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From the responses of some of the brothas in several forums which highlighted relations between the brothas and the sistas, I believe they just don't get it. Brothas seem so busy blaming black women for everything from unemployment to single parenthood, that they don't have time to learn how to love and accept black women. Even when they say they love/accept black women, they criticize black women for being "hard", or "gold diggers" or some such nonsense. Perhaps patriarchy has influenced the brothas to see sistas as competitors rather than lovers? Are the Brothers even capable of loving us?

Everybody can be great... because anybody can serve. You don't have to have a college degree to serve. You don't have to make your subject and verb agree to serve. You only need a heart full of grace. A soul generated by love.  


Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr

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here's an excerpt from bell hooks' SALVATION: Black People and Love

"Images of black women in movies by black filmmakers, mostly males, have done little to change racist/sexist stereotypes. Spike Lee, John Singleton, and a host of other black male artists continue to project sexist images of black womanhood. In their films, when the black female is not a sex object she is often depicted as a treacherous, evil bitch. Since most black males share with white males patriarchal thinking that already depicts females as innately evil and lustful, they have not offered the world alternative ways to think about black women. Instead way too many sexist black males have exploited black females with the same indifference and lack of connection that characterized white male use and abuse of black females during slavery. Since these men, like their white counterparts, see females as subordinates, they see nothing wrong with their attitudes."
Kweli,
I'm interested in hearing your perspective on this issue. I particularly recall on the Kobe Bryant and the sistas/brothas forum where Noah the African spewed out sexist beliefs about black woman and then dared us to prove him wrong. And then the White women won't tell forum where Afroman gave backhanded comments about black women in the guise of "acceptance". None of the brothas called each other out on that. Are such beliefs about black women considered "the norm" among black males? Your perspective?
I have set back and watched you Negrospiritual, single handily try and make it appear as the Black men who have spoken about many of the characteristics displayed by Black women out to be the enemies or some what off base with some of the things they have said. However, you have not refuted their claims you have only said that their criticism of Black women is somehow misplaced if they do not criticize black men equally. In most of the threads that this discussion has arisen the characteristics of Black men were not as relevant as those of Black women although they could have been mention. This thread of course presents the opportunity for Black men to step up and speak about the love they have for Black women but you must be mindful there is nothing that can be said about Black women or Black men that apply to all of us. I have not seen anyone blame Black women for one hundred percent of the things that are wrong in the Black community. It would be ridiculous to do so; Black men and Black women both have played a role and continue to play a role in many of the things that continue to plague our community.

Most Black men have not been schooled in male/female relationship and neither have most Black women and because of this we have become our biggest enemies in many cases. In your response to Afroman you said he forgot to mention many of the things that plague black men and then you proceeded to point those things out however none of what Afroman said and none of what you said are limited to Black men or Black women; both suffer from much of the same thing. What you have written here could easily be turned around and written from a male perspective in saying that sistas do not understand brothas and sistas need to stop blaming Black men for what is wrong with the Black family. Who is to Blame when a Black woman is impregnated by a Black man who she knew was no good and then when this no good negro who didn't have a job when he met the sista refuse to or do not pay child support disappears the sista act surprised? Who is to Blame when a Brotha impregnate a Sista and one of them is married to someone else? Who is to blame when a Brotha impregnate a sista and when the child is born she run off with another man and the child? Our problems are many and Black men and Black women are not to be blames all alone for what is wrong with the Black family.

My love for Black women is fueled by my love for Black people. I do not defend Black men without defending Black women and vice versa. I do not see Black women as competitors, I see Black women as the woman who has stood behind the Black man when there was no reason to stand behind him, I see the Black woman as the woman who held the Black family together when the Black man was beaten down and made less than a man. I see the Black woman as the first teacher of our children and the rightful mate of the Black man. Without the Black woman the Black man goes no where and would not become the man he can become and this is why for me there is no other woman on earth that is more deserving of my love and protection.

Black men are misogynistic in many of the things we do and Black women allow themselves to be used as half dressed whores in music videos and movies. What we have here is Black men and Black women participating in behavior that both believe the other find attractive which is true on a certain level but not all Black women like a thugged out brothers dressed in FUBU or a throwback but some do, not all Black men like a woman with short shorts on showing her ass but some do and because of this we do the things to attract the kind of person we want. I am no more responsible for how a so called thug treat a woman than are you Negrospiritual responsible for how the woman who like thugs allow her self to be treated. If we are to work on Black male/female relationship then we all must accept first that some of our brothas and sistas are perpetuating a myth that does not apply to us all and proceed from that point on to breakdown that which is destroying us and rebuild on those things that will help us.

