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quote:
Frenchy ...

I guess it is easier for someone who was able to choose to come here and follow their dream of making a better life for themselves and their family to accept their role here and that of others like them in enjoying the benefits of someone else's sacrifice ... than it is for some of us who had no choice than to be here, had to fight for our acceptance and still cannot find respect for simply wanting a good and/or better life for ourselves and our families, in exchange for our sacrifice. But I really wouldn't know.


Every human being on this planet is enjoying the benfits of the sacrifices of those who came before us. It is not as if immigrants come to this country and immediately move into some kind of lush life. We've made and continue to make a great deal of contributions to African America and faced and face a great deal of odds not only from white people but also from Black people in this country. The White Man does not care if I was born in another country or if my family's been in the US for 10 generations. I don't get a pass. And neither does any other immigrant with brown skin.
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Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
You're right, of course,


Indeed. girl

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but I'm not sure Miami has much to do with the current immigration issue.


Well, there's a very large immigration issue in South Florida. Mexicans aren't the only people who come here. Miami Cubans are quite influential with regard to exactly who stays and who goes. They weild a great deal of political power. That's what I was referring to.


LOL!

I was just about to ask if it was Latinos who were so organized in Florida, or if it was Cubans.
Exactly, Frenchy!!! But every immigrant has the right to choose. Brown skinned or not, whether they enter illegally or not.

The difference between the immigrant and the African American is that you look back at your heritage and ancestors and the choices they made and how far they've come and how far they brought you and how far you're going with a different kind of pride than I do. It's no less as stong, but it is different.

I look back at my heritage and ancestors and there was no choice in coming here, no choice in building this land and this country to make our contribution to it, and no choice but to be ostracised and degraded and disenfranchised and all other untold horrors for their sacrifice.

So there's a difference that two people from such different experiences probably can't fully understand. I don't begrudge immigrants coming here and the work they do and the contributions they give and successes that they make for themselves. I'm all for the American Dream.

But the immigration policy in this country is unjust and unfair and broken. And I also just wish more of the immigrants that do come here, while they're showing their appreciation to the White man and his government for giving them their opportunity, they'd also be as if not more appreciative of us for making it happen the way that it has.
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
It is time to lay that mantle down. Why? It is because we must deal with the realities of our situation as Black Americans today. In our effort to be the arbiter of social justice for all, we have effectively eliminated our own progress as a group. In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished.


Black people are not merely interested in the securing the rights of immigrants when we hold the mantle of social injustice. And making such a statement demonstrates a severely limited understanding of the fight against global injustice. Black people hold this mantle because we know that combating WHITE SUPREMACY is a 24-hr., 365-day respoonsibility. Black people in America and throughout the diaspora would probably love just for ONE day to not have to think about combating social injustice. But because unlike Asians, Jews, and Hispanics, we continue to be the prime targets of social injustice, the racist condition of our world compels us to. No group on this planet is more hated, despised, overlooked, and abhored than Black people. Thus, we simply cannot afford to put this mantle down. If we did, it's likely to get bashed upside our heads.

Black Folks: It's Not Only Time to Pick Up the Mantle, Its Time To Hold It Higher. It's time to expect MORE from our world, MORE from American leaders, and MORE from our parents and children. And simply because some other minority does not combat social injustice on your behalf does not mean that you should give up the fight against social injustice. Whether the other group shows up to a rally or not, you are still Black and you are unfortunately STILL required to secure your right as a human being.
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quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
quote:
Originally posted by Dell Gines:
It is time to lay that mantle down. Why? It is because we must deal with the realities of our situation as Black Americans today. In our effort to be the arbiter of social justice for all, we have effectively eliminated our own progress as a group. In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished.


