consequence of African contact with the Europeans is that the Anglos rose economically and culturally, while the Africans declined in those same categories. The reason being that Anglos shifted the energies and resources from Africans to the Anglos, which enriched the Anglos and impoverished the Africans.


Now this follows directly with the laws of nature that I originally presented. It follows because it recognizes that the present state of the black world was created from the realties of the past, given that the present is the creation of the past. Next, it recognizes all the truths of Anglo civilizations and it actions upon the African continent and people for the last 400 years. It also honors the principle that every action creates and equal and opposite reaction. Thus, it sets the logical foundation that the wealth created for whites came as the equal and opposite creation of misery and poverty for blacks.

The LOGICAL SOLUTION, therefore, follows the rule of nature says that any object or entity taken out of its state of equilibrium by a force or action requires an EQUAL AND OPPOSITE force and action to restore the object or entity BACK to equilibrium and balance. Now, when you take this theory out of its abstraction and its theoretical state and map it to real life actions it manifest as Anglos giving BACK the value of energy and resources taken and accrued from Africans.....i.e REPAIRATIONS.

This is not the "Victim syndrome" that is driving my theory. It is "The syndrome of Nature" and balance and how to restore imbalances.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.
The sad part about your post JuneBug is that you make the same mistake many people do and that is thinking those of us who can and do articulate the ills and problems facing the Black man and woman are sitting around waiting on Caucasian people to do something for us. Telling our history and the role Caucasians have played in our current situation is not teaching Black men and women to be victims nor is it providing them with an excuse for any crimes or hardship that is a part of their life.

Our focus on exacting that which is due us from Caucasian people is not in any way a pass for those who also participated in the destruction of the Black man and woman. In all other cases where people have been the victim of their own kind those people bodies were killed and their mind, their history and their culture was left intact. It is only when you deal with Black men and women and whites and Arabs will you also find the systematic destruction of the mind, culture, norms and history of the people being victimized. You should also be mindful that whatever beef Black men and women have with Caucasian people here in America it is not limited to slavery, it has to do with all that has happen to us in this nation from the lynching, killings, the imprisonments, the rapes, the mis-education and the way racism has been institutionalize in politics, government and economics in America.

I think any resentment and distrust we have for YT as you call him, should not cease until YT has made moves to acknowledge, accept and correct "The Original Wrong". Why must we not only forgive and get over what has happen to us here in America but blame ourselves for it and allow the real perpetrator to walk away with out even acknowledging the crimes against humanity that has taken place. No one ever tell the Jews to get over the holocaust, but we are told to get over what happen to us all the time and then Black men and women have they damn nerve to say this to other Black men and women.

Do you think my thinking is "self destructive"? I can tell you my thinking have saved far more lives than it has destroyed. My thinking is empowering, my thinking does not allow the thinker to sit around and wait for someone to do something for him or her.

No one is stopping us from making bad choices and no one is stopping this government from participating in correcting its past deeds. Our thinking definitely should be on us and not on providing a defense for those who crimes are indefensible.

It is interesting how you went global when I said something was the "white way" however global thinking is never used when the issue of a nation helping restore a destroyed nation is mentioned. Make no mistake about it JuneBug the Black man and woman in America is a destroyed Nation, destroyed in America and has not been funded the way Iraq is going to be funded. If the destruction of Saddam Hussein Government warrants the use of Billions of dollars to rebuild it , Compare than to the destruction of the Black man and woman here in America and tell me how many billions should be used to rebuild our Nation.

-------------------------
By all standards, some creatures are just plain strange, making us do double takes because their compositions or habits or appearances defy our sense of logic and our way of viewing reality. Take the wildebeest, the warthog, the hyena, the brown pelican, the Shar-Pei. These animals, seemingly wrought by committee, make us laugh or shake our heads. Another such creature, of the human kind -- and perhaps the strangest of all -- is the black Republican. "

Bill Maxwell

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
We absolutely ARE victims. Victims of being forced into a country of absolute psychopaths. We didn't come here willingly and have been abused and ridiculed for 4 centuries. There's no words to describe a tribe of humans who beat the hell out of darker-skinned humans, called them every name from A to Z, hung them from trees and stuffed the corpse's mouth with HIS genitalia, burned them on railroad tracks, called them less than human and then had sex with the females and sold their children by these African females into slavery calling them mullatos or some other crap.

You know, there's a reason the Anglo cuts his hair and beard off. It's because if he lets it grow, he look like NO OTHER creature on Earth. I imagine the Native Americans had strokes back in 1620 when those Pilgrims arrived. I'll bet every day on the reservations they say: Damn, if only we'd been mean enough to have some "Shock and Awe" instead of some dag gone turkey. These Europeans are something else and the African in America can't do a thing without their approval. Shoot, here, you can't go to an African club to have a Bacardi, without them alllllll up in the mix.

We're victims because we didn't ask for this; it just IS and we can't do a damn thing about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will get back to this later.

Fuk it, let's just burn this Muthafukka Down, Right? Wink LOL

Faheem, I thought your post was sad as well. Let's rag on them Arab slave traders too Wink who showed up to take and sell slaves way before any white man was on the seen. Arabs are white in my opinion anyway or at least not much different in their regard for black people. I could say more but it really pisses me off that a Muslim would have the gall to point the finger at anyone regarding Slavery, you have ZERO credibility if you are Muslim in my humble but passionate opinion. I'll stop right there. Roll Eyes

Noah, you are just plain wrong about the complicity of Africans who FULLY supported the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. One Cheiftain killed mostly by impaling at least one slave on the morning of each day way before Trans Atlantic Trade came into full swing and the last Slave sent from the shores of Africa to Europe was like in the early 1900's. The British basically had to force Africans from sending more slaves to Europe. Our African people were just as guilty. Centuries before the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade whole tribes were dedicated to a slave class. Slavery was crudely practiced widely and greatly among our own centuries before any white man was seen in Africa.

