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Mark 10:23-25 NRSV ˜Then Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, " How hard it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!' And the disciples were perplexed at these words. But Jesus said to them again ˜Children, how hard it is to enter the kingdom of God! It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.' "

How is it possible, for a man to teach these words of his master, but not reflect them? Last night, I watched Bishop T.D. Jakes on ˜international TV' preaching before his large congregation. He was in prime style, strutting across the stage in his tailored suit and crisp shoes. Speaking with power and authority, his audience mesmerized, on the Prophet Elijah and how he resuscitated a child. Elijah puts each part of his body to the corresponding part of the dead child's body, after which the child's body "waxed warm".

If I remember correctly, Mr. Jakes was quite vivid in his description of the ˜putrefying' mouth that the Prophet had to put his mouth to, along with his legs, arms, and torso. Mr. Jakes began with the unshakable will of the mother who refused to be defeated, who ˜refused to let God take her child'. ˜He started it, He can fix it.', or very near those words. But our Prophet Elijah, apparently ignorant of the lady's selfish desire, prostrates himself over the dead child by command of His God, and thus obeying the will of *his* Master, and revives a despondent mother's son.

Bishop Jakes stands as a prominent example of everything Christianity has become in modern times. Mirriam-Webster defines ˜Bishop' as : "1 : one having spiritual or ecclesiastical supervision". On his website, the laudable praise of Jakes is pronounced: ˜In January, 1999, the New York Times named Bishop T.D. Jakes as "one of the top five evangelists most frequently cited by scholars, theologians, and evangelical leaders to step up the international pulpit behind the Rev. Billy Graham" while Time magazine featured Bishop Jakes on a September 2001 cover and named him "America's Best Preacher."
His congregation has over 28,000 members, and along with an extensive array of titles and duties from nonprofit CEO to singer/writer, to theater production; Bishop Jakes must be living the illustrious American Dream. On his website, and I quote "Often referred to as a "Shepherd to the Shattered," Bishop Jakes has made great strides in Dallas to help turn around the lives of the homeless, drug addicts, prostitutes, single mothers, and others in life-threatening circumstances."

How is it possible for a man to teach the poverty of Jesus, yet live the material existence against which he taught? A ˜Bishop' no less? Tasked with the ˜spiritual supervision' of his flock by guiding them in the words of Jesus, and serving as example of the great teacher himself. And be spoiled by the wealth of the world?



I began this post with a quote from the New Testament to put things into perspective, and Mr. Jakes website provided excellent information to support my conclusion. He calls his organization ˜The Potter's House', implying the poverty of his calling, but with an organization of its size, poverty is far from this House. And far, far from Bishop T. D. Jakes.

Mr. Jakes has made himself wealthy, teaching poverty to the rich and humility to the proud. He has made great strides to stand alone as the single most authoritative preacher ˜behind Billy Graham.' There is one greater than he? One more prominent and wealthy? Teaching ˜deny the world', yet completely wrapped up in it? What is more, Bishop Jakes' congregation represented the upper crust of the community, many dressed in the fashionable expense of their class. I didn't see a single homeless, drug addict, or otherwise ˜shattered' individual in the audience. Where were they? Behind the scenes?

I recognize the fact that Bishop Jakes is a community leader, his website says so, but I cannot fathom how a Christian leader of such magnitude can be the exact opposite of everything Christianity is reputed to be! A camel will in no wise be recognizable upon exiting a needle's eye; but wealth certainly marks the Bishop, how does he present himself as a member of the Kingdom of God? We cannot be talking about the ˜same' Kingdom Jesus taught. No rich man can enter it. Jesus himself was a pauper; having no place to lay his head, no possessions of his own, and explicitly taught those who would follow him to sell what they owned and give the money to the poor.

˜What does it profit a man, to gain the whole world, yet lose his only soul?' Bishop Jakes? You have gained the whole world. Against everything Jesus taught, against the notion that none of the wealthy would even come close to the Kingdom of God, and you teach that Kingdom, you represent the leaders of that Kingdom. But your wealth marks you as a wolf. A predator, devouring the very shattered individuals you claim to ˜Sheppard'.

What is your excuse? How do you manage to gain wealth and ignore the poverty around you? How do you find the time to manage your productive businesses and tend to the homeless? How do you stand to drive past the destitute daily in your expensive car? What will you do with it all when you die? The kingdom has eluded you. Jesus reveals you for what you are.

