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Peace....

I want to be a member of a Nation which belongs to black people. I am an American by circumstance. I was born and raised within these shores. My agenda ios completely distinct from mostblacks who have labeled themselves "African American". I am a black Nationalist/Pan Africanist....

If I were of those who accept an american nationalit5y, I would be a black conservative. I am completely against the welfare mentality of blacks in America. I do not support social liberalism. I support free enterprise, and reject the idea that blacks must receive assistance from the government in order to prosper. I am in support of slave reparations simply because we are owed this, however, I am sure that it is completely counter progressive to beg for something which we will never recieve.

Black liberals have allowed every slimey and filthy cause to ride upon our struggle. Black democrats many church going find themselves aligned with gays and issues such as same sex marraiges. Black Liberals find themselves supporting welfare programs which historically have proven to be ineffective.

I am not a political conservative becasue I am not aligned with either position, however, if I was one of those who accepts an American identity, I would be a black republican.


Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Kai:

I am a black Nationalist/Pan Africanist....


quote:
. . . if I was one of those who accepts an American identity, I would be a black republican.



Respectfully, these two statements seem to be mutually exclusive. A political conservative in America is one who wishes to preserve the institutions, policies, and practices of the past. Those were the the very things which oppressed black people.

Being a 'black Republican' would seem to put you squarely in contradiction to the aims of Black Nationalism and Pan Africanism - which are - by definition - progressive, radical, and revolutionary objectives. If Republicanism/conservatism was, on its face, diametrically opposed to any effort for black folks to be free or to enjoy any rights or privileges within our nation - certainly it could not fathom measures to enable nation building or the global unity of our people.
Peace...

quote:
Respectfully, these two statements seem to be mutually exclusive. A political conservative in America is one who wishes to preserve the institutions, policies, and practices of the past. Those were the the very things which oppressed black people


I think this defintion of Conservatism is too narrow considering the fact that it was the Republican party which freed the slaves and made the promise of slave reparations. Conservbatism has it's progressive elements. What they wish to conserve is the core American values which has historically identifdied this nation.


As a black nationalist my view could be considered a third party perspective. I view the Conservative stance as the lesser of two evils. Liberalism has proven poisonous to the black community. We have been indoctrinated into the idea that if we beg long and hard enough we will receive the assitance we need to rise out of our misery. The conservative position offers no such solution thus leaving salvation in the hand of those who would save themselves. Basically there is a shjift is responsibility from the governemtn to the self. I would much rather support the idea ofd self determination than the wait and beg approach.

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Being a 'black Republican' would seem to put you squarely in contradiction to the aims of Black Nationalism and Pan Africanism - which are - by definition - progressive, radical, and revolutionary objectives. If Republicanism/conservatism was, on its face, diametrically opposed to any effort for black folks to be free or to enjoy any rights or privileges within our nation - certainly it could not fathom measures to enable nation building or the global unity of our people.


History will demonstrate that blacks were Republican party members until the administration of FDR. This administration is responsible for the emergence of the welfare mentality. While the black community suffered disproportionally during the depression, we were used to the idea that we had to take care of ourselves, and history will bear witness to the fact that we were planning movements which would have led quickly to our rise and liberation, examples being The Black Wall Street, and the Rosewood community.

When we were forced to do for ourselves we built thriving black communities...After we were convinced that there was a political solution within the democratic collectively, we became a subculture of slick beggars waiting for checks.

Once again I choose a third option which is my own nation, however if I were to choose between the two..I'll take the republican party



Kai
quote:
Originally posted by Kai:

I think this defintion of Conservatism is too narrow considering the fact that it was the Republican party which freed the slaves and made the promise of slave reparations.


The parties switched ideologies to garner power. As you probably know, conservative Southern Democrats left the party to protest their efforts to grant rights and opportunity to us. Despite whatever they called themselves, conservatives have ALWAYS been conservative and liberals have always been liberal.

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Conservbatism has it's progressive elements. What they wish to conserve is the core American values which has historically identifdied this nation.