Why are you afraid of the truth, why screw with it?

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on April 30, 2003 at 03:01 PM.]
Faheem, if the African-Americanized wants to build a Nation, he sure won't be able to do it here. We'll have to leave en masse. Doesn't seen anyone's willing to do that, that's why we're all here just crying and moaning and complaining. 2 million locked up worse than dogs waiting for the "Big-un". We just can't get enough. We loves Massa and Massa hates the air we breathe.
JuneBug you are a fool if you think I have given the Arabs a past on their history of abuse, rape and murdering of the Black man and woman. You still operate under notions that I have informed you to be incorrect. I may be a Muslim but I am a Black man first, and my loyalties are with Black people first and foremost. Understand?

Norland I do not recognize the phenomena called African-American, That is an oxymoron and two words that should never be combined. I don't know who you are referring to when you said "We're all here crying and moaning and complaining". I have not cried, moaned or complained; I have stated facts as it relates to history and how the Black man and woman in America got in the situation we are in. If you are crying then I suggest you stop it, If you are moaning, I suggest you stop it and If you are complaining I suggest you stop it. Telling the truth is not any of these things. The truth is just that; the truth. Speaking the truth is just that speaking the truth. Crying, Moaning, and Complaining is not speaking the truth.

Oh, Junebug if you are serious about burning this mutha down, I got the matches!! Wink

-------------------------
By all standards, some creatures are just plain strange, making us do double takes because their compositions or habits or appearances defy our sense of logic and our way of viewing reality. Take the wildebeest, the warthog, the hyena, the brown pelican, the Shar-Pei. These animals, seemingly wrought by committee, make us laugh or shake our heads. Another such creature, of the human kind -- and perhaps the strangest of all -- is the black Republican. "

Bill Maxwell

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
This excerpt from the book "Big Little White Lies: Our Attempt to White Out America" by Carol Chehade basically lays out why White/European America identifies with the Holocaust more than the slave labor and trade.

On the Holocaust v. Slavery

"Since we can't measure the scars of pain, we can never determine which was worse, the effects of the holocaust or slavery. Although the scars of pain are immeasurable, our racial preference to whose scars we are more empathetic to can be measured. Here, as in other areas of our thinking, White pain becomes more emotionally moving and important than Black pain."

Basically this woman goes on to say that Black's don't have the problem, but whites have the problem. God Bless Carol. So it's like if you're an abused wife or child. You may feel bad and have a low self esteem because of your experiences, but the person who is ultimately sick is the abuser and not the abused. Faheem you are on point!

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
Malcolm X, 1965
Speaking of slavery, Malcolm X has a good speech on Brother Malcom about the three components of slavery in the Americas. He broke them down in a speech at the Audobon Ball room. The three are Slave traders, Slave makers and Slave owners. He said the worst of these three were the Slave makers. If you read Lerone Bennett's "Before the Mayflower: A History of Black America" you will learn about the techniques used to make Africans slaves. You can bet it was hard work, too.

You can't separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom.
Malcolm X, 1965
quote:
Originally posted by JuneBug:
What we are talking about is the "victim mentality" I'm not talking about denying history or denying present day racism. We should never deny history or ever forget. Where did I imply that? Wink


Just look at your past posts. You say those who look to political entities for means of security suffer from a victim mentality. Yet you ignore how Americans having been attacked on 9-11 typically rallied around the President and his paleolithic ideology, and voted more Republicans into office because they engaged in scaremongring and accusing their opponents of not being "patriotic".

No, only blacks, Arabs and others who attack the white apparatus suffer from victim status, not white people themselves. Never mind that when white people are polled, they say they are more in danger of being discriminated against than blacks.

quote:
Again, it's our desire to hold on to victim status when it is not the case. People make different choices when they perpetually think of themselves as victims.


How is it our desire? Are you going to use that word as a catch-all whenever we bring up discrimination and current disparities blacks suffer?

quote:
Look at the problems we as a community have, we as a community have it within our means to solve those problems but if we continue to feed on the negative and pessimistic culture of victimization it becomes a self fulfilled prophecy because of the many choices people make out of a victim mentality. It is a 2 edge sword, yes we are victims of our past true enough but internalizing victimhood is also causing many of us to self destruct.


And where is this evidence that black communities aren't doing enough to help themselves? Once again, you are all talk and no play.

quote:
Should we also take vengeance on the Africans and Arabs who sold us into slavery? Should we demand reparations and justice from them also? We were victimized by our own race.


*Sigh*

http://learnet.palmbeach.k12.fl.us/AfricanAmerican/Unit2.pdf

In any case, you are making very thin analogies between African and Arab participation in slavery. Those African tribes who sold the slaves in the first place no longer exist, unlike the U.S. as an institution which was built by slaves (check out how the nation's Capitol was built.) Even though Arabs traded in slaves, you aren't going to find any cotton plantations on the Arab peninsula, therefore the economic gains aren't extensive as European slavery.

However, it is sad, pathetic and typical of a CONservative black how you deny the legacy of slavery by saying our complaints are somehow not valid since we don't concentrate our complaints everywhere. As if we should be suing Brazil for reparations instead of the VERY country who enslaved our ancestors.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
*Bro, i'm with you on that one....matter of fact that is what I feel about most broad castigations of black people I have heard from others.......