And your members, the millions of viewers on your satellite network, your colleagues; they aspire to be like you. But you are rich and renown. Wealthy and trendy, living lavishly, spending large sums of money without a second thought on yourself. Is this what Christianity has become? A song and dance for pay; the better your sing and dance the more money you make? When did the money become important?

How Mr. Jakes? How can you teach Jesus and miss the whole point of his message? How did you rise to such prominence in light of the sinful world's wealthy, in the exposed view of your Christian followers, and even *they* not take notice? There are copies, perfect examples, of you across the Christian religion. Wealthy men, teaching their poorer congregations, how Jesus made them rich, and will do the same thing for them.

Do you Christian believers read your bibles? Have you been blinded to the extravagance of wealthy Christians, and somehow become deaf to the teaching of Jesus?

Jesus taught against the very thing Christianity seems to have become. He taught against the Pharisees, against their false words and deeds in the public eye. He said ˜by their fruits you shall know them'.

Now they are identified. The wolves who have abused the sheep. The false prophets who have distorted the message of God for profit and pleasure; those who have taken advantage of the innocents, desiring the mercy of God, trusting in these leaders to tend to them honestly and faithfully. The Roman Church is identified, they are marked by their fruits. Their perverted lusts; teachers of the word, shepherds of the sheep. Liars and thieves. Workers of iniquity.

Who among the faithful will be cast away by the very God you worship on account of the leaders among you? You who have been blinded to the world, blind to the message of God you carry in your hand? Ignorant of the teachings of your faith, mislead by the very people you were taught to be wary of; will you claim innocence when God comes to judge the world for its sins? Will your material wealth, all that you should have long ago sold and gave away, defend you in the day of despair? Will it be Bishop Jakes' fault?

With the millions and millions of dollars the Christian wealthy possess, why do their sheep suffer? How are they gaining wealth, teaching the poverty of God? How can they beguile you into such complacency? How can you see the poverty and the suffering of those Jesus went to, and not see the contrast in those who claim to follow him and teach him?

The television has entire channels dedicated to these vampires, publicly preaching to their viewers for money. Men and Women obviously preaching their wealth and lavish lives, their cars and homes, teaching Jesus and his love for all of you, and draining your pockets of every dime they can get. Lying and stealing in the same breath, while their church members sit in ignorance.

God will not acquit the guilty. The world is corrupt and the world leaders are confessed believers. But they ignore the destitute; they walk upon the backs of those who must go without, while they carry too much for themselves. Preaching Jesus and his goodness, passing the injured along the way. They are too busy with the ˜message' to concern themselves. Too wealthy to pass his way.

The time for ignorance is over. You have believed in the prophecies of Israel all your lives, and now they are upon you. Jesus long ago condemned the wealth of the world, and God swore to destroy it long before Jesus spoke.

He also swore to gather the dispersed of Israel, and punish their enemies for their crimes against them. Who among you are Children of Israel, believers in the Law? Will you be redeemed by God? Or taken by the Jesus preachers? Will you gain the world or lose your soul, as they have?

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."

[This message was edited by soul_doctor73 on June 21, 2003 at 02:50 PM.]
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No reply means no deny.

This reminds me of someone earlier mentioning how he was surprised the local christians haven't called me to task about this. Previously, I spoke to the general beleiver. Now I specify a prominant individual of your faith as an example of Jesus' teaching, and no one touches it.

This is no game I play. I am not just randomly speaking out against christians as a run of the mill shuckster with a loud voice and nothing to say. You have heard me loudly, though you may not have listened.

There is a problem with your religion that you refuse to deal with. Since you have not faced it, I have brought it to your attention. It is a message and a warning I provide you. Ignore it at your own peril.

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
quote:
No reply means no deny.
Soul Doctored...

I tried to explain to you that you are
LIVING OFF-THE-WALL with your demogogic tirades. Maybe one of these days you will learn how to engage others in conversation or debate... Right now, You're Pissing In The Wind!

Nobody wants to here you rant endlessly about your psycho take on religion whether it has merit or not. You don't know how to talk to anyone and I'm just here to tell ya!

Now Close Your Yellow Dripping Mouth!
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
quote:
No reply means no deny.
Soul Doctored...

I tried to explain to you that you are
LIVING OFF-THE-WALL with your demogogic tirades. Maybe one of these days you will learn how to engage others in conversation or debate... Right now, You're Pissing In The Wind!

