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As promised in the Colin Powell endorsement of Obama thread I am for the first time giving my official position on Obama....

I want to preface my statements by saying that the significance and historic nature of Obama's candidacy is not lost upon me. I realize how important it is to my people in general... older generations still around to see it in particular. One particular story that comes to mind is the 106 year old lady Ann Nixon Cooper down in Georgia who beamed with pride as she cast her vote for Obama remembering a time when she was barred from voting because of her race. No matter what your politics are it's hard not to be moved by such stories and there are many other stories out there of Blacks beaming with pride as we approach this historic election day next week. If in fact Senator Obama wins this election Blacks from sea to shining sea will burst in a collective out pouring of euphoria as if releasing the burden of nearly 400 years of oppression....In many of our peoples minds we would have come full circle from the OUT HOUSE to the WHITE HOUSE....we've finally got a piece of the pie finally Black people in the white house and they are not just the help.

However, once the euphoria has subsided and the victory parties quietly fade it will be time to allow reality to set into our collective psyche. The reality being that in conjuction with the historic nature of Obama's candidacy comes historic troubles. For instance even before this current financial crisis the U.S. economy was tanking into a long recession. The reasons for this far exceed the abilities of Obama or any other President to effect any real "change" that will reverse this trend. I'm not trying to be dramatic and exaggerate in order to just make a point... I'm looking at the FACTS.

The U.S. economy is more fragile than most people realize... this country has gone from being the worlds largest industrial and exporting economy to the worlds largest DEBTOR nation surviving only on daily injections of bank credit and consumer spending. These two pillars of the current U.S. economy just so happen to be whats crumbling now and THAT is the problem. The only thing left to do is go into more DEBT which is why no matter who gets elected Obama or McCain the national debt will increase by the Trillions just to support their respective plans (something that neither one wants to discuss). This is the reason neither could give a straight answer with regard to what spending they would cut from their plans due to the $850 billion dollar sellout of wallstreet. If going into this type of debt wasn't bad enough you must consider WHO owns all this U.S. debt...none other than nations who don't have this country's best interest at heart. Countries like Saudi Arabia, The united Arab emirates, OPEC, and China. Like I said before America's creditors specifically China at some point will dry up the well for loaning America money and they out of necessity or spite may start dumping their U.S. holdings... this country could not withstand the impact of that.

I say that to say this Obama is not being elected because whites all of a sudden are feeling color blind he is being elected because a lot of whites are hurting and he's offering them hope. The down side to all this is that if Obama does not effectively and almost immediately after he's sworn in start to change this country in a positive way watch how fast even his most loyal white supporters turn on him. I'm not pointing this out because I wish him any ill will I actually like Obama personally which is why in many ways I feel bad for him.

As I pointed out given the magnitude of the situation no president could change this thing around and even if they attempted to do the REAL things necessary it would be so painful to the American public that it would be political suicide...so all he's left with is the band-aid of going into more debt.

On the national security front Obama's hands are equally tied and Lawd forbid if Iran gets a nuke or if there is another attack here on Obama's watch....The conspiracy theories would run amuck and the conservative air attacks from the likes of Rush "Hermann Göring" Limbaugh and propagandist Sean "Joseph Goebbels" Hannity would convince even larger numbers of whites (who already don't trust him) that Obama allowed it. The cumulative effect of an economy that's not improving (or even worsening) and national security threats will create a backlash that will start to divide people along racial lines...whites will become ever more vocal in their opposition to Obama and Blacks will take ALL criticism of their "First Black President" personal and as a racial attack.

This will cause whites to become ever more conservative (something they tend to do when scared) and soon thereafter Blacks will realize that the only circumstances in which we should be seeking Black leadership is in a nation that we have SOLE control of without having to acquiesce to the will of a white majority.

This all could be the beginning of a true separatist movement of Blacks in this country for the first time. So when I think about it if Obama wins from the stand point of a Black separatist it's a win/win situation... if his presidency is a success which improves the lives of Blacks in this country...great. If not then Blacks will finally have to come to terms with the fact that the old saying "God bless the child that's got his own" apply's not just to an individual but also to a GROUP and we need to work towards achieving nothing less than our own in every sense of the word.

