The Ethnicity of the Egyptians is the key to understanding the Blackness of the Hebrews and surrounding nations.

The genealogical chart in Genesis 10 lists Ham/Khem as the father of Africans and from Africans came Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Kushites/Nubians. The proper word Khem/Kam means Black. These intermarried with the Hebrews and so produce the Hebrew nation of Israel.

That is the Jewish line itself was that of Black/African Canaanite woman named Tamar (Genesis 38:1-5),

The Canaanites were descendants of Ham/Khem (Gen. 10:6). Again, the word means Black.

Abraham beget the Arab line through an Egyptian woman Hagar. She then picked a Egyptian wife for her son Ishmael who would father the original Black/African Arabs (Genesis 16; 21:21). The original arabs were Black/African.

The Egyptians are identified in the Bible as Hamites/Khemites (Psalm 106:21-22; 78:51; 105:27).

Scripture states, "Israel sojourned in Egypt the land of HAM/KHEM' Psalm 78:51.

The establishment of the Hebrew nation is told in the Pentateuch or first five books of the Bible also called the Torah. Throughout the first five books we see Hebrews intermarrying with Black/African Egyptians, Canaanites, Kushites all listed under descendants of HAM/KHEM (Genesis 10:6).

The Israelites went down into Black/Egypt a total of 70 and came out a MIXED MULTITUDE OF OVER 600.000 (Ex. 1:5; 12:37-38).

That mixed multitude consisted of marrying the Black/Egyptians and other Hamite/Khemite blacks that dwelt amidst them. Leviticus verifies that Black/Egyptians were they who the Hebrews married in that we have a black Hebrew woman married to a Egyptian man (Leviticus 24:10).

So verifying that the Hebrews were African/Kushite in stock, color, appearance.

The Hebrews were commanded 'not to abhor the Black/Egyptians' and of course Moses was trained in the wisdom of the Egyptians (Deut. 23:7; Acts 7:22).
Also, you have Joseph marrying the High an Egyptian woman by the name of Zaphenath-paneah. Her father was high priest of the Egyptian city On. His name was Poti-phera (Gen. 41:45).

These had 2 sons, Ephraim and Mannasah (Gen. 41:50-52). These became two tribes of Israel. So again showing Black/African Hamite/Khemite stock in color and appearance.

Okay, this leads to the crucial key to the identity of the BLACK HEBREWS. Joseph is the KEY FACTOR. Joseph, is sold out by his brothers and through a series of events becomes governer over Egypt (Genesis 41). His brothers come to by grain and they do not recognize their brother and describe him as a BLACK/AFRICAN EGYPTIAN by reason of their inability to recognize him as their brother. Now, if they were any other color but BLACK/AFRICAN Joseph would have stood out like a beacon light. Indeed, it is the Bible that tells us that his brothers had to examine him closely to see that he was not a BLACK/AFRICAN EGYPTAIN but a BLACK/AFRICAN HEBREW (Gensis 45:1-7).

As well, Moses was described by the intelligent daughters of Jethro as a 'BLACK/EGYPTIAN (Ex. 2:19). The Midianites were also Ethiopians (Numbers 12:1). Zipporah the BLACK/ETHIOPIAN WOMAN had 2 sons by Moses Gershom and Eliezer (Ex. 2:21; 18:4). These were incorporated in the Levitical line and they were Black/AFrican Khemite/Semite which as shown one had to examine closely to know the difference (1 Chr. 23:15).

Now, the sons of Japheth of whom whites identify themselves as and the dictionary defines as rising up and establishing Greece, Rome, and part of Mede were scattered and besides that only 2 of the 7 sons had descendants, that totaled 7 (Gen. 10:2-5) History tells us these were separated from Ham and Shem and went to dwell in the Caucasas mountains. They were the original barbarian and savage, isolated and non-productive.

Whereas, as shown Ham and Shem were intermarrying and the Hamites were dominant above Shem and Japheth. The Hamites created and inhabited Egypt, Sumeria, Babylon, Persia, Nubia and a host of Canaanite lands (Genesis 10:5-20).

David married the Black/African Kushite woman Bath sheba. Bath Sheba means Daughter of Sheba. Sheba is listed under the Hamites/Khemites i(Genesis 10:7).

Oh, JOSHUA SON OF NUN was a descendant of EPHRAIM who was Joseph's son by his Black/African wife Asenath (2 Sam. 11:3-12:24). BATHSHEBA was the AFRICAN/KUSHITE MOTHER OF SOLOMON THE WISEST MAN TO EVER LIVE ( 2 Sam. 12:24). She also had a still born son of David.

Solomon married a Pharoah of his era's Black/AFrican Egyptian daughter and built her a grand palace (1 Ki. 3:1;7:8).

In fact, the Bible tells us that the Black/Israelites continue to marry Black/AFrican Phillistines, Egyptians, Ethiopians, Kushites, Nubians, all throughout their history (Neh. 13:23; Ezra 2:4-6,14).

So we see, there is Biblical proof of the Black origin of the Hebrews/Israelite/Jews of the Bible.

[This message was edited by Prophetessofrage on January 17, 2004 at 04:24 PM.]
Original Post
"The Colchians, Ethiopians and Egyptians have thick lips,
broad nose, woolly hair and they are burnt of skin."
-- Herodotus, 450 BC

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/RTGhistory.htm

Oh, and let us not forget that TACITUS THAT ROMAN HISTORIAN wrote, 'The JEWS OF 90 AD and abounding in EUROPE were called ETHIOPIANS' Now mind you, that's 90 years after the death of Black Jesus. If they were Black after his death it's for darn sure they were ETHIOPIAN/BLACK LOOKING PRIOR to his death.

Return To Glory: The Powerful Stirring of the Black Man

In many sectors there seems to be some controversy about the racial make-up of the Egyptian people, i.e. whether they were White or Black. This is a simplistic approach to a much more complicated set of circumstances since Egypt's strategic location brought people in from the south with Nubian and equatorial African influence and from the northern coast of Africa and the Middle East with Afro-Mediterranean and Semitic influences. The Biblical record places Egypt among the "Black" countries. Melanin dosage tests of mummified remains (controversial due to damage caused by the embalming process) seem to indicate a level of melanocytes consistent with a people of a semi tropical to temperate climate zone.

Egypt continues to dominate the focus of our African oriented studies. These studies have clearly demonstrated that not only were early Egypt's origins African, but that through the whole of Egypt's Dynastic Era (the age of the Pharaohs), and during all of her many periods of national splendor, men and women with black skin complexions, broad noses, full lips, and tightly curled hair, were dominant in both the general population and governing elite.

In the intense and unrelenting struggle to establish scientifically the African foundations of Egyptian civilization, the late Senegalese scholar Dr. Cheikh Anta Diop remains a most fierce and ardent champion. Dr. Diop (1923-1986) was without a doubt one of the world's leading Egyptologist and held the position of Director of the Radiocarbon Laboratory at the Fundamental Institute of Black Africa in Dakar, Senegal. In stating the importance of the work, Diop noted emphatically and early on that, "The history of Black Africa will remain suspended in air and cannot be written correctly until African historians dare to connect it with the history of Egypt."

The solid range of methodologies employed by Dr. Diop in the course of his extensive Afro-Egyptian labors included: examinations of the epidermis of the mummies of Egyptian kings for verification of their melanin content; precise osteological measurements and meticulous studies in the various relevant areas of anatomy and physical anthropology; careful examinations and comparisons of modern Upper Egyptian and West African blood-types; detailed Afro-Egyptian linguistic studies and the corroboration of distinct Afro-Egyptian cultural traits; documents of racial designations employed by the early Africans themselves; Biblical testimonies and references that address the ancient Egyptian's ethnicity, race and culture; and the writings of early Greek and Roman travelers and scholars describing the physical characteristics of the ancient Egyptians.

The original Egyptians were unmixed pure black folks. When they were at the pinnacle of their glory they were not a mixed group by any means. During the middle dynasties especially (and later) when people migrated to this great land there was some intermarrying. This is natural and doesn't need to be debated. It was even done within royalty lines at times to solidify alliances, which was a common practice between powers during that period of history. Chancellor Williams refers to this phenomenon in his book "The Destruction of Black Civilization." And frankly, he theorizes that this mixing was part of the reason for the fall of Black Civilization. Nevertheless, there was never so much of this that at any time the ancient Egyptians could ever be classified as other than a black people.

It's reasonable to say that Egypt was a gateway for the meeting and interchange of goods, ideas, and people; and that the Egyptians were themselves a unique _expression of human strength, beauty, intelligence and diversification. Ancient Egypt was an African civilization. It is also interesting to note that the Biblical record states "Israel also came into Egypt...the land of Ham." (Psalm 105: 23).

Plus we need to be reminded that Egypt is in Africa (not the Middle East) and that all of the Pharaohs (up to and including the 25th Dynasty) would have been required to "sit at the back of a bus" in the 1940s in Montgomery Alabama. Let's allow the pictures to speak for themselves...Ready?
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Oh, and just so we can get a PEEK SEE at the TRUTH click on the following links to see the CLEARLY DEFINED BLACK/AFRICAN EGYPTIAN IMAGES....Enjoy and tootaloo now.

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix1.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix2.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix3.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix4.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix5.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix6.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix7.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix8.htm

[This message was edited by Prophetessofrage on January 17, 2004 at 08:54 AM.]
The Lemba: The Black Jews of Southern Africa
Badagry, Nigeria -- Slave Trade History

Historical Introduction

Over 2,700 years ago, the Assyrians exiled the ten tribes of the Kingdom of Israel. "In the ninth year of Hoshea, the king of Assyria captured Samaria and he carried them away to Assyria and placed them in Halah, and on the Habor, the river of Gozan, and in the cities of Medes." In the years 722-721 BC (over 2700 years ago), the Ten Tribes who comprised the northern Kingdom of Israel disappeared. Conquered by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, they were exiled to upper Mesopotamia and Medes, today modern Syria and Iraq. The Ten Tribes of Israel have never been seen since. Or have they?

*****************************************

Tudor Parfitt, the protagonist of the NOVA documentary "Lost Tribes of Israel," made a journey through southern Africa to study the unusual traditions of a black African tribe called the Lemba. This Bantu-speaking group claimed Jewish ancestry and observed many Semitic traditions such as kosher-like dietary restrictions and slaughter practices, male circumcision rites, strict rules against intermarriage, and Semitic-sounding clan names.

Once described as "a sort of British Indiana Jones," Parfitt spent many months with the Lemba, meeting their tribal and religious leaders and observing some of their most sacred rituals. He came to the conclusion that the origin of many of the Lemba traditions was indeed Semitic, not African. But whether these traditions came from Islamic or Jewish sources was impossible to discern from the historical and anthropological evidence available. It would take Y-chromosome studies to delve deeper into this question of origin.