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
My esteemed bro Faheem,

I am appreciative of concepts you advanced in your post. I will read it again to insure I have gleaned all the nuances from its content. It was not my intent to assign black men the role of "enemy". Rather to require equal participation in creating black love! Sista's need black lovers, not black enemies. I am somewhat stunned that you do not recognize that YES much of what was said by male posters is indeed OFF BASE since as you state, these characteristics cannot be applied to ALL sistas.

However, much of what you have said, I have also said. I too have repeatedly asserted that both brothas and sistas have emotional scars as a result of western/white supremacist indoctrination. It was me continually urging posters to accept that both sexes were oppressed, undervalued, and hurt, therefore discussing "black women do this, and black women ain't as oppressed as black men, and black women ain't that" was futile, remember?

When discussions about black love/relationships cont'd to center on only the black woman...I felt expansion was necessary. I do not and would not ever say that black women don't have issues. My sistas have many. But knowledge is power. When I work with women's programs as part of my job or with teens thru church, I try to help bring these issues to light so sistas,especially young sistas, can be aware of these issues and handle themselves accordingly (spiritually, financially, sexually, educationally).

But to discuss them as if sistas live in a vacuum separate from black men and not require black men to look at themselves and their contribution to the status of black love relationships is both misogynistic, and futile.

I ask that you require brothas to dissect and analyze their part in blackman/blackwoman relations, just as we have seemingly dissected the sistas. It is the only way both parties can accept responsibility for healing and come together.

Of note, my esteemed bro Faheem, is that you did not take the brothas to task for uttering such sista-battering statements as (paraphrased)

1."black women are not as oppressed as black men"

2."I give black women a chance although they are mean, superficial,mis-educated and self-hating"

3. "black women need to find out what the competition is doing to take their man"

4. "a brotha is acting like a woman or a bitch if he engages in back and forth dialogue, rather than walking away or fighting"

5. "feminism contributed to the demise of the black family"

6. "it is sistas who are moaning and complaining about not finding a mate so it is sistas we need to discuss"

Why not? Is it that you believe these statements, while not representative of all sistas, are normal? appropriate? Are these indictments not "off-base"?

Again, my heart is warmed by your sentiments about loving black women and black love in general. We are not so diametrically opposed in our views, for I too, love black men in all their glory and in all their flaws. I can never imagine myself in the arms of the massa's son or grandson. From my father, to my grandfathers to my uncles to my bro-in-laws, to my nephews, I have received nothing but love, kindness, adoration, and guidance. I pray this blessing upon ALL sistas.

Are the brothas up to the challenge of introspection of black male behavior, acknowlegement of black male flaws, acceptance of responsibility to behave differently toward sistas, and transformation into loving,giving,protecting and guiding?

<small><i>[This message was edited by negrospiritual on May 30, 2003 at 08:24 AM.]</small></i>
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:

Much respect to you sista,but a son telling his Mama that he loves her is not the same as Black men en masse being able to create, show and act with love toward BLAck Women....


In retrospect, perhaps i could elaborate on that. It is excellent to hear of your sons' love for you. I wonder what actions are necessary to bring about the same level of respect and love toward black women from other black men?
are black men capable of loving us?

first and foremost i believe very strongly that you are only able to receive love when you love yourself. may sound cliche, but i think its the honest truth.

if we step back and look at ourselves as black women i think we have some issues to over come. some that are self inflicted, some that are society driven, and some that have been passed down to us from postitions we've had to hold in history.

i do not think we are a broken gender, nor do not think that we all are in need of self adjustment, but i do think that before you can ask if someone is capable of loving you--you have to look in the mirror and determine if you are whole yourself and in a position to accept love.
Negrospiritual,

