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Middlebrook church set fire; anti-gay messages found


National church recently approved of same-sex marriage


By Jonathan D. Jones/staff
jjones@newsleader.com


Mike Tripp/The News Leader
Hate arson
Lt. Tim McCray and John Pilson of the Middlebrook Volunteer Fire Department exit a side door not far from a graffiti that reads "GAYS LOVERS" at St. John's Reformed United Church of Christ near Middlebrook on Saturday morning. Anti-gay graffiti and a suspicious fire were at the church that morning.


MIDDLEBROOK "” A small fire was set in St. John's Reformed United Church of Christ this morning and anti-gay graffiti was painted on the side of the building.

The outside of the church was vandalized with anti-gay messages and a declaration that United Church of Christ members were sinners. The graffiti's message appeared to be a reference to the national church's decision earlier this week to endorse gay and lesbian marriages.

The United Church of Christ's General Synod voted Monday in Atlanta to approve a resolution that is accepting of gay and lesbian marriages but is not binding on local congregations.

A member of the congregation discovered the graffiti Saturday morning when he stopped by to mow the grass. He went into the church building, and when he opened the sanctuary there was still a small fire.

The Middlebrook Volunteer Fire Company responded, and it only took a few minutes to put the fire out, Lt. Tim McCray said. He deferred any questions about the cause of the fire to police investigators.

A Virginia State Police fire investigator was on the scene Saturday afternoon, but declined to comment. The Augusta County Sheriff's Office initially responded and a deputy was there assisting.

Firefighters removed a stack of burned hymnals. Police cordoned off the sanctuary, but through the windows a portion of the choir loft and a pew that had been damaged by the fire were visible.

Smoke damage will keep the congregation out of its sanctuary, but members still intend to have a 225th anniversary celebration tomorrow. They'll move it onto the front lawn and use tents, Pastor Darcas Lohr said.

It's the second time in the last 30 years that St. John's has caught fire. Four people, three juveniles and a Staunton man in his 20s, were arrested on arson charges after an Aug. 1, 1978, blaze destroyed most of the church's sanctuary.

http://www.newsleader.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050709/NEWS01/50709002

Original Post
This is ignorant and uncalled for.

These folks are operating little differently than the terrorists in Iraq who only know hot to get their way via violence.

A person with religious conviction destorying property or killing a doctor that performs abortions has much in common with the people they are acting against.
It's funny how this man insists on making this into a pro homosexual rights sight. You'd think that engaging in homosexuality turned them into saints or gods of some sort. In fact, most homosexual violence is committed between homosexuals themselves or incited by homosexuals making unwanted advances to others. They seem to love to harass, slander, and bully people who resist their sexual advances and have no respect for whether others practice homosexuality or not, only their OWN appetite and interests concern them. Many make persistent, unwanted, annoying, advances to people and become very angry, offended, and vengeful against those who resist their advances or disagree with their lifestyle.

One time a neighboring, masculine acting lesbian pretended to be congenial, speaking every day and going out of her way to run into me. She progressively became aggressive and started acting like a stalker, trying to get all into my business and doing anything to get attention. Then, one day after it was obvious her front wasn't going to pan out she came out of no where and attempted to attack me out by my car, calling me names including 'homophobe' and the ˜n' word of course. She was white and obviously felt I should be honored to forsake my womanhood in order to scratch her sick itch. But I'm not color-struck like all those ignorant black men who she might be able to impress. I also found out that this woman was known to harass and bully women and got into loads of fights. These conducts is not uncommon, but look at the convenient double standard in which homosexuals can't be judged but are free to judge everyone else.
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:
It's funny how this man insists on making this into a pro homosexual rights sight. You'd think that engaging in homosexuality turned them into saints or gods of some sort. In fact, most homosexual violence is committed between homosexuals themselves or incited by homosexuals making unwanted advances to others. They seem to love to harass, slander, and bully people who resist their sexual advances and have no respect for whether others practice homosexuality or not, only their OWN appetite and interests concern them. Many make persistent, unwanted, annoying, advances to people and become very angry, offended, and vengeful against those who resist their advances or disagree with their lifestyle.

One time a neighboring, masculine acting lesbian pretended to be congenial, speaking every day and going out of her way to run into me. She progressively became aggressive and started acting like a stalker, trying to get all into my business and doing anything to get attention. Then, one day after it was obvious her front wasn't going to pan out she came out of no where and attempted to attack me out by my car, calling me names including 'homophobe' and the ˜n' word of course. She was white and obviously felt I should be honored to forsake my womanhood in order to scratch her sick itch. But I'm not color-struck like all those ignorant black men who she might be able to impress. I also found out that this woman was known to harass and bully women and got into loads of fights. These conducts is not uncommon, but look at the convenient double standard in which homosexuals can't be judged but are free to judge everyone else.


***I always wondered why gays have to let everyone know that they are gay...i'm kool on them and I guess my facial expression is too damn repulsive to sway them my way....but I always wondered why they just don't keep their bedroom practices to themselves like everyone else does..........
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:
It's funny how this man insists on making this into a pro homosexual rights sight. You'd think that engaging in homosexuality turned them into saints or gods of some sort. In fact, most homosexual violence is committed between homosexuals themselves or incited by homosexuals making unwanted advances to others. They seem to love to harass, slander, and bully people who resist their sexual advances and have no respect for whether others practice homosexuality or not, only their OWN appetite and interests concern them. Many make persistent, unwanted, annoying, advances to people and become very angry, offended, and vengeful against those who resist their advances or disagree with their lifestyle.

One time a neighboring, masculine acting lesbian pretended to be congenial, speaking every day and going out of her way to run into me. She progressively became aggressive and started acting like a stalker, trying to get all into my business and doing anything to get attention. Then, one day after it was obvious her front wasn't going to pan out she came out of no where and attempted to attack me out by my car, calling me names including 'homophobe' and the ˜n' word of course. She was white and obviously felt I should be honored to forsake my womanhood in order to scratch her sick itch. But I'm not color-struck like all those ignorant black men who she might be able to impress. I also found out that this woman was known to harass and bully women and got into loads of fights. These conducts is not uncommon, but look at the convenient double standard in which homosexuals can't be judged but are free to judge everyone else.


I worked for a government agency for five years that employed a large number of gays. Of the 55-60 people in my department, I was one of only 10-12 "straight" people. In only one case in those five years did I ever experience, witness, or hear stories of this aggressive "in-your-face" kind of behavior. This was an eight - twelve hours per day job, five days a week.