So the bottom line having said all that.... Barack Obama gets my endorsement....
"In a world where lies have become accepted as fact..The truth when finally heard burns like a flame of fire" "It is irrational to want that which is not God's will, so attune thyself with thy inner Nature and live happily."
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LieDecrypter,

I don't disagree with anything that you've written about the challenges an Obama presidency will face, nor do I disagree with the basis of Obama's support from white folks, or how quickly that can/will change, or that the rightwing attack media will be on a mission.

However, I believe that Obama, with our [read: progressives, democrats and Black folk in specific] support through actively participating in this democracy, e.g., becoming educated on, and advocating for, Obama's agenda, Obama has the chops to turn things around.

Obama has shown that his approach to the economy will be pragmatic, rather than ideology based ... he will apply the "best" course, regardless of which side of the aisle the idea springs. And that course will put this trickle down canard to rest and put money in the hands of "the little people."

Obama has shown that his approach to foriegn affairs will be equally pragmatic. I believe that he will talk with any and everyone to establish and accomplish mutual interests; but he will not be pushed by anyone, foriegn or domestic.

The only area that gives me pause is whether he will advance any form of Black-based agenda. But I place that more at our [read: Black folks'] feet. We should be organizing PACs and policy centers now, so that we are prepared to put from the bottom up, i.e., through our congressional reps, something of a clear agenda on the table.
quote:
Originally posted by LieDecrypter:
As promised in the Colin Powell endorsement of Obama thread I am for the first time giving my official position on Obama....

Brother LD, thank you for sharing your perspective with us, but respectfully, the arguments you've made for a separatist Black nation by way of Obama's presidential performance, were weak. From the outset, one cannot predict or say with certainty how White Americans will react to Obama's presidential performance. Sure, everyone's expectations of Obama are quite high, due in part to the mistakes made by the Bush Administration. But your subjective speculations about how "White people" will react to Obama's presidential performance insults the intelligence of most voters. Most voters are intelligent enough to realize the magnitude of problems facing the nation, and they know that Obama is not in the business of producing miracles. Therefore, voters are not supporting Senator Obama because they expect him to miraculously change this country over night, or even in two terms. We are supporting and voting for Obama because we fear that if we don't, then the national crisis that we're all facing will significantly worsen. That is why, in another thread, I emphasized to readers that this year's election is not just about casting a vote. It is incumbent upon all of us, every voter, to do our parts to ensure that change happens and it is consistent until our expectations are met. This year's election is about survival. Therefore, we are going to have to adopt an ACTIVE and hands-on approach to citizenship. We cannot behave like we have in the past by placing our vote on November 4th, and then expect "the president" to take it from there. That is a hands-off approach to citizenship.

Equally important, we need to realize that Obama does not represent change, we do. This year's election is not about him, and if people were paying attention to Obama's acceptance speech, then they would have heard Obama stress this to voters with absolute clarity. And by the way, I don't think your perspective can be described as a "Black separatist perspective", since voters in general have expressed your concerns about the future of this country. We are all are concerned about the economy, and with a trillion-dollar debt, we will have these concerns for a long time. But we cannot use these concerns as a basis to argue against giving others an opportunity to exercise leadership. Let us not resort to escapism, and realize that at present, we are NOT existing in a separtist Black nation. Therefore, we need to accept America as being a part of our reality, which brings me to my last point.

When you recently made arguments for a separatist Black nation in another thread, I remember telling you that a separatist Black nation is certainly impossible. In the 21st century, African American women, and especially men, are marrying Whites and other racial groups, they are working with them, forming friendships, partnerships, and businesses with them, having children with them, and this has become socially acceptable. Though racism is still present, we've progressed past the time periods in the majority of African Americans were restricted to doing almost everything with other Blacks. Today, most of our interactions are with people representing a myriad of races and cultures, which in a country as culturally- and linguistically-diverse as America, is unavoidable. So forming a separatist Black nation as a solution to resolving issues affecting African Americans needs to be replaced with a more realistic solution.
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@ Yemaya... to be quite honest with you sistah I've exercised my right not to vote in these sham elections for quite some time....although I've been registered since my early twenties. However, because of the nature of this election and it's significance that may change....and if so yes my vote will be for Obama.