Black people are not merely interested in the securing the rights of immigrants when we hold the mantle of social injustice. And making such a statement demonstrates a severely limited understanding of the fight against global injustice. Black people hold this mantle because we know that combating WHITE SUPREMACY is a 24-hr., 365 day respoonsibility. Black people in America and throughout the diaspora would probably love just for ONE day to not have to think about combating social injustice. But because unlike Asians, Jews, and Hispanics, we continue to be the prime targets of social injustice, the racist condition of our world compels us to. No group is hated, despised, overlooked, and more abhored than Black people. Thus, we simply cannot afford to put this mantle down. If we did, it's likely to get bashed upside our heads.

Black Folks: It's Not Only Time to Pick Up the Mantle, Its Time To Hold It Higher. It's time to expect MORE from our world, MORE from American leaders, and MORE from our parents and children.


yeah

I will add that if we lay down this mantle, things will simply get worse for everyone (us included) a lot faster...
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Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:
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Originally posted by Dell Gines:
It is time to lay that mantle down. Why? It is because we must deal with the realities of our situation as Black Americans today. In our effort to be the arbiter of social justice for all, we have effectively eliminated our own progress as a group. In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished.


Black people are not merely interested in the securing the rights of immigrants when we hold the mantle of social injustice. And making such a statement demonstrates a severely limited understanding of the fight against global injustice. Black people hold this mantle because we know that combating WHITE SUPREMACY is a 24-hr., 365 day respoonsibility. Black people in America and throughout the diaspora would probably love just for ONE day to not have to think about combating social injustice. But because unlike Asians, Jews, and Hispanics, we continue to be the prime targets of social injustice, the racist condition of our world compels us to. No group is hated, despised, overlooked, and more abhored than Black people. Thus, we simply cannot afford to put this mantle down. If we did, it's likely to get bashed upside our heads.

Black Folks: It's Not Only Time to Pick Up the Mantle, Its Time To Hold It Higher. It's time to expect MORE from our world, MORE from American leaders, and MORE from our parents and children.


yeah

I will add that if we lay down this mantle, things will simply get worse for everyone (us included) a lot faster...

yeah
MBM:

I think you are missing the point on this whole Issue. Basically speaking, every little chance Black Leaders get they want to line up supporting Hispanic Causes, but other than have one or two on the podum at a Black Gathering, when have you notices that Hispanics have ever supported any' Black Cause.

Did they March with Rev Al and Rev Jesse in New Orleans, or did they March with Other Blacks at any of the Marches on Washington or any place else? I don't think so.

I doubt if any of those people who participated in their "Illegal Immigrant" march the other day have ever participated in or supported any Black Issue or March ever. When Blacks offer support to those who don't have a history of supporting us, we look like fools.

Even though Black and Illegals are looking for work, these Companies who hire Illegals wouldn't hire Blacks anyway. Just look around you where all of this Urban Construction work is taking place, few Blacks are working on these Projects, and all the workers aren't Hispanics either. A Project near me has one Black out of about 40 or 50, and none are Hispanics. Not dark enough to notice.

These Illegals are unique because they lack Governmental Control, Tax Wise and every other way. These Businesses are riding a 'Cash Cow" that this Administration has sold them, and they aren't going to let it go.

Look at John McKane making a silly statement the other day about an american wouldn't work for $ 50 an hour. That is just one indication of how these Businesses have bought these people up, and for him to make a run for President he needs the Business and Hispanic support.

leart

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Originally posted by MBM:
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Originally posted by EbonyRose:

I think some of us would do well to realize that the enemy of our enemy is not necessarily our friend. Roll Eyes


Are you really suggesting that you can't see the connectivity here? The very same "enemy" is harming both of us. Do you dispute this? Who is harming us? Who is exploiting them?

Beyond that - how is the enemy of our enemy NOT our friend? Please explain that.
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Originally posted by leart:

Even though Black and Illegals are looking for work, these Companies who hire Illegals wouldn't hire Blacks anyway.


When my wife went looking for a job, they hired a black and an "illegal".

(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)


I appreciate your point... but history doesn't contain too many stories about people lynching "illegals"....

