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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
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If I ever find myself working to deny or exclude the rights of others, then what separates me from the oppressor?


Maybe I'm wrong; but I don't see FUBU thinking as "working to deny or exclude."

If it means only doing that which is in my (our) interest, then I believe that one can easily find themselves being complicit in the oppression of others.

It is also the question of who is "us." Does the "us" include GLBT people of African ancestry? What about Afro-Latino's (Mexican, Salvadoran, Guatamalean, Nicaraguan, Panamanean, etc)? If not, why not? If so, what is the basis?
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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

Maybe I'm wrong; but I don't see FUBU thinking as "working to deny or exclude."


Agree 100% We just have to take a much more strategic view of this. It IS in our interests to support the undocumented workers in this issue. Doing so and fighting to grant them citizenship immediately removes the downward pressure on wages and causes our mutual oppressor to ante up. Higher wages and the elimination of the current incentive that companies have to hire undocumented labor helps poor and working class African Americans all over this country. Beyond that, aligning with Mexican Americans gives African America a greater base of political power with which to fight for OUR interests. We support them on an issue and they support us. Coalition politics has nothing to do with abdicating control, and everything to do with expediency in getting shyt done!

Too much of African America is thinking like Kobe on this issue - that its got to be HIS show and his show alone. How many championships do you think he will win that way?
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Originally posted by MBM:
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Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

Maybe I'm wrong; but I don't see FUBU thinking as "working to deny or exclude."


Agree 100% We just have to take a much more strategic view of this. It IS in our interests to support the undocumented workers in this issue. Doing so and fighting to grant them citizenship immediately removes the downward pressure on wages and causes our mutual oppressor to ante up. Higher wages and the elimination of the current incentive that companies have to hire undocumented labor helps poor and working class African Americans all over this country. Beyond that, aligning with Mexican Americans gives African America a greater base of political power with which to fight for OUR interests. We support them on an issue and they support us. Coalition politics has nothing to do with abdicating control, and everything to do with expediency in getting shyt done!

Too much of African America is thinking like Kobe on this issues - that its got to be HIS show and his show alone. How many championships do you think he will win that way?


agreed.I don't see why this is so difficult for people to understand. this is not a turf war.

it's to our benefit to force companies to stop exploiting labor. we need to help shine the light on companies that take advantage of cheap labor. This only helps us. we need to take away the incentive companies have to go after cheap labor.

Also, we need to face reality. The latino population will be if not already the largest group in the US. We need to build alliances with them, not be jealous of them.
Okay, MBM, maybe we're getting somewhere!

For my position, let me state unequivocally, that I am not in the least bit interested in assigning blame. I couldn't care less whose "fault" it is. And I do mean less. Assigning blame for this problem doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of a solution to it. So you point the finger at a bad guy ... and then what??

What I do care about, though, is that for every ancestor of which I am a descendant, whose same bloodline flows within me that were brought to this country in chains, suffered the indignities of slavery, built this country with their blood, sweat, lives and tears, endured Jim Crow and the denial of the recognition and basic human and civil right of being seen as a full-blooded, fully endowed citizen of this country in which their bones are still buried, I claim that right, now and today, for them and for myself ... and I will continue to want and fight for every entitlement thereof, for myself and for those that are coming behind me. That's #1.

#2 – As far as I'm concerned, this country/government is dropping the ball on providing what is entitled to it's citizens, considering America is supposed to be the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world. That goes for me and my people, in particular .... But to be fair, the same is true as to all Americans in general. It's not that I mind sharing, but clearly, there already isn't enough to go around! Eek And who do you think suffers most? We have always been and continue to be on the bottom rung of the citizenship totem pole. As the slices of pie get smaller, who is the first to get less or none?

