I've tried a bit, but can anyone find any information that compares how the black middle class has fared recently versus what we know about the white middle class declining? My guess is that the black middle class has done better than the white middle class but I can't put my finger on any numbers to substantiate that.

© MBM

Original Post
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:

Black Middle Class vs. "American" Middle Class?

What's "American"? "White"? Aren't African-Americans AMERICANS too? Confused


An aggreagate of all Americans versus African Americans.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Empty Purnata:

Black Middle Class vs. "American" Middle Class?

What's "American"? "White"? Aren't African-Americans AMERICANS too? Confused


An aggreagate of all Americans versus African Americans.


Oh, now I get it. tfro

In comparison to other middle class communities of other races, unfortunately the Black Middle Class seems to be busy trying to emmulate the White Middle Class. A community of selfish, over-privileged "rugged individualists" with that tired old "conservative Protestant work ethic" of "everyone pull yourself up by your own bootstraps".

Pesonally, I think African-Americans need to get away from this "middleclassness" mentality. We should be concerned about improving our Community, and dismantling the opressive elements of the Establishment.

Being "middle class" is not good enough. Contrary to political Conservative rhetoric, being middle class or rich does not solve everything. Being rich does not mean that we have "made it". The Black Middleclass needs to send a message to other middle class community in America by showing that being middle class does not = "free" or "independent".

TRUE freedom, independence and brotherhood comes from what I call Communal Wealth. When your community at large is socially progressive, socially just, politically stable, financially wealthy ("wealth" is a much different concept than "rich"), and has communal work ethic and brother/sisterhood.
To be clear - the point that I am trying to illustrate is that Con Feed's rants about the problems of black culture are really a result of classism and poverty in America that transcend race. Since we know that the white middle class has declined over recent years, if the black middle class has increased or decreased at a smaller rate than the white middle class - then whatever issues CF has with black people can be attributed to the effects that ALL middle/working/poor Americans suffer from at the hands of elitism/capitalism/classism etc. My point is that "black culture" is actually working for us and probably to a far greater degree than for other cultures.
quote:
the problems of black culture are really a result of classism and poverty in America that transcend race


MBM:

I am really flattered at the being the basis for so many of your posts. I figured that by now you could at least represent my position more correctly.

Founding Premise: Some people reside inside of a system that organizes resources and creates wealth. Some people reside outside of such a system.

The challenge is to CREATE a system that generates wealth and a high standard of living for the people that are of interest to you balancing this demand with other values that are important to you (environmental health, suppression of corruption, enforcement of individual and property rights).

The economic position of any subgroup of Americans is nothing more than a summation of the economic standing of INDIVIDUALS who fit your profile.
"Whiteness" in and of itself does not produce wealth. THE SYSTEM that they have ordered and then applied racial discrimination to determine who sits where in this system has determine who gets the benefit. STILL - THE SYSTEM HAS PRODUCED THE WEALTH not THE FACT THAT THEY ARE WHITE.

I keep pointing to what the Asians are doing because I see the SYSTEM that they are operating all the while being in the "container" of this broader system of the United States.

I still can't reconsile the drive by Blacks for removal of all barriers in employment to remove the "glass celing" and the recent information from an aquaintance that in opening up his new Subway shop he hired only Black people as employees. It seems that we seek to have it both ways.

There is more evidence present that PEOPLE TAKE CARE OF THEIR OWN than you can provide showing that they will work in the best interests of AMERICA and all AMERICANS. (This is why I know that Empty will never see his SOCIALIST paradise in a country that has multiple races without the state providing the strong arm to force people to share when they are otherwise not inclined to. Of course his socialist taking points said that THERE WILL BE NO STATE in the socialist utopia that will one day come. Socialism exists in an ant farm, not among humans that have intelligence and bias and pride)

As America sheds blue collar jobs an increasing number of people will have a slide in their standard of living. The wages of these blue collar people were driven up both by their UNION advocacy and the fact that their companies HAD THE REVENUES TO PAY THESE PRICES because they could charge their customers a higher rate to pay for the labor costs BECAUSE there was no ALTERNATIVE LABOR POOL THAT COULD EFFICIENTLY SUPPLY THE LABOR

But the White collar folks are next. The opening of communications between the USA and the rest of the world has allowed the backend processing of work to take place nearly anywhere around the world.