By definition, conservatism cannot be progressive. If you have an example, I'd be interested in seeing it. "Values" is about social mores, not necessarily about politics. Karl Marx may have been personally conservative is now he conducted his life. That has no impact on political philosophy.


quote:
As a black nationalist my view could be considered a third party perspective. I view the Conservative stance as the lesser of two evils. Liberalism has proven poisonous to the black community.


And conservatism enslaved us and fought at every opportunity to literally prevent us from becoming considered full human beings in the eyes of the law. Liberalism may have its faults, but without it we would still be in chains my friend.

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We have been indoctrinated into the idea that if we beg long and hard enough we will receive the assitance we need to rise out of our misery.


Repsectfully, I think this is a lot of "spin". Tell me what black folks are sitting around waiting for the government to do something for them? Certainly not the folks in New Orleans!

I think it is foolish for African Americans to not seek redress to the government for legal protection and for our piece of the pie. We pay our taxes. Why shouldn't we receive a return on that investment?

quote:
The conservative position offers no such solution thus leaving salvation in the hand of those who would save themselves. Basically there is a shjift is responsibility from the governemtn to the self. I would much rather support the idea ofd self determination than the wait and beg approach.


Friend, I would ask you to thoughtfully consider your view of this. The BIGGEST group with their hand out to government are conservatives. Heard of Halliburton? Heard of Bush's effort to privatize social security? Heard about Bush's tax cuts? Heard about the "Fair Tax" movement out there? Heard about the multi-billions oil company subsidies? Heard about protectionism - where Bush has imposed tarrifs on foreign competition (i.e. against the Chinese garment industry)?

Conservatives view government as a tool of private interest - as something that enriches the few. Liberals view government as a vehicle of the public interest - as something that helps people. Conservatives have their hands out to government even more than liberals - since they traditionally have had greater access to those in power versus the "little guy" that progressivism has championed.

quote:
History will demonstrate that blacks were Republican party members until the administration of FDR.


C'mon - you know that the parties flipped the script. Conservatives have always been conservative and opposed to anything remotely smelling like granting rights and power to the little guy or to black folks. That Republicans and Democrats switched names is mere historical triviality. Conservatives have always been conservative.

quote:
While the black community suffered disproportionally during the depression, we were used to the idea that we had to take care of ourselves, and history will bear witness to the fact that we were planning movements which would have led quickly to our rise and liberation, examples being The Black Wall Street, and the Rosewood community.


And who do you think crushed those movements? CONSERVATIVES!!
quote:
Originally posted by Kai:
History will demonstrate that blacks were Republican party members until the administration of FDR. This administration is responsible for the emergence of the welfare mentality.


History will also show that this administration was responsible for putting the breaks on out of control capitalism (which is what led to the Great Depression) and dramatically expanding the middle class.

Hell, it can be argued that FDR created the "middle class"...
From a purely fiscal/monetary economic viewpoint, republican-conservatives tend to be hell on the aggregate economy. While the democrat-liberal side does indeed spend alot, the "common man" does at least get some of that money in the form of what is now deemed "entitlements" which goes back to FDR. Those entitlements enabled those "without" to have a chance to go above their current station. In fact the vast majority of our current "middle class" came from soldiers from WWII and the Korean War recieving the GI Bill, and other benefits thereby making the greater American community more educated, more productive, and therfore more affluent. Conservatives (the Barry Goldwater types not the modern ones we have today) wanted to cut govt spending damn near down to nothing and kill taxes. While killing taxes sounds like a good idea in theory, reality is quite different. Taxes is how most public education, infrastructure upkeep, military effectiveness and other things that keep America strong is paid for. This might sound wierd but I would rather pay higher taxes and see that everything around me is being improved than pay lower taxes and have inflation and poor public upkeep kick my ass! As per example the Clinton years vs. the current Bush years.
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While the democrat-liberal side does indeed spend alot, the "common man" does at least get some of that money in the form of what is now deemed "entitlements" which goes back to FDR.

I don't know if this is true.

Government transfer payments (what you call entitlements) is a Keynesian approach to correcting the instability inherent to the free market.
quote:
Those entitlements enabled those "without" to have a chance to go above their current station. In fact the vast majority of our current "middle class" came from soldiers from WWII and the Korean War recieving the GI Bill, and other benefits thereby making the greater American community more educated, more productive, and therfore more affluent.

