Considering the fact that he isn't solely putting all the labour into microsoft...that must mean his employees, and not to mention the countries where the technology industry gets their raw materials from, are being exploited...I pick #4...of course.

This is what happens when the means of production are privatized instead of owned by the people....the workers.
I agree with your sentiment, although I wonder whether you actually mean 5, not 4. brosmile That said, I have a question.

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

This is what happens when the means of production are privatized instead of owned by the people....the workers.


We're sort of mixing threads here, but where, wholesale, does this occur? Where is the means of production owned by the workers? China? Cuba? Russia? Ghana? Senegal? Where do the workers have the capital to purchase the manufacturing capacity required to create industry? Where do they get the millions of dollars to "get in the game" and compete against well capitalized competitors who operate on different principles? Will consumers pay more for products that come from companies owned by their workers? A loaf of bread costs, say, $2,50. Would you pay $3.00, $3.50, $4.00 for bread from a cooperative? Can enough people afford to do that to keep that cooperative in business? Lastly, why aren't there more cooperatives out there? Why haven't more employees bought their companies and run them to their benefit?

BTW - the "raw materials" in software are found between one's ears. brosmile That's why India is kicking our butts these days in creating better/cheaper technology. Also, I used to live in Seattle - actually a couple of miles from Microsoft's HQ. There has been extraordinary wealth created in that area for MSFT employees. Were they "exploited"? I guess it depends upon how you define the word. I can tell you that Seattle has, I think, more millionaires per capita then any other area in the country. I can also tell you that MSFT co-founder Paul Allen has almost single handedly rebuilt a significant part of Seattle - creating jobs, housing, and investing in and nurturing other new businesses. I'm not saying that they are the perfect corporate citizen. Certainly the wealth of Microsoft shareholders suggests that perhaps they could have shared a bit more of that with their employees. They outsource jobs internationally and they are known to be ruthless in how they do business with others (that leverage thing again brosmile ), but all in all, that company has been a tremendous economic engine for many. My neighbor in Seattle was one of the first Microsoft employees. As a result he is "set" for generations and generations. Without the initial capital and investment to start the company, even beyond their employees - think of the billions of people who would live less meaningful lives. Do you run a Microsoft operating system on your computer? Ever use Word? brosmile
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
I agree with your sentiment, although I wonder whether you actually mean 5, not 4. brosmile That said, I have a question.[quote]

You are correct. I meant 5.

[QUOTE]We're sort of mixing threads here, but where, wholesale, does this occur? Where is the means of production owned by the workers? China? Cuba? Russia? Ghana? Senegal? Where do the workers have the capital to purchase the manufacturing capacity required to create industry? Where do they get the millions of dollars to "get in the game" and compete against well capitalized competitors who operate on different principles?


A well organized people take the means of production back via revolution.

quote:
Will consumers pay more for products that come from companies owned by their workers? A loaf of bread costs, say, $2,50. Would you pay $3.00, $3.50, $4.00 for bread from a cooperative? Can enough people afford to do that to keep that cooperative in business? Lastly, why aren't there more cooperatives out there? Why haven't more employees bought their companies and run them to their benefit?


If we don't have to worry about the basics...I think this type of thing would be almost a non-issue. At the very least, it is something that can be worked out later...BTW some places are paying that much anyhow...

quote:
BTW - the "raw materials" in software are found between one's ears. brosmile That's why India is kicking our butts these days in creating better/cheaper technology.