These companies are doing what YOU have proven that you do - SHOP FOR THE LOWEST PRICE FOR GOODS so that you can keep more money in your pocket.

[b]Back to your original point
- Blacks in America don't have the educational attainment that Whites and (increasingly) Asians in this country. This limits us in regards to what jobs we are able to gain access to.

RACISM AMONG PEOPLE WHO CONTROL THESE ELEMENTS OF THE "SYSTEM" PROVIDES THE SECOND DISQUALIFIER FOR BLACKS to gain access to these jobs.

Regardless the education that the Black man has HE WILL STILL BE REQUIRED TO FIT IN TO THE GENERAL ENVIRONMENT OF THE COMPANY. I recall a few years ago on a previous message board that my friend KEVIN said he didn't have to GET ALONG WITH THE WHITE FOLKS THAT HE WORKS WITH. He just needs to come in and do his job and it is HIS JOB performance should allow him to advance.

This might be the case in jobs that focus upon individual performance. THIS IS NOT THE CASE with management jobs that require you to interact with people and to obtain performance out of them. You will be FIRED because you are not making full use of the COMPANIES RESOUCES - it's people.

Black people face a challenge of having to adapt to the CULTURE that is present within the jobs that they work. In companies that have a bureacratic management structure promotions are based on the general sentiment that management has about you based on your performance. YOUR PERFORMANCE is based on what PROJECTS THEY GIVE TO YOU. If you are given crappy projects that don't have risk to the company's bottom line then you will never get a chance to shine. YES THERE ARE SOME INTERPERSONAL AND RACIAL factors in who gets these projects.

In summary - it is my view that THE CULTURE of the company is going to remain as it is. The culture itself is not necessarily "white". It is about PROFITABLITY AND POWER.

The best way that Black people can shift our "curve" to the right where our median point of income looks more like White folks is to make sure that we are focused upon doing things that generate INCOME and maintain control of the ECONOMIC RESOURCES IN OUR OWN COMMUNITY.

Right now I don't decide if my mortage will be paid - the person who can retain or lay me off does. The best way to operate is to keep this power as close to home as possible and not OURSOURCE it to someone else. The Black community has a large amount of money - it just flows out of the community too quickly. That store owner or restaurant owner that does not live in your community will utlimately take you money and spend it with someone else as well.

If the American middle class goes down then those who reside on the lower decks will drown first. THE CHALLENGE IS FOR YOU TO RESIDE IN THE CAPTAIN'S BRIDGE so you remain above the water line AND YOU DRIVE THE SHIP AS WELL.
CF...do me a favor and post my quote when you speak on my behalf..and all that bullschit you are saying this morning is obvious..black people have been moving forward and upward for years...but it is funny to watch blkCONS speak in a vainglorious manner then aid white racist right-wingers in decreasing black opportunity. The reality of it is that black people should never have gotten involved with any issue that adversely affect their own...so all the talk is just window dressing to me.....nothing substantial, nothing measurable and nothing that provides at least projections that equal the performance of past policies. I don't let people fuck me over systemtaically and then think they are going to gloss it over with pie-in-the-sky rhetoric. Again, keep my damn name out of your mouth unless you quote me....you are notorious for assigning people a dumbed-down mindset that you turn around and rebut yourself....it is a tired weak azz tactic that demonstrates a lack of credibility on your part. And yes, negroes who grin to advance usually lack the skills and educational level that many of us in here do....there is a thin line between having social skills and coonin....i witness it all the time in my travels and consider those types the true shame of the race (here's a good time to post that picture of frenchy from Full Metal Jacket). The only systematic way for us to expand the middle class is to reach new heights of educational attainment.....and it is VERY OBVIOUS who really has the best interest of black people in mind and who is full of shit.....it really is.