My experience with gay people during these five years was the opposite of what has been described in some posts on this board. My experience was, that like all other groups, the gay community has it's jerks and it's really decent human beings... with most falling somewhere in-between.

Some of the most creative and influential people in history have been gay. James Baldwin, Alan Turing... the list is endless. Some of the best and brightest people in the department where I worked were gay.

But the real issue is whether gay related subject matter belongs on this site. AA.org is a declared African American forum. It is stated as such, and in an e-mail, MBM said that AfricanAmerica.org "focuses on issues of particular interest to the African American community."

So, logically the question is, are gay issues of "interest to the African American community"? I don't know; are they?

If not, then gay issues shouldn't be posted here.

Unless, of course the focus of the site has changed to include all forms of group discrimination.

I admit, I need guidance and interpretation on this issue. Perhaps a timely word from our founder, leader, and father-figure is needed. Michael?


CW
you have a good point CW and freedom of information and posting is a good thing....but the gay issue is separate and apart from black civil rights issues and the line between the two should stay drawn. I am not saying their agenda is not important...it is just that the average heterosexual black may see other things as more important to THEM.........
quote:
Some of the most creative and influential people in history have been gay. James Baldwin, Alan Turing... the list is endless. Some of the best and brightest people in the department where I worked were gay.


First of all, the fact that someone practices homosexuality doesn't have a da*n thing to do with them being creative or not any more then drinking alcohol or eating ice cream does. So don't try to grant credibility to one type of behavior by inappropriately relating to another one it has nothing to do with. Also, very few people of ANY sort would make openly aggressive sexual advances in the work place...They'd be a fool if they did! Naturally people tend to be very conniving and subtle about such things in the work place across the board. Also, if this is supposed to be a black site why allow a white person to call the shots? Don't you ever tire of them trying to lord over blacks and assert their own agenda? Or perhaps you are not black.
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:
quote:
Some of the most creative and influential people in history have been gay. James Baldwin, Alan Turing... the list is endless. Some of the best and brightest people in the department where I worked were gay.


First of all, the fact that someone practices homosexuality doesn't have a da*n thing to do with them being creative or not any more then drinking alcohol or eating ice cream does. So don't try to grant credibility to one type of behavior by inappropriately relating to another one it has nothing to do with. Also, very few people of ANY sort would make openly aggressive sexual advances in the work place...They'd be a fool if they did! Naturally people tend to be very conniving and subtle about such things in the work place across the board. Also, if this is supposed to be a black site why allow a white person to call the shots? Don't you ever tire of them trying to lord over blacks and assert their own agenda? Or perhaps you are not black.

Hmmm! Drinking alcohol might well impact someones creativity.

The first few paragraphs were commentary, a rebuttal of what you've implied. It was not an attempt to connect behavior.

Homosexuality does not bother me. And as I said, they are people with all of the same qualites of other people.

The last paragraphs were a statement of the issue. You should re-read what I said, especially the last few lines. I didn't take a position on the issue of whether gay topics should be presented here. I simply asked the question.

I don't see how I could have stated it plainer. But for your sake, I'll try:

Are gay related topics appropriate for this BB? Yes or no?

How's that?

CW
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:
In fact, most homosexual violence is committed between homosexuals themselves or incited by homosexuals making unwanted advances to others. They seem to love to harass, slander, and bully people who resist their sexual advances and have no respect for whether others practice homosexuality or not, only their OWN appetite and interests concern them. Many make persistent, unwanted, annoying, advances to people and become very angry, offended, and vengeful against those who resist their advances or disagree with their lifestyle.

Also,

I'm sorry for your experiences with your neighbor. It's always difficult when you have problems with someone who lives close to you.

But one cherry doesn't make a pie (maybe I should re-phrase that).

Okay... can you verify this statement by citing some reliable references? Not isolated cases, but statistically reliable source(s) that confirms "most", aka 51% or greater... that "most homosexual violence is committed between homosexuals themselves"? Can you verify some of the other statements you've made?

How 'bout unreliable source(s)?

National Star?

Okay, I'll just take your word for it.


CW
Last edited {1}
quote:
My experience with gay people during these five years was the opposite of what has been described in some posts on this board. My experience was, that like all other groups, the gay community has it's jerks and it's really decent human beings... with most falling somewhere in-between.


thanks

quote:
But the real issue is whether gay related subject matter belongs on this site. AA.org is a declared African American forum. It is stated as such, and in an e-mail, MBM said that AfricanAmerica.org "focuses on issues of particular interest to the African American community."

So, logically the question is, are gay issues of "interest to the African American community"? I don't know; are they?


I'm sure it is of direct interest to the Black gay people who visit this site and it is also of interest to those of us who take an interest in the attacks on other minority groups because of their minority status.

People keep speaking about "gay issues" as if there are no Black gay people; like the 2 groups are completely separate. I would be disappointed to see some kind of mandate against posting articles about the gay community, as if they couldn't possibly be of any interest to anyone Black. But I guess the decision lies with MBM.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
I'm sure it is of direct interest to the Black gay people who visit this site and it is also of interest to those of us who take an interest in the attacks on other minority groups because of their minority status.

People keep speaking about "gay issues" as if there are no Black gay people; like the 2 groups are completely separate. I would be disappointed to see some kind of mandate against posting articles about the gay community, as if they couldn't possibly be of any interest to anyone Black. But I guess the decision lies with MBM.

Exactly,
As I stated in a previous post http://africanamerica.org/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/79160213/m/7711084852/r/4191030062#4191030062
I am constantly fascinated by the rhetoric that expunges the likes of Bessie Smith, Bayard Rustin, Langston Hughes, Alain Locke, Wallace Thurman, Countee Cullen, Claude McKay, James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, Lorraine Hansberry, Barbara Jordan, Angela Davis, et. al. from the Black community.
Now if we were to post stories of gays abducting children and murdering them or gays groping each other in the street or running down a pastor, you would call that gay bashing wouldn't you?. Even though they are real events you prefer to attempt to find only something ˜positive' or compassionate to say about being gay. Now he posts this picture of a wall with graffiti on it that for all I know could have been written by the gays themselves since they are always crying for attention. It's really weak if you think about it, all it says is ˜Gays Lover', what does that mean? It could mean just about anything and may have been written by gay kids thinking it's positive. I've seen a lot worse and blatant anti black graffiti, etc. but I don't see anyone posting it on a web site to try and prove that racism against blacks exists. We all KNOW that exists, no one goes out of the way to make a case for it, and the fact you're infringing with this homo stuff demonstrates your efforts to undermine racism against blacks with a pointless diversion.
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:

Now he posts this picture of a wall with graffiti on it that for all I know could have been written by the gays themselves since they are always crying for attention. It's really weak if you think about it, all it says is ˜Gays Lover', what does that mean? It could mean just about anything and may have been written by gay kids thinking it's positive.


shemika,

Was the fire also a positive statement?