Hey, it must pay big bucks, right? I mean blacks who are right-wing has gotta be mollycoddled by the conservative apparatus in ways I can't imagine. I remember when I was at Boston University and went to a Republican Club meeting with some of my friends. Boy, they wined us and dined us and I and I just took it in step. Let it waste their money on me if they want, it's no skin off my teeth Big Grin
I can only imagine bro....and the minstrel show some of us put on has to be worth the money to them...........I saw an article in the LA Times where there were complaints that in california white republicans were asking black republicans to fetch their bags and wave down taxis at their state convention? Is that wild or what? I guess they knew who to ask.....and one guy said to hell with the blacks and that they need to get over it because the republican party is not catering to their nonsense or apologizing for jack.......simply amazing....how black people flock to them in this day and age.......Colin Powell and Tony Brown are the only two i've ever seen that seemed to be fairly independent of right-wing thinking that is clearly anti-black.....
quote:
Originally posted by JuneBug:
A victim mentality is one who is conditioned to expect, hardship, to be short changed, hated, oppressed, marginalized, looked over, victimized. In this state of mind one will often act based on preconceived notions that are often not consistent with what is really going on. This produces people who are hopeless and have a pessimistic view of life. For many, "victimization" is a built in excuse to not try and a way to cop out and absolve them from personal responsibility....

JuneBug consider the following...Our Ancestors were ripped from the only homes they'd ever known to be brought in America, the Caribbean and the Pacific like ANIMALS. You don't ask yourself, what would be the far-reaching ramifications of such a heinous act? They were considered less than human and I mean they were LEGALLY considered subhuman. They were whipped, lynched and raped like animals for centuries. They were cast out as unworthy of enjoying any economic benefits. They were denied an education and cast aside. After slavery we -their descendants- are still pushed into the bottom of the economic pole where consequently, large number of us are born and die in the ghetto or in wretched villages, where many of our men and women will not live past 25! With all this WE SHOULD NOT CONSIDER OURSELVES VICTIMS OF SYSTEMIZED DISCRIMINATION? With all that bloodshed how can we not be seen other than victims of years of oppression?? If we are still hurt and angry about something that occurred years past, how can you not expect us to still harbors anger for a people who treated us so reprehensively without calling us whiners or cowards? Are you so devoid of humanity and common sense to not understand why the majority of black people ARE and FEEL how we are today.. VICTIMS of OPPRESSION? And how can you blame us for our anger when the educational system in the west is devoid of anything positive about our Ancestors and the motherland?

quote:
Originally posted by JuneBug:
My first response is... it's not just a "white way", oppressors and slavers were also Africans who sold us into slavery, and the Tribal contentions exist to this day.

Should we also take vengeance on the Africans and Arabs who sold us into slavery? Should we demand reparations and justice from them also? We were victimized by our own race

History is defined as untruths and falsehood compiled by certain historians, which eventually become acceptance in academic society and later passed on to common citizens. You said it yourself slavery was universal, Africans weren't the only group who sold their own people, slave trade were prevalent among the whites right from Roman Empire until the birth of Europe nations. Such traces could be found in history about the Slav race (slaves) in Eastern Europe eg. Yugoslavia, Poles, Czechs, Russians and Bulgarians. Despite that cruel and callous slavery among whites, they are united for better development But you instead of highlighting and aggravate the role played by whites in displacement of our folks and harm caused to them, you rather chose to blame our forefathers!? In fact, it's very sad to see how deep you and some African Americans have inhaled those rubbish history, which demonized Africans from the same predators who built forts and castle along the coast of West Africa. Ask yourself who shipped those Africans to the New World and belittle them? As long as you and some African Americans stick to the white version, then our people and continent will be vulnerable for more exploitation. Already some African Americans are working for governmental secret services and US military to destabilize Africa. Where is the brotherhood with this arrogance?

"Let the image of God be African. Let the angels be African as well and paint the devil any color you choose, but never the color of the Negro race." A.E. Beyioku.
No one is denying, Junbug, that Africans were complicit in the trans-Atlantic slave trade. There is no denial of the truth on my behalf.
I think it is important to realize that it is human nature that guides the actions and behaviors of all humanity. There is not black behavior or white behavior that is the resultant of genetics, other than the evolutionary programming that designed our phenotypes to specific climates. Thus, any learned and practiced behavior can and does spread across borders and races.

I tend to think of the expansion of Europeans beyond the boundaries of Europe as being analogous to the spread of a virus or contagion. Just as a viruses use humans as host and spread by human to human contact, so does culture and language. Those infected with the virus then become carriers and spreaders of the contagion. Thus, if the Europeans brought a virus to a nation or people that had not had it before, those people will become infected and thus become complicit in the spread of that virus.

The Arabs and the Europeans infected Africans with the virus of human bondage for profit. The Arabs in Northern and East Africa and the Europeans later in Western and Southern Africa, spread this virus for nearly a thousand years. Consequently, Africans became infected and carriers of the virus, therefore making themselves complicit in the ravages upon the continent. However, there is little evidence that the virus was pandemic and epidemic to Africans prior to contact with Arabs and Europeans.

The virus of slavery was created and incubated in city-state and nation-states human configurations and came in many DIFFERENT forms and strains, just like most viruses. The vast majority of African people were not residents of city and nation states; but rather, clans and tribes engaged in substance agriculture or pastoral herding, nomads and hunter and gatherers. There were kingdoms and great empires, such and Ghana and Benin, but there is little oral history to suggest that Africans enslaved other Africans for reasons other than crimes and wars, prior to the infection of Arabs and Europeans and this was particularly true in West Africa.

