Hey, if thats what they want....let em...In my opinion...they are dead weight to the race anyway!

"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
Original Post
I'm indifferent to whether black men date outside the race. I'm not entitled to them, they're not entitled to me, and I believe it is possible to date outside one's race without it involving self-hatred, hostility, et cetera. They're still black, and they still have a stake in our community.

As for the dead weight...are you familiar with the stereotype of the *militant black man* who's all about Black Power and Hating Whitey--but nevertheless has a white wife/girlfriend?
hi Lea,
yes I am very familiar with those men described in the last paragraph of your post...some of those men being those that were members of the original black panthers, who are now Republican and did an about face in their views...yes..very familiar.
I ...unlike you hate to see black men with white woman because there was a time when they would hang off of trees for even looking at white women,(unnamed brothers, Emmit Till) but today, they will just throw their behinds in jail...all she has got to do is yell rape..just like back in the day..Further, i am sure you heard of Greenwood..aka "the black wallstreet" that was destroyed, burned to the ground by white men and women becasue a black many was "accused" of raping a white woman that he merely shared an elevator ride with. Black men have historically suffered and died because of some sensless belief that they wanted or were attracted to white women. Are you familiar with probition and the laws that were created in 1914. Do you know why cocaine was outlawed? Becasue it was said that when and if used by Black men, the drug made them want to go out and rape white woman.. and now...they willingly lay down with them...thats util they scream rape! Its also black men like OJ, that forget about who he is and where he is from ..oh, thats until...the white man dont love him anymore..

"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
quote:
some of those men being those that were members of the original black panthers, who are now Republican and did an about face in their views...yes..very familiar.


I laugh and laugh at the thought of those guys. smile
It just goes to show.

As for this
quote:
hate to see black men with white woman because there was a time when they would hang off of trees for even looking at white women


One word: O.J.

I'm not going to minimize the past though. I've heard of those blaces you mentioned, and those people. And at this very minute I'm thanking God we're out of that time (This isn't a dig at you, I'm aware you posted the atheist post. It's just the way I feel).

Here is how I feel about interracial dating: I don't have a problem with it. I'm aware that there are some hateful people who do it for hateful reasons, and I pity them. I pity those who can't articulate a reason for dating out their race that has everything to do with their SO and nothing to do with the opposite sex of their race.

The black man/woman who says, "I hate black women/men because blah blah blah blah, so I went white, it's so right." Earns only my pity, and at times my contempt--when I can bother thinking of them at all. Their SO gets my pity, unless the SO *agrees* with that mentality. Then it's just straight up contempt.

Now, the black man/woman who says, "I love my SO, she/he has so much in common with me. We're the other half of each other's souls, here's what I love about her___________" Note the lack of bitterness and put downs for the opposite sex of their race. Their feelings stem from the SO, their mind is on their SO, and peace, love, and happiness to them.

I just don't think a person is a traitor to the black community because they date outside of it. There are people who stay inside the community who make me want to go all medieval on 'em. For example, Mike Tyson and R. Kelly, to my knowledge, only date black women. Yet they hurt black people. To me, they have betrayed the community. Ironically, not O.J.

The drug thing: one other reason I've learned about banning it, probably concurrent to yours, was because musicians were doing it (pot I think), and authorities noticed white kids getting into the music, and white musicians were hanging out with the black ones. The Powers That Be disliked the potential for fraternization, so they banned drugs, thinking to keep the races apart.

Because something was taboo in the past is not a strong enough reason for me to keep it a taboo now. Is your disapproval of interracial dating grounded in history, or do you have even deeper reasons?

By the way, welcome to the board. smile
quote:
Do you know why cocaine was outlawed? Becasue it was said that when and if used by Black men, the drug made them want to go out and rape white woman.


ROTFLMBO. Sorry for laughing but did you post this as an historical musing or is this part of your mental weaponry in the war against interracial relationships?

white man1: This coke is nice. where your sister at? I hear she got a new source.

white man2: Yeah she does but I think it might be too good.

white man1: Too good! Dang I need to get some of that.

white man2 She should be right back in a minute. You can get some, but that's not what I'm talking about.

white man1 {sniff, sniff} Doe kay whishhhh. {snort} What are you talking about anyway?

white man2 She sold some to these coloreds boys down on MLK Terrace.

white man1 GET OUT.

white man2 Yeah man! You know you can't give them coloreds no coke cane. Sell em some beer or weed but not coke cane. They don't control coke cake as well because it makes there nature too strong.

white man1 Yo sister sold them some coke cane? Is she crazy or somethin'?

white man2 I tried to tell her but she just won't listen to reason. She said she ain't worried about it; she can handle it, she says.

white man1 what you gone do 'bout it?

white man2 don't know. my granddaddy said coke cane made one of them colored boys talk so smooth to his little girl, folks been callin her baby a half breed. But he ain't though. He looks white and nobody can tell.

white man1 Ah bro? Ain't cho grandaddy only had one baby?

white man2 Ah, yeah!

white man1 And ain't yo momma onlyst son, you?

