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Black Folks: It is Time to Lay Down the Mantle
Dell Gines

We have been through a lot as a people group, the middle passage, slavery, Jim Crow, sharecropping, segregation and the composite effects of those things on our current generation. To overcome we rebelled, we ran, we politicked, we hustled, and we marched. Our history is one of overcoming in the face of tyranny and abuse, of facing down psychological warfare, and social and economic disenfranchisement.

Because of this history many of us, and logically so, feel it is our responsibility to preserve for others the things we ourselves have won. Considered as the moral conscience of America, when outrages that smack of social injustice occur we are usually the first group in line to denounce them, even if the one offended against isn't a member of 'our' group. We view that as our mantle by virtue of our legacy in America. I believe it is time that we lay that mantle down.

During the recent immigration rallies one of the things that you saw was black folk at the forefront, on the podiums, in support. On the street level you heard rumblings from black folk that illegal immigrants were being used, exploited, 'disenfranchised' and should be allowed to have the rights as citizens. Valid or invalid perspectives aside, our historical memory resonated with the rhetoric of the supporters of the movement. We asked ourselves how can we who fought for our enfranchisement in America not support the enfranchisement of others? We wore our mantle.

It is time to lay that mantle down. Why? It is because we must deal with the realities of our situation as Black Americans today. In our effort to be the arbiter of social justice for all, we have effectively eliminated our own progress as a group. In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished. As we spread our intellectual capital, our human capital, and our emotional energy into issues such as this immigration issue that clearly benefits another ethnic group while doing nothing to materially advance our own we keep ourselves in post-civil rights limbo. Our best and brightest seem to co-mingle social justice for all with black elevation for us. This is a mixture that doesn't mix well when economic growth and power is the next hurdle that must be jumped in our continue struggle as blacks.

So it is time to lay the mantle down. It is time to circle the wagons, and re-position ourselves to escape the post civil rights funk we are in. We need to turn our intellectual capital, human capital and emotional energy on issues exclusively related to black empowerment, particularly on an economic level in America. We are carrying that unnecessary burden to fix all of the nations acts that we perceive to be acts social injustice and it is a burden that we are simply not strong enough to carry and be effective at dealing with our own issues.

We are sensitive and compassionate, and those are noble traits to have, but our sensitivity and compassion for others should never supercede our desire for elevation of us. Our struggles have made us sensitive, but our struggles are not over. When we are at the place we need to be as black folks, then we can pick up that mantle of social justice and we will have the strength to carry the burden of being America's moral conscience. Until then we need to lay that mantle down and free our strengths in focus of our own people.
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quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:

When we are at the place we need to be as black folks, then we can pick up that mantle of social justice and we will have the strength to carry the burden of being America's moral conscience. Until then we need to lay that mantle down and free our strengths in focus of our own people.


I appreciate your thoughtful comments. Another way of looking at this is that the world is a complex, co-dependent, multi-faceted place where people and groups must learn to work and live with each other to meet their needs. In that spirit, one could believe that it is better/more effective to align with others with similar interests than to try to fight the world alone. Aggregating groups with similar interests to increase the probability of success for all would seem to be both a logical and efficient way to proceed. Furthermore, I would also argue that for those who care, speaking out against injustice (wherever it may be found) ADDS energy and refocuses the commitment to one's own struggles.
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
When we are at the place we need to be as black folks, then we can pick up that mantle of social justice and we will have the strength to carry the burden of being America's moral conscience. Until then we need to lay that mantle down and free our strengths in focus of our own people.

We cannot get to the place we need to be as Black folks without fighting social injustice. We don't have the luxury of picking these battles. All of our problems began with the hypocricy of White America... All men are created equal, except for the slaves. Because they are not people, they're property.

Are you suggesting that we lay down the mantle of fighting social injustice... and pick up the mantle of supporting social hypocricy?
No, but we fight social injustice that affects us 1st and foremost.

Blacks for blacks first.

Now to address both of your post. I am not arguing against mutually aligning with other groups or even whites when there is a clear benefit to us. But we have a habit of wasting resources and energy on issues that benefit other groups and only minorly benefit us if at all.

For example, when was the last time you have seen a strong hispanic support for any issue that was specifically related to blacks? The issue in Cincinatti a while back, where were the hispanic activist etc. rallying to support a 'black thing'.

Many of our leaders have taking up the anti-homosexual thang. When have you ever seen a collecting group of gays step out on behalf of blacks when it is a 'black thang'.

The fact is in this nation it is a rarity when other groups or ethnicities actively support black causes, but we step out often on theirs.

Some social justice issue do not effective us as a group, and those we should not be involved in.

Pragmatically speaking, every time we use intelletual, economic and emotional capital on issues that don't benefit us, we maintain our status quo condition or cause it to decline. When we use that capital on issues that only minorly effect us, when we could use them on issues that advance us, we stagnate our growth.

So no, I am not saying don't mutually align ourself with groups or on issues that mutually benefit us. That simply is strategically using others to advance your own agenda (like folks do to us all the time) and it serves the higher principle of black elevation. But it must be mutually beneficial to us, and it must be beneficial in a greater capacity than the use of those forms of capital would be in other areas of black elevation.

We have no moral obligation to help any other race until after we have first helped our own.
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:

The fact is in this nation it is a rarity when other groups or ethnicities actively support black causes, but we step out often on theirs.


You raise an interesting point that I'm going to think about. Other than the white liberal/Jewish civil rights support in the 1960's and the abolitionist movement (in England and the Northeast) during slavery - I am hard pressed to think of others openly supporting us (other than perhaps the U.S. military and a subset of corporate America on affirmative action).
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:

Smile Ebony I ain't all bad.

I just read this from blackelectorate.com, it provides another perspective:

http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/sayitloud/kane413


Someone posted that here. I happen to vociferously disagree with the argument (and article) against our supporting Mexicans now because both African Americans AND Mexicans are BOTH being exploited by American companies. In this instance, we are uniquely tied together against the precisely same opponent on the same issue. That opponent has spent years upon years in 'spinning' that exploitation in a way that pits us against each other (to their benefit), but there is only one true winner in this illegal hiring issue, and that is the companies that break the law to exploit both of us.
How are we tied together? If they want to be exploited and understand they are being supported , why would they join us, when they know the are competing for the same job. If we could get the Big Corporations to pay a fair living wage for every job they fill it would be different. But you got both houses of Congress making excuses for the loophole, so what change do you think there is for Big Business to get a conscious and stop hiring cheap labor?
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I think some of us would do well to realize that the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend. Roll Eyes


Are you really suggesting that you can't see the connectivity here? The very same "enemy" is harming both of us. Do you dispute this? Who is harming us? Who is exploiting them?