Not quite. I'm talking about the actual MATERIALS...the MATTER used in technology...Computers and electronic technology are physical pieces of equipment. Do you know where almost all of the physical matter that is used in modern technology is located(like micro-chips)? I'll give you one guess...

quote:
Also, I used to live in Seattle - actually a couple of miles from Microsoft's HQ. There has been extraordinary wealth created in that area for MSFT employees. Were they "exploited"? I guess it depends upon how you define the word. I can tell you that Seattle has, I think, more millionaires per capita then any other area in the country. I can also tell you that MSFT co-founder Paul Allen has almost single handedly rebuilt a significant part of Seattle - creating jobs, housing, and investing in and nurturing other new businesses. I'm not saying that they are the perfect corporate citizen. Certainly the wealth of Microsoft shareholders suggests that perhaps they could have shared a bit more of that with their employees. They outsource jobs internationally and they are known to be ruthless in how they do business with others (that leverage thing again brosmile ), but all in all, that company has been a tremendous economic engine for many. My neighbor in Seattle was one of the first Microsoft employees. As a result he is "set" for generations and generations. Without the initial capital and investment to start the company, even beyond their employees - think of the billions of people who would live less meaningful lives. Do you run a Microsoft operating system on your computer? Ever use Word? brosmile


And what RAW MATERIALS were used in this techological explosion? Where did they get them from? We seem to forget that everything material comes from the ground at one point...Who's groud is being dug up? Are those people benefitting from this "explosion"...Or do they not matter?(I know you care about them...but we sure seem to forget about them often...the Amerikkkan bubble syndrome I guess.)

I suggest the movie "The Corporation"...honestly, it will show the "bigger" picture.
OA - I'm not arguing with you. Picture us sitting across from each other on the couch, each with a smile on our faces and a glass of wine in our hands.

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

quote:
We're sort of mixing threads here, but where, wholesale, does this occur? Where is the means of production owned by the workers? China? Cuba? Russia? Ghana? Senegal? Where do the workers have the capital to purchase the manufacturing capacity required to create industry? Where do they get the millions of dollars to "get in the game" and compete against well capitalized competitors who operate on different principles?


A well organized people take the means of production back via revolution.


Help me understand the practical reality of this concept. First, in today's world, how will "organization" overcome WMD's? At best doesn't revolution just create the kind of resistance in Iraq - which grinds productivity to a halt for everyone? OA - Cointelpro was child's play against the technology and legal ability of today's government. I guarantee you that maybe even before you read this, "someone" else has. There are satellites that can read license plates from space. There is technology that records EVERY single trans-Atlantic phone call, that cross references data on people and their behavior all over the world. How does organization - which is inherently about communication - take place on the scale required to change society. Sure, 9/11 occurred, but at the end of the say, everything was back to normal in a few days. The only thing that changed was an INCREASE in government's ability to exert its will to prevent things like that from happening again.

I went to Asia back in '98 and stopped off in Japan for the Winter Olympics. I was traveling lightly and brought my one bag on the plane with me. I was able to fly first class and I guess I fit some profile (drug dealer? I don't know) - so when I got off the flight from Tokyo in NY there were two customs agents who accosted me on my first step off the plane. I was president of the black students organizations at both schools I attended. During undergrad, we made a bit of a stir about apartheid etc. I always heard "noise"/interference on my phone; I suspected that it was tapped. I started AA.org and spout off about reparations with impunity (but logic and persuasiveness). I KNOW that the government has files on me - probably the FBI - but who knows? They may have an active presence here on this site. Who knows? My point is just that in the scheme of things, I am relatively tame and harmless. If they're onto me - you know they are onto just about anybody who's thinking (not necessarily even doing) anything these days. The government can come search our homes without a warrant. The Patriot Act gives them carte blanche to pretty much do what they please. How does revolution on the order of what you contemplate even happen these days?

To be clear - this doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight for our interests. Quite the contrary. It just means that we must be extraordinarily strategic in how we do so. The "revolution" needs to be more of the Trojan Horse variety than the line up on the town green - ready, aim fire kind. brosmile

Second - is that model even applicable in today's world? We are a long way from Marx and Engels. Is Socialism even a viable organizing principle in 2005? In a world where even the Socialists/Communists are turning toward market economies and capitalism, I'm not so sure.



quote:
If we don't have to worry about the basics...I think this type of thing would be almost a non-issue.