And as so far as management is concerned, conformity and performance levels can be embedded in systems with the use of workflow, enterprise resource planning (ERP) and other collaborative technologies. Hell I have been teaching in MBA programs online since 97 and have never seen a student in many cases...but if an entire degree program can be facilitated without personal contact, so can most other organizational functions....there are many items I have had to manage that I emulated the online classroom structure to help facilitate. People need to concentrate on their skill levels more than loyalty or fitting in with the company philosophy......I have been in environments where degreed engineers were treated like garbage and tossed out when no longer needed....previously they were the cornerstone of the organization. The days of loyalty are gone and azz kissing never got most people more than a couple of extra dollars and flunky status...the key is to diversify one's skillset in both the technical and managerial sectors....hence the advent of degree programs such as technology and telecommunications management...the same thing in one educational track that used to require degrees in both areas of study...i encourage all of my young students and older ones too...to position themselves as that person that bridge gaps in organizations...if you are a person that can convey technical capabilities to managerial personnel and managerial objectives to technical personnel.....you're not going to have to really sweat it as tough as those limited to knowledge in only one of those sectors.....and that is the role an educator must play in the higher realms of learning....a teacher first.....but one who teaches others to leverage their knowledge for competitive advantage also.......
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

I keep pointing to what the Asians are doing because I see the SYSTEM that they are operating all the while being in the "container" of this broader system of the United States.


What are the great acheivements that Asian Americans make in this country? Where is the strong bloc of Asian Americans in Congress and American politics? Where are the Asian CEO's of Fortune 500 companies? Who are the great Asian American artists, entertainers, writers, musicians? How is the Asian American community supporting their native Asian countries, communities, people?

I guess you speak admiringly of this community because in large part they are segregated from the mainstream of America. That is what you would have for African Americans.

I'll put up the achievements of the African American community against those of the Asian American one any day.
quote:
I guess you speak admiringly of this community because in large part they are segregated from the mainstream of America. That is what you would have for African Americans.


All except for himself.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
What are the great acheivements that Asian Americans make in this country? Where is the strong bloc of Asian Americans in Congress and American politics? Where are the Asian CEO's of Fortune 500 companies?


True, these are sadly too absent from the Asian-American Community.

quote:
Who are the great Asian American artists, entertainers, writers, musicians?


There are good Asian-American musicians, artists and entertainers, I'm not sure I would say the entertainers are "great" (as in universally notoriable). Just like Afrian-Americans, Asian-Americans also face a glass ceiling in this country as well. They are expected by White Americans to be nothing more than businessmen and scientists. Just keep serving YT and keep their noses to the grind.

I think some Asian-American activists call it the "Bamboo Ceiling".

quote:
How is the Asian American community supporting their native Asian countries, communities, people?


There actually are some Asian-American support groups for native Asian countries. Some Chinese-Americans, for instance, are becoming quite Sinocentric with the rise of China.

quote:
I guess you speak admiringly of this community because in large part they are segregated from the mainstream of America. That is what you would have for African Americans.

I'll put up the achievements of the African American community against those of the Asian American one any day.



Damn straight. African-Americans are stuck under the thumb of poverty, ignorance and established racism, and Asian-Americans are stuck under the thumb of "model minority" House Niggerism, social ostrization, lack of self-representation in politics, business and pop culture and Minority vs. Minority games meant to pit both ends against the middle (which CF plays right into).
To be clear, it is not my intent to deride the Asian American community in any way, just to compare it to the achievements of the African American one. CF constantly shits on African American culture while praising Asian American culture. Since he also seems to like to talk about "results" - then let's see them. If we are so dysfunctional why are we out-performing them; this while also enduring a myriad of additional obstacles to our success?
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
To be clear, it is not my intent to deride the Asian American community in any way, just to compare it to the achievements of the African American one. CF constantly shits on African American culture while praising Asian American culture. Since he also seems to like to talk about "results" - then let's see them. If we are so dysfunctional why are we out-performing them; this while also enduring a myriad of additional obstacles to our success?