Beyond that - how is the enemy of our enemy NOT our friend? Please explain that.
For one thing I do not see the legal injustice against the Hispanics to make this a social justice civil rights issue. There are two willing participants being matched up. You have businesses looking for cheap labor and you have illegal immigrants coming here to do it. You would think that if things were so bad that they would be calling back to Mexico telling the people they not to come here and face this abuse...but the fact that they keep coming tells me the opposite.

Another thing is that black people in Latin America are still second class citizens. I can't help but to believe that if we unified with their movement as soon as they achieved their objective and increased power....they would go back to looking at us like they do in their homelands and may join allegiance with white folks who look at us in the same way, in order to win favor with white folks. Also, look at the way Hispanics are attacking and threatening black folks in California.

What we need is black unity and not dilute our PECULIAR interest rising from the PECULIAR INSTITUTION (slavery) that put us in this peculiar predicament. Without power and unity amongst ourselves....others will just use us to get what they want.
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

There are two willing participants being matched up. You have businesses looking for cheap labor and you have illegal immigrants coming here to do it. You would think that if things were so bad that they would be calling back to Mexico telling the people they not to come here and face this abuse...but the fact that they keep coming tells me the opposite.


The fact that working under crazy conditions and getting paid peanuts is better than things in Mexcio does not erase the fact that they are being exploited and in many cases abused. Either we believe in U.S. law and in general standards of how people should be treated in the world or we don't. Maybe we shouldn't care about people working in sweatshops. Screw it - it gets me cheaper clothes right?
td6

quote:
Another thing is that black people in Latin America are still second class citizens. I can't help but to believe that if we unified with their movement as soon as they achieved their objective and increased power....they would go back to looking at us like they do in their homelands and may join allegiance with white folks who look at us in the same way, in order to win favor with white folks. Also, look at the way Hispanics are attacking and threatening black folks in California.


Political alliances have NOTHING to do with natural "love and affection" between groups. It's ALL about power and achieving objectives. African Americans would - no doubt - have to be smart/strategic enough to successfully manage any relationship with Latinos to increase our influence in America.

Of course, it won't be easy. White supremacy never wants its victims to unite, now does it?

P.S. Do these three groups have any natural affinity for each other? Despite that they came together to accomplish an objective. When that objective was over - obviously - they went their separate ways.
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quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I think some of us would do well to realize that the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend. Roll Eyes


Are you really suggesting that you can't see the connectivity here? The very same "enemy" is harming both of us. Do you dispute this? Who is harming us? Who is exploiting them?

Beyond that - how is the enemy of our enemy NOT our friend? Please explain that.


No, that's not what I'm suggesting.
No, I don't dispute that.

Against my better judgment, and all reasonable doubt that it will do any good, I will try.

It is as Dell Gines explained above, so I will not go into repeating him, but rather suggest that you go back and re-read it.

I believe the biggest problem we are having with this issue, MBM, is that in your determination to prove your point, you seem to absolutely refuse to recognize any others.

I have never once denied that I can plainly see that Big Business exploits Mexican labor. Ray Charles can see that with Stevie Wonder's eyes.

That particular point/statement has nothing to do with 1) Entering this country subverting immigration laws is illegal; 2) Cheap Mexican labor depresses wages; 3) Educating/housing/providing medical care to millions of illegal immigrants strains local and state economies; or 4) on issues important to Black Americans, Hispanics have never reached out and offered a coalition to produce hundreds of thousands of supporters on our behalf.

You can scream about your exploitation issue as loud and as often as you like. It will still be as different from and have absolutely nothing to do with the four positions above. In fact, if no illegal Mexican immigrant had a job in this country, three of the four would still be true.

Again, this is no doubt falling on deaf ears, because you have no desire to see any point other than the one you are intent on making. I don't see where anyone here has disputed or denied the fact that Mexicans are exploited by American corporations. I also don't see where you have realized that the rest of us are discussing other relevant issues concerning the immigration issue nor stopped repeating yourself long enough to address those other points.

American corporations are dogging both races, yes. But you want me to get all upset at what they are doing to Mexicans ... I have not yet resolved being upset at what they have been doing to Black people for the last 300 years!! And yeah, I and me and mine come first.

I'll leave the big international group hug singing of Kumbaya to you, while I concentrate more on things directly affecting and of concern to the Black community. sck
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quote:
Originally posted by xxGAMBITxx:
Screw worrying about the "mantle"

Lets pick up the freaking gauntlet!


By letting the illeagal immigrants in while pretending it is so hard to stop the government permits cheap labor from Mexicans to compete with the existing lower classes in America. Lots of rhetoric about Americas imigrant tradition is used to muddy the waters about some fundamental economics of supply and demand.

The war is about the super rich versus everybody else.

umbrarchist
Dell, I'm feeling your message. We, as a people, should focus on our socio/political/economic gain; rather than, fighting for others, who BTW, largely sit on the sidelines during our fights. I haven't heard much from other groups on the Duke matter and don't recall hearing much regarding Katrina.

I think many of those banging the drum for others have either: bought into the multi-cultural/colorblind, "we're all in this together against those folk myth"; run out of steam on the Black advancement front, and are seeking the stage, any stage, to remain relevant; or are drama pimps [see the previous discriptor].

Yes, we can and should form alliances that are mutually beneficial. But the alliances that we have been forming as of late, entail us carrying the water and every other group drinking, leaving us with a dry bucket.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I believe the biggest problem we are having with this issue, MBM, is that in your determination to prove your point, you seem to absolutely refuse to recognize any others.


Well, I have much to learn from you who is SO open minded and recptive of other views. I can really see how you've grown and evolved on this issue! nono

quote:
I have never once denied that I can plainly see that Big Business exploits Mexican labor. Ray Charles can see that with Stevie Wonder's eyes.

That particular point/statement has nothing to do with 1) Entering this country subverting immigration laws is illegal; 2) Cheap Mexican labor depresses wages; 3) Educating/housing/providing medical care to millions of illegal immigrants strains local and state economies; or 4) on issues important to Black Americans, Hispanics have never reached out and offered a coalition to produce hundreds of thousands of supporters on our behalf.


The first paragraph and the second are wholly inconsistent. One cannot credibly hold both positions, IMHO. If you acknowledge that exploitation occurs, then also talking about "subverting" this and "illegal" that makes little sense. That is language that the very same oppressor/exploiter has disseminated to spin the issue in their favor. Second, I have acknowledged that this problem depresses wages and takes jobs away from Americans. Where we disagree is in assigning blame for that fact. Mexicans did not either depress the wages or take jobs. Employers both set wages and decide who and how they will hire. Undocumented workers have no hand in that decision. As I mentioned in another thread, do you also blame the Indians for outsourcing? Would you have blamed the kids caught up in child labor? Did you blame Africans for slavery? Do you blame prostitutes for prostitution? We have a fundamentally different worldview if you agree with all of those things.