A few years after his travels, Parfitt teamed up with a group from The Center for Genetic Anthropology at University College London to look for a genetic counterpart to the Lemba's oral tradition of Jewish descent. Using a relatively new technique in genetic studies, the team identified a particular series of genetic markers on the Y chromosome of Lemba males. They then compared these markers to other groups with whom the Lemba might have shared a common ancestor long ago.

The team collected DNA samples from Bantu (African), Yemeni (Arab), and Sephardic Jews and Azhkenazi Jews (including Cohanim from both communities) to compare the amount of similarity that existed between each of these groups. As we've seen, the more similar the Y chromosome, the more closely related are some individuals in the different groups to a common paternal ancestor. As a consequence, one can establish links between populations.



In an interview with NOVA, team member Dr. David Goldstein commented on the team's findings: "The first striking thing about the Y chromosomes of the Lemba is that you find this particular chromosomal type (Cohen modal haplotype) that is characteristic of the Jewish priesthood in a frequency that is similar to what you see in major Jewish populations. Something just under one out of every 10 Lemba that we looked at had this particular Y chromosomal type that appears to be a signature of Jewish ancestry. Perhaps even more striking is the fact that this Cohen genetic signature is strongly associated with a particular clan in the Lemba. Most of the Cohen modal haplotypes that we observe are carried by individuals of the Buba clan which, in Lemba oral tradition, had a leadership role in bringing the Lemba out of Israel."

What this study shows is that the Lemba, and more specifically some members of the Buba sub-clan, seem to have an ancestral connection to Judaic populations. Like an oral history, but written in the letters of their DNA, the Lemba Y chromosome hands from father to son a living record of the past.


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B L A C K B L O O D I N I S R A E L?

* Genesis 12:16 – Not only Hagar, but many of Abraham's servants were gifts from
Pharaoh and in this period it is fairly likely that many were Nubians. (approx. 1921 BC)
* Genesis 13: 6-8 – Abraham had a large number of herdsmen and 318 male servants who
were born into his house.
* Genesis 25 – Isaac, Abraham's son and then Jacob inherited everything.
* Genesis41:50 – Joseph fathered two tribes, Ephraim and Manasseh, by an Egyptian wife,
automatically making Israel nearly 10 percent Egyptian. Joshua was from one of these
half-African tribes, Ephraim; in later years this tribe became so dominant that the
northern tribes of Israel were sometimes simply called "Ephraim". When the Israelites
were subjected to slavery under the Egyptians, they and their former servants were now
all defined as Israel together; this means that much intermarriage must have taken
place.

* Exodus 12:38 – After 400 years, a "mixed multitude" left Egypt during the Exodus.


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http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/lemba.htm
PROPRIEITY: Black History for Buddhists, Christians & Muslims

by John L. Ellis, M.B.A.

Part 1: Fraud

The contributions of black people as a whole to modern and ancient civilization are so profound and fundamental that a very strong case could be made in favor of their proprietorship In regards to all of the worlds sciences, arts and philosophies, One reason this is not a widely known fact is the long held tradition among modern western scholars which distort the facts with racist, anti"‘Black interpretation. In order to perpetrate these falsifications, they are obliged to ignore the ancient historical Greek scholars such as Pliny, Erastothenes, Plutarch, Diadorus and Herodotus. In fact nearly all ancient Greek and Roman historians give a record that is quite at odds with the falsifications of western scholars of today. They have to ignore the archaeological and anthropological evidence of the Sphinx and the pyramids in addition to the works of Dr. Leaky and Dr, Diop. In addition, whenever advantageous to do so, they confuse the ethnicity of ancient peoples, for example; promoting that ancient Egyptians are white and that Egypt is in the Middle East as opposed to being in Africa, Objective observation of all the evidence indicates that we are dealing with the most monstrous falsification in the history all humanity which leads to the single most tragic event in history, the destruction of Black civilization, Continued misrepresentation regarding true African history will eventually plummet, et the entire planet into a conflict between the races. This is because it is out right slanderous for anyone to think of Blacks the ancestral source of all humanity, as inferior in any way.



Archaeologists have found the oldest form of writing known to man in Africa. Throughout the ancient city of Meroe, all of the temples, pyramids and monuments are covered with African languages older than anything extant. However, based on groundless assertions, modern scholars give credit to Asians for the invention of writing.



If you start history of the fall of the Roman Empire, you eliminate 4,000 years of the greatest parts of Black civilization. If you name each period after the invading occupants of Africa, then you obliterate blackness as being of any significant historical import. These and other policies are utilized by the American Historical Association and similar such organizations, For example: They list Period I. as 700 A.D. to 1500 A.D. (what happened to pre 700?), Period II becomes Islamic Civilization, Period III becomes European Civilization and Period IV is Colonialism, in other words, according to them, there is no Black Civilization in African History.



Throughout the western scholastic world; black Pharaohs become white or Asiatic, the Black population of Egypt is never counted as Egyptian, white kings of lower are presented as Pharaohs of all Egypt, African names are replaced with European, Arab or Asian and Hammites and Cushites are presented as white, when they are obviously Black. Millions of blacks become non African and Egypt becomes white with the stroke of a pen. An additional tactic involved strategically occupying the coastal locations in order to isolate the blacks from the rest of the world. Non"‘Blacks were then able to effectively claim all great black achievements as their own. The fact is, Egypt was a civilized slate for over 10,000 years when the Persians first invaded in 525 B.C. followed by the Macedonians, the Romans, the Arabs, the Turks, and England. All of these people were barbarians when they entered Africa as compared to the heights of civilization African cultures had already attained.
Part II. Ethnicity

A very important point to remember is that Asians are not native to ancient Africa, The appearance of Arab-Asian people in Africa is due to their role as invaders, plunderers and usurpers. In this context, Asian imperialism was for mare devastating in Africa than either that of Europe or America. There is an enormous amount of evidence which shows that ancient Egypt was owned, ruled and inhabited by blacks. In an attempt to deny the Black origins of humanity, modern scholars try to attribute the high level of civilization of ancient Egypt to the "external influence" represented by contact with Asians! This is racist propaganda at the highest level because there is absolutely no foundation what so ever to indicate that African civilization came from Asia.



These types of falsifications abound in modern culture and literature but not in ancient sources. The fact that western scholars have always put a white face on black greatness is attested to by several historical deceptions which have become institutionalized by western society. For example, most people are ignorant of the fact that there are two types of black Africans. This is important to understand because it is a fact that is conveniently ignored by modern historians in their white"‘washing of the world's oldest culture. It can be observed that one type of Black has wooly hair and thick features while the other (which is probably more ancient) has straight hair and fine features, Examples of blacks with straight hair and fine features would include the Dravidians of India and the Nubians of Africa, Therefore, it is a mistake to assume that Blacks with straight hair have white or Asian ancestry the way that western historians are prone to do.

Distortions regarding the ethnicity of key historical figures cause people to become deluded in regards to the debt of gratitude that they owe to the ancient ancestors of all mankind. One type of world"‘wide delusion involves the ethnicity of Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed. All of these men would be considered as black people if we go by today's standards, The some is true with ancient biblical people like Moses and the Israelites, There is no way that 70 Jews are going to, live 'in an all Black world (Egypt) and grow to 600,000 within 400 years of intermarriage with Africans and not turn black itself! Here is a list of some of the Black people (by today's standards) in biblical literature: Moses and his Medianite wife, Joseph and his brothers, Abraham and all Medianites, Cushites, Canaanites, Hittites, etcetera.

Simply put, there is more evidence for a black .Jesus than a white one and in order to be politically correct you must be historically correct. Matthew chapter 1, verses 1"‘17 names at least three Black women in Jesus' ancestry. In addition, descriptions of Jesus are found in Revelations 1, verses 14"‘15 and Daniel 7, verse 9, are at the very least of a non"‘white man. In fact, the Roman Emperor, Justinian the Great minted a gold coin that carried a depiction of Jesus as a wooIy"‘hoired Black man. It Is a matter of historical record that all early statues, paintings and other depictions of Jesus and Mary were black throughout Europe until around 400 A,D. (i.e, Black Madonna). To this very day, the Black Madonna is being held at the Vatican in Rome, Worship of the Black Madonna and the Egyptian goddess Isis were both well established in Europe by 1450 A.D. . However, RA become politically expedient to change the color of Black Jesus to a white Christ it) order to continue the enslavement of Blacks world"‘wide.



When the historical Buddha, Shakyamuni or Gautama Siddhartha was born, the ancient Hindu peoples were mostly Black Cushites and Black Dravidians . This would account for, the many portrayals of Buddha with wooly hair and references to him as the "Peppercorn God", Contrary to what is generally taught about the caste system in ancient India, social standing had nothing to do with color. Thus, a black Dravidian or black Cushite could occupy the highest place in society and frequently did, In any event, Shakyamuni, being born into the Black world of ancient Indio was definitely non"‘white and most probably Black. In his "Historie du Japan", Koempfer states that the Buddha was on Egyptian priest who was chased from Memphis by the persecutions of Corribyses. This is strong evidence for positing an African origin for Buddhist thought. Buddhist concepts such a karma, reincarnation and ancestor reverence all were in existence in Africa thousands of years before the historical Buddha was born. The same can be said for Christianity and Islam to the extent that their religious ideas were borrowed from ancient African principles, The belief in one supreme god was also in existence in Africa long before the advent of Jesus or Muhammad. The entire pantheon of Catholic pantheon originated as African sub"‘deities of so"‘called "pagan" blacks.



All of this can best be put in proper perspective if you observe modern world"‘wide practices concerning ethnicity, One such practice is to classify people in the United States who have any amount of Black blood in their ancestry as being Black while conversely, in the African and the Arab worlds, any amount of Caucasian blood in someone's ancestry classifies them as white, This type of double talk is typical when encountering the racist interpretations of modern western historical scholarship. What this tactic does is create enough confusion so that the blackest people on earth can become Caucasian, if that is what is politically desirable. And conversely, people with very light skin are called black, if that is convenient to do so politically. This double"‘standard is being perpetrated world"‘wide, yet most are not even aware of it because is has become so institutionalized in modern cultures.