@ Kweli
"LieDecrypter,

I don't disagree with anything that you've written about the challenges an Obama presidency will face, nor do I disagree with the basis of Obama's support from white folks, or how quickly that can/will change, or that the rightwing attack media will be on a mission.
However, I believe that Obama, with our [read: progressives, democrats and Black folk in specific] support through actively participating in this democracy, e.g., becoming educated on, and advocating for, Obama's agenda, Obama has the chops to turn things around."

I respect your perspective and optimisim Kweli and don't get me wrong I'm not saying the things that I'm saying to be contrarian or to rain on the Obama parade. I'm just a realist and I'm privy to a lot with regard to the inner workings of this economy and other issues fundamental to the viability of this country. Based on the FACTS the types of REAL change neccessary to turn this thing around would be long and painful....He would have to cut many programs (some of which he's based his candidacy on) allow for the country to experience a recession to clean all the excess and waste out of the bloated economy (which in the short term would make the unemployment rate at least double) force Americans to live a more frugal lifestyle (drastically reducing our artificially high... cheap import driven standard of living) Transform the country from a SERVICE driven economy back into one that MAKES things that the rest of the world wants... and eliminate the current trade and budget deficits just to name a few...do you honestly believe Obama has the chops to do that...even in two terms?

Obama has shown that his approach to the economy will be pragmatic, rather than ideology based ... he will apply the "best" course, regardless of which side of the aisle the idea springs. And that course will put this trickle down canard to rest and put money in the hands of "the little people."

Okay based on the things that I laid out above where would this money to give to the little people come from without just going into more debt?...if you don't get it from the same countries that I mentioned before who are already up to their eyeballs in U.S. paper and if anything ready to dump it..where do you get this money? Besides when given this money what are they supposed to do with it?..... besides only perpetuate this consumer driven economy which is part of the problem.

"Obama has shown that his approach to foriegn affairs will be equally pragmatic. I believe that he will talk with any and everyone to establish and accomplish mutual interests; but he will not be pushed by anyone, foriegn or domestic."

There is a reason that many foriegn countries prefer Obama...not simply because he's willing to talk but because they know that under an Obama administration there is a slim to none chance that unless directly provoked he will go to war. This gives foriegn countries the breathing room they need to pursue whatever goals they want to advance their OWN countries....not the least of which are goals for breaking away from U.S. economic and military hegemony.

"The only area that gives me pause is whether he will advance any form of Black-based agenda. But I place that more at our [read: Black folks'] feet. We should be organizing PACs and policy centers now, so that we are prepared to put from the bottom up, i.e., through our congressional reps, something of a clear agenda on the table."

This for damn sure should give you pause if not stop you dead in your tracks....remember the only reason I'm supporting Obama is because of what he WON'T be able to do for whites not for what he WILL do for Blacks. If you place what Blacks should do for ourselves at our own feet..then what difference does it make whether or not Obama is in office... if you don't believe he will be instrumental in helping? Regardless of who is president Blacks should be doing these things for OURSELVES... if we did maybe we wouldn't be putting so much faith in Obama in the first place. As long as you are working within a white dominated social infrustructure you can forget about a uniquely Black agenda being addressed it's not even in Obama's best interest to do so. If you continue to play someone elses card game where the deck is stacked against you it doesn't matter who the dealer is even if they're Black...or half Black in the case of Obama.

@ Rowe

Notwithstanding your innocuous greeting of me as "Brother LD" I'm forced to repeat to you what I said in the Colon powell endorses Obama thread whereby I stated...

"So I tell you what whenever you get the time, courage or inclination to address what I actually said I will be ready....until then please try not to comment on anything else I say from here on out."

http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/7551085974/p/9

I meant that and just because this is a different thread changes nothing. Now I am more than willing and able to answer your latest statement directed towards me...However, why should I take the time to read and reply to your post when you claimed regarding my previous response to you before that

" As far as your other statements are concerned, unfortunately, I don't have time to address them all. I skimmed over most of them."

So sistah Rowe I ask you why on earth would anybody respect your posts and give you an in depth reply when clearly you don't believe in returing the courtesy?
The only area that gives me pause is whether he will advance any form of Black-based agenda.---K4R

Same here.

But I don't doubt that he will do it.

I can't figure out how he will do it.