white man2 Hey where you goin man.??

white man1 I can't be sniffin this stuff with you. I got to go protect my sister. smile

-Jazhawk
mizzmercedes--looks like some of us have voiced/stated our opinions on this topic in a thread called Interacial Marriage/Dating...
maybe the threads can be combined some way (MBM is this possible??)

those who stand for nothing fall for anything
I'M FEELIN A LOT OF HEAT COMING OFF THIS THREAD. AND I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY? JUST LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE AND LET THEM HAVE THEIR OWN CHOICE. BLACK PEOPLE DON'T NEED A LESSON IN BLACK HISTORY. SO IF A BLACK PERSON LOSES SIGHT WITH WHAT BLACK STRUGGLE HAS BEEN/ IS ALL ABOUT THEN SO BE IT, AND WISH THEM THE BEST ON THIER UNPEACFUL JOURNEY. BUT I PERSONALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND A NEED TO WANT TO CALL ANYONE OUT. MY BLACK QUEENS, IF THAT BLACK MAN DOESN'T WANT TO BE WITH YOU, ITS HIS LOST AND MY GAIN (WINK). BUT LADIES PLEASE BE LADIES AND SHOW YOUR BEAUTY MORE THAN YOU ARE SHOWING YOUR UGLY.
quote:
JUST LEAVE PEOPLE ALONE AND LET THEM HAVE THEIR OWN CHOICE.


I agree completely. If we're going to exile people from the black community, I think the standard of grievance should be much higher than who they spend their Saturday nights with.
Mizz...

The question of why some people (and esp. black women) have such a dislike on the issue of black men with white women has always been one I really desire the answer to. I thank you for posting your opinion about it. My best friend is vehemently opposed to interracial dating. It almost manifests itself physically with her, and though I've asked her what it is about it, I get the answer that most females give .. "I just don't like it" or "It just isn't right." And to me, that just doesn't seem like a good enough reason!

In your opinion and reasoning, though I totally respect you for having it, I see it in a different context. I think the fact that those things that happened in the past are part of the past and have not carried into the present is something to celebrated. It means there has been progress and the right to choose is now no longer the death sentence it used to be.

Who someone else is sleeping with doesn't phase me in the least! It's not my business nor my problem. And I have enough of both of my own to keep me quite busy! It is the happiness of the two people involved that is what's most important. After all, skin color -- like beauty -- is only skin deep! It's what's on the inside that counts. And while I can only vaguely imagine myself being with anything but a black man, should my soulmate find me and happen to be of another race, I should hope that my road to loving bliss is not blocked by something as superficial as the color of either of our skins!
Hi Ebony,

You said:

"My best friend is vehemently opposed to interracial dating. It almost manifests itself physically with her"

How so?

As for me, i gave my opinion as to why I am opposed. I believe that the "past" did carry to the "present"...what happend in the past happend and its effects is still with us today. Especially with black boys and white girls....there are too many white girls that yell rape after being involved with a person of color ..but the only difference today, you will find them in prison for years and years and years instead of hanging off of trees. And to get into the Criminal INjustice system would be another topic. I am opposed to misegination and thats the way i feel.
You said that some people dont have a reason for the way they feel..maybe they do, but can't express it, maybe itis a topic they need to explore, maybe it is something more personal that they care to share..who knows...but personally, i gave my reason voluntarily, not because i had to...some people just dont want to !

"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
quote:
I...unlike you hate to see black men with white woman because there was a time when they would hang off of trees for even looking at white women


So your opposition is based on the number of brothers you see hanging from trees?

That was way back then and time and people have moved on from there. I understand why a Jesse, Tavis and Al want to maintain this mindset but how some people to this day won't venture too far from home is a real puzzler for me.

-Jazhawk
"So your opposition is based on the number of brothers you see hanging from trees?"
Thats part of it...as stated initinally in my post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
MizzMercedes,

Can you share stats?

From my personal experience, white girls don't cry rape. I imagine some do, but I have to question how many. I worked at two magazines. At the first, my editor was black. When it folded, he got me a job at his wife's--guess what she was?

The past is just not enough of a reason to be against something. Why seriously be against race mixing? Does it harm us? How? Does the harm it may do outdo the harm done by those who stay? And how productive is it to cut off brothers who date out, for the simple reason that they date out? What's the point, what's the goal? Out of curiosity, do we also kick out Venus Williams or Janet Jackson (or their every day life equivalents)?

What does it seriously matter who someone is dating?

Also...if ever some white guy says "Some of my best friends are black--but I don't want my sister to marry one." Do you agree with that attitude?
I hear what some confused black men say and I don't like it. I heard what some of these "white girls only" black men say.

Some black men have been brainwashed with the beauty standards of the media and society. Some black men think all black women are undesirable and after you hear them talk about what attracts them, it's the following:

Blonde hair, good hair, slender, pretty eyes and they claim that white women have better attitudes.

That is such BS, but my point is somehow these black men have adopted negative ideas about black women and have admirable ideas about white women.