I disagree.

Although the effect seems to be the creation of the middle class, transfer payments and programs initiated by the government are used to promote market stability and prevent capitalism from crashing. The examples you provided above (G.I. bills an housing grant money for returning soldiers) are transfer payments given for the express purpose of increasing and maintaining levels of consumer spending. And although a middle class was created, which is really a class of poor people working everyday and earning JUST ENOUGH to come back to work on the next day, the growth and continued stability of the business and wealthy class structures are the actual reasons why the "common man" gets some of Uncle Sam's change to spend.

It is all an illusion.
Peace....


quote:
The parties switched ideologies to garner power. As you probably know, conservative Southern Democrats left the party to protest their efforts to grant rights and opportunity to us. Despite whatever they called themselves, conservatives have ALWAYS been conservative and liberals have always been liberal.


I do not think that it was the liberalism of the Republican party which led to the abolition of slavery in the South. I believe that it was simple greed that led to the change. Lincoln had Real estate interests, and political interests which tied him to the movement. Quite simply, classical values led to the end of slavery. These classical values include pure capitalism. The supposed shift in ideology was a facade as we all know. In the end it was conservatism not liberalism which freed the slaves. Lincoln was looking out for himself, and his associates, prominent railroad barons.

Self interest....

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By definition, conservatism cannot be progressive. If you have an example, I'd be interested in seeing it. "Values" is about social mores, not necessarily about politics. Karl Marx may have been personally conservative is now he conducted his life. That has no impact on political philosophy.


A democratic civilization's politics is reflective of the moral stance of it's citizenry. The conservative position cannot be summed up to an aggregate of legislative pieces.
A conservative cannot expect a static existence, what they expect is a nation moving forward, yet keeping to a core set of "American" principles.

In truth the fight for civil rights did not require new laws, it required a new way of viewing human beings. If racism,and sexism were eradicated the old document would have sufficed without amendment.

And...as blacks we must come to grips with the fact that you cannot legislate racism out of existence...

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And conservatism enslaved us and fought at every opportunity to literally prevent us from becoming considered full human beings in the eyes of the law. Liberalism may have its faults, but without it we would still be in chains my friend.


I maintain my point that it was not an act of liberalism which ended slavery, it was conservatism. Lincloln wanted to conserve the Union...Civil liberties for blacks was no where in the real equation. Our struggle was exploited for other uses...When it became necessary we were freed, the idea is to force change not beg for it.

quote:
Repsectfully, I think this is a lot of "spin". Tell me what black folks are sitting around waiting for the government to do something for them? Certainly not the folks in New Orleans!



Oh gosh...We are all sitting around in one way or another...We are definitely in the handout line. We need free medical insurance, Family independance Agency assistance, FHA housing assistance, Affirmative action college admission assistance, affirmative action hiring assistance, SBA mionority business assistance, etc.

These prograqms are sought after by blacks on every level....We are always looking for our handout.

quote:
I think it is foolish for African Americans to not seek redress to the government for legal protection and for our piece of the pie. We pay our taxes. Why shouldn't we receive a return on that investment?



But that is the point...Once we accepted American status we became responsible for securing our own slice of the pie. No one else has come to America asking for someone to give them a piece of the American pie.

Paying taxes should not guarantee a permanent crutch for black people. We pay taxes for the same reason that everyone else pays which is to ensure the continuance and stability of the country.

Do we need special protection??? Do we need a separate set of rules due to our injuries dating back to slavery?? Personally I say no...Activismm should be limited to ensuring that everyone who is an American receive equal consideration by the courts...Thereafter get a lawyer and sue anyone who discriminates or is racist.

That is ofcourse if I viewed myself as an American in the same way as others do.

quote:
Friend, I would ask you to thoughtfully consider your view of this. The BIGGEST group with their hand out to government are conservatives. Heard of Halliburton? Heard of Bush's effort to privatize social security? Heard about Bush's tax cuts? Heard about the "Fair Tax" movement out there? Heard about the multi-billions oil company subsidies? Heard about protectionism - where Bush has imposed tarrifs on foreign competition (i.e. against the Chinese garment industry)?