However he does it, I believe he will address the relevant issue pragmatically, and comprehensively.

His proposed resolution will be, essentially, unassailable on its merit.

That's how he has operated thus far.

I can't wait to see it.


PEACE

Jim Chester
Okay .. I think I'm about ready to opine on your opinion. Smile

quote:
Originally posted by LieDecrypter:

As I pointed out given the magnitude of the situation no president could change this thing around and even if they attempted to do the REAL things necessary it would be so painful to the American public that it would be political suicide...so all he's left with is the band-aid of going into more debt.


I think I might be willing to agree with this except for the fact that I watched such a miracle happen before when Bill Clinton took an approximate $300 billion deficit and turned it into a surplus.

I don't know how he did it. But he did do it. At the time, in terms of hard figures the situation was certainly not as dire as it is now. But in terms of the country being on the brink of economic disaster, we're feeling it in pretty much the same way now as we were then.

Times were hard. And there was no visible relief in sight. Clinton didn't even have the hope and belief that he could or would come up with an economical fix in the way that Obama has behind him right now. People were not as engaged nor paying attention to the political process as they are now. Bill was charasmatic and likable ... and a Democrat .. which, after 12 years of Republican destruction was about all the relief people were expecting or hoping for.

I'm willing to give you that no president in and of himself can fix this problem single-handedly. However, I do believe that given the right combination of strategic circumstances - all ducks in a row, the planets cosmically aligned, all cylinders firing at the same time ... and maybe just a kiss of Divine Intervention - anything and everything is possible! Smile

An Obama presidency itself would be something just short of a miracle. There's no reason to believe that he couldn't/wouldn't actually produce one during his time there. There is already precedent set for it. All he has to do is follow The Yellow Brick Road.



quote:
... if his presidency is a success which improves the lives of Blacks in this country...great. If not then Blacks will finally have to come to terms with the fact that the old saying "God bless the child that's got his own" apply's not just to an individual but also to a GROUP and we need to work towards achieving nothing less than our own in every sense of the word.


I don't think that Black people are lacking a sense of communal sensitivity. We are, as a group, a compassionate bunch. We feel for ourselves, and each other, and our *group* as a whole. Even fractured by integration, there is still an ingrained sense of "I am my brother's keeper" that I don't think we can/will ever lose.

However ... in regards to the part I italized, therein, I think lies our biggest problem - working to achieving our own and (even more importantly) working to achieve our own TOGETHER.

In my opinion, the reason for this is simple: We just simply don't know how. We don't know what to do. And this ever-increasing, nasty little side effect of individualism (also from integration) is definitely taking us farther away from achieving that particular goal.

Black people aren't unwilling to do something. There is just no uniform solution of exactly how to do it. If there was, I have little doubt that we, as a collective, would be willing to use or implement it. There are far too many varying ideas on the subject for there to be cohesion .. and the sad part is that there isn't a simple "one size fits all" solution so there is plenty of room and opportunity for successful attacks on several different fronts and in many different ways ... so that everybody can get to the same place even if we prefer to travel different roads to get there.

But ... post-CRM, we have become mired in stagnation and immobility. With the CRM there was direction - from someone and to something. And today there isn't. sck

I believe that while the goal is (at least somewhat) defined, the way is very much a blur. And that once we are able to straighten that out ... we will once again be on the road to forward progress in taking care of us .. and making sure we are taken care of.
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quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Okay .. I think I'm about ready to opine on your opinion. Smile

I think I might be willing to agree with this except for the fact that I watched such a miracle happen before when Bill Clinton took an approximate $300 billion deficit and turned it into a surplus.


First a distinction must be made between the budget deficit and the national debt...even under Bill Clinton the national debt was still HUGE now it's even WORSE...although one should give him credit for the surplus this was done by being very disciplined with government spending. However, BC had the luxury of not being in the middle of a financial crisis AND fighting TWO wars simultaneously...Obama is in a totally different situation so the Clinton example is not a good one.

"I don't know how he did it. But he did do it. At the time, in terms of hard figures the situation was certainly not as dire as it is now. But in terms of the country being on the brink of economic disaster, we're feeling it in pretty much the same way now as we were then."

