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The way I see it is that black women (and to a lessor extent some black men) are frusterated with interracial dating because they perceive it to be a rejection of blackness. So, when some black women who see a black man with a white woman get offended, I would argue the are doing it based upon the general concept of rejection, not the individual concept of 'he is rejecting me'.

So the nature of the rejection of interracial dating is the acceptance of the concept of racial solidarity.

Here is where I see a problem however. Black women in general would argue the concept of free choice in relationships. For example, if I began to argue that it was important for women and men to be placed together by their parents and be married regardless as to if they loved, liked or thought the other was attractive and that this was simply the way it should be done to preserve culture, most black women would fight against this arugment.

My question then becomes this, why is the argument against interracial dating due to the concept of racial solidarity acceptable by many, but the concept of arranged marriage to maintain cultural solidarity rejected? At the core of each is the concept of free choice, and the ability to be with whom one wants free from social barriers or critiques.
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quote:
Originally posted by urbansun:
The way I see it is that black women (and to a lessor extent some black men) are frusterated with interracial dating because they perceive it to be a rejection of blackness. So, when some black women who see a black man with a white woman get offended, I would argue the are doing it based upon the general concept of rejection, not the individual concept of 'he is rejecting me'.

So the nature of the rejection of interracial dating is the acceptance of the concept of racial solidarity.



What makes you think this, Urbansun? On the contrary, I think most black women (offline, at least) who are opposed to interracial dating are opposed to it precisely because they see the most common permutation of it -- black man/white woman -- as being a direct rejection of them. Many black women take it personally when they see a black man with a white woman. It's seen as a statement that they are not pretty enough, or feminine enough, for that man. We don't have 18 million Angela Davises running around lamenting the sad state of black solidarity when they see a black man with a white woman. To accept what you believe, you'd have to believe that somehow black women are more interested in black solidarity, than black men.

If "black solidarity" were the reason, I'm sure you would see that written about in all of the endless writing on the subject we see in Essence magazine and the like.
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I think most black women (offline, at least) who are opposed to interracial dating are opposed to it precisely because they see the most common permutation of it -- black man/white woman -- as being a direct rejection of them. Many black women take it personally when they see a black man with a white woman. It's seen as a statement that they are not pretty enough, or feminine enough, for that man.

I agree with your assessment Vox, although it has never made any rational sense to me. Personalizing and internalizing the abstract and indirect rejection by another person isn't logical. I call it abstract because for this personalized rejection to makes sense there are too many assumptions being made...

a) That the Black woman in question would even want that Black man if he were single.

b) That the Black man in question would be with her, and not with some other Black woman.

c) That the Black man in question refuses to date Black women... which negates the first two.

I don't know... maybe it's just confusing to me because I'm a man (it seems to make sense to many of the Sisters here). For men, rejection is a part of everyday life. Particularly when it comes to dating, being the traditional initiator means we get direct and clear cut rejection all the time. Other times we just get toyed with, meaning "I'm not interested, but I don't want you to know it yet". We figure out real fast not to carry that rejection around with us, because it would destroy our self esteem and take us out of the game entirely.

Consequently, my head starts to spin when I hear women take a highly abstract rejection built from a "shoulda, coulda, woulda" hypothetical scenario and make it all about them. That, to me... is just bizarre.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I think most black women (offline, at least) who are opposed to interracial dating are opposed to it precisely because they see the most common permutation of it -- black man/white woman -- as being a direct rejection of them. Many black women take it personally when they see a black man with a white woman. It's seen as a statement that they are not pretty enough, or feminine enough, for that man.

I agree with your assessment Vox, although it has never made any rational sense to me. Personalizing and internalizing the abstract and indirect rejection by another person isn't logical. I call it abstract because for this personalized rejection to makes sense there are too many assumptions being made...

a) That the Black woman in question would even want that Black man if he were single.

b) That the Black man in question would be with her, and not with some other Black woman.

c) That the Black man in question refuses to date Black women... which negates the first two.

I don't know... maybe it's just confusing to me because I'm a man (it seems to make sense to many of the Sisters here). For men, rejection is a part of everyday life. Particularly when it comes to dating, being the traditional initiator means we get direct and clear cut rejection all the time. Other times we just get toyed with, meaning "I'm not interested, but I don't want you to know it yet". We figure out real fast not to carry that rejection around with us, because it would destroy our self esteem and take us out of the game entirely.

Consequently, my head starts to spin when I hear women take a highly abstract rejection built from a "shoulda, coulda, woulda" hypothetical scenario and make it all about them. That, to me... is just bizarre.

yeah

You hit the nail on the head, Black Viking. I've realized that no matter what woman that I date and/or eventually marry, not everybody will like who she is. So in other words, she has to compliment in every way possible (i.e. be a perfect fit with you and vice versa), and hopefully not anybody else. Bottom line is, you have to walk down that aisle and say "I do" in front of both families, the pastor and God; not your buddies, not her girlfriends, and not your parents--you have to do it.

And regardless what she looks like, you're not gonna please anybody with your choice, so you might as well please yourself. No matter who you pick as your wife, someone won't like your choice.