Thrid, I have already presented an article from the head of the Federal Reserve which refutes your claim about undocumtend workers' strain of the tax base. Who is choosing to not see the facts? sck

Lastly, in terms of the politics of this, some people see this issue as a threat. Others see it as an opportunity. With clear thinking, if one could identify the commonalities of our conditions and our oppressor - then it would seem rather obvious that African Americans and Mexican Americans have FAR more in common than anything that might realistically divide them. African Americans represent about 13% of the national population. Say the Latino commuinty represents about 14 or 15%. Grounded in our commonality, are we stronger together or apart? You do the math! bsm

With regard to previous alliances, who cares what has happened in the past? What does that have to do with the future? What had African America done politically for the Jews/Zionism prior to the CRM?

We can either think parochially or we can think strategically. It's up to us.


quote:
Again, this is no doubt falling on deaf ears, because you have no desire to see any point other than the one you are intent on making.


sck

quote:
I'll leave the big international group hug singing of Kumbaya to you. sck


We're not playing checkers here, we're playing chess. You can continue to focus on one piece at a time - one move at a time - while others, like Farrakhan, see the bigger picture of reality and opportunity and proceed accordingly.
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quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I think some of us would do well to realize that the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend. Roll Eyes


Are you really suggesting that you can't see the connectivity here? The very same "enemy" is harming both of us. Do you dispute this? Who is harming us? Who is exploiting them?

Beyond that - how is the enemy of our enemy NOT our friend? Please explain that.

yeah
The logic espoused here instantly took me back the the famous poem attributed to Martin Niemöller in World War II.

When they came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.


I can't believe how AA's are falling for this anti-immigrant rhetoric and particularly the language of citizenship. The same people that brought our ancestors over here in chains, are the same ones who stole land from the people we want to now label illegal. We have not been citizens that long, and with but the stroke of the a pen held by the hand of the wrong person, that status can be taken away. For most of this countries history, we weren't even deemed human beings. Remember Dred Scott? Remember, a black man having no rights that a white man was bound to respect? The Voting Rights act is just forty years old.

As far as I am concerned, the struggle for justice is my struggle as a black man. Period. If I ever find myself working to deny or exclude the rights of others, then what separates me from the oppressor?
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
quote:
If I ever find myself working to deny or exclude the rights of others, then what separates me from the oppressor?


Maybe I'm wrong; but I don't see FUBU thinking as "working to deny or exclude."

If it means only doing that which is in my (our) interest, then I believe that one can easily find themselves being complicit in the oppression of others.

It is also the question of who is "us." Does the "us" include GLBT people of African ancestry? What about Afro-Latino's (Mexican, Salvadoran, Guatamalean, Nicaraguan, Panamanean, etc)? If not, why not? If so, what is the basis?
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

Maybe I'm wrong; but I don't see FUBU thinking as "working to deny or exclude."


Agree 100% We just have to take a much more strategic view of this. It IS in our interests to support the undocumented workers in this issue. Doing so and fighting to grant them citizenship immediately removes the downward pressure on wages and causes our mutual oppressor to ante up. Higher wages and the elimination of the current incentive that companies have to hire undocumented labor helps poor and working class African Americans all over this country. Beyond that, aligning with Mexican Americans gives African America a greater base of political power with which to fight for OUR interests. We support them on an issue and they support us. Coalition politics has nothing to do with abdicating control, and everything to do with expediency in getting shyt done!

Too much of African America is thinking like Kobe on this issue - that its got to be HIS show and his show alone. How many championships do you think he will win that way?
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quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:

Maybe I'm wrong; but I don't see FUBU thinking as "working to deny or exclude."


Agree 100% We just have to take a much more strategic view of this. It IS in our interests to support the undocumented workers in this issue. Doing so and fighting to grant them citizenship immediately removes the downward pressure on wages and causes our mutual oppressor to ante up. Higher wages and the elimination of the current incentive that companies have to hire undocumented labor helps poor and working class African Americans all over this country. Beyond that, aligning with Mexican Americans gives African America a greater base of political power with which to fight for OUR interests. We support them on an issue and they support us. Coalition politics has nothing to do with abdicating control, and everything to do with expediency in getting shyt done!

Too much of African America is thinking like Kobe on this issues - that its got to be HIS show and his show alone. How many championships do you think he will win that way?


agreed.I don't see why this is so difficult for people to understand. this is not a turf war.

it's to our benefit to force companies to stop exploiting labor. we need to help shine the light on companies that take advantage of cheap labor. This only helps us. we need to take away the incentive companies have to go after cheap labor.

Also, we need to face reality. The latino population will be if not already the largest group in the US. We need to build alliances with them, not be jealous of them.
Okay, MBM, maybe we're getting somewhere!

For my position, let me state unequivocally, that I am not in the least bit interested in assigning blame. I couldn't care less whose "fault" it is. And I do mean less. Assigning blame for this problem doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of a solution to it. So you point the finger at a bad guy ... and then what??

What I do care about, though, is that for every ancestor of which I am a descendant, whose same bloodline flows within me that were brought to this country in chains, suffered the indignities of slavery, built this country with their blood, sweat, lives and tears, endured Jim Crow and the denial of the recognition and basic human and civil right of being seen as a full-blooded, fully endowed citizen of this country in which their bones are still buried, I claim that right, now and today, for them and for myself ... and I will continue to want and fight for every entitlement thereof, for myself and for those that are coming behind me. That's #1.

#2 – As far as I'm concerned, this country/government is dropping the ball on providing what is entitled to it's citizens, considering America is supposed to be the wealthiest, most powerful country in the world. That goes for me and my people, in particular .... But to be fair, the same is true as to all Americans in general. It's not that I mind sharing, but clearly, there already isn't enough to go around! Eek And who do you think suffers most? We have always been and continue to be on the bottom rung of the citizenship totem pole. As the slices of pie get smaller, who is the first to get less or none?

As long as I see elderly Black (and poor) citizens who put in their time and their money into building this country stronger going without the basic services of electricity and water and housing and healthcare ... and as long as I see Black (and poor) military veterans being denied basic medical care and services, out in the street homeless after offering their lives to serve this country as citizens, as long as I see Black (and poor) children being forced to learn in substandard schools with out of date books ... and the unemployment rate for Black citizens remains at levels double digits over the national level .... All of which are being told there's no money available for to help them ... and I watch as millions of illegal immigrants (and I couldn't care less about what race or nationality they happen to be!) are receiving and taking advantage of these benefits and services, this is what I'm going to have a problem with.