Nobody wants to here you rant endlessly about your psycho take on religion whether it has merit or not. You don't know how to talk to anyone and I'm just here to tell ya!

Now Close Your Yellow Dripping Mouth!


Don't turn this thread into a childish spat of yours. Act like a mature adult and speak as one.

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
Negrospiritual, when I first heard that name Creflo Dollar, I just knew that he was "ALL about the benjamins baby!" LOL

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Why attack T.D. Jakes?

why not Creflo Dollar or Benny Hinn who obviously revel in money grubbing?

Jakes seems a gifted teacher, sincere, and hardworking...


I attacked the whole of christianity. Jakes is merely a big fish among many.
If he was sincere, he wouldn't be living lavish.
If he was gifted, he would have sworn off materialism.
If he was anything less than hardworking, he would still be broke.

The little he has accomplished has vaulted his face to the forefront of recognition. And he does nothing with it but aquire wealth.Benny Hinn and that Dollar fool are obvious frauds, but even they are believed. Do you know why, Negrospiritual?

Because they are teaching the exact*same*thing. Same audience. Same ignorance.

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
quote:
Originally posted by soul_doctor73:

If he was sincere, he wouldn't be living lavish.
If he was gifted, he would have sworn off materialism.
If he was anything less than hardworking, he would still be broke.



Please explain. In your book one must pledge a vow of poverty to do good work and to serve God? BTW - someone like Jakes is also the CEO of a business. He makes lots of money. Why shouldn't he enjoy some of it?

Also - if he's selling something that people want, whether spirtually based or not, why shouldn't he sell it?



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Why attack T.D. Jakes?

why not Creflo Dollar or Benny Hinn who obviously revel in money grubbing?

Jakes seems a gifted teacher, sincere, and hardworking...


I may have to agree with you about Rev. Creflo "Cashflow" Dollar.

If you're a preacher and your last name is "Dollar," I'm really gonna be suspicious about his actions.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by soul_doctor73:

If he was sincere, he wouldn't be living lavish.
If he was gifted, he would have sworn off materialism.
If he was anything less than hardworking, he would still be broke.



Please explain. In your book one must pledge a vow of poverty to do good work and to serve God? BTW - someone like Jakes is also the CEO of a business. He makes lots of money. Why shouldn't he enjoy some of it?

Also - if he's selling something that people want, whether spirtually based or not, why shouldn't he sell it?



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.



Good questions MBM. I shall attempt to answer them as clearly as possible.

The point here is not the wealth specifically, but Jakes' use of it. Or lack thereof, as is the case here.
No matter how you pack it, no matter how you paint it, now matter how pretty it looks; the fact remains that personal wealth in extravagant amounts is frivolous. There is no personal need for satin sheets and weekly hairdos. There is no personal need for summer wardrobes and a new car every other year. There is no need for a house than can sleep fifty in comfort, for a family of five. No need. No excuse. It is Desire. It is Want. It is Self. The basic 'needs' have been met a hundred times over.

T.D. Jakes sees them. All of you see them. I see them. We all know about them. The poor and impoverished. The destitute and homeless. Those who exists outside of the normal aspect of daily work for pay. These exist in spite of the generosity of Mr Jakes. How is that possible? How is it possible that such a prominant, soul saving, rightous claiming, Jesus teaching, possesser of compassion sleep in wealth while others sleep in neglect?

How can he pass his eyes over those of his 'flock' and see them suffer with eyes dry? Why would he *want* to exist beyond his needs when he could help so many? So many he could make happy? So many he could help by deed and not just by empty words? All of you see them and you do the same thing. Some of you pause to help. Some of you give and provide and sacrafice. But how much is enough? When is it okay to buy that pretty Merc or shiny new rolly? How many can eat off the cost of the average 03 Merc or Rolex? Could a homeless be housed? Might a sick person be cured? Or some hopeless saved from despair? If the answer to these questions are ever 'yes', then the answer is 'never'. Not for a professed christian. One 'not of the world'.

This life is death in all its finest horror. But christianity has taught humanity well how to ignore it. They believe in their blood salvation. They believe that, by this, their afterlife is secured. But they ignore the plight of everyone else. I have been accused of 'hating', and I admit I do bear it. It sits opposite my compassion for the innocents, and it burns with the same intensity. But what do I 'hate'? I am sure that by my words you can determine what that is, but let me spell it out.