For example, if she's dark-skinned, some will get upset that she's too dark for you. Others will say, "Are you trying to be Alex Haley now? Getting back to your Roots?" If she's light-skinned, some folks will say, "Why you had to pick a light-skinned girl? All the white girls were taken?"

If she's not from the US or a non-black woman of color, some will say "Why you picked her? You can't handle an AMERICAN woman that has intelligence, indoor plumbing and electricity?"

Your girl can be on crutches or in a wheelchair, and there will be some random jackass that'll hate on her for some abstract reason: "That damn chick thinks she too cute to stand up and walk like everybody else."


You can't please everybody all the time. This is one of the few choices in life where you have the final decision. Whoever you choose, you have to please yourself before anyone else, in this particular situation.
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quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
I agree with your assessment Vox, although it has never made any rational sense to me. Personalizing and internalizing the abstract and indirect rejection by another person isn't logical. I call it abstract because for this personalized rejection to makes sense there are too many assumptions being made...


I know I shouldn't, but I just gotta ask ... just how many "rational" women do you know?? 19 Eek Razz

In whole numbers, please! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
I know I shouldn't, but I just gotta ask ... just how many "rational" women do you know?? 19 Eek Razz

In whole numbers, please! Big Grin

That's a very good point Ebony... I'm going to have to think real hard about that one. 19


Well ... there's me, of course! girl So you can start counting at 2!! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by Huey:
And regardless what she looks like, you're not gonna please anybody with your choice, so you might as well please yourself. No matter who you pick as your wife, someone won't like your choice.

For example, if she's dark-skinned, some will get upset that she's too dark for you. Others will say, "Are you trying to be Alex Haley now? Getting back to your Roots?" If she's light-skinned, some folks will say, "Why you had to pick a light-skinned girl? All the white girls were taken?"

If she's not from the US or a non-black woman of color, some will say "Why you picked her? You can't handle an AMERICAN woman that has intelligence, indoor plumbing and electricity?"

This is why I don't spend any time discussing or debating my personal dating preferences... because I know that ultimately it doesn't matter to anyone but me, since I'm the only one that has to live with the results. However, I'm (usually) willing to discuss dating trends, strategies, and attitudes... as well as their real or perceived impact on people and society in general.

quote:
Your girl can be on crutches or in a wheelchair, and there will be some random jackass that'll hate on her for some abstract reason: "That damn chick thinks she too cute to stand up and walk like everybody else."

That gave me a chuckle... laugh

My girlfriend in college had cerebral palsey and was (mostly) confined to a wheelchair. Everyone thought I was crazy or doing some sort of charity thing. But actually, I dated her because...

* She was smokin' hot, despite being in a wheelchair.

* She was fun, funny, and she laughed at my jokes.

* She had an incredibly positive attitude about life.

At 19 years old.... all of that was more than enough for me. Big Grin
quote:
What makes you think this, Urbansun? On the contrary, I think most black women (offline, at least) who are opposed to interracial dating are opposed to it precisely because they see the most common permutation of it -- black man/white woman -- as being a direct rejection of them. Many black women take it personally when they see a black man with a white woman. It's seen as a statement that they are not pretty enough, or feminine enough, for that man. We don't have 18 million Angela Davises running around lamenting the sad state of black solidarity when they see a black man with a white woman. To accept what you believe, you'd have to believe that somehow black women are more interested in black solidarity, than black men.

If "black solidarity" were the reason, I'm sure you would see that written about in all of the endless writing on the subject we see in Essence magazine and the like.


Good post Vox.

It is my hope that it would be an individualized sense of rejection because this weakens the critique of interracial dating in exactly the way Viking has said. To take an abstract of he is with white, and reason that that is a direct rejection of me as an individual is very troublesome from a psychological standpoint.

Those three questions posed by Viking:

"a) That the Black woman in question would even want that Black man if he were single.

b) That the Black man in question would be with her, and not with some other Black woman.

c) That the Black man in question refuses to date Black women... which negates the first two."

Then must be asked.


The reason that I advanced my theory is because the 'sell out' label either in a harsher or softer form often follows the discussion of I/R dating at least in my experience in dialoguing with people on it.

Potentially it is a combination of both, there is the more global sense of collective rejection, and the sense of individual rejection based upon the perception that 'I' as a black woman am not good enough for that black man.

One of the weaknesses that I see with the individualized approach is that women do get rejected all the time. For example, does a fat ugly woman take it personal when a black man is with a black woman who is fit and attractive? If not then this would seem to challenge to a degree the individualized sense of rejection of seeing a black man with a white woman. Wouldn't it?
urbansun,

Let me preface by first saying that your individual choices in love are your own.

So nothing I'm about to say should be construed as judgemental.

(Honest) Question(s):

Given that your choice is a function of desire - something essentially non-rational - why is it that you apparently seek to rationalize it?

I.e., if you can analyze the negative reaction of others to interracial dating as irrational ... then why do you even care what others think? Do you desire to normalize your choice?

