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quote:
...Cosby is entitled to publicly air black America's alleged dirty laundry but when there's more myth than dirt in that laundry, than he must be called out on it.

Cosby myth:
"You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, and you want to get an education and now you're minimum wage."

Truth:
It's not clear what bed and living rooms in poor black households Cosby peeped in to make that charge, but a Justice Department study in 2000 found that since 1993 domestic violence plunged among all groups. It further found that the murder rate of black females killed by their partners sharply dropped, while the murder rate jumped among white females killed by their partners.

The Justice Department study and a UCLA School of Public Health study in 1996, however, found that blacks are more likely to report domestic violence than whites, Hispanics and Native Americans. In the UCLA study, the blacks that physically abused their partners were young (under 30), lived in urban areas, had lower income and were less educated. The study noted that only about five percent of the men resorted to physical violence during their marital arguments and that the "vast majority" reported discussing their disagreements with their partners calmly and without resort[ing] to physical violence.

Cosby Myth:
"They think they're hip, they can't read; they can't write, they're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."

Truth:
But many do think it's hip to read and write. The U.S. Dept. of Education found that in the decades since 1975, more blacks were enrolled in school, had improved their SAT scores by nearly 200 points, and had markedly lowered their dropout rate. It also found that one in three were in college, and that the number of blacks receiving bachelors and masters degrees had nearly doubled.

A 2002 survey of student attitudes by the Minority Student Achievement Network, an Illinois-based educational advocacy group, found that black students were as motivated, studied as hard, and were as serious about graduating as whites. Many of the blacks that now attend historically black colleges and probably other colleges are from lower income, disadvantaged homes. In a majority of cases they are the first members of their family to attend college.

Cosby Myth:
"Well, Brown versus Board of Education: Where are we today. They paved the way, but what did we do with it. They don't hold up their part of the deal."

Truth:
The ones who aren't holding up their part of the deal are Cosby's lower income whites, and middle- income blacks not the black poor. According to the latest census figures, a higher percentage of lower income blacks were registered to vote, and actually voted, than lower income whites. The same can't be said for their more well to do black brethren. The census found that a lower percentage of higher income blacks were registered, and voted, than their higher income white counterparts. The quantum leap in the number of black elected officials in the past two decades could not have happened without the votes of thousands of poor blacks.


Some poor young blacks can't read or write, join gangs, deal drugs, terrorize their communities, and beat up their wives or partners. Many whites, Hispanics, and Asians also engage in the same type of dysfunctional and destructive behavior. Cosby did not qualify or provide any factual context for his blanket indictment of poor blacks. He made the negative behavior of some blacks a racial rather than endemic social problem. In doing so, he did more than break the alleged taboo against publicly airing racial dirty laundry; he fanned dangerous and destructive stereotypes.

That's hardly the call to action that will inspire and motivate underachieving blacks to improve their lives. Quite the contrary, it will further demoralize those poor blacks who are doing the best they can to better their lives. It will do nothing to encourage government officials and business leaders to provide greater resources, and opportunities to aid those blacks that need help. In doing that, Cosby, not poor blacks, failed miserably to hold up his part of the deal.

Now it's rather ironic how in any other conversation we feel like we are underserved by our government (as Black people) yet we don't have the ability to connect the idiocy of Cosby's statements with the prevailing attitudes among Whites who run our government with our money.

And that's the biggest problem here. The DISCONNECT! For the sake of church member nods for Cosby citing one of our (non-exclusive) sins we act like there is not only no cosequence to his narrow and aimless, condescending statements but we also act like it has no effect on justifying the entrenched, racists attitudes of White people in power using our very own money at their whims.

Like KEVIN says a lot, those that voice Cosby like sentiments (mostly B-CON's) act like this country and White people are suppose to get a pass on racism, past and present. Instead of demanding that we get out as much as we put into the system, we take what they decide to not only give us materially but we take on a branch of their philosophy too. Instead of making the connect that the racism that was/is involved in inequitable resources over the years being an integral part of the problem... one that either created and/or (still) exasterbates conditions, we're willing to do just what they want and say "well, it nobody's fault but our own..."

Hmmm... That's really about the dumbest reductionism ever made. We've accepted as a matter of course the idea that we must overcome all the barriers in place and set in motion by this racist society. We've accepted, as a matter of course, that we must work "twice as hard" just to be considered just as good... And, after all this time talking about "equality" we haven't realized that we have accepted and arbitrarily placed undue burden on ourselves by accepting such a thing as something we "have" to always do.

That's yielding ever so directly to WHITE SUPREMACY and accepting that as our fate.

No, I not at all arguing against esteeming excellence. But to require something of ourselves that is way over and above what anyone else is really required to do is insane. Individual excellence and our collective well being are not mutually exclusive and the ultimate for both require removing the structural problems of racism/White Supremacy.

There is no way we can achieve those goals individually or otherwise in any widespread way without doing that. Simple good parenting alone is not going to deal effectively with all that.

I guess good parents just pop up on the word go.

I'd advise everyone to refer to Geoffery Canada's Three Areas Where Values Must Be Reinforced and seriously think about how you create such enviroments. Hmm... and that would be what's missing from Cosby's "message" - solutions.

And I've yet to see the full two (or more) sides to the "deal" that the "Lower Economic" people were not keeping up their end on. I guess when you got a "message" there's no need to get bogged down with telling the whole story and including all the actors/characters.

I mean... when did the "Lower Economic" people strike a deal? Are there contract papers somewhere that shows how they (alone) are in breach?
Nmaginate picked the one paragraph that I was just thinking needed some editing Big Grin And though I am in no way hoping for agreement on this issue, I will go ahead, for the sake of clarification of my thought on this, finish my thought. Smile

quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
He said the low-income (Black) parents are dropping the ball in raising their kids. He said too many of our children are uneducated and will end up in jail before they end up in college. He said more Black children and their parents need to speak better English, and pick up books and read them. This is true. Period.


What I mean is that, even if there are white, low-income parents that are not parenting their children correctly, that in no way negates the truth that there are low-income Black parents not parenting correctly. Out of all of the parents in this country, there are Asian, Hispanic, White, African low-, middle-, and upper-income, fat/skinny, educated/uneducated, blonde, brunette, red-head and charcoal black headed people (parents) who need to pick up a book and read to their children and have them read to them, because they or their children do not know how to read. That's an undeniable fact. HOWEVER, there are a lot, waaaay too many Black parents and children in that same predicament. Whether it is shouted from rooftops or politely whispered around dinner tables ... it's a fact.

Now, me, personally, (And I really don't mean to be rude, here!) but I couldn't give a damn about those other people and their snotty-nosed little kids!! Eek Eek I mean, my sympathies, and all, but all my damns in that area are about the number of BLACK children (and parents) that fit into that category, first and foremost!! For my tastes, there are far too many of them.

Now, somebody (Bill Cosby) steps up and says this ... out loud. I don't even care that it was Bill Cosby. Could have been some other Black man that said it. I applaud whoever addresses the issue. I really don't care who else hears, who's looking, who's pointing fingers. It should make US stand up and take note AND do something about it, for it is our problem. I can't deny that how we got here is relevant, but fixing the problem is imperative. The reality of the condition of too many of our Black youth is sobering. The number of their parent(s) who are not providing the proper attention to them to make sure they at least have a chance as being successful, is staggering.

After all is said and done, what he said is the truth. Bottom line. And it would behoove the Black community to listen up and hear it. It would benefit us greatly to do something about it.

As far as whoever else might have heard it or might have something to say about it ... unless they are willing to help us deal with it, they are basically irrelevant, and the most they could do is stand in the way of progress.

Although some may think he wasn't specific enough to make his statement acceptable, I think he said exactly what we need to be hearing. Too many Black children are in trouble, too many Black parents are to blame for it. It's a problem. And it needs to be fixed.
Although some may think he wasn't specific enough to make his statement acceptable, I think he said exactly what we need to be hearing.

First of all, that's what you should have said in the first place instead of trying to feign the "I think everybody makes some good points" posture you started out with as if you're impartial...

"What We Need To Be Hearing..."

And us hearing that is suppose to do what?
I'm still waiting for this Magical Osmosis to set in that you Cosby-ites keep referring to - as if "hearing" those words from him or whoever are some magic-action elixir, let alone something new.

After all is said and done, what he said is the truth. Bottom line.

That's already been debuncted. Try another line. Because its "true" then what? That validates everything he said with all its exaggerations and all its condescension. Again, I say if a White person had said it we would be at the very least make them suspect racist. That would make the statements no less "true" if the came out of a White mouth. I don't think I have to search far to find any such words but I doubt very seriously you and most others here would be taking the same attitude in saying, "Bottom Line... What that KKK member said is "true"!"

And you know that ignorant sh!t wouldn't fly and you wouldn't be accepting it. That's why you were careful to say:
"I don't even care that it was Bill Cosby. Could have been some other Black man that said it."

Hmmm....

And it would behoove the Black community to listen up and hear it.

And how do you measure whether or not we are "listening up and hearing it"?

It would benefit us greatly to do something about it.

That would explain it. You endorse Cosby silliness because you are just as clueless as he is. (Not meaning to be rude.) "Doing something about it"... Why no direct, specific curative suggestions that will alleviate this situation?

Do something? Do you mean just anything?
C'mon Ebony. Do something?

Let me ask you this:
What are you measures to tell that "something" isn't being done?

Or are we to find that you are being absolutist in you position here? I mean you went through all this talk about he didn't say "all", "every", such and such... yet when you say "do something" you seem not to want to acknowledge the 'somethings' and the someones that are doing things - things individually and things by collective efforts to get individuals who aren't doing things to do them.

All you asked was for us to do "something" but damn... I don't think that's what you meant because you can't deny there is "something" being done.