Under what circumstance could any community "not have to worry about the basics"? Again, there are few self-sufficient agrarian economies left in the world. OK - Dallas is now under your control. How do people get fed, clothed, cared for medically, etc. under your vision? Socialism is about state control. Are YOU the one who is running things? Who? In your effort to raise the floor, are you concerned at all about the impact on the ceiling?

quote:
I'm talking about the actual MATERIALS...the MATTER used in technology...Computers and electronic technology are physical pieces of equipment. Do you know where almost all of the physical matter that is used in modern technology is located(like micro-chips)? I'll give you one guess...


Well, first, what creates the value in technology is not in the physical things, it is in the intellectual value. Second, most equipment in technology, these days, is made of some kind of plastic - which as you know comes from oil. So, the OPEC nations sell their oil to America. Is there something inherently exploitive about OPEC nations selling their oil? Chips are made form silicon. Silicon comes from sand.

quote:
And what RAW MATERIALS were used in this technological explosion? Where did they get them from?


OA - software development requires very little in the way of raw materials. That's precisely why Bill Gates is as rich as he is! It's about human brain power. Coding creates the overwhelming majority of value in software. Sure there's paper, plastic, etc., but that is negligible. There are no software factories you know! The software factories are plush offices staffed with young geeks eating cold pizza and drinking Red Bull. brosmile

quote:
Are those people benefitting from this "explosion"...Or do they not matter?(I know you care about them...but we sure seem to forget about them often...the Amerikkkan bubble syndrome I guess.)


As always you raise very thoughtful points. At the same time, can you tell me where Socialism is enriching only "the people"? Socialism is just as prone to corruption as any other system. Perhaps more because there are typically fewer people running things and therefore fewer impediments to pocket lining. I know you're not OK with Socialist exploitation. At least with capitalism, there is the opportunity for value to be distributed to shareholders and employees. At the end of the day, consumers are the big beneficiaries. Their lives are enriched by the output of capitalism. YES - capitalism is rife with exploitation and abuse. YES - capitalism is the system which enslaved us. YES - capitalism is intertwined with racism to enslave people today. At the same time, IMHO, I see it as the only way to create the incentives to equalize some of the inequities of the world. India creates powerful software manufacturing, and voilà - their economy exploded, people are employed, etc. The problem is not the system, it is the execution of that system. Let's fix that and use the system to our benefit.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
OA - I'm not arguing with you. Picture us sitting across from each other on the couch, each with a smile on our faces and a glass of wine in our hands.


I know we aren't arguing...I have too much respect for you to "yell" at you, even over the internet. I hope I wans't coming off as though I was.

On another note, I don't think us sitting on the couch with wine and a face to face smile is a good idea...Check my hareem reference on another thread for why... Wink

quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

[QUOTE]Help me understand the practical reality of this concept. First, in today's world, how will "organization" overcome WMD's? At best doesn't revolution just create the kind of resistance in Iraq - which grinds productivity to a halt for everyone?


What's going on in Iraq is temporary. Yes, chaos would insue...but I frankly think it is going to get better before it get's worse.

quote:
OA - Cointelpro was child's play against the technology and legal ability of today's government. I guarantee you that maybe even before you read this, "someone" else has. There are satellites that can read license plates from space. There is technology that records EVERY single trans-Atlantic phone call, that cross references data on people and their behavior all over the world. How does organization - which is inherently about communication - take place on the scale required to change society. Sure, 9/11 occurred, but at the end of the say, everything was back to normal in a few days. The only thing that changed was an INCREASE in government's ability to exert its will to prevent things like that from happening again.

