Firefighters Watch Home Go Up In Flames Over $75 Fee 



A smoldering rage may be all that remains after Gene Cranick's home burned to the ground last week in Obion County, Tennessee.

Firefighters are usually the bold "veni, vidi, vici" sort, but those from neighboring South Fulton could only say "veni, vidi." They came. They watched. That's it.

Cranick lives outside of the city limits and he admits that he forgot to pay a $75 annual service fee that would have provided him with fire protection. Firefighters wouldn't lift a finger, much less the hoses that might have saved the house.

The fire reportedly started in some barrels outside. As the flames crept closer to the home, Cranick says he offered to pay whatever it would take. The plea fell on deaf ears. Hours later, the home was gone.

So were three dogs and a cat.

"They coulda' been saved if they put water on it. But they didn't do it," Cranick told MSNBC.

The South Fulton firefighters did show up and managed to save a neighbor's field. The neighbor had paid the fee. But they would provide no heroics for the Cranicks. A local news report shows them climbing back on their trucks, flames still dancing over what was once the family's home.

The event was dubbed "pay for spray" by MSNBC host Keith Olbermann. It's a chilling vision of what could play out in a third world America, where paying taxes isn't enough to cover basic services. Fire protection, it turns out, is a privilege in some communities. On Monday's show, Olbermann railed against the larger implications the incident, calling it "a look now into the America envisioned by the tea party ... just a preview of what would come in a kind of a la carte government."



ThinkProgress was equally incensed:

As ThinkProgress has noted, there are currently two competing visions of governance in the United States. One, the conservative vision, believes in the on-your-own society, and informs a policy agenda that primarily serves the well off and privileged sectors of the country. The other vision, the progressive one, believes in an American Dream that works for all people, regardless of their racial, religious, or economic background.

The conservative vision was on full display last week in Obion County, Tennessee.

Cranick's wife, Paulette, doesn't blame the firefighters. "They're doing what they are told to do. It's not their fault," she told WPSD.

South Fulton Mayor David Crocker didn't exude compassion when interviewed for the same report, comparing the service to an insurance policy. "Anybody that's not in the city of South Fulton, it's a service we offer, either they accept it or they don't."

A family in Tennessee didn't accept. They lost their home over a $75 fee.




MSNBC'S Keith Olbermann Interviews Man Whose House Burned as Fire Department Watched






http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...as-hom_n_750272.html
Original Post

Very interesting article. They should have put the fire out then just bill the guy the cost of all the fire trucks and all the fire men and all the equiptment it took to put out the fire; maybe $5000.00 maybe $10,000.00

I also think the fact that Keith Olbermann attempted to imply this is an invision of the Tea party causes him to loose all credibility in my book.

Kevin

Quote by Kevin-1122:

"I also think the fact that Keith Olbermann attempted to imply this is an invision of the Tea party causes him to loose all credibility in my book."


The way that this situation was handled is exactly the way that the Tea Party Movement want their "hands of" government to be enforced so Keith Oberlmann s right on point.



A "pay up front as you go" fee system where basic city services like firefighting, ambulances, the police and other services provided by the city/state government would be handled in that exact manner.



In this case, the "government" is not Washington, DC or President Obaa but the "local goverment" in the place that you live.


You will deduct and pay taxes from your paycheck for all city/state equipment, training, maintenance, adminstrative, payroll & personnel from your paycheck per person, to pay for the services that you need (that will just sit there idle) but pay extra (as in this case) to get the actual service performed for you and as you noted, it will not be 75.00 for the majority of Americans but the increased amounts that you quoted and much more and depending on where you live and how much you make, hundreds of thousands of homes will go up in flames, hundreds of thousands of people will die annually because of no medical services rendered and the police will not come to your aid regardless of the situation and in addition, you will not have your mail delivered if you don't pay the additional fees (try paying UPS or Fed-X monthly or annually), can't use the local library and if the really wanted to be technical and tough, you would have to pay an extra fee just to drive on all city streets and state roads since they are also goverment owned, operated and maintained.