We were not on the brink of a financial disaster any where near to what we are facing now...When Clinton took office the economy was headed upwards...whomever takes office now will have a severely weakening economy to deal with in addition to the financial crisis.

"Times were hard. And there was no visible relief in sight. Clinton didn't even have the hope and belief that he could or would come up with an economical fix in the way that Obama has behind him right now. People were not as engaged nor paying attention to the political process as they are now. Bill was charasmatic and likable ... and a Democrat .. which, after 12 years of Republican destruction was about all the relief people were expecting or hoping for."

Once again to compare the situation under the Clinton years to now is not good...I always find it problematic to have these discussions with people who don't see the depth of these problems the way I do. Because without fail a false comparison is always made...So maybe this analogy will help a bit to show you the difference between then and now...When Bill Clinton took office in 1993 the U.S. economy was running on empty....but through diligence, easing on the accelerator along with other frugal tactics and pumping the brakes he managed to get it to the nearest gas station just to keep it going a little longer.

Now after eight years of Cheney and George "D dubya I" Bush being behind the wheel...Obama is left with a beat up old lemon with a burned out engine, bald tires, oil leaks, bad brakes and is only moving because it's being literally pushed by a bunch of Arabs and Chinese who are getting tired fast....I hope this helps you understand the difference.


"I'm willing to give you that no president in and of himself can fix this problem single-handedly. However, I do believe that given the right combination of strategic circumstances - all ducks in a row, the planets cosmically aligned, all cylinders firing at the same time ... and maybe just a kiss of Divine Intervention - anything and everything is possible! FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=Smile" "

That's true but if all that you mentioned above has to happen for this thing to work out...then you paint a bleaker picture than even I do....

"An Obama presidency itself would be something just short of a miracle. There's no reason to believe that he couldn't/wouldn't actually produce one during his time there. There is already precedent set for it. All he has to do is follow The Yellow Brick Road."

There is no precedent for all the issues facing the next president that's why you constantly hear pundits say things like we are in "unchartered territory" As far as the next president following "The Yellow Brick Road" all I can say is the road to hell is paved with good intentions and whoever takes office won't be in Kansas anymore and thats for damn sure...

"I don't think that Black people are lacking a sense of communal sensitivity. We are, as a group, a compassionate bunch. We feel for ourselves, and each other, and our *group* as a whole. Even fractured by integration, there is still an ingrained sense of "I am my brother's keeper" that I don't think we can/will ever lose."

I agree with this statement but only for SOME of us though far too few.... most Blacks have lost a true sense of community with other Blacks...This will only be regained through a catalyst as BIG as the one that first divided us.

"However ... in regards to the part I italized, therein, I think lies our biggest problem - working to achieving our own and (even more importantly) working to achieve our own TOGETHER."

As I alluded to above Blacks will not do this until we realize our survival depends on it...until then we will keep our divided "I gots ta git minez" attitude.

"In my opinion, the reason for this is simple: We just simply don't know how. We don't know what to do. And this ever-increasing, nasty little side effect of individualism (also from integration) is definitely taking us farther away from achieving that particular goal."

In a crisis (I'm talking one that threatens our survival) you'll be suprised how well the mind focuses itself.... with the proper stimuli Blacks will then learn what to do...

"Black people aren't unwilling to do something. There is just no uniform solution of exactly how to do it. If there was, I have little doubt that we, as a collective, would be willing to use or implement it. There are far too many varying ideas on the subject for there to be cohesion .. and the sad part is that there isn't a simple "one size fits all" solution so there is plenty of room and opportunity for successful attacks on several different fronts and in many different ways ... so that everybody can get to the same place even if we prefer to travel different roads to get there."

Deep down most people understand what Blacks need to do...however the problem is too many people are benefiting from the status quo...this includes COON A$$ NEGROES..who hate the idea of Black autonomy and independence because they cannot imagine their lives not being dictated by YT or his principalities.

"But ... post-CRM, we have become mired in stagnation and immobility. With the CRM there was direction - from someone and to something. And today there isn't. FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=sck"

The goal of the CRM was to achieve equality through integration...once a measurable amount of this goal is attained that extinguishes the fire...If all a negroe ever wants is acceptance from YT this can easily be fixed by tossing him a few crumbs...A lot of the fire was knocked out of the CRM just by simply giving a bunch of disenfranchised Blacks good paying Goverment, Municipal and Corporate JOBS...in WHITE OWNED institutions instead of Blacks keeping their "eyes on the prize" and pooling resources to build their OWN companies and supporting each other...which is the only TRUE road to equality.