I don't UNDERSTAND why you make such a big Deal about My post. I was talking about the Egoistical, self-hating behaviours of MOST Black women not ALL! Yes, there are Black women out there promoting the Destruction of the Black Family as well as there are Black MEN doing the same thing! I was not pointing FINGER to only the Sisters, but the topic "What white women won't tell us" on the Issues board was I believe about white women and Sisters. If it was about the Brothers and Sisters, white men and white women tell me If I'm wrong.
Besides how many times you hear, see deamining, insulting and incorrect things about Black Men in AmeriCa. EVERYDAY! Just watch TELL LIE VISION (TV) and see how Blacks Men are referred to, potrayed as Criminals, brainless studs, quitter and Uneducated Negros. In this Male Chauvinist, racist, white supremacy social System we Black Men are continually acttacked, destroyed as well. So would be MY Benefit to Attack and scorn my too oppressed Sisters? I'm not a FOOL! There are no people on Earth who have to denounce their Women in order to become better people. It's because our Women are so strong that we ALL are where we are today. And I will never attack or scorn at Black Women because I KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS TO HISTORY! So Negrospiritual calm down and realize I was talking about Sisters in GENERAL and not about any Sisters in particular, not you or anybody on this board. There are a lot of Couscious and Intelligent Sisters on A.A org, that's why I like coming here to discuss with you and LEARN form you. Let's stop fighting over crumbs. We Black Men need Strong and Secure Women. We need to be UNITED as we once were in Africa before the INVASIONS. It is to easy to fall into suspicious behaviors, that's what the Racist Europeans want to DESTROY our Collectivism, our Unity while they remain Strong and United. Let's not give them this satisfaction. I ADORE my Black Queens and NOTHING would make me reject them not even the Mis-Education and Brainwashing thrown at us ALL.

<small><i>[This message was edited by Afroman on May 30, 2003 at 10:38 AM.]</small></i>
quote:
Originally posted by Nykkii:

i do not think we are a broken gender, nor do not think that we all are in need of self adjustment, but i do think that before you can ask if someone is capable of loving you--you have to look in the mirror and determine if you are whole yourself and in a position to accept love.


kOOL! i too am in support of "stepping back and looking at ourselves" and highly encourage the brothas to do the same.

I like your response about looking in the mirror, being whole and in position to accept love. Sounds like a healthy thing for individuals to do! Speaking of mirrors, what are your thoughts regarding the images of sistas and the images of brothas which must be presented, portrayed, and protected to uplift black love?
Hi Afroman

Why has lack of calmness been attributed to me? I am in no way fighting. I am merely presenting my thoughts as are others. In person, I rarely raise my voice. Perhaps it's the tiger avatar which contributes to that impression?



quote:
Originally posted by Afroman:
Negrospiritual,

I don't UNDERSTAND why you make such a big Deal about My post. I was talking about the Egoistical, self-hating behaviours of MOST Black women not ALL! And I will never attack or scorn at Black Women because I KNOW TOO MUCH ABOUT THEIR CONTRIBUTIONS TO HISTORY! So Negrospiritual calm down and realize I was talking about Sisters in GENERAL and not about any Sisters in particular, not you or anybody on this board.


Afroman,
thanks for those words of affection and respect. They are uplifting. I will try to look at it from your perspective. Help me understand, ok? Why is referencing MOST BLACK WOMEN as "egotistical and self hating" not considered scorn or attack in your eyes?

P.S. I knew you weren't referring to me or other AA.org sistas, but thanks for elaborating on that point Smile
Negrospiritual, do not mistake my silence on a thing as me agreeing with it. In some cases, this may be true but in the scenario you just presented this is not the case. My silence on the points you have extracted from various points made by other posters is based on what I believe they were saying or trying to say in their post. If you want me to articulate to you what I believe they were saying I would be happy to do so, clearly we understood differently what was said.

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:

Negrospiritual, do not mistake my silence on a thing as me agreeing with it. In some cases, this may be true but in the scenario you just presented this is not the case. My silence on the points you have extracted from various points made by other posters is based on what I believe they were saying or trying to say in their post. If you want me to articulate to you what I believe they were saying I would be happy to do so, clearly we understood differently what was said.


Faheem, perhaps it is thru the lens of southern, activist,baptist parents, aunts, uncles etc that I had viewed the silence of brothas while these were being posted as agreement/affirmation. Thru that lens I saw brothas typing misogyny and other brothas failing to correct it. and in my southern, activisti, baptist upbringing one is urged to reach back and teach those who don't know better.

Would you be willing to articulate what you believe they were saying so that I may more fully understand why conscious brothas are silent during indictments of the sistas?
Bro Huey!

sounds like a good and timely book! would u be willing to post excerpts here?
Thanks
N.Spirit

quote:
Originally posted by Huey:

May I suggest a book that I bought three years ago? It's called "MORE THAN SEX: Reinventing the Black Male Image" by George Edmond Smith. It also includes a foreword by Dr. Gwendolyn Goolsby Grant from ESSENCE Magazine.
It is a MUST READ.