Legalizing these millions of currently illegal immigrants with the stroke of a pen, is not going to change this situation for Black people ... and, in fact, any supposed benefit is purely speculative. They evoke the name of MLK, but how many of them evoke his policy of securing certain basic human and social rights for citizens of any race, creed or color? Where were these millions of people when Affirmative Action was under attack? How many of them are organizing to march to change the justice/incarceration laws and are putting out a call to having their gang members stop attacking ours in prison? I've seen no Mexican lobbies out to insure that New Orleans is built back up by the people it affected most ... no, instead, they are gratefully accepting the offer of providing cheaper labor which serves to infuse their own selves and communities with cash and resources ... doled out by our government with our tax dollars, no less!

And for the record, Mr. Greenspan's little declaration may have spoken for funds at the federal level, but the state and local budgets and economies are a whole different checkbook!! The Feds can't reimburse the states for monies spent on mandated 9-11 security laws ... how much do you think they're getting back for providing services to non-legal immigrants?

To this point and time, illegal immigration has not benefited me or Black people, in general. Nor have I been shown where it is probable to benefit me or us in the future. Their detriment to us, however, has been enumerated throughout this post. And the bottom line is that is what I care about. Laying blame is a lesson in futility as compared to enacting a solution to the problem created by illegal immigration.

Prehaps you don't see a problem with it, though. And that's cool. But, I'll bet that Vet that can't afford the medication he needs to fight the symptoms of disease created from his exposure to Agent Orange while serving in our military might, since money that could be going towards supplementing his medical care is being used to provide healthcare to someone who can't claim citizenship, and in many cases, can't even speak English. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

For my position, let me state unequivocally, that I am not in the least bit interested in assigning blame. I couldn't care less whose "fault" it is. And I do mean less. Assigning blame for this problem doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of a solution to it. So you point the finger at a bad guy ... and then what??


If you don't accurately identify the source of your problem, how can you reasonably expect to solve it? This is the crux of the problem. White Supremacy Inc. would have you focus your angst on Mexicans and away from those who get rich on exploiting both. Again, Mexicans have not set wages. Mexicans have not hired anyone. White Supremacy Inc. has. Without clarity on this point, whatever energy you have is misplaced. And that's the point.
quote:

What I do care about, though, is that for every ancestor of which I am a descendant, whose same bloodline flows within me that were brought to this country in chains, suffered the indignities of slavery, built this country with their blood, sweat, lives and tears, endured Jim Crow and the denial of the recognition and basic human and civil right of being seen as a full-blooded, fully endowed citizen of this country in which their bones are still buried, I claim that right, now and today, for them and for myself ... and I will continue to want and fight for every entitlement thereof, for myself and for those that are coming behind me. That's #1.


Fighting for our interests is what politics and advocacy is all about. Again, you just have to be able to define your interests broadly enough to include ALL activities that help you. Affirmative action in education won't persoanlly help me. I am no longer in a situation where I could take advantage of that. Nevertheless, I define my interests in a way that sees helping other African Americans with AA as also helping me. As a black man in America, I define my interests in a way that includes the elimination of discrimination to ALL people in this country. Moreover, my interests are served however I can build support to oppose those things that are counter to my achievement, objectives, and interests. Being strategic in creating alliances with groups who share interests helps me because it increases my influence and power in this country. Lastly, misdirecting angst toward groups who are similarly exploited is decidedly NOT in my interests as it strengthens and sustains my oppressor and wastes my precious energy on the wrong party - allowing White Supremacy Inc. to keep its foot on my neck.

quote:
As the slices of pie get smaller, who is the first to get less or none?


I guess it depends upon how you slice your pie. If the "have nots" could ever organize and aggregate their power then they would represent the CLEAR and overwhelming majority in this country. Things would change for poor and working class people. WSI would have us continue to think in parochial and myopic ways as opposed to realizing that economic affinity is probably the most fundamental one in America - not racial or ethnic.

quote:
As long as I see elderly Black (and poor) citizens who put in their time and their money into building this country stronger going without the basic services of electricity and water and housing and healthcare ... and as long as I see Black (and poor) military veterans being denied basic medical care and services, out in the street homeless after offering their lives to serve this country as citizens, as long as I see Black (and poor) children being forced to learn in substandard schools with out of date books ... and the unemployment rate for Black citizens remains at levels double digits over the national level


Mexicans have nothing to do with this.
quote:
Where were these millions of people when Affirmative Action was under attack?


Respectfully, this is the wrong question. Again, where was African America during WW2 and the Jewish fight for Israel? Did the fact that we didn't support them in any meaningful way prevent them from supporting us during the CRM? We've got to think forward and not back.


quote:
And for the record, Mr. Greenspan's little declaration may have spoken for funds at the federal level, but the state and local budgets and economies are a whole different checkbook!!


Undocumented workers probably pay an even higher share of local taxes since it comes from sales taxes and property taxes and excise taxes - which are consumption based.

quote:
To this point and time, illegal immigration has not benefited me or Black people, in general.


I hope you are not somehow thinking that I have been saying this. If so - then I haven't been writing very clearly.

AFRICAN AMERICA IS BEING EXPLOITED, OPPRESSED AND HARMED VIA THE ILLEGAL HIRING OF UNDOCUMENTED LABOR.

All I've been saying is that the undocumented workers are not our enemy or the ones exploiting us. It is the people who set the wages and make the hiring decisions. If we can understand this, then we can more effectively direct our angst and energy to solve the problem.
quote:
I've seen no Mexican lobbies out to insure that New Orleans is built back up by the people it affected most ... no, instead, they are gratefully accepting the offer of providing cheaper labor which serves to infuse their own selves and communities with cash and resources ... doled out by our government with our tax dollars, no less!


EbonyRose, We can't and shouldn't expect Mexican people to protest in our behalf, this we should do for ourselves. It's black people who need to stand and be counted. Once we get organized and "stand up" you'll then see others helping in our cause. To your point regarding cheaper labor please read what MBM has been saying. It's our government and corporations that's encouraging and allowing this to happen. These mexicans are poor people who's ultimate goal is to feed and take care of their families so of course they'll work for cheap wages.. We need to focus our energy on the real problem which is our goverment and businesses. Please look at who's running the government and the corporations and you'll find the crux of the problem.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Noah The African:

There are two willing participants being matched up. You have businesses looking for cheap labor and you have illegal immigrants coming here to do it. You would think that if things were so bad that they would be calling back to Mexico telling the people they not to come here and face this abuse...but the fact that they keep coming tells me the opposite.


The fact that working under crazy conditions and getting paid peanuts is better than things in Mexcio does not erase the fact that they are being exploited and in many cases abused. Either we believe in U.S. law and in general standards of how people should be treated in the world or we don't. Maybe we shouldn't care about people working in sweatshops. Screw it - it gets me cheaper clothes right?
td6

quote:
Another thing is that black people in Latin America are still second class citizens. I can't help but to believe that if we unified with their movement as soon as they achieved their objective and increased power....they would go back to looking at us like they do in their homelands and may join allegiance with white folks who look at us in the same way, in order to win favor with white folks. Also, look at the way Hispanics are attacking and threatening black folks in California.