Speaking of pictures of grafiti, here's a picture from right here at ISU, the university where I work, from the student newspaper earlier this week. Perhaps you can find some hidden positive meaning in the message of "Save ISU, Kill Fags", too?

quote:

July 07, 2005

Spray-paint hate


Multiple hate messages mar sidewalks across campus




http://www.iowastatedaily.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/07/07/42cc96a6c3938

quote:
...and the fact you're infringing with this homo stuff demonstrates your efforts to undermine racism against blacks with a pointless diversion.


Exactly who have I infringed on, and exactly what efforts have I made to "undermine racism against blacks" (I won't even bother asking why "undermining racism against blacks" would be considered a bad thing, since I assume from the general tone of your comments that you mispoke in the wording of that phrase.)

bs
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:
Now if we were to post stories of gays abducting children and murdering them or gays groping each other in the street or running down a pastor, you would call that gay bashing wouldn't you?. Even though they are real events you prefer to attempt to find only something ˜positive' or compassionate to say about being gay. Now he posts this picture of a wall with graffiti on it that for all I know could have been written by the gays themselves since they are always crying for attention. It's really weak if you think about it, all it says is ˜Gays Lover', what does that mean? It could mean just about anything and may have been written by gay kids thinking it's positive. I've seen a lot worse and blatant anti black graffiti, etc. but I don't see anyone posting it on a web site to try and prove that racism against blacks exists. We all KNOW that exists, no one goes out of the way to make a case for it, and the fact you're infringing with this homo stuff demonstrates your efforts to undermine racism against blacks with a pointless diversion.


Frenchy!!! Long time, no see!! We're on the same side, this time. I've learned a lot since we locked horns on the MJ trial. I've always followed your posts ever since. When do you start Law School?


Shemika,

I don't know where you get these stories from. I have never heard of a gay person abducting children and murdering them. I suppose you could find such stories on Internet gay hate sites, but I wouldn't exactly call these stories reliable. They're often a combination hate-everyone-in-the-world-except-whites web sites.

I don't have the numbers but I believe the greatest number of child abductions are committed by parents fighting over custody of their children. The remainder are committed by pedophiles and other really sick people. Gay men are not pedophiles. It is a total misconception.

Yes, I have seen gay men and women kissing and hugging in public. But I've seen a lot more heterosexual men and women embracing in public. As for groping, I've never seen that, in the work-place or in public.

I don't know of this case of a pastor being run down that you speak of and no ones is trying to minimize the injustice and the hurt of anti-Black graffiti and racism.

But I simply do not agree with your characterizations of gays and lesbians.

Many of the names that Kresge listed were giants of the Civil Rights movement. Angela Davis... she took on the FBI and the whole U.S. government. She has been a powerful voice criticizing the imprisonment of Black men.

Maybe I should have toned-down my question to be "Do gay topics have a place here". Kevin41 feels that black civil rights issues and gay issue should be kept separate, and I think that you agree. That's fine. After all, this is defined as a African American BB, and if these issues are to be kept separate, then topics dealing with gay issues should not be posted here.

But as Frenchy said, "the decision lies with MBM". He is the final arbiter. But it seems that we have skirted the question without a definitive answer.

I'll leave you with a quotation from an article published in Ebony Magazine in September of 1990.

"Harold Robinson, co-chair of the board of Gay Men of African Descent, says that the contributions of Black gays and lesbians to the arts, education and politics is so great that it is unconscionable that their accomplishments and sexual preference are not publicly acknoweldged."

Here is the full link in case you want to read it:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1077/is_n11_v45/ai_9342015
I am not referring to this site....i think they should be kept separate and not even discussed in the same breath.....but to put it politely....with all the schit that black people have faced at the hands of others....what is spray painting on a wall?.....hell a black man gets dragged to death by racists...for being black, not because of his CHOSEN behavior....like I said, i'm kool on gays but they need to let their fight be a gay-rights fight......
quote:
Originally posted by chilewillow:
Frenchy!!! Long time, no see!! We're on the same side, this time. I've learned a lot since we locked horns on the MJ trial. I've always followed your posts ever since. When do you start Law School?


Hey chilewillow!! Good to see ya! I move to Atlanta to start law school on August 20th. Can't wait! cabbage

quote:
i think they should be kept separate and not even discussed in the same breath.....


Did you see the comments above yours, Kevin41? First, the two cannot always be kept separate and apart from each other because there are Black gay people. Second, you should be concerned about any occurence where lunatics start bombing (not just spray painting) places because they don't like a particular minority group. What on makes you think these same morons don't have the same irrational hatred of Black people or women or any other group outside of white men? What about caring about what happens to your fellow man?


And Then They Came For Me...(Reverend Martin Niemöller)

They came for the Communists, and I didn't object -
For I wasn't a Communist;
They came for the Socialists, and I didn't object-
For I wasn't a Socialist;
They came for the labor leaders, and I didn't object-
For I wasn't a labor leader;
They came for the Jews, and I didn't object-
For I wasn't a Jew;
Then they came for me-
And there was no one left to object.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by chilewillow:
Frenchy!!! Long time, no see!! We're on the same side, this time. I've learned a lot since we locked horns on the MJ trial. I've always followed your posts ever since. When do you start Law School?


Hey chilewillow!! Good to see ya! I move to Atlanta to start law school on August 20th. Can't wait! cabbage

quote:
i think they should be kept separate and not even discussed in the same breath.....


Did you see the comments above yours, Kevin41? First, the two cannot always be kept separate and apart from each other because there are Black gay people. Second, you should be concerned about any occurence where lunatics start bombing (not just spray painting) places because they don't like a particular minority group. What on makes you think these same morons don't have the same irrational hatred of Black people or women or any other group outside of white men? What about caring about what happens to your fellow man?