I ask this in part because there are many ways in which I personally fall outside of what is widely considered normative for black people.

For example, I am non-Christian.

But, urbansun, I believe that you perhaps of all people might find an attempt to normalize my own religious beliefs problematic.

After all, I can essentially say your own religious choices are, at base, irrational - appealing in the end to faith.

But I seem to recall you defending it on the grounds of a faith normed by a community of fellow believers and requiring no further ultimate justification. A community moreover that has no compunction at all about being exclusive about their faith, aggressively attempting to convert others, and marginalizing all that do not agree.

I would think religion is no more or less personal than choice of marriage partner. Moreover, one can at least advance rational arguments.
I had an epiphany last night (maybe)...

Is it possible that unconscious evaluation of the color caste system (that places the darkest skinned women at the lowest status) causes women who fit that mold to automatically give up on any man that does not strictly date such women?

As in, any competition at all is given up as an automatic win for the higher status woman... so the dark-skinned Black woman just throws in the towel and continues searching for a man who deals only with dark-skinned Black women? Perhaps even if it's a White man?

Honest question... This concept is (for me) about 3 hours old. Smile
quote:
Originally posted by urbansun:

One of the weaknesses that I see with the individualized approach is that women do get rejected all the time. For example, does a fat ugly woman take it personal when a black man is with a black woman who is fit and attractive? If not then this would seem to challenge to a degree the individualized sense of rejection of seeing a black man with a white woman. Wouldn't it?


I guess all of that depends on how much success the woman in question has with dating. I have found that the more men a woman is able to get with, the less she seems to care about interracial dating. And ditto the bigger women. Big women who get a lot of attention from men seem less concerned about how the slim women are doing. All of this, obviously, is based on my observations.

I think there is a global sense of rejection as well as an individualized sense as well. It's a combination. It's like, "I belong to a class of women that you don't find desirable enough. You reject me/us."

And to piggyback on what HB said, it basically is what it is. I do believe there's a "logic" to it, even if that logic isn't all that rationally grounded. For example, if you're a black woman who's regarded generally as ugly, in a world where other black women are not, then to a certain extent, you probably are't as angry at the men, because you believe that the men aren't supposed to be attracted to you, because you're seen as unattractive. But with IR dating, when it's seen as he ultimate insult, it's because you figure a black man is "supposed" to like blck women. It also may have a bit to do with the perception that the more desirable the black man, the more likely he is to date white women.

I also think it rubs up against deep-seated trouble with societal perceptions of beauty. A lot of black women seem to spend a good amount of effort trying to avoid feelings of societally-imposed inferiority in terms of their femininity. The average person who, living a life of such avoidance, runs into what they read as a clear statement of that inferiority, lashes out and feels upset. That may be a part of what's going on... maybe not, but I offer it for what it's worth.

None of this is to say, by the way, that I have a problem with IR relationships.
quote:
Originally posted by OhBlackButterfly:

My advice: Don't try to understand it, because it isn't going to make sense to you when it doesn't even make sense to women. It's not explainable or excusable to keep falling in the same hole time after time after time. But, there is a reason for it. From what I see in my circles, and what has been "admitted", the women would rather have somebody than nobody at all. They can't STAND to be manless, they can't STAND to take a breather in between relationships, and they aren't satisfied with self or anything else until their official status is "I'm somebody's woman". This way of being does not allow for "smart shopping", therefore...they get what they paid for (in effort)....which is nothing. I've even said to them, "Well, what if Mr. Right comes along and you're all tied up with this wrong guy and miss your chance?" They're not trying to hear that passed the weekend. Come Monday, it's on....to whomever.~ Just long enough to get out and socialize and attach to another "maybe, but it's highly unlikely, but I'll settle". Over and over and over again.
As long as there is piggybacking going on, I Vox's last post made me wonder... Do women who have a man care/make comments about men who date inter racially?

Does it make a difference if the woman is married vs dating "her man" as to whether or not comments are made?

Do men make such commentary when they see interracial couples or is this just about women?
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
I think there is a global sense of rejection as well as an individualized sense as well. It's a combination. It's like, "I belong to a class of women that you don't find desirable enough. You reject me/us."


Well, first let me state that I really don't have whole lot to add to this discussion ... 'cause I don't care who any man dates ... as long as he isn't mine! Eek And if he's dating somebody other than me ... there'll be a problem in Houston, for sure!

But other than that, I really couldn't care less ... but, I, too, find the reaction of many of my sisters about this very Confused indeed!

I know several women who have this attitude ... a couple are my very best friends. And the answers I've always gotten from them about it are the same ones as have been given by Vox .. they range from "A Black man is just not supposed to date/marry White women" to "It's contaminating our race" to "Those are men that just can't deal with a real woman" to various questions about their mental state or moral character as a person.

The majority of the women I know tend to take it very personally, even if those men are not somebody that they themselves would date or marry! And I've always wondered how and why so many of these type women who would be so concerned about somebody else's man don't even know what their own man is up to and should probably be paying more attention to that! Eek But that's another thread! Big Grin

So, I don't see the rationality of it either ... but, several of these theories presented here ring true from the people that I know that feel this way.