I went to Asia back in '98 and stopped off in Japan for the Winter Olympics. I was traveling lightly and brought my one bag on the plane with me. I was able to fly first class and I guess I fit some profile (drug dealer? I don't know) - so when I got off the flight from Tokyo in NY there were two customs agents who accosted me on my first step off the plane. I was president of the black students organizations at both schools I attended. During undergrad, we made a bit of a stir about apartheid etc. I always heard "noise"/interference on my phone; I suspected that it was tapped. I started AA.org and spout off about reparations with impunity (but logic and persuasiveness). I KNOW that the government has files on me - probably the FBI - but who knows? They may have an active presence here on this site. Who knows? My point is just that in the scheme of things, I am relatively tame and harmless. If they're onto me - you know they are onto just about anybody who's thinking (not necessarily even doing) anything these days. The government can come search our homes without a warrant. The Patriot Act gives them carte blanche to pretty much do what they please. How does revolution on the order of what you contemplate even happen these days?


I understand what you are saying, and believe me, my conspiracy loving, ultra-paranoid self can get the better of me sometimes...But honestly we aren't dealing with gods here. Everything that man has done, man can dismantle...and are we not men? On fact, aren't we the majority?(us oppressed folk)

quote:
To be clear - this doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight for our interests. Quite the contrary. It just means that we must be extraordinarily strategic in how we do so. The "revolution" needs to be more of the Trojan Horse variety than the line up on the town green - ready, aim fire kind. brosmile


I definately agree, and the Trojan hourse senario was organized was it not?

quote:
Second - is that model even applicable in today's world? We are a long way from Marx and Engels. Is Socialism even a viable organizing principle in 2005? In a world where even the Socialists/Communists are turning toward market economies and capitalism, I'm not so sure.


It's not quite that cut and dry...The socialist countries (like China) that are turning to capitalism may even turn into the next capitalist oppressors...but it exemplifies why socialism is necessary for Africa...See how it turned China around? They were once a colonial play ground too. It may only be a "stage" until we get our act together...But staying on the exploitation end of capitalism sure isn't going to improve our lot. And the same "big brother" that you seem to think we can't beat under the current system, isn't going to allow us to move out of our current position we are in. There will never be any benevolent masters...So what choice do we have?

quote:
Under what circumstance could any community "not have to worry about the basics"? Again, there are few self-sufficient agrarian economies left in the world. OK - Dallas is now under your control. How do people get fed, clothed, cared for medically, etc. under your vision? Socialism is about state control. Are YOU the one who is running things? Who? In your effort to raise the floor, are you concerned at all about the impact on the ceiling?


Firstly, I wouldn't want to "control" anyplace...I believe in democratic socialism. Not fascism...Secondly, Dallas couldn't be self sufficient...but Africa sure can be! Thirdly, the only way a "takeover" occurs is via organization. So if "we the people" decided on changing or replacing the current shitstem "we the people"(just like now...people are doing all of what you mentioned) Would take care of all the details. How do people get clothed, fed, medical care ect. now? People do it. Not some corporate gods with magical powers...organized people do it.

quote:
Well, first, what creates the value in technology is not in the physical things, it is in the intellectual value. Second, most equipment in technology, these days, is made of some kind of plastic - which as you know comes from oil. So, the OPEC nations sell their oil to America. Is there something inherently exploitive about OPEC nations selling their oil? Chips are made form silicon. Silicon comes from sand.


Many of the OPEC nations have the basics for their populous...Lybia and pre-sanction Iraq for example...and Chavez' Venezuela is thumbing it's nose at Amerikka and other G-8s everyday.(If you want a shot of possitivity about what an organized people can do to big brother check out the movie about the CIA's attempted and thwarted coups on Chavez called "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised". Of course there is exploitation also...and that needs to be fought against, but I'm just talking about minimizing it. Right now most of Africa's wealth is being exported. How does sticking with capitalism end this, or even slow it down?

quote:
And what RAW MATERIALS were used in this technological explosion? Where did they get them from?


