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A few years ago I met an attractive black man in Los Angeles. "I usually don't date black women," he told me, "but I find you intriguing." I guess he thought I should be flattered, but instead I was disturbed. Rather than see me as his equal, he saw me as some sort of scientific oddity.

Of course there are intelligent black women out there. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't looked or isn't interested in looking. That's why I get so frustrated when I hear black men announce they've "given up on black women!!!" after an unsuccessful relationship. "Black men have too many issues," one white woman told me.

All relationships have issues. In fact, interracial relationships must often navigate through difficult questions of racial comfort and sincerity that don't appear in most same-race relationships. In interracial dating, we often find ourselves asking, "Does this person see beyond my race or will he show his true colors when the chips are down?"

Whatever issues white men face, self hatred is not one of them when it comes to their racial identity. That's why I'm more concerned about black men excluding other blacks than I am about white men excluding other whites from their respective dating pools.

In a culture that devalues black males and elevates white males, it is not likely that white male racial self-exclusion is rooted in self hatred than it would be with black males. After all, white men have no reason to hate themselves in a society that reinforces their privilege. Black men, on the other hand, are repeatedly assaulted by messages that communicate our alleged inferiority.

Let's face it "” why should I chase somebody who is not sure if he wants me? I have no interest in spending my time trying to get a prejudiced black man to look at me in a bar . I'd rather spend my time talking to that cute, intelligent white man.
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Black women are not standby equipment.

There are millions more unattached black women than unattached black men. Deducting from that total those black men unavailable due to substance abuse, unemployment, incarceration, involvement with white women and homosexuality results in a bleak demographic landscape for black women. Black men, certain types, will play their demographic advantage to the hilt by treating many black women as standby equipment. They play the system for what it's worth, and the pool of unattached black women is the system they play.

All too many black men choose to take on the role of sultans on the black social stage, the privileged few among the unattached many!! Black women are their standby-equipment harem girls, from whom they expect appropriate tributes. Being put on standby status means that the polygmaous sultan deems yo to be a harem girl whose services are not required for the moment. To wait on the shelf until his whim deems otherwise. Should the sultan tire of one harem girl, there are plenty more, and not all are black. Sultans cannot uderstand why any harem girl would find fault with their system. Their view is that harem membership is ample reward enough and black women should be gratelful. You have no LEVERAGE over these sultans, because they have no incentive to change. There's nothing to be gained. don't be fooled by the ficticious carrots they dangle to induce black women to pull their social lives along. They offer nothing of substance. SHOULD YOU LIMIT YOUR SOCIALIZING TO CERTAIN TYPES OF BLACK SULTANS, your only rewards will be empty promises and endless reassurances, as far into the future as the eye can see. Black women that make the mistake of taking on the role of standby equipment status leave themselves no choice but to contort their lives to fill the role expectations that go with being a spare tire.

Standby equipment is a role with no room for emotional growth. Do not trim yourself down to suit a sultan's lowly expectations. Standby status is a game you are predestined to lose. Closing your mind to reality in front of you blcoks you from moving beyond standby status. Walk out and find a game with better odds.

Maxine S.
Solution to the Shortage of black men:

Millions of white men are interested in dating black women. 57% of single white men are open to dating interracially, compared to 51% of single black women. (Source Washington Post and Jet 10/1995).

White men who have never married, or are divorced, widowed or separated outnumber similarily disposed adult black women more than 3 to 1: 29.2 million white men, compared to 8.4 million black women. There's plenty to go around.

The odds are even better for single black women with associate's, bachelor's or advanced degrees. Single white men with such degrees outnumber similarily disposed black women more than 5 to 1: 7.2 million white men, compared to 1.3 million black women. There's even more to go around for black women with degrees. Remember, almost 60% are open to dating interracially.

Not all white men are great, however on average, the odds are that an adult white man who can handle being in an interracial relationship is likely to be mature in many dimensions, including the way he treats women.

Black women have a much greater workforce presence than black men, which brings them into contact with large number of potentially compatible white males, subconcious choices make it still less likely to see black women with white men than the other way around. Statistics show this figure is slowly changing.
It is time black women started dating out. Out as in interracially out. Out as in dating white, Latino, Asian and Native American men out. Here are a few reasons why I think dating interracially isn't only an option, it's a necessity:

Kobe Bryant, Tiger "Cablanasian" Woods, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Jason Williams, Scottie Pippen, Cuba Gooding, Quincy Jones (each of the four times he was married), Clarence Thomas (thank goodness), Taye Diggs. All are married to or dating white women. We can't list the number of brothers in the NBA, the NFL and Major League Baseball who date white women exclusively. There just isn't enough disk space.