Political alliances have NOTHING to do with natural "love and affection" between groups. It's ALL about power and achieving objectives. African Americans would - no doubt - have to be smart/strategic enough to successfully manage any relationship with Latinos to increase our influence in America.

Of course, it won't be easy. White supremacy never wants its victims to unite, now does it?

P.S. Do these three groups have any natural affinity for each other? Despite that they came together to accomplish an objective. When that objective was over - obviously - they went their separate ways.



I am just not feeling this alliance. I fully understand divide and conquer but I am not for actively fighting and standing with those who voluntarily choose to be exploited. Everything is relative. What we are conditioned to see as exploitation others are conditioned to see as an opportunity. Hence, by fighting against the exploitation of them you are also fighting to deny them the personal choice of pursuing opportunity. Just like many of us make the choice between the two evils of Republican or Democrat, many of these immigrants make the choice between exploitation at home vs. exploitation in the USA. Many pick the lesser of the two evils as they must choose one or the other in order to survive.

For me to support this I would essentially have to support the concept of open borders and free movement of workers into our country from other nations. The essential economic effect of that is that it will drive down the wages of American workers considerably as the laws of supply and demand sets price points for labor as over supplying labor reduces the value of that labor.

The real deal of what is going on is this. The business community in America is seeking cheap wages to increase profit margins. In regards to tradable/exportable goods, the tactics are to offshore jobs to countries with cheap labor. In regards to non tradable services and agricultural labor, the tactic is to use immigrant labor. The people who end up losing out are American workers who would have these jobs IF THEY PAID A DESCENT WAGE. This is NOT work that American won't do....its work that Americans won't do without commiserate pay.

For me there are packages, in the package deal for what Hispanics are rallying for, which I support, however, I don't support the composite. In other words, there are a lot of different individual issues embedded in this current immigration movement and I support some of them but not the package. The problem is that I don't get to itemize and pick and choose. Thus, I have to reject the package deal and alliance.
MBM ... I don't have time to comment on your post above right now (and I will, because I actually agree with what you said at the end! Smile), but I'd like to ask you just two quick questions, if I may:

#1 - Have you ever lived in a state that border's Mexico? If so, which one and for how long?

#2 - Please go out on a hypothetical limb with me for a moment .... do you believe that if illegal Mexican immigrants in this country today were denied the educational/medical/housing/social benefits and services that they are currently allowed to utilize ... would they continue to come here, stay here and work here under the same conditions they are living and working under now?
Confused
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

#1 - Have you ever lived in a state that border's Mexico? If so, which one and for how long?


I lived in San Diego for about 5 years.

quote:
#2 - Please go out on a hypothetical limb with me for a moment .... do you believe that if illegal Mexican immigrants in this country today were denied the educational/medical/housing/social benefits and services that they are currently allowed to utilize ... would they continue to come here, stay here and work here under the same conditions they are living and working under now?


Sure - to presume otherwise would suggest that they have those things at home - which I would bet they do not in consistent supply or quality. Beyond that, again - I would ask why do you think that incentive is in place? Whose interests does it serve? WSI!
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

To this point and time, illegal immigration has not benefited me or Black people, in general.


On the other hand, illegal immigration has benifitted my wife, her extended family, and even her entire neighborhood, considering that it was her who singlehandedly (at a cost of nearly 2000 US dollars, paid for by cleaning and washing dishes) brought telephone lines into her neighborhood so that she could call her family, decreasing tremendously the cost for others to hook up their phone service, who had only to pay for the last few feet into their house.

Now, the majority of people in her neighborhood have telephone service.

Yes, some black people definately do benifit from illegal immigration.
quote:
Originally posted by alonzo:
EbonyRose, We can't and shouldn't expect Mexican people to protest in our behalf, this we should do for ourselves. It's black people who need to stand and be counted. Once we get organized and "stand up" you'll then see others helping in our cause. To your point regarding cheaper labor please read what MBM has been saying. It's our government and corporations that's encouraging and allowing this to happen. These mexicans are poor people who's ultimate goal is to feed and take care of their families so of course they'll work for cheap wages.. We need to focus our energy on the real problem which is our goverment and businesses. Please look at who's running the government and the corporations and you'll find the crux of the problem.


alonzo ...

Yes, we can and we should expect just that AND it is something we need to do for ourselves as well. There is not one gain that we made during the Civil Rights Movement that is of exclusive benefit to African Americans. Our gain turns into everybody's gain, because that is the way the promise of "America" is intended to work. And, seemingly, Black folks have never had a problem with that.

People of other races are able to 1) come here, 2) enjoy freedoms, 3) protest freely, 4) enjoy a lesser degree of discrimination than where they come from, 5) live wherever they can afford to do so, etc., etc., because Black people stood up and fought for and sacrificed for and demanded all of those things from an oppresive government, that clearly cared for no one other than those that looked like them ... for hundreds of years.

The same government and corporations that are exploiting cheap Mexican labor have been stepping on the necks of our people since the dawn of this Republic. So, okay, no problem, I'll be mad at them for what they're doing to Mexicans ... but that "mad" will have to get in line behind the "mad" I already am for what they have done/are doing to African Americans!! I mean, it's not like this is some new tactic unleashed in this country ... solely aimed at the current situation of illegal immigration! I don't need a reason to be "mad at" or to "blame" this gov't or big business for their wrongdoings. I have hundreds of years worth of reasons backed up, already, thank you. Eek

Every race of non-white people owe their ability to live as freely as they do in large part to the sacrifices of mainly Black people that made it happen .... because, it has never been a matter of "This is America ... and here are your rights"!! Even though that's what's written in the very Constitution that governs this land. The fight is/was/always has been ours ... and as long as it continues, those currently enjoying and benefitting what we've accomplished so far, should have an obligation to stand with us and for us ... every step of the way. Roll Eyes
I heard a caller on C-Span use this analogy: There are people with homes much nicer than mine. Should I be allowed to simply go move into their home because it offers things that my home does not? Would I be trespassing illegally?

America is no different from a home. It the private properties of this nation and just like our homes...people come in by invitation and not by climbing through the window then demanding the right to stay in our home because they have made a bed in it and their home is a shack.

I am all for immigration, but not illegal immigration which gives businesses the opportunity to hire people below wage standards. If a business can pay two illegals at the same cost of One American, two illegals will gain a job while one American will lose out on one. Furthermore, were all the Hispanics when the issue of immigration dealt with the BLACK HAITIANS? The Hispanics in Florida were one of the main groups fighting to ship these black folks back to the island while fighting to keep "their people" here who did the same thing.