African Americans are out-performing Asian americans???
We outperform them in politics, and representation across the board, but Asian Americans make more income than any other group including white americans. And they do excellent when it comes to education.
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
To be clear, it is not my intent to deride the Asian American community in any way, just to compare it to the achievements of the African American one. CF constantly shits on African American culture while praising Asian American culture. Since he also seems to like to talk about "results" - then let's see them. If we are so dysfunctional why are we out-performing them; this while also enduring a myriad of additional obstacles to our success?


African Americans are out-performing Asian americans???
We outperform them in politics, and representation across the board, but Asian Americans make more income than any other group including white americans. And they do excellent when it comes to education.


So they get good grades and get good jobs. Where is the impact of their achievement on American society? Again, I have no interest in denigrating the Asian community. CF makes the connection between culture and achievement. He constantly praises their culture and assassinates ours. I simply ask the question - if their culture is so wonderful and if culture and achievement are connected, then where is the impact in America of that superior culture?

CF likes their culture, I believe, precisely because they are not fully integrated into the mainstream of America. He would have that for us, no doubt.
quote:
I simply ask the question - if their culture is so wonderful and if culture and achievement are connected, then where is the impact in America of that superior [Asian] culture?
Constructive Feedback?? Sunnubian?? Comments on the actual question at hand?

quote:
What are the great acheivements that Asian Americans make in this country? Where is the strong bloc of Asian Americans in Congress and American politics? Where are the Asian CEO's of Fortune 500 companies? Who are the great Asian American artists, entertainers, writers, musicians? How is the Asian American community supporting their native Asian countries, communities, people?
And that set of questions make up one whole question to the tune of the one quoted, in bold, above.

Now, with Asian-Americans "making more income" than any other group and excelling in education... YOUR ANSWERS?

As for these blanket statements:
quote:
In a thorough study of Houston's Asian American population, Dr. Stephen Klineberg confirmed what sociologists have long known about the advantaged backgrounds of Asian immigrants. "The survey makes it clear that Asians have been relatively successful in Houston primarily due to the educations and middle class backgrounds they brought with them from their countries of origin," Klineberg says. "One of the key messages from the survey is that we have to discard the 'model minority' stereotype that is so often applied to Asians in America. [It overlooks] the fact that a high proportion of Asian immigrants come from an occupational and educational elite." (5)

Furthermore, U.S. immigration policy has long been discriminatory, favoring immigrants with professional skills and higher education. (6) This policy began as early as 1907, when President Theodore Roosevelt and the Japanese government negotiated a "Gentlemen's Agreement" restricting the exit of unskilled Japanese laborers to the United States. (7) Asian immigration has been heavily restricted for most of this century, and has only recently become liberalized.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-aamodel.htm
So please make sure you are comparing Like Sets in every demographical sense. And even with that... YOUR ANSWERS?

quote:
Asians make the nation's highest median family income. But this statistic doesn't tell the whole story. Asian families have a higher percentage of their members employed in the workforce, so their family income is naturally higher. Also, the U.S. Census does not distinguish between Japanese-American citizens and Japanese residents in the U.S. who maintain their Japanese citizenship. Therefore, this figure includes many highly paid Japanese businessmen in the U.S. on extended business. (8)

Asian-Americans aspiring to job promotion are also familiar with the "glass ceiling." According to the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, Asian-American men born in the United States are 7 percent to 11 percent less likely to hold managerial jobs than white men with the same educational and experience level. Median income for Asian-Americans with four years of college education is $34,470 a year, compared with $36,130 for whites, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. (9)

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-aamodel.htm
I think the economics statistics are a bunch of garbage. This is what I think should be supplied:

Divide the country into 12 groups by income. Take the bottom 90% and divide them into 9 groups, 10% each. Take the top 10% and divide them into 3 groups, 9%, 0.9% and 0.1%. It shouldn't be difficult to figure out which group Bill Gates is in, but who else is in there with him. LOL. Anyway, I want income and NET WORTH within each group.