Some black men will get with any white woman no matter what she looks like, as long as she is white she is right for them. This is the kind of attitude that pisses me off.

I especially hate to see rich black men with white women because they think it's in line with their status of being rich, that is my suspicion anyway. For example, Kobe Bryant can kiss my ahz.

But love, is where you find it, if you fall in love with a white woman or man then that is cool, no problem.

I actually have no problem at all of black women dating white men because there are so many available black women who are having trouble finding that soul mate who is a brother. And plus it knocks white women off their pedestal in thinking that no beauty and veneration could compare to hers. More power to them.

But any desirable black man should have some kind of obligation to black women.

In California, jungle fever is rampant. When I'm out there I see so many old, young black men with white women, there is a dynamic going in CA that makes it a common thing.

In France you see old white men married to old black women with their grandkids, my point is mixed marriages there have been going on for sometime, black women and white men is not a big deal there.

London you see plenty of mixed couples of all kinds, it seems that poor white women think it is a step up for them to get with a black man. England has the fastest growth of mixed couples.
lea,
No, I dont have "recent" stats on hand and will not be looking for any....you said...
"The past is just not enough of a reason to be against something."..
not to sound insensitive...but maybe this is the case for you....not me! It is more than enough for me!
Peace!

"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
I just thought, as you ascribe vile behavior to a group of people, you'd at least prove that in fact this group is engaging in it, especially today.

But as I said, my standards of grievance are higher than who someone dates, and I'm not turning my back on someone for that reason.

Peace.
This is an on going debate that I have with my wife. She is soooo opposed to inter-racial dating, but can't give any real reason why.

She admitted that much earlier in her life ("during her wild years") she had dated a few white guys but did not find them attractive.

Some time ago, I came to believe that her real opposition to inter-racial dating stems from her "pre-me" years, when she was ready to settle down and was faced with the "insult"[her words] of being alone while seeing the few Brothers around here going home with white girls. It's a matter of feeling excluded and/or unwanted.
okay--since the two/three VERY SIMILAR threads couldn't be combined...here are my thoughts pasted from a previous post.

black men - white women/non-black women

i'd like to be first to comment on this...as i feel strongly about this issue. my men/women relationships topic initially started off as this topic.

quote from men/women relationships thread:
--------------------------------------------------

are we becoming more open to other races? or have we been? what are your thoughts on interracial dating/marriage? what do you think race blending is doing to our culture--to the children of african decent? will they know their heritage?


--------------------------------------------------

i am the product of a black-black marriage, but was raised and am still living in a predominately white part of America. The northwest is very open, very progressive, and very accepting. It is the Mecca of "jungle-fever". i've said this before and i'll say it again--if the feva was a real disease, the Pacific Northwest would be quarantined!!

my personal view on inter racial dating/marriage is bottom line to each his own. if "love" is the basis and foundation of a relationship-no one has the right to judge that.

BUT---when a black man makes a conscious decision to date non-black women because they are "easier to get along with", "they give them anything and everything", "they accept them for who and what they are", "its a status thing", "if you're gonna be with one, be with one that would make a white guy jealous"--all reason's i've heard because i've asked. that to me is unacceptable.

when my brotha walks by me with his non-black woman on his arm and can't look me in the eye, can't give me a return hello, or looks at me like i'm not worthy--that's a problem.
jill scott's "do you remember me" is all about that right there!

some of these men have a serious issue with either their self-identity, the way they look at black women or both. And some of them are just not worth the effort of wondering about where their heads are. not to put all the blame on black men for making the choice to cross over--there's an issue with the us as black women driving our men away--not be supportive, not being tough on him, but still understanding what he's facing as a man, (black-man) on a daily basis.
the products of these relationships (the movement to beige )can either been well nurtured, well educated on who they are and what their mixed-race means (where they came from, how they are a part of two powerful cultures), or they can be left to be raised by one side or the other. it's when the latter happens that concerns me.

is it any better if the child is left with the black side of the relationship to be raised? the child is still missing out on half of who he is--but because white america is the dominating culture--there isn't the same concern (in my eyes) that this child is going to miss out on knowing about his other side. family things may go without knowing, but cultural things will be picked up--we as black american's know about white culture from just living here.

it's when i see kids, babies, with white families--because the father isn't around anymore, or was never around. and these children are being raised by families that don't know about black culture. they don't know how to take care of their hair, they aren't introducing them to black foods, black church, black books, black toys...these kids are missing out on half of who they are. which means 20 years from now--where will our culture be?
we're struggling right now as people to come together---but we're being diluted, and our history is fading with it.

those who stand for nothing fall for anything
Hello Nykkii,

I pretty much agree with your post. I've never heard that Jill Scott song, but as I see it, regardless of where his mind is, it ain't my business. I only care when he does something that actually hurts the community.

are we becoming more open to other races? or have we been?

I think so. And not necessarily the plain old black/white mix, either. Or maybe it's just the people I hang with.

quote:
if the feva was a real disease, the Pacific Northwest would be quarantined!!