But, now, I have a question now ... would any of you say this attitude flips itself when it comes to the way men may feel about seeing an I/R couple when they walk down the street? Especially for men that date Black women exclusively ... is there a lot of anger/ill-will towards an I/R couple? And for the same or other reasons, perhaps? Confused
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Do men make such commentary when they see interracial couples or is this just about women?

munch Inquiring minds wanna know!



Speaking for myself, I neither make commentary nor do I have ill thoughts. I do value both diversity and tolerance for the life choices of other people.

However, I cannot say that the topic does not make me uncomfortable on some level.

The source of that discomfort is due to a broader reflection (beyond individual choices) on the state of black solidarity.

To be completely honest, there's actually more social pressure for someone in my position to date interracially than not.

And it seems to me that on the whole I see more interracial couples (usually black male and white female) than I do even black couples. Especially amoung younger people. And this seems to be the case even at black events - although I haven't spent too much time in the churches.

In my first year in Kentucky, I was taken completely off guard when it got around that a white co-worker wondered, "Why it was that black men do not take care of their children?" Being the "only one" on the job, that wasn't a comfortable situation. But after being here awhile, I've seen that a lot of brothas who have been irresponsible with black women are now being irresponsible with white women as well.

Yes. I know that being sexually irresponsible is a problem in and of itself ... and I also know that these men don't reflect all men who date interracially. But seeing white women raising "black" children alone does put the issue in bold relief as it relates to possible future consequences.

Tolerance for individuals is one thing. But what I find very disquieting is the prospect of the life choices of some possibly becoming the norm for many (This, by the way, is not a consideration that arises for homosexuality ... especially if sexual orientation is determined genetically and never effects more than a small percentage of the population).

I will admit that the possibility might be unlikely.

But can anyone put forth an argument that interracial relationships * becoming the norm * would be to the benefit of black America on the whole? Or even benign on the whole?

Note that this question is a hypothetical.

One to which I don't really know the answer.

Would it have consequences for black oppression or to how we respond collectively to that oppression if all we have in common is varying shades of tan skin?

Would it have consequences for the culture?

It does not seem to me to be essentially irrational for people (male or female) to be concerned. And for reasons beyond the notion of feeling individually rejected.

* Is it irrational (from the stand point of collective self-interest) to expect that it ought not be the norm? *

After all, we can talk about tolerance for a lot of things (people dropping out of school, voting for George W. Bush, doing drugs, not recycling, wearing fur, driving fuel in-efficient cars, overeating, smoking, etc). These are individual choices.

But at some point, don't you have to consider the potential impact of a lot of people making the same choice?

Honest response.
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quote:
Originally posted by ATPWordPro:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Well ... there's me, of course! girl

Woah... woah... woah! Let's not get ahead of ourselves now... Razz Wink

quote:
So you can start counting at 2!! Big Grin

Ok, I give... who's the other one supposed to be? Confused

Quit playin' Black Viking, you know who the other one is. 1 girl

hat...... Wink

Actually, that whole exchange was tounge-in-cheek. I know who Ebony was referring to, and I was just teasing her out of habit. Cool

As I've thought about it more though, I'm beginning realize just how right she is. There are actually plenty of logical and rational women out there. I think mistake that I (and many other people) make when we start discussing this dating/mating game, is we try to assign reason to a social function that is inherently irrational. Analyzing the social phenomenon of interpersonal relationships logically and rationally is doomed to failure... because people don't make these choices using logic or reason. We all (both men and women) make relationship choices instictively, based on what our "gut" tells us. Does it feel right... or wrong?

I'm as guilty of this as anyone. I have an extremely analytical mind. It's my greatest strength, but it easily becomes my greatest weakness. Particularly when I'm over-analyzing something that defies analyzation... because it leads to nothing but endless mental masturbation.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
I had an epiphany last night (maybe)...

Is it possible that unconscious evaluation of the color caste system (that places the darkest skinned women at the lowest status) causes women who fit that mold to automatically give up on any man that does not strictly date such women?

As in, any competition at all is given up as an automatic win for the higher status woman... so the dark-skinned Black woman just throws in the towel and continues searching for a man who deals only with dark-skinned Black women? Perhaps even if it's a White man?

Honest question... This concept is (for me) about 3 hours old. Smile



I have to agree with your assessment.

Being a dark skinned woman, continuously overlooked, i developed a pattern of ignoring or dismissing black men, that had a preference for lighter skin.

Seeing a black man, with a white woman........is no different to me. I could careless..........because he is someone that i would not have dated.

(I could never understand their preferences, because i didnt have a preference for the hue of a black mans skin. If he was black....that was good enough.)



My job, was to find a black man.....that dated black women exclusively, and one that loved the hue of my skin.

But it wasnt easy, it was hurtful.....and sometimes demeaning.


What i've noticed is that..... women younger than myself, have decided 'not' to wait for a black man...............and to be truthful, i really dont want 'anyone' to go through what i've dealt with.