And Then They Came For Me...(Reverend Martin Niemöller)

They came for the Communists, and I didn't object -
For I wasn't a Communist;
They came for the Socialists, and I didn't object-
For I wasn't a Socialist;
They came for the labor leaders, and I didn't object-
For I wasn't a labor leader;
They came for the Jews, and I didn't object-
For I wasn't a Jew;
Then they came for me-
And there was no one left to object.


Frenchy,

I know you're going to be a great attorney! I hope you decide to help people who are powerless and fight social injustice instead of going for the money (well, maybe you can do both. Unfortunately, money = power in this society, to a greater extent then other societies).

Anyway, I've always remembered that poem you cited since the first time I saw it. I was young, naive, altruistic and I'd never heard of the Holocaust. Then I stumbled across a book of photographs in a library about the Holocaust and that poem was on the front page. I was stunned by the pictures in the book... anyway, I couldn't believe such a thing could happen.

But everything turned-out for the best. Now I'm cynical, jaded, and suspicious.

The same people who are spray painting anti-gay graffiti on Monday are spray painting anti-Black graffiti on Tuesday.

CW
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frenchy:

Did you see the comments above yours, Kevin41? First, the two cannot always be kept separate and apart from each other because there are Black gay people. Second, you should be concerned about any occurence where lunatics start bombing (not just spray painting) places because they don't like a particular minority group. What on makes you think these same morons don't have the same irrational hatred of Black people or women or any other group outside of white men? What about caring about what happens to your fellow man?

** I am a black male...the most persecuted SOB in this country....where in the f-k has my fellow man been? all of those movements, diversity, gay rights and all of that confounds the fight for people like ME......I have had to go it alone for the most part so i do not need no damn opportunist piggy backing on my problem as if it has been his all the while....you remember any gays marching with MLK openly saying their struggles are the same? hell no...let black gays march with the gay rights types......they have more in common than I do with any of them...and again....i do not take a stance on gay issues but they are not MY issues to address.....mine existed waay before gayness became a novelty in this country...which is kool....that is their business...and i have mine...but black people started their struggle along...and every other non-white piggybacked off of the effort.....ran through the doors WE opened and then slammed them in our face......so now, a coalition is fruitless...it doesn't take me but once to learn my lesson about being used to advance the agenda of others...without getting proportional benefits for my efforts....hell, look how affirmative action is used by a bunch of people not affected by jim crow at all to the extent black people suffered from it.....do you see these people ever in black communities complaining about the conditions, schools and crime there? hell no......just like white people for the most part.....don't fuck with black people unless they can find them useful.....look at how racist the right wing is with their bob jones universities and supremacist beliefs......they embrace blacks allright....but look what kind they choose.....not a free-thinking independent black who sees himself as an equal.....no they look for blacks that they can be paternal with....and indoctrinate them to walk the walk and talk the talk that is best for THEIR agenda....not the black person who they are using.....they all go the route of Jc watts and armstrong williams....use em until they try to be independent thinking or f-k up....then toss their azzes out like refuse.....look at the guy who ran against obama...he was used to flunky bigtime...and i remember a time when they physically locked the doors to keep this negro out of their convention.....i would have ran against obama allright....and got up there and called them a bunch of inbred racist sonofabitches...to make sure obama won......but those negroes do not have a spinal cord...they are more like the jellyfish.....
Referring to MLK, here are some of the things that Coretta Scott King has said about the relationship between the gay and black civil rights:

Coretta Scott King: Homophobia Same as Racism

Make Room At The Table for Lesbian and Gay People


Coretta Scott King, speaking four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband's assassination, said Tuesday the civil rights leader's memory demanded a strong stand for gay and lesbian rights.

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice," she said. "But I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.' I appeal to everyone who believes in Martin Luther King Jr.'s dream to make room at the table of brother- and sisterhood for lesbian and gay people," she said.

Reuters, March 31, 1998.

Homophobia is Like Racism and Anti- Semitism

Speaking before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel, Coretta Scott King, the wife of the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Tuesday called on the civil rights community to join in the struggle against homophobia
and anti-gay bias. "Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood," King
stated. "This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spread all too easily to victimize the next minority group."

Chicago Defender, April 1, 1998, front page.

MLK's Struggle Parallels The Gay Rights Movement

Quoting a passage from her late husband's writing, Coretta Scott King reaffirmed her stance on gay and lesbian rights Tuesday at a luncheon celebrating the 25 anniversary of the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund,
a national gay rights organization. "We are all tied together in a single garment of destiny . . . I can never be what I ought to be until you are allowed to be what you ought to be," she said, quoting her husband.
"I've always felt that homophobic attitudes and policies were unjust and unworthy of a free society and must be opposed by all Americans who believe in
democracy," King told 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton, days before the 30th anniversary of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s assassination on April 4, 1968. She said the civil rights movement "thrives on unity and
inclusion, not division and exclusion." Her husband's struggle parallels that of the gay rights movement, she said.

Chicago Sun Times, April 1, 1998, p.18.

Mrs. King is Outspoken Supporter of Gay and Lesbian People

"For many years now, I have been an outspoken supporter of civil and human rights for gay and lesbian people," King said at the 25th Anniversary Luncheon for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund.... "Gays and lesbians stood up for civil rights in Montgomery, Selma, in Albany, Ga. and St. Augustine, Fla., and many other campaigns of the Civil Rights Movement," she said. "Many of these courageous men and women were fighting for my freedom at a time when they could find few voices for their own, and I salute their contributions."

Chicago Tribune, April 1, 1998, sec.2, p.4.


Sexual Orientation is a Fundamental Human Right

"We have a lot more work to do in our common struggle against bigotry and discrimination. I say "common struggle" because I believe very strongly that all forms of bigotry and discrimination are equally wrong and should be opposed by right-thinking Americans everywhere. Freedom from discrimination based on sexual orientation is surely a fundamental human right in any great democracy, as much as freedom from racial, religious, gender, or ethnic discrimination."