I've wanted to ask you all what Seattle is like for black people. Sometimes I read the Post-Intelligencer, but I don't feel I get the whole picture from that.

Back to the topic. You asked what mixing, especially the children from it, will do to our culture. I can't believe I'm quoting Mao, but he said something that fits:

"We must put aside conclusions reached to the test of our own experiences and absorb what is useful, reject what is useless, and add what is specifically our own."

He was talking about winning battles, but I think if we made a point of studying these infusions into our culture, and adapting them for our own purposes, we could only benefit. Nature punishes stagnation, rewards adaptability. Same with cultures, and I think ours is strong enough and resilient enough to not be destroyed because of race mixing. And if it isn't, we better do something about it now.

quote:
we're struggling right now as people to come together---but we're being diluted, and our history is fading with it.


I hope that the solution to the fading history is education. In Chicago right now there's a nonprofit org. called the HistoryMakers. They have an online project to archive the stories of black people. Just today I was looking at the website the King family has on Dr. King Jr., publishing his papers and so on. I hope at least, that as long as some of us make a point of keeping our stories alive, we won't have to worry about losing the history. But that's all our responsibility, and whether we stay seperate or mix, that responsibility is still ours. If we lose our history, all the endogamy in the world won't help us.

Now those children who grow up without their culture, especially mixed kids raised in the situation you described, worry me, too. It just seems that the parent would bother to learn something first about the culture they marry into. Since we can't always count on people being sensible, maybe we should do something like what I read about in the Detroit Free Press a few months back. There's a salon in Detroit somewhere that offered classes on "How to do your hair," and they especially aimed it at half-black kids with clueless mothers.

If the parents of these kids are tenaciously clueless, then I don't know what we can do except keep our history, our culture alive, and be prepared to teach the children when they get to us.

P.S.: I like your slogan. smile
i'm a black woman and i have to tell you that it physically hurts when i see a black man with a white woman. i'm not going to complain to his face or to hers. i'm not going to give him a guilt trip about it, because who am i to tell him what to do? but my feelings about it are strong.

i'm one of the myriad of black women approaching her thirties, without prospects for marraige. we all know the problem in the black community. there aren't enough brothers. . .nay quality brothers to go around. if i wanted to i could get a thug easily. it seems they are in abundance. but the black men who are thinking positively, self starters, dignified and educated are in the minority. and they know it. so they take advantage of it. i can't blame them. if the market were so good, i might shop around too. and these black men who date black women have a way of making black women feel like a dime a dozen. he won't compromise because you should be glad to have a man. then there's the good old fashioned biological clock. men dont have one and feel less of a push to get married to start a family. all this makes dating very hard as a master's educated black woman.

the black men with undergraduate and especially graduate degrees seem to prefer women who aren't black. sure there are the black couples where both are educated but they are in the minority. it seems the more educated a black man is, the more likely he is to want a white woman. it hurts to see a black man with a white woman because too often these men are the quality brothers. the ones with equal qualifications to the black women who can't find a man. and it's a slap in the face when there are sooo many single black women to choose from. there are too many queens looking for their kings. i get angry because i feel like white women get the best black men. and i'm angry at black men for falling for it and for deciding that a black woman wasn't good enough.

a black man can tell me all he wants that it's true love and that he's colorblind. but i don't buy it. at least in some small way, her whiteness played into the decision to be with her.

maybe i'd feel differently if i had a good man in my life. maybe then i wouldn't care. but i'm single, nay, perpetually, chronically single. and i'm not alone. it's hurtful to see one of our prospects choosing to be with a woman who does not share his heritage and who could never really know what it is to be black. frown
I totally disagree that there is really a shortage of quality black men. Before you get angry for seeing a man with another woman, Fill out a self application: what do/can I bring to the table? As a man or woman climb the corporate and academic ladder, he/she also find a social status amongst his/her constiuents whom share that same academic/corporate level. Perhaps instead of reaching for someone whom obviously already have a woman on his arms, you should reach for that little guy who is paying his dues and just starting to climb from the bottom. These are the guys who you ignored all the time and they grow up to be that educated corporate structure whom you will despise for being with a nonblack woman.
why would it be so terrible to be with someone (of your same race if that's your choice -- it is mine) who has worked as hard as you have to achieve a like status educationally, socially and career-wise?
why should we (black women) have to look to the "small guy" who's still working his way up to find a compatible person. while i try to remain open to almost all levels of black men that may come my way (come on now, the guy working the drive through window at buger king, still living in his momma's basement at 35 yrs old is out of my radar), why shouldn't i be able to narrow my focus on the men who have achieved, and who are still striving to achieve?

i personally think the "shortage" of good black men is a bunch of whining. i meet GOOD BLACK MEN all the time. quality men, with asiprations, and goals. i have yet to meet the 'one' for me (because im becoming increasingly convinced he's not in the Seattle area!!) but he's out there...;) somewhere. hopeful and optimistic i will remain.