You did ask for the difference...
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)


I can appreciate you point too, Ricardomath. But as long as there is a way to be "legal" comparatively, comparatively, it's a proper adjective.
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Originally posted by HonestBrother:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)


I appreciate your point... but history doesn't contain too many stories about people lynching "illegals"....

You did ask for the difference...


Well, we do have "minutemen" on the border...it's only a matter of time...

And then there's this...

quote:

Extremists advocate murder of immigrants, politicians


National pro-immigrant marches inspire calls for carnage from radical right

by Susy Buchanan and David Holthouse

Neo-Nazi radio host Hal Turner

March 30, 2006 -- Neo-Nazis and anti-immigration extremists responded to a highly publicized wave of immigration reform demonstrations in major U.S. cities with open calls for terrorist violence, including truck bombs, machine gun attacks, and assassinations of U.S. senators and members of Congress.
"All of you who think there's a peaceful solution to these invaders are wrong. We're going to have to start killing these people," neo-Nazi radio host Hal Turner posted to his website the day after 500,000 immigrant rights activists marched through downtown Los Angeles.

"I advocate using extreme violence against illegal aliens. Clean your guns. Have plenty of ammunition. Find out where the largest gathering of illegal aliens will be near you. Go to the area well in advance, scope out several places to position yourself and then do what has to be done."

Turner linked the post to a website titled "Ka-Fucking-Boom!" that provides detailed instructions on constructing pipe bombs, ammonium nitrate "fertilizer bombs," car bombs, chlorine gas bombs, and dozens of other homemade explosive devices.

"We are headed for civil war, folks. Are you ready?" wrote a neo-Nazi using the pseudonym "Mr. 88" (88 is movement shorthand for "Heil Hitler") in a post on the white supremacist website Stormfront. "We have to start killing in massive numbers so that the savages of the world have fear of the almighty white man again! Killing is the only way to cure these ills!"

Elected officials were also targeted for death after a U.S. Senate panel backed President Bush's guest worker plan on March 27, the Monday following a weekend of pro-immigrant street demonstrations including 20,000 people in Phoenix, 50,000 in Denver, and 50,000 in Detroit.

Hal Turner promoted a survey on his website that asked, "What method of 'communication' would be best understood by members of the United States House of Representatives and The United States Senate so they know not to give ILLEGAL ALIENS Amnesty?"

The response options included, "Pull a fire alarm in the U.S. Capitol and Machine gun them to death as they evacuate?" (earning 22 percent of more than 1,000 votes, according to Turner); "Fire Bomb their District Offices as a warning; then their private homes if they go ahead with the plan?" (31 percent); and "Park several Timothy McVeigh type truck bombs next to the House and Senate Office Buildings and Detonate them?" (13 percent).

Members of the California-based, anti-immigration hate group Save Our State added their voices to the bloodthirsty chorus. "I see people with vans driving by, gunning them down on street corners, and leaving them to feed the buzzards and worms," wrote Save Our State activist "Cazamigrante" ("Migrant hunter"). Another Save Our State member posted, "Just a friendly reminder: There is no Brady Bill on bow and arrow. There is also no report or muzzle flash to give away position."

Jim Gilchrist, co-founder of the "citizens border patrol" Minuteman Project, stopped just short of calling for his followers to pick up their guns.

"I'm not going to promote insurrection, but if it happens, it will be on the conscience of the members of Congress who are doing this," he told the Orange County Register ."I will not promote violence in resolving this, but I will not stop others who might pursue that."

The same day the Senate panel voted, more than 40,000 Los Angeles high school students walked out of classes to protest a bill in Congress that would make it a felony to be in the country illegally (it's now a federal infraction). After several hundred of the students blocked a freeway, anti-immigration hardliners posting to the "Close Borders" Yahoo user group advocated killing the young protesters by running them over with cars. "If I was on that freeway, there would be some flattened kids," wrote "GoHomeIllegals."