Here goes nothing Wink

The statement Black women was not as oppressed as Black men was later clarified if I am not mistaken and explained to mean that the oppression both received is different and the level of oppression that men was under was greater than that women were under being that men represented the greatest threat to white male supremacy. The Black man had a greater chance of being killed than a Black woman. Even so, I think it is ridiculous for us to argue about who suffered more Black men or Black women because when one of us suffer we all suffer. There were forms of suffering unique to Black men and suffering unique to Black women but we suffered as a people and any arguments about who suffered more is not necessary. Regardless of who suffered more the effects of that suffering can be seen all over our communities.

"Given Black women a chance" is simply a statement that needed an adjective to describe the number of women he was talking about. If the statement was "There are some Black women who are etc.... I do not think you would have had a problem with it, it is only when it appear that all Black women are being lumped into a group do you seem to speak out and refute whatever claim is being made. Right?

Black women need to find out what the competition is doing!! I think this statement is accurate in that Black women should want to know what is it if anything they are doing that would cause the black man to take on other women as mates. The same could be said about Black men, we need to find out why some Black women now believe it to be necessary to date non black men. This problem is cyclical and based on reactions, but nothing less than self analysis will help Black men and Black women understand the problems we have with one another. The women competing for Black men with Black women do not have the history with Black men like the Black woman has and still in other women Black men are finding something they believe Black women are lacking and if we are to find out how white women has managed to steal so many of our successful Black men from the Black family there must be some time spent investigating what these women are doing that some Black men believe Black women are not doing. Black women should be curious as to what the white women are doing or not doing that has made her the number one stealer of successful Black men. This does not in anyway say to Black women that Black men are abandoning the Black family because of you!! I think this is just a symptom of a bigger problem.

"a brotha is acting like a woman or a bitch" this statement without the profanity is based on the male being the stronger of the two genders. If I am up to bat and I don't hit the Ball far, some will say I hit like a woman and if a woman bats behind me and knocks it out the park some will say she hit the ball like a man. It is chauvinistic and maybe even misogynistic but culturally all around the world strength is equated with men and weakness in men is equated with being a woman. Plus it is quite insulting to call a man a woman just as it is insulting to call a woman a man.

"feminism contributed to the demise of the black family" It is no secret that during the pro black and civil right movement here in America arose this movement called the women rights movement that took momentum and attention away from our struggle and in many cases weakened our movement. Black women began to listen to white women who were complaining about what white men were doing to them and of course Black women were being treated worse but for whatever reason Black women began to think that much of the hell they received was due to them being a woman versus being black and thus identified with the white woman's movement to gain rights and freedom for white women. The white woman rebellion against her man caused a rebellion by many Black women against the Black men and thus the Black family was divided even more than it once was. So this statement that feminism CONTRIBUTED to the demise of the Black family is a FACT. The Black power movement was never the same after the women's right movement and much of our fire was stolen by this movement.

Sista's complaining about mates, is a fact as well and the recent Newsweek article that spoke about the great divide in the Black community interviewed many Black women who had this very complaint. Black women are excelling in many places, especially school, however the Black man is being locked up, dropping out of school, dating and marry white women at rates that make it harder for a Black woman to find good Black man. The demand for professional educated black men by professional educated Black women is not being met; so many sisters are voicing their concerns. This is not moaning this is truth and it is a truth that we need to address but this can not be addressed by focusing on one gender.

I have a question for you Negrospiritual that is based on your silence. You were unusually silent in the other thread when the discussion of Black women dating white men began and you never commented on that discussion. I have found that many Black women hate seeing Black men with white women but many Black women are the biggest defenders of IRR. Black Women hardly ever call other Black women to task for courting, dating and marrying white men while trying to talk about brothers that do this. Does your silence on this subject mean you stand with the likes of Ebony and Keylargo and believe it is perfectly fine and non destructive for Black men and women to court, date and marry non Black men and women?

-------------------------
The Black man and woman in America is a nation of people; a stolen and lost nation, but a nation none the less. The U.S. just destroyed Iraq in thirty days and has allocated close to $80 billion to rebuild Iraq. The Black man and woman in America was terrorized and destroyed for well over four hundred years. How much do you think it would take to rebuild a nation that was destroyed and bombed for four hundred years if it takes $80 billion to rebuild a nation destroyed in thirty days?


More to come later!