those who stand for nothing fall for anything
from your lips to god's ear! i hope you are right about the shortage being a myth. it just doesnt feel that way to me. maybe i just live in a bad area, but in the last few months the only brothers who show any interest are the ones with gold teeth, who look at me as a steak dinner instead of a woman. i pray that i'm just in some kind of funk and that the right guy is around the corner somewhere. but if it isn't true why do so many black women experience that?

as to the argument that i only look towards the married men. . . now c'mon. you don't seriously think i only notice married men do you? i'm speaking from experiences i have had time and again with different black men.

i live in fear that if i connect with the up and coming brother, he's going to dump me when he reaches his goals. you never know how success is going to effect someone. your statement kinda reminds me of the old "potential" yardstick. look at his potential. . .first of all if i had a penny for every time a sister got burned over "potential" i'd be rich. i want someone of equal footing. there's nothing wrong with that. i'm not asking for that which i don't have myself. i bring plenty to the table. i just can't find someone who can ante up like wise. i shouldnt feel like i have to compromise any more than black men feel they should compromise on wanting someone "fine". and what about the philosophy that you should accept the person for where they are and not hope they change or try to change them? most likely they won't.

why dont black men overlook her weight if she's going to weight watchers? i bet that sounds rediculous to some guys. well that's the way i'm hearing your argument.

in any case, i have plans to try to put myself in different circles in the near future. maybe a change of scenery is all i really need.
This is reality. They are either one of three...dead, lockedup, military eek or on the arms of white women.

"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
Lea

***** just thought, as you ascribe vile behavior to a group of people, you'd at least prove that in fact this group is engaging in it, especially today****

Please share the "vile behavior" that I ascribe to. I never recall posting or agreeing that I do anything to disrupt the lives of those that engage in miscegination. I merely stated my opinion and how i feel. Where is the behavior coming in? There is none...thats just your opinion becasue i never wrote anything on this board to support your assumptions!
eek roll eyes roll eyes

"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
The vile behavior, to my mind, would be having sex with someone, and then falsely accusing them of rape. That is the behavior you ascribed to white women. I think that is quite obviously a vile thing for them to do--if they're doing it-- and it was part of the reason you stated you dislike interracial dating amongst black men. That is what I expected you to back up. Can you do that, is that just an *assumption* on your part?
this article is a bit dated--but still relevent.

our young sisters are feeling our same plight...things aren't getting any better for any of us!!

03/27/2002 09:25 AM EDT

ATLANTA (AP) - The strip through the campus of Clark Atlanta University looks like a fashion runway, even at 8 a.m.

Young women walk by in tight skirts, designer tops, high heels and makeup _ looking like they're going to a club instead of calculus.

But when you're at a school with nearly 3,600 women and only 1,500 men, some women don't want to miss an opportunity to look their best and catch the eyes of some of the campus' high-demand males.

"It will for a lot of guys," acknowledges freshman Naqwanna Taylor, "but I don't think those are the ones you're looking for."

Around the country, colleges are becoming increasingly more female, but the imbalance is even greater at historically black colleges such as Clark, which is 71 percent women.

Some students say it creates a campus culture in which women desperately try to attract college-educated black males, and men act like commitment-phobic "dawgs" because they can pick and choose from a surplus of women.

"The girlfriend thing is cool but it's not going much further than that," says William Noble, a 29-year-old who will begin graduate school at nearby Georgia State University in the fall. "Men are out there to see what's what."

Clark students find out early about the female-to-male ratio.

"During orientation, they had us in the multipurpose room," says freshman Chantel Runnels. "They had males sitting on one side and females sitting on the other side. The females were going all the way back. The males went to like the fifth row."

"That was scary," she added. "What are black men doing?"

Black males are graduating from high school at rates equal to whites, but many are choosing not to enroll in college. Many join the military or go straight into the work force. And others get caught up in the criminal justice system - where they make up 47 percent of the prison population.

That makes things tough on black female college students and graduates who are looking for a mate with those of a similar educational background, says Robert Billingham, an associate professor of human development at Indiana University.

In 1996, nearly 28 percent of black college-educated women over the age of 25 had never married compared to 16 percent of white women, according to a 2000 study published in the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education.

When the freshmen males arrived on campus last fall, they went wild when they saw so many females, Taylor says. She overheard guys talking about being able to "pretty much have any girl I want."

"It's just that there are so many girls," she says. "I've heard guys say 'I'm going to be moving. I'm going to have girls in and out of my room."

Ryan Russell, a fifth-year student, admits he was happy when he first arrived on campus for his freshman year, saying he had never been around so many beautiful black women.

Russell says he was greedy - talking to more than one female at a time and "playing the field."

"I remember at induction standing in a line with the guys next to the girls line," Russell says. The guys were pointing at the girls saying, "There's my eight right there."

That atmosphere doesn't necessarily bode well for those seeking long-term relationships.

Freda White, a Georgia State junior, says she hasn't been out on a date since September and her last boyfriend was more than four years ago. The attractive, petite political science major says she spends most Friday nights in her dorm room.

"I'm confused," the 21-year-old says. "What is it they don't see in me that turns them away from me? I feel like something may be wrong with me."