So just imagine that your house got robbed or someone invaded your home, kidnaps and holds you hostage and/or killed your wife and kids....you call 911 for asistance and the 911 dispatch informs you that the police can't come to your home because you did not pay your fees or maybe you paid your fees and an adminstrative at the tax office error ommited your name from the paid fee list....it's not your fault....but you get no help eventhought you paid but your not listed.....and the police departtment? All they can ay is too bad but your family is dead because they could not arrive in order to try and possibly save your family.


It's one thing to rally and protest the "I want the goverment hands out of my business" rhetoric, thinking that it only revolves around Washington, DC nd President Obama  but the majority of the Tea Party people, who fall into this gap and simply don't/woulld not have the money to pay all these additional annual upfront fees out-of-pocket for these no ready services, need to re-think exactly what they are blindly protesting for because they really don't understand what they're really asking for but that's what happens when the blind are angry and are being led by greedy, corrupt and power hungry Republican rhetoric..

Reference:
It's one thing to rally and protest the "I want the goverment hands out of my business" rhetoric, thinking that it only revolves around Washington, DC nd President Obama but the majority of the Tea Party people, who fall into this gap and simply don't/woulld not have the money to pay all these additional annual upfront fees out-of-pocket for these no ready services, need to re-think exactly what they are blindly protesting for because they really don't understand what they're really asking for but that's what happens when the blind are angry and are being led by greedy, corrupt and power hungry Republican rhetoric..
On point brother Cholly. A group of people pretending to understand what they are protesting. And the underlying root of this idiodicy is racism and greed, IMO. Thinking for many of these Tea Party people is not in the equation.
Question: since this man is a U.S. taxpayer, why would he need to pay additional fees to the fire department?  ARent these firetrucks and equipment bought with state, local, and federal dollars plus any donations? 


Can this fire department be sued?  They sat and watched a home be burned completely down.  Isn't that some form of negligence or depraved indifference?
Reference:
The fire reportedly started in some barrels outside. As the flames crept closer to the home, Cranick says he offered to pay whatever it would take. The plea fell on deaf ears. Hours later, the home was gone.
So why couldn't they accept the fee on the spot?  I hope this goes to court and the fire dept and mayor have to pay for the rebuilding of this family's home.  That was evil of them.
The issue comes in where some who hadn't paid the fee, still recieved service & were billed later. Did you read the story? Additionally, he had the same experience. Again, the state & the town should take ownership for the finances of the taxes paid by homeowners. This guy was a homeowner.
Yeah I read the story.  The fact that the department acted outside of its authority most likely brought more strict oversight.  The guy lives outside of the town and the state has nothing to do with the fire department.  This guy was a homeowner in an area that had not fire department.  Sucks to be him.
Here are 2 comments from Huffington Post about the funding of fire departments.  Of course they are not authoritative, but they do provide some insight.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...750272_62720736.html


“City fire departments are generally funded by property taxes, not being in the city he still could have gotten coverage for a minimum fee(which is undoubtedly much less than the prop. tax). The county set up this policy rather than funding full coverage. They set a system where residents could contract with neighboring cities. There are any number of counties and other cities in Tenn that were also not responsible for this man's house and I do not blame them either.

Can administrators change policy? Of course. The policy in this case is not however in the hands of the fire department or even the city. Policy in this case is the responsibility of the county gov't.”
__________________________________________________________________________



Nice try. Schools are normally funded by property taxes, but in my neck of the woods, it's sales tax that funds fire departments.

Yes, he could have paid the fee in advance and for whatever reason he didn't. He did attempt to pay the fee, but the bill collector refused it preferring to let the house burn because he couldn't be bothered to collect the fee.