Your Brother Faheem
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Speaking of mirrors, what are your thoughts regarding the images of sistas and the images of brothas which must be presented, portrayed, and protected to uplift black love?


personally...i wouldn't require brotha's to do the same, just because we (as sistas) need to do it as a whole. i figure, we as women lead by example whether we like it or not. we are mothers, we teach, we set the pace, the tone, the attitude of our people, our children, our families and our men. now, the men may not want to hear that or believe it--but it is the truth fella's. Wink without your mothers or grandmothers, or who ever the women were in your lives or the lives of your fathers and your fathers fathers "AS A WHOLE" you'd be no where.

now, about looking in mirrors--and reflecting on the images of brothas and sistas necessary to protray black love--i still think it comes back to the individual.

i, like my brotha faheem and you too ns--love our people. if i've said it once on this board i've said it a million times - i love black men! there is nothing for me in the face of a non-black man, and my love for black men is a part of my love for my people. as long as i portray my strength in who i am as a black woman, as long as i teach my children to love themselves and those who look like them, as long as i continue to support and uplift my brothas--the image of black love i portray will be reflected upon everyone who knows me, and comes in contact with me.

it's when we "trade" or choose outside of our race, when we buy into the notions that are fed to us that we are not worthy, when we do not support each other that black love fails--and the images created are weak, broken, full of attitude and hate.

again -- for me, it all starts with self...you can't ask for anything you're not willing to give.

<small><i>[This message was edited by Nykkii on May 30, 2003 at 11:02 PM.]</small></i>
[QUOTE]Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Bro Huey!

sounds like a good and timely book! would u be willing to post excerpts here?
Thanks
N.Spirit

QUOTE]


Of course I will. Here's one right here:

an excerpt from the foreword by Dr. Gwendolyn Goolsby Grant:

"Spiritual decline is part of the sexual demise taking place in our communities. Confusing the physical act of sexual intercourse with the spiritual manifestation of love is at the core of our sexual descent. Sexual myths have become self-fulfilling prophecies in the black community.

High divorce rates, rampant sexually transmitted diseases and a high percentage of black children growing up without fathers is a good indication that the false notion about black male sexual superiority is just that--a false notion. To measure one's self-worth in physical or sexual terms is to live up to standards created by others.

That is exactly what slavery conditioned us to believe: that sex and reproduction defined our primitive impulses; and, tragically some of us are caught in the psychological chains of that slave mentality today...Images of the black male have been historically distorted. Brothers have been programmed to believe that the sexual force is the basis for manhood. Early in the book the author [Dr. Smith] corrects this misconception and advises black males not to define themselves through their sexuality alone. Only immature men focus on the immediate gratification of sexual conquest. A sex-focused life limits aspirations and self-worth."

AND THAT'S JUST THE FOREWORD

Negrospiritual, if you can still find that book at the stores like B. Dalton, go out and get it.

I'll put in another excerpt soon.
bro Faheem,
with this response, it has become clearer to me that brothas just don't understand the nature of the chauvinism/racism which they perpetuate toward the sistas. If that were not the case, you wouldn't have characterized me as "single-handily" making black men out to be the enemy. Rather, you might have sought to understand the deleterious effect of sexism on the black family.

You posted "here goes nothing". I find that interesting since most points proceeded to justify black male sexism rather than seek understanding of a female perspective. That brothas can justify sexism (a by-product of white male supremacy) toward the sistas is indicative of how much white supremacist ideology has seeped into our people.

for brevity's sake, I have shortened some responses...

FAHEEM OPINED...
"The statement Black women was not as oppressed as Black men was later clarified...Even so, I think it is ridiculous for us to argue about who suffered more Black men or Black women because when one of us suffer we all suffer."

You are correct to assert that although different forms of oppression are visited upon black men and black women, brothas and sistas are equally oppressed. In fact, I mentioned several times in several forums that both brothas and sistas are psychologically scarred by white supremacist ideology, and that we needed to get beyond the "who's more oppressed argument".

"Given Black women a chance" is simply a statement that needed an adjective to describe the number of women he was talking about. If the statement was "There are some Black women who are etc.... I do not think you would have had a problem with it, it is only when it appear that all Black women are being lumped into a group do you seem to speak out and refute whatever claim is being made. Right?"

Far from "refuting whatever claim is made", I admit that sistas (collectively) have some psychological/emotional issues which must be healed for satisfying emotional life. However, it is damaging to all of us for any of us to assert that "most" sistas are brainwashed, mis-educated, self-hating or some such. In a nation of close to 40 million african americans, who can say what "most" sistas are like? I believe that to be reflective more of the poor dating choices an individual has made, than the nature of sistas. That these daggers were hurled in a so-called "compliment" is indicative of the subconscious level of gender hatred held for the sistas...