So trust.....the days of caring about who a black man is with, is coming to an end.

I for one, am happy.
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
As I've thought about it more though, I'm beginning realize just how right she is. There are actually plenty of logical and rational women out there. I think mistake that I (and many other people) make when we start discussing this dating/mating game, is we try to assign reason to a social function that is inherently irrational. Analyzing the social phenomenon of interpersonal relationships logically and rationally is doomed to failure... because people don't make these choices using logic or reason. We all (both men and women) make relationship choices instictively, based on what our "gut" tells us. Does it feel right... or wrong?


Ummmmm .... I'm having a little trouble with this, BV, because you're actually saying two different things! 19

On the one hand you say that this dating/mating thing is "inherently irrational" (which I don't necessarily agree with) but on the other, you're saying that "people don't make these decisions using logic and reason" (which I think is more accurately true)!

There IS rhyme and reason to the function of dating ... but it is this *irrationality* that is applied to it that makes it more difficult than it really needs to be.

Being disgusted with somebody you don't even know for a situation or background you have no information on because they are dating somebody that you don't agree with just doesn't make any sense to me! It's about as irrational as you can get. This is also true for dating someone yourself who you have certain expectations of without knowing very much about them or whether they are capable of what you are expecting them to do!

However, both of these things can be dealt with in a reasonable and logical manner if a little reality is applied to the situation. And the lack of that concept, I think, is placed solely on the individual, so their potential lack of it is not something that places a burden on the concept of dating/mating ... but in the personal concept of the individual themselves!

So, while I agree that people tend to approach dating in an irrational or illogical manner, I don't think that the concept of dating itself is what is flawed! Eek There is a way to manuver through it in a way that does not cause even half of the confusion and drama of what it is today. It's just that most people don't take that "rational" or "logic" approach.

So perhaps you should count again! Eek Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
As I've thought about it more though, I'm beginning realize just how right she is. There are actually plenty of logical and rational women out there. I think mistake that I (and many other people) make when we start discussing this dating/mating game, is we try to assign reason to a social function that is inherently irrational. Analyzing the social phenomenon of interpersonal relationships logically and rationally is doomed to failure... because people don't make these choices using logic or reason. We all (both men and women) make relationship choices instictively, based on what our "gut" tells us. Does it feel right... or wrong?


Ummmmm .... I'm having a little trouble with this, BV, because you're actually saying two different things! 19

On the one hand you say that this dating/mating thing is "inherently irrational" (which I don't necessarily agree with) but on the other, you're saying that "people don't make these decisions using logic and reason" (which I think is more accurately true)!

You're right... I was sorta saying two different things, and I was kinda babbeling... Red Face

I'll probably do more of that so I appologize in advance. Big Grin

Basically what I was trying to say was that there are plenty of perfectly rational and logical people out there that loose all capacity for reason and logic as soon as they attempt to apply that reason and logic to interpersonal relationships.

quote:
Being disgusted with somebody you don't even know for a situation or background you have no information on because they are dating somebody that you don't agree with just doesn't make any sense to me! It's about as irrational as you can get. This is also true for dating someone yourself who you have certain expectations of without knowing very much about them or whether they are capable of what you are expecting them to do!

Agreed.

quote:
However, both of these things can be dealt with in a reasonable and logical manner if a little reality is applied to the situation. And the lack of that concept, I think, is placed solely on the individual, so their potential lack of it is not something that places a burden on the concept of dating/mating ... but in the personal concept of the individual themselves!

I'm not sure what you mean here. I didn't mean to imply that the concept of dating/mating was flawed... only that people don't use reason or logic to navigate that arena.

Such as, if you ask any man or woman what attributes they like/prefer/require in the opposite sex... most people won't tell you the truth (ime). Not because they're being intentionally deceptive, but just because they actually don't know or understand themselves that well. And if they honestly do know... even money says they'd be very hard pressed to tell you why.

For example... I'm a drop-dead-sucker for women who wear glasses. The style is irrelevant as long as they're actual prescription glasses (shades don't count). It's a major hot button for me... hence my general predilection for more mature women and/or studious book worms. As far back as I can remember it's been true and constant (I've never in my life dated a woman who didn't wear glasses), yet I was 24 years old before I recognized this preference. And to this day I still couldn't tell you why. However, I do know that a plain or even unattractive woman can become stunning to me when she puts on a pair of glasses.

Where is the logic or reason in that? Confused

And how different is that from people who prefer dark-skinned or light-skinned? Naturals or perms? Tall or short? Big and buff or round and soft? Hairy or hairless?

You get my point... Smile

quote:
So, while I agree that people tend to approach dating in an irrational or illogical manner, I don't think that the concept of dating itself is what is flawed! Eek There is a way to manuver through it in a way that does not cause even half of the confusion and drama of what it is today. It's just that most people don't take that "rational" or "logic" approach.

So what (I think) I'm saying is people don't because they can't.

And what (I think) your saying is that people can but choose not to.

quote:
So perhaps you should count again! Eek Big Grin

But... but.... I'm out of fingers! Eek lol
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
So what (I think) I'm saying is people don't because they can't.