Our government is to serve the people, not teach lessons on paying bills on time. Who benefited from the failure to collect the fee? The firefighters were already on the clock hooting and hollering at the bonfire so the community still paid their wages and for the gas and for the firetrucks and everything else. They just didn't get what they paid for because a mean hearted bureaucrat wouldn't allow it.
Not only should this family sue the county and the fire department, their neighbors should sue as well, because this fire could have easily damage or burn down the neighbors' homes or property.  They endangered the nearby neighbors and property by not putting out the fire and leaving the scene while the fire was still burning.  I'm sure that if this goes to court, enacting a policy like this by a public service would be found to be unconstitutional in the first place.
Reference:
Question: since this man is a U.S. taxpayer, why would he need to pay additional fees to the fire department? ARent these firetrucks and equipment bought with state, local, and federal dollars plus any donations?

I'm with NSpirit on this one!! 

If ANY collected tax money was used to buy anything related to the fire, police, emergency, or any other state or local services that covers the area where he lives .... then he has already paid to receive assistance for any services that he might need.
This is a sad story, but it is the expected result of the system they have in place there. 

The city itself has a property tax-supported fire department, and within the city limits the fire dept will put out any fire.  The parts of the county that aren't part of the city evidently aren't incorporated into municipalities.  Those areas do not have their own fire department, and so the arrangement is that individual property owners in the county, outside the city limits, can get the city's fire services if they pay the user fee each year.

I think it's a ridiculous situation -- especially because these people USED to pay the fee, but simply forgot to pay it this year (how about a reminder letter?). 

It's a $75 fee.  The right thing to do -- the smart thing and the moral thing -- would be to put the fire out and then charge non-payers for the full cost of putting the fire out.  You really can't have a situation where a fire department is refusing to put out a fire.  That's like a doctor refusing to help someone who's having a heart attack. 

Being from New Jersey, where every square inch of the state is divided into municipalities, it's weird to me that there are places where that's not the case, but it's probably a lot more common than I realize.  Nevertheless, it is VERY common in this state for fire fighters from different towns to help out when there's a fire in another town, especially if it's a really big fire.  That's done without any kind of financial arrangement. 

Olbermann's point about the tea party is a bit of a stretch, but at the same time, the Tea Partiers are not compassionate people, and when you combine their idea of extremely limited government with that kind of mean-spiritedness, the association Olbermann is making is not outside the realm of possibility. 

Meanwhile, maybe that county and the city should rethink their relationship.

Cholly

(quote)
The way that this situation was handled is exactly the way that the Tea Party Movement want their "hands of" government to be enforced so Keith Oberlmann s right on point.


A "pay up front as you go" fee system where basic city services like firefighting, ambulances, the police and other services provided by the city/state government would be handled in that exact manner.
"

 

(reply)

And how do you know this? Have you actually attended one of those tea party rallies? Have you talked to an actual tea party member? Or are you getting all your information from the left wing media! I get a feeling it is the latter rather than the former.

 

Yemaya

(quote)

On point brother Cholly. A group of people pretending to understand what they are protesting. And the underlying root of this idiodicy is racism and greed

 

(reply)

Have you considered the possibility that maybe it is YOU GUYS who are the group who are pretending to understand what they are protesting? Have you actually talked to these people with an attempt to understand what their beef is? If you want to know about somebody, you talk to the person, not their enemy.

 

Kevin

Quote by Kevin-1222: "Have you talked to an actual tea party member? Or are you getting all your information from the left wing media!"


Yes I have spoken to a Tea Party member at great lenght and it amazed me how brainwashed Tea Party followers are because when it all boils down to a pseudo argument of the uninformed regarding individual freedom, "I want my counry back" (who took the country and what exactly does that mean?) state rights, freedom of speech and the Constitution wrapped around the fact that Tea Party people have (in their collective minds) lost their power and rightful place in this country since Obama became President (his election was a pure shock to their system) and the Fox News/Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin/Rush Limbaugh obsession is paramount religion in the way they think, act, decide and respond to everything........ and when I asked this Tea Party person what alternative solutions to the President and Democrats do you propose to resolve the issues facing this country, the person got really quiet and finally answered with the same usual Republican rhetoric that got America in trouble in the first place; TAX CUTS and  Regan era trickle down economics that won't create enough meaningful jobs (just enough to pad the stats) but allow the rich to become richer while they hoard the profits and build/ship jobs overseas for cheap labor and no benefits pay packages....and who loses out? The very tea party members who don't understand what the rich Republicans are doing to them yet they support this rhetoric.....rich people don't give a fyck about the poor ot middle America so just for that reason alone, the Tae party people are just dumb and purposely ill informed yet they demand the very change that will screw them over...now that's what i call severly dumb motherfuckers.