As long as I see elderly Black (and poor) citizens who put in their time and their money into building this country stronger going without the basic services of electricity and water and housing and healthcare ... and as long as I see Black (and poor) military veterans being denied basic medical care and services, out in the street homeless after offering their lives to serve this country as citizens, as long as I see Black (and poor) children being forced to learn in substandard schools with out of date books ... and the unemployment rate for Black citizens remains at levels double digits over the national level .... All of which are being told there's no money available for to help them ... and I watch as millions of illegal immigrants (and I couldn't care less about what race or nationality they happen to be!) are receiving and taking advantage of these benefits and services, this is what I'm going to have a problem with.

Legalizing these millions of currently illegal immigrants with the stroke of a pen, is not going to change this situation for Black people ... and, in fact, any supposed benefit is purely speculative. They evoke the name of MLK, but how many of them evoke his policy of securing certain basic human and social rights for citizens of any race, creed or color? Where were these millions of people when Affirmative Action was under attack? How many of them are organizing to march to change the justice/incarceration laws and are putting out a call to having their gang members stop attacking ours in prison? I've seen no Mexican lobbies out to insure that New Orleans is built back up by the people it affected most ... no, instead, they are gratefully accepting the offer of providing cheaper labor which serves to infuse their own selves and communities with cash and resources ... doled out by our government with our tax dollars, no less!

And for the record, Mr. Greenspan's little declaration may have spoken for funds at the federal level, but the state and local budgets and economies are a whole different checkbook!! The Feds can't reimburse the states for monies spent on mandated 9-11 security laws ... how much do you think they're getting back for providing services to non-legal immigrants?

To this point and time, illegal immigration has not benefited me or Black people, in general. Nor have I been shown where it is probable to benefit me or us in the future. Their detriment to us, however, has been enumerated throughout this post. And the bottom line is that is what I care about. Laying blame is a lesson in futility as compared to enacting a solution to the problem created by illegal immigration.

Prehaps you don't see a problem with it, though. And that's cool. But, I'll bet that Vet that can't afford the medication he needs to fight the symptoms of disease created from his exposure to Agent Orange while serving in our military might, since money that could be going towards supplementing his medical care is being used to provide healthcare to someone who can't claim citizenship, and in many cases, can't even speak English. Roll Eyes
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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

For my position, let me state unequivocally, that I am not in the least bit interested in assigning blame. I couldn't care less whose "fault" it is. And I do mean less. Assigning blame for this problem doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of a solution to it. So you point the finger at a bad guy ... and then what??


If you don't accurately identify the source of your problem, how can you reasonably expect to solve it? This is the crux of the problem. White Supremacy Inc. would have you focus your angst on Mexicans and away from those who get rich on exploiting both. Again, Mexicans have not set wages. Mexicans have not hired anyone. White Supremacy Inc. has. Without clarity on this point, whatever energy you have is misplaced. And that's the point.
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What I do care about, though, is that for every ancestor of which I am a descendant, whose same bloodline flows within me that were brought to this country in chains, suffered the indignities of slavery, built this country with their blood, sweat, lives and tears, endured Jim Crow and the denial of the recognition and basic human and civil right of being seen as a full-blooded, fully endowed citizen of this country in which their bones are still buried, I claim that right, now and today, for them and for myself ... and I will continue to want and fight for every entitlement thereof, for myself and for those that are coming behind me. That's #1.


Fighting for our interests is what politics and advocacy is all about. Again, you just have to be able to define your interests broadly enough to include ALL activities that help you. Affirmative action in education won't persoanlly help me. I am no longer in a situation where I could take advantage of that. Nevertheless, I define my interests in a way that sees helping other African Americans with AA as also helping me. As a black man in America, I define my interests in a way that includes the elimination of discrimination to ALL people in this country. Moreover, my interests are served however I can build support to oppose those things that are counter to my achievement, objectives, and interests. Being strategic in creating alliances with groups who share interests helps me because it increases my influence and power in this country. Lastly, misdirecting angst toward groups who are similarly exploited is decidedly NOT in my interests as it strengthens and sustains my oppressor and wastes my precious energy on the wrong party - allowing White Supremacy Inc. to keep its foot on my neck.