And what (I think) your saying is that people can but choose not to.


Okay ... yes, I think this is correct ... but, I would have to say that I agree more with your assessment. In fact, I would be in agreement with all that you have said!

And about that glasses thing .. maybe you should talk to somebody (a professional Eek) about that! Big Grin Razz

Thankfully, I am one of those women who does know what I like/want in a man ... and I also know why ... but maybe that is something I have learned along my way. I have never been one to settle for less, though, ... which is probably what has saved me from the kinds of relationships experiences that most of my girlfriends have gone through!

At the risk of getting myself into even more trouble than I already am on this board -- I think I was once accused of *hating women* - which would be ridiculous, because I am a woman too!! And nobody loves me like I do .. eyes .. but, I do enjoy letting the right kind of guy try! Razz

And perhaps I do tend to be a little hard on my sistas .. but it's not because I don't like them .. on the contrary, I think Black women are the strongest and most capable human beings that walk the face of this earth!!

Many of us are mothers and daughters and friends and lovers and workers and co-workers and teachers and nurturers and givers and caretakers and bookkeepers and breadwinners and cooks and playmates and taxi drivers and shoulders to lean on and guiders and leaders and volunteers ... if not all at the same time, then usually definitely within the same day! Eek So, I do not understand why when it comes to relationships, so many of us tend to throw our rationality of the mind away and let the unreasonability of the heart just take completely over! 19

I would expect men to be more prone to irrational behavior and making the same mistakes over and over and over again! No offense, but you guys tend to be kinda head-headed sometimes! Big Grin And I would expect illogical choices to be made more from you than from us!

But .. that is not the case. And, as OhBlackButterfly put it ... for many, a no-good man is better than no man at all! And I guess that is where I have my biggest problem/difference with my sistergirls. They are willing to stand on their own two feet in any other circumstance .. but in relationships will allow a man (or many men) to hurt them over and over and over again. Frown

And I just don't get it. Roll Eyes
quote:
Originally posted by qty226:
quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
I had an epiphany last night (maybe)...

Is it possible that unconscious evaluation of the color caste system (that places the darkest skinned women at the lowest status) causes women who fit that mold to automatically give up on any man that does not strictly date such women?

As in, any competition at all is given up as an automatic win for the higher status woman... so the dark-skinned Black woman just throws in the towel and continues searching for a man who deals only with dark-skinned Black women? Perhaps even if it's a White man?

Honest question... This concept is (for me) about 3 hours old. Smile



I have to agree with your assessment.

Being a dark skinned woman, continuously overlooked, i developed a pattern of ignoring or dismissing black men, that had a preference for lighter skin.

Seeing a black man, with a white woman........is no different to me. I could careless..........because he is someone that i would not have dated.

(I could never understand their preferences, because i didnt have a preference for the hue of a black mans skin. If he was black....that was good enough.)



My job, was to find a black man.....that dated black women exclusively, and one that loved the hue of my skin.

Thanks for responding Qty. I admit that you were one of a handful of women I was thinking about when that idea struck me. First... let me say that whomever you've found to spend your time with these days is a lucky man indeed. Smile

This line that I emboldened caught my attention in particular because it brings back to me another thought I had on the colorism issue, especially in how it relates to feelings of rejection. There seems to be a general perception among people that to have a romantic interest in someone that isn't identical to you is in some way a rejection of self (a.k.a. self loathing).

For example, when you say...

"My job, was to find a black man.....that dated black women exclusively, and one that loved the hue of my skin."

My first thought was that if he loves you... then he must love the hue of your skin. However, if he's a light-skinned Brother (hypothetically) does that somehow translate that he does not love the hue of his own skin? Or, if a dark-skinned Brother is in love with a light-skinned Sister (and consequently must love the hue of her skin) does that translate to a lack of love (or rejection of) his dark-skinned Sisters?

I'm thinking that this behavior is a natural safeguard we use to fight feelings of rejection (wheather real or abstract, or completely imagined)... to assign blame to the rejector. Wheather it is or not I'm not sure... but I'm deeply concerned that this behavior seems to reinforce our tendency to define ourselves (and each other) by the "White Standard", in the sense that all of our people are either "too Black" or "not Black enough".

PS. None of this is meant as a challenge to you. I know this is a sensative issue for all of us. For me, this convo is purely exploratory. Smile
Okay, this is off but ...

Black Viking, you mentioned the term "self loathing" and I've also heard "self hate" mentioned a lot on the board in regard to our people and ... thre's obviously something to this concept because it's talked about so much, but I honestly just can't relate! Confused

What I think I am understanding is that there are people who *hate* being Black. Is this right? Confused And would you say such people know of this behavior on some kind of conscious level ... or is it something that just manifests itself through actions in a subconscious way? Do you think a lot of people have this inside of them? Confused I think I understand that it might be some kind of remnant from slavery, yes?

I cannot perceive the concept of "self hate" on a racial level. I suppose it could be something like not liking some physical attribute and wanting to change it ... like one's weight or height or nose or something. But having a self-loathing about who you are is a whole other can of worms! Eek I can't even imagine what that would feel like.