Now imagine if I said Oprah, Halle, Vivica, Jada, Vanessa, Erykah, Lauryn, Whitney, Aretha, Venus and Serena were all married or engaged to white men. Or if I said they only date and marry white men and have no time whatsoever for black men. Imagine if it were true. What would be the response of black men? We all get the picture, and it's not a good feeling.

The message these men's dating pattern sends to young black women and black men, as well as the rest of the American public, is that black women are not worthy. They are not beautiful enough; they are not deserving enough.

Interracial dating is all for the good. In the best cases it leads to greater understanding between the races. Let me say this at the outset: I am an interracial dater. My primary criteria are respect, compassion and absolute devotion. The best scenario for humanity is for us to love without regard to race, class or ethnicity.

I have no problem with anyone dating interracially, but what I do consider pathological is the trend wherein many successful black men date and marry only white women. It's as if having a white woman on one's arm is a barometer of success for many black men, like winning a playoff ring.

The dating habits of these black men reflect the corrosive effects of slavery on their thinking: The notion that the white woman, the prime jewel in the white man's crown, is a symbol of status, of achievement, of long-established standards of "beauty."

It is a sad fact of life that people often attach greater value to things that are desired by others. Right now black men are under the mistaken impression that because black women have refrained from dating interracially in significant numbers, especially since the interracial dating boom in the sixties, the only option available to us is black men. They mistakenly believe that no other group of men desires us. And that if they do want us it is only as an after hour, behind-closed-doors booty call. Of course this is far from the case. Other men have always approached black women.

But because of history and the deleterious effects of slavery, discrimination and racism, we have often been skeptical of their reasons for pursuing us. Understandably, when invited out by white men we wondered if they were just trying to see what it was like with a black girl, if they believed the sex was wilder and more primitive, or if they were motivated by a guilt complex.

Further, the myth, perpetuated by slavery and racism, is that white men don't see us. Though untrue, this myth makes it harder for us to trust them. The fact is that during slavery, when black humanity was questioned, white men constantly bedded us. It was rape – the assertion of the powerful over the powerless – I agree, but if they desired us when we were deemed the ˜other,' almost alien, why would they now no longer do so?

It doesn't make sense. Sure, the efforts of the media, by and large, have been to render the black woman's beauty, intelligence and desirability invisible, or to make her an unattractive, ball-busting harpy, with strange hair, strange skin, strange ways. But all of that hasn't stopped white men from wanting us.

In fact, according to US census figures black female-white male marriages have quadrupled in the last decade. There's a simple reason for this, besides our beauty and intellect: the natural attraction that occurs between human beings given exposure and proximity. Black women are graduating from universities and entering the professional workforce at twice the rate of black men. We are working much more closely with white men. This gives the lie to the black male professional's excuse that he can't meet or find black women on his level. More than any other group of women, black female professionals tend to ignore economic disparity when marrying. This also undermines the frequent assertion by black men that black women are more materialistic than white women, and hence unattractive as marrying partners. If we were so materialistic we'd be pursuing and marrying only men on our socio-economic level, frequently white men.

Though the number of black females dating interracially is increasing it is still minimal compared to the number of black men dating and marrying white women. This is because most of us are still suspicious of white men. I say it is time black women stop approaching interracial dating with an inferiority complex; approach it from a position of strength. Believe me, white women do not question why black men desire them. These girls have the ultimate diva complex. We need to take a lesson from them. Believe in our beauty, our intellect and our strength. The same power and instinct we use to weed out the jerks and weirdoes from among black men can be utilized on white, Latino, Asian and Native American men.

Let's face facts: there is a limited pool of black men. White women have been wandering into our section of the pool for a very long time. It is time we wandered into theirs. There's no reason to keep the pool color-coded. Jim Crow is dead in the toilets, at the restaurants, and it's about time it was buried when it comes to dating, sex and marriage.

Until black men see that black women are wanted and desired by other men, until they see that we have options and are not entirely dependent on them for our emotional, spiritual and physical needs, many of them will continue to treat us like second-class citizens, the leftovers at the smorgasbord, the dish that nobody wants.

It is time we black women reasserted our selves. Start dating out. Don't do it out of revenge. Don't do it to teach them a lesson. To do so would only cheapen and debase us. Do date out so we can broaden our options and our horizons. Do date out because the human family is a smorgasbord of possibility. Do date out to strengthen our respect from, and our future with, black men. Let's value ourselves. Let's free ourselves.