The blackness of ancient Egyptian civilization is undisputable, It is also a very critical factor in understanding how the world has been mislead by western scholars in regards to the great contributions these people have made to the world. After due credit is given to these original peoples, one has to wonder what is left for others to claim if anything is left at all, The evidence is conclusive, In 1961, Dr. C.A, Diop author of the book " African Origin of Civilization" was able to determine the Black Ethnicity of several mummies stared in French Museums, One of the things he discovered was that the skin of theses mummies contained the same type of melanin pigmentation found in the skin of all other Africans, This discovery confirms ages old data given by the ancient Greeks. In fact, Herodotus refers to the ancient Egyptians as "Melanchroes" meaning Black"‘skinned people. Nearly all of the ancient Greek and Roman historians give similar accounts which are totally at odds with the picture being pointed today as if Blacks have no history or culture of their own.



The melanin molecule is not just a pigmentation element. It is a very powerful and versatile chemical that is found in almost all of the internal organs of humans. It is also found in the eyes, skin and hair. The word melanin is a Greek word that means black, The purest form of this substance is called eumelanin and it ranges in color from dark brown to very Black.



The major purpose of this molecule seems to be to act as a shield from harmful radiation. So, as our so"‘called "advanced" technology" destroys the ozone layers, melanin becomes a critical element' for survival on this planet. Therefore, the strongest melanin provides the best protection. Other properties include conductivity, insulation, antiviral and neurotransmitter. Bullet train technology is based upon the super conductivity of artificial melanin molecules. The synthetic melanin of Dr. Barnes is being used to coat the circuits of all NASA space vehicles. 1990 AIDS researchers proved that [he virus is unable to survive in the presence of fully functional melanin molecules. Pheo-melanin or psuedo-melanin is a weaker form of melanin that is lighter in color than eumelanin. These two forms of melanin and various combinations thereof, in turn produce the six basic types of melanated peoples in the world today .

Part III: Origins

To repeat, the interpretations of African History given by modern western scholars is a form of white supremacy racist propaganda, pure and simple . In contrast to this, the whites of the ancient world did not question the fact that Africa (Ethiopia) was the principle center of learning in the entire world. This is attested to by their accounts of the ancient African city of Thebes (Nowe), which was also known as the "University City". According to them this was the oldest city or) the planet at that time. The early Greek and Roman scholars unanimously proclaim that their western culture was copied from the architectural and religious knowledge of African civilization, For example, Herodotus refers to studying in Ethiopia with pride and confirms that key elements of Greek civilization were borrowed from Egypt, the "cradle of civilization". He and Diodorus also confirm that the ancient Egyptians were Black people and that these Thebans were "the first men on earth", Diodorus also cites the ancient blacks as the original source of Greek philosophy, astrology and astronomy.



It is estimated that Herodotus went to Egypt around 625 B.C. in order to study at the, world famous "University City" of Thebes, he, Monetho, Plutcrach and nearly all of the other Greek scholars estimate at or around 17,000 B.C. as the beginning of Egyptian civilization, In addition, even modern scholars have to admit that 'the calendar was invented in Egypt as early a 4,245 B.C.



One of the main purposes of this work is to show that all theories of inherent black inferiority are bogus. These slanderous policies and practices stemmed from a need to justify confining slavery to Blacks alone. In essence, the prisoner of war slavery that all peoples were subject to, become open season on blacks primarily because of the Marmeluke Rebellion (1300 A.D,). The Marmelukes were enslaved white mercenaries and soldiers who staged such a bloody, shocking and ruthless rebellion, that slave"‘traders world"‘wide never again hunted whites for enslavement. With the demand for Black slaves increasing and that for white slaves decreasing thus began the moss migrations to escape the slave ­hunters. Millions of blacks were forced to take refuge in swamps and coves only to be forced out by people already hiding there. The partitioning of African and the enslavement of its people has led to a primitive form of existence for many. These unfortunate souls are always used, as examples of African cultures. Therefore, the rationale for the inferiorization of Blacks for political purposes is re"‘enforced.



In 2,600 B~ C., the Black Bantu Pharaoh Chephren, built the great Sphinx in his own image. In addition he also built the Great Pyramid of Giza . Today, the nose of the Sphinx, a monument to Black greatness, has been disfigured in a vain attempt to hide the African features. However the European scholar Count Constantinde Volney (1757"‘1820 A,D,), not only confirms that the model for the Sphinx is black, he also asserts that Blacks are the primary source of the worlds arts, sciences and languages. In fact, the latest archeological! findings of Dr. Louis Leakey and others shows overwhelmingly that the first Homo"‘Sapiens of 40,000 B,C, are black people (Upper Paleolithis (Potassium 40/Argon dating these and other facts are attested to in objective works such as "Fossil Men" by Boule & Vallois, where they document their examinations of ancient ruins and human remains. Additionally, Leakey cites blacks as the ancestral source of all the other races of mankind in his "Monogenetic Thesis of Humanity".

Part IV: Evidence

There is strong evidence that white skin is a form of albinism. Both conditions Caucasians and albinism, are genetically recessive traits and microscopically, there is no difference between the two types of skin, This lack of melanin was serious taboo to ancient Africans, so the albino populations become isolated. Furthermore, they could no longer withstand the strong equatorial sun and had to migrate north to cooler climes, These people become the early European and Asian races and 20,000 B.C. is the estimated time-line of their appearance as a group, the result of a process coiled "depigmentation", as described by Dr. C. A. Diop & Dr, F. C. Welsing, Interestingly, Diop also postulates the possibility of Asians as being Mulattoes with the cold and windy Asian weather accounting for their facial and eye s(ructure. The incidence of indigenous blacks 'in early Asian histories is backed up by the existence of the Ainu and Negrito Black populations in ancient Japan, "For a samurai to be brave, he must have a bit of black blood. ("Ancient Japanese proverb), Ancient blacks in southern China are also a testimony to an ancient world populated by blacks, producing whites and then eventually the Mulatto"‘like Asians.


In his lost major work, "Moses and Monotheism", Sigmund Freud illustrates how the Judeo"‘Christian belief in one supreme god is actually derived from ancient African religions, Monotheism in Africa antedated the Jews by several thousand years before Abraham. In addition, the roles various African sub"‘deities are exactly the same as those of the patron saints of the Christian world. The fact that Africans are a very religious people was not ignored by the invading plunderers of "The continent, Islam and Christianity become the leading weapons in the rope and pillage of ancient Africa. This has been accomplished by first sending in missions of brotherhood and peace. After establishing themselves among the Africans the conversion process begins, Africans who refused peaceful conversion were either killed of exiled .

It was around 1,400 B,C, when , as I mentioned earlier, 70 Sheppard's folk from Palestine, fleeing famine and upon coming to Egypt found the paradise of the Nile Valley. However, the Egyptians were fearful of the growing numbers of Jews among them and decided to take genocidal precautions to control the population growth. In other words, the Jews were severely oppressed by the Black Egyptians. All male children were eliminated and stringent restrictions were in place to limit the number of pregnancies among the Jews. Thus, when early Hebrew biblical literature was written, it reflected contempt that for the Blacks that had enslaved and oppressed them. This is the main reason behind the so"‘called "curse" on Ham (Genesis 9;25"‘27). It natural to curse your enemies and so blackness became a curse in all biblical literature and therefore all of western culture.



The predynastic times of 4,500 B.C. shows Africa with the most advanced civilization at that time in history, Africans had a real system of self government based upon a Constitutional representation by a Council of Elders, This advanced system of government was based upon a Constitution that is universal throughout all African culture. The earliest form of democracy known to man has been misinterpreted by western scholars as "chiefless", "kingless" and "stateless", Fortunately, because of the African belief in reincarnation, ancient Pharaohs hove immortalized the greatness of ancient black civilizations on such a grand and colossal scale that the truth is there for all who honestly seek it.



As the worlds oldest known city, Thebes (Nowe) also had the greatest number of temples, which were also centers of learning or universities. To this very day, the evidence and artifacts from this great legendary city can be found in the various "museums" world"‘wide. One thing to keep in mind is that this plunder was stolen by people who were barbarians compared to the proprietors of the artifacts and treasures of ancient Africa. All of the ancient obelisks, pyramids and stone masonry that existed in Thebes was for beyond anything the invading hordes had ever seen before.



The fight for the wealthiest continent on earth was in the works as the Eurasian countries began dividing the long coveted "promised land" 'into the portioned principalities observed in present times. Historically, a list of invaders would begin with Babylon in 2,1100 B.C., the Jerusalem in 1,400 B.C., followed by Athens, Rome and Antioch at 1,200, 1,000 & 400 B.C. respectively. The practice of attributing the high level of civilization attained by the ancient Egyptians to some type of external influence is very common among modern western scholars. What is interesting is that they have very little evidence for such absurd assumptions. There is however a substantial amount of information that testifies to the fact that all of the primitive nomadic invaders eventually based their entire civilizations upon what they learned originally from Africa.


http://www.proudblackbuddhist.org/NichirenShoshu/John%20Ellis%20Black%20History%20I.htm

[This message was edited by Prophetessofrage on January 17, 2004 at 04:21 PM.]
Hi Afroman, I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments but these guys sure used this opportunity to expose what the Bible would call the 'deceits of the devil.' Let me add, not only was this deceiver recognizably so by it's racist disposition but the reason I have no respect for their vile evil is as Sun Nubian more or less stated, 'they do not come to debate their lies and deceits rather to spout them. They are as the Bible would call them the 'seed of Satan' and their entire disposition is to 'cast truth to the ground' and lift up lies and deceits in its place (Dn. 8:12,23-25).

A sincere person comes forth sincere in identity and disposition but these hatemongers hurl hateful lies at truth as it makes their demonic blood boil to hear the truth. A legion of demonic spirits lives in them and this is why they spout, denounce, and stupidly seek to explain away 'truth', be it blatant or subtle. As the Bible would say, 'they will strain at a gnat and swallow a camel' rather than admit truth as they are anti-truth, anti-christ, seeds of satan (Jn. 8:44;10:10).

Sun Nubian to put this matter to rest, below is the findings of the greatest scholar ever to live, Diop. As Kraal spoke, he is a honest, truthful man who examined those that the white's alone, (well plus their subjugated coloreds) lie and claim are the 'greatest historians, scientists' of civilization, the Greeks.

However, all of the Greek's writings point to Black/Egypt and Ethiopia. By the way Ethiopia means 'sun burnt' and is the Greek word for Cush/Kush which is defined as 'Black.' Cush/Kush is listed in the Genealogical record as a descendant of Ham/Khem who also means 'Chem...black color, warm, dark,' (Genesis 10:6-20). All the nations listed under Ham/Khem were the dominant nations of antiquity. These Black/Africans created, and inhabited, Egypt, Babylon, Phillistia, Sumeria, Ethiopia, Sudan, Mesopotamia created by NIMROD SON OF CUSH/KUSH (Genesis 10:6-8).