Do you personally know such people? I don't think I do ... unless, I'm just not recognizing it because I do't understand the concept. 19

Anyway, sorry to bombard you like that. I guess I was really just ranting about it, but I'm really, really confused here. sck I think I want to believe that it's something that somebody just made up .. but, it's used and discussed too much not to have some kind of validity to it. So ... could you (or anybody) please explain?? flowers
quote:
Originally posted by Vox:
What makes you think this, Urbansun? On the contrary, I think most black women (offline, at least) who are opposed to interracial dating are opposed to it precisely because they see the most common permutation of it -- black man/white woman.


Which is so typical.
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quote:
Originally posted by Black Viking:
I had an epiphany last night (maybe)...

Is it possible that unconscious evaluation of the color caste system (that places the darkest skinned women at the lowest status) causes women who fit that mold to automatically give up on any man that does not strictly date such women?

As in, any competition at all is given up as an automatic win for the higher status woman... so the dark-skinned Black woman just throws in the towel and continues searching for a man who deals only with dark-skinned Black women? Perhaps even if it's a White man?

Honest question... This concept is (for me) about 3 hours old. Smile


Ureka!
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What men so conveniently forget (or don't realize because they don't live the lives of BLACK WOMEN), is that among all the women in this country, Black women are considered the least desirable. And the following statements explain why:

From the moment we are able to understand what is happening in our surroundings, and even before then, we are influenced by the cultures and societies in which we are born. In America, television advertisements, magazine ads, and other forms of media are very effective tools for reinforcing White cultural captial (e.g., customs, traditions, beliefs, and values), White superiority, and the adulation of White skin and other features that are unique to Europeans. And everyone is affected, even those in the international community are affected.

As African Americans, however, we have experienced the most brutal forms of this brand of assimiliation and mass influence. Over a period of 600 years, we were PERSONALLY instructed to love everything that is White and hate everything that is African and Black. The Black male, in particular, was instrcucted to never express any affection or have any kind of relationship whatsoever with the White female. Therefore - and this is just my personal theory - I believe of all the men in this country, the African American male is most likely to pursue interracial relationships, because of his personal relationship with America's history.

I also believe - and this is a very common theory - that Black men will subconsciously pursue relationships with non-Black women in order to get the admiration and respect that they don't get from the White male. To be seen with the White man's most prized possession (a White woman, preferrably the White woman with the lightest skin, the bluest eyes, and the blondest hair) is a way to instantly gain respect and to perhaps get "pay back" for his continuing oppression.
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I posted this in response to another thread about bridal magazines, but it's worth revisiting...


quote:

Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:

I'm not a woman, so I don't know how women think but - damn - you'd think that at some point a woman would know how to draw the line between their own self concept and how the media dictates what is an ideal female.



I don't believe that the absence of black brides in bridal magazines is a huge issue. We are not commonly groomed to believe in the princess fairytale or even to take marriage for granted as an automatic right of passage.

However, speaking to the self-image issue, we have to consider that ALL women of ALL races are constantly judged by their appearance. A man is judged as handsome or not, but this really has little bearing on the estimation of his worth as a human being.

Women around the world are constantly, and subtly bombarded with commercials, cosmetics, radioshow host comments, movies, magazines, billboards, etc. Even imagery which is ostensibly not about appearance reinforces a particular aesthetic as "normal" i.e., cereal, insurance, maxi pad, beer, bug spray, and mini-van commercials still feature (predominantly) a particular type of woman as the "normal" people doing "normal things". By default depicting anything non-white becomes "abnormal".

If one glances occasionally through websites which contain member "pages", men all around the world from India, to Morroco, to Quattar, to Kuwait, SouthAmerica, to Atlanta are seeking white females...IMHO, not because they're so much more desirable, but because they've been bombarded with Western imagery which exhalts white female flesh as the epitome of a good normal life.

I do understand your statements about the need to establish self esteem as separate from what the media dictates and I agree

But who is teaching our beautiful brown babies male and female how to draw this line?


just asking 19
quote:
However, speaking to the self-image issue, we have to consider that ALL women of ALL races are constantly judged by their appearance. A man is judged as handsome or not, but this really has little bearing on the estimation of his worth as a human being.


Yeah this is the perfect example of the game many women of all races and nationalities play. They say they don't really care about a man's looks because, more often than not, they're more focused on looking in a man's wallet, how tall he is, what he's working with, and how well he can work it rather than how good he looks.

With a lot of women all it takes is a man being over six feet tall to swoon them. Too many would rather take the 6'2" man behind door number one they know nothing about than take the 5' 8" to 5' 11" that's right in their face with all the wants and needs any sensible woman of sound mind and body could ever ask for.

Many women are happy to use the excuse that females are always judged by their appearance to happily self-indulge in everything imaginable that is available to mankind that is designed to augment a woman's appearance from 9 inch heels to specialized undergarments to clothing to make-up and plastic surgery. Women are even going so far as to fly to South America and risk their lives with questionable physicians in order to improve or augment their appearance.

