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Do you have any thoughts about the Schiavo case? Should they let her die - as her husband suggests she would have wanted or do you support her parents who want her to be kept alive?

She has been brain dead for many years. Doctors say she has no hope for recovery. Should they continue to keep her alive or should they let her die naturally?

© MBM

Original Post
I have found that Black folk really do not care what happens to this woman. I am on several Black forums and this is the first Black forum I have seen mention this woman. I think we see this as just more save the white woman propaganda, be she kidnapped, braindead or found dead.

As far as the question, can you really kill someone in her situation? I guess that depends on what you think life is. As for how I see it, I think this woman been dead she just continue to breath.

The issues surrounding her life is far more interesting than talking about if she should die or not. For example; republicans are trying to keep her alive at the tax payers expense. They are willing to shell out a few hundred grand a year to keep her alive but have no such compasion for poor people.
quote:
Originally posted by Faheem:
I have found that Black folk really do not care what happens to this woman. I am on several Black forums and this is the first Black forum I have seen mention this woman. I think we see this as just more save the white woman propaganda, be she kidnapped, braindead or found dead.

As far as the question, can you really kill someone in her situation? I guess that depends on what you think life is. As for how I see it, I think this woman been dead she just continue to breath.

The issues surrounding her life is far more interesting than talking about if she should die or not. For example; republicans are trying to keep her alive at the tax payers expense. They are willing to shell out a few hundred grand a year to keep her alive but have no such compasion for poor people.


As far as weather she should live or die... I can't say. ..for the 2 hilighted reasons in Faheem's post...
I'm kind of the same way. But my main reason for not being sure how I feel is simply that it shouldn't be any of my business.

Now, Congress has made it my business, and I think these people are as hypocritical as can be. They're involved now because they want to "defend life," but where are they in the Sudan/Darfur situation? Where are they in the Congo? The only aspect of this case I have an opinion on is that the federal politicians who have gotten involved in this nonsense should be ashamed of themselves, and should stop it.
I really think he government is way out of line and to quote a question we had today at work, "would this really be an issue if the governor of FLA. did not have a brother in a certain position?"

I do believe the husband does have some alternative reasons, but if the law says he is the legitmate guardian, then why bother.

If congress really wanted to make a statement concerning the people, how about the crisis abroad or better yet, how about an amendment to do something about these kids with guns in schools?

catch
Actually, just let me add that I think it's really pitiful how Tom Delay and his cronies are standing up there talking about the value of life and how important it is to make the right decisions when it comes to ending one ... yet support the current death penalty policies in this country knowlingly executing innocent people along the way. Where is the value of life then? Confused How important is it to make the right decisions when it's a Black man in prison, instead of a White woman in a Florida hospice? Confused

It's simply amazing.
quote:
Originally posted by Kweli4Real:
Wait a minute ... Is this the same Republican Party that's trumpeting a smaller, less intrusive government?


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050322/ap_on_go_pr_wh/schiavo_conservatives

Notable quotes...

WASHINGTON - Not all conservatives are happy with the decision by Congress and President Bush (news - web sites) to intervene in the Terri Schiavo case. Some leaders said Tuesday the new law allowing a federal court review of the case is an example of the big government they have always opposed.



"To simply say that the 'culture of life,' or whatever you call it means that we don't have to pay attention to the principles of federalism or separation of powers is certainly not a conservative viewpoint," said former Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga.


Allan Lichtman, who chairs the history department at American University in Washington, said the intervention of Congress and Bush to try to overturn the decision by Schiavo's husband not to prolong her life is the antithesis of several conservative principles.


"It contradicts a lot of what those behind it say they believe: the sanctity of the family, the sacred bond between husband and wife, the ability of all of us to make private decisions without the hand of government intervening, deference to states and localities as opposed to the centralized government," said Lichtman.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
GEE! I would have thought there would have been one least one comment suggesting that people look at living wills to ensure that their wishes if something like this happen to them would be honored and followed.

But that is probably just me and how I think Wink


But would that even be necessary if she were African/Black? They probably would have pulled the plug by the husband's wishes a long time ago. The republican party sure wouldn't be jumping all over it as a threat to the "culture of life" crap if she wasn't a European...