Previously, you more or less posed the question, 'Why would an alleged 'black' seek to denounce 'black' truth?' As said, the answer is no black with sense would, only a white, deceiver feigning or a really, really, really, stupid, self-loathing, subjugated, enslaved colored bowwed down at the feet of their white enslaver.

By the way, Diop also found that the Egyptians defined themselves as "Kmt" the strongest word they created that means 'Black.'

Now in light of their blackness, again, you picture Joseph being described as 'Black/Egyptian', marrying a Black/Egyptian, and having two sons by the Black/Egyptian woman. The two sons, Ephraim and Manassah by name became two tribes of Israel (Genesis 41:45-52). Joshua son of Nun, was a Ephraimite descendant meaning Kushite/Black/African (Joshua 1:1). Joshua is also called Hosea son of Nun (Numbers 13:8).

Again, Solomon's mother was a Black/African Kushite from the tribe of Sheba (Genesis 10:7). Her name was 'BathSheba' and Bathsheba means 'daughter of Sheba.' Sheba is listed as a descendant of Cush/Kush =Black/African (Genesis 10:7).

On and on, the list could go, as the Hebrews of Biblical era were Black/Nubian,Egyptian, in Black/African stock, color and appearance and they remain that way to this day as the dwell in Southern Africa, Israel, and other regions of the world. Some even dwell in the U.S. and know they are Israeli Black/African descendants while other blacks lost to their identity don't know it. During what the whites called their 'Crusades' they went to Israel and killed or enslaved the Black Israeli, Canaanite, Kushite factions and sent them to Europe and the U.S..


At any rate, here is what the Greeks, who whites herald as 'the founders of civilization' had to say about their EYE-WITNESS account of who the Black/African Egyptians. Remember the Greeks were white racists but did not have the gall of Satan to the extreme that their white caucasoid descendants the world over would take up, in that though the Greeks were prejudice bigots, in their prejudice they blatantly and as you will see, sometimes inadvertently admit the BLACK/AFRICAN EGYPTIAN TRUTH.

In fact, they say the same thing about the Black/African Hebrews who could not be told apart from any Black/AFrican on the planet. Note:In antiquity they were a particularly 'dark-black, blue black' of which they were 'vain about.' They felt superior to lighter skinned people and likened their blackness to holiness.

========================================
a) Herodotus white's hierarchies give him credit for being 'their' father of history (-480 to 425) wrote with regard to the Colchians:
=====================================
25. In the fifth century before our era, at a time when Herodotus visited Egypt, a black-skinned people, the Colchians, were still living in Colchis on the Armenian shore of the Black Sea, east of the ancient port of Trebizond, surrounded by white skin nations.

The scholars of antiquity wondered about this people's origin and Herodotus in 'Euterpe' , the second book of his history on Egypt, tries to prove that the Colchians were Egyptians, whence the arguments we quote. Herodotus, on the strength of commemorative stelae, erected by Sesotris in conquered countries, assert that this monarch has got as far as Thrace and Sethyia, where stelae would seem to have been still standing in his day (Book II, 103).

====================================
"It is in fact manifest that the Colchidians are Egyptian by race....several Egyptians told me that in their opinion the Colchidians were descended from soldiers of Sesostris. I had conjectured as much myself from two pointers, firstly becuase they have black skins and kinky hair (to tell the truth this proves nothing for other peoples have them too) and secondly and more reliably for the reason alone among mankind the Egyptians and the Ethiopians have practiced circumcision since time immemorial. The Phoenicians and Syrians of Palestine admit that they learnt the practice from the Egyptians while the Syrians in the river Thermodon and Pathenios region and their neighbours the Macrons say they learnt it recently from the Colchidians. These are the only races which practise circumcision and it is observable that they do it in the same way as the Egyptians. As between the Egyptians themselves and the Ethiopians I could not say which taught the oth er the practice for among them it is quite clearly a custom of antiquity. As to the custom having been learnt through their Egyptian connections, a further strong proof to my mind is that all Phoenicians trading to Greece cease to treat the pudenda after the Egyptian manner and do not subject their offspring to circumcision."
=====================================
26- Herodotus, Book II, 104. As with many peoples in black Africa, Egyptian women underwent excision of the clitoris: cf. Strabo, Geography, Book XVII, Ch. I.
=================================================================

Herodotus reverts several times to the negroid character of the Egyptians and each time uses it as a fact of observation to argue more or less complex theses. Thus to prove that the Greek oracle at Dodona in Epirus was of Egyptian origin, one of his aruments is the following: "...and when they add that the dove was black they give us to understand that the woman was Egypian." The doves in queston- actually there were two according to the text-symbolize two Egyptian women who are said to have been carried off from the Egyptian Thebes to found the oracles in Greece at Dodona and in Libya (Oasis of Jupiter Amon) respectively. Herodotus did not share the opinion of Anaxagoras that the melting of the snow on the mountains of Ethiopia was the source of the Nile floods. He relied on the fact that it neither rains nor snows in Ethiopia 'and the heat there turns men black'.

=====================================
27- Herodotus, Book II, 57.
28- Seneca, Questions of Nature. IV, 17/
29- Herodotus, Book II, 22.
=====================================

b) Aristotle, -389 to -332, scientist philosopher and tutor of Alexander the Great.

In one of his minor works, Aristotle attempts, with unexpected naivete', to establish a correlation between the physical and moral natures of living beings and leaves us evidence on the Egyptian-Ethiopian race which confirms what Herodotus says. According to him, 'Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two.'
=====================================

30-Aristotle, Physiognomy 6
=====================================

c) Lucian Greek writer, +125 (?) to +190.
The evidence of Lucian is as explicit as that of the two previous writers. He introduces two Greeks, Lycinius and Timolaus, who start a conversation.
=====================================
31-Lucian, Navigations, paras 2-3
=====================================

Lycinus (describing a young Egyptian): 'This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin. . .his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not freeborn.'
Timolaus: 'But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus. All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place.'

d) Appollodorus, first century before our era, Greek philospher. 'Aegyptos conquered the country of the black-footed ones and
called it Egypt after himself.'
=======================================
32-Appollodorus, Book II, 'The Family of Imachus' paras 3 and 4.
=====================================

e) Aeschylus, - 525 (?) to - 456, tragic poet and creator of Greek tragedy. In the Suppliants, Danoas, fleeing with his daughters, the Danaids, and pursued by his brother Aegyptos with his sons, the Aegyptiads, who seek to wed their cousins by force, climbs a hillock, looks out to sea and describes the Aegyptiads at the oars afar off in these terms: "I can see the crew with their black limbs and white tunics."

A similar description of the Egyptian type of man recurs a few lines later in verse 745.
====================================
33-Aeschylus, The Suppliants, vv. 719-20. See also v. 745.
===============================================================

f) Achilles Tatius of Alexandria. He compares the herdsmen of the Delta to the Ethiopians and explains that they are blackish, like half-castes.
====================================

g) Strabo, -58 to about +25.

Strabo visited Egypt and almost all the countries of the Roman empire. He concurs in the theory that the Egyptians and the Colchoi are of the same race but holds that the migrations to Ethiopia and Colchoi had been from Egypt only.

"Egyptians settled in Ethiopia and in Colchoi. There is no doubt whatever as to Strabo's notion of the Egyptians' race for he seeks elsewhere to explain why the Egyptians are darker than the Hindus, a circumstance which would permit the refutation, if needed, of any attempt at confusing 'the Hindu and Egyptian races'.
=====================================
34-Strabo, Geography, Book I, ch. 3, para 10.
=====================================

h) Diodorus of Silicy, about -63 to +14, Greek historian and contemporary of Caesar Augustus.

According to Diodorus it was probably Ethiopia which colonized Egypt (in the Athenian sense of the term, signifying that, with overpopulation, a proportion of the people emigrate to new territory).

=====================================
36-"Diodorus, University History, Book III. The antiquity of the Ethiopian civilization is attested by the most ancient and most venerable Greek writer, Homer in both the Iliad and the Odyssey: "Jupiter followed today by all the gods receives the sacrifices of the Ethiopians (Illiad, I, 422).
'Yesterday to visit holy Ethiopia Jupiter betook himself to the ocean shore'" (Iliad, I, 423).
====================================

The Ethiopians say that the Egyptians are one of their colonies, which was led into Egypt by Osiris. They claim that at the beginning of the world Egypt was simply a sea but that the Nile, carrying down vast quantities of loam from Ethiopia in its flood waters, finally filled it in and made it part of the continent. . .They added that the Egyptians have received from them, as from authors and their ancestors, the great part of their laws.'
======================================

i) Doigenes Laertius.
He wrote the following about Zeno, founder of the Stoic School (-333 to -261): 'Zeno son of Mnaseas or Demeas was a native of Citium in Cyprus, A Greek city which has taken in some Phoenician colonists.' In his Lives, Timotheus of Athens describes Zeno as having a twisted neck. Apollonius of Tyre says of him that he was gaunt, very tall and black, hence the fact that, according to Chrysippus in the First Book of his Proverbs certain people called him an Egyptian vine-shoot.
=====================================

37-Diogenes Laertius, Book VII, i.
======================================

j) Ammianus Marcellinus, about +33 to +100, Latin historian and friend of the Emperor Julian.

With him we reach the sunset of the Roman Empire and the end of classical antiquity. There are about nine centuries between the birth of Aeschylus and Herodotus and the dath of Ammianus Marcellinus, nine centuries during which the Egyptians, amid a sea of white races, steadily crossbred. It can be said without exaggeration that in Egypt one household in ten included a white Asiatic or Indo-European slave.
====================================
38-The Egyptian notables liked to have a Syrians or Cretan female slave in their harems.
================================================================

It is remarkable that, despite its intensity, all this crossbreeding should not ahve succeeded in upsetting the racial constants. Indeed Ammianus Marcellinus writes: ". . . the men of Egypt are mostly brown or black with a skinny and dessicated look".
===================================
39-Ammianus Maarcellinus, Book XXII, para 16 (23).

He also confirms the evidence already cited about the Colchoi: "Beyond these lands are the heartlands of the Camaritae and the Phasis with its swifter stream borders the country of the Colchoi, an ancient race of Egyptian origin.'
=====================================
40-Pirate gangs who worked from small ships called Camare.
41-Ammianus Marcellinus, Book XXII, para. 8 (24).
=====================================

This cursory review of the evidence of the ancient Graeco-Latin writers on the Egyptians' race shows that the extent of agreement between them is impressive and is an objective fact difficult to minimize or conceal, the two alternatives between which present-day Egyptology constantly oscillates.