The Advocate -- Coretta Scott King remarks, Opening Plenary Session, 13th annual Creating Change conference of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Atlanta, Georgia, November 9, 2000.
I feel ya and won't even argue the point...i just find it ironic that everyone parallels their fight with the civil rights movement...then work to distance themselves from the black masses once they perceive progress is made.....hell look at immigration....people used the civil rights movement to foster that.....and now all others do is use blacks as a consumer base and do not even offer to hire a black in their establishments that have black customers....why couldn't gays pick the feminist movement, or environmental or animal rights or another movement? why did it have to be the black collective struggle that is being convoluted into something else....i saw the black struggle get mixed in with the diversity movement while ignoring what black people went through specifically...it was kool to identify with blacks then...once diversity became the norm and more people were included, they distance themselves from blacks as multiculturalists who do not want to have schit to do with black people now....and as soon as gays get what they perceive to be equality....the first thing they will say is that it is a sexual preference issue, not a racial issue...so you straight blacks are on your own.....I am tired of black people being the waiters and servers in the restaurant of life....let us sit down at the damn table for a change, place OUR order and let others wait on us....i'm kool with everyone but the coalition idea is dead in the water to me.......when schit is rough for others...they identify with us....when it is not rough....we are left on our own......let some gays get out there and fight to help the CBC and others offset the way bush is f-king this country up royally........on our behalf...it "ain't" gonna happen...
quote:
Originally posted by chilewillow:

Frenchy,

I know you're going to be a great attorney!


Thank you, kindly... *bats my eyelashes*. bsm

Kevin41:
quote:
** I am a black male...the most persecuted SOB in this country....where in the f-k has my fellow man been? all of those movements, diversity, gay rights and all of that confounds the fight for people like ME


Once again, BLACK GAY MEN go through the same EXACT struggle that you do as a Black man *AND* they deal with homophia on top of it. What is unclear? Black gay men still experience this society as Black men. Before people know of your sexual orientation, they see your Black face and discriminate accordingly.

quote:
I have had to go it alone for the most part so i do not need no damn opportunist piggy backing on my problem as if it has been his all the while


Once again, it has been the Black gay man's problem all the while.

quote:
let black gays march with the gay rights types......they have more in common than I do with any of them


You cannot be serious! How can you look at another Black face and feel no kinship with that person because of sexual orientation?!?! Do you also cast aside Black asexuals or Black virgins (since you believe they don't have a sexuality until they've had sex)?? That's just absolutely ridiculous and offensive and a slice of the double-discrimination that Black gay folks go through: whitey hates you because you're Black and Black folks hate you because you're gay. Ludicrous! These are still your Black brothers and sisters whether or not you agree with their "lifestyle choices." We are all Black people FIRST. That is how society sees us and treats us. How can you look at the list of Black gay notables that kresge posted and suggest that they go and march for gay rights instead of Black rights because you have little in common with them??

quote:
and again....i do not take a stance on gay issues but they are not MY issues to address


Is that a collective "MY?" Are you the spokesperson for Black America? Do you now speak for all Black people and what is important and relevant for all of us?? Come on, now. If you are speaking only for yourself, then what, pray tell, are you doing in this thread, posting all of these messages?? Just letting us know how much you don't care about the subject matter we are discussing??

quote:
mine existed waay before gayness became a novelty in this country


kresge has debunked this myth many times and I believe he's even offered up links with further information.

quote:
but black people started their struggle along...and every other non-white piggybacked off of the effort.....ran through the doors WE opened and then slammed them in our face......so now, a coalition is fruitless...it doesn't take me but once to learn my lesson about being used to advance the agenda of others...without getting proportional benefits for my efforts


The gay community has spoken out against racial discrimination many times, both within its own community and in society at large. What sort of proportional benefits are you looking for? You really sound as if Black people as a whole have taken up arms and risked life and limb for the gay political movement and received nothing in return.

quote:
why couldn't gays pick the feminist movement, or environmental or animal rights or another movement? why did it have to be the black collective struggle that is being convoluted into something else


You keep saying this. Where are you getting this idea from?? Just because there are parallels between the two political movements and membership in both communities overlap, does not mean that one movement is "piggy-backing" off the other. Do you have some kind of quote or article or something you read that has given you this idea that gay people were waiting silently in the wings until the Civil Rights movement and then came out with a collecive "Yeah, us too!!"?

Kevin41, I'm (partly) sorry that my tone has been so harsh. I'm speaking from a place of disbelief and frustration, not anger.
Just because some blacks practice homosexuality doesn't mean everything associated with blacks has to be about homosexuality. A lot of whites practice homosexuality and they sure as hell don't include it in everything they do. So why are whites like Frenchy and Ricardo coming around insisting that be the case with blacks? And why don't they just go to a homosexual site for whites or blacks if that's so important to them. Obviously because they have to be the white dictator and center of attention....using homosexuality as an unhealthy diversion to hinder blacks from focusing on anything productive and beneficial. I WON'T fall for it; blacks need to reclaim their self respect and dignity rather then being sucked into these sorry excuses to revel in dishonoring ones gender that way. These people and anyone else promoting homosexuality DO NOT have our best interest at heart.
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:
Just because some blacks practice homosexuality doesn't mean everything associated with blacks has to be about homosexuality.


No one is saying it does. nono

quote:
So why are whites like Frenchy and Ricardo coming around insisting that be the case with blacks?


First, I'm not white. Second, quote where I have insisted that "everything associated with blacks has to be about homosexuality." Do not attribute things to me that I have not said. I am quite adept at expressing my exact thoughts.
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:
Just because some blacks practice homosexuality doesn't mean everything associated with blacks has to be about homosexuality.


Nice straw man that you've set up here. Have fun knocking it down.

quote:
So why are whites like Frenchy and Ricardo coming around insisting that be the case with blacks?


Of course, if you knew of any place where I have said this, you would have quoted me, rather than making up your own straw man. This is not the first time that you have responded to one of my threads with absolutely no indication that you have even bothered to actually read my posts before responding.

Is there some particular reason why you feel it necessary to distort, misrepresent, and lie about what I have posted?

quote:
And why don't they just go to a homosexual site for whites or blacks if that's so important to them. Obviously because they have to be the white dictator and center of attention....


I always find it amusing when new poster come to a forum, and start telling people not only what they can and can't post, but also where they can and can't post. Looks to me like you are trying to set yourself up as dictator for the site, even as you just arive here.
quote:
Originally posted by Frenchy:
quote:
Originally posted by chilewillow:

Frenchy,

I know you're going to be a great attorney!