Personally, I think living wills are a good idea...I just don't see why an African/Black person would be surprised the topic wasn't mentioned considering what would and wouldn't be going on if the lady was Black.
it is just a damn inhumane shame that they are letting her starve to death while they make up their f-king minds...this is one backwoods azz country if i've ever seen one......we got ignorant azz bigoted southern white males making decisions on everything and f-king everything up...including placing this place in grave danger with that arrogant azz brand of southern inbred imperialism.......dammit!~!
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
it is just a damn inhumane shame that they are letting her starve to death while they make up their f-king minds...this is one backwoods azz country if i've ever seen one......we got ignorant azz bigoted southern white males making decisions on everything and f-king everything up...including placing this place in grave danger with that arrogant azz brand of southern inbred imperialism.......dammit!~!


You sound like my inner voice...
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:

it is just a damn inhumane shame that they are letting her starve to death while they make up their f-king minds...


Despite her diminished brain capacity (and perhaps ability to "feel") does that make our torture of her any more moral? I know they are just "letting her die naturally", but however you look at it, isn't starving someone to death torture? sad

BTW - I support her being allowed to expire. I just agree that the way they are doing it is rather antediluvian.
quote:
Originally posted by Oshun Auset:
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
GEE! I would have thought there would have been one least one comment suggesting that people look at living wills to ensure that their wishes if something like this happen to them would be honored and followed.

But that is probably just me and how I think Wink


But would that even be necessary if she were African/Black? They probably would have pulled the plug by the husband's wishes a long time ago. The republican party sure wouldn't be jumping all over it as a threat to the "culture of life" crap if she wasn't a European...

Personally, I think living wills are a good idea...I just don't see why an African/Black person would be surprised the topic wasn't mentioned considering what would and wouldn't be going on if the lady was Black.


I'm surprised because anybody that cares about what happens after they pass whether they be white or black should be considering these issues. I've had a will for over 20 years that addressed the care of my kids (now grown) and the distribution of my property. For me it was necessary since my oldest child is my stepson and I wanted to make sure that he was not left out, of course since the will was written I have formally adopted him so now it is a moot point, but at the time I clearly stated what I expected to happen to him and included him in the distribution of my estate.

Your question as to what would have happen if she was black is the absolute very reason people should be looking at this case and deciding for themselves do they really want the state to decide their fate when their wishes are not clearly known. If that woman had even simply left a handwritten note, this issue would have been decided 15 years ago.

Bottom line, if you can't trust the state to handle you and your affairs when you can speak do you really want them to handle them when you can't.
Although the Feds should've stayed out of it, the whole feeding-tube thing/starvation & dehydration is a problem for me with this. I haven't followed the story enough to know, but when the husband says Terri Schiavo insisted she didn't want to be kept alive, did she understand that death would be from thirst, while also starving? Normally when I think of pulling the plug, it's life support having to do with keeping the heart beating. Do these cases usually involve feeding tubes? Did she understand that when she made her choice? And can she in any way perceive the physical distress of dehyration & starvation? It seems pretty barbaric.
Back in the days before all of this medical technology, a person in Terri's circumstances would have been kept comfortable, at home, with family around her. She would be unable to swallow and her family would love her and support her as God took her home.

Today, it's just not like that at all. One of the most misunderstood concepts is that people who have severely diminished brain function and the terminally ill feel hunger and thirst like the rest of us. NOT TRUE! Yet we compare our concept of hunger (along with good smells, tastes, chewing, flavors, the satisfaction of feeling full) and our concept of thirst (working out in the hot sun and finally a glass of cool water or iced tea)...but for those unfortunate people, it isn't like that at all. God has designed us most wonderfully, and there is a natural slowing down of body systems. The desire to eat and drink just isn't there like we think it would be. And there are many ways to keep her comfortable.

I do not believe she's in PVS, but rather has very marginal brain function caused by her cardiac arrest. There is NO therapy, NO regrowth of damaged brain tissue and NO WAY she can ever get better. Loss of oxygen to the brain does that to people. She's alive just enough to be really, really screwed. Yep, there are plenty of things worse than death.

Now, death by Congressional Committee. Sheesh. The woman has had more due process than other patient in the history of our planet. It's like if dad says no, we'll ask mom, and if she says no, we ask grandma, and if she says no..... And the bazillions of dollars spent on a case like this could have provided so much care, so many vaccinations, so many other things. How awful that the richest country in the world has bake sales and raffles to fund organ transplants.