"Black women need to find out what the competition is doing!! I think this statement is accurate in that Black women should want to know what is it if anything they are doing that would cause the black man to take on other women as mates..."

Never encourage a sista to compare herself to Buffy. The sistas should be discouraged from competition and comparison with the white woman. Bias against the sista is already rampant in magazines, television, music, jobs, housing, medical care. Now Black male posters are clamoring for competition with Buffy for black love? My opinion is that self-acceptance is a greater quality for the sistas to achieve and as some have already mentioned - self love is the key in a hemisphere where Keisha never measures up to Buffy. Furthermore, encouraging competition with Buffy over black male affection is sexist and the equivalent of objectification, not only of black women, but of black males. Sistas would do well to learn to love the skin they are in and radiate that from within.

"a brotha is acting like a woman or a bitch" this statement without the profanity is based on the male being the stronger of the two genders. It is chauvinistic and maybe even misogynistic but culturally all around the world strength is equated with men and weakness in men is equated with being a woman.

What does physical strength have to do with the ability to resolve problems in a mature fashion or walk away from an ugly confrontation? Men hold no monopoly on dispute resolution skills. If it is true that weakness is equated with being a woman, what accounts for the "STRONG BLACK WOMAN" imagery attributed to black women, world wide? In addition, even scientific journals know it is women, not men, who are capable of tolerating pain better. Glad that u can admit this is sexist/chauvinistic.


"feminism contributed to the demise of the black family" So this statement that feminism CONTRIBUTED to the demise of the Black family is a FACT. The Black power movement was never the same after the women's right movement and much of our fire was stolen by this movement."

The brothas who vehemently defend this fallacy would do well to do a little research. Of course white women courted black women for the women's movement, but as I have stated several times already, the sistas did not en masse participate in the women's lib movement. If you watch film clips from the 60's you will recall black women being sprayed with water hoses, black women marching in various cities, black women singing in protest, black women signing voting petitions, black women heading civil rights organizations....but very few were holding hands with white women and burning bras. THIS IS BECAUSE THE BLACK WOMAN WAS WHOLEHEARTEDLY DEVOTED TO THE UPLIFTMENT OF THE RACE, RATHER THAN HER GENDER. Even in the biographies of women who supported organizations like the black panther party, you will find Angela Davis, Assata Shakur, and others talk about the relegation of black women to secondary roles, yet they never spoke out publicly about this issue until AFTER the movement. In addition, white women's agenda and black women's agenda is rarely the same. If you read from Sojourner Truth, to bell hooks, to Ntazake Shange, to Maya Angelou, to Toni Morrison, you will find that white women are perceived to be interested in sharing power with white men, while black women have always been focused on improving the lives of black women and black families (including their men). Black women were already working outside the home, and agitating for civil rights...white women did not impress them much. Black families have much work to do. It will go undone if the brothas cannot recognize their acceptance of and participation in sexist representations of women.


"Sista's complaining about mates, is a fact as well and the recent Newsweek article that spoke about the great divide in the Black community interviewed many Black women who had this very complaint...and it is a truth that we need to address but this can not be addressed by focusing on one gender."

This I agree w ith, but I wonder if this means that love, acceptance, family, home, peace, and stability are not all that important to the brothas? if not, why?

I have a question for you Negrospiritual that is based on your silence. You were unusually silent in the other thread when the discussion of Black women dating white men began and you never commented on that discussion.

This is a topic that used to get me into big arguments on BLACKPLANET, years ago. I do not condone the sistas or the brothas dating a white person and using the excuse "well if black men/women weren't so blah blah blah blah...i wouldn't have to date a white person". I do not think it is cute, novel, cutting edge or even fashionable. One should just admit they admire white flesh. You can lead a horse to water.... Naturally I would hope to uplift the sistas as the natural choice of mate for the brothas. Although many wink, smile, and hint at it, I have never dated a white man and will never submit to the massa's son.
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:

_"Sista's complaining about mates, is a fact as well and the recent Newsweek article that spoke about the great divide in the Black community interviewed many Black women who had this very complaint...and it is a truth that we need to address but this can not be addressed by focusing on one gender."_

This I agree w ith, but I wonder if this means that love, acceptance, family, home, peace, and stability are not all that important to the brothas? if not, why?