An exception is the evidence of an honest savant, Voney, who travelled in Egypt between +1783 and +1785, i.e. at the peak period of negro slavery, and made the following observation on the true Egyptian race, the same which produced the Pharaohs, namely, the Copts:

"All of them are puffy-faced, heavy-eyed and thick-lipped, in a word, real mulatto faces. I was tempted to attribute this to the climate until, on visiting the Sphinx, the look ofit gave me the clue to the enigma. Beholding that head characteristically Negro in all its features, I recalled the well-known passage of Herodotus which reads: 'For my part I consider the Colchoi are a colny of the Egyptians because, like them, they are black-skinned and kinky-haired'. In other words the ancient Egyptians were true Negroes of the same stock as all autochtonous peoples of Africa and from that datum one sees how their race, after some centuries of mixing with the blood of Romans and Greeks, must have lost the full blackness of its original colour but retained the impress of its original mould. It is even possible t apply this observation very widely and posit in principle that physiognomy is a kind of record usuable in many cases for disputing or elucida ting the evidence of history on the origins of the peoples. . .

After illustrating this proposition citing the case of the Normans, who 900 years after the conquest of Normandy still look like Danes, Volney adds:

"but reverting to Egypt, its contributions to history afford many subjects for philosphic reflection . What a subject for mediation is the present-day barbarity and ignorance of the Copts who were considered born of the alliance of the deep genius of the Egyptians and the brilliance of the Greeks, that this race of blacks who nowadays are slaves and the objects of our scorn is the very one to which we owe our arts, our sciences and even the use of spoken word and finally recollect that it is in the midst of the peoples claiming to be the greatest friends of liberty and humanity that the most barbarous of enslavements has been sanctioned and the question raised whether black men have brains of the same quality as those of white men!
======================================
42-M.C.F. Volney, Voyages en Syrie et en Egypte. Paris, 1787, Vol. I, pp. 74-7
================================================================

To this testimony of Volney, Champollion-Figeac, brother of Champollion the Younger, was to reply in the following terms: 'The two physical traits of black skin and kinky hair are not enough to stamp a race as negro and Volney's conclusion as to the negro origin of th eancient population of Egypt is glaringly forced and inadmissible.'
====================================
43-J.J. Champollion-Figeac, 1839, pp. 26-7
==============================================================

Being black from head to foot and having kinky hair is not enough to make a man a negor! This shows us the kind of specious argumentation to which Egyptology has had to resort since its birth as a science. Some scholars maintain that Volney was seeking to shift the discussion to a philosophic plane. But we have only to re-read Volney: he is simply drawing the inferences from crude material facts forcing themselves on his eyes and his conscience as proofs.

===============================================================

Oh, and just so we can get a PEEK SEE at the TRUTH click on the following links to see the CLEARLY DEFINED BLACK/AFRICAN EGYPTIAN IMAGES....Enjoy and tootaloo now.

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix1.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix2.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix3.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix4.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix5.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix6.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix7.htm

http://www.freemaninstitute.com/Gallery/RTGpix8.htm
This thread really belongs on the "Religion" board.

However, since it's here:

Prophetess, you say that Joseph was black. Find the verse that says so. You can't, because there isn't one.

Find where any patriarch's color is described. You can't, because they aren't.

The line of the patriarchs is quite clearly Mesopotamian, not African. Moses was a son of Abraham, who was Mesopotamian, and Keturah was a daughter of Midian, also in Abraham's line, and therfore Mesopotamian.

And, once more, "Ham" does not mean "black." It means "hot." Check your Brown-Driver-Briggs. You can't miss it--it's that huge blue book full of Hebrew.

You speak, not from fact and truth but from a hateful NOI point of view that cares nothing for those who are different from you.

You quote the Bible sometimes, but I have noticed that you do not quote, "Love your enemy." You do not quote "Consider one another as more important than yourselves."

Why? Because they contradict your emotions, nad you are just about all emotions. If you really listened to the Bible, you'd have to change, and you are convinced that you do not need to.

Wrong again.

As I said on that other thread, Dr. Diop is worhty of respect, but he is not always right. He started with a direction that he wanted to pursue, a direction that was a reaction. He found some information that he found amenable to his position and emphasized that while ignoring other information.

He also worked before genetics was able to give us some very important information about the people who actually built the pyramids. It turns out that they are the direct ancestors of the Egyptians who live in Egypt today, and they are genetically most like the west Asians of the Middle East--Arabs and Mesopotamians and Persians--and not the Africans to the south.

He worked before micorgrahpic analysis of hair on mummies showed that many or most that could be analyzed had hair that was straight or wavy.

So Dr. Diop, for all his abilities--and they were many--was, sadly, just wrong. He would not be the first bight man to be wrong about something he desperately wanted to be right. In fact, there's quite a line of people who were wrong just because they wanted so badly to be right about a desired end.

We must be careful of the things we wish to be right. Often they are not. Stick to facts. You're not doing that very well. You never have.
Man I have made a career out of teaching white folks about Egypt on the net. Just when I think it's over they PULL ME BACK IN!!!!!! K first people a lot smater than you have tried to dismiss doctor diops findings to no avail sooooo give it up. Next in regards to you statements about dna tests whish group of Egyptians did they test? Those in the north(lower Egypt) or those in the south (upper Egypt) the people in the north are the direct descendent of egypts conquerors while those in the south are less mixed therefore have a more africoid appearance. I also read about a dna study of Egypt in it Egyptians and Nubians and Ethiopians and somalians clustered closer to groups outside of Africa But even eurocentrists will admit that Nubians are black. I sat on the bus yesterday next to an Ethiopian immigrant with nearly straight hair yet I would think to most people he would classify as a black person. Also ham or kam means black not hot, kam or kem meant black in ancient Egyptian, they named their land kemet(whether this means the black land or land of the blacks is up for debate) but kem meaning black is not. Peoples names would often end with kem. Did this mean they were hot all the time? Maybe they were hot headed. K whatevah, anyway have you ever heard of the lost pharaohs of nubia? Do a google search, you'll find that the pharonic sytem was used in nubia at least 200 yrs before the first known egytian ruler, jus in case you don't trust us black folks you'll be happy to know that most of the research was done by whites. Throughout egypts histry the greatest dynasties all originated in the south (upper Egypt) when they were invaded they would retreat to the south. Do a search for the statue of narmer menes and tell me what that is looking at you? Also check out this link

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/tutankhamun/

also check this one

http://www.fulcrumtv.com/blackmummy.htm

that's it for now I look forward to your response, melesi I do so love teaching.
kem,

There are many people "smarter" than I am. I have never stated that I am smarter than anyone. What I do is to find the facts, and I take the time to do it right. That's my goal, anyway.

Ok, let's say that you are right. Does the evidence support what you say?

Well, Diop is still slanted and biased in his research. You did not address that. I pointed out in what he wrote--on another thread, to be sure, but still it was on this issue--that he said that DNA evidence "did not matter."

No scientist would say that science does not matter, especially when he is going to try to use science to prove his point. Ergo, Dr. Diop was not a good scientist.

You're not reading the history. The contemporary Egyptians are not the descendants of invaders or conquerers. Their line dates back over 6000 years to the building of the pyramids. It actually goes back further, to the end of the Ice Age, when Lower Egypt and Upper Egypt were divided by the uninhabitable valley of the "wild Nile" and the desert. Those who came in during that time--about 10,000 years ago--came from the north and the east.

The gnetics of all of Egypt, north and south, shows this. There was surprisingly little mixing between Upper and Lower Egypt. Egyptians of 6000 yearts ago are much closer to Arabs than they are to Nubians.

Cham (ham) means hot. Look it up in your Brown-Driver-Briggs. I assume that you read Hebrew, since you are teaching about it?

As far as the Pharaohs of Nubia, I have already stated taht there were five Nubian Pharaohs. There were plenty of battles between those two kingdoms, and sometimes Nubia won. But only five pharaohs out of how many dynasties is not a very big number.

All the genetic studies have shown that the ancient Egyptians of Lower Egypt and the builders of the pyramids were west Asians, not southern Africans.
LOL

you have got to be kidding me with this crap.

"the lower and upper part of Egypt was not inhibitable by Southern Africans, but was Asian"...and so on and so on"

LOL

Look I hope Kem or any other black person on here is not listen to this white girl. She get's her info from some racist white scientist, authors, anthropolgist, historians etc.

And also say that cham (kam) means hot. BwA hahahah lol Roll Eyes

Say what you want honey. I know this is just your way of trying to mess with our heads it want work. You can continue to spew allll the bullsh*t you want. Non believer. bs
Ok let's begin shall we?

First the hieroglyphic for km was a blackened piece of wood or bread,Those eurocentric historians who support the idea that kemet meant the black land (for it's fertility) do so by making a distinction between the black(not hot) fertile soil, of lower Egypt and the red dry sand of upper Egypt. What ever distinction the Hebrews gave the name matters little when one considers what the kemites themselves used it for.

Next, I want you to send me the link or tell where I can purchase the book of this genetic study you are basing your arguments on. I have read about a couple of genetic studies on the races of Africa. In one Egyptians, Nubians, Ethiopians, and Somalians were grouped with populations outside of Africa, but even the staunchest eurocentric will admit that Nubians are black. In the other . We have blood typing on certain individuals, Mtdna anylsis and Y-Chromstome shows Egypt is diverse based on the region. lots of Egyptians in the Delta region (lower Egypt) have a Arab Halpotype and lots of people in Southern Egypt(upper Egypt) have a Sub-Saharan halpotype. Modern Egyptians have an African marker called Yap ++ that runs about 50% in some regions of Egypt. Also samples of various Upper Egyptians shows the Sub-Saharan marker was up to %24 percent.

By the way did you know that 80% of african Americans can trace their ancestry to Europe, So say for instance if I wanted to prove that I was white (which I'm not) I have the genetics to do so.
Think ....a.....bout........it.

During the Middle Ages up to the Ottoman period the Egyptian population was only 3 million. Know the population is over 80 Million. Increased birth rates in Lower Egypt have dwarfed the ones in Upper Egypt. Also during the Middle Ages an influx of Turks,Aremeans,Kurds,and Mamelukes came into Egypt.

Much of the elite in Egypt today are Turkish.


5 black pharoahs my dear? You misunderstand, when I said do a search I was not talking about the 25th dynasty, I was talking about the dynasties BEFORE narmer menes, creater of the first acknowledged ( by white Egyptologists) dynasty. 200yrs BEFORE. Again do a search for the Lost Pharoahs of Nubia. Type in the Qustul incense burner.

But let's forget about genetics for a minute shall we. Even though genetics is an exact science (to the best of my knowledge) the practioners of this science may be biased, or they may be selective in the choosing of what groups to study and compare. There are other less subjective ways to tell the race of the Egyptians.

First where did the Egyptians themselves say the came from?
They themselves claim they came from "the mountains of the moon" which is thought to be somewhere near present day Uganda.