Thank you, kindly... *bats my eyelashes*. bsm

Kevin41:
quote:
** I am a black male...the most persecuted SOB in this country....where in the f-k has my fellow man been? all of those movements, diversity, gay rights and all of that confounds the fight for people like ME


Once again, BLACK GAY MEN go through the same EXACT struggle that you do as a Black man *AND* they deal with homophia on top of it. What is unclear? Black gay men still experience this society as Black men. Before people know of your sexual orientation, they see your Black face and discriminate accordingly.

quote:
I have had to go it alone for the most part so i do not need no damn opportunist piggy backing on my problem as if it has been his all the while


Once again, it has been the Black gay man's problem all the while.

quote:
let black gays march with the gay rights types......they have more in common than I do with any of them


You cannot be serious! How can you look at another Black face and feel no kinship with that person because of sexual orientation?!?! Do you also cast aside Black asexuals or Black virgins (since you believe they don't have a sexuality until they've had sex)?? That's just absolutely ridiculous and offensive and a slice of the double-discrimination that Black gay folks go through: whitey hates you because you're Black and Black folks hate you because you're gay. Ludicrous! These are still your Black brothers and sisters whether or not you agree with their "lifestyle choices." We are all Black people FIRST. That is how society sees us and treats us. How can you look at the list of Black gay notables that kresge posted and suggest that they go and march for gay rights instead of Black rights because you have little in common with them??

quote:
and again....i do not take a stance on gay issues but they are not MY issues to address


Is that a collective "MY?" Are you the spokesperson for Black America? Do you now speak for all Black people and what is important and relevant for all of us?? Come on, now. If you are speaking only for yourself, then what, pray tell, are you doing in this thread, posting all of these messages?? Just letting us know how much you don't care about the subject matter we are discussing??

quote:
mine existed waay before gayness became a novelty in this country


kresge has debunked this myth many times and I believe he's even offered up links with further information.

quote:
but black people started their struggle along...and every other non-white piggybacked off of the effort.....ran through the doors WE opened and then slammed them in our face......so now, a coalition is fruitless...it doesn't take me but once to learn my lesson about being used to advance the agenda of others...without getting proportional benefits for my efforts


The gay community has spoken out against racial discrimination many times, both within its own community and in society at large. What sort of proportional benefits are you looking for? You really sound as if Black people as a whole have taken up arms and risked life and limb for the gay political movement and received nothing in return.

quote:
why couldn't gays pick the feminist movement, or environmental or animal rights or another movement? why did it have to be the black collective struggle that is being convoluted into something else


You keep saying this. Where are you getting this idea from?? Just because there are parallels between the two political movements and membership in both communities overlap, does not mean that one movement is "piggy-backing" off the other. Do you have some kind of quote or article or something you read that has given you this idea that gay people were waiting silently in the wings until the Civil Rights movement and then came out with a collecive "Yeah, us too!!"?

Kevin41, I'm (partly) sorry that my tone has been so harsh. I'm speaking from a place of disbelief and frustration, not anger.



* I am not bothered by that at all and it is not really necessary to come at me at all....I'm not the problem, I will never get in the way of gays doing whatever in the hell they like but I am not an ally nor do I feel any need of social responsibility to be one.....for the reasons I said in my post....and the word "MY" does not mean collective in anyone's dictionary so you can save all that "spokesman for black america schit you spit at me.....I have always been the spokesman for my dammy, do not want to be one for anyone else and do not want to hire one for myself any time soon.....the bottom line is...no matter what I express on the issue(s).....I am neutral on it politically, socially and otherwise.....and by the way, no gay black dude has ever come at me and said"Kevin I understand your plight as a heterosxual black male", so why in the hell should I be so concerned about his on the BASIS he is a homosexual black male? Puleeeze..........
quote:
If you are speaking only for yourself, then what, pray tell, are you doing in this thread, posting all of these messages?? Just letting us know how much you don't care about the subject matter we are discussing??



I am just giving my take on the issue just like everyone else has. I did not know I actually had to give a damn as a prerequisite to posting in this thread......my bad.

I guess you have taken what I said and given them YOUR interpretation of what I meant. Well, I am a literal type of guy....implying and insinuating is a coward azz trait in my opinion. If I do not give a damn about something, I use those exact terms to express my sentiments. Leaving things open to broad interpretation makes you waste your life clearing up trivial issues for those PRETENDING not to understand.

For the sake of clarification, we'll just say that I am more un-involved with their(gay rights types)agenda than it being I do not give a damn about their agenda how's that?....even though I admit they both could be viewed by some as one in the same.....
quote:
by Kevin41
.....and by the way, no gay black dude has ever come at me and said"Kevin I understand your plight as a heterosxual black male", so why in the hell should I be so concerned about his on the BASIS he is a homosexual black male? Puleeeze..........


Great point! I co-sign Kevin41.

Ricardo.....first of all, you're the one putting words in MY mouth. And I guess it was ok when you rebutted my comments, huh selfish? The last time I checked this was supposed to be a black site and at least I fit the description.

I wonder how long an admitted black person would be permitted to post on a white supremacist site. And don't use that lame assumption that blacks must be azz wipes taking the 'high road' while ignoring the conduct of ignorant acting whites... bs

If you really cared about blacks so much you'd go reform those white supremacists instead of passing off demons at a black site.

So many people claiming to be straight can't stop talking about poooor, oppressed 'gays' because they know full well they are practicing homosexuality themselves and are looking out for their own selfish interests. So they go around pretending to be straight, pro homo sympathizers...exaggerating schit, and looking for all sorts of manipulative, cunning excuses to bring up the topic and see who falls for the bait.
The folly of putting labels on sexuality
Straight, gay or bisexual attraction is far too nuanced and subjective to withstand crude statistical analysis.
By Meghan Daum
Meghan Daum is an essayist and novelist living in Los Angeles.

July 19, 2005

For a few moments two weeks ago, everything seemed exhilaratingly clear. On July 5, the New York Times published an article titled "Gay, Straight, or Lying? Bisexuality Revisited."

The article reported on the findings of a study in which psychologists from Northwestern University and Toronto's Center for Addiction and Mental Health observed arousal responses in 100 men who identified themselves as either straight, gay or bisexual.

The study was conducted by hooking electrodes up to these men and monitoring their responses as they watched various forms of pornography.

And the result: Straight men liked straight porn and the gay men liked gay porn. As for the self-professed bisexual men, a third liked straight porn and two-thirds liked gay porn. None of them responded to both. In other words, the research suggested, male bisexuality, like Bigfoot, the Easter Bunny and possibly the real estate bubble, is a myth.