_I have a question for you Negrospiritual that is based on your silence. You were unusually silent in the other thread when the discussion of Black women dating white men began and you never commented on that discussion._

This is a topic that used to get me into big arguments on BLACKPLANET, years ago. I do not condone the sistas or the brothas dating a white person and using the excuse "well if black men/women weren't so blah blah blah blah...i wouldn't have to date a white person". I do not think it is cute, novel, cutting edge or even fashionable. One should just admit they admire white flesh. You can lead a horse to water.... Naturally I would hope to uplift the sistas as the natural choice of mate for the brothas. Although many wink, smile, and hint at it, I have never dated a white man and will never submit to the massa's son.


Devil's Advocate question:

Not to go off subject, but do you think that the reason some black men get enraged at some black women (and white men) in IRRs because:

1. Black women and white men are usually the main two groups who get upset seeing black men in IRR's with white women (or non-black women of color?)

2. Neither white men nor black women have been lynched for being in interracial relationships with each other, compared to black men?

3. Some black men and women, and even some white men and women think that it's a luxury for some white men and some black women to condemn black men (with impunity) for being in IRR's in the first place?

4. all of the above?

More quotes from Dr. Smith's book coming soon.
quote:
Originally posted by Nykkii:

personally...i wouldn't require brotha's to do the same, just because we (as sistas) need to do it as a whole....

again -- for me, it all starts with self...you can't ask for anything you're not willing to give.


So sistas should not expect/require respectful, loving, cherishing attitudes from brothas because sistas (collectively) have things to work on?

Are sista's (collectively, not individually) assumed to be asking for something they're not willing to give?
OOh good one Negrospiritual! I must confess that as a black woman, I really don't like to see sisters date white men pretty much for the same reason I don't like to see a brother with a white woman. The history of sexual violence between black folks and white folks. We are just now getting over that violence and haven't had a real chance to heal from the abuse. Black men used to be lynched for alledgedly looking the wrong way at a white woman. A fact that most brothers appear to forget. Black woman used to get raped, impregnated and sometimes murdered by white men. You know I'm going to start a topic on this Negrospritual.

Our people have made the mistake of confusing the methods with the objectives. As long as we agree on objectives, we should never fall out with each other just because we believe in different methods, or tactics, or strategy. We have to keep in mind at all times that we are not fighting for separation. We are fighting for recognition as free humans in this society
Malcolm X, 1965
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
Hi Huey!

are black men becoming enraged at sistas in IRR's? Due to the broad availability of sistas for black men and the low visibility of sistas with white men, I haven't had the opportunity to hear black male reactions to white men dating the sistas.


I only said SOME black men, not all or most black men. Smile
Too be honest, I can't believe some of the things I'm reading. As a man, I have NEVER considered black women as my competitor, NEVER. I've always went out and did things WHITE MEN would be envious of, good education, own successful business, etc.

Instead of discussing it, when you actually do it, you'll SEE who loves you. Of course black men are capable of loving black women. A lot of times its the BLACK WOMEN who will support you before anyone.
Here's another excerpt--

"'The American ideal...of sexuality appears to be rooted in the American ideal of masculinity. This idea has created...good guys and bad guys, punks and studs, tough guys and softies, butch and faggot, black and white. It is ideal so paralytically infantile that it is virtually forbidden--as an unpatriotic act--that the American boy evolve into the complexity of manhood.' --James Baldwin


Sexuality is a powerful force that profoundly affects not only our daily lives, but the very definition of who we are as a people: how we feel about ourselves, how we love others, and, perhaps most important, how we pass these feelings on the future generations. The term sexuality encompasses a multitude of beliefs, attitudes, and behaviors that exist in all of us. Sexuality is, therefore, much more than sexual intercourse."

MORE THAN SEX, Author George Edmond Smith, Phd.; Introduction page 1.
question: Are Black men capable of loving Us?

my reply: I haven't dated too many Black women so I guess I can't say. I take the 'color blind' mindset when it comes to dating. To answer the question, i'll say 'YES", but only if she is worth the development time need to get a relationship that is worth keeping alive. It's too many 'other' races of women that are vying for a Black man's attention and love. These 'other' races are doing a very good job at loving Black men, make Black women should take notes from them. Wink

In order to improve the mind, we ought less to learn, than to contemplate.
-Rene Descartes
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixFemme:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
These 'other' races are doing a very good job at loving Black men, make Black women should take notes from them. Wink


OH NO HE DIDN'T!!!! Eek


Eek Eek Eek



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.




Eek Eek ...To be continued.
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:

question: Are Black men capable of loving Us?my reply: I haven't dated too many Black women so I guess I can't say.