What about similarities with other black cultures?
1. divine kingship (found nowhere else)
2. Cicumcision ands excision (found nowhere else)
3. Totemism(found nowhere else)
4. Ancestor worship
5. Matriarchy(found nowhere else)
6. Mummification, embalming that is(found nowhere else) here's a link for this one http://www.fulcrumtv.com/blackmummy.htm


Language:
Studies have shown that Wolof and Yoruba as as close to the ancient Egyptian language as Coptic is.
http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/egypt_lang.html

Eyewitnesses that saw and recorded what they saw.
"They (the Ethiopians) say also that the Egyptians are colonists sent out by the Ethiopians, Osiris having been the leader of the colony . . . they add that the Egyptians have received from them, as from authors and their ancestors, the greater part of their laws."
(1st century B.C., Diodorus Siculus of Sicily, Greek historian and contemporary of Caesar Augustus, Universal History Book III. 2. 4-3. 3)

"Those who are too black are cowards, like for instance, the Egyptians and Ethiopians. But those who are excessively white are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two."
(Aristotle (384-322 B.C.), Greek philosopher, scientist, and tutor to Alexander the Great, Physiognomy, 6)

"Why are the Ethiopians and Egyptians bandy-legged? Is it because of that the body of itself creates, because of disturbance by heat, like loss of wood when they become dry? The condition of their hair supports this theory; for
it is curlier than that of other nations . . ."
(Aristotle, Problemata 909, 7)

The evidence of Lucian (Greek writer, 125 B.C.) is as explicit as that of the previous writers. He introduces two Greeks, Lycinus and Timolaus, who start a conversation.

Lycinus (describing a young Egyptian): "This boy is not merely black; he has thick lips and his legs are too thin . . .
his hair worn in a plait behind shows that he is not a freeman."

Timolaus: "But that is a sign of really distinguished birth in Egypt, Lycinus, All freeborn children plait their hair until they reach manhood. It is the exact opposite of the custom of our ancestors who thought it seemly for old men to secure their hair with a gold brooch to keep it in place."
(Lucian, Navigations, paras 2-3)

What about skeletal remains:
The african traits found in predynastic and dynastic skeletons are as follows:
Prognothism
A high brachial or femoral index, indicating a greater relative length of the forearm/femur to the total arm/leg which are characteristics of tropical populations
Wide nasal apertures
(it must be noted that all Africans do not have these physical markers but they are a distinct african trait)

How about computer reconstuction of faces?

Here is the one of nefertiti
http://www.usatoday.com/news/science/2003-08-12-nefertiti-usat_x.htm

And here is King Tut

http://www.sciencemuseum.org.uk/antenna/tutankhamun/111.asp

(note that these were done by Europeans not afrocentrists)

What about biblical evidance?
Egypt and Ethiopia are said to descend from ham son of noah.
Egypt and Ethiopia Are often mentioned together in the bible, and sometimes it seems as if one is interchangeable with the other.

So what we have is a people on the continent of Africa, who practice an african religion, and african customs, who learned their political system from Africans (again type in qustul incense burner), who were grouped with other Africans in the bible and by historians, whose skeletons show african traits, whose facial reconstructions show african features yet they weren't black.

If you are a Christian, and you value the truth then you must realize that to hold on to this belief that you have is rascist and goes against the teachings of your lord and savior I ask you to prey about this subject before you post anything that you learned from people with obvious bias.(not saying that afrocentrists can't be just as biased). And if you still hold on to these erroneous beliefs after preying then I ask not to post in this forum again as your rascist beliefs may be read by our young brothers and sisters trying to find out the truth about themselves and you may pass your poisen on to them.
Kem you must know that Mr. or Ms. Melesi is "white", although this person lies about it and always dodge the question when asked. Many posters here, myself including, gave up discussion with Melesi. This poster is a self-proclaimed black intellectual whose blatant agenda is to spread religious bigotry and racist hypothesis in this Black message. So you better be warned, although you noticed Big Grin

In any case, I appreciate your posts!

AfroMan.

[This message was edited by Afroman on February 07, 2004 at 08:58 PM.]
Lotusflower,

You have said nothing except that you don't like what I have said. Not very interesting, and not at all helpful or convincing. You might try proving your point.

Afroman,
At least you are allowing that you and prophetess may have been wrong about me. That's a good start.

Kem,

You are not always paying attention.
Notice that I did not say anything about the heiroglyph. I said that the Hebrew name "Ham," means "hot."

As for the genetic studies, I have said before where they can be found and even put them on this website. Here are some of them again, however:

The genetic studies are contained in such places as the book, "The History and Geography of Human Genes,"

on this website:
http://citebase.eprints.org/cgi-bin/citations?id=oai:biomedcentral.com:1471-2156-4-15

on this one, a couple of findings:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12495083&dopt=Abstract

This one:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/54939/ABSTRACT

tells us that european "conquerers" are not the reason North Africans are as they are today.

I'm having trouble finding this one on the web, so I'll just enter it here. Sorry about the inconvenience:

Population history of north Africa: evidence from classical genetic markers.

Bosch E, Calafell F, Perez-Lezaun A, Comas D, Mateu E, Bertranpetit J.

Laboratori d'Antropologia, Facultat de Biologia, Universitat de Barcelona, Catalonia, Spain.

After an intensive bibliographic search, we compiled all the available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations and synthesized the data in an attempt to reconstruct the populations' demographic history using two complementary methods: (1) principal components analysis and (2) genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. In both analyses the main feature of the genetic landscape in northern Africa is an east-west pattern of variation pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Moreover, Libya and Egypt show the smallest genetic distances with the European populations, including the Iberian Peninsula. The most plausible interpretation of these results is that, although demic diffusion during the Neolithic could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe by a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, a Mesolithic (or older) differentiation of the populations in the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand the genetic picture. The most isolated groups (Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers) were the most differentiated and, although no clear structure can be discerned among the different Arab- and Berber-speaking groups, Arab speakers as a whole are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. By contrast, the genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.

PIP: An extensive bibliographic search was conducted to compile all available data on allele frequencies for classical genetic polymorphisms referring to North African populations. The data were then synthesized to reconstruct the population's demographic history using principal components analysis and genetic distances represented by neighbor-joining trees. Both analyses identified an east-west pattern of genetic variation in northern Africa pointing to the differentiation between the Berber and Arab population groups of the northwest and the populations of Libya and Egypt. Libya and Egypt are also the smallest genetic distances away from European populations. Demic diffusion during the Neolithic period could explain the genetic similarity between northeast Africa and Europe through a parallel process of gene flow from the Near East, but a Mesolithic or older differentiation of the populations into the northwestern regions with later limited gene flow is needed to understand this genetic picture. Mauritanians, Tuaregs, and south Algerian Berbers, the most isolated groups, were the most differentiated, while Arab speakers overall are closer to Egyptians and Libyans. The genetic contribution of sub-Saharan Africa appears to be small.

PMID: 9164042 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Studies oaf Y-Chromosome haplotypes show that they are closely connected with languages, and that genetically and linguisitcally Egyptians are more closely related to Asians than to Africans:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v61n5/970152/970152.html


I quoted that Frontline report that said in plain language--it's still on their website, by the way, at the "Secrets of the Pharaohs" site--that modern Egyptians are the direct descendants of the pyramid builders.

The ancient Egyptians didn't have myths about their origins in any other place, by the way, so that's not going to be any help.

You wouldn't "have the genetics to" prove that you are white, for even though we carry european markers (imagine my disappointment in hearing Lingala-speaking Congolese call African-Americans "mabele," or "white man") we also have other genes and genetic markers that Europeans do not have. Genetics is a bit more sophisicated and comprehensive than that.

Similarities with black cultures should not be surprising. Interaction with other cultures is a matter of course. African governments today have American music and European-style governments in them, but they're not European. As for the influence of Nubia on Egypt, sure. In fact, they influenced each other:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2003/02/0227_030227_sudankings.html

Narmer may have been the king who became the first pharaoh, but that is not certain:

http://www.ancient-egypt.org/kings/0101_narmer/palette.html

He was important to both Lower and Upper Egypt, and could very well have been the one who unified or at least started the unification of the two.

The problem of the genetics still exits.

I'm a little disappointed in the determination that some of us have to find our identity in these people. Nubia was a wondrous kingdom and important in its own right, and no one disputes the color of the ancient Nubians. So why aren't people satisfied with that? Is it because Dr. Diop led the way and we feel that we must follow? What if he's wrong?

But whether we came from a black Egypt or a black Nubia, our problems still remain, and there's no pride in being from either one at the remove of six to nine thousand years.

Ah, well.

As for the rest, correlation is not causation, and the fact that other cultures had the same ideas of things that the ancient Egyptians did--and the ancient Nubians, too, which prompts the wonder of who influenced whom here--is intyeresting, but it does not forward the knowledge of what color the ancient Egyptians were.
Hey there Melesi I see you still want a taste huh? Ok let's begin:

First you keep repeating that frontline article at me" the Egyptians of today yada yada yada" do you mean eyptians like these:

http://www.geocities.com/vandeelen/Afrocentric/modern.htm

or maybe Egyptians like these:

http://www.kirikou.com/egipto/familia/familia.htm

They are right.... these people are the descendants of the people who built the pyramids.
The Egyptians you see on the discovery channel doing the reenactments and the Egyptians that run the country are not.

From what I was able to glean from the links you provided, all they said basically was that present day North Africans share some genetics with groups outside of Africa, which by itself means little, the Egyptians themselves often commented on the asiatics and sheep herders that were migrating into Africa, and they were invaded by Persians , arabs, turks and aremenians You don't think these people changed the genetic composition of the indigenous Egyptians? and like I said before so do the Nubians, Somalians, Ethiopians, and from what I just learned from one of the studies you sent, the Lemba of the Congo.(and I've seen pictures of them they are black as night)All of these groups genetically group closer to other populations than they do to populations in Africa. Meaning if 1000 years from now someone dug up the body of a Lemba and did a Dna analysis, and they used his dna to say what race of man he was.... they would conclude that he was Asiatic.


The things I shared were more than similarities with other black cultures they are things that ONLY other black cultures have in common not ONE of the similarities I mentioned is shared by an Asiatic peoples,or ANY other people anywhere. In fact the Ancient Egyptians had NO Asiatic customs or culture.

Linguistically they are comparing the language spoken by the Egyptians of today. None of the studies I read mention anything about the ancient Egyptian language. As I said before. A study has proven that it was an indigenous african language, refer to the link in my previous post, and see for yourself.

African governments and countries have European elements because of colonization (except for music of course) or aren't you aware of that?