Conservatives view government as a tool of private interest - as something that enriches the few. Liberals view government as a vehicle of the public interest - as something that helps people. Conservatives have their hands out to government even more than liberals - since they traditionally have had greater access to those in power versus the "little guy" that progressivism has championed.

Every administration, conservative, or liberal suffers the presence of cronies. This is a by product of the political game.

When we talk about handouts we aren't talking about corporations benefitting from lobbying efforts, we are speaking of legislation which requires the government to pay people for being impoverished. This help to continue the same since people get the idea that there is profit in being unemployed, and surrounded by children which they cannot afford to care for. We are also speaking of legislation which rewards underacheivers in business and academics.

Perhaps this stance seems harsh...it is...because we can do better than we have done under Affirmative action, and welfare...

There is no affirmative action on the football field, we dominate, on the basketball court, we dominate, i\on the Hip Hop stage, we dominate, we dominate everywhere we land when we do not allow others to weaken us with the idea that we need help. We want equal treatment undedr the law, we should compete for everything else or else we will be weaker, and more dependent than every other group on Earth...We will also never gain the respect that we desire....


quote:
C'mon - you know that the parties flipped the script. Conservatives have always been conservative and opposed to anything remotely smelling like granting rights and power to the little guy or to black folks. That Republicans and Democrats switched names is mere historical triviality. Conservatives have always been conservative.



Most blacks are religious, and social conservatives, however due to their political position they find themselves aligning with groups that they know they do not support behind closed doors. Most black wearing the name "Liberal" know that they do not wish to live in a place which promotes same sex marraige and abortion. Black people are religious people who want to obey God's law, which is why the religious right is beginning to appeal to the black church.

Blacks are very conservative in some areas...Liberalism is not our friend all the time...Most times it is like making a deal with the devil.

quote:
And who do you think crushed those movements? CONSERVATIVES!!


From what I understand both of the aforementioned communities were destroyed by mobs of angry whites who did not want to see blacks benefit from the American system. If the blacks were treated equally under the law, major lawsuits would have followed and the communities rebuilt even better on the next go round.

I don't think Clarence Thomas, Collin Powell, Condi rice, Thomas Sowell, Ward Connerly, etc. would want to see the return of Jim Crow...

equal treatment and equal opportunity under the law...Everything else is up for grabs...That's as fair as anyone can expect...

Personally I could care less about fitting in, or receiving benefite...I would love the chance to build for myself, in my own image without having to worry about how being my black self makes other people fee....But that is not the subject here.

Kai
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:

A political conservative in America is one who wishes to preserve the institutions, policies, and practices of the past. Those were the the very things which oppressed black people.


How often must you repeat a LIE MBM?

On a DAILY BASIS Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton MAKE REFERENCE TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION. The NAACP during the REAL Civil Rights Movements made use of the INSTITUTIONS that were set up within the government TO MAKE SOCIETAL CHANGE.

YET all you can bring to us is the SLIGHT OF HAND that the "Black Conservative" seeks to MAINTAIN THE CURRENT ORDER OF THINGS which suppress Black people.

THE BLACK CONSERVATIVE IS PRIMARILY THE OPPOSITION PARTY TO THE BLACK QUASI-SOCIALIST PROGRESSIVE FUNDAMENTALIST that dominates Black America and has lead us for 40 years, failing to TRANSFORM the Black community.

IF THE BLACK CONSERVATIVE is a puppet for White Liberals then MORE EVIDENCE can be brought about to show how the Black Quasi-Socialist Progressive Fundamentalist Has a friend in Jesus the Ted Kennedy-types as he lays down his quasi-socialist tracks.

One just has to take a step back and make note of the condition of our public schools, our public safety and our economic development WHEN WE ARE LEFT ON OUR OWN to see the GROSS INCOMPETENCE of those who are ON THE STAGE WITH A MIC IN THEIR HANDS focusing on what "the enemy " is doing rather than what THEY ARE DOING to transform the Black community.


http://www.newcoalition.org/

quote:
http://www.newcoalition.org/FAQArticle.cfm?faqId=28
Q:
What is Black Conservatism?