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As the slices of pie get smaller, who is the first to get less or none?


I guess it depends upon how you slice your pie. If the "have nots" could ever organize and aggregate their power then they would represent the CLEAR and overwhelming majority in this country. Things would change for poor and working class people. WSI would have us continue to think in parochial and myopic ways as opposed to realizing that economic affinity is probably the most fundamental one in America - not racial or ethnic.

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As long as I see elderly Black (and poor) citizens who put in their time and their money into building this country stronger going without the basic services of electricity and water and housing and healthcare ... and as long as I see Black (and poor) military veterans being denied basic medical care and services, out in the street homeless after offering their lives to serve this country as citizens, as long as I see Black (and poor) children being forced to learn in substandard schools with out of date books ... and the unemployment rate for Black citizens remains at levels double digits over the national level


Mexicans have nothing to do with this.
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Where were these millions of people when Affirmative Action was under attack?


Respectfully, this is the wrong question. Again, where was African America during WW2 and the Jewish fight for Israel? Did the fact that we didn't support them in any meaningful way prevent them from supporting us during the CRM? We've got to think forward and not back.


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And for the record, Mr. Greenspan's little declaration may have spoken for funds at the federal level, but the state and local budgets and economies are a whole different checkbook!!


Undocumented workers probably pay an even higher share of local taxes since it comes from sales taxes and property taxes and excise taxes - which are consumption based.

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To this point and time, illegal immigration has not benefited me or Black people, in general.


I hope you are not somehow thinking that I have been saying this. If so - then I haven't been writing very clearly.

AFRICAN AMERICA IS BEING EXPLOITED, OPPRESSED AND HARMED VIA THE ILLEGAL HIRING OF UNDOCUMENTED LABOR.

All I've been saying is that the undocumented workers are not our enemy or the ones exploiting us. It is the people who set the wages and make the hiring decisions. If we can understand this, then we can more effectively direct our angst and energy to solve the problem.
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I've seen no Mexican lobbies out to insure that New Orleans is built back up by the people it affected most ... no, instead, they are gratefully accepting the offer of providing cheaper labor which serves to infuse their own selves and communities with cash and resources ... doled out by our government with our tax dollars, no less!


EbonyRose, We can't and shouldn't expect Mexican people to protest in our behalf, this we should do for ourselves. It's black people who need to stand and be counted. Once we get organized and "stand up" you'll then see others helping in our cause. To your point regarding cheaper labor please read what MBM has been saying. It's our government and corporations that's encouraging and allowing this to happen. These mexicans are poor people who's ultimate goal is to feed and take care of their families so of course they'll work for cheap wages.. We need to focus our energy on the real problem which is our goverment and businesses. Please look at who's running the government and the corporations and you'll find the crux of the problem.
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Originally posted by MBM:
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Originally posted by Noah The African:

There are two willing participants being matched up. You have businesses looking for cheap labor and you have illegal immigrants coming here to do it. You would think that if things were so bad that they would be calling back to Mexico telling the people they not to come here and face this abuse...but the fact that they keep coming tells me the opposite.


The fact that working under crazy conditions and getting paid peanuts is better than things in Mexcio does not erase the fact that they are being exploited and in many cases abused. Either we believe in U.S. law and in general standards of how people should be treated in the world or we don't. Maybe we shouldn't care about people working in sweatshops. Screw it - it gets me cheaper clothes right?
td6

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Another thing is that black people in Latin America are still second class citizens. I can't help but to believe that if we unified with their movement as soon as they achieved their objective and increased power....they would go back to looking at us like they do in their homelands and may join allegiance with white folks who look at us in the same way, in order to win favor with white folks. Also, look at the way Hispanics are attacking and threatening black folks in California.


Political alliances have NOTHING to do with natural "love and affection" between groups. It's ALL about power and achieving objectives. African Americans would - no doubt - have to be smart/strategic enough to successfully manage any relationship with Latinos to increase our influence in America.