One thing wrong with the entire economy is this lack of emphasis on NET WORTH. Every 12 year old should know NET WORTH = ASSETS - LIABILITIES.

Up with REAL capitalism. lol

umbrarchist
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
To be clear, it is not my intent to deride the Asian American community in any way, just to compare it to the achievements of the African American one. CF constantly shits on African American culture while praising Asian American culture. Since he also seems to like to talk about "results" - then let's see them. If we are so dysfunctional why are we out-performing them; this while also enduring a myriad of additional obstacles to our success?


African Americans are out-performing Asian americans???
We outperform them in politics, and representation across the board, but Asian Americans make more income than any other group including white americans. And they do excellent when it comes to education.


So they get good grades and get good jobs. Where is the impact of their achievement on American society? Again, I have no interest in denigrating the Asian community. CF makes the connection between culture and achievement. He constantly praises their culture and assassinates ours. I simply ask the question - if their culture is so wonderful and if culture and achievement are connected, then where is the impact in America of that superior culture?

CF likes their culture, I believe, precisely because they are not fully integrated into the mainstream of America. He would have that for us, no doubt.


You would rather have blacks unemployed,high murder rate, terrible test scores, ect, over not fully being integrated?? Hmm...
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
To be clear, it is not my intent to deride the Asian American community in any way, just to compare it to the achievements of the African American one. CF constantly shits on African American culture while praising Asian American culture. Since he also seems to like to talk about "results" - then let's see them. If we are so dysfunctional why are we out-performing them; this while also enduring a myriad of additional obstacles to our success?


African Americans are out-performing Asian americans???
We outperform them in politics, and representation across the board, but Asian Americans make more income than any other group including white americans. And they do excellent when it comes to education.


So they get good grades and get good jobs. Where is the impact of their achievement on American society? Again, I have no interest in denigrating the Asian community. CF makes the connection between culture and achievement. He constantly praises their culture and assassinates ours. I simply ask the question - if their culture is so wonderful and if culture and achievement are connected, then where is the impact in America of that superior culture?

CF likes their culture, I believe, precisely because they are not fully integrated into the mainstream of America. He would have that for us, no doubt.


You would rather have blacks unemployed,high murder rate, terrible test scores, ect, over not fully being integrated?? Hmm...


You missed the point. CF praises Asians because they have few expectations of America. In his mind they are "model minorities" because they are quiet and unobtrusive. African Americans built this country. We've been here longer than the average white person here. We have every reason to participate in all aspects of this country and have high expectations that it should work for us in the same way that it works for others.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Sweetwuzzy:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
To be clear, it is not my intent to deride the Asian American community in any way, just to compare it to the achievements of the African American one. CF constantly shits on African American culture while praising Asian American culture. Since he also seems to like to talk about "results" - then let's see them. If we are so dysfunctional why are we out-performing them; this while also enduring a myriad of additional obstacles to our success?


African Americans are out-performing Asian americans???
We outperform them in politics, and representation across the board, but Asian Americans make more income than any other group including white americans. And they do excellent when it comes to education.


So they get good grades and get good jobs. Where is the impact of their achievement on American society? Again, I have no interest in denigrating the Asian community. CF makes the connection between culture and achievement. He constantly praises their culture and assassinates ours. I simply ask the question - if their culture is so wonderful and if culture and achievement are connected, then where is the impact in America of that superior culture?

CF likes their culture, I believe, precisely because they are not fully integrated into the mainstream of America. He would have that for us, no doubt.


You would rather have blacks unemployed,high murder rate, terrible test scores, ect, over not fully being integrated?? Hmm...


You missed the point. CF praises Asians because they have few expectations of America. In his mind they are "model minorities" because they are quiet and unobtrusive. African Americans built this country. We've been here longer than the average white person here. We have every reason to participate in all aspects of this country and have high expectations that it should work for us in the same way that it works for others.


oh okay.

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