It was not until trade routes began to traverse into the land of the Africans, that the virus of the acute form of slavery for profit, found its way to the black Africans. Trade and conquest are the most prominent ways that culture, science, languages, as well as, goods, transferred from one people to the next, like a virus. The Arabs and the European opened upon trade routes in Africa looking to sell buy or trade or barter. The Africans had Much Gold and other mineral resources AND HUMANS. The European and the Arabs traded what they had for what the Africans had.

In the beginning of the contact, a slave in Africa was usually one for the reason of crimes or as the consequence of a capture from war. The Arab trader likely offered something in exchange for the prisoner or slave and the African seller complied. In years, the demand for slaves would become so great, especially the Europeans, that it increased warfare between Africans just so they would have more prisoners to exchange and trade with the Europeans. Those tribes that initially traded with the Europeans likely disturbed the balance of powers and they would likely have received superior weapons in the trade with the Europeans. Thus, the other tribes were compelled to trade war and trade in slaves in order to get weapons to protect themselves against the other tribes who had advanced weapons. This created a snowball effect and plunged a continent and a people into an abyss.

Today, we see the effects of viruses spread from the European and Arab people. The virus of Europeans can be traced by following language, for where they have infected, they have left their language behind. Go to Africa and hear the number of Africans who the language of the Europeans. Look at all the Africans who speak English or French. Where, when and why did they become infected with these languages as their OFFICIAL language? Look throughout the world at the number of nations and people who speak the words and language of the Europeans. Look at the number of Spanish speaking nations in South America. This is evidence of the source and spread of a virus from Europe. Now look at the world and see the number of people speaking an specific African language as their OFFICIAL language. Most African nations do not even use THEIR OWN LANGUAGE as their official language, so most certainly not others. Tanzania, whose official language is Swahili, is the only African nation that I know of that uses an African language as it official language. However, Swahili is composed of many Arabic terms, as well as Bantu. Thus, showing the spread of the Arab influence, virus and culture amongst the East Africans.

African language is not spread through the world, thus proving that we have not spread this virus that plagued humanity. However, our BODIES have been dispersed from Africa to the Diaspora as evidence of the evil of others

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.
Faheem, what you said, "that you are Black First" helps.

From this point onward I will stop using that tactic with you when I get PISSED regarding your faith. Smile Until something else happens Roll Eyes It is your grace that stands out and I appreciated it. Perhaps I have become too bigoted toward Islam from all the stuff I've been reading about and compound that with all the News reports out of Africa and around the world.

Anyway, I owe you an apology. That is what GROWN FOLKS DO. Some of you are incapable of it therefore you have not matured yet. Wink

LOOK, people....

I am sick and tired of all the fukkin excuses.
I am sick and tired of all the fukkin alibis.
I am sick and tired of hearing all the bad reports regarding black folks. Like for example, the number one killer of black folks in my town is AIDS! WTF! Mad

We have fostered kids for 4 years now and I get really pissed to see that 90 plus percent of them in my area are BLACK! And when I read the family histories of these kids it makes me want to go on a killing spree! It's no wonder because 80% of black kids are born into single parent families and many are slipping through the cracks. Many of the parents have serious drug and behavior issues. It pisses me off. Look, if I were running the shiyt I would be kicking some AHZ'z, no excuses accepted dammit! Roll Eyes

I am sick and tired of all the fukkin whining, groaning, snotting, WE need to get off OUR ahz'z and do what we must to elevate our communities. This Blame Game Bull Shiyt is getting us NO WHERE!
I am a PROUD BLACK MAN and EXCUSES DON'T CUT IT with me when it comes to Black people simply doing right by one another, PERIOD.

And that is what sets me off about some of you, just excuses, alibis and absolving of responsibility, fuk that, it aint shiyt! All what many of us CONTINUELY do is LOOK BACK, and therefore we can't move FORWARD, and this pisses me off. Mad

Hey, I've been married for 20 plus years, care for 3 kids, 2 of my own, 1 foster son, an 11 year old black boy who I cherish and will soon be adopted by a nice black couple. Big Grin I will miss him Frown I did not make kids outside of my marriage. I never been to prison, been to jail though, been stabbed once, during my youth of course. Oh well I aint perfect Roll Eyes

And I know damn well the odds are stacked against us but we must EMBRACE responsibility, no one else is going to do it for US, NO POLITICAL PARTY, no one, BUT US, can I get that through your heads!

At this point I don't give a damn about what has been done to us, we need to take care of business, excuses and alibis will get us SUNK!

Where is the fukkin BLACK LEADERSHIP? They need to stop scrapping and bowing before the Democratic Party and do something to change the SELF DESTRUCTIVE MINDSET of our COMMUNITY.

There are too many BALCK MEN sitting on the side lines who need to get their ahz's out there and compete, no excuses, no I'm a victim Bullshiyt, therefore I quit. I am really disappointed with many of our BLACK MEN, some really trifling boys, not men.

That's right, I'm CASTIGATING, if you don't like it SO WHAT!

And another thing, my wife and I was talking about music this morning and we named all the songs we liked growing up during the 70's, each and everyone of them were LOVE SONGS, songs about staying together, getting back together, how they cherished one another. NEVER heard a song that DEMEANED AND RUN DOWN WOMEN.