The story, which went out over the wires that day and remained at the top of the New York Times' "most e-mailed stories" list for several days after that, had the qualities of that most delicious form of news, which is to say the kind of news that lends credibility to preexisting biases and unstated politically incorrect views. On behalf of the millions of straight, single women for whom dating can mean navigating the murky waters of men who purport to be straight but whose interests and behavior sometimes suggest otherwise, I'll admit my initial response was a resounding "duh!"

The fact that the article also acknowledged that bisexuality may actually be the norm in women (although just 1.5% of women identify themselves as such) was even further validation of the double standard that so many women (and men, when they have occasion to think about it) share.

The crux of the double standard is this: Bisexual curiosity is seen as perfectly natural and normal in women and is even (largely by virtue of its appeal to men) an asset in attracting a mate. After all, tons of independent movies are made on the subject, some of which aren't even kept hidden at the video store. And what about all those teenage girls who now use the lesbian kiss as a way of exciting teenage boys? Back in my day, we relied on Love's Baby Soft perfume (talk about old technology).

But heterosexual men who admit that they also are attracted to other men are not so lucky. Instead of being thought of as open-minded or even trendy, these poor saps are viewed as merely self-deluding passengers on the slow (and late) train to gayness. If you don't believe me and all my girlfriends, it's right there in the New York Times. Or at least it was on July 5.

But then July 6 came, and with it the news that the study's lead author, Dr. J. Michael Bailey, is a controversial figure who has been accused of ethics violations in his research practices, has ties to at least one "neo-eugenics" outfit that studies and promotes "artificial natural selection," and despite describing himself as "very pro-gay," is a favorite son of gay "recovery" groups. The author of a much-criticized book about transsexuals, Bailey also is associated with the notion of homosexuality being an "evolutionary mistake."

In fairness, I read an interview with Bailey that mounted a fairly cogent defense of the "mistake" concept. He asserts that in evolutionary terms, any behaviors that do not directly propagate an individual's genes "” many of which are quite positive, like giving large sums of money to the poor "” could be considered a "mistake" (perhaps "aberration" would have set off fewer alarm bells). So the sins of omission committed by the New York Times were soon made up for in cyberspace. Countless blogs decried the study, and the online magazine Nerve.com responded by speedily putting together a bisexuality issue featuring an essay from a bisexual man, a bisexuality timeline from Zeus to Alexander the Great to Mischa Barton's character on "The O.C.," as well as a full-force attack on the New York Times article. There's even a reader poll asking, "Where do you fall on the spectrum?"

Still, the question for which there are still no satisfying answers has to do with the degree of comfort we take in labeling things, especially things as amorphous and taboo-prone as sexuality.

Using a sample roughly the size of Bailey's, I asked a bunch of my friends "” male and female, gay and straight "” if they thought bisexuality truly existed. Most of them (myself included) agreed with Alfred Kinsey that we all fall somewhere on the scale between entirely heterosexual and entirely homosexual. Most of us also agreed that sexual attraction is far too nuanced and subjective to withstand the kind of crude statistical analysis Bailey's study seems to put forth.

Oh, and most of us also thought that men who say that they are bisexual are pretty much kidding themselves.

Why this attitude? Who knows, but it would be interesting if someone studied it, particularly someone whose research methods are a little more comprehensive than Bailey's or mine. Until then, bloggers, start your engines.
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin41:
Which to me is saying that sexuality should not be the basis for rights....because it is still a matter of choice....what one is attracted to.....no some non-negotiable construct such as race......


So why do so many heterosexuals try to claim heterosexuality as the basis for their rights?

Their right to marry, for example.
quote:
Originally posted by ricardomath:
So why do so many heterosexuals try to claim heterosexuality as the basis for their rights?

Their right to marry, for example.


What a ridiculous question! And what is the point? Any fool should know a real marriage is between a man and a woman. Not a man and a child, or a man and a toaster or two men for that matter. The real question is what should qualify two men to marry each other any more than a man and his grandma or mother, is that ok too?

He can't get enough of arguing a point for homosexuality in an attempt to get black folk as confused as he is...he is probably a member of the Klan. With all the real suffering in the world besides racism, such as poverty, and the abuse of children, women and the elderly, he intrudes on a black interest site to fanaticize over the ˜right' of homosexuals to desecrate the secrecy of marriage. Is it any wonder way we blacks can barely be heard let alone receive justice, all the whites pretending to care about our plight are really only interested in advocating homosexuality.

bang
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:

Ricardo.....first of all, you're the one putting words in MY mouth.


I wasn't aware that quoting from your posts was "putting words in your mouth". Those are the exact words that came out of your mouth, or at least out of your fingers on the keyboard.

quote:
And I guess it was ok when you rebutted my comments, huh selfish?


Um...yes, it's OK for me to rebut your words. I wish that you would get in the practice of quoting my words and rebutting them, instead of making up straw men to knock down, and claiming that I said whatever silly strawman that you wish to try to knock down.

quote:
The last time I checked this was supposed to be a black site and at least I fit the description.


Last time that I checked, the site administrator was MBM, not some new poster named Shemika. Shemika doesn't determine who can and can't post here. That determination is made by MBM.

BTW, you should note that MBM has not declared this a HETEROSEXUAL.BLACK.COMMUNITY.

The banner says INTELLIGENT.BLACK.COMMUNITY.

quote:
I wonder how long an admitted black person would be permitted to post on a white supremacist site.


Not very long in general, I suppose. But they might make an exception for Lofton. I'm not sure what the relevance of this statement is, however. How does it relate to anything that we have been discussing? (BTW, if you don't flaunt your race, they might let you post for quite some time. I imagine that you and them would find quite alot of common ground on homophobia.)

quote:
And don't use that lame assumption that blacks must be azz wipes taking the 'high road' while ignoring the conduct of ignorant acting whites... bs


And don't use that lame assumption that I'm going to be your ass-wipe, taking the high road with ifnorant acting folks like you.

quote:
If you really cared about blacks so much you'd go reform those white supremacists instead of passing off demons at a black site.