As far as whoever else might have heard it or might have something to say about it ... unless they are willing to help us deal with it, they are basically irrelevant, and the most they could do is stand in the way of progress.

Ahhh... That's exactly the point.
And stupid comments like Cosby only embolden those who would with our own money via taxes, etc. do what they can stand in the way of our progress. Hmmm... and the last time I checked that was no passing or glancing obstruction. DISCONNECT!

Too many Black children are in trouble, too many Black parents are to blame for it. It's a problem. And it needs to be fixed.

Preach sister! Preach to the choir! Preach to the choir some more! Preach! Preach! Preach!

Tell me when you're ready to move out of the pulpit.

Again, no outline for how to "fix" anything.
And, of course, all the FACTS be damned. Instead of acknowledging that poor or lackluster parenting isn't the sole property of "Lower Economic" people (a point in the article or my points you didn't care to comment on) you went right on like that was something invisible.

We do a very good job at looking at symptoms of something and calling it the actual problem. That would make a lot of sense and explain why we are short on solutions and short in the tooth about wanting someone to preach loudly about what's "wrong", true (& accurate) or not.
"Do something..." Hmmm....

Feelings of exasperation - aka emotional sentiments which hardly amount to clear rational thought, clear reflections or logical connected things in reality.

What I mean is that, even if there are white, low-income parents that are not parenting their children correctly, that in no way negates the truth that there are low-income Black parents not parenting correctly.

Just like Cosby. Need to revise things you let slip out your mouth.

What you still want to gloss over is that it is not limited to the Low-Income. (Don't try to sweeten Cosby's sh!t use the same condescending tone he used. He spoke the "truth" right? WHy deviate from it?).

Hmmm... Can I get you to revise and comment on that? ("Wha... Wha.... What I had said was...")

The fact that there are Low Income families who aren't parenting correctly does not negate the "truth" that there are middle class, etc. families who are not doing an ample job either. So, now what???

Why is the focus on the "Low Economic" people?
Sounds like some Elitist White BS to me. Something taken straight from the White Pages. But that's the problem with sentiments. They're easily controlled, shaped and formed emotions...

Seriously, what in your opinion is the reason why Lower Economic people seem to be doing a poor job parenting? What makes their situation different from anyone elses? The sum total. (Don't give some little selective BS.)

If you're seriously talking about "fixing" and solving problems then, obviously, you must first believe they can be fixed. That requires you to believe in the people who need "fixing". If you believe in the people who need "fixing" then you believe they can be "fixed". All that suggest that there is something that's missing from the life circumstance/reaction equation as far as 'their' fixing is concerned. Okay!!

Talk to me. What's missing?

They need to read to their kids.
Okay. And after they read to their kids that's it? What if, they have to work several jobs to support their kids? What happens after all that reading in their early years the get caught up in a gang later in life? What??? The suppose to just snap out of it with the words of Nancy Reagan COSBY and "Just Say No!"??

See that's how ignorant Cosby's comments are.
"Ya'll need to stop being in gangs!"

Damn... is it me or have I not been hearing that like ad infinitum??

Okay!! Now what's the alternative? The functional alternative. We can talk all day about all the negatives but what and where are the positives?

I listed examples of people "doing something about it" in a very direct way. All Cosby did was talk. And unless you think supporting colleges and some indirect/obscure foundation amounts to dealing directly with the problems as it relate parenting and the education of K-12 kids then you ought to tell the truth and say loudly all that Cosby is doing is talking. Now, if you value that so highly. Then that's your perogative. But I'm calling him and all of us to task for not support and promoting those programs that are doing something about it. And Cosby with his celebrity and stature is uniquely qualified to spur that on in a way like none of us can. But, instead of doing that, he would rather be that old condemning and condescending preacher who gets his AMEN!! but has little to show in terms of how he has tend to the flock he deemed lost.

But, if you like that All Style No Substance type of preaching... be my guest. When he lends his 'credibility', popularity, etc. to promoting Black institutions then maybe he would fulfill his end of the bargain.

(Hint: We can't do this on a mass scale without the institutions For Us, Of Us and By Us to foster, support, reinforce and replicate what's desired. If our Talented/Gifted/Fortuned TENTH don't see to doing that and they're not talking in that vain then that's on us for not holding them accountable. That's their role. We support them. They should by all means support us with more than just lip service. And, credit to Cosby where credit is due. But he is in the red on the K-12 issues that his comments are without a doubt mostly about.

So I say to him, "Lead the charge. But the people will demand that you lead us in the right direction and towards something substantive and positive."

I find his comments, as the author said, "unqualified" and, considering, misplaced. If it had come from a Marva Collins, Canada, Madhubuti, etc. then it would have way more credence and I'm sure (with the link above) as proof they have all said, in essence, some of the same things yet, notably, they didn't stop there. They knew what had to be done so even their speech doesn't stop, irresponsibly, with mere blanket chastisement. Their speeches go on to actually speak of "doing something" and illustrate not only what must be done but to get down to doing it.
"Kids today can do anything they want, and adults don't say anything..."

There's a statement that hardly different from what Cosby has said - one that implicates parenting. Yet, Canada (link on pg. 2) didn't stop there in both word and deed on that very specific issue. How come Cosby can't follow suit if this is all about "doing something" and speaking the "truth"?

I'm not saying he has to do that same thing. I've made that clear but just saying it on a megaphone doesn't make it something that's heard any more than it's already been heard. One thing that almost everybody agrees on is that what Cosby said was nothing new. Nothing that hadn't been said before. So, considering that that's the case then what makes him saying it some important, noteworthy, etc.?

I've heard and or said the same things forever... AND??? What? Hearing it from him or on national TV, in the news is suppose to make a difference?

Seriously... those with that attitude need to really examine your assumptions and expectations and overall outlook as to not lean to you're own understanding and biases.

The Hutchinson "MYTH" article spoke the "truth" but I don't see anyone trumpeting it. What I said about him not having a school dedicated to educating Black kids K-12 is true. When I said and say his comments were condescending that's the TRUTH! Point out something I said that was in error? - i.e. not true?

Now, with all Cosby's truth telling where are his solutions? Where?? Point them out to me in any of the press coverage or articles from the fallout from his comments.
quote:
Bill Cosby Refuses To Backdown From Comments

...Cosby cited a 50 percent dropout rate for Blacks. However, according to the National Center for Education Statistics, the dropout rate for African-Americans was 13.1 percent in 2000, the last year for which statistics are available...
quote:
"The church is only open on Sunday and you can't keep asking Jesus to do things for you. You can't keep saying that God will find a way. God is tired of you," Cosby declared to loud applause.

What I said about an old condemning preacher was right!
quote:
"I wasn't there when God was saying it, I am making this up, but it sounds like what God would say. In **all** of this work we can not blame white people. White people don't live over there; they close up the shop early. The Korean ones don't know us well enough, so they stay open 24 hours."
quote:
"With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that crap, and all of them are in jail..." Brown versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem...

*ALL* the Shaniquas, Mohammeds, etc. EBONY!! "ALL"...
quote:
"We can't excuse these people," Cosby said.

Spoken just like your run of the mill Rent-a-Racist! And of course the ready refrain of White people are not to blame, etc. straight from the White Pages!!

Apparently, years of racism are of no consequence. Black people are SuperPEOPLE. Impervious to everything. Everything just bounces right off of us. And even while WHITE SUPREMACY exist we're still in complete control of every aspect of our lives. Hell.
> We are fully responsible and completely in control of educating our people.
> We are fully responsible and completely in control of employing our people.
> We are fully responsible and completely in control of providing all the social needs of our people.

Yes!! We're completely and absolutely in control and always have been especially after Segregation. That's why we move to [White] neighborhoods in order to go to "good" schools, etc. Because we're in complete and absolute control... Those are all completely choices we've made from a realm of many other suitable and comparable options.

Hmmm....
I went to www.gnn.tv/heat/qt_hi.html and there was millionaire 50 Cent rapping to something called HEAT. The "lyrics" went like this...

If there's a beef, cock it and dump it, the drama means nothin
To me I'll ride by and blow ya brains out
There's no time to cock it, no way you can stop it
When niggas run up on you wit them things out
I do what I gotta do I don't care if I get caught
The DA can play this motherfuckin tape in court
I'll kill you I ain't playin, hear what I'm sayin, homie I ain't playin
Catch you slippin, I'ma kill you - I ain't playin, hear what I'm saying, homie I ain't playin.

There's much more to this delectable "ditty", these are the "lyrics" that were written for all to see.

I think I'd rather listen to what Millionaire Bill Cosby has to say rather than have my children (anyone's children) listen to what Mr. Shot 9 Times Millionaire 50 Cent is saying any day.

I'm all for teaching the children, reading to 'em all that. What purpose does it serve when all that's gonna come of it is that someone will be scraping their spaghettied-shattered bodies from foreign "theaters" after they're FORCED to fight and die in the Recessive Gene Sect's neverending wars? Will it all be for nought? That's what I'm concerned with at the moment. Can Africans STAY ALIVE or do we just have to DIE for EVERY-DAMNED-BODY (Somalia, Congo, USA, Iraq, et al)?
Nmaginate, not trying to be rude or disrespectful, but you have been beating the living crap out of Bill Cosby who has been making statements for reasons that are his and his alone. He certainly owes me no explanation for speaking his mind, nor do I think he has to continually express his right to state his opinion simply because it has been difficult for some to swallow. The dialogue and commentary resulting from the airing of laundry - dirty or otherwise - can often be positive, motivating, and enlightening.

I would like to know what your qualifications are for criticising him so harshly? What are you doing to address the issue in your corner of the universe? Have you started a school? Do you serve on a school board of directors? Are you an educator? Do you tutor? Are you a mentor? Are you involved in the boys/girls clubs? Do you lecture youth concerning their future options and the importance of a quality education?