Maxine S.
quote:
Originally posted by GinaMarni:
It is time black women started dating out. Out as in interracially out. Out as in dating white, Latino, Asian and Native American men out. Here are a few reasons why I think dating interracially isn't only an option, it's a necessity:

Kobe Bryant, Tiger "Cablanasian" Woods, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Jason Williams, Scottie Pippen, Cuba Gooding, Quincy Jones (each of the four times he was married), Clarence Thomas and let's not forget Dennis Rodman(thank goodness), Taye Diggs. All are married to or dating white women. We can't list the number of brothers in the NBA, the NFL and Major League Baseball who date white women exclusively. There just isn't enough disk space.

Now imagine if I said Oprah, Halle, Vivica, Jada, Vanessa, Erykah, Lauryn, Whitney, Aretha, Venus and Serena were all married or engaged to white men. Or if I said they only date and marry white men and have no time whatsoever for black men. Imagine if it were true. What would be the response of black men? We all get the picture, and it's not a good feeling.

The message these men's dating pattern sends to young black women and black men, as well as the rest of the American public, is that black women are not worthy. They are not beautiful enough; they are not deserving enough.

Interracial dating is all for the good. In the best cases it leads to greater understanding between the races. Let me say this at the outset: I am an interracial dater. My primary criteria are respect, compassion and absolute devotion. The best scenario for humanity is for us to love without regard to race, class or ethnicity.

I have no problem with anyone dating interracially, but what I do consider pathological is the trend wherein many successful black men date and marry only white women. It's as if having a white woman on one's arm is a barometer of success for many black men, like winning a playoff ring.

The dating habits of these black men reflect the corrosive effects of slavery on their thinking: The notion that the white woman, the prime jewel in the white man's crown, is a symbol of status, of achievement, of long-established standards of "beauty."

It is a sad fact of life that people often attach greater value to things that are desired by others. Right now black men are under the mistaken impression that because black women have refrained from dating interracially in significant numbers, especially since the interracial dating boom in the sixties, the only option available to us is black men. They mistakenly believe that no other group of men desires us. And that if they do want us it is only as an after hour, behind-closed-doors booty call. Of course this is far from the case. Other men have always approached black women.

But because of history and the deleterious effects of slavery, discrimination and racism, we have often been skeptical of their reasons for pursuing us. Understandably, when invited out by white men we wondered if they were just trying to see what it was like with a black girl, if they believed the sex was wilder and more primitive, or if they were motivated by a guilt complex.

Further, the myth, perpetuated by slavery and racism, is that white men don't see us. Though untrue, this myth makes it harder for us to trust them. The fact is that during slavery, when black humanity was questioned, white men constantly bedded us. It was rape – the assertion of the powerful over the powerless – I agree, but if they desired us when we were deemed the ˜other,' almost alien, why would they now no longer do so?

It doesn't make sense. Sure, the efforts of the media, by and large, have been to render the black woman's beauty, intelligence and desirability invisible, or to make her an unattractive, ball-busting harpy, with strange hair, strange skin, strange ways. But all of that hasn't stopped white men from wanting us.



Maxine S.



There was a time last year, that Venus Williams was dating her white bodyguard or trainer.

*To be honest, as a black man of the South, white guys never stopped loving black women. They just very DL about it.

Just make sure the person loves you back.
First I want to say the things I agree with GinaMarni about.

1) I agree that people should just love people regardless of race. I.e., people should not put racial preferences on love.

2) Black women are beautiful and greatly underappreciated in our culture.

3) Black women ought to explore their dating options.

What I take exception to in her post is the tendency to come to conclusions about all black men based largely on the dating habits of the rich and famous ones and, even then, rich and famous or not, how can you read these mens' minds and souls to discern WHY they date outside their race?

I could be wrong but it seems to me that you're mixing a lot of personal bitterness in with these claims.

Lastly, I want to say it goes both ways. There are a lot of black men that I know who really are just as bitter and resentful toward black women. Though it may not be true in general, some black women ARE materialistic to the point of putting status on a pedestal. And many other black women seem so cynical and jaded that a guy has to be a real player just to make an impression.

I want to repeat. I'm not making a claim about all black women. But I've met quite a few women like this.