Of course, it won't be easy. White supremacy never wants its victims to unite, now does it?

P.S. Do these three groups have any natural affinity for each other? Despite that they came together to accomplish an objective. When that objective was over - obviously - they went their separate ways.



I am just not feeling this alliance. I fully understand divide and conquer but I am not for actively fighting and standing with those who voluntarily choose to be exploited. Everything is relative. What we are conditioned to see as exploitation others are conditioned to see as an opportunity. Hence, by fighting against the exploitation of them you are also fighting to deny them the personal choice of pursuing opportunity. Just like many of us make the choice between the two evils of Republican or Democrat, many of these immigrants make the choice between exploitation at home vs. exploitation in the USA. Many pick the lesser of the two evils as they must choose one or the other in order to survive.

For me to support this I would essentially have to support the concept of open borders and free movement of workers into our country from other nations. The essential economic effect of that is that it will drive down the wages of American workers considerably as the laws of supply and demand sets price points for labor as over supplying labor reduces the value of that labor.

The real deal of what is going on is this. The business community in America is seeking cheap wages to increase profit margins. In regards to tradable/exportable goods, the tactics are to offshore jobs to countries with cheap labor. In regards to non tradable services and agricultural labor, the tactic is to use immigrant labor. The people who end up losing out are American workers who would have these jobs IF THEY PAID A DESCENT WAGE. This is NOT work that American won't do....its work that Americans won't do without commiserate pay.

For me there are packages, in the package deal for what Hispanics are rallying for, which I support, however, I don't support the composite. In other words, there are a lot of different individual issues embedded in this current immigration movement and I support some of them but not the package. The problem is that I don't get to itemize and pick and choose. Thus, I have to reject the package deal and alliance.
MBM ... I don't have time to comment on your post above right now (and I will, because I actually agree with what you said at the end! Smile), but I'd like to ask you just two quick questions, if I may:

#1 - Have you ever lived in a state that border's Mexico? If so, which one and for how long?

#2 - Please go out on a hypothetical limb with me for a moment .... do you believe that if illegal Mexican immigrants in this country today were denied the educational/medical/housing/social benefits and services that they are currently allowed to utilize ... would they continue to come here, stay here and work here under the same conditions they are living and working under now?
Confused
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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

#1 - Have you ever lived in a state that border's Mexico? If so, which one and for how long?


I lived in San Diego for about 5 years.

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#2 - Please go out on a hypothetical limb with me for a moment .... do you believe that if illegal Mexican immigrants in this country today were denied the educational/medical/housing/social benefits and services that they are currently allowed to utilize ... would they continue to come here, stay here and work here under the same conditions they are living and working under now?


Sure - to presume otherwise would suggest that they have those things at home - which I would bet they do not in consistent supply or quality. Beyond that, again - I would ask why do you think that incentive is in place? Whose interests does it serve? WSI!
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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

To this point and time, illegal immigration has not benefited me or Black people, in general.


On the other hand, illegal immigration has benifitted my wife, her extended family, and even her entire neighborhood, considering that it was her who singlehandedly (at a cost of nearly 2000 US dollars, paid for by cleaning and washing dishes) brought telephone lines into her neighborhood so that she could call her family, decreasing tremendously the cost for others to hook up their phone service, who had only to pay for the last few feet into their house.

Now, the majority of people in her neighborhood have telephone service.

Yes, some black people definately do benifit from illegal immigration.
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Originally posted by alonzo:
EbonyRose, We can't and shouldn't expect Mexican people to protest in our behalf, this we should do for ourselves. It's black people who need to stand and be counted. Once we get organized and "stand up" you'll then see others helping in our cause. To your point regarding cheaper labor please read what MBM has been saying. It's our government and corporations that's encouraging and allowing this to happen. These mexicans are poor people who's ultimate goal is to feed and take care of their families so of course they'll work for cheap wages.. We need to focus our energy on the real problem which is our goverment and businesses. Please look at who's running the government and the corporations and you'll find the crux of the problem.


alonzo ...