I don't know anything about you personally as I am relatively new on this board, and I would genuinely like to know what your personal efforts are.

IMHO, anyone who speaks as passionately as you do on any subject must certainly be an individual who cares enough to be doing something about it. Perhaps if you share your personal formula for success in this area, others may emulate you and the blight that affects so many of our neighborhoods and communities can finally be eliminated.

Leaving everyone else out of the equation, what have you done and what are you doing?
Bill hasn't said anything most advocates of Black empowerment and self-responsibility such as myself haven't embraced. However, I believe the problem may arise when Mr. Cosby comes off as an arrogant elitist when he himself has character flaws. I find it somewhat convenient that Bill negates the fact he had his own indiscretions when he was creepin' on his wife Camille with white women. That's not very responsible. I guess infidelity isn't in the equation of his personal values and responsibilities he critiques others for not practicing.
A local radio station in NYC a few weeks ago recently hosted Bill COsby's return to Newark. Many local black activists were there speaking as well, including Ras Baraka (the deputy mayor & son of Amiri Baraka) and members of the Nation of Islam. The focus was on education and resisting the lure of street gangs. I, personally, am happy with what Bill is doing, because I believe he's empowering the silent majority of blacks to be a little less reticent about the desire to take our streets back and do more. There are some things he has said that I disagree with ("black man, stop beating your women"?!?!? "Pound cake"?!?!?) But the thing I notice here is that he's not saying anything that lots of other famous blacks say publicly. The difference, though, is that Bill is saying it critically, while Snoop Dogg, Jay-Z, scores of other rap artists and comedians, the various Chitlin' Circuit playwrights, etc., etc., tend to say the same thing, but glorifyingly and with exaggeration. Our "dirty laundry" is out there for public consumption, and too much of our culture these days is dominated by a low-class, self-devaluing "ghettoized" mentality. Cosby is empowering those who have felt powerless as this domination has been happening. We can and should do better, and we are our own main obstacle. Those of you on this board who do not live in or near the hood have no standing to disagree with this. You don't see what goes on in the Newarks of America. Despite some of the main topics on this board, "negro-cons" ("I also like "neo-coons") are not our worst enemy within. The problems Bil Cosby talks about are real, they are disproportionately afflicting us, and that is the problem. I hope Cosby keeps talking about it.
And us hearing that is suppose to do what?
I'm still waiting for this Magical Osmosis to set in that you Cosby-ites keep referring to - as if "hearing" those words from him or whoever are some magic-action elixir, let alone something new.


It should first alarm you, and then it should make you consider finding a young man, perhaps in jail or out, who is living under the conditions Cosby talked about, and mentor him, talk to him, care about him and try to present him with a positive outlook. That is, of course, unless you believe that no such young men exist. In which case, you should just sit back and call Cosby a liar.

_After all is said and done, what he said is the truth. Bottom line._

Again, I say if a White person had said it we would be at the very least make them suspect racist. That would make the statements no less "true" if the came out of a White mouth. I don't think I have to search far to find any such words but I doubt very seriously you and most others here would be taking the same attitude in saying, "Bottom Line... What that KKK member said is "true"!"

I am not one of those people who cares where the truth comes from more than I care about the truth itself. You see, the truth is important to me, no matter where it comes from. Now, if a White person says "Black are stupid and can't learn." Yes, I take expection to that, because it's not the TRUTH. I don't have to respect the truth teller to respect the truth. Bush says Black homeownership is at it's highest level .. well, that's true. Does that mean I have to respect Bush?? I don't think so.

Tell me, Nmaginate, do you care about the numbers of young black men going to jail or prison? Do you care about the dropout rate of the Black community? Are you in any way concerned about the numbers of Black children growing up without any kind of positive male figure in their lives? Do you even think it's important that they should have one?

Or, let me back up ... do you even believe that Black children are dropping out of school in any significant numbers? Or that there are Black kids today that cannot read to their grade level? Is it your belief that there are no Black parents in the inner city who don't do an adequate job of parenting?

Perhaps you cannot see the truth in Cosby's statements because your own truths are totally different. Roll Eyes
quote:
I would like to know what your qualifications are for criticising him so harshly? What are you doing to address the issue in your corner of the universe? Have you started a school? Do you serve on a school board of directors? Are you an educator? Do you tutor? Are you a mentor? Are you involved in the boys/girls clubs? Do you lecture youth concerning their future options and the importance of a quality education?

This is pretty funny. Everyone of you Cosby supporters are worried about him being criticized "harshly"... lol

He is not beyond reproach. That's the way it is with public figures, right? They too can be criticized or is there something special about Cosby? C'mon... please tell...

To answer your question...
I'm not particularly "qualified", nor am I an educator per se but as far as mentoring, tutoring, etc. I've done that, continue to do that and see that as nothing to even discuss. That's simply what I'm suppose to do. No credit or recognition needed. (And, hence, talking about myself and what I do is not at all important to me. This is not personal.)

As far as what EBONY said about young men coming out of prison... That's something that's in my plans. I certainly have seen the need and have set that as my future training and professional goal to establish transitional services for those brothers.

Boys & Girls Club, Big Brother Big Sister... and other community level involvement. Not as active now as I have been in the past but I still do some speaking, etc.

Now, that I've said, I guess the obligatory things about myself with me apparently having to be "qualified" to criticize Cosby, what I have said has been very constructive about him and anyone (Oprah) with his stature. You can include all the Rappers you love to hate too but I hardly find them comparable, especially the selective cases you guys come up with.

It's awfully funny how in this election season and none of you have mentioned P. Diddy or Russell Simmons or KRS ONE and their Vote Or Die efforts and the community activist, as limited as it may be from them. Choosing easy targets of knucklehead rappers don't strengthen your case. And, as a matter of fact, if "responsible" figures like Cosby can command as much widespread respect as we like to think then I most certainly feel like he should be able to reach them to... or at least reach into their pockets and have them donate towards more focused and corrective efforts.

If Bill Cosby can speak his mind without owing any apologies then all of us can too. He puts his pants on just like I do. You might regard him as sacred or whatever but it's about time we expect something in particular from those "who have been given much" instead of just being happy by reductionist, lowest common denominator comparison that they are doing "something".

I've made it clear. If Cosby because of his means and more specifically his celebrity and stature wants to criticize issues as they relate to K-12 Education then he should lead the march NOT in opening his ignorant mouth but in supporting the Canada's, Marva Collins, the African-Centered schools, etc. that are out there making a difference. Programs that need the type of attention and, hopefully, the funding that a person of Cosby's notarity can bring to such an issue.

Instead of seeing that as constructive criticism for people like Cosby... people here would rather make excuses for him and LCD type rationales for why we don't hold such figures (who can range the whole celebrity and public figure gamut, IMO) to account.
I CAN NOT believe Cosby is causing such a sitr amongst Black folks!

In all the Bill Cosby "rhetoric", I have not heard a false statement. And, quiet surprise it has caused such fervor dialog here. Recently, I attended a social function where comments were made about Cosby. Truthfully,I was surprised at these Black "intellectuals" who thought Bill needs to keep his mouth shut. High blood pressue isn't the only silent killer among us. Ignorance also kills. SOMEONE needs to stand up and say what needs to be said instead of letting things continue as if its OK not to get an education and I am not talking about a college education. I am talking about a high school education. Soon a college education will be affordable only to the privilege.

Where are those of Bill Cosby's stature? They should join him in a "education" campaign like the VOTE campaign. Bill knows, education is one thing no one can take away from you once you have it.
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
I've made it clear. If Cosby because of his means and more specifically his celebrity and stature wants to criticize issues as they relate to K-12 Education then he should lead the march NOT in opening his ignorant mouth but in supporting the Canada's, Marva Collins, the African-Centered schools, etc. that are out there making a difference. Programs that need the type of attention and, hopefully, the funding that a person of Cosby's notarity can bring to such an issue.




I would like to see him support these efforts as well. However, I don't see the validity in any criticism against what he has said. He could do both, or he could do one or the other. The validity of his message is the key, as far as I'm concerned. I'm absolutely positive that if he did support the efforts you mentioned while also making these comments (after all, I don't know that he isn't), most of those who criticize him for his comments would still criticize him for his comments. It's clear to me that the anger focused at him is based on some feeling that he has attacked us. The "two-bit rappers" I cited are among a huge pantheon of major, major stars whose huge hits say the exact same things Cosby says. However, much of the criticism against Bill has come from people who EMBRACE that music!

And let's not forget one thing: the critical comments Cosby has made are aimed at phenomena that are well within the control of the people of whom he speaks. He's not blaming anybody for not being Donald Trump or Warren Buffett. He's just calling on people to stop engaging in behavior, well within their control, that would hold them back even in the absence of racism. And even though a lot of black people are upset with him for it, the majority of us, I suspect, are quietly raising a fist in the air in agreement.
It should first alarm you,

Ebony? Why should I be "alarmed" so to speak about something I am well aware of? Bill Cosby said nothing new. He can talk all he wants but he needs to get his sh!t straight and like I pointed about about what Canada said... take that sh!t beyond condemnation.

"God is tired of you!"

WTF??? is that? Huh, Ebony?
What is that but some BS, judgemental, elists BS!?

That is, of course, unless you believe that no such young men exist. In which case, you should just sit back and call Cosby a liar.

Please spare me the underwhelming details. Stay on task and don't resort to silly, irrelevant, off-the-point exaggerated absolutist statements that don't even come close to measuring up to anything said.