There was a time when I would have given my left arm to date a good sister. In fact, I was determined to date only black women even though I'm in a College town where there are very few. The last time I asked a sister out (she originally approached me by the way), I was stood up three times. That's when I went out and found a white woman.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
There was a time when I would have given my left arm to date a good sister....... The last time I asked a sister out (she originally approached me by the way), I was stood up three times. That's when I went out and found a white woman.
Is this a typo or a joke? Say you were not yourself when you wrote this, say anything but don't tell us you really sat down and typed this sh!t. Tell me please that you were stoned or drunk when you wrote this. Please somebody help me get my sanity back after reading this drivel.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
Seems to me, Sistas think its a little better for them the date white men. But find it appauling when black men do it. Me personally i dont date outside my race but how can you on one hand condem it and on the other hand condone it. Baffles me. Seems to me that a lot of the sistas have a problem with the brothers who have money.Like since he is now rich at least a sista should be a the one to reap the benifits, when more than likely the same sista would not have talked to the brother before he gained the fame . Many brothers think sistas are too superficial and materialistic. Just like the sistas who talk all this about black men, what about the ones thats living everyday blue collar lives, do they not count? Either you love yourself black people or you dont. Dont comprimise your integrity just because you are turned down by some sistas or some brothers . Maybe its the type of person you are looking for thats the problem!

"I AM BECAUSE WE ARE"
[/QUOTE]Is this a typo or a joke? Say you were not yourself when you wrote this, say anything but don't tell us you really sat down and typed this sh!t. Tell me please that you were stoned or drunk when you wrote this. Please somebody help me get my sanity back after reading this drivel.[/QUOTE]

First off, can you please be specific and explain what makes my point of view 'drivel'? Having said this, I'll go the mature route and won't take any of your remarks personally.

I'll do even better and attempt to clarify my statement. No. White was not the only solution. I admit my wording was sloppy and you might have got the impression that I deliberately and specifically sought a white woman.

My point was that there came a time when I decided not to limit myself and to be open to a broader dating experience. You know? To deal with human beings as human beings and not as colors?

I'll also add that I'm NOT one who claims to exclusively date people on the basis of race or ethnicity.

I just find it funny that the sisters who wouldn't give me the time of day when I was single are now so very very interested in my dating choices.
The reason why it is incredible and can be put down to drivel is your reasons for going with a white woman. Because a few sisters stood you up is not a good reason to give up on black women. Granted no one is saying its wrong to go with a white woman but to say you only went with white women because sisters stood you up is a bit much and it does not show much respect for the woman you are with now because she is second best. People hurt each other especially people from their own race. Would you give up on black people because a black man hurt you? Surely not so the way you worded your reason for giving up and going with a white woman sounds like you are looking for excuses to justify your actions

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
To the contrary, I have not 'given up' on black women. Were I single and presented with the opportunity to date a compatible black woman, I would. In fact, I met a very intelligent and attractive sister a few weeks ago and sensed some chemistry. Had I been single, I would have asked her out. To my credit, I AM faithful - no matter the race of the woman I'm with.

My apologies again if the wording of my first post caused some confusion.
No need to apologise but I think you should stick with your decision because any negative action you take may break some poor woman's heart through no fault of her own.

I don't envy you though because as a black man I think black women with their great athletic figures are the best thing on this planet and if I was in your situation would feel trapped and downwright miserable.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:

Is this a typo or a joke? Say you were not yourself when you wrote this, say anything but don't tell us you really sat down and typed this sh!t. Tell me please that you were stoned or drunk when you wrote this. Please somebody help me get my sanity back after reading this drivel.[/QUOTE]

First off, can you please be specific and explain what makes my point of view 'drivel'? Having said this, I'll go the mature route and won't take any of your remarks personally.

...

I just find it funny that the sisters who wouldn't give me the time of day when I was single are now so very very interested in my dating choices.[/QUOTE]

hmmm...perhaps, now that you've matured, you excuse yourself when you fart? or, perhaps, you've a little more "something" on your mind? or, perhaps, they (those sisters) have matured?

dude, you seemed to've suckled a little on mummy's breast.

henry': solid posts! but ~ we know ~ most sistas aren't kickin' it like that of our late "flo-jo". more like "star jones" would be a more accurate take. incidently, honest': are these the type of sisters that are giving you play?
quote:
Originally posted by afro-geek/mocove:
henry': solid posts! but ~ we know ~ most sistas aren't kickin' it like that of our late "flo-jo". more like "star jones" would be a more accurate take. incidently, honest': are these the type of sisters that are giving you play?
You know Geek you are funny. You forget I am in England so I don't know about star jones. In England they tend to look more like flo Jo. I am married to one and she is almost 40 with three kids and still looks eighteen plus drop dead gorgeously beautiful.