Much of the lyrics of Rap Music are not good for our communities AND FOR OUR KIDS. We are willfully self-inflicting ourselves to make MONEY. Yet it is the same rappers who talk about how concerned they are for the Black community, BULLSHIYT! And what do I see, BLACK LEADERSHIP cow towing to these uneducated fools who can put a few VILE and DEBASED words together with a cool beat, when they should be CASTIGATED!

OUT

And thanks for reading and if I pissed you off that means you needed to read it Wink

The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off.

[This message was edited by JuneBug on May 02, 2003 at 10:54 PM.]
Junebug,
I appreciate what you have said in this and your earlier post about black victimology. I would like to add a few things that I think are important mitigating factors.

Firstly, I do not believe that any of us are truly a "free agent" because the self, a person, is a social (as well as a biological) construct. Thus, who I am and the choices that are available to me are not completely subject to my will or volition. This is one of the issues I deal with when engaging my privileged students. Issues such as whether ones mother was chemically addicted or utilized prenatal care; whether one grows up in a loving, nurturing environment with good nutrition and health care; whether one has access to good schools and has parents that value and provide for educational opportunities; whether one lives in a community riddled with drugs, violence, pollution, etc. I would reference again, the recent studies that talk about the number of black youth in severe poverty or the studies of the incredibly high percentage of children in areas like Harlem with asthma and other respiratory ailments.

These things persist. These things go beyond an individual making a decision that things be otherwise. And, these things, in my opinion, are related to racism and other structural and institutional forms of oppression.

Saying all of this, however, I do agree that as individuals, we still have some responsibility with respect to the choices that we make within the constraints placed upon us. It is not an either/or. It is a both/and.

With respect to resentment, bitterness, and anger; I think that it is important to feel them. Feeling them is not self destructive. What is destructive is when these feelings become misdirected toward the self (self hate, internalized racism, self abuse etc.), when they are repressed/suppressed (I would contend that it is not simply diet that contributes to things such as hypertension, heart disease, etc. in the African American community), when they are taken out on those closest to them(black on black crime, domestic abuse).

Again, it is about balance. Many of the rappers and the black leadership, as you said, could care less about 'their' community. But isn't this the message that we are bombarded with by the our market/consumer driven culture. Do for yourself; look out for number one; I got mine, you are responsible for getting yours; survival of the fittest. Isn't this consistent with the mentality of our national leaders.

God has told you, O man and woman, what is good; and what does the SOVEREIGN ONE require of you but to do justice, and to be compassionate, and to walk humbly with your God?
Interesting thread. But most of you have strayed beyond the point without realizing it.

The ONLY rules of natural law that applies in a discussion of black "victim mentality" are those regarding the unique human ability of self-awareness and freedom of choice. Those abilities confer RIGHTS to use them and RESPONSIBILITIES to use them. My oft-written about philosophy regards the matter thusly:

You are a legitimate VICTIM to the extent that the wrongful acts of others have robbed you of the basic human abilities/rights outlined above.

You are YOUR OWN WORST ENEMY to the extent that you still have these basic humans abilities/rights, but choose not to use them to whatever extent you can. This is the "victim mentality," when you blame others for failings that you have created by your own lack of proactivity.

All this talk about Arab and African slavers and applying Newtonian laws of physics to social phenomena (!) really have nothing to do with it. The "victim mentality" is, to me, more of an individual matter. Some people have it, some don't. I think Junebug was clear that racism often has robbed people of these rights and abilities. But especially in this day and age, most of us have them, full and intact.

But I will say that the line is sometimes a fine one. Here's an example, that I want you all to give your opinion on:

A man gets arrested for transporting crack on I-95. He got pulled over because the trooper thought he fit a "profile" that includes racial and non-racial features. He's locked away for far longer than he would've had it not been crack. He actually was transporting crack.
He complains that he's a victim of "the system."

Is he, or isn't he?
Yes and No,

One he is a victim of the system in that racial profiling was initially used to stop him and his vehicle. Since it has been proven that blacks and not whites are the continued victims of racial profiling. Second to artifically determined that some illicit drugs that are somehow more favored by a certain ethnic group as deserving of special jail time also makes him a victim of the system. If illict drugs are bad then all of them are bad regardless of the type and ethnic makeup of the majority of the users.

No, he is not a victim of the system because he was found with crack and sentenced to jail. While the initial actions that caused him to be found transporting crack are clearly suspect, and the fact that because its crack therefore the prison sentence might be harsher, the end result is that he was still transporting an illict drug and got what he deserved.
Great question Vox!!

quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

. . . the end result is that he was still transporting an illicit drug and got what he deserved.


jazzdog, I agree with you 99% Smile I'm not sure if he really got what he deserved though. Because he was stopped under racist (illegal, immoral, unethical) pretenses, it seems that maybe his sentence (despite the fact that he was doing something illegal) might not be "fair".

From time to time many of us engage in behavior that might not be 100% legal. Whether it is speeding, or being "aggressive" on our income taxes, or driving with more alcohol in our system than we should, or pulling the tags off new mattresses Smile or whatever. Most of us have at some point or another "taken liberties" with the law. Unfortunately, others of us are straight up criminals and flout the law as a profession. Either way, shouldn't we all have an equal chance at either being caught or not irrespective of any factors? If "the system" is designed to disproportionately catch and sentence blacks, then IMO the "fairness" of whatever sentence that person in our example gets comes into question.

Now, please don't misunderstand me. I do not defend illegal behavior in any way. More importantly though, I also do not believe that black people are somehow innately more prone to criminal behavior and that the disproportionately high percentage of us behind bars is a function, solely, of our predilection to illegal activity. For example, it is well known that whites use drugs at higher rates than blacks. Yet it is also well known that blacks represent much higher percentages of drug convictions and incarcerations. This is wrong and IMO calls into question the integrity of the entire system.