_After all is said and done, what he said is the truth. Bottom line._

That's your story and you're sticking to it! lol
I guess that's all you got. All you can retreat to. "He told the "truth" (eventhough his points were wildly exaggerated, not told in any perspective, not qualified or quantified - at least not accurately - and definitely not some magical relevation.) Again, he did the preacher thing of speaking about "sin". And by golly he actually spoke about the sins we commit. I wonder how he does that? Roll Eyes

I am not one of those people who cares where the truth comes from more than I care about the truth itself. You see, the truth is important to me, no matter where it comes from.

Bullsh-t!! Ebony, you know I know you better than that. You're good for stating pretentious things...

Now, if a White person says "Black are stupid and can't learn."

And how many Whites that are criticize (or presumed "racist") come right out and say that, Ebony? Fact of the matter is if someone White said the exact same thing Cosby did then the conversation would NOT be that they "spoke the truth" but it would be more about their motive and mindset. You and I both know that. I don't know who you think you're fooling with this BS.

We would presume that that's what most White people would be saying by tone alone if nothing else. Not explicit, "Blacks are stupid" necessary. And you know that.

Anyway... I'm with everyone else. I definitely give Cosby way more credibility than you're avg. White person, etc. But that still doesn't make him beyond criticism. And, further, no one here cannot say what I've said is not very constructive towards those ends. Why shouldn't someone of Cosby's stature establish educational foundation(s) that rival (or seek to compete) with the Voucher foundation(s) for example?

Why shouldn't we be talking about that instead of saying AMEN! and just being glad he does "something"?

Yes, I take expection to that, because it's not the TRUTH. I don't have to respect the truth teller to respect the truth. Bush says Black homeownership is at it's highest level .. well, that's true. Does that mean I have to respect Bush?? I don't think so.

Can you say something that's consistent?
First you start out saying something about someone [White] saying something you do not and will not accept as "truth" and go on to say you have no obligation to respect them. Well, of course, you don't especially when their statements if not their conclusions are NOT true - "Blacks are stupid." = conclusion.

(I don't see how Cosby's comments are much different in conclusion except for granting him some leeway because you've made assumptions about him in 'considering the source'... And so the plot thickens!)

Anyway... with you saying all this then what seems to be the hang up. Taking you're axiom, I don't have to respect Bill Cosby. So what's the problem here? Why is everyone like you here trying to defend him and act as if he should be respected?

If you're going to say something like that at least have the integrity to respect it in practice. So, no! Just like an ignorant White person who shoots off at the mouth in condescending fashion, I don't take condescension for a Black person anymore readily.

Tell me, Nmaginate, do you care about the numbers of young black men going to jail or prison? Do you care about the dropout rate of the Black community? Are you in any way concerned about the numbers of Black children growing up without any kind of positive male figure in their lives? Do you even think it's important that they should have one?

Awwwwwwwww.... C'mon... Can we actually deal with substantive things here? I mean why do we (you) have to go to idiotic extremes by way of suggesting that perhaps I'm not "concerned", etc., etc. and so-and-so because I'm not in Cosby's AMEN! section?

I criticize Cosby exactly because of my concern. What I say and anyone else is not mutually exclusive from that deep heartfelt concern I think we all have. So what is all this rhetorics about Ebony?

What? If I don't sing Cosby's praises (saying I'm glad he spoke out, etc.) then I'm not concerned?

When and how did Cosby become the Litmus test?

Or, let me back up ... do you even believe that Black children are dropping out of school in any significant numbers?

Significant numbers is something pretty different from what Cosby said. 50% is what he used in an unqualified fashion as if to paint some type of picture that just happened to fit all so nicely into his whole "God Is Tired Of You!" condemnation routine.

Your questions are ridiculous. Again, my criticism of Cosby are not mutually exclusive of having concern or acknowledging the reality of our condition. And see... that's just it. I don't separate our people into "these" Lower Economic people (and the rest of us) like Cosby did. That would be one overarching issue I take exception with Cosby with. (That would be what the term Elist was suppose to long since convey.)

Or that there are Black kids today that cannot read to their grade level? Is it your belief that there are no Black parents in the inner city who don't do an adequate job of parenting?

Ebony... Why do you ask such idoitic questions?
Where have I said anything resembling anything you have asked in these off-the-point questions?
quote:
His statements are no more true about Blacks or even Lower Economic people than anyone else. A big part of the ":Acting White" and Black culture and family "devaluing education" dealt with middle class families... middle class families where parental involvement was lacking or not up to par.

Silly Ebony... That was long since an acknowledgement of the "truth" and also highlighting how selective Cosby's outrage was. Now, I wonder why you haven't in all this time acknowledged that the "truth" of the matter goes beyond the "Lower Economic" people...

Perhaps you cannot see the truth in Cosby's statements because your own truths are totally different.
:rolleye:

Perhaps my azz!! Your rhetorical suggestions of the most simplistic and idiotic, non-following stuff doesn't qualify "my truths" as totally different or even different at all.

Hyperbole and assorted BS will get you nowhere.

Quote me where I've said anything as idiotic as your lame little questions suggest. "Do you believe..."

Ebony you reductionism/deductionism is incredulous. If I don't jump up and down with Cosby shouting AMEN! just because he can preach about "sin"... *emphasis on preach (and that's pretty much it)*... then I must not believe that "sin" exist.

Where the hell did you go to logic school trying that BS? lol
quote:
He's just calling on people to stop engaging in behavior, well within their control, that would hold them back even in the absence of racism.

Well, how do you reconcile his actual statements.

"With all the systemic problems of racism, the solution is parenting."

Tell me how true and accurate this statement is.
Tell me how that amounts to what you're saying. I contend that what you're saying and what Cosby said is different. Perhaps you get off on rhetoric like that and it does something for you but I'm not impressed.

What's "well within our control" collectively or individually is understood. But what I quoted is the overriding tone of Cosby's speech along with the corollary "In all of this work we can not blame white people", "Brown versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem".

First you can tell me how accurate those statements are - without adjusting to what you understand Cosby to be saying (or would take from what he said) as opposed to what he actually said. Then tell me how what I've said is exclusive doing just that, doing what's well within our control.

There just happens to be some built-in exceptions for Cosby. He doesn't have to do what's well within his control to directly impact and deal with what he wants to preach about. He has the luxury where he can just talk about it if he so chooses to. Funny how that works...

And even though a lot of black people are upset with him for it, the majority of us, I suspect, are quietly raising a fist in the air in agreement.

And obviously this dubious "majority" seems to want to act like they can't understand why Cosby is not above criticism and has said things worthy of criticism.

Bill Cosby & The Flap That Wasn't
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/26/opinion/meyer/main619640.shtml

It's a lot of Black people like myself who have long since acknowledged the problems and have long since notice the absence of the Cosby's, etc. who are not at all impressed with Bill's posturing. There just happens to be "a lot" of us how are beyond the "talking" phases and don't get worked up because someone says the obvious and naturally take exception when someone exaggerates for whatever reason to try to make a point.

Yes! A silent "majority" of us might want to raise our fist and condescend just like Cosby but I hardly see that as an admirable trait.
Nmaginate,

Speaking solely for myself, I in no way critizing your right to your opinion ... nor your opinion itself. You, Cosby, me, and everyone else on this board as every right to feel as they do about any subject or discussion ... and I would be the first to stand up and fight with/for you or anybody else to state it! Smile In fact, I believe I have already agreed with you that, Cosby for instance, could certainly do more than he has done (even though I don't know for sure what that is or isn't, from my personal investigation). But still, as there is always more that needs to be done, he and others can always certainly do more.

You want to critize or chastise Cosby for his statements ... I don't have a problem with that. I'm more than willing to listen to what those complaints are and change my opinion to yours if I believe those complaints are valid. By the same token, I am not trying to convince you that my opinions should also be yours. What you think is right and what I think is right may be (and usually are Smile) two different things. And I have no problem with that. That doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means we disagree.

But is seems as if, although I can find "rights" and "truths" within your opinions about this subject, you don't afford any of the same in opinions opposed to yours. Nobody has said Cos walks on water. Nobody has said he is infallible. Nobody has said he is the best thing that ever happened to Black people. However, it has been said that there was some truth to the statements he made. And you have called them, "unqualified" and "myth" and fallicies, "ramblings", "exaggerations" ... and my personal favorite "debunked" theories.

To me, this would imply that you found no truth in what he said. That may be your opinion. You obviously don't like what he said or like him for saying it. But to say what he said has no validity to it is a whole other thing. Two things, which in my opinion, can be combined to make your opinion one in which I could more readily agree with. However, agreement is not necessary for me to respect your opinion. Is it necessary for you to respect mine?
Nmag, I don't really understand your first point. What he said about the systemic problems of racism in no way impacts my statement that you quoted. Even in the absence of racism, the key is parenting. If racism were to disappear, the disproportionate problems would still exist, because it's still up to the people affected to handle the business that they have the ability to handle. Therefore, it should be obvious that while racism does exist, this imperative is at least as crucial.

As far as "built-in exceptions" for Cosby, that's nonsense. The things he's talking about don't apply to him. He did the things he urges others to do, and then some. Just because a man who focused on excellence and achievement and on comporting himself toward making something of himself, also has cheated on his wife, that doesn't mean he shouldn't tell others to comport themselves towards excellence and achievement. And he can say it as harshly as he wants to if he thinks it's common sense. What he CAN'T harshly criticize others for, however, is cheating on their wives.

Doing what's within your control, to keep yourself from living in a state of mindlessness and hopelessness, is something we all should do. Unless Cosby is guilty of not doing that, there's no double standard, no matter what else we think he should do for somebody else.
quote:
I would like to see him support these efforts as well. - VOX

VOX, I respect you a lot - the way you present your perspective, etc. But the difference (I guess) between me and you on this issue is that I don't see one as being any different than the other.