Yes, there are some mighty unsavory circumstances about her case, but every ethics case I ever sat in had unsavory elements. The law must uphold the husband's right as next of kin to do what his wife would have wanted. To change that law is to really open Pandora's box. What would be next, a dissenting grandparent's cousin of an uncle once removed who would take care of a patient or disagree with a course of treatment so then.....what?

I hope no one ever loves me like her parents "love" her. Don't ever want to be in the "feed and water-turn and wipe" category. We went to the lawyer's office years ago on the day we got our marriage license and had our first living will drawn up.

Just because we have the technology doesn't mean we have to use it in every case.

As for the "when God wants her, when God calls her home" line of thought, as a responsible Christian and nurse of 20 years I gotta say that's the biggest buncha hogwash I hear on a regular basis. No different than Pontious Pilate washing his hands to absolve his responsibility. Life and death just doesn't work that way in techno world. We're too good at what we do and we play God all the time in carrying out families' wishes.

Terri has a heart attack (God's calling...)
We do CPR and all other stuff (human intervention, human accountability)
Terri can't swallow (God's calling LOUDER)
We put in a feeding tube (human behavior again) and hook it up to a pump.
Terri develops pneumonia (CALLLING LOUDER)
We put in an IV and do a few rounds of antibiotics
Terri's kidneys fail, or lungs fail, or whatever. We've got dialysis, ventilators, external devices that can assist in heart failure, all kinds of toys for all kinds of needs...

People say "Well, I just don't want any machines."

Really? Which machine would that be? The ventilator, the pacemaker, the dialysis machine, the feeding tube pump?

Somehow, families want to think "God would take her if it was her time" and "We did all we could". Those are two very opposite things!!! In a situation like this you can't have it both ways! Unless....

...maybe "doing all we can" means compassion, making her comfortable and letting her slip away to a place where she is joyful and whole. Maybe it means curtailing her earthly suffering. Maybe it means stretching our minds and realizing that any time we intervene, we are accountable - not God.

I hope she sees the light and runs towards it as fast as she can.

Sure beats another round of tube feeding, diapers, bedsores and being turned every two hours.

So talk it over with your families and put it in writing. Use this case as a springboard for discussion. God willing, none of our families will ever be put in that awful, horrible place where they have to make that kind of decision. But if so, giving clear WRITTEN guidelines will go a long way towards guiding them, preventing infighting among your loved ones and bitterness. It can ease their pain and help them heal. This case law is going to eventually impact every person in the US, black, white, green or purple.
Still..I wouldn't just sit there and even let a dog starve to death......that schit is inhumane regardless of what the hell the issues are...human nature is supposed to be about self-preservation first and species preservation second....look it up......just sitting there looking at a person while they starve is not even done to people who murder and rape children...they are at least fed..this lady did not even committ a crime...and I doubt like hell if she volunteered to be in this condition...so why is she now paying a price for being in such a condition? This reminds me of the jury I served on...that helped me to conclude one thing...if your life is in the hands of others and the courts....you're
f-ked........
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
BTW - I support her being allowed to expire. I just agree that the way they are doing it is rather antediluvian.


I hear ya... What would you suggest? What would be a "humane" way to "let her die"?


Here in Oregon the voters passed a right to die measure a couple of years ago that allows a doctor to prescribe a lethal dose of medication that essentially puts you to sleep for good. To have it happen you had to be in a terminally ill position, which obiviously one could argue is going to happen after about 7-10 days of no food or water to this poor woman and it took at least two other doctors to confirm the condition and the hopelessness of the condition.

Needless to say the measure as passed by the voters in Oregon has been under assualt by AG Ashcroft and his attack dogs. Oregon has always been a liberal progressive state and this was a measure I voted in support of. I think a person has the right to die with a little dignity versus being forced to live by a tube inserted in your stomach. Not the way I would want to live.
It seems that the main issues in the Schiavo case are being over looked, even by the courts who have been deciding on this issue, for instance, she married her husband after only knowing him for 1 year (therefore, it would seem that her parents knew more of what she really wanted or believed than he), that every time the court has decided in the favor of the husband, they seem to never consider the fact that there is nothing in writing, and are basing their decisions purely on the word of a man who could be telling them anything, also, it is rarely mentioned that when she initially became ill and EMS had to be called, that when ems arrived, their whole house was in such disarry (as if a fight had accurred) that the ems called the police; also, it seems rather odd that a woman so young would all of a sudden have a heart attact---she was only around thirty/something when this happened----maybe it is the conspiracy theorist in me, but I see the husband as trying a little too hard to make sure this woman dies vs. lives for them to have been so youngs and to have been married after only knowing each other for about 1 year.