OA - software development requires very little in the way of raw materials. That's precisely why Bill Gates is as rich as he is! It's about human brain power. Coding creates the overwhelming majority of value in software. Sure there's paper, plastic, etc., but that is negligible. There are no software factories you know! The software factories are plush offices staffed with young geeks eating cold pizza and drinking Red Bull. brosmile

I know some people that work in technology assembly, metals are used(I just can't remember wha right now...it's not my personal area of expertise) Some of these metals come from Africa.

quote:

As always you raise very thoughtful points. At the same time, can you tell me where Socialism is enriching only "the people"? Socialism is just as prone to corruption as any other system. Perhaps more because there are typically fewer people running things and therefore fewer impediments to pocket lining. I know you're not OK with Socialist exploitation. At least with capitalism, there is the opportunity for value to be distributed to shareholders and employees. At the end of the day, consumers are the big beneficiaries. Their lives are enriched by the output of capitalism. YES - capitalism is rife with exploitation and abuse. YES - capitalism is the system which enslaved us. YES - capitalism is intertwined with racism to enslave people today. At the same time, IMHO, I see it as the only way to create the incentives to equalize some of the inequities of the world. India creates powerful software manufacturing, and voilà - their economy exploded, people are employed, etc. The problem is not the system, it is the execution of that system. Let's fix that and use the system to our benefit.


India is a bad example. They are getting a petit bourgeouise class that is employed...the masses are still poor as hell without the basics. ANd the multi-nationals are gaining greater and greater vcontrol over their economy. I'll answer your question with a question. What capitalist country has universal healthcare, free figher education, with everyone fed, clothed, and sheltered and no neo-colonies? All the socialist one's do(outside of the China/Tibet fiansco).

Democratic socialism is better than capitalism any day to the starving majority. We are largely sheltered from the poor masses in this country. Where people have no food, clothing, or shelter. The rest of the world is not like that. Progress is only judged by the masses. There are more people in dire poverty than at any other time in history under capitalism. And every day that amount increases. It has to, and is going to stop. The masses of poor aren't going to take it forever.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

And the same "big brother" that you seem to think we can't beat under the current system, isn't going to allow us to move out of our current position we are in. There will never be any benevolent masters...So what choice do we have?


Beat them at their own game. Link I think we can make things better for ourselves and our children. I just fundamentally believe that changes to the current system are our best bet than trying to change the system that this entire country was founded on. It might happen, but certainly not in our lifetimes - and I think incremental changes can occur to make my kids' lives much better. I don't have the patience to wait for the cataclysmic global geo-political sea change that will be required to do what I think you propose.


quote:
Thirdly, the only way a "takeover" occurs is via organization.


Agree, but our opponent is not only also organized, but controls information, society, energy, the money supply as well as the most effective/lethal weapons.

Judo is about using your opponent's strengths against them to your benefit. I think Judo can work for us!

quote:
How does sticking with capitalism end this, or even slow it down?


Let's empower Africans all over the world with the appropriate incentives to invest in and build Africa. Let's take this system that has been used against us and turn the tables. For example, DeBeers - out. If anyone wants diamond jewelry any more they have to go through African companies where profits are invested in Africa to help African people.

quote:
India is a bad example. They are getting a petit bourgeouise class that is employed...the masses are still poor as hell without the basics.


You're right,. But the middle class is exploding from nowhere. Without technology the numbers of poor would be much greater. It's the first step in pulling people up. It's got to start somewhere.

quote:
What capitalist country has universal healthcare, free figher education, with everyone fed, clothed, and sheltered and no neo-colonies?


Canada.

Moreover, why apply standards to capitalist countries that you seem not to be applying to Socialist ones? Remember the USSR? China? (don't forget about Nepal and Hong Kong)
quote:
Democratic socialism is better than capitalism any day to the starving majority.


IMHO capitalism with a floor (compassionate capitalism - LOL) is the most effective system. It could create the incentives that stimulate growth and innovation, while also protecting the least of society with a floor beneath which no one would fall. It would preach the belief that the cost of government stimulating economic growth is to protect those who could be exploited from being so.

IMHO - it would be a lot easier to enact something like that that would at least get us moving in the right direction than more disruptive efforts.

quote:
Progress is only judged by the masses.