Recently she visited Africa met my family and brought back the video, man you should see the look of of envy on the face of my two brothers. I am tickled to bits and love showing the video to everyone.

Eighteen years together and the best deal I ever made.

_____________________________
Is it just talk or are you for solutions? If you are GENUINELY interested in solving black problems? Then join us at http://www.theguidedog.com/BlackNation.html
Interesting...

This topic is often discussed in the various circle I travel in. For me, my preference is Black Women. Nothing is more beautiful that a Black Women. I truly appreciate her mental, physically and emotional make-up. On the other hand, I would be lying if I said that I have not been sexually attracted to women from different racial groups, but I am well aware of where home is.

I have many friends and frat brothers who date/ sexually interact with white women. I don't knock them. In my conversations with these men, I get the feeling that they have been wronged or ignored by Black women. By no means is that an excuse from them ignoring you all, but it is a step in the right direction of explaining their actions.

With wealthy Black men, the trend seems to be as my Dad says, "pockets get fatter, clothes get tigher and your women get lighter." I have yet to fully understand that, but i am sure that it has to do with the whole white woman trophy theory. Some brothers feel that they "have not made it," until they get a white women. Regardless of the case, if the love is sincere then, let it be.

In the meantime, I have recently become single. It is interesting to see how females react to a brother that is about business. I enjoy it! If some men refuse to embrace Black women....don't worry, there are MANY men like me who adore you all.

Stay Up! soapbox
these are all very interesting points of view, thanks for sharing upfro

________________________________
To Sigma

Thy Scattered sons with lofty hopes and aims,
Achieving greatness which the world proclaims,
Regarding life with tenderness sublime,
And with design which knows no race or clime,
Appeals to selfish man to serve and love
God`s handiwork created from above;
PHI BETA SIGMA stands this test of years
Supremely over blight and cringing fears,
With unflinching will that cannot fail,
The sacred cause advances to prevail.
Give us the conscience staunch and spirit brave,
To master stormy sea and angry wave,
And as the curtain falls o`er this brief life,
We`ll march triumphant from this din and strife.


-Bro. Nnamdi Azikiwe-First President of Nigeria, G.O.M.A.B. 1914

I think that you all are going about this the wrong way...dating and love is non race orientated. You guys sound like race is the most frequent subject on you mind. I've been in both same race and interracial relationships and none of them were based on their ethnic background. No matter what some other black woman (man) has done it should never be push over on the rest of the them. not all black me are after white women even though there are some that happen to be in the public light...you speak of Kobe...but what about the other. Why aren't they mentioned. And for the guys not ever black women is materialistic and thew ones who are materialistic are not that way because they're black it's because of the bullshit propaganda that says that black women are supposed to be this way...so if you wanna attack something , attack MTV and BET and all these other company's allowing music that promote this bullshit...c'mon some of the very songs you listen to promote this shit..."If the status good I ain't looking" this form one of the most influential black women today...BEYONCE...why not attack her?...and you allow your daughters to listen to this bullshit and get mad when they turn into another statistic...it's the whole races fault! WOMEN AND MEN...for embracing this shit as our culture..it's not ..this shit was started here in america and has nothing to do with african culture...so it shouldn't be "Black MALE self-HATRED...WAKE UP!!!!!". It should be "Black people self-HATRED...WAKE UP!!!!!"
quote:
Originally posted by Picasso Unfold:
I think that you all are going about this the wrong way...dating and love is non race orientated. You guys sound like race is the most frequent subject on you mind. I've been in both same race and interracial relationships and none of them were based on their ethnic background. No matter what some other black woman (man) has done it should never be push over on the rest of the them. not all black me are after white women even though there are some that happen to be in the public light...you speak of Kobe...but what about the other. Why aren't they mentioned. And for the guys not ever black women is materialistic and thew ones who are materialistic are not that way because they're black it's because of the bullshit propaganda that says that black women are supposed to be this way...so if you wanna attack something , attack MTV and BET and all these other company's allowing music that promote this bullshit...c'mon some of the very songs you listen to promote this shit..."If the status good I ain't looking" this form one of the most influential black women today...BEYONCE...why not attack her?...and you allow your daughters to listen to this bullshit and get mad when they turn into another statistic...it's the whole races fault! WOMEN AND MEN...for embracing this shit as our culture..it's not ..this shit was started here in america and has nothing to do with african culture...so it shouldn't be "Black MALE self-HATRED...WAKE UP!!!!!". It should be "Black people self-HATRED...WAKE UP!!!!!"


appl Well said.

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