Black people should not allow ourselves to be played like this. Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice....shame on me.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Every race of non-white people owe their ability to live as freely as they do in large part to the sacrifices of mainly Black people that made it happen .... because, it has never been a matter of "This is America ... and here are your rights"!! Even though that's what's written in the very Constitution that governs this land. The fight is/was/always has been ours ... and as long as it continues, those currently enjoying and benefitting what we've accomplished so far, should have an obligation to stand with us and for us ... every step of the way. Roll Eyes

Now that's a Powerful Member Quote!

The ironic thing about that though, Ebony, is that White poeple also owe their ability to live as freely as they do to African Americans.
quote:
Yes, we can and we should expect just that AND it is something we need to do for ourselves as well. There is not one gain that we made during the Civil Rights Movement that is of exclusive benefit to African Americans. Our gain turns into everybody's gain, because that is the way the promise of "America" is intended to work. And, seemingly, Black folks have never had a problem with that.

People of other races are able to 1) come here, 2) enjoy freedoms, 3) protest freely, 4) enjoy a lesser degree of discrimination than where they come from, 5) live wherever they can afford to do so, etc., etc., because Black people stood up and fought for and sacrificed for and demanded all of those things from an oppresive government, that clearly cared for no one other than those that looked like them ... for hundreds of years.

The same government and corporations that are exploiting cheap Mexican labor have been stepping on the necks of our people since the dawn of this Republic. So, okay, no problem, I'll be mad at them for what they're doing to Mexicans ... but that "mad" will have to get in line behind the "mad" I already am for what they have done/are doing to African Americans!! I mean, it's not like this is some new tactic unleashed in this country ... solely aimed at the current situation of illegal immigration! I don't need a reason to be "mad at" or to "blame" this gov't or big business for their wrongdoings. I have hundreds of years worth of reasons backed up, already, thank you.

Every race of non-white people owe their ability to live as freely as they do in large part to the sacrifices of mainly Black people that made it happen .... because, it has never been a matter of "This is America ... and here are your rights"!! Even though that's what's written in the very Constitution that governs this land. The fight is/was/always has been ours ... and as long as it continues, those currently enjoying and benefitting what we've accomplished so far, should have an obligation to stand with us and for us ... every step of the way.

Ebonyrose----I don't disagree with anything you said except the first sentence. Unfortunately if you or any of us wait for someone else to stand in our behalf then you'll be waiting a long time. It's simply not going to happen and that's why I say we have to do it ourselves.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

Every race of non-white people owe their ability to live as freely as they do in large part to the sacrifices of mainly Black people that made it happen .... because, it has never been a matter of "This is America ... and here are your rights"!! Even though that's what's written in the very Constitution that governs this land. The fight is/was/always has been ours ... and as long as it continues, those currently enjoying and benefitting what we've accomplished so far, should have an obligation to stand with us and for us ... every step of the way. Roll Eyes



I agree. So then let's give Latinos an opportunity to support us. Coming out against issues that are absolutely integral - in the most acute way - to their very lives and security is a great way to invite their support. sck

Despite their growing numbers here, Latinos have yet to galvanize politically in a way that they no doubt will. If there is a lack of support previously for us its been because in general they haven't been organized, or in a position, to support us. Let's not push Latinos into the hands of white America and conservatives. nono
quote:
Despite their growing numbers here, Latinos have yet to galvanize politically in a way that they no doubt will. If there is a lack of support previously for us its been because in general they haven't been organized, or in a position, to support us.


You have clearly never lived in Miami. Quite organized and QUITE racist. sck

Other than that, I agree with everything you've said.

I'm so thankful to be the child of immigrants and not have this "America is MINE!! Everyone else needs to go home or jump through Whitey's hoops to stay here!" view of this country. Why on Earth would Mexicans join in a struggle with us when we are actively seeking to boot them out of this country or trying to deny them even the most basic necessities?? We're all on this land illegally.
alonzo ...

I didn't mean to intimate that we wait for anything or anyone! Smile It wasn't an "or" situation ... it was they should AND we should too.

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
I agree. So then let's give Latinos an opportunity to support us. Coming out against issues that are absolutely integral - in the most acute way - to their very lives and security is a great way to invite their support. sck


I don't have a problem with this, MBM. I have no problem with any alliance or coalition with any group of people that will produce a benefit for the Black community.

Hispanics have had ample opportunity to support us ... as I said before, Affirmative Action or the past two rigged elections or the Katrina incident are just a few examples. In fact, AA is an example of something that is highly beneficial to them as well, not just us.

I don't happen to see where illegal immigration fits into that bill, though. As a Black woman, nor as an American.

Frenchy ...

I guess it is easier for someone who was able to choose to come here and follow their dream of making a better life for themselves and their family to accept their role here and that of others like them in enjoying the benefits of someone else's sacrifice ... than it is for some of us who had no choice than to be here, had to fight for our acceptance and still cannot find respect for simply wanting a good and/or better life for ourselves and our families, in exchange for our sacrifice. But I really wouldn't know. sck
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
You're right, of course,


Indeed. girl

quote:
but I'm not sure Miami has much to do with the current immigration issue.


Well, there's a very large immigration issue in South Florida. Mexicans aren't the only people who come here. Miami Cubans are quite influential with regard to exactly who stays and who goes. They weild a great deal of political power. That's what I was referring to.
quote:
Frenchy ...

I guess it is easier for someone who was able to choose to come here and follow their dream of making a better life for themselves and their family to accept their role here and that of others like them in enjoying the benefits of someone else's sacrifice ... than it is for some of us who had no choice than to be here, had to fight for our acceptance and still cannot find respect for simply wanting a good and/or better life for ourselves and our families, in exchange for our sacrifice. But I really wouldn't know.


Every human being on this planet is enjoying the benfits of the sacrifices of those who came before us. It is not as if immigrants come to this country and immediately move into some kind of lush life. We've made and continue to make a great deal of contributions to African America and faced and face a great deal of odds not only from white people but also from Black people in this country. The White Man does not care if I was born in another country or if my family's been in the US for 10 generations. I don't get a pass. And neither does any other immigrant with brown skin.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
You're right, of course,


Indeed. girl

quote:
but I'm not sure Miami has much to do with the current immigration issue.


Well, there's a very large immigration issue in South Florida. Mexicans aren't the only people who come here. Miami Cubans are quite influential with regard to exactly who stays and who goes. They weild a great deal of political power. That's what I was referring to.


LOL!

I was just about to ask if it was Latinos who were so organized in Florida, or if it was Cubans.
Exactly, Frenchy!!! But every immigrant has the right to choose. Brown skinned or not, whether they enter illegally or not.

The difference between the immigrant and the African American is that you look back at your heritage and ancestors and the choices they made and how far they've come and how far they brought you and how far you're going with a different kind of pride than I do. It's no less as stong, but it is different.