Billingham believes colleges need to place more emphasis on recruiting black males _ outside of athletics. Otherwise, he says, the discrepancy between college-educated black men and women will become even more problematic.

And once a black woman graduates from college, he says, it only becomes harder to find a mate, especially if she ends up in the white-dominated corporate world. **little minx-this is your point exactly!**

Doris Derby, director of the Office of African-American Student Services and Programs at Georgia State, says black women need to understand that they can have much in common with men who have not gone to college.

She says there are plenty of successful black men without degrees, including construction workers, mechanics, military personnel and small business owners. **I still agree, there are good successful black men out there, but they have the upper hand in picking and choosing who they want to be with. and this is where the inter-racial issue kicks in....**

"I think that young girls have a certain view - idealistic - they're thinking the young man not only has to have an education but a higher education and a better job and so forth," Derby says. "If they don't have some flexibility and some realization in their life, they'll end up single." **is she telling us to trade down too??**

Gwen Grant, an advice columnist for Essence magazine, says educated black women should also consider dating outside of their race. Otherwise, their options are going to be extremely limited.

But White says she will only date black men. And Patrice Lee, a black Georgia State doctoral student, says she has dated foreign men but the cultural differences created problems.

Grant lectures black women not to settle for just any black man because they are worried about the gruesome statistics.

"I think our horizons cannot be limited to the campus we live on," she says. "Our limited thinking has limited our options. There's a world out there."

Many black women say they will not lower their standards.

"I feel like I'm a very focused individual and I'm not going to settle for anything," says Clark freshman Taylor. "If I want something, I want something that's up to par."

those who stand for nothing fall for anything
I dont have a problem with the concept of interracial dating. What bothers me are those people that seem to only want to date exclusive races of people.

I myself believe that love is blind. If a person of color should happen to fall in love with a person of a non-black origin who's to say that is wrong?

For those of you that believe "it should be against the law" for a brother to date a white woman or vice versa my question for you would be what makes you any different from the Klansman in the white robe calling for segregation?

Things Turn Out Best For Those Who Make The Best Of The Way Things Turn Out.
i'll step up here in defense of my fellow aa.org members and say i don't think ANY of us said we think it should be 'against the law' for a black man to date a white woman, or woman of non-black background. love is love is love is love.

BUT--
i think taking issue with black men who make it a point to switch to the "other-side" when they make some money, or gained social status is valid.

i think taking issue with black men who blatently make a choice in the race of women they date because of an "easier" way to go, is valid.

if i choose to date black men, if i am attracted to black men, if i want to create new life with only black men...that is in no way similar to the HATE that is perpetuated by groups like the KKK. no one is screaming supremacy, no one is violently killing white women, or black men who chose white women. help me see your point...

i have to agree with mizzmercedes on her comment about white women who yell rape. i've seen it too many times, where a white female thinks it's "cool" to have a black man. she'll hide it from her family, and if he falls in love with her and her "coolness" fades to something/someone else, all she has to do to get rid of him is expose him as a threat to her. how many of our men are incarerated falsely?? how many at the hands of a white woman??
nine times out of 10 she'll be believed over him. i've seen it happen. the color of his skin poses a threat. the other threads out here speak to that point--we are looked at differently because of the skin we're in...it's no different when things go bad between inter-racial couples.
a black-black couple doesn't draw the same media attention (oj/nicole) had nicole been black it wouldn't have been the huge deal it was. people stick together. families stick together, and races stick together. why don't we? why can't we?


those who stand for nothing fall for anything

[This message was edited by Nykkii on August 12, 2002 at 04:41 PM.]
Nykkii,

quote:
i think taking issue with black men who make it a point to switch to the "other-side" when they make some money, or gained social status is valid.

i think taking issue with black men who blatently make a choice in the race of women they date because of an "easier" way to go, is valid.



Yes, they are pathetic for doing that. They have issues going on that only they can resolve, because an individual black woman had to be a superb***h of incredible proportions to justify excluding all. Or weakly attempt to, I should say. I just don't see it helping any black women to focus on those men. Unless there are success stories out there of black women who convinced those kind of men to "come home." Too bad they haven't written any books about it.

Do white women cry rape? Commonly? See, basing the accusation on personal experience is one thing. If one consistently sees white women doing that, that's one thing. If there is documented evidence, from either side--accuser or accused--that's one thing. To just say it, is another. While I don't doubt your experiences, I've seen enough married bm/ww to wonder just how prevalent this behavior is on the part of white women. I imagine it does happen. But for accusations, the burden of proof...
mis mercedes and nykii thank you for letting me know i'm not the only one. there is another affirmation that the shortage is real.

i have a question. have you ever noticed that black men will date a white woman more often than a black woman will admit to wanting to date outside of her race? what's up with that? are we all really that loyal to the brothers? and if so why aren't they equally loyal to us? i understand that the rates for black woman white male marraiges have increased, but i have rarely met a black woman who says that she is willing to date outside of her race. maybe we need to quit trying to be sanctimonious and face the facts. maybe we do need to explore non black men more often. it does kinda feel like hitting your head against a brick wall
*****The vile behavior, to my mind, would be having sex with someone, and then falsely accusing them of rape. That is the behavior you ascribed to white women. I think that is quite obviously a vile thing for them to do--if they're doing it-- and it was part of the reason you stated you dislike interracial dating amongst black men. That is what I expected you to back up. Can you do that, is that just an *assumption* on your part? *****

As i said, yes I have the research to back up what i am saying...Can I dig it out? Yes!..will i dig it out for you...NO!..and am I entitled to my opinion after digesting the research..Yes..and ****assumption?*****...never that! And as I said, white women do continue to have consentual sex with black men and some do scream rape!