Yes, we can and we should expect just that AND it is something we need to do for ourselves as well. There is not one gain that we made during the Civil Rights Movement that is of exclusive benefit to African Americans. Our gain turns into everybody's gain, because that is the way the promise of "America" is intended to work. And, seemingly, Black folks have never had a problem with that.

People of other races are able to 1) come here, 2) enjoy freedoms, 3) protest freely, 4) enjoy a lesser degree of discrimination than where they come from, 5) live wherever they can afford to do so, etc., etc., because Black people stood up and fought for and sacrificed for and demanded all of those things from an oppresive government, that clearly cared for no one other than those that looked like them ... for hundreds of years.

The same government and corporations that are exploiting cheap Mexican labor have been stepping on the necks of our people since the dawn of this Republic. So, okay, no problem, I'll be mad at them for what they're doing to Mexicans ... but that "mad" will have to get in line behind the "mad" I already am for what they have done/are doing to African Americans!! I mean, it's not like this is some new tactic unleashed in this country ... solely aimed at the current situation of illegal immigration! I don't need a reason to be "mad at" or to "blame" this gov't or big business for their wrongdoings. I have hundreds of years worth of reasons backed up, already, thank you. Eek

Every race of non-white people owe their ability to live as freely as they do in large part to the sacrifices of mainly Black people that made it happen .... because, it has never been a matter of "This is America ... and here are your rights"!! Even though that's what's written in the very Constitution that governs this land. The fight is/was/always has been ours ... and as long as it continues, those currently enjoying and benefitting what we've accomplished so far, should have an obligation to stand with us and for us ... every step of the way. Roll Eyes
I heard a caller on C-Span use this analogy: There are people with homes much nicer than mine. Should I be allowed to simply go move into their home because it offers things that my home does not? Would I be trespassing illegally?

America is no different from a home. It the private properties of this nation and just like our homes...people come in by invitation and not by climbing through the window then demanding the right to stay in our home because they have made a bed in it and their home is a shack.

I am all for immigration, but not illegal immigration which gives businesses the opportunity to hire people below wage standards. If a business can pay two illegals at the same cost of One American, two illegals will gain a job while one American will lose out on one. Furthermore, were all the Hispanics when the issue of immigration dealt with the BLACK HAITIANS? The Hispanics in Florida were one of the main groups fighting to ship these black folks back to the island while fighting to keep "their people" here who did the same thing.

Black people should not allow ourselves to be played like this. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice....shame on me.
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Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Every race of non-white people owe their ability to live as freely as they do in large part to the sacrifices of mainly Black people that made it happen .... because, it has never been a matter of "This is America ... and here are your rights"!! Even though that's what's written in the very Constitution that governs this land. The fight is/was/always has been ours ... and as long as it continues, those currently enjoying and benefitting what we've accomplished so far, should have an obligation to stand with us and for us ... every step of the way. Roll Eyes

Now that's a Powerful Member Quote!

The ironic thing about that though, Ebony, is that White poeple also owe their ability to live as freely as they do to African Americans.
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Yes, we can and we should expect just that AND it is something we need to do for ourselves as well. There is not one gain that we made during the Civil Rights Movement that is of exclusive benefit to African Americans. Our gain turns into everybody's gain, because that is the way the promise of "America" is intended to work. And, seemingly, Black folks have never had a problem with that.

People of other races are able to 1) come here, 2) enjoy freedoms, 3) protest freely, 4) enjoy a lesser degree of discrimination than where they come from, 5) live wherever they can afford to do so, etc., etc., because Black people stood up and fought for and sacrificed for and demanded all of those things from an oppresive government, that clearly cared for no one other than those that looked like them ... for hundreds of years.