With that as context, even though the person is involved in illegal behavior, I wonder whether he is more a "victim" of the system than the other way around. He didn't grow the coca leaves. He didn't manufacture the crack. He didn't fly the crack into the country. He didn't distribute it. He's a pawn in someone else's grander scheme. If we were really concerned about crack/drug use, wouldn't we spend more effort going after the bigger players? I know I've rambled off topic here, but why is there no serious "War on Drugs" to parallel the one on terrorism? Could it be that our drug economy and laws are a conveneient way to neutralize a segment of the population that the powers at be feel needs to be controlled? Confused

I guess, as you suggest jazzdog, you can answer this question at a number of levels. Smile



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.


[This message was edited by MBM on May 01, 2003 at 11:23 AM.]
Hmmm.. Ok Riddle me this! Why is the history of the Black man and woman in America made irrelevant as it relate to our present day condition at the same time this rule does not apply to all things. Everyone will admit to the impact of things that has happen in the past in making America the great country it is, be it the forming of the constitution, the forming of great institutions to be educated, the instituting of a democratic government, the fighting of wars and freedoms given to its citizens. America history tells us how this country got to the position it is in today. Laws were passed; Bills were passed that helped in the continued formation of America. No one will discard the things that are part of the history in making America this great and only super power today.

The problem occurs when the opposite end of all theses things are made known. The rise of America was the fall of the Black man and woman in America. America has a foundation that is dripping with the blood of Black men and women and many other people, however since we are discussing the "victim mentality" as it relates to Black people I will focus mostly on Black people. How can any of you on one hand talk about the greatness of America and acknowledge how history have played a role in this nation becoming a great nation and on the other hand deny the adverse affects of what it took to get this nation in the position it is in today? This is the philosophy Noah espouses all the time; for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. The condition of the Black man and woman is the opposite reaction to the rise of America.

Some of you will acknowledge that thirty years of token effort by this country in no way can make up for the hundreds of years of abuse. Which bring me back to another point, why is the field of behavioral science so quiet on the effects of systematic and institutional racism in America as it relates to the Black man and woman. They have an answer for all kinds of behavior issues in this nation but have little or nothing to say about how the history of the Black man and woman in America continue to play a role in much of the current day behavior you see exhibited by Black folk in America.

I will say this you can take it or let it along; Black men and women in America do not have to make excuses, make up alibis, or even explain our current condition; History along can show us how and why we are where we are. Excuses only have to be made to free this country and its white citizens from doing the right thing and correcting "the original wrong". I asked again, if this nation need eighty billion to rebuild a nation they destroyed in one month how much is needed and how much time is needed to rebuild a Nation destroyed over a few hundred years, generation after generation after generation after generation. The victim mentality in America only exist in those who think this country and white America are being unfairly targeted by Black men and women who articulate the reason this nation need to help in the repair of the Black nation in America.

-------------------------
By all standards, some creatures are just plain strange, making us do double takes because their compositions or habits or appearances defy our sense of logic and our way of viewing reality. Take the wildebeest, the warthog, the hyena, the brown pelican, the Shar-Pei. These animals, seemingly wrought by committee, make us laugh or shake our heads. Another such creature, of the human kind -- and perhaps the strangest of all -- is the black Republican. "

Bill Maxwell

More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
Vox, I think we need to start by setting a solid foundation concerning the nature of existence. I think that it can be assumed that it is a truism that the first law of nature is survival. Thus, every living entity is by nature programmed to act and behave in such a way as to promote its survival first and foremost. This law is not lost in the nature of human manifestation of survival programming as everything that a human does is with a conscious or subconscious benefit/cost analysis that always promotes the action with the most benefit relative to the cost and not visa versa.

The theory that humans are choosing to and thus responsible for their social ills ignores this fundamental biological directive of survival and assumes that these humans have programmed themselves to self destruct. As I have mentioned in a post some time ago, it is only when a human is facing mental disequilibria, do they self-destruct themselves, for that is not the normal tendency of a healthy mind. People who are suicidal often display the self-destructive mental disequilibria as they have trouble mentally coping with reality and thus make the benefit/cost analysis that concludes that death is a better option than life.

People need to be cognitive of the fact that the choices people make in life are dependant upon the array of options that are available, known to be available or believed to be available. They will then chose the option, out of that array, that will be mentally calculated as to be in the best interest of the needs, wants, values or desires of the individuals survival. Of course there are other variable involved such as self confidence or lack their of, fear, bravery and a host of other factors that can and does influence an individual to act or not act upon a given option. However, it is the array of options that probably more than anything else, determines our choices for survival.

We all know of the two extremes: A life in the ghetto in poverty or a suburban life of wealth and comfort. Both are realties in America. Thus, the question is that why does the evolution of a life from youth to adulthood lead some to make choices that will produce the life of wealth and comfort and the other the life of poverty and discomfort? Certainly if you ask a young person which life they would prefer, that they would tell you that they would prefer a life of wealth and comfort over a life of poverty and discomfort. Thus it is obvious that unless these youth have mental disequilibria that they would chose the path that leads to the life of wealth and comfort.

As a general rule, but not an absolute rule, the difference between the person who makes it to wealth and comfort vs. those who end up in poverty and discomfort has to do with the different array of options available, known and deemed feasible by youth growing up in particular environments and cultures. All other things being equal, if you switch the environments, options and beliefs of the person who achieved wealth and comfort, in the youth years, with those that achieved poverty, their resultant lot in life would likely reverse as well.