Personally, I see what they are doing as straight murder because of the fact that they are going to let this woman literally starve to death, otherwise, she is alive and her brain-dead status or amount of, is disputed dependent upon which doctor has analized her. Usually when people say that do not want to be kept alive if they are brain dead, etc., they actually mean that if the only thing keeping them breathing is a machine and they are also brain dead (definitely), then they want the machines to be disconnected. I don't think they mean if they are living and only need food and water like any other human being.

Another thing that this case brings up is does Congress, the Governor and the President of the Untied States truely have the right to intervene in such a matter? Their intervention in the way that they have used their status/power to interfere with civil matters/the state/etc., is constitutionally questionable and if goes unchecked, may leave a loop hole open for political/religous/etc., beliefs to be forced upon the general populous without the clear weight of law/legality/or constitutionality.
Hello Everyone,
I am new here and my name is Felix aka folobatuyi. My thoughts on the Schiavo case is this...personally I think she should be let go....placed on an IV morphine drip and allowed to go peacefully. I guess the sad part of this is thta it may be true that she may have never wanted this but in the absence of a written willing, it is her husband's word against that of her parents' wishes.
On a second note, the thing that bothers me is the interjection by the government (a Republican at that) into what is a personal affair....I thought the platform of the Republican party was one of less governmental involvement...oh I am sorry....it involves quasi-religious themes and hence the Bushes must intervene as requested by their right conservative support group.
Personally, I just don't understand the hopla...chances of her regaining any meaningful quality is slim to none. So, why consume countless tax dollars and countless hours of manpower that could used for someelse? Put her on a morphine and she would pass away
peacefully....

Felix
quote:
Originally posted by AudioGuy:

quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
BTW - I support her being allowed to expire. I just agree that the way they are doing it is rather antediluvian.


I hear ya... What would you suggest? What would be a "humane" way to "let her die"?


I'm sure Jack Kervorkian has an answer. sck BTW - has anyone ever heard of anyone wanting themeselves to be kept alive under these circumstances?
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

Did she understand that when she made her choice? And can she in any way perceive the physical distress of dehyration & starvation? It seems pretty barbaric.


I think the crux of the matter has to do with how we perceive what's happening as opposed to what Terry is experiencing. She is experiencing nothing as I understand it.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by MBM:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:

Did she understand that when she made her choice? And can she in any way perceive the physical distress of dehyration & starvation? It seems pretty barbaric.


I think the crux of the matter has to do with how we perceive what's happening as opposed to what Terry is experiencing. She is experiencing nothing.

Excellent point.
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:
I think that its interesting the husband is not allowing any pictures or video of her to be made, perhaps he fears that if people see what she is going though...

HHHMMMM... that sounds a lot like the strategy that was used by the bush admin. to filter the impact of the gulf war death toll...
quote:
Originally posted by jazzdog:

I think that its interesting the husband is not allowing any pictures or video of her to be made, perhaps he fears that if people see what she is going though, maybe even a judge might have a change of heart.


On the other hand, perhaps he is concerned about the continuing exploitation of his wife for political gain. There is also the issue of her basic human privacy and dignity in her final moments.

As I asked earlier, is there anyone here who would want to be kept alive under her conditions? Would you be cool with others keeping you alive if you were in a 'persistent vegetative state' - from which you could never return? It's funny how the religious folks arguing to keep her alive don't see it as against God's will that we are artificially keeping her alive. If it were really God's will she would have been dead many many years ago.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
folobatuyi,

please do not mention your tax dollars after all of them have gone to the rich for tax cuts and that drummed-up lie of a war.....at least they would be used for something humane for a change



Dear Kevin41,
I cannot argue with you on the point of taxes. But I feel it would be more humane to let the lady go in peace and dignity instead of making the case such a political showcase.

Felix

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