Liars, Thieves, and last but certainly not least, Ignorance. Preachers, Pastors, and Christians. Hate the sin, love the sinner. Christians need to wake up, preachers need to shut up, and pastors need to lock it up. They should all do the world a favor. Get out there and live it.

As for my 'book', no. It is not a vow of poverty that I promote, but selflessness. This is what christianity is supposed to be *founded* on. There are many examples of compassionate people who were selfless and did much more good for their fellowman than just speak to him. Words are empty. Actions speak louder. I have no need for millions of dollars, nor any desire for it. I would go without if it meant everyone would have the same thing I do. But I go without regardless. The choice is out of my hands. Not that I care, but how about those who do?

Have you ever seen the look of gratitude in the eyes of someone who was shame to ask? Or that of hope where there once was none? Ever share your peace with someone in silence? Merely by smiling and a gentle hand? It doesn't take single dime to do this for the people who need it. All the money in the world won't make a dying man smile or a crying child joyful. To them, it is meaningless. To the wealthy, it is life.

But the dying man, the crying child, and the wealthy is the same person. At different stages in his life. As a baby, he cares nothing for wealth. On his deathbead, it provides him no comfort. But during his life, he squanders the opportunity to do good with all that he owns and instead spends it on himself. Clothes, jewelry, cars, homes, material junk destined for the flames.

The material will burn, only the spiritual will remain. Christians are supposedly 'wholeheartedly' SPIRITUAL. The double standard is that they put themselves first, instead of their sheep. It is about laying up treasure in heaven, not aquiring it on earth. The wealth of christianity speaks one thing to me: selfishness. Materialism. The false pretenses of the Pharisees and scribes. Talking the talk, but incapable of walking it because of all their valuables. Their status in society. Their 'knowledge' of the Law. They were full of the pretense of righteousness, but their fruits marked them as hollow. Inwardly ravening wolves. Full of bleached bones.

Jakes teaches this. Yet he, and those like him, amass individual wealth as if it were a 'gift' from God. Above and beyond those they care for. I just have no personal desire for my own wealth in light of those who could use even the little I have. If I did have personal wealth, none of my family would be working to live by their own means. Not a single one of them. They would all share in my peace and my joy. If I had peace, I could not rest until all those I loved possessed the same.

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
That may be true that some may put themselves first, but didn't God also said that if a person didn't take care of his/her familty, then s/he is worse than an infidel?

We should help others in need, but that doesn't mean we ignore our responsibilities to our own families for the sake of others. Jakes isn't living in his mansion alone. He has his wife and kids living there, I'm sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
That may be true that some may put themselves first, but didn't God also said that if a person didn't take care of his/her familty, then s/he is worse than an infidel?

We should help others in need, but that doesn't mean we ignore our responsibilities to our own families for the sake of others. Jakes isn't living in his mansion alone. He has his wife and kids living there, I'm sure.


lol. I am sure you are correct. If you noticed though, I'm speaking of those things above the basic needs. Even comfortable basics of life. I don't accuse Jakes of being wealthly, just of the improper retention of it.

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
Hi SoulDoctor,

So you are interpreting scripture to mean that any person who professes to be a follower of christ should give up any excess accumulation of goods/cash they may have?

If so...

would u be so kind as to point of which scriptures advocate this?

Could it also be interpreted that Jesus felt the wealthy were too concerned with their wealth and not their spirits or their brethren?

Did he actually hate wealth?

and Doesn't GOD in the old testament actually grant generations of people wealth? or curses?
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Hi SoulDoctor,

So you are interpreting scripture to mean that any person who professes to be a follower of christ should give up any excess accumulation of goods/cash they may have?

If so...

would u be so kind as to point of which scriptures advocate this?

Could it also be interpreted that Jesus felt the wealthy were too concerned with their wealth and not their spirits or their brethren?

Did he actually hate wealth?

and Doesn't GOD in the old testament actually grant generations of people wealth? or curses?


Give up excess or put it to good use? It could seem like the same thing, but it is not. 'Give up' wealth could mean anything. Quit working, sell everything you own, etc, etc. But putting it to good use if you have it means giving to those who need, and if you have large amounts, providing for those who cannot provide for themselves.

Sure, it could also be interpreted that way, but it is rare that a wealthy 'person' gains wealth and not become 'concerned' with it. The thing about money is there never seems to be enough. So the greedy gather, while the wise share. I think Jesus hated the preoccupation with wealth. I certainly do. TD Jakes is preoccupied with his. His website if full of all his efforts to make more wealth. And one example of a helpful organization. A reversal of roles I'd say.