A: Respected and well-informed nonwhite spokespersons are increasingly taking up the challenge of bringing conservative and libertarian ideas to nonwhite audiences and bringing their own multicultural perspective to what has been a largely white social and political movement. These spokespersons include Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain, and others.

Conservative ideas are seldom embraced and advocated by nonwhites for the same reasons as motivate white conservatives and libertarians. Consequently, the multicultural perspective on economic and social policy is different from the white perspective, even if it endorses similar public policies.

Lee Walker, in a recently published book on black conservatives, wrote: "The word [conservative] is best used as an adjective, not a noun, for it seems to me that conservatism is best understood as a state of mind and type of character, a way of looking at the social order." Peter Eisenstadt, in his introduction to a book on black conservatism, makes a similar observation:

Rather than isolating black conservatism as a distinct and separate category, this volume tries to show the importance of conservative ideas within the diversity of opinion that has always been characteristic of African-American thought.


Conservative multiculturalism holds the truths of the Declaration of Independence apply to Americans regardless of the color of their skin or their ethnic background. But our message reflects our special concerns for economic independence and strong families, good character, our people's struggle for civil and economic freedoms, and a keen awareness of the barriers that still stand between us and our success.

Proponents of conservative multiculturalism believe:

* Racism in all its forms must be confronted vigorously, but its reality must not be used to excuse unacceptable behavior.

* Strong, intact families must be recognized as the most important element in building healthy and thriving communities.

* Individual responsibility and mutual accountability are the keys to personal success as well as community and spiritual success.

* Government's duty is to protect civil and economic liberties and remove barriers to social and economic mobility, not to compel integration or otherwise impose on people some elite's vision of how people should live together.

* Free markets and private enterprise are the surest and necessary route to better living standards for all groups, regardless of race or color.

* Politics is a less reliable route for success, since "majority rules" sacrifices the interests of minorities to majorities, and the instruments of government often fall under the control of the best organized interest groups, which tend not to include people of color.


Conservative multiculturalism contains messages that resonate with large majorities of nonwhites and whites alike. It does not deny the history or reality of racism, yet it rises above the class warfare rhetoric and victimology of many liberal nonwhite spokespersons. It offers solutions, not just criticism, to people who are trying to climb society's ladder to personal and economic success. It has deep roots in the black intellectual tradition.

While much more work needs to be done to spell out and then popularize conservative multiculturalism, it is already sufficiently conceived to serve as the content of an aggressive and long-overdue educational campaign. While many organizations must participate in this effort, one organization in particular has made it the central element of its existence: The New Coalition for Economic and Social Change.
We only need to take a look at the issue over MEXICAN IMMIGRATION into the United States to make note of the RESISTANCE TO CHANGE that is in place among many Black Americans who spit upon conservatism.

The line is that "conservatives" are resistant to change.....yet these people who oppose these HUMAN BEINGS seeking resources for their family hide behind LEGALITIES to register their concern. They know that the more Mexicans that come into the USA, the more competition at the lower end of the economic scale will squeeze Black people.

These same people who have for so long QUESTIONED THE VERY EXISTENCE OF THE UNITED STATES which was built on STOLEN LAND now all of a sudden "conserve up" and play the "Well they are not legal American citizens" card. The European that established this country were not either so NOOOOOW you accept the end state of his conquest when YOU HAVE SKIN IN THE GAME and a POTENTIAL LOSS?

Now you want to RESIST CHANGE (like the good ole Southern Racist) who wanted to protect his economic interests.)

So what are the likely responses I will get:
We are not hanging Mexicans or starting a Klan group against them.......NOT RELEVANT. You are STILL seeking to maintain your social and economic order.

THEY ARE NOT CITIZENS and Blacks are....in the Dred Scott decision Chief Justice Roger B. Taney said Black people are not citizens of the USA and never will be and then he rendered his famous words "the Black man has no rights that the White man need respect". He, like many of you masked the HUMANITY of the issue and instead allowed his legalizms and bigotry to cloud his judgement.

We can tune into the various debates over GENTRIFICATION in poor, Black community. Close your eyes and LISTEN!!! You will hear comments that are very similar to those spouted by RACIST WHITES when Blacks started to move into their communities or their schools. THESE BLACKS WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED 'CONSERVATIVES' resisting CHANGE though.