I look back at my heritage and ancestors and there was no choice in coming here, no choice in building this land and this country to make our contribution to it, and no choice but to be ostracised and degraded and disenfranchised and all other untold horrors for their sacrifice.

So there's a difference that two people from such different experiences probably can't fully understand. I don't begrudge immigrants coming here and the work they do and the contributions they give and successes that they make for themselves. I'm all for the American Dream.

But the immigration policy in this country is unjust and unfair and broken. And I also just wish more of the immigrants that do come here, while they're showing their appreciation to the White man and his government for giving them their opportunity, they'd also be as if not more appreciative of us for making it happen the way that it has.
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
It is time to lay that mantle down. Why? It is because we must deal with the realities of our situation as Black Americans today. In our effort to be the arbiter of social justice for all, we have effectively eliminated our own progress as a group. In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished.


Black people are not merely interested in the securing the rights of immigrants when we hold the mantle of social injustice. And making such a statement demonstrates a severely limited understanding of the fight against global injustice. Black people hold this mantle because we know that combating WHITE SUPREMACY is a 24-hr., 365-day respoonsibility. Black people in America and throughout the diaspora would probably love just for ONE day to not have to think about combating social injustice. But because unlike Asians, Jews, and Hispanics, we continue to be the prime targets of social injustice, the racist condition of our world compels us to. No group on this planet is more hated, despised, overlooked, and abhored than Black people. Thus, we simply cannot afford to put this mantle down. If we did, it's likely to get bashed upside our heads.

Black Folks: It's Not Only Time to Pick Up the Mantle, Its Time To Hold It Higher. It's time to expect MORE from our world, MORE from American leaders, and MORE from our parents and children. And simply because some other minority does not combat social injustice on your behalf does not mean that you should give up the fight against social injustice. Whether the other group shows up to a rally or not, you are still Black and you are unfortunately STILL required to secure your right as a human being.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
It is time to lay that mantle down. Why? It is because we must deal with the realities of our situation as Black Americans today. In our effort to be the arbiter of social justice for all, we have effectively eliminated our own progress as a group. In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished.


Black people are not merely interested in the securing the rights of immigrants when we hold the mantle of social injustice. And making such a statement demonstrates a severely limited understanding of the fight against global injustice. Black people hold this mantle because we know that combating WHITE SUPREMACY is a 24-hr., 365 day respoonsibility. Black people in America and throughout the diaspora would probably love just for ONE day to not have to think about combating social injustice. But because unlike Asians, Jews, and Hispanics, we continue to be the prime targets of social injustice, the racist condition of our world compels us to. No group is hated, despised, overlooked, and more abhored than Black people. Thus, we simply cannot afford to put this mantle down. If we did, it's likely to get bashed upside our heads.

Black Folks: It's Not Only Time to Pick Up the Mantle, Its Time To Hold It Higher. It's time to expect MORE from our world, MORE from American leaders, and MORE from our parents and children.


yeah

I will add that if we lay down this mantle, things will simply get worse for everyone (us included) a lot faster...
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
It is time to lay that mantle down. Why? It is because we must deal with the realities of our situation as Black Americans today. In our effort to be the arbiter of social justice for all, we have effectively eliminated our own progress as a group. In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished.


Black people are not merely interested in the securing the rights of immigrants when we hold the mantle of social injustice. And making such a statement demonstrates a severely limited understanding of the fight against global injustice. Black people hold this mantle because we know that combating WHITE SUPREMACY is a 24-hr., 365 day respoonsibility. Black people in America and throughout the diaspora would probably love just for ONE day to not have to think about combating social injustice. But because unlike Asians, Jews, and Hispanics, we continue to be the prime targets of social injustice, the racist condition of our world compels us to. No group is hated, despised, overlooked, and more abhored than Black people. Thus, we simply cannot afford to put this mantle down. If we did, it's likely to get bashed upside our heads.

Black Folks: It's Not Only Time to Pick Up the Mantle, Its Time To Hold It Higher. It's time to expect MORE from our world, MORE from American leaders, and MORE from our parents and children.


yeah

I will add that if we lay down this mantle, things will simply get worse for everyone (us included) a lot faster...

yeah
MBM:

I think you are missing the point on this whole Issue. Basically speaking, every little chance Black Leaders get they want to line up supporting Hispanic Causes, but other than have one or two on the podum at a Black Gathering, when have you notices that Hispanics have ever supported any' Black Cause.

Did they March with Rev Al and Rev Jesse in New Orleans, or did they March with Other Blacks at any of the Marches on Washington or any place else? I don't think so.

I doubt if any of those people who participated in their "Illegal Immigrant" march the other day have ever participated in or supported any Black Issue or March ever. When Blacks offer support to those who don't have a history of supporting us, we look like fools.

Even though Black and Illegals are looking for work, these Companies who hire Illegals wouldn't hire Blacks anyway. Just look around you where all of this Urban Construction work is taking place, few Blacks are working on these Projects, and all the workers aren't Hispanics either. A Project near me has one Black out of about 40 or 50, and none are Hispanics. Not dark enough to notice.

These Illegals are unique because they lack Governmental Control, Tax Wise and every other way. These Businesses are riding a 'Cash Cow" that this Administration has sold them, and they aren't going to let it go.

Look at John McKane making a silly statement the other day about an american wouldn't work for $ 50 an hour. That is just one indication of how these Businesses have bought these people up, and for him to make a run for President he needs the Business and Hispanic support.

leart

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I think some of us would do well to realize that the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend. Roll Eyes


Are you really suggesting that you can't see the connectivity here? The very same "enemy" is harming both of us. Do you dispute this? Who is harming us? Who is exploiting them?

Beyond that - how is the enemy of our enemy NOT our friend? Please explain that.
quote:
Originally posted by leart:

Even though Black and Illegals are looking for work, these Companies who hire Illegals wouldn't hire Blacks anyway.


When my wife went looking for a job, they hired a black and an "illegal".

(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)


I appreciate your point... but history doesn't contain too many stories about people lynching "illegals"....

You did ask for the difference...
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)


I can appreciate you point too, Ricardomath. But as long as there is a way to be "legal" comparatively, comparatively, it's a proper adjective.
quote:
Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)


I appreciate your point... but history doesn't contain too many stories about people lynching "illegals"....

You did ask for the difference...


Well, we do have "minutemen" on the border...it's only a matter of time...

And then there's this...

quote:

Extremists advocate murder of immigrants, politicians


National pro-immigrant marches inspire calls for carnage from radical right

by Susy Buchanan and David Holthouse

Neo-Nazi radio host Hal Turner

March 30, 2006 -- Neo-Nazis and anti-immigration extremists responded to a highly publicized wave of immigration reform demonstrations in major U.S. cities with open calls for terrorist violence, including truck bombs, machine gun attacks, and assassinations of U.S. senators and members of Congress.
"All of you who think there's a peaceful solution to these invaders are wrong. We're going to have to start killing these people," neo-Nazi radio host Hal Turner posted to his website the day after 500,000 immigrant rights activists marched through downtown Los Angeles.