it does not take a genius to see exactly what the Tea Party and the hard core Republicans (since they are eliminating any moderate Republicans or ones that works with Democrats) is all about after 2 years of scare tactics, race baiting, the false use of religion, yellin' & screamin"; and all this fuss is about regaining power and control in the Senate, House and White House and if Republicans were really serious about the conditions of this country, then they would have created the Tea Party and protested non stop when inept President Bush was fuckin' everything up for 8 years and creating this near potential U.S. depression and severe recession that we now face..


But then again they would not have done that since the Republicans controlled the White House and employed and embraced all the corporate lobbyist controls & de-regulations on Wall Street that increased the national debt by trillions of dollars, killed off millions of jobs, destroyed the housiing and financial markets with all their evil home buy practices and default swaps while hedging their bets on Wall Street that the housing market bubble would burst in order to gain multi-billions etc....need I go on? and Kevin, you want me to believe and drink the kool-aid that the very same thing that got us into this mess are the very exact solutions to America's problems. That we need to go back to the future in order to right the ship which would be better than what is currently being done by the President.....tell me Kevin-1222, how would that actually work?.....I have yet to see in all my years seen that "Groundhog Day" type situation happen and be effective..and the Republicans, despite all their noise, has yet to offer a solution to any problems and assist the Democrats into fixing anything so what does that tell you about people who see a problem that needs correction but time and time again, refused to help or assist and while the people in power work the issues, they stand idley by and pray that you fail so that they can regain control and return to and redo the same shit that caused this mess?




Kevin-1222, That's really stupid.


Listening to the Liberal left wing? Nah, just paying attention. This is way to simple to figure out and the right wing Republican bullshit is so clear & obvious..


Kevin 1222? Do me and the people here on AA.org a huge favor and wake the fuck up.

Cholly

(quote)
"Yes I have spoken to a Tea Party member at great lenght "

 
(reply)
When you spoke to this Tea Party member, did he/she say they wanted basic necessities such as police, ambulance, and firefighters to be on a pay you go system? I've never heard any Tea Party member make such a ridiculas claim.

There is a big difference between having a problem with the way taxes are spent and not wanting any government services at all


K

Kevin you are wasting time.  You are pretending as if the "Tea Party" is something more than an astroturf corporate republican creation.  They spout the identical talking points of the republicans and worship which ever college drop-out radio host babbles the most vile and idiotic ramblings. 


The original tea party members may have had a point about government no longer being responsive to the people, but it has been long obscured by the racist dog whistles of the likes of Sarah Palin, secessionist rants of Tex Gov Rick Perry, and hitler/socialism/hell no to healthcare but get the government out of my social security benefits geriatric crowd.  All of these are funded by astroturf organizations who bus the individuals to various "rallies". 


There is no legitimate defense for what the tea party has allowed itself to become since it has been coopted by the republicans and corrupted by whining anti-american racists. 


We, here at AFricanAmerica.org KNOW WHO THE TEAPARTY IS. 


Stop wasting time with crying and moaning about the reputation that the tea party has rightfully earned and tell us where your beliefs diverge from theirs or else be lumped in with the rest of your useless, racist brethren.

You know its funny. I belong to this network of radio shows on Blog Talk Radio and we have a 'black guy' called Brother K who goes around to spewing the conservative garbage. He's a registered Black Republican who is a Tea Party sympathizer, ultra christian conservative, sympathetic to the teachings of so-called Rev. David Manning, married to a white woman (unapologetically) and constantly talks out the side of his face trying to convince black people to join up with these al-crackas Tea Party. These are the type of self-hating & self-absorbed black folks who make up the <5% of the black population and thoroughly support the Tea Party. 