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
"If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, and follow me." Matthew 19:21

"It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God."
Mark 19:24

God has told you, O man and woman, what is good; and what does the SOVEREIGN ONE require of you but to do justice, and to be compassionate, and to walk humbly with your God?
Kresge

I have heard that camel/needle thing interpreted differently - depending on what the eye of a needle actually was. I have been told it was the opening of a gate to a city. A camel had to kneel to get through it----therefore it could be said that kneeling for the camel is like humbling himself for a rich man....

had u heard this?
Soul Doctor,

I am probably a bit protective of TD Jakes (although he does not need me to protect him)...I see the effect he has on single black women, men in prison, etc. He has the ability to get people to be self-reflective and to seek to be better men, women, mothers, fathers, etc... In terms of guidance to spiritual/emotional repair, he is probably the best I've seen. He really is more a counselor than a preacher.

I contrast that to somebody like Creflo Dollar who does nothing but prosperity preaching---making people think God is some kind of cash register...they just haven't been faithful enough to open the till yet.... while i have no problems with the church teaching principles of wise stewardship, Creflo is just plain creepy....Add to that his appearance on "Welcome to Atlanta" the rap video last summer and his credibility drops to 0 for me...

I hear whatcha saying...

I don't see him and jakes in the same category...sorry
The difference between the two of these is Jakes reservation and Creflo's lack of it. The read the same bible, teach the same doctrine, believe the same Jesus.

As for Jakes, he's small fish now. Christianity as a whole is on my plate.

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
Soul Doctor is 99.9% correct in his analysis of the church and church leaders today. The church is corrupt and getting worse each year.

They are practicing a form of religion that is completely contrary to what the Holy Bible requires, from what Jesus taught, and what the Old Testament teaches.

The church is "all about money" and obsessed with teaching people that Jesus was not poor and that he encourages riches.

These men who preach the Bible's words have no idea what God's WILL is, they only know what society dictates as far as living standards go.

They have rewritten the Bible into various versions NKJV, Living Bible, Women's Bible, Men's Bible, Poor folks Bible, et., into what they interpret as gospel.

They recruit scholars to write these bibles and indoctrinate ignorant people with words fit for society today, not gospel law. It is pathetic. The devil is having his way bigtime in this country because it is so bent on prosperity and riches.

Church members fornicate, lie, deceive, and all kinds of sinful acts but if they give tithes they feel justified, which is so sad and deceptive, but this is what these men teach.

I served in the church 10 years faithfully under powerful preachers. It started innocently but ended in disguss, not with God, but with the church and church leaders.

Afterward I sat down and wrote a book about the deception of church leadership and the misguided souls they lead. I really feel sorry for the church today and especially Black people who follow these Black so-called spiritual leaders.

I continue to pray for these souls and God always reminds me that "faith is what saves a soul, not works."

Cartel_q
99.9? What's with the .1? I didn't really let lose my rage at the church. That might be why. Smile


But one thing, a soul cannot be 'saved' Cartel. Not as in that manner. Faith can defend, but works are the tools of righteousness. And the righteous gain the 'kindgom'.

Isaiah 1;2-3
"Hear, O heavens, and listen, O earth; for the LORD has spoken: I reared up children and brought them up, but they have rebelled agaist me. The ox knows its owner, and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, My people do not understand."
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Soul Doctor,

I am probably a bit protective of TD Jakes (although he does not need me to protect him)...I see the effect he has on single black women, men in prison, etc. He has the ability to get people to be self-reflective and to seek to be better men, women, mothers, fathers, etc... In terms of guidance to spiritual/emotional repair, he is probably the best I've seen. He really is more a counselor than a preacher.

I contrast that to somebody like Creflo Dollar who does nothing but prosperity preaching---making people think God is some kind of cash register...they just haven't been faithful enough to open the till yet.... while i have no problems with the church teaching principles of wise stewardship, Creflo is just plain creepy....Add to that his appearance on "Welcome to Atlanta" the rap video last summer and his credibility drops to 0 for me...

I hear whatcha saying...

I don't see him and jakes in the same category...sorry



Where does the line ends or begins where Christians desire to be prosperous to use their wealth to help others, and where it ends to use God as some cash register/lottery ticket?

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