And the Qustul Incense burner proves that Narmer was NOT the first pharaoh, The First Pharoahs were Nubian. (he did however unify Egypt) By the way have you ever seen his statue? Here take a look at it and tell me what you think:

http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Classroom/9912/egypthistory.html


You also ignored my posts about the facial reconstructions, bone, biblical and historical evidence Why?

Do you think Herodotus , Aristotle, and the rest lied about what they saw? For what reason?

I'm more than a little disappointed in you Melesi apparantly you didn't do as I suggested and pray on this issue. If you are a black person then your mind is enslaved, and the bonds tighten on your brain each time you deny the truth. If you are white then you are stuck in the pit of a racial superiority complex, that does not jibe well with your professing to be a Christian.
As for correlation being causation, maybe not. But what other evidence are we to use to prove our point? If we use genetics only are we not to factor in the the racial bias that scientists have used to degrade african people for centuries? Are we to just trust that all of a sudden these scholars will be completely fair and objective. The same people who once classifed the Zulus as hamites and not true Negroes because they put up such a fight. The same people who until diop denied that there was any african connection to Egypt besides slavery. And by the way what correlation can you give for an asian origin of the Egyptians... genetics? I think they do a wonderful job themselves of proving that people can be classified as another race on the outside but genetically be something totally different. So that's moot. Then what.... Language? If so which one? The language of ancient Egypt or the language they adopted (Arabic) as they were invaded. That's moot. So what are we left with? I'll tell you if you forgot.

RELIGION
BONE STRUCTURE
CUSTOMS
CULTURE
EYEWITNESES REPORTS
BIBLICAL EVIDENCE
COMPUTORIZED FACIAL RECONSTRUCTIONS
WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THEMSELVES

To simply ignore this evidence is idiotic, especially when there is no other evidence to challenge it.

Are you an idiot Melesi?
List of Correspondences between Egypt and other African Cultures

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This list of cultural correspondence between African and Egyptian culture is preliminary and due for expansion. Much of the material is taken from J.O. Lucas' Religions in West Africa and Ancient Egypt, 1970, Nigerian National Press.

Contributions to this list are encouraged.

1. Similarity of Nigerian bronze work related to the Oni (Ife ruler) with that found in ancient Egypt.

2. Similarity of the root word for the Supreme God, or another deity or idol, in many West African countries (e.g., Orisa, Orise, Olisa, Lisa, Leza, Arusi, Aruosa, Alusi, etc.) with the Egyptian god, Horu-sa-ast.

3. A Supreme God is recognized but local deities and ancestors are worshipped.

4. Egyptian gods have survived in name and/or attribute in West Africa. These include Osiris, Ra, AMen, Ptah, Min and Horus.

5. Similar concepts on divine kingship.

6. Ideas relating to life after death. Practice of making provision for this life, and of the concepts of Ka and Khu.

7. Ideas related tot he pig and other sacred animals, festivals, dancing, singing and efficacy of offerings. The survival of the Mock King of ancient Egypt.

8. Similar ideas concerning magic and magical practices. Related types of amulets are found. The amulet of the head-rest in ancient Egypt survives in the Sika Gua "Golden Stool," of the Ashantis and other emblems of the West. Khnum, the potter god of Egypt survives as Khnum "Creator God, a Potter," in West Africa.

Headrest from tomb of Tutankhamom
(http://www.tulane.edu/lester/images/Ancient.World/Egypt/A86.gif)


9. The following religious practices show resemblances: 1) places of worship 2)services in groves and shrines 3)lustrations 4) use of music 5) training for prieshood 6) priest and their functions 7) dedicated objects and 8) oracles. Specifically noteworthy are the performance of mystery plays similar to those at Abydos, the wearing of the leopard's skin by the Chief Priest, and the "templum" idea.

10. Circumcision, including female circumcision.

11. Excision.

12. Piercing of ears and nose and tatooing.

13. Shaving as a restriction of the priest.

14. The funeral practice of dismembering and unfleshing the body.

15. The practice of skull or heart removal of the corpse and wrapping the body in cloth as in the Egyptian practice of mummification.

16. The survival of metal, stone, glaze and glass, and pottery work resembling that of dynastic Egypt.

17. The four-day, eight-day and sixteen-day weeks are based on Egyptian ideas. The seven day week is a survival of the udjat of the full moon, or division of the fortnight into two periods.

18. The recognition of the helical rising of Sirius among the Dogon.

19. Similar numeration systems and names of numbers.

20. Practices of salutation, respect for elders, oaths, moderation and moral maxims.

21. The role of names as "constituting an integral part of the human economy, is the same in West Africa as it was in Ancient Egypt."

22. Survival of names of deities, animals, places, etc., as in Danga, the name of dwarfs in ancient Egypt, among the Yoruba, e.g. lo bi danga "go as quickly as a Danga dwarf."

23. The use of sacred numbers including 2, 4, 7, 9, 27, 42, 75, 77, 110, etc. For example, the 42 day Adae ceremomy of the Ashanti, and the 27 divinites of the Woyo cosmic order.

24. The practice of going naked, especially among children in both pre-dynastic and dynastic times.

25. Going barefoot rather than wearing sandals.

26. The use of emblems and hieroglyphic symbols with meanings similar to those found in Egypt. See Religions in West Africa and Ancient Egypt for an extensive study of these emblems.

27. The Egyptian motto, "Life, health, well-being," (ankh, uza, seneb) is the core of the Egyptian philosophical outlook. In one of the most astounding correspondences, the widespread West African motto, "Life, health, strength," is as important local thinking as it was in Egypt.

28. Use of similar types of combs.

29. Use of "Nubian" wigs in both regions. Use of similar braided wigs.

30. Greeting each other by making a low bow and droping one hand to the knee. Young men stepping aside to make room for seniors. (Gloria Emeagwali)

31. Women pass water standing up, men sitting down. (Gloria Emeagwali)

32. Similar types of leather shoe design. (Gloria Emeagwali)

33. From Budge's Osiris, and the Egyptian resurrection (Gloria Emeagwali):

1. marriage p.212
2. respect for the aged, p.216
3. circumcision, p.219
4. snake worship,p.236
5. the crocodile, p.238
6. names,p.242
7. figures and counting, p.246
8. the head-rest,p252
9. the underworld,p.253
10. red body colouring, p.257


34. Small harp of the Azande and peoples of southern Sudan and Uganda. (Shinnie)

35. Ostrich feather fans like those at Wadia, Bagirmi and near Lake Chad. (Shinnie)

36. Royal paraphenalia similar to that used by the pharaohs including whips, crooks and flails. (Shinnie)

37. The god Shango of the Yoruba, whose sacred animal is the ram and who resembles the god, Amun.(Shinnie)

38. A ram-headed breastplate from Lagos. (Shinnie)

39. Ivory arm-clamps found among the Masai. (Shinnie)

40. From Diriye Mohame Abdullahi:


Ancient Egyptian Somali
------------------------------
Ba essence of life Essence of life, energy
Ka essence of life Essence of life, radiation
Bes God-cat Bisad - cat
Aya Moon-deity Daya - Moon (the worship aspect has been
forgotten)
Rah Qor-Rah (The neck of the Sun, the Sun)
Arshin Barshin (head-rest)
Wad Wadad (priest) (Lest I forgot, our
Wadads are the keepers of science and
knowedge, parted only to those who
their apprenticeship - this is a common
feature across Africa)


41. Caste system of warriors, blacksmiths, hunters and priests. (Diriye Mohame Abdullahi)

42. Sprinkling of water on graves and mourners.(Diriye Mohame Abdullahi)

43. Spraying of libation or blood of sacrifice on new houses. (Diriye Mohame Abdullahi)

44. Ram as symbol of divinity. (Diriye Mohame Abdullahi)

45. Ritualistic killing of monarchs, and the ceremony of the regeneration of the king (Egyptian, sed). (Diop)

46. Divine royal blood was passed through Egyptian queens; West African matriarchal tradition. Aside from usurption, any claimant to the throne had to have an Egyptian mother of royal blood.(Diop)
Melesi....I don't have to prove anything to you. Just who the hell do you think you are coming on a black site denouncing black history? Girrrl please....you're not worth my time.

Besides Kem is doing more then enough. Whether you believe it or not....I REALLY could care less. Roll Eyes Continue spreading the word Kem. upfro
lotusflower,

I'm not asking you to "prove" anything.

1. Why shouldn't I be on a black website?

2. I am not denouncing black history. I am against false history of any kind. As I said, I think this exaltation of Egypt as a black nation is misguided for two reasons:

A. Ancient Egypt appears to have been Mediterranean, not African.

B. This concentration on Egypt is done promarily because of the influence of Dr. Diop who was himself misguided, for his science was lacking and he completely ignored Nubia. In his eyes, it is Egypt or nothing. That is not so. There is much in Africa that is praiseworthy. For my money, if we must find our pride in the ancient world Nubia is what we should be concentrating on. It was undeniably Black African and just as remarkable and impressive as Egypt was.
I've always been amused with people like melASSi who are hell bent on spewing their propaganda on Black oriented websites. Their sole purpose is to be antagonistic and disruptive. No other reason. They feel threatened. They are cowards. Such people lack the social skills and intellect to spew their nonsense in a normal social environment so they feel compelled to hide behind a computer screen. Their old racist ideologies can no longer be upheld. This is the only power they have. LOL!

We all have delt with people like melASSi who invade Black websites. They claim their presence is to refute "false history" and "racism." We all know this is a cop-out and a lame excuse. They're not here for constructive dialogue but to counter-act. I'm starting to believe many of these non-Blacks on Black sites are being paid to be here.

If these people are truly concerned about false history and racism then they need to direct their wasted energy to a kkk or white supremacist website.

In regard to the original subject, scholars routinely viewed Kemet as a "Negroid" civilization before egyptology was invented. People like melASSi are quick to denounce C.A. Diop yet they never present any specific SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE just topsy turvy semantics and spin technics. Any juvenile can do that.

Furthermore, many anthropologist, scholars etc., of the past and present both Black and White other that Diop has provided hard evidence to the deaf, dumb and blind that Kemet was founded and sustained by Black people. And as the days go by more evidence will continue to be discovered and re-discovered that Kemet was indeed a Black civilization.

To continue this debate with this person is baseless. This person will believe and see only what they wish. It's simply futile.

[This message was edited by KEYNOTE on February 13, 2004 at 03:49 AM.]