@Kevin1122, I would say that the big difference that the Tea Party wants to see would be like 1955 Montgomery, AL. Black folk paying full fare, but getting on the back of the bus or sometimes not being able to get on at all. What I am saying is this, what these conservatives want from all indication is to be on top meaning they can take all of our money and resources as non-whites to use for their advantage as it has been done in the past. Simply whites want to conserve the system of inequality that works in their favor. For a black man who is still getting the short end of the stick even if you have been led to believe you are living high on the hog when white counterparts have moved on to filet mignon, I just don't understand what the hell you are thinking?? Have you been drinking grape koolaid and calling it Bordeaux wine?

Nspirit

(quote)
"Kevin you are wasting time. You are pretending as if the "Tea Party" is something more than an astroturf corporate republican creation."

 

(reply)

No I am not! And quit tryin to change the subject! The only thing I am "pretending" is that this MSNBC host Keith Olbermann has lost all credibility when he used this poor mans burning house as an avenue of attacking the Tea Party. Then Cholly and Yemeya agreed with him claiming that type of "pay up front" for government services such as police, ambulance, or firefighters is what the Tea Party is really up to.

Unless somebody can show there is at least an ounce of truth to this ridiculas claim.....my point stands.

All that other BS yall keep bring up is just a bunch of noise that I refuse to address because it has nothing to do with what I am objecting to

.
Peace

K

If I had to put myself in a category I would classify myself with being a conservative that supports the Tea Party. Where I run into problems, is that everytime a member or supporter has a chance to say something using their brain, they make the entire group sound like idiots with not one original thought in the bunch.


Even though I can't find the answer, I would like to know what party the individual supports. If he is of the belief gov't is too big and I don't need to pay jack, then he should accept and be held accountable for his actions. If he is a law abiding citizen then hopefully the courts will solve this before it starts to erode even more.
Please, the tea party is just a bunch of American racists being funded by billionaire special interest groups (ex.:  Koch Brothers), to create anarchy for the first Black president and the democrats.  

It is in the interest of big business, big banks, the oil companies, etc., that this administration fail and democrats become unseated because they need a republican controlled congress in order to make sure they continue to be able to do business unchecked and unaccountable.  

Special interest groups like the Koch brothers are financing the so-called tea party; these special interest groups are merely using the tea party members to make it appear as if this administration's policies are in direct opposition to what the voters want, when in reality, this administration, it's policies and vision for this country are in direct opposition to what these special interest groups want; accountability, check and balances in place, over-site of financial institutions, labor laws, and business practices.

The tea party i.e., America's racists being backed financially and having some of their neaderthal characters and points-of-views cloaked with fake rationalizations of being apposed to this administrations policies are a fraud.  If all the issues that the tea party claims to be opposed to were their true agenda, then, the tea party would have been started shortly after George Bush was elected.  

As far as Black people being members of the tea party, that isn't any different than Black people being members of the republican party, even after the only reason for republicans' rise to power has been at the expense of African Americans by their politics of demonizing Black people in America (from the welfare queen, to Willie Horton, etc.). They are no different than the Black man who marches each year in the Confederate Soldiers parade, especially since the republican party crawled in bed with the most racist southern politicians, (recently, beginning with Reagan).  So, now the republican party is dominated by racist southern politicians and only get elected to political office by racists Americans and via campaign contributions of special interest groups, that in actuality are the same people that have shipped American jobs overseas, are always against increasing the minimum wage, are against national healthcare, are against employee rights and workplace fairness and intend to do business in other countries at American taxpayers' expense.
Quote by Kevin-1222: "Then Cholly and Yemeya agreed with him claiming that type of "pay up front" for government services such as police, ambulance, or firefighters is what the Tea Party is really up to."