That is, I don't grant any deference to Cosby for not supporting such efforts any more than we grant to the "Lower Economic" people for "doing what's well within their control". I don't have such double-standards. And that's how I regard them.

Cosby should do what's well within his control, influence, etc. just like everyone else.

As the saying goes,
"To Whom Much Is Given Much Is Expected."

And I'm not asking for Cosby to do anything more than what he's already doing. He can keep running his mouth. All I'm saying is that he can do it towards some constructive ends. And that's where the differing views come in.

"A lot of us" don't see his words as constructive but rather as condescending and condemning (and a lot of us have heard that or even voiced that ourselves... it's like overkill, IMO). On the other hand, this silent "majority" of yours glory in the fact that he said something that's been said, "Many Times Many Ways"...

WOW!!

I'm still trying to see what him saying something is suppose to do. I'm sorry but I've always been the type of 'church member' (literally and figuratively) who preferred a Preacher Who Teaches vs. a Preacher Who Merely Preaches (To Get AMEN! by way of condemnation, etc.). Sorry if I'm expecting something substantive out of the whole Cosby thing... and I think in his own way maybe he is because he seems to be on a crusade. But, I for one don't get excited, as FAHEEM alluded to, when someone who just got religion decides he's been called to preach as if as soon as he's "baptized" he can hit the ground running and start preaching to knowledgeable members in the 'church' as if we don't know what he just seemingly learned.

Again, if anything, his "I'm tired" routine seems a bit misplaced when people who are in the trenches everyday say in essence, "I ain't tired yet... and tired is not in my vocabulary." You can't dismiss the sum total of what Cosby said for picking out the selective parts that resonate with you and then assume all that BS is suppose to resonate with everyone of us.

Black people, especially poorer ones and those that work in poorer communities have been seeing through sh!t for a long time. One of the things I'll always remember and hold dear from my experiences volunteering is the words of one of my Boys & Girls Clubs directors. He said, "If you're not committed to being here [then don't waste these kids time and play with their emotions.]"

I don't think I need to say more about Mr. Cosby and his being "tired"...
quote:
Even in the absence of racism, the key is parenting. If racism were to disappear, the disproportionate problems would still exist, because it's still up to the people affected to handle the business that they have the ability to handle.

The point is that that is not what he said.
That's what you said. Yet you offered your version, in essence, as an interpretation of what he did.

He made the equation that PARENTING will erase RACISM or that it is the solution to racism. Something so absurd that I don't know how anyone would even dare to in any way try to defend such lunacy.

As far as your point, that's understood. So now what?
"With all the systemic racism that pounds at us every day, there is nothing that will defeat parenting."

That's what he said. Now, I don't read from this, that "parenting will erase racism, so people won't be racist." I suppose I could be wrong, but I seriously doubt it.

As for the now what... good question. SInce the TBWT days, I have maintained that the key to black uplift in this country is to create a movement that promotes, on a large scale, the ideals of self-improvement. The right message of personal and family responsibility, connecting with objective principles of excellence and self-respect (what I call "natural" or "objective morality"), put forward to the masses in a way that energizes, galvanizes, and electrifies, along, of course, with some specific action plans on a large scale, is what's needed. Not that I think we're all that far from it now, but that's what I think is necessary.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Never mind ... you last response to me pretty much answered my last question and final one I ever intend to ask someone who thinks I'm "idiotic." Frown

Check and mate.

You can act like you want to take it personal all you want. But when someone says something as silly as you did, using the most ridiculous deductions as you have - deductions not based on anything I've said - then you or whoever deserves to be called IDIOTIC for trying to use such weak and irrelevant rhetoric to make an asinine point.

Check this... quote me where I've said any of the things you questioned in the way you tried to suggest in idiotic, absolutist extremes.

e.g. Where did I say:
[1] That I don't "care about the numbers of young black men going to jail or prison"
> AND WHAT WOULD MAKE YOU ASK OR SUGGEST THAT I DON'T...

[2] That I don't "care about the dropout rate of the Black community"
> AND WHAT WOULD MAKE YOU ASK OR MAKE YOU SUGGEST THAT I DON'T...

[2-a] That I don't "believe that Black children are dropping out of school in any significant numbers", significant enough to be something to be concerned about.
> AND WHAT WOULD MAKE YOU ASK OR SUGGEST THAT I DON'T...

[3] That I'm not "concerned about the numbers of Black children growing up without any kind of positive male figure in their lives" or suggest that it's not "important that they should have one".
> AND WHAT WOULD MAKE YOU ASK OR SUGGEST THAT I DON'T...

[4] That I don't "belie[ve] that there are no Black parents in the inner city who don't do an adequate job of parenting".
> AND WHAT WOULD MAKE YOU ASK OR SUGGEST THAT I DON'T...

Now, Ebony when you're honest and show some intellectual integrity and admit that you have/had no basis in what I've said for that rhetoric then you will also have to admit how idoitic, feable and futile a defense or argument that is for you. You can take personal offense all you want. But its your weak absolutist argument that you chose to present as if it makes some kind of point.

You can share with us exactly and explicitly what that is. No pretenses necessary. No suggestions accepted. Straight talk. If you want to accuse me of not being "concerned" then come right out and say it... but then have the fortitude to show how you can, from our discussion here, logically substantiate such claims.

You can't so that's why you continue to use such Rookie Tactics. Tactics that do nothing for your point.

Try to mate your rhetoric with some real, that relates and follows from this logic while you're out "Checking".

Thank you.

"Is it your belief that there are no Black parents in the inner city who don't do an adequate job of parenting?"

You say something like that and expect it to be treated as something intelligent? Who in the world do you think could ever think that "THERE ARE *NO*" bad parents in the inner-city or otherwise?

When you're ready to ask intelligent questions and use appropriately intelligent and relevant rhetoric then let me know.
quote:
The right message of personal and family responsibility, connecting with objective principles of excellence and self-respect (what I call "natural" or "objective morality"), put forward to the masses in a way that energizes, galvanizes, and electrifies, along, of course, with some specific action plans on a large scale, is what's needed.

That's exactly what, IMO, is being contended with when it comes to Cosby and the like (and you can include B-CON's in that).

The question and contention is that whether Cosby's "message" is the "right" one that will do as you stated and, in essence, motivate and spur on action, individually or collectively.

Seriously, tell me what effect do you think Cosby's speech(es) have on his subject audience, the "Lower Economic" people? What he said/says, seriously, will it "energize, galvanize, and electrify" them? Or is his message more for those of us who like to point the finger and raise our fist because he hasn't said something that explicitly (presumably) implicates us?

I suggest its pretty easy for us to say its all good when he's not (presumably) talking direct about us, individually. The preaching and AMEN! syndrome!

The preacher generally doesn't get as many or as boisterous AMEN's when the sword/truth starts to cut us...
quote:
Originally posted by Nmaginate:
Who in the world do you think could ever think that "THERE ARE *NO*" bad parents in the inner-city or otherwise?


Apparently you ... as Cosby said there were some and you called him a liar.

I asked you simple questions, Nmaginate. To which simple yes or nos would have been appropriate. Unlike you, I didn't define you by saying that you believe that there are no low-income Black parents that are not adequately parenting. I asked you if that was you believe. I will not, like you, put words into the mouths of people I discuss with.

To be honest, I asked the question because due to your tirades, I do question whether or not you believe the answers to any of those questions would be yes!! Eek Do I believe it would make you an idiot? Yes, I do. Do I believe you are one? Not even remotely.

But I could be wrong. We all are at some point. And the only way to know for sure is to ask.

You haven't answered my questions, I still don't think you're an idiot. Nor do I agree with your opinions or assessments. Nor do I disrespect you for having them.

I am personally offended by you and your choice of words directed at me, and as such, I find you much more offensive than I find anything you have said about what you think of Bill Cosby's statements. As I've said, repeatedly, I respect your opinion, and your right to have it. You have reciprocated no such respect. And believe it or not, I even respect your perogative not to do so.

To each his own, Nmaginate. Live and let live.
No no no, Nmag... I don't believe Bill's message IS the right one to the people he's talking about. It IS, however, the right one to people who aren't necessarily in that position, but think like him. My answer to the "now what" question you asked does not involve one guy running around talking. It involves a lot more than that, and a lot more than what I have yet figured out. But Cosby has fired an effective salvo in ONE sense. I don't think many of us are ready yet for what I'm proposing, but I do think Cosby speaking for those who are ready helps put a chink in the armor of what up until now has been a self-destructive subculture that has come too close to dominating black culture in this country. The more criticism and attack leveled at it, the easier the eventual message will be able to get through to the people who most need to respond to it.
I'm more than willing to listen to what those complaints are and change my opinion to yours if I believe those complaints are valid.

Spare me the pretense. I've made my "complaints" known in specific detail.

By the same token, I am not trying to convince you that my opinions should also be yours.

The use for that statement??

That doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means we disagree.

And that one?

But is seems as if, although I can find "rights" and "truths" within your opinions about this subject, you don't afford any of the same in opinions opposed to yours.

How do you qualify/quantify that?
At best that's subjective... because I've not stated sufficiently enough for you something that resembles "Bottom line, he spoke the truth."??

What am I suppose to say when I don't respect the messenger because of his overall message and how I perceive it? I perceive to be almost exactly like a racist White person who says, in essence, "Blacks are stupid" but never uses those words explicitly. There are all levels of self-hatred, classism, etc. amongst Blacks... I see Cosby's words as no different, essentially. No less condescending or paternalistic. PERIOD!

You don't see it that way. Fine!
But you can hardly base that on the whole entire "message" he presented. You have to selectively extract those "truths". I look at the entire content, context, and tone of his "message".

Nobody has said Cos walks on water. Nobody has said he is infallible. Nobody has said he is the best thing that ever happened to Black people. However, it has been said that there was some truth to the statements he made.