"Revolution Starts Between the Ears"
If it isn't vile in your mind, then why is it a problem to you?

I asked you a question in good faith, believe it or not, because the thought of black men who date interracially falling prey to such women, disturbed me to say the least. It also went against my own experiences...I have an uncle married to a white woman. Men at my church, same deal, the boss I mentioned to you? Same deal. Anonymous strangers on the street...same deal. So if the accusations were happening, I did want to know, and how prevalent they were.

I never said you couldn't have an opinion contrary to mine. I'm not nearly autocratic enough for that. I disagree with you--it's not the same as saying that you can't think differently than me. But really, I do expect people to be able to say what their opinions are based on, and that's all.
after a long, serious, deep, passionate discussion i had on black men and white women with a strong, single, intelligent, open minded black man here in the NW...I have a few questions for everyone.

early either in this thread or a similar thread i made the comment that we (black women) may be pushing our men away. and i still stand behind that observation, and would like your feed back on it.

are we as black women making it difficult for black men to be men in our households, in our lives, in the work place? are we undermining them, challenging them, putting up obstacles where there don't really need to be obstacles?

or are we supporting them and encouraging them to keep after their goals and dreams?

picture two camps...one where you get a lot of push back and negativity about what you can't do, and what you're not doing, how you're not good for anything...and the other camp where you may get some constructive criticism, some loving pushing, some support and encouragement when you fail, but all in all you know those in the camp want to see you succeed--which camp are you choosing??

okay, so the camps may be over exaggerated, but i know black housholds that could fit into either camp, and mixed and white households that could fit either. but, for the purpose of this discussion, if it's easier across the way, why not go there. ladies as a whole--we tend to be a little difficult to deal with, and we sometimes we have good reason for it, but think about which camp you'd want to be a part of. (difficult sistah's could lead me into why some of us don't have women as friends-another thread for another day)

back to my discussion... it led me down a path of thinking about how society has gone after the black family. tearing it apart at it's roots, separating us from slavery--putting the black woman in the dominate 'head of the household' role. as things have progressed through history our men have been incarcerated at a higher rate than any other male race-removing him from our families. our men are not always given equal/fair opportunities to earn money for their families-which may remove him from our families.
drug sales, lack of education, death--all things that remove or make it impossible to have him there as a part of our families--leaving us in charge.
i'm really just wondering if we're doing all we can as women? have we learned from maybe grandmother, mothers, aunts, that we need to be the ones taking care of business at home, and thus made it difficult for our men to be men??

i know in the age of "RIGHT NOW" we have men who were raised by women--with no male father figure, who maybe don't know how to be men--which only compounds the problem.
if they don't know how to do it, and we're making it even harder on them when they try....maybe crossing over to the sunny side of the street is easier.

i don't ever believe anything is one-sided, so ladies...let's check ourselves as a WHOLE, and maybe there is something we can do to effect some loyalty due to us...

those who stand for nothing fall for anything
lea, ALL women cry rape, sexual harrasement, etc!! ALL races of women can and do falsely accuse men of things for whatever reason.

I think my point and maybe mizzmercedes point is that it is a bigger deal when a white woman does it and the man happens to be black.

^black men have lost their lives over it.
^black men are in jail over it.
^black men have lost their jobs over it...

and yet, black men continue to drink from that cup.
it doesn't have to be a frequent occurance--just the fact that white women will play the race card to get out of something should make black men take heed in where they are dippin their stick.

those who stand for nothing fall for anything
quote:
lea, ALL women cry rape, sexual harrasement, etc!! ALL races of women can and do falsely accuse men of things for whatever reason.



Never said or thought otherwise, sorry if you had that impression.

quote:
just the fact that white women will play the race card to get out of something should make black men take heed in where they are dippin their stick.