Radio, unwittingly, you have made the case for this particular forum. Thanks for the illustration...

undoubtedly, one who is busy humping the white man's mother,would find it easy to belittle the sistas as justification...
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:

_question: Are Black men capable of loving Us?__my reply: I haven't dated too many Black women so I guess I can't say. _



Radio, unwittingly, you have made the case for this particular forum. Thanks for the illustration...

undoubtedly, one who is busy humping the white man's mother,would find it easy to belittle the sistas as justification...

i am an 'open minded' individual dating and seeking love from the whole world of women...not just Black. Black women are just fine by me. I have no 'preference' as it is. I'm not a big fan of white women or women with 'pre made families, i.e. kids., but that's just me. My comment was not made to 'belittle' sisters other than to say that the one's that I've known really could use some insight on how to treat a man. it seems that many BW seems to take pride in drama/eye and neck rollin instead of debating and relating [as in relating in a relationship]. I guess I may need to avoid the 'independent' types, namely because on can not be 'independent' and in an interdependent relationship. The word 'independent' mean 'self-reliant' and 'free standing'...i guess this explains why black women have so many relationship issues. They are focusing too much time on themselves. Having said that, I would not normally give a 'low score' to BW in general, however with this obvious male bashing topic, I feel invited to do so. God Bless You.

In order to improve the mind, we ought less to learn, than to contemplate.
-Rene Descartes
quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixFemme:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
These 'other' races are doing a very good job at loving Black men, make Black women should take notes from them. Wink


OH NO HE DIDN'T!!!! Eek
oh yes he did...lol


j/k, i don't know why people think that BW have some innate or inborn ability to love a black man. Not so. Love is love and love is wonderful, why not 'expand your options'?? Wink

In order to improve the mind, we ought less to learn, than to contemplate.
-Rene Descartes
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
My comment was not made to 'belittle' sisters other than to say that the one's that I've known really could use some insight on how to treat a man. it seems that many BW seems to take pride in drama/eye and neck rollin instead of debating and relating [as in relating in a relationship]. I guess I may need to avoid the 'independent' types, namely because on can not be 'independent' and in an interdependent relationship. The word 'independent' mean 'self-reliant' and 'free standing'...i guess this explains why black women have so many relationship issues. They are focusing too much time on themselves. Having said that, I would not normally give a 'low score' to BW in general, however with this obvious male bashing topic, I feel invited to do so. God Bless You.


If this is your way of "clarifying" your position, you've done a miserable job. Relying on stereotypes of both black and white women - too independent and more willing to acquiese. Using your rationale, I would be justified in writing off all black men as weak and incapable of dealing with any woman as an equal. But that would be wrong.

Now excuse me while I go get me a white man since THEY know how to treat a woman. Razz
quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixFemme:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
My comment was not made to 'belittle' sisters other than to say that the one's that I've known really could use some insight on how to treat a man. it seems that many BW seems to take pride in drama/eye and neck rollin instead of debating and relating [as in relating in a relationship]. I guess I may need to avoid the 'independent' types, namely because on can not be 'independent' and in an interdependent relationship. The word 'independent' mean 'self-reliant' and 'free standing'...i guess this explains why black women have so many relationship issues. They are focusing too much time on themselves. Having said that, I would not normally give a 'low score' to BW in general, however with this obvious male bashing topic, I feel invited to do so. God Bless You.


If this is your way of "clarifying" your position, you've done a miserable job. Relying on stereotypes of both black and white women - too independent and more willing to acquiese. Using your rationale, I would be justified in writing off all black men as weak and incapable of dealing with any woman as an equal. But that would be wrong.

Now excuse me while I go get me a white man since THEY know how to treat a woman. Razz

please read the topic to this thread and it's first post...that post is at least as 'miserable'. Does the first post or this topic 'reply on stereotypes'??...i think so. Maybe in a different forum, my comments would be 'out of line', but here, they are fitting. Good luck with the white guy. I wish you both the best WinkGod Bless you.
Smile
In order to improve the mind, we ought less to learn, than to contemplate.
-Rene Descartes
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixFemme:
quote:
Originally posted by RadioRaheem:
These 'other' races are doing a very good job at loving Black men, make Black women should take notes from them. Wink


OH NO HE DIDN'T!!!! Eek


Eek Eek Eek



Now is the time to make real the promises of Democracy.


is honesty forbidden here?? I hope not. God Bless You

In order to improve the mind, we ought less to learn, than to contemplate.
-Rene Descartes

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