Ebony why do you have to be so disingenuous?

Saying, "Bottom line what he said was the truth" is hardly the equivalent to saying "there was SOME truth" to what he said.


And you have called them, "unqualified" and "myth" and fallicies, "ramblings", "exaggerations" ... and my personal favorite "debunked" theories.

To me, this would imply that you found no truth in what he said. That may be your opinion.


NO! That would be your opinion.
In order for something to be exaggerated it has to be based on some known value or idea in order to noticeably deviate from it.

Here you go again arguing from ridiculous extremes and absolutes. Saying he exaggerated does not and cannot logically ever equate to saying there is absolutely *NO* truth or no nothing, something or another.

That's really the function of either you inability to think critically or your ineptitude when it comes to making an argument (and truthfully representing the arguments of others) or some combination of both.

What you said isn't logical. It doesn't follow.
Again, if I say he exaggerated, however, strongly doesn't in any way suggest that I think what he said is non-existant. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, Ebony.

You obviously don't like what he said or like him for saying it. But to say what he said has no validity to it is a whole other thing.

Quote me. Where did I say what he said, in absolute terms, has NO validity?

Two things, which in my opinion, can be combined to make your opinion one in which I could more readily agree with. However, agreement is not necessary for me to respect your opinion. Is it necessary for you to respect mine?

Will you stop with the juvenile suggestions.
You start this whole post I'm responding to with saying "it just means that we disagree". Now, you're wanting something whereby we can come to some agreement.

Which is Ebony? Can you accept that we don't agree or do you have to in some way express your point (as weakly as you have) for us to come to agreement?

I perfectly comfortable with us being in disagreement. I've only stated my opinion and could care less if you agree with one iota. I don't state my opinion to convince and haven't perceived that we were trying to reach common ground on this nor have I had that expectation.

I wish you would be consistent in the things you say. If you believe we can disagree and that we simply do then, sobeit. Leave it at that. If you feel we need to find points on which we agree then we can do that too. But don't state one then come back and insist on the other as if you have been consistent in your presentation.

That would be why you preface your remarks with all that BS - "I am not trying to convince you that my opinions should also be yours. "

Hmmm....

I'm not here to talk about your opinions or you per se. So what's your purpose in stating all that stuff that, for one, I have never questioned or even showed a concern for?

You statements are like a White person pre-emptively stating (unprovoked, that is), "I'm not racist." I think we all know or suspect why such things are said. It would seem to me most of what you said fall into that same type of "I need to convince myself and them" type of category.

It's unnecessary BS, IMO.
I don't come here and discuss things under the pretense of "convincing" anyone of anything. I can't help it if my passion and perhaps the persuasiveness of my arguments make you want to assume otherwise. You ought to be able to come up with more compelling and substantiated arguments in defense if that's what you think...

That's my opinion of why you would even begin to fell that I desire or require "agreement" for my to respect your opinion.

(And there again, another inconsistency in the things you present. Now, you want there to be "respect" for opinions of people who present a certain message when you laid down the axiom that we don't have to "respect" those that make statements we don't entirely agree with or even, I guess, if we don't 'agree' with or respect who said it - i.e. Bush.

Now, how do you qualify/quantify/substantiate that I don't "respect" your opinion? Because I don't let your BS arguments and weak defenses fly? C'mon Ebony!)
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
No no no, Nmag... I don't believe Bill's message IS the right one to the people he's talking about.

VOX, even more respect for you my brother... on that we wholeheartedly agree and that's the reason for, IMO, me and "a lot" of us being "upset".
quote:
It IS, however, the right one to people who aren't necessarily in that position, but think like him.

I can agree and was about to say that (if I hadn't already).

quote:
My answer to the "now what" question you asked does not involve one guy running around talking. It involves a lot more than that, and a lot more than what I have yet figured out.

That was, in fact, my purpose for stating what I felt Cosby and the like should do in terms of fostering or founding schools to address those things. It's been long overdue, IMO.

It's, IMO, a constructive suggestion. Something that can help "figure" things out and something that implicates us all. Something 'they' can do that will energize, galvanize, etc. IMO.

But Cosby has fired an effective salvo in ONE sense.

And, essentially, I don't have a problem with that but you and I both know that the way his speeches were perceived that they were not understood to be aimed at people like him. Instead, most or all the focus was on what the "Lower Economic" people must do. In essence, what I have said, admittedly, is the counterbalance of that.

I don't think many of us are ready yet for what I'm proposing

Perhaps we can talk about that.
Again, you are someone I have the upmost respect for eventhough we approach this from different angles... somewhat.

The more criticism and attack leveled at it, the easier the eventual message will be able to get through to the people who most need to respond to it.

I would only say that you run the risk, like they say of coaches in various sports, of having people start to tune you out when there are few if any actions that follow such rhetoric.
The outspoken Bill Cosby
Comedian challenges African-American community



(CNN) -- You don't want to get Bill Cosby angry.

And Bill Cosby is angry.

Cosby's ire is focused at the African-American community: its rates of juvenile delinquency, its parenting, the coarse language of its youth. You can do better, he exhorts his audiences. Don't let yourself be victims, and especially don't let the poorest in the community let themselves be victims.

"This is about little children ... and people not giving them better choices," he told Paula Zahn in an interview for CNN's "Paula Zahn Now." "Talking. Talking. Parenting. Correctly parenting. That's what it's about. And you can't blame other things. You got to -- you got to straighten up your house. Straighten up your apartment. Straighten up your child."

This is not the smiling, avuncular commercial spokesman for Jell-O and Coca-Cola. This is not the wisecracking tennis coach of "I Spy," or the jokey stand-up comedian of "Bill Cosby Is a Very Funny Fellow ... Right" and "To Russell, My Brother, Whom I Slept With," or the fast-talking guy of "Uptown Saturday Night."

This Bill Cosby is more like the man who told his TV son Theo, "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out of it" in an early episode of "The Cosby Show."

Times 10.

And he doesn't care who knows it. Some of his critics have attacked him for airing what they see as the black community's dirty laundry in public. Others said that Cosby should also be condemning establishment institutions that, in their view, helped create the situation.

"Judgment of the people in the situation is not helpful. How can you help them is the question," said hip-hop mogul Russell Simmons, founder of Def Jam Records and the Phat Farm clothing line.

Let 'em rant, Cosby says.

"Let them stay mad as long as they don't have good sense," he told Zahn. "I don't care what right-wing white people are thinking. ... How long you gonna whisper about a smallpox epidemic in your apartment building when bodies are coming out under the sheets?"
Focus on education

To get the message out, Cosby has organized and continues to organize town hall meetings in inner city communities where community leaders -- from police chiefs to district attorneys to parents to schoolteachers -- get everyone to talk about how to help give kids better choices.

Cosby first caused controversy after making a speech at a celebration of the 50th anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education, the landmark Supreme Court decision that struck down school segregation.

"People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around. ... The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal. These people are not parenting," he said, addressing an audience of Washington VIPs.

"Brown versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem. We have got to take the neighborhood back. ... They are standing on the corner and they can't speak English."

A number of commentators have defended Cosby, including NAACP President Kweisi Mfume, who shared the dais with Cosby, and black newspaper columnists Clarence Page and Leonard Pitts Jr.

"He's pissed a lot of people off," Kevin McCaskill, principal of a vocational high school in Springfield, Massachusetts, told "Paula Zahn Now." McCaskill has worked with Cosby on educational programs. "[But] he simply said this is what is occurring, what are we going to do about it, without excuses. ... It's not about Kevin McCaskill nor do I think it's about Bill Cosby. It's about what do we have to offer to make people the best they can possibly be."

Cosby has a longstanding interest in education. The actor earned a Ph.D. in the subject from the University of Massachusetts and has made shows, such as the Saturday morning cartoon "Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids," with an emphasis on teaching. (Indeed, "Fat Albert" was the subject of his dissertation.)

The comedian is also symbolic of what he preaches. Raised in a poor Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, neighborhood, he dropped out of high school to join the Navy but later earned his diploma through a correspondence course.

He acknowledges he could push the limits as a youngster. A teacher called him "a schemer with a high IQ."

But, he told Zahn, "what kept me out of trouble is going right to the edge and then ... thinking that my mother would be embarrassed, and that I didn't want to embarrass her, and that my father would be embarrassed, and I just didn't want to do that to my family."

He earned a football scholarship to the city's Temple University and worked nights as a bartender -- which is how his comedy talent was discovered.

In the 1960s, Cosby was a trailblazer. Other black comedians of the time focused their routines around race; Cosby told tales of childhood. On the other hand, Cosby was one of the first African-Americans to star in a TV series, "I Spy" -- and received equal billing with his co-star, Robert Culp, to boot. He won three Emmys for his performance in the series. His comedy LPs won Grammys.
'Make them think'

"The Cosby Show," which began in 1984 and was TV's No. 1 series for several years, cemented Cosby's status. The show didn't talk down to its audience and simply assumed the success of its black characters: Cosby's obstetrician, Dr. Cliff Huxtable; his lawyer wife, Clair; their five children and, later, grandchild; and their comfortable life in the upscale New York City neighborhood of Brooklyn Heights.

"When it came time for the Huxtables, it was off of my routines," he told CNN. "And I was watching television and I noticed that a number of television series had these little ... children who were brighter than the parents."

He wanted to change that around.

"Our children ... were never brought up to feel that comfortable that they could call the parents stupid. First of all, they're not working. They're homeless," he told Zahn with some amused exasperation. "You can't do that."

Cosby's career hasn't always run smoothly. An early '70s series, "The Bill Cosby Show," and a mid-'70s variety effort, "Cos," both tanked. He made two movies during the "Cosby Show" run, "Leonard Part 6" and "Ghost Dad," both of which failed at the box office.