YOU ALL ARE VERY CONSERVATIVE WHEN IT COMES TO PROTECTING YOUR OWN.

The word "Conservative" is a catch-all, boogieman phrase that is used.
quote:
Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

THE BLACK CONSERVATIVE IS PRIMARILY THE OPPOSITION PARTY TO THE BLACK QUASI-SOCIALIST PROGRESSIVE FUNDAMENTALIST that dominates Black America and has lead us for 40 years, failing to TRANSFORM the Black community.



Okay... Well, please tell us WHO "lead us" prior to that 40 year period? And...
WHERE WERE THE BLACK CONSERVATIVES?

And I already highlighted how this newly found "New Coalition" is at odds with you, DEFERENCE MAN. They must be your own personal Opposition Party because, as I've noted, they believe in things that are IN OPPOSITION to your BS, DEFERENTIAL rhetoric.

  • Racism in all its forms must be confronted vigorously...
  • "majority rules" sacrifices the interests of minorities... [they] tend not to include people of color.


    Try again...
  • quote:
    Originally posted by Constructive Feedback:

    The word "Conservative" is a catch-all, boogieman phrase that is used.


    Being anti-immigration is a conservative position. Beyond that, the moment 11 million undocumented workers are brought under the protection of United States' labor laws and protections is the moment when the downward pressure on wages in America is immediately released and those at the minimum wage rate see a national boost in their earning power. To my eyes, that's a good thing for black folks!
    quote:
    the moment 11 million undocumented workers are brought under the protection of United States' labor laws and protections is the moment when the downward pressure on wages in America is immediately released and those at the minimum wage rate see a national boost in their earning power.


    But that's not what the Sean Hannity, Lou Dodson and Mike Savage are saying ... I'm sooooo confused. Confused Roll Eyes
    If america truly repented and allowed the natural genius in black people to rise, this country would be a much better place. But this is all theory and its not gonna happen. Better to focus on self help and God. I founded Do-For-Self Martial Arts which works with young children and adults on overcoming all obstacles in his or her path. We teach a total independent way of life. The true path of the MARTIAL ART. So some conservative ideas are good, some liberal ideas are good, but the labels are all a trick and a game. Both Kerry and Bush Yale Ive Leaguers are members of the Bilderbergs, skull and bones and Yale Elite , they both come from the same family . There is no difference. Dont be fooled.
    quote:
    Originally posted by Kai:
    Peace....

    I want to be a member of a Nation which belongs to black people. I am an American by circumstance. I was born and raised within these shores. My agenda ios completely distinct from mostblacks who have labeled themselves "African American". I am a black Nationalist/Pan Africanist....

    If I were of those who accept an american nationalit5y, I would be a black conservative. I am completely against the welfare mentality of blacks in America. I do not support social liberalism. I support free enterprise, and reject the idea that blacks must receive assistance from the government in order to prosper. I am in support of slave reparations simply because we are owed this, however, I am sure that it is completely counter progressive to beg for something which we will never recieve.

    Black liberals have allowed every slimey and filthy cause to ride upon our struggle. Black democrats many church going find themselves aligned with gays and issues such as same sex marraiges. Black Liberals find themselves supporting welfare programs which historically have proven to be ineffective.

    I am not a political conservative becasue I am not aligned with either position, however, if I was one of those who accepts an American identity, I would be a black republican.


    Kai


    I agree with you Kai.....

    but....

    free enterprise?????

    I would develop an economic structure for women centered around bartering (similar to what was done in Argentina)...... that supports the different seasons most women go through during their lifetime.....



    Peace,
    Virtue
    quote:
    I think this defintion of Conservatism is too narrow considering the fact that it was the Republican party which freed the slaves and made the promise of slave reparations. Conservbatism has it's progressive elements. What they wish to conserve is the core American values which has historically identifdied this nation.


    Kai you seem like a smart guy, but that statement is ludicrous. It does not take into consideration at all that the Democratic and Republican Parties have undergone monumental shifts in policy since the civil war. Lincolns Republican Party wouldn't recognize today's Republican Party. Ditto the Democrats of the 1800's vis-à-vis today's Dems'.

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