Beautifully said!
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

And the same "big brother" that you seem to think we can't beat under the current system, isn't going to allow us to move out of our current position we are in. There will never be any benevolent masters...So what choice do we have?


Beat them at their own game. http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=60260642&f=518603611&m=1056090751 I think we can make things better for ourselves and our children. I just fundamentally believe that changes to the current system are our best bet than trying to change the system that this entire country was founded on. It might happen, but certainly not in our lifetimes - and I think incremental changes can occur to make my kids' lives much better. I don't have the patience to wait for the cataclysmic global geo-political sea change that will be required to do what I think you propose.


I think that might be because you are keepin it within the Amerikkkan paradigm. I say this because I didn't see anything in that proposal on that link that deals with the liberation of Africa. I doubt Amerikkka will be socialist anytime soon. That would be nice but it's not my or Pan-Africanisms objective. The objective is a primarily a unified socialist Africa.


quote:
Agree, but our opponent is not only also organized, but controls information, society, energy, the money supply as well as the most effective/lethal weapons.


Ther only reason the enemy controls African society is because the African masses aren't organized. I think you may be referring to U.S. society's control. I'm not reffering to the revolution taking place on U.S. soil. The Amerikkkan propoganda machine likes to make it's populous(and the world) think that it has control over the entire globe. The Iraqi fiasco alone proves that's not true. If Africans get organized on(and with) the continent, it would make the insurgents in Iraq look like they are playing cowbots and Indians. The enemy is not all powerful gods in control of everything. They just like to make us feel that way so we don't get organized.

quote:
Judo is about using your opponent's strengths against them to your benefit. I think Judo can work for us!


ANd one of the enemy's weakest points is that they are not the majority..in Africa, or of the planet in general.

quote:
For example, DeBeers - out. If anyone wants diamond jewelry any more they have to go through African companies where profits are invested in Africa to help African people.
quote:


And how do you plan to kick DeBeers out without a revolution? The Zionist and G-8 imperialist capitlaists that run DeBeers aren't just going to hand over or sell the diamond mines to the people in S.A. The people are going to have to take the land back from the settler colonialists first.

[QUOTE]You're right,. But the middle class is exploding from nowhere. Without technology the numbers of poor would be much greater. It's the first step in pulling people up. It's got to start somewhere.[quote]

But there is also expaninding economic control by the West...the multinationals are getting more than a foothold in the country...and what is that going to lead to? Neo-colonialism. Or is it good for the Indians to be rich slaves to the west like former Rhodesia was?

[QUOTE]What capitalist country has universal healthcare, free figher education, with everyone fed, clothed, and sheltered and no neo-colonies?

Canada.


Sorry, Wrong answer. The Canadian multinational corporations are all over East Africa...Titanium mines...They are just quieter about their exploits like Germany is.

quote:
Moreover, why apply standards to capitalist countries that you seem not to be applying to Socialist ones? Remember the USSR? China? (don't forget about Nepal and Hong Kong)


Did any of them actually have colonies in Africa? What about Cuba? Don't get me wrong..Russia and China still had their expansionist policies. but if Africa is socialist then maybe we can become strong like Russia once was and China still is...Capitalism is just going to keep Africa in the host/pasrasite condition it is currently in with the west.

quote:
IMHO capitalism with a floor (compassionate capitalism - LOL)

lol is right...that's an oxymoron. That's the problem...It's about capital, not people. We can't force massa to care.


quote:
It could create the incentives that stimulate growth and innovation, while also protecting the least of society with a floor beneath which no one would fall. It would preach the belief that the cost of government stimulating economic growth is to protect those who could be exploited from being so.

IMHO - it would be a lot easier to enact something like that that would at least get us moving in the right direction than more disruptive efforts.


How? How is implementing this easier? How would you get Africa out of the current host/parasite relationship with the Western imperialists it is in under capitalism.



quote:
Progress is only judged by the masses.


Beautifully said!