Another Close Borders user wrote, "When violent responses occur, the amount of support they receive will amaze you. Furthermore, when people see how utterly unable to stop them the government is, it will incite further acts, and so, until it snowballs into a full-scale shooting war. Picture every major city within 500 miles of Mexico turned into Beirut in 1983. All that's missing is the spark, and it won't be long in coming."

Extremists of many stripes interpreted the widely broadcast images of hundreds of thousands of mostly Latino demonstrators marching in the streets as unmistakable evidence that a long-awaited race war had finally begun.

"The bad news is many whites will die," wrote one neo-Nazi on Vanguard News Network. "It is imperative that you make proper connections NOW and form networks of like minded armed whites to defend yourselves... It will be grand. More exciting then the Zombie flicks. If you have a good defense line and lots of ammo the carnage will be orgasmic."

Susy Buchanan and David Holthouse are writers for the Intelligence Report.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/news/item.jsp?aid=49
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Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
(Really--don't you get tired of referring to your fellow human beings with the epithet "illegal"? How is using this epithet any different than referring to people with the N-word?)


I can appreciate you point too, Ricardomath. But as long as there is a way to be "legal" comparatively, comparatively, it's a proper adjective.


In the post preceeding mine, the epithet "illegal" was used as a noun.

I'll believe that such use (whether used as an adjective or a noun) is legitimate when I start hearing it used habitually to refer to people who have let their parking meter expire.
Ricardo:

There are many Blacks in these Urban Communities who can't even get into the "Labors Union", but now the Firms who are doing the work are able to hire non-Union Illegals, but they never hired Black before.

By the way, an Illegal is one who is in violation of the Law. I don't use the "N" word to refer to anything, but I have never heard of it being used in the same way as a Law Violator. I think you are confused, and you might be trying to compare two entirely different things.

When a person cross the Border without authorization they are in violation of U.S. Law and subject to arrest and prosecution. Since the Law Violator has not jet been arrested, you would have to consider him/her a person who has crossed the Border illegally, or an illegal. Does that make sense? Maybe not, but i'll just have to move on.

leart
In our desire to ensure equality for everyone our effectiveness at creating equality for ourselves has diminished.---Dell Gines

I agree.

In fact, I believe we have lost the ability to be insulted, as in offended, by the treatment delivered openly to us.

Our lack of response says, in effect, it is okay.

In fact, not only do we say it is okay, we reinforce that with the sritten request to do it to us some more.


'How is the enemy of my enemy not my friend?---MBM

Clearly, the United States is the enemy.

There is no group that is standing up for the United States is doing to us.

Dell Gines is absolutely right.

In this case, there is no enemy of our enemy.

Where is the friend?


PEACE

Jim Chester
I'm for legal immigration indeed and the USA should not be criticized for wanting to control the flow of immigrants into the country. Of course big business want to keep things the same because once those of illegal status become legal more responsibility is required from those who hire cheap labor. No health insurance, lower wages, fire at will, treat them like slave labor. I was listening to a talk show on home building and remodeling and the host of the show insist that we keep things as they are so builders can make better profits from illegal aliens and consumers can have lower prices.

How many blacks have been denied jobs because they cannot speak Spanish? Many I tell you my sister in-law have been turned down a few times because she can't speak Spanish. She works in the medical insurance billing field. This new obstacle for many blacks finding jobs is there only because of the huge influx of illegal aliens from the south.

Also many of illegal immigrant kids are mainstreamed into our public schools where majority blacks attend which also makes it more difficult for black kids to get a decent education because so many in the class are poor English speakers and readers therefore the teacher has to teach from the base of the lowest denominator. Which is why I'm for school voulchers 100%!

60% of black males do not graduate from High school and for black females is not much better, the influx of non to poor English speakers works against black kids.

Blacks should not back their causes we should stand up and speak up for ourselves. Hispanics have a tradition of being very racist in their own countries even to the point that black people living in their countries will not admit they are of African heritage, blackness in many Hispanic countries is a shame not a virtue.

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