[This message was edited by KEYNOTE on February 13, 2004 at 03:52 AM.]
Historians have long since discovered that Africa is the cradle of civilization; therefore, it would make sense for African people to be in existence during the time this text was written. However, that does not make the text an accurate of history nor should the bible be relied upon as a history book. There as many creation stories created by Africans as there are African tribes or groups. Each tribe relies upon his own version of the creation story and they do not expect for the story to be accepted universally. In fact, the Egyptians had many creation stories in circulation among their groups in North Africa. The reason why African Americans are so interested in legitimizing their existence in the bible is because Europeans have told them (through religious and cultural colonization) that the "bible" is the only text in which human beings can trace their inception, which is inaccurate.
Yeah guys i know it's a waste of time but i honestly feel sometimes like these people may not know, and if shown they can be freed from what ever misconceptions that chain them.

Diop was not by any stretch of the imagination the first person to claim the blackness of egypt. Before him there was

Moses (he explained that mesraim and kush were brothers)
Herodotus
Aristotle
Diodorus of Sicily
Arnold Hermann Heeren
Karl Richard Lepsius'
Sir E.A. Wallis Budge
Basil Davidson
Count C. F. Volney
Charles C. Seifort
J. A. Rogers
Carter G Woodson
W.E.B. Du Bois
Drusilla Dunjee Houston
Willis N. Huggins
John Henrick Clarke


What about egypt appears to be Meditranean?
is it their RELIGION?
is it their BONE STRUCTURE?
is it their CUSTOMS?
is it their CULTURE?
is it the EYEWITNESES REPORTS?
is it the BIBLICAL EVIDENCE?
is it their COMPUTORIZED FACIAL RECONSTRUCTIONS?
is it their ancient Language?
is it WHAT THEY SAID ABOUT THEMSELVES?

Point out a medditranean civilization with similar customs and practices.
keynote,

You've not been paying attention, then. I have quoted Dr. Diop. I have referenced science. What I say is not "racism." If you can prove what I say to be wrong, then please do so. Neo-kem addresses the issue most seriously--for which I thank him--and when I have more time I'd like to speak to more of the facts he adduces. Right now there is a family issue I must help deal with and my time is more limited for this kind of thing than it was before.

But what you have said is not convincing to any but the convinced. You presume to assign motives just as Prophetess assigned race and gender and Afroman followed her lead. Neither knew what they were talking about. I hope you do not continue to do as they did.

I am not interested in white supremacist websites, for the lunacy they espouse isn't worth an animal's mind, let along a human's.

But I have noticed that the very same methods and thinking can be found here. That should not be considered to our pride.

Deal with the genetics and I will be more apt to believe you. I know that I can be wrong, but there is these persistent facts that must be faced, and so far they say that Egypt was Mediterranean, not black African.

But why have we not given as much time to Nubia as we have to Egypt? Egypt we talk about all the time. Nubia hardly ever. Why?
"This concentration on Egypt is done promarily because of the influence of Dr. Diop who was himself misguided, for his science was lacking and he completely ignored Nubia."-Melesi

First, you will need to keep things in perspective. Egypt was carefully examined by Diop, as well as others, because during that time is when whites were aggressively trying to exorcise North African Egypt out of Africa. During this time is also when racial tensions between whites and blacks were at its worst. You cannot simply make claims against someone without acknowledging the context and time in which the research took place. We must at least question why is it that whites seek to "whiten" only this part of Africa and not the others. Africa is a huge continent. If the Egyptians were white or "Mediterranean" why would they reside and stay there in that part of Africa (a part of Africa that can reach up to 300 degrees, so hot that the Egyptians themselves had to come up with ways to protect their brown skin from the sun), and not spread out to other parts of Africa?

Second, Cheikh Diop as well as countless other authorities (both black and white historians) on Egyptology, including Wallis Budge, emphasized the significant role Ethiopia played in influencing and developing Egypt. From the onset, the Egyptians were originally from the south (Nubia), subsequently, they migrated north. The need to exorcise North Africa Egypt out of Africa shows just to what lengths whites will go to rob blacks of global recognition. In fact, to associate blacks with any type of advanced civilization is beyond their comprehension. Their arrogance and cultural programming simply will not allow them to accept and realize that African people were capable of creating and successfully maintaining civilization before their late arrival. Civilization did not began once whites (a derivative group) came on the scene. African and Asian civilizations are two of the oldest civilizations on the planet and were thousands of years old before anyone has ever heard of a European. To claim that North Africa is "Mediterranean" is just as ridiculous as black people going over into Europe and claiming that parts of Europe are African!

[This message was edited by Rowe on February 13, 2004 at 01:10 PM.]
White folks like MelASSi are nothing more then victims of their own propaganda.

quote:
If these people are truly concerned about false history and racism then they need to direct their wasted energy to a kkk or white supremacist website.


Amen "nuff said" ^


quote:
Furthermore, many anthropologist, scholars ect., of the past and present both black and white other then Diop has provided hard evidence to the deaf, dumb and blind that kemet was founded and substained by black people.


Exactly!!! They used to say that Queen Nefertiti was white. Next thing I know, I'm looking at a program on the Discovery Channel talking about a beautiful Queen who turns out to be BLACK after all. But black folks who knew better knew it right alone.

Next thing they come out with is going to be Cleopatra. They were wrong about Nefertiti and you know they're wrong about Cleo.

Like I said... "white folks are the victims of thier own propaganda." giveup
Lotusflower,

"Melesi" is a Lingala word. It's the language of my ancestors. You don't need to respect me, but you really should respect an African language and people.

Your popsts do not say anything except that you disagree. Fine. But you are not logical or thinking. We need thinkers. Please start.
Melesi, i'm going to share something with you. Honestly in the beggining it was hard for me to believe the egypt was black as well. I honestly thought the claims were baseless and were an insult to the egyptians of today. When i found out the truth first came elation and a pride that can't be described in words. I would go to clubs and instead of seeing bitches and hoes and knuckle headed niggas, i began to kings and queens and gods and goddeses. But the elation soon faded when i began to look at africa today, and at all african nations (including our state here in america) and for awhile i was bitter and disgusted that the first children of god had fallen so far. But the bitterness too soon faded. When it left it was replaced by the realization that if africans are ever going to walk instead of crawl in this world, then we must know our history.....the GOOD and the BAD. Imagine Melesi imagine a generation of black children taught that their ancestors were the founders of civilization. Despite all the ignorance and oppression we STILL have managed to accomlish a lot in a short amount of time. Imagine if the shackes of learning history through the eyes of someone else were removed. Can you imagine it? I can. And so can those who rule this world that is why you have to sift through ridiculous genetic jargon, that why my ancestors appear to be arab when i see them on tv, that is why our children learn about nothing but their history after slavery. and that is why you a professed black person fight so hard against what is obvious. They know that knowledge of self is power to self. As long as you feed off their tit of deceit then you will remain powerless. And you will never be a threat to them. As you are now you are an agent of the matrix, afrocentric knowledge is a virus speading throught the system, and you have been programmed to eliminate the virus. But i sense in you the stirring of self awareness. will you embrace it or continue with your programming? Know this though no matter what you decide, the truth will spread, and soon you and those like you will be seen as the virus in the new operating system that is being programmed on site like this and swagga, and boards and chat rooms too numerius to count all over the web, And in black college classrooms and in afrocentric bookstores all over the us. The goal is for all to know the truth, and in that knowing use it to better their situations and the collective situation of our people. History alone can't fix our problems, but IT HAS TO BE A PART OF THE SOLUTION. If you truly are a black person stop this debate now, post no more. And whatever site you post in stay away from the subject of egypt. It is your decision to accpet the lies. BUt do not influence anyone else who may not have the resources or time i and others like me here have had. If You are white..... GET THE HELL OUT OF OUR COMMUNITY WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE!!!
Kem, you are not the first and you wont' be the last to order Melesi to leave our community. MBM and all the sound-minded members on this board tried all the methods: respect, mockery, insolence, silence but nothing is staunch enough to make this parasite get the hell out, so yes I believe this person is being paid to spread propaganda in here!!


AfroMan.
quote:
Originally posted by Afroman:
Kem, you are not the first and you wont' be the last to order Melesi to leave our community. MBM and all the sound-minded members on this board tried all the methods: respect, mockery, insolence, silence but nothing is staunch enough to make this parasite get the hell out, so yes I believe this person is being paid to spread propaganda in here!!


AfroMan.


The most disturbing aspect of Melesi's contention is that apparently its simply too difficult for him or her to believe that blacks are capable of having a civilization of this magnitude without the "instructional wisdom" and/or "biological influence" of some outside group. Its much too difficult to imagine that "pure negroids" possessed the kind of motivation, spiritual, and mathematical intelligence to create this civilization on their own volition. By making this argument, what they are really saying is that Blacks are simply too stupid to carry out such a feat. Undoubtedly, they have to be "mixed" with "Arabs" "Mediterraneans," "Greeks," "Asians," or something, they could never do this on their own. Why are whites willing to go so far as to classify the Egyptians as a "unidentified," "raceless" group of people rather than acknowledge them for what they were: African people inhabiting a African country in Africa. More importantly, why is it that everyone else (i.e., Arabs, Asians, Europeans, and even the American Native) can take credit for creating civilization, but not black people? What about the African is so inferior that creating a civilization of this magnitude is impossible?

[This message was edited by Rowe on February 17, 2004 at 02:19 PM.]
First of all praises to the Most High and Christ.

The truth is that the Hebrews which are the Israelites are Black. In fact the so-called African-American, West Indian, Haitian are the True Jews, the Israelites according to Gods word in the Authorised King James Holy Bible 1611 Edition.

I have posted details about this on another forum:

http://www.blackliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4461

http://www.blackliving.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4460

http://www.theholyconceptionunit.org (Your source for the Biblical truth)
How, on Earth, presumably, did you come to the comclusion that the tribe of Dan is black? Who, exactly, do you believe the nation of Denmark to be named for? Also, the use of a word meaning "black" does not necessarily constitute a reference to dark-skinned Africans. For example, the Kok/GokTurks of Eastern Europe, Western and Central Asia, etc. were divided into white and black groups. However, the black Kok/GokTurks, as you might deduce from the fact that this group inhabited a land a great distance from the African continent, were most assuredly not dark-skinned Africans. Also, it should be obvious to anyone not attempting to read any message of racial pride into the scriptural references that you listed, and reading the entirety of the Torah, that Canaan was cursed by Noah to be the lowest of slaves TO both Japheth and Shem(Shem being the ancestor of Israel)not to share in the heritage of the Israelites. I also believe there to be a tremendous significance associated with verse 9:27 as it relates to the subject of identifying Israel, but that is for those who have ears to hear. Also, it is blatantly stated by Noah, "Blessed be the LORD, The God of Shem; Let Canaan be a slave(not co-religionist)to them."-Text in parentheses is added, obviously. Notice that the LORD is referred to not even as the God of Japheth, much less Ham, but OF SHEM!!!

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