Thanks...but the masses of us are in Africa. And until the masses are respected...none of us will be.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

but if Africa is socialist then maybe we can become strong like Russia once was and China still is.


You infer that Socialism made them strong. Didn't totalitarianism make them strong?

It is also interesting to note that the instant that the totalitarianist influence was removed, capitalism rushed in faster than the speed of light.

quote:
quote:
IMHO capitalism with a floor (compassionate capitalism - LOL)

lol is right...that's an oxymoron. That's the problem...It's about capital, not people. We can't force massa to care.


And how does Socialism accommodate the human will to achieve, to provide, to innovate, to create, to acquire? For better or worse, those traits are the reality. To ignore them is to spit in the wind.

In a world that is dominated by capitalism, how do you get a continent to eschew the upside of capitalism for a mythic Utopian society that has never existed in modern history?

Again, as I laid out, capitalism probably takes care of people along the value chain better than any other model. When executed appropriately, it distributes wealth and resources evenly - raising the masses up through employment and investment. How does suppressing achievement of those most capable of contributing to the uplift of the masses help the people best?

Moreover, do you really think your going to get those brothers in Nigeria and Senegal and Ghana to forget about capitalism and go to Socialism? Really? brosmile

quote:
How? How is implementing this easier? How would you get Africa out of the current host/parasite relationship with the Western imperialists it is in under capitalism.


Ask Robert Mugabe.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
You infer that Socialism made them strong. Didn't totalitarianism make them strong?

It is also interesting to note that the instant that the totalitarianist influence was removed, capitalism rushed in faster than the speed of light.[QUOTE]

China is still referred to as a bunch of Commies...what are you referring to?


[QUOTE]And how does Socialism accommodate the human will to achieve, to provide, to innovate, to create, to acquire? For better or worse, those traits are the reality. To ignore them is to spit in the wind.


Funny, we didn't have a problem with communalism in most traditional societies the world over...And I remember you said on the other thread about this that we weren't technologically advanced and we were aggrarian societies. i think that is only Euro/Western arrogance that promotes that as the truth...that this point in time is the most technologically advanced...the same people who can't figure out how the pyramids were built...

quote:
In a world that is dominated by capitalism, how do you get a continent to eschew the upside of capitalism for a mythic Utopian society that has never existed in modern history?


organization...and I'm not taliing about utopia...I';m talking about progress for the masses. A decrease in exploitation and opression...I'm glad those under colonialism didn't think this way about independence.

quote:
Again, as I laid out, capitalism probably takes care of people along the value chain better than any other model. When executed appropriately, it distributes wealth and resources evenly - raising the masses up through employment and investment. How does suppressing achievement of those most capable of contributing to the uplift of the masses help the people best?[/b]

You are speaking of socialism...not capitalism. Capitalism isn't about even "trying" to spread wealth evenly. That's why things are the way they are. Wealth is concentrated. that's the whole idea.

[quote]Moreover, do you really think your going to get those brothers in Nigeria and Senegal and Ghana to forget about capitalism and go to Socialism? Really? brosmile


Nigeria will be difficult(I ahd to say it...lol)...but there is major socialist influence in Ghana already...It already was socialist by choice prior to the coups, so it can be again in the future(Nkrumah?) The masses of African people still have a tendancy to think and act communally. The problem is we are not organized.

quote:
Ask Robert Mugabe.


The Chimurenga wars were a BLOODY revolution that kicked out the colonialists...Without them Mugabe would be powerless...So why can't they be repeated...There were already weapons of mass destruction being used by the West. We are not beoing oppressed by gods.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:

I'm glad those under colonialism didn't think this way about independence.


Quite the opposite. You reference above is misleading (but I think you know that). We're discussing strategy and tactics here. Not objectives. I just think that my strategy is more effective based upon the world today than yours.
OA - one quick question: so how does Africa get organized? It seems that you default to organization whenever discussing the potential of Socialism. How do you achieve a state of organization, unity, and alignment in a continent strife with conflict today?

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