The reality is that being black in America has presented a different array of options and belief than has been presented to Anglo America. This different array of options and beliefs resulted in the evolution of a different "Culture" for Africans in America. This different culture therefore presented a retarded and somewhat different value system that offered status and rewards based upon different criteria than in the larger Anglo culture. For example, for the longest success in the black community was manifested via clothing and cars as these were the material items that we could afford as third class citizens. These are the material items that MEN then used to compete for women in the black community. This contrast with the status image of the larger white society in which the bar of status and success was set much higher due to the boundless limits of white men in America. Thus, success in the white community manifested via titles such as president, vice president, senator, CEO and corporate and business elites who amassed wealth and fortune blacks could only dream about.

The consequence of the evolution of the "black culture" is that it stunted expectation via the conditioning and reality of centuries of discrimination. Consequently, status and success in the black community was easily achieved with the acquisition of money that could buy nice rides and fancy cloths, which would allow brothers to compete for nice females. This is another reality that we often are not cognitive of, which is the role that competition for mating choices plays in the choices that human beings make. This biological directive to mating is only second to the biological drive for survival. As long as men can successfully gain rank in the competition for the mating ritual with the alpha females, these males will be content. In the African American culture that evolved from oppression, the bar of what it takes to compete for the alpha black females is much lower than the bar for the Anglo competition for the alpha Anglo females due to the power of white males in this society. Black women, as a general rule, are not interested in Anglo men, so the do not represent a competitive threat to the black male. Thus, the only competition that black males have for the Alpha black females are other black males, who have been oppressed and kept at a lower level than his Anglo counterpart.

In conclusion, it is a falsity to assume that people are not making the BEST choices for themselves, as that is our programming as living entities. The difference in life choices is thus rooted in the array of options present and available in a given environment or culture.

The truth has the effect of sunlight upon vampires when exposed to the wicked. If one recoils and does not embrace the light of truth....they are likely vampires.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
jazzdog, I agree with you 99% Smile I'm not sure if he really got what he deserved though. Because he was stopped under racist (illegal, immoral, unethical) pretenses, it seems that maybe his sentence (despite the fact that he was doing something illegal) might not be "fair".

I cannot agree more with this statement. Questions of what one "deserves" and what is "fair" are not as simple as we oft try to make them.

An example, a student in my course on social justice wrote a personal narrative about getting stopped for excessive speeding. Concerned about loosing his license, he went to his soccer coach who was with the sheriffs department. Interesting enough, his coach had just gotten pulled over about an hour earlier than he, by the same officer, but was let go, because he was a buddy.

The coach then walked my student through what he should do, say, and wear for his court appearance. He was told to wear a coat and tie and encouraged to talk about being admitted to a good college. Unfortunately, the college was far from home, and how it would be a hardship if he did not have a car. He wound up with a fine, but did not have even one point put against his license. As you may suspect, this all transpired in a middle class, white suburban community.

Interestingly, the student was actually angry that he had to pay the fine, because his coach got off. When I asked him to imagine how things might have been different if he where not middle class, white, educated, had a friend on the force, ... he was clueless. So again, what one "deserves" and what is "fair" are not simple, objective concepts.

God has told you, O man and woman, what is good; and what does the SOVEREIGN ONE require of you but to do justice, and to be compassionate, and to walk humbly with your God?
quote:
Originally posted by JuneBug:
LOOK, people....

I am sick and tired of all the fukkin excuses.
I am sick and tired of all the fukkin alibis.
I am sick and tired of hearing all the bad reports regarding black folks. Like for example, the number one killer of black folks in my town is AIDS! WTF! Mad

We have fostered kids for 4 years now and I get really pissed to see that 90 plus percent of them in my area at are BLACK! And when I read the family histories of these kids it makes me want to go on a killing spree! It's no wonder because 80% of black kids are born into single parent families and many are slipping through the cracks. Many of the parents have serious drug and behavior issues. It pisses me off. Look, if I were running the shiyt I would be kicking some AHZ'z, no excuses accepted dammit!

I am sick and tired of all the fukkin whining, groaning, snotting, WE need to get off OUR ahz'z and do what we must to elevate our communities. This Blame Game Bull Shiyt is getting us NO WHERE!
I am a PROUD BLACK MAN and EXCUSES DON'T CUT IT with me when it comes to Black people simply doing right by one another, PERIOD.

And that is what sets me off about some of you, just excuses, alibis and absolving of responsibility, fuk that, it aint shiyt! All what many of us CONTINUELY do is LOOK BACK, and therefore we can't move FORWARD, and this pisses me off. Mad
....
And I know damn well the odds are stack against us but we must EMBRACE responsibility but no one else is going to do it for US, NO POLITICAL PARTY, no one, BUT US, can I get that through your heads!

At this point I don't give a damn about what has been done to us, we need to take care of business, excuses and alibis will get us SUNK!

Where is the fukkin BLACK LEADERSHIP? They need to stop scratching and bowing before the Democratic Party and do something to change the SELF DESTRUCTIVE MINDSET of our COMMUNITY.

There are too many BALCK MEN sitting on the side lines who need to get their ahz's ought there and compete, no excuses, no fukkin I'm a victim Bullshiyt, therefore I quit. I am really disappointed with many of our BLACK MEN, some really trifling boys, not men.