Many women won't even look at a man under 6 feet tall but that's supposed to be okay. But if a man judges a woman by the size of her breasts or her booty or the length of her hair, then he's a dirty bastard. Now, don't think I'm some bitter, lonely, woman-hating loser. I'm just dropping truth to balance out these issues where so many women so shamelessly act like they're being treated so unfairly.
quote:
Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:

Now, don't think I'm some bitter, lonely, woman-hating loser.



Well, can you give me something to work with? I mean, I'm an educated, hardworking, financially responsible, no child having sista. I gets mine. You are an educated hardworking financially responsible childless brotha. You gets yours. Now, can we get on a "community level" strictly for the purposes of this discussion? I would like to be able to talk/type with you on things other than sistas' poor dating choices...

While you may have some valid points about an individual's choices, I was really speaking to the effect of IMAGERY on AfricanAmericans as a whole. Brothas and sistas do indeed make some questionalbe choices that make us say WTF? Confused and, there are some FRANKENBROTHAS and FRANKENSISTAS lurking out there, waiting to pray on the next victim, just like the undead. However, In my original post, I am speaking about how the image of "white as normal" may affect sistas, and perhaps brothas on a psychological basis.

Am I to gather from your response that you believe IMAGERY is not that big of an effect on black women and men?

I read somewhere that the average american is subjected to somewhere around 400 images per day via tv, magazines, billboards, product labels etc.

If a smiling thin blue eyed blonde is depicted in 375 of these 400 images we see each day, does that have any detrimental effect?
off Earlier last year there was a topic from another site about Asian women and black men in shows like E.R. and Grey's Anatomy.

Last week, I was checking out this episode of this new program of "Star Trek: New Voyages", where Mr. Sulu, the lone Asian male character has a blasian (Black/Asian) daughter. This is very rare to see Asian men and black women as couples in either movies or on television. When I first saw this, I thought, "Did Sulu and Uhura finally hooked up with each other?"
Star Trek New Voyages | World Enough and Time

Are minorities dating/marrying other minorities is more tolerable than black/white or just as terrible?
quote:
Originally posted by negrospiritual:
I posted this in response to another thread about bridal magazines, but it's worth revisiting...


quote:

Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:

I'm not a woman, so I don't know how women think but - damn - you'd think that at some point a woman would know how to draw the line between their own self concept and how the media dictates what is an ideal female.



I don't believe that the absence of black brides in bridal magazines is a huge issue. We are not commonly groomed to believe in the princess fairytale or even to take marriage for granted as an automatic right of passage.

However, speaking to the self-image issue, we have to consider that ALL women of ALL races are constantly judged by their appearance. A man is judged as handsome or not, but this really has little bearing on the estimation of his worth as a human being.

Women around the world are constantly, and subtly bombarded with commercials, cosmetics, radioshow host comments, movies, magazines, billboards, etc. Even imagery which is ostensibly not about appearance reinforces a particular aesthetic as "normal" i.e., cereal, insurance, maxi pad, beer, bug spray, and mini-van commercials still feature (predominantly) a particular type of woman as the "normal" people doing "normal things". By default depicting anything non-white becomes "abnormal".

If one glances occasionally through websites which contain member "pages", men all around the world from India, to Morroco, to Quattar, to Kuwait, SouthAmerica, to Atlanta are seeking white females...IMHO, not because they're so much more desirable, but because they've been bombarded with Western imagery which exhalts white female flesh as the epitome of a good normal life.

I do understand your statements about the need to establish self esteem as separate from what the media dictates and I agree

But who is teaching our beautiful brown babies male and female how to draw this line?


just asking 19


rock dance Smile
quote:
Originally posted by Romulus Burnett:
Yeah this is the perfect example of the game many women of all races and nationalities play. They say they don't really care about a man's looks because, more often than not, they're more focused on looking in a man's wallet, how tall he is, what he's working with, and how well he can work it rather than how good he looks.

With a lot of women all it takes is a man being over six feet tall to swoon them. Too many would rather take the 6'2" man behind door number one they know nothing about than take the 5' 8" to 5' 11" that's right in their face with all the wants and needs any sensible woman of sound mind and body could ever ask for.

Many women are happy to use the excuse that females are always judged by their appearance to happily self-indulge in everything imaginable that is available to mankind that is designed to augment a woman's appearance from 9 inch heels to specialized undergarments to clothing to make-up and plastic surgery. Women are even going so far as to fly to South America and risk their lives with questionable physicians in order to improve or augment their appearance.

Many women won't even look at a man under 6 feet tall but that's supposed to be okay. But if a man judges a woman by the size of her breasts or her booty or the length of her hair, then he's a dirty bastard. Now, don't think I'm some bitter, lonely, woman-hating loser. I'm just dropping truth to balance out these issues where so many women so shamelessly act like they're being treated so unfairly.


The discussion is about interracial dating, not what attracts women. And you're forgetting that men are the pursuers. It is you all who do the picking. And exactly what are you pursuing and why is the focus of this discussion.

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