There's no guarantee that his education and parenting crusade will pay off, either. As a 67-year-old multimillionaire entertainer old enough to be the crotchety grandfather of today's teens, he knows it's going to be hard to make people listen.

But he's going to try, full speed ahead.

"When I say, 'I don't care what white people think,' I mean that. I mean, I'm addressing my people, period," he told CNN. "I'm telling you. I want all this loud profanity in the street stopped. ... I want you to stop doing things that are detrimental to your getting at least an education with a high school credential. I'm talking to the people who are dropping out."

Even if all this means taking a hit in his popularity?

"Maya Angelou said, 'You know, Bill, you're a very nice man, but you have a big mouth,' " he said. "So I just want to be the big mouth and make them work, make them work, make ... make them think."
Sooo...He dropped out of high school huh? Why is he so hard on the youth then? Obviousley he went through a stage where he didn't do what he was supposed to. He would have been "sagging" on the street corner with everyone else. But he seems to not mention that too much. Plus, why was his original complaint given to an audience of D.C. elites? If he is going to speak about a particluar demographic of us folks(lower economic Africans in America)...shouldn't he have been talking to members of that group when ranting? The whole problem is he was bitching to the elites! Like they give a rats ass. At least now he figured out he needed to take his ass into the community to talk to the people. But the initial elitist harm is done...I don't know how successful he will be with his further ventures. It's kinda like catching a friend talking behind your back and then they try to confront you anout the same issue. You know they weren't really planning on dealing with you directly unless they were busted. So anything else they say or do is tainted. I have mixed feelings about Cosby...He seems to be classist and is stereotyping.
Why does everyone keep trying to justify Cosby's stero-typing of an entire class of people.

We know that he is right in what he is saying, but what he is right about only applies to some people OF ALL CLASSES OF PEOPLE, however, no one wants to admit that; and no one wants to admit that people of lower economic levels are the ones most exploited by the media and racist and classist stero-typing.
But I am sure that Cosby gives a redneck the benefit of the doubt that he/she was parented, etc.----I doubt that he assumes that blanket stero-type about anyone else.

As a person who grew up one of the so called lower class (and I don't mean that I was ever hungry, starving, homeless, lacking any necessities), I say:

No, you are not going to blame me for all of the social ills of America nor are you going to blame me for all of the social ills of African America, especially when blame of social ills of either is or should be equally shared by all those that contribute to it regardless of class, race, gender, religon, whatever.

I wonder how much the republicans are paying him for this propaganda.
quote:
Originally posted by sunnubian:
Why does everyone keep trying to justify Cosby's stero-typing of an entire class of people.

We know that he is right in what he is saying, but what he is right about only applies to some people OF ALL CLASSES OF PEOPLE, however, no one wants to admit that; and no one wants to admit that people of lower economic levels are the ones most exploited by the media and racist and classist stero-typing.
But I am sure that Cosby gives a redneck the benefit of the doubt that he/she was parented, etc.----I doubt that he assumes that blanket stero-type about anyone else.

As a person who grew up one of the so called lower class (and I don't mean that I was ever hungry, starving, homeless, lacking any necessities), I say:

No, you are not going to blame me for all of the social ills of America nor are you going to blame me for all of the social ills of African America, especially when blame of social ills of either is or should be equally shared by all those that contribute to it regardless of class, race, gender, religon, whatever.

I wonder how much the republicans are paying him for this propaganda.


I agree, and a very good question!
Oshun Auset and Sunnubian ... I offer this, just from a different perspective, as possible answers to your questions. I would preface this this 'I'm not trying to start a fight here' ... but, talking about Bill Cosby always seems to begin one! Big Grin But again, I'm not critizing your opinions, just offering a different one, k? Smile

quote:
By Oshun Auset:
Sooo...He dropped out of high school huh? Why is he so hard on the youth then?


Perhaps for the same reason that ex-convicts go to schools and "scare kids straight" or have programs within in prisons whereby they tell kids not to do what they did!! When you hear something from someone who's been there and done that, it tends to lend a little weight to the subject. I, myself, have always been one who learned from other people's mistakes! I see somebody do something that hurts or get them in trouble, I'm going to be much more prone to "just say no".

And ...

quote:
By Sunnubian:
We know that he is right in what he is saying, but what he is right about only applies to some people OF ALL CLASSES OF PEOPLE, however, no one wants to admit that;


I am one of those people who do admit that. And I don't believe I'm alone, but I get your drift. However, I also am one of those people who (as Cosby said tonight) I really don't care what anybody/everybody else (right-wing whites or anybody else) thinks. I care about my people. Black people. Whoever else may be facing the same problems as my people are, well ... okay. That's fine. Or not fine. Whatever the case may be. But, when it comes to Black people, I am very, very much concerned.

I think the complaint is that he targeted Black people. As a Black man, I believe he has every right to. Kinda along the same lines as the use of the "N" word. Whether you approve of that word or not, it is never okay when a White person says it, but may be "acceptable" when a Black person does. Confused
This is an excerpt from tonight's show:

quote:
Here's the point: poor people are more vulnerable to being incapable of dealing with their children in successful ways. Not that they don't have moral insight, not that they don't have the courage to step forth and be personally responsible. They don't have the resources to support their impulse to be moral.



I am waiting for the media fallout from this statement!! Eek Perhaps I don't have a complete understanding of what is being said ... but, exactly what type of "resource" is needed for a parent to know whether or not their child is failing in school? Or where the child is at night? Or who his/her friends are? Is he saying that one has to have money in order to know that it's not right to allow your child to know all the latest lyrics to the new popular rap song, but not how to mulitply? Or to not parade three or four 'baby's daddy's' in front of your children?

Is he saying that just wanting to do the right thing is not enough for a poor person? I happen to know "poor people" who were able to raise wonderful, successful children, with merely the "impulse to be moral"!! If one wants to be a good parent, wants to do the right thing, wants to be concerned about the people their children grow up to be, what type of "resource" is needed to accomplish that? A desire to live by moral standards is not enough? Confused
Ebony I have no idea why you are so bewildered and impressed by Bill Cosby saying the things he is saying. Bill is doing nothing more than repeating the mantra of those who seek to sustain Americas system of white supremacy by espousing that Black folk condition is due to the lack of this elusive personal responsibility thus white folk status in this society is the result of an inordinate amount of personal responsibility found only in their communities. Bill Cosby also believe in the false idea that Black folk should be ok with having to work twice as hard as white folk for the same results, this is the slave thinking that maintains Americas structural racist system. So I will ask you the same question I ask those who challenged what I wrote on Black Introspection about Education and Personal rfesponsibility.

How do you reconcile your belief that Black parental involvement in their child's life or the lack there of is what cause our children to do poorly in school when it is proven that when our children are taking out of these broken down, under funded schools with teachers that have low expectation of our children and put in a good school they perform at the level as the children who were already attending the better schools? They parents did not change, they still live in the same community, the only thing that changed is the school that they attend and that along brought about change in their life.

The truth is Black parents are doing the best they can with the resources available to them and white parents are not as involved as some folk think they are and yet the schools their children attend still educate them properly. Black folk have gotten so use to hearing white folk beat us down through their various media outlets that we are now repeating their white supremacist beliefs as if it is our own and Black folk that know better are jumping on the bandwagon. Faheem is not fooled and for the life of me I do not understand how you have been so thoroughly fooled Ebony.
Removing all of the hyperbole that framed Cosby's message, the fact that so many of our kids are in bad schools does require greater parental involvement to offset it. I am not apologizing for Cosby. My perspective on his comments are well established.

Faheem, I agree with your post 100%. I do not believe that black parents are any less active in their children's' lives than white parents. Nevertheless, because we find ourselves disproportionately in those bad schools, there is, for better or worse, a greater responsibility on our shoulders to go the extra mile for our kids. That means both spending the extra time with them on academic matters, but also working the system to try to change it to our benefit.
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And ...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Sunnubian:
We know that he is right in what he is saying, but what he is right about only applies to some people OF ALL CLASSES OF PEOPLE, however, no one wants to admit that;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I am one of those people who do admit that. And I don't believe I'm alone, but I get your drift. However, I also am one of those people who (as Cosby said tonight) I really don't care what anybody/everybody else (right-wing whites or anybody else) thinks. I care about my people. Black people. Whoever else may be facing the same problems as my people are, well ... okay. That's fine. Or not fine. Whatever the case may be. But, when it comes to Black people, I am very, very much concerned.

I think the complaint is that he targeted Black people. As a Black man, I believe he has every right to. Kinda along the same lines as the use of the "N" word. Whether you approve of that word or not, it is never okay when a White person says it, but may be "acceptable" when a Black person does.
_______________________________________________

I have to kindly disagree, I do not think that his happening to be Black excuses his blanket stero-typing. I further believe that because he happens to be a Black man that America/the world listens to and that he knows that VERY WELL, he should not make blanket statements that engulf an entire race or class or people, since he will be believed wholeheartedly more so than any other person, any other Black person in America. But more importantly, as I have said before, because it simply is not true.
Evidently Bill Cosby only sees African Americans the way white America and the rest of the world sees us, through the eyes of media/hollywood lenses. We are people, human beings, not abstract characatures/characters played by actors on a movie/t.v. screen; we are not a monolethist group of people or some science finction alien hybrid that is all connected to one brain.

When they show a Black person on t.v. or in a movie doing something horrific, then America assumes that that is the way we all think or what anyone of us would do or is capable of doing, never contemplating that African Americans are just a horrified by what is flashed across the media/news screen or the lyrics of hardcore rap songs.