That's right, I'm CASTIGATING, if you don't like it SO WHAT!
.......
Much of the lyrics of Rap Music are not good for our communities AND FOR OUR KIDS. We are willfully self-inflicting ourselves to make MONEY. Yet it is the same rappers who talk about how concerned they are for the Black community, BULLSHIYT! And what do I see, BLACK LEADERSHIP cow towing to these uneducated fools who can put a few VILE and DEBASED words together with a cool beat, when they should be CASTIGATED!

OUT

NOT ALL BLACK AMERICANS are criminals, drug users or pushers, not all black Americans subscribe to hip-hop either! All you have done is make a blanket statement about all Blacks in America, not taking into consideration there are very productive well educated established African American running successful businesses.. Why do you feel this way? I've even been hustled by a couple unemployed African Americans for money. But I've never regarded them as lazy or worthless. More than anything, I felt that maybe, just maybe certain opportunities are not afforded to certain individuals. I am sick and tired of all of this complaining too. But look at the division among us, xenophobia in South Africa, Rwanda, Cote d'Ivoire...in the US, where some Black Americans dislike folks from Africa, the Caribbean and the opposite is true. BUT THE TRICK IS TO WORK TOGETHER SO WE CAN ALL DEVELOP! Look at Chinese, Europeans and so on with all their differences, they work together. THAT IS THE BASICS OF PAN-AFRICANISM! Don't hate something you don't understand but SEEK OUT THE ANSWER. The great Kwame Nkrumah rightly said "United people can survive. Only materiality can blind us to what is really important and the worthwhile fights." JuneBug trust Pan-Africanism will help us contribute the little each has to offer for a greater cause (not necessary to unite against whites), but to unite for A BETTER TOMORROW FOR ALL AFRICANS AROUND THE WORLD!

quote:
And thanks for reading and if I pissed you off that means you needed to read it Wink

I don't think anyone here is your enemy. We just come here to learn, to talk and to exchange views hence we MUST learn to agree to disagree.

"Let the image of God be African. Let the angels be African as well and paint the devil any color you choose, but never the color of the Negro race." A.E. Beyioku.

[This message was edited by Lipati on May 01, 2003 at 03:01 PM.]
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
A man gets arrested for transporting crack on I-95. He got pulled over because the trooper thought he fit a "profile" that includes racial and non-racial features. He's locked away for far longer than he would've had it not been crack. He actually was transporting crack.
He complains that he's a victim of "the system."

Is he, or isn't he?

let's not forget about the guy driving down I95 that happens to be black and not transporting drugs. Still, he was pulled over because he fit the profile, drugs were planted on him and he gets caught up in the system for a crime he did not commit. If you don't think this happens then you are blind to what happens in America. If you want to dig into a state that has a reputation for this, try Texas.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JuneBug:

And another thing, my wife and I was talking about music this morning and we named all the songs we liked growing up during the 70's, each and everyone of them were LOVE SONGS, songs about staying together, getting back together, how they cherished one another. NEVER heard a song that DEMEANED AND RUN DOWN WOMEN.

Much of the lyrics of Rap Music are not good for our communities AND FOR OUR KIDS. We are willfully self-inflicting ourselves to make MONEY. Yet it is the same rappers who talk about how concerned they are for the Black community, BULLSHIYT!

yeah that's true about the music we hear from some rappers. let's just remember that black people are not the only ones that make horrible music. have you listened to some of the rock songs that are out? i listened to a lot of rock and metal music and some of the lyrics are just as bad if not worse. we always hear about rock stars dying from a drug overdose. however, we don't hear the white community complaining too much about their music industry.they would rather focus on hiphop music. i wonder why?
Why is it that when the problems that plague too many Black communities are being discussed, "White people do it too" statement is made? The lives of White people it not a standard that should be aimed for but a standard that should be exceeded if we are to make the drastic changes needed prosper as a race. So if White folks have problems let them solve it we are here to dicuss black issues and I don't see a need to cloud it by bringing them into the picture.

____________________________________________________________________
Propaganda spreading over my name
Say you want to bring another life to shame - Bob Marley, Bad Card
This is a very good thread...

I could comment on a lot of what has been said but, considering the wealth of the opinions, I would have to exhaust a few volumes to do justice to this topic.

The "VITCIM MENTALITY" is by far not exclusive to nor fully descriptive of the Black Experience or contemporary Black expressions of frustration. MLK and Malcolm X were NOT trying to abdicated Black Responsibility by confronting the injustices of America and its pecular relationship to African-Americans. Likewise, most of the Black voices that continue in that vain are not asking for White America to solve the problems of the Black community - which happens to be tied to the larger white society since we have "integrated" - but instead are trying to expose the systematic effects that adversely prohibit Black development.

Sure there are those who may actually say, "That's just THE MAN trying to hold a Brother down!" But, not taking responsibility for one's own short-comings and blaming some one else for one's own problems IS NOT an African-American trait that no other share. That's a characteristic of immaturity and denial. Spend some time with teenagers of all races and you'll see that. The same holds true for ANYONE who has "not succeed" regardless of race.

Allow me to piggy-back on Faheem's charge:
NO ONE claims that European Jews are trying to profit of their "VICTIM MENTALITY" when they charge nearly any criticism of them or Israel as ANTI-SEMITIC! ....

What's really funny about that is that [1] Jews or Judaism is a religion NOT an ethnicity which Europeans Jews have fostered via their Holocaust victimization and through the creation of Israel; and [2] ARABS are themselves SEMITIC and are perhaps more semitic by definition than the European Jews who run Israel and promote Jewish views worldwide.

That's my tangent...
(I'll hopefully get to what I really wanted to say next.)

"No person is your friend who demands your silence, or denies your right to grow." - Alice Walker

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