The same government and corporations that are exploiting cheap Mexican labor have been stepping on the necks of our people since the dawn of this Republic. So, okay, no problem, I'll be mad at them for what they're doing to Mexicans ... but that "mad" will have to get in line behind the "mad" I already am for what they have done/are doing to African Americans!! I mean, it's not like this is some new tactic unleashed in this country ... solely aimed at the current situation of illegal immigration! I don't need a reason to be "mad at" or to "blame" this gov't or big business for their wrongdoings. I have hundreds of years worth of reasons backed up, already, thank you.

Every race of non-white people owe their ability to live as freely as they do in large part to the sacrifices of mainly Black people that made it happen .... because, it has never been a matter of "This is America ... and here are your rights"!! Even though that's what's written in the very Constitution that governs this land. The fight is/was/always has been ours ... and as long as it continues, those currently enjoying and benefitting what we've accomplished so far, should have an obligation to stand with us and for us ... every step of the way.

Ebonyrose----I don't disagree with anything you said except the first sentence. Unfortunately if you or any of us wait for someone else to stand in our behalf then you'll be waiting a long time. It's simply not going to happen and that's why I say we have to do it ourselves.
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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Every race of non-white people owe their ability to live as freely as they do in large part to the sacrifices of mainly Black people that made it happen .... because, it has never been a matter of "This is America ... and here are your rights"!! Even though that's what's written in the very Constitution that governs this land. The fight is/was/always has been ours ... and as long as it continues, those currently enjoying and benefitting what we've accomplished so far, should have an obligation to stand with us and for us ... every step of the way. Roll Eyes



I agree. So then let's give Latinos an opportunity to support us. Coming out against issues that are absolutely integral - in the most acute way - to their very lives and security is a great way to invite their support. sck

Despite their growing numbers here, Latinos have yet to galvanize politically in a way that they no doubt will. If there is a lack of support previously for us its been because in general they haven't been organized, or in a position, to support us. Let's not push Latinos into the hands of white America and conservatives. nono
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Despite their growing numbers here, Latinos have yet to galvanize politically in a way that they no doubt will. If there is a lack of support previously for us its been because in general they haven't been organized, or in a position, to support us.


You have clearly never lived in Miami. Quite organized and QUITE racist. sck

Other than that, I agree with everything you've said.

I'm so thankful to be the child of immigrants and not have this "America is MINE!! Everyone else needs to go home or jump through Whitey's hoops to stay here!" view of this country. Why on Earth would Mexicans join in a struggle with us when we are actively seeking to boot them out of this country or trying to deny them even the most basic necessities?? We're all on this land illegally.
alonzo ...

I didn't mean to intimate that we wait for anything or anyone! Smile It wasn't an "or" situation ... it was they should AND we should too.

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Originally posted by MBM:
I agree. So then let's give Latinos an opportunity to support us. Coming out against issues that are absolutely integral - in the most acute way - to their very lives and security is a great way to invite their support. sck


I don't have a problem with this, MBM. I have no problem with any alliance or coalition with any group of people that will produce a benefit for the Black community.

Hispanics have had ample opportunity to support us ... as I said before, Affirmative Action or the past two rigged elections or the Katrina incident are just a few examples. In fact, AA is an example of something that is highly beneficial to them as well, not just us.

I don't happen to see where illegal immigration fits into that bill, though. As a Black woman, nor as an American.

Frenchy ...

I guess it is easier for someone who was able to choose to come here and follow their dream of making a better life for themselves and their family to accept their role here and that of others like them in enjoying the benefits of someone else's sacrifice ... than it is for some of us who had no choice than to be here, had to fight for our acceptance and still cannot find respect for simply wanting a good and/or better life for ourselves and our families, in exchange for our sacrifice. But I really wouldn't know. sck
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Originally posted by MBM:
You're right, of course,


Indeed. girl

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but I'm not sure Miami has much to do with the current immigration issue.


Well, there's a very large immigration issue in South Florida. Mexicans aren't the only people who come here. Miami Cubans are quite influential with regard to exactly who stays and who goes. They weild a great deal of political power. That's what I was referring to.

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