Yes. It's not my experience, but I can see that point.
hey nykii. on the question of whether or not we are too hard on brothers. . i think you know my answer. i dont think so. i think black men are as difficult to deal with as they claim black women are. both the black man and the black woman have been through hell and back due to slavery and the subsequent racism. that makes the black male and the black female more sensitive and more defensive with each other. i'm all for both black men and women making an effort to understand each other. but when exploring the myth of the emasculating matriarch, i have to protest. in the sixties i believe it was moynihan who did a psychological study of black men, which ultimately blamed black women for many of his problems. the study claimed that black women emasculate black men, i suppose by being too strong. i think alot of black women and men are still effected by that study. in my experience, black women often excuse the bad behavior of a black male and put up with inexcusable situations for the sake of not being pegged as one of those women. hey, i'll tell you that i have been in situations in relationships where i have put up with more than i know i should have because i was trying to be understanding of a brother's plight. sometimes i think black women cottle black men alittle too much.

are black women doing enough to keep the men around? hmm. we've stepped up the plate to keep the black community going, right along with alot of brothers. if we didn't take care of the kids, where would the community be? i know there are brothers who handle their business, and more power to them. but there are far too many families who for whatever reason, don't have a man in the picture. as i've said, i think that black women tend not to even consider dating outside of the race. the article that nykii posted spoke about a woman who suggested that women date outside of the race, but then said she never would herself. are black women publishing songs that demean the men as often as the men publish songs with words "b*tch" and "h*"? these songs are commonplace. a common rap song will feature the words several times. black women don't seem to be up in arms about it. in fact, it's so commonplace that we sisters too often jam to songs like that ourselves. what happened when "waiting to exhale" was released? or "the color purple"? black men went up in arms. what happened when TLC released "no scrubs" daring to suggest that a black woman should not settle for a man who can't handle his business? black men went up in arms. you don't see sisters complaining as a whole every time one of those rap songs are released or every time snoop dogg shows a pornography tape as a video. we are very understanding if you ask me. black women hated anita hill as much as black men did, on the whole. black women supported OJ even though he married a white woman, and then proceeded to kill his wife (ah-hem, allegedly). anybody see the "queens of comedy"? i saw references of how the black man should be the king of the household even if he's not bringing home an income. i saw black women telling black women not to pass on the brother who's riding the bus. does that sound like women are being too evil? no. sounds alittle permissive if you ask me, but then i don't have a man do i wink?

i don't know what the black man expects of the black woman if that isn't support. just like the black man, the black woman gets tired too. tired of bearing the burdens that racism has left us. just as we are told that we should understand that black men have rage due to the white man, let us consider that the black woman is ticked off too. are we supposed to take care of the kids and go to work, and grin and bear it without ever being able to get real about our resentments? black men need to be as understanding as he expects a woman to be with him.

and in conclusion, sorry for the dissertation ya'll but you got me started, i want to say this. what ticks me off is that a black man with a black woman is too often a baby daddy. because too often a black man with a white woman is a husband.
In my life, I have heard a LOT of black women complain that there is a shortage of datable black men. I have also heard a LOT of black women bemoan interracial blackman/whitewoman relationships.

BUT, I have NEVER heard a woman who had her own thing together do either of the above. I have yet to hear a "dime-piece" tell me about a shortage, or complain about interracial couples.

Not saying anything. Just an observation. Women should stop worrying about the men who don't want them, and stop allowing their slavery-based racial inferiority complex to flare up every time they see a black man with a white woman. It's really not that big a deal.
interesting. the same could be said of black men. a black man who knows how to treat a woman, can be happy with one. if black women are difficult for him to handle time and again, maybe he should ask what HE'S doing that makes black women so offensive. a man with his stuff together probably doesn't complain that a woman only wants him for ends. because he has them. a man who is the head of his household, probably doesn't complain that the woman is trying to override him.

a "dime piece" is just that. a dime a dozen. when was the last time you heard a "dime piece" having a long term relationship with a black man? maybe they don't have problems getting dates because that's all their looking for. a date. see what happens when a "dime piece" wants to get married

[This message was edited by little minx on August 13, 2002 at 08:40 PM.]
Hey mizz,

What I mean by "physically" is that she can get so upset by seeing the black man/white woman couple that it manifests itself in raising the blood pressure, headaches, stomachaches and other resulting symptoms. She has to rave about it to the point where she can actually make herself sick about it ... not to mention it puts her in an extremely bad mood!! smile

My answer to this is that to me love is blind ... color and otherwise. Love knows no race, it happens to everybody ... even some animals probably!! Love is universal. If I see a happy couple, then that is what I see!! If I see a thug with a slut, then it doesn't matter their skin color, I see a ghetto, thugged out couple!! They come in same and mixed races!! I can see a really nice looking man with a tore up woman ... and a beautiful female with a man that looks like the cat dragged him in!! Be they black or white or mixed or other ... if you see love in bloom or even a great working relationship, why not be happy for that couple?? That is, if you can appreciate the concept of happiness!!

I've stated before, I've always dated a black man, probably always will, as I can't see myself doing otherwise. I will and do look at all men ... because I love men!! And fine is fine regardless of the skin color!! But there are other factors that go into dating and relationships and for me, Black men serve that purpose best!! But, if I am lucky enough to find a man that LOVES me for who I am and for the rest of my life and he happens not to be black ... I will chalk that up to God knowing best and take my happiness and run with it ... and not look back!!! I do not need to pass Go nor collect $200!! True love is a precious thing ... and I can't think of any reason to deny it when it's right!

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