"I believe that while the goal is (at least somewhat) defined, the way is very much a blur. And that once we are able to straighten that out ... we will once again be on the road to forward progress in taking care of us .. and making sure we are taken care of."

As I told Kweli this should be done no matter who is in office and thinking that Obama (with all the things on his plate) if elected would be instrumental in fundamentally "changing" the Black condition is fantasy...Quite frankly with all the problems that the next president will face I would be suprised and impressed if they just prevent things from getting worse much less make things better.
Along with the fact that I've been quite busy recently I figured that I should wait 7 days after my last post just to give negroes time to enjoy Baracks victory before I continued to inject HARD FACTS into this equation. As I mentioned before upon Obama winning... Blacks from sea to shining sea would burst into a collective out pouring of euphoria as if releasing nearly 400 years of oppression. Some of the things I've been hearing, seeing, and reading have been astonishing. It's as if Blacks have pinned all their hopes, dreams and aspirations entirely on the shoulders of Obama...Case and point I heard one young Black man in an interview when asked what did Obama's victory mean to him he said something to the effect of "it means everything... now I can go to college and get a job". The reporters reaction to this was "So you could not do these things before?" and his answer was..."No".

Don't get me wrong as I stated before I understand the historic nature of this election ...however the above interview I cited underscores some of the unrealistic expectations Blacks are forming as a result of all this. I've already stated why I as a separatist supported Obama and none of my reasons are based on my expectations as to what he will do for Blacks. If anything I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop as Blacks realize that the power to "change" their situation for the better is in their OWN hands after they realize Obama is not the saviour of Blacks.

So I'm looking at the coming tremendous let down that Blacks will collectively experience as a potential galvanizing force that will act as the catalyst to set Blacks on the proper path of creating their OWN lane as opposed to continuously traversing the one YT has laid for them. So as I said before this whole thing is a win/win from my point of view...so why am I not overjoyed like most Blacks?...Because in spite of the fact that ultimately things will work out for the best... I know that the path ahead will be a long and bitter one...besides 'irrational exuberance' is not my style...
quote:
Originally posted by LieDecrypter:
Along with the fact that I've been quite busy recently


Others are quite busy as well, and you should consider this before jumping to conclusions about why they haven't responded to your posts line-by-line.

quote:
So sistah Rowe I ask you why on earth would anybody respect your posts and give you an in depth reply when clearly you don't believe in returing the courtesy?



If you want to give a dissertation as a response, then that's your personal choice. If I think a topic is worthwhile, then I usually will give an in-depth response. If I don't, then I'm not. However, throughout the years, members have read plenty of my lengthy responses. In this particular discussion, you may not have read what you wanted to read or got the responses that you were expecting, but when this discussion was active, I responded to each of your posts. However, just as you want people to take into consideration your limited time, you should offer others the same courteousy.
quote:
Originally posted by Rowe:

Others are quite busy as well, and you should consider this before jumping to conclusions about why they haven't responded to your posts line-by-line.

If you want to give a dissertation as a response, then that's your personal choice. If I think a topic is worthwhile, then I usually will give an in-depth response. If I don't, then I'm not. However, throughout the years, members have read plenty of my lengthy responses. In this particular discussion, you may not have read what you wanted to read or got the responses that you were expecting, but when this discussion was active, I responded to each of your posts. However, just as you want people to take into consideration your limited time, you should offer others the same courteousy.


This contrived attempt to try to respond to past statements really needs to stop....especially when you still are not even addressing the real issue. Even in the above reply you are once again taking a statement out of context. I was only referring to the time delay in my post's in general. The issue I had with you was your claim not to have "time to respond" even though you were STILL here making posts...and the fact that you claimed to only have "skimmed through" my posts yet you expect others to read through your mile long posts...

Even by your own admission you claim...

"throughout the years, members have read plenty of my lengthy responses"


So once again I repeat... "So sistah Rowe I ask you why on earth would anybody respect your posts and give you an in depth reply when clearly you don't believe in returning the courtesy?

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