If you pay attention to the Tea Party over the  period of the last 2 years since the election and what's been revealved, the Tea party's vision of  a "no governmet, hands free freedom" society with miminal or no federal government regulations or standards would allow this and other asasine rules to be set in stone as policy and this type of thing would happen on a regular basis all over America.



The Tea Party despte all their talking heads and MSM safeguarding, cannot separate themselves from all that they have said and done in those two years....they have consistantly revealed themselves and they cannot take any of it back but now they want you to practice selective memory and "forget" about all that they have said and done in the recent past, no different than they wanting all Americans to forget about President George W. Bush.....the name they dare not mention at all or fear (at least in public) be seen with.........the primary stockholder, homeowner, CEO & Chairman of the Board of this current massive recession fyck up.


And the Tea Party, for all their rhetoric about getting government (and by "government", meaning President Obama) out of their lives at the state and locall level means that the local government and it's officials would become IMO, a series of individual outlaw entities; western saloon, gun-slinger lawless type town/community where it's every man, woman and family for himself with little or no outside interventions (isolated communities) to control & navigate their own laws a la carte and in reality, many citizens would be purposely, excluded, unaccounted for, violated and racially suppressed in everyday life......The Tea Party talks all the time about returning to the "good ole days" and those good old days they are referring to are the Jim Crow Era of the early years: the 40's 50's and 60's.....A return to, once again, "Whites Only" environment with all the benefits, perks and privledges.....with little or no regard or conccern for minorities of any kind unless it benefits them domestically or financially......and they do not hide that fact.



You also have to realize that many of the older leaders of this Tea Party (late middle aged and seniors citizens) alive today were raised, groomed, brought up and taught by their racist parents/grandparents during the extreme racist past decades and the "Whites Only" federally approved and American stamped Jim Crow Era; the late 1950's and  throughout the 60's before, during and after Civil Rights era and many of these people and politicans (at all levels of government) who make the rules today lived through all the racial changes but still believe in that past and carry much hate and disdain in their hearts and minds because prior to these changes, they lived a  lilly White privledged life as White children that was good as they (Whites) could create (boung heavily in the Christain religion) and were in complete control with all the rules benefitting them and them only.



They miss those days of total White supremacy & superiority and they want it back.


Kevin 1222, do you realized what just happened here?


This man's house burned to the ground because he forgot to pay a $75.00 up front additional and the fire department just watched it burn. Firemen, as highly trained professionals (or at least I thought) had a professional and moral obligation and duty to it's citizen's protection, safety and taking care of it's citizens and perform their duties regardless if that man paid up front or not and the fact that he had his checkbook out to pay the firemen on
the spot any amount to put the fire out and they still refused because of that jacked up local law and if they did accept his money and put out the fire, then they (the Fire Chief & firemen) would be reprimanded and/or possibly be fired for doing the right thing?



Just imagine the conservation if they had put that fire out:


"You (Firehouse #XXX) without any authorization or approvals, put out that fire. You knew that you were not supposed to since that homeowner did not pay his additional taxes and you did it anyway. You violated established local law requirements and you Fire Chief XYZ, along with your firemen and firehouse, will be fined or subjected to adverse administrtive actions because you violated the city rules" ... and if another event such as this presents itself again....and it will.... DO NOT PUT OUT THE FIRE!..... LET IT BURN!! THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS!!




Does that make any sense to you?


Just imagine, being fired or fined for doing what you, as a city protector, are trained for and supposed to protect the people and it's community .......and I go back to this point, your home broken into, being robbed and your family being terrorized, violated or possibly killed while the police sat in their squad cars outside your home watching all this violent activity going on while eating Krispy Kreme doughnuts and drinking 7-Eleven coffee....and why?...because you didn't pay the additional fee.