"I advocate using extreme violence against illegal aliens. Clean your guns. Have plenty of ammunition. Find out where the largest gathering of illegal aliens will be near you. Go to the area well in advance, scope out several places to position yourself and then do what has to be done."

Turner linked the post to a website titled "Ka-Fucking-Boom!" that provides detailed instructions on constructing pipe bombs, ammonium nitrate "fertilizer bombs," car bombs, chlorine gas bombs, and dozens of other homemade explosive devices.

"We are headed for civil war, folks. Are you ready?" wrote a neo-Nazi using the pseudonym "Mr. 88" (88 is movement shorthand for "Heil Hitler") in a post on the white supremacist website Stormfront. "We have to start killing in massive numbers so that the savages of the world have fear of the almighty white man again! Killing is the only way to cure these ills!"

Elected officials were also targeted for death after a U.S. Senate panel backed President Bush's guest worker plan on March 27, the Monday following a weekend of pro-immigrant street demonstrations including 20,000 people in Phoenix, 50,000 in Denver, and 50,000 in Detroit.

Hal Turner promoted a survey on his website that asked, "What method of 'communication' would be best understood by members of the United States House of Representatives and The United States Senate so they know not to give ILLEGAL ALIENS Amnesty?"

The response options included, "Pull a fire alarm in the U.S. Capitol and Machine gun them to death as they evacuate?" (earning 22 percent of more than 1,000 votes, according to Turner); "Fire Bomb their District Offices as a warning; then their private homes if they go ahead with the plan?" (31 percent); and "Park several Timothy McVeigh type truck bombs next to the House and Senate Office Buildings and Detonate them?" (13 percent).

Members of the California-based, anti-immigration hate group Save Our State added their voices to the bloodthirsty chorus. "I see people with vans driving by, gunning them down on street corners, and leaving them to feed the buzzards and worms," wrote Save Our State activist "Cazamigrante" ("Migrant hunter"). Another Save Our State member posted, "Just a friendly reminder: There is no Brady Bill on bow and arrow. There is also no report or muzzle flash to give away position."

Jim Gilchrist, co-founder of the "citizens border patrol" Minuteman Project, stopped just short of calling for his followers to pick up their guns.

"I'm not going to promote insurrection, but if it happens, it will be on the conscience of the members of Congress who are doing this," he told the Orange County Register ."I will not promote violence in resolving this, but I will not stop others who might pursue that."

The same day the Senate panel voted, more than 40,000 Los Angeles high school students walked out of classes to protest a bill in Congress that would make it a felony to be in the country illegally (it's now a federal infraction). After several hundred of the students blocked a freeway, anti-immigration hardliners posting to the "Close Borders" Yahoo user group advocated killing the young protesters by running them over with cars. "If I was on that freeway, there would be some flattened kids," wrote "GoHomeIllegals."

Another Close Borders user wrote, "When violent responses occur, the amount of support they receive will amaze you. Furthermore, when people see how utterly unable to stop them the government is, it will incite further acts, and so, until it snowballs into a full-scale shooting war. Picture every major city within 500 miles of Mexico turned into Beirut in 1983. All that's missing is the spark, and it won't be long in coming."

Extremists of many stripes interpreted the widely broadcast images of hundreds of thousands of mostly Latino demonstrators marching in the streets as unmistakable evidence that a long-awaited race war had finally begun.

"The bad news is many whites will die," wrote one neo-Nazi on Vanguard News Network. "It is imperative that you make proper connections NOW and form networks of like minded armed whites to defend yourselves... It will be grand. More exciting then the Zombie flicks. If you have a good defense line and lots of ammo the carnage will be orgasmic."

Susy Buchanan and David Holthouse are writers for the Intelligence Report.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=49
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)


I can appreciate you point too, Ricardomath. But as long as there is a way to be "legal" comparatively, comparatively, it's a proper adjective.


In the post preceeding mine, the epithet "illegal" was used as a noun.

I'll believe that such use (whether used as an adjective or a noun) is legitimate when I start hearing it used habitually to refer to people who have let their parking meter expire.
Ricardo:

There are many Blacks in these Urban Communities who can't even get into the "Labors Union", but now the Firms who are doing the work are able to hire non-Union Illegals, but they never hired Black before.

By the way, an Illegal is one who is in violation of the Law. I don't use the "N" word to refer to anything, but I have never heard of it being used in the same way as a Law Violator. I think you are confused, and you might be trying to compare two entirely different things.

When a person cross the Border without authorization they are in violation of U.S. Law and subject to arrest and prosecution. Since the Law Violator has not jet been arrested, you would have to consider him/her a person who has crossed the Border illegally, or an illegal. Does that make sense? Maybe not, but i'll just have to move on.

leart
In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished.---Dell Gines

I agree.

In fact, I believe we have lost the ability to be insulted, as in offended, by the treatment delivered openly to us.

Our lack of response says, in effect, it is okay.

In fact, not only do we say it is okay, we reinforce that with the sritten request to do it to us some more.


'How is the enemy of my enemy not my friend?---MBM

Clearly, the United States is the enemy.

There is no group that is standing up for the United States is doing to us.

Dell Gines is absolutely right.

In this case, there is no enemy of our enemy.

Where is the friend?


PEACE

Jim Chester
I'm for legal immigration indeed and the USA should not be criticized for wanting to control the flow of immigrants into the country. Of course big business want to keep things the same because once those of illegal status become legal more responsibility is required from those who hire cheap labor. No health insurance, lower wages, fire at will, treat them like slave labor. I was listening to a talk show on home building and remodeling and the host of the show insist that we keep things as they are so builders can make better profits from illegal aliens and consumers can have lower prices.

How many blacks have been denied jobs because they cannot speak Spanish? Many I tell you my sister in-law have been turned down a few times because she can't speak Spanish. She works in the medical insurance billing field. This new obstacle for many blacks finding jobs is there only because of the huge influx of illegal aliens from the south.

Also many of illegal immigrant kids are mainstreamed into our public schools where majority blacks attend which also makes it more difficult for black kids to get a decent education because so many in the class are poor English speakers and readers therefore the teacher has to teach from the base of the lowest denominator. Which is why I'm for school voulchers 100%!

60% of black males do not graduate from High school and for black females is not much better, the influx of non to poor English speakers works against black kids.

Blacks should not back their causes we should stand up and speak up for ourselves. Hispanics have a tradition of being very racist in their own countries even to the point that black people living in their countries will not admit they are of African heritage, blackness in many Hispanic countries is a shame not a virtue.

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