What Cosby is doing, even if it is not his intention (though, I now have my doubts, especially since years ago, if I am not mistaken or getting him mixed up with another famous Black personality, i.e., stero-typing myself, didn't he use to brag or proclaim to be a republican); what he is doing is just plain and simple stero-typing and trying to force an entire class of people into a box, into one box, regardless of evidence to the contrary of his blanket assertions.

If we cannot accomplish anything else, we should vow to not allow people to stero-type us and force us into one social, intellectual, cultural, or otherwise, box-----don't you know or remember, that we have been forced in that box before----Jim Crow, Segregation, White Supremecy Theories, Mis-interpretations of Darwin's Theory----why should we roll over into to the box for Bill Cosby, all of a sudden----he has to be much more than Black or human to convince me that I belong to a particular box, especially one where all the blame for the negatives of society will be shoved in there with me so that America can have one big scapegoat, all contained neatly and cowed down for all of America's bigots.
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
Faheem, I agree with your post 100%. I do not believe that black parents are any less active in their children's' lives than white parents. Nevertheless, because we find ourselves disproportionately in those bad schools, there is, for better or worse, a greater responsibility on our shoulders to go the extra mile for our kids. That means both spending the extra time with them on academic matters, but also working the system to try to change it to our benefit.


Ahh, so you get it MBM as do Sunnubian. Unfortunately Bill Cosby is not saying what you have written he is going from city to city saying that Black men and women need to perform some inordinate amount of Personal and Parental responsibility to solve our many issues as if the lack of these things created them. Bill Cosby would not get the press coverage he has received if he was going from city to city saying that Black men and women must do twice the work as white folk and practice a form of self responsibility not found in any community in America because the public school system is failing our children and this government does not seem interested in fixing it.

As I said on the first page of this thread, Bill Cosby is a clown that is going from city to city speaking down to Black folk and reinforcing America's structural racist system.
Faheem ...

I think I know where you are misunderstanding me.

In a nutshell, it seems like you and I are seeing the problem with this differently, in that I believe that you are more or less using the same "blanket" type senarios that you contend Cosby used during his original statements. To me it is inconceivable to consider that all Black parents, all poor parents, all of anything or anybody can be grouped together and painted with the same brush. And so, in essence I don't even go there. I do not believe (and not that it isn't true, but I just can't see it that way) that what he said or meant was meant to include every poor or every black family in the inner city. I simply see that as an impossibility. For example, you couldn't even group every poster on this board with one word, one description, or one blanket statement, even though we ALL post here and have that in common. Yet, someone could say to somebody else, "Those posters on AA.org ....(and for the sake of argument, let's fill in the blank with 'are smart' or 'are stupid' or 'are Black' or 'are wiser than most people', whatever)" and they still couldn't encompass all of us ... even though the phrase "those posters" would conceivably mean everybody!! So there, I think, is one of the major differences between us.

With that being said I would like to address this issue you brought up:

quote:
How do you reconcile your belief that Black parental involvement in their child's life or the lack there of is what cause our children to do poorly in school when it is proven that when our children are taking out of these broken down, under funded schools with teachers that have low expectation of our children and put in a good school they perform at the level as the children who were already attending the better schools? They parents did not change, they still live in the same community, the only thing that changed is the school that they attend and that along brought about change in their life.


I do not have such a belief regarding "Black parental involvement" such as as you speak of. There are, and I know personally, Black children who are from broken homes, who went to low-performing schools, and/or had teachers who totally sucked who were still able to succeed in life. Not all Black children or all Black parents fit into any one specific mold.

However, let's take a Black child, one of which anyone of us may know of personally, but all of us do know is not a myth ... one whose Momma/Daddy cares more about going to the club than sitting down to do homework with him/her; one whose parent(s) has never been to the child's school to check on his/her progress; one whose parent(s) buys him/her the latest gameboy, but never a book; one who knows R. Kelly's whole album, but reads at 2 levels below his/her present grade level; one whose parent(s) buys drugs rather than food; one whose parent(s) aren't even raising him or her, instead leaving that task to a relative for whatever reason. Even if children/parents like these (and I am only talking about Black children and parents like these, because that is my concern and focus) are not the majority of Black children and parents, there are hundreds of thousands, if not millions of them ... and as far as I'm concerned there are far too many of them, and they're numbers are growing everyday.

I fully acknowledge and give the bigget of props to the millions of Black parents and children who are not in the situation as those above ... and, yes, I do know they are out there. I can't speak for Cos, but I suspect he knows the same as well. It's a fact that the Black parent is not a failure because they are a Black parent. And the same goes for the Black child. I can't understand not knowing that, or thinking that there are actually intelligent people out here that don't know that.

But, I do know, and I know you know too, that there are hordes of Black children whose Mommas and Daddys are not stepping up to the plate. They are leaving their children behind. A child who goes to school and is doing studies out of 5 or 10 year old text book can still come home and read up to date information if it is provided to him by his parent. And succeed. A child can speak in hip/hop ebonics and still have excellent command of the English language ... if he/she is taught to do so at home. And succeed.

A child cannot succeed if he/she is going to school, not learning, no one is paying attention, comes home, gets McDonald's for dinner and then watches tv or plays video games until he falls asleep every night, while his/her momma is in the other room, drinking, smoking or partying and working on her next baby's daddy! And, yes, I know those types of parents are out there too! And there's a bunch of them. Most who may happen to live in the inner cities, or who are not educated themselves because they dropped out of school, or who have no parenting skills because they weren't properly parented themselves, or who are too young or immature to know what is really important in life yet.

My point is, not ALL Black parents are doing the best they can with the resources they've got, as you have suggested. In fact, I would call what you said a "blanket statement" which, like any other, simply cannot be true of a whole people. And I really don't care how involved white parents may or may not be in their child's lives .. and white students fail and drop out of school, no matter how "good" it may be. Resources sure as hell may help, but do not determine the success of a student, Black or White.

I do understand what you are trying to say. But believe me, I am not fooled by what you may think I think the media is trying to tell me that Bill said!! Eek Eek I don't need anybody to tell me that there are Black people in this country who are successes AND failures as parents. To me, only someone who can't acknowledge that is truly fooled.

You make the point about Bill sterotyping Black children. But what is a stereo-type? Usually an exaggeration of something that may not be typical but is certainly a reality. It seems like while the exaggeration angers you, the reality part is ignored!! And I may be wrong about that, if I am, I stand corrected. But while you are more upset about the exaggeration, I am more concerned with fixing that reality, which will, in essence eliminate the premise to be exaggerated on! If there were no Black children like he described, then I would be just as mad as you are. But as long as there are such children, and the parents that go with them, I am more concerned about that, than I am mad that someone chose to misrepresent them. And that, too, I suppose, is another issue on which we differ.
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Ebony you talk about fixing the reality but you can not expect me to believe that while you continue to say that Black parents and Black people in general having to work twice as hard as everyone else for the same results is ok. I presented and argument that I believe would best articulate the position Cosby and people like you should take if you want to deal with what you have termed the reality of the situation and not the exaggeration of it.

If you are going to beat Black people over the head with this Personal and Parental responsibility argument then you must say to them that they must do so because if our children are to succeed we need more Personal and Parental responsibility from them to compensate for the failures of the public school system.

You are correct in saying that there are hundreds of children succeeding in spite of the schools they attend being under funded, text books being out dated and teachers being unqualified but the failure rate in these schools are much higher than the success rate especially if the drop out rate is above 50%. Our children must leave these horrible schools and go out into the world and compete with children who did not have to endure such systematic failure and when they are unable to compete, this reflects back on us and is reinforcing the white supremacist belief that Black folk are inherently stupid not to mention people like you and Cosby supporting their arguments thus they use you and Cosby arguments as a reason to end affirmative action.

Even now there are studies out there that speak to Black children being unable to compete with white students on the college level after getting into college by way of Affirmative Action. Your position is most harmful in the end because you assert that our children failures in school is due to bad parenting but when white folk point to Black college students not being able to compete with white students, it is too late to say well they went to a grade school with five year old text books, and the school was poorly funded and the teachers were horrible. You and Cosby miss this point and you are empowering the white argument rather you believe it or not both at the collegiate level and at the grade school level.

Black folk like you and Cosby are doing as big a disservice to black upward mobility as the Negro-Cons do everyday. Those Children that you say succeed in spite of having five year old text books and go on to college are never fully prepared to compete with those who were systematically empowered throughout their life in school and when they use affirmative action and then do not finish school, Affirmative Action is seen as the culprit, the evil entity that put Black folk in schools over systematically empowered white children. Black parents can not be forced nor should there be an unreasonable expectation for them to hold a job, keep house and home school their children which is what it will take to compensate for the systematic failures that plague the public school system while white folk are continuously systematically empowered and collect two hundred million dollars as they pass go.

I can not wait for Michael Eric Dyson to finish his Book "Is Bill Cosby right" I am sure he will say all that I am saying and more.
You know it is interesting; I guess I have always known it but never articulated it until just now.

The failure of the public school system to properly educate our children is passed off as the lack of parental and personal responsibility at the grade school and high school level but when these children get to the collegiate level, there is no mention of personal and parental responsibility. White folk then say that Affirmative Action is putting black men and women is colleges they are not prepared for because the schools they attended at the elementary and high school level did not properly prepare them for such rigorous matriculation. It is only when it is too late that white folk admit the failure of the school system but at the same time they are still making the same arguments about parental and personal responsibility concerning our children in grade school and High school.

As I have said above, today we have people like Cosby reinforcing this idea that personal and parental responsibility can compensate for systemic failures that adversely affect our children. I refuse to sit back and listen to black folk articulate white folk arguments about our children and try to pass them off as truthful. When our children are taking out of these horrible schools they perform at the same level as the children who are not in horrible schools which say to me parental and personal responsibility is not the problem, this is a systemic problem and it must be addressed if we are to truly change the drop out rate.
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