Why should I post at white supremicist sites? You seem to have more in common with them politically than I do, as near as I can tell from your comments.

quote:
So many people claiming to be straight can't stop talking about poooor, oppressed 'gays' because they know full well they are practicing homosexuality themselves and are looking out for their own selfish interests. So they go around pretending to be straight, pro homo sympathizers...exaggerating schit, and looking for all sorts of manipulative, cunning excuses to bring up the topic and see who falls for the bait.


lol lol lol

The old "You must be gay" attack. Too funny! Why do homophobic bigots always assume that they can intimidate people into silence by insinuating or outright calling them "gay"?

Sorry, that bullshi!t won't fly here. bs
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:

he is probably a member of the Klan.


You are an idiot. bs Now, anybody who disagrees with you is a KKK member?

quote:
he intrudes on a black interest site


In what way am I "intruding"?

Just because some new poster who comes here doesn't like me and imagines that she's running the place? Now, suddenly I'm intruding? bs
quote:
undermine racism against blacks with a pointless diversion.
Frenchy


Ricardomath,

I think your issues are very important. However sometimes I feel like they are inappropriate (which I accept as my opinion). What I think the underlying concern here is the amount of posts about gays. I think all the gay posts dilute the afrocentrism.

I'll admit that I feel like this wouldn't be an issue with some if you weren't white. Not fair.
Well, Ricardo, I DON'T agree that your intrusions about practicing homosexuality are important. I have no interest in paralleling someone's fixation with misusing their anatomies to the cause against racism, child abuse and the economic oppression of African nations, for example. We can barely get around to those issues thanks to your CRAP. It's amazing how much energy white folk have to sit around dreaming up nonsense labels to try and intimidate people with and to lend credibility to their vices. If you wish to refer to my having respect for my gender identity and the fact God created a woman to be with a man as being a "homophobe", knock yourself out (literally). Your stupid labels don't intimidate me, and I am not ashamed to be real instead of playing up to that nonsense to appease you or anyone else. When people really CARE they are always truthful! And unfortunately sometimes the truth hurts, but lies are fatal.
Shemika,

I think you misunderstand Ricardo's agenda. Discrimination against gays is something he is seriously passionate about. As you will find that many of the old schoolers have at least one issue that they major in (are passionate about). His issues aren't intended to divert anything.

I'm a self-proclaimed homophobe. I do so because I like being honest with myself. Still, I find it important to respect gays, and people who defend gays. I respect Ricardo, and still disagree with the parallels of racism and sexual orientation discrimination. I disagree with how we can compare years of oppression and public lynchings with sexual orientation discrimination. Yet and still I respect Ricardo and people like him. Because if he or anyone else who has compassion for humanity doesn't speak out on the ills against homosexuals, who will?
quote:
Originally posted by shemika:

Well, Ricardo, I DON'T agree that your intrusions about practicing homosexuality are important.


Tough.

quote:
We can barely get around to those issues thanks to your CRAP.


Now you are sounding like Lofton, claiming time and again that former US Congressman Merv Dymally is an illegal immigrant. Yet always unable to back up his claims. Quick with the accusations, but always short on facts.

quote:
When people really CARE they are always truthful! And unfortunately sometimes the truth hurts, but lies are fatal.


OK, so lets be truthful. Let's look at the facts.

You have been a member of this forum since May 23, 2005. That's less than two months. You have a total of 40 posts here.

I have been a member of this forum since May 21, 2003. That's more than two years. I have a total of 2035 posts here.

Looking over your 40 posts, 17 of them are gay related. That's 42.5% of your posts since you joined on May 23.

Looking over my posts from that same perion (since you joined on May 23), I have a total of 107 posts, of which 20 are gay related. That's 18.7% of my posts since you joined.

I agree that you have had difficulty posting about anything other than gay related issues, but the facts would appear to show that this results from your own personal obsession with the topic, and has absolutely nothing to do with me. You aparently came here with an anti-gay chip on your shoulder, determined to split the Black community along sexual orientation lines, determined to do exactly what the powers that be in this country want you to do, help them divide and rule. You try to build yourself up by tearing other black people down. And you try to hide your agenda by attacking me for being white. Claiming that I'm in the KKK. But I'm not the cause of your obsession.

No, 18.7% of my posts are not responsible for 42.5% of your posts. Take responsibility for that which you post about.

There is exactly one gay related thread, out of a total of 50 threads, on the front page of the ISSUES & POLITICS. You claim that that one thread is keeping you from responding to the other 49 threads (not to mention thousands of other threads on older pages).

Sorry, but I'm not responsible for what you do and don't post about. Take responsibility for your own actions.

I started 7 of the 50 threads threads that appear on the first page. Only one has anything to do with gays. Is it a coincidence that you haven't posted to any of the other 6 threads that I have on the first page? You don't feel compelled to post to my other threads. You post to this thread only because you are obsessed with the topic.

quote:
the cause against racism, child abuse and the economic oppression of African nations, for example. We can barely get around to those issues thanks to your CRAP.


You claim that I am preventing you from posting about racism? How many threads have you started about racism? Answer: None.

You claim that I am preventing you from posting on the issue of child abuse? How many threads have you started about child abuse? Answer: None.

You claim that I am preventing you from posting on the issue of the economic oppression of African Nations? How many threads have you started about the economic oppression of African Nations? Answer: None.

In fact, how many threads do you have visible on the first page of the ISSUES & POLITICS forum? Answer: None.

OK, time for a change of tone. Smile

I really don't want to continue this bickering with you. I realize that you are new here. My preference would be for you to begin starting threads about issues that you are interested in, instead of complaining about what other people choose to post about. You might even find that we will agree on something on occaision.

Just start a thread. Pick your favorite topic. Don't worry about whether anybody else is interested in it. If nobody replies, your thread will quickly fall off of the first page, and you can start another one. (In fact, no need to wait. There's nothing wrong with having multiple threads on the first page.) If people do reply, it will keep getting bumped to the top, just as this thread does every time that you or I post to it. Instead of keeping this thread alive, why not simply start your own?

Just jump right in. The water's fine! tfro

I start alot of threads about Latin America, for example, especially Colombia. I start threads about militarism and war. I start goofy threads about oddball stories or websites that I run into on the internet. Now, sometimes people respond, but other times those who are interested read the post silently, and those who aren't don't. Either way, unless people actively keep it alive by posting to it, it quickly falls off of the first page.

You haven't asked for my advice, but here it is anyway: Start some threads on topics that interest you, post to other threads that interest you, and ignore threads that don't interest you. You'll find the forum alot more enjoyable that way.

Oh, yeah...almost forgot...

Welcome to AA.org, Shemika!

wel

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