You see, the omission of federal laws across the board and allowing each and every state and local community to create without question, their own established local laws without any inspection or oversight: blanketing/shadowing federal law to oversee and control those laws create situations just like this....every man an woman for himself with no regard for what's right, compassion or empathy.....and this reality, as crazy as it sounds and you don't want to believe or admit to, is just a portion of what the Tea Party advocates in regards to a hands off, free of goverment regulations society.
Reference:

Cholly


If you pay attention to the Tea Party over the period of the last 2 years since the election and what's been revealved, the Tea party's vision of a "no governmet, hands free freedom" society with miminal or no federal government regulations or standards would allow this and other asasine rules to be set in stone as policy and this type of thing would happen on a regular basis all over America.

Oh so now they want no government at all? Are they anarchists? If they don't want any government at all, why are some of them actually running for political office? Why is there a list of political canidates endorsed by the Tea Party? Canidates that hold true to " Tea Party values" as they say?

There is a BIG difference between wanting less government and wanting no government at all. Most of those republican/tea party types want government out of business, but gladly want the government to be used for their protection; military, police, etc. As a matter of fact it is those on the right who fight for the government to spend more on the military, more on police, giving the cops more power, building more jails etc than those on the left.

I will bet if you actually talked to one of those people you will see that they will be as appauled as you, I or anybody else that a person who is already over taxed has to pay extra for basic necessities such as fire protection. That's one of the first things that should be covered by the taxes we pay. There are plenty of other things that can be cut other than fire protection.

 

Kevin

Quote by Kevin-1222:

Oh so now they want no government at all? Are they anarchists? If they don't want any government at all, why are some of them actually running for political office? Why is there a list of political canidates endorsed by the Tea Party? Canidates that hold true to " Tea Party values" as they say?


Why those Tea Party political candidates?....because if elected, those Tea party candidaies will work for and only do the bidding of the Tea Party Movement and the extreme right wing only without any regard whatsoever for the rest of Americans and what they want.......isn't that why the Tea Party and hard core right wing voted out the more moderate or middle of the road incumbnt Republicans in office because they were "not conservative enough?".....so what does that indicate to you?....To me it displays the exact opinions that I blogged about in my last posting. These people want a hands free government controlled and operated by their selected politican who will guarantee and only grant their wishes while the rest of America citizens have no choice but to live under their rules and conditions and when that scenario happens, who do you think have all the advantages?  Not the majority of mericans but the few and that relity only creates separation and chaos..



And you made this quote: "Most of those republican/tea party types want government out of business, but gladly want the government to be used for their protection; military, police, etc. As a matter of fact it is those on the right who fight for the government to spend more on the military, more on police, giving the cops more power, building more jails etc than those on the left."


Where in the world did you get that reasonong from?.......The military industrial complex is funded by ALL taxpayers in this country and not just Republicans and the reason for the Republicans wanting to increase military and defense spending is not for personal, national and international protection but because of money and increased profits....defense contracting, research and development and building military equipment and weapons via major military defense contractor corporations like Lockheed Martin, General Electric and General Dynamics who aggressively lobby the Senate, the Congress and the Pentagon for bid on expensive defense contracts to build weapon systems along with the long term parts and maintenance programs in order to keep those weapons systems operational and maintain current wepon system contracts...and we are talking in the multi-billions of dollars over the long term and in a time in this country where we really don't need new weapons systems (and can eliminate hundreds of current weapon systems) since we are currently fighing an enemy who doesn't have fighter jets, naval ships, armored tanks, Humvees, helicopters etc that the American military would have to face on an equal battle field with similair type weapons....the Cold War is over.....so why build them if not to make a return on profit for the corporations and the rich who heavily invest in them?   



See Kevin, you have to think about what's really happening and stop listening to the right wing rhetoric that keeps you thinking in a foggy haze because that'e exactly what they want.



And Kevin, the industrial prison complex? Just another corporate cash cow maoney maker, using prison labor to make many of the everday items that Americans use.



As 1995 drew to a close, one out of every 167 Americans was in prison or jail, compared to one out of 320 in 1985, when the crack cocaine trade began to proliferate. The total number of inmates has more than doubled in the past decade, and we just can’t seem to build enough prisons to keep them all in.

Add the trend towards private prison facility management and corporate use of prison labor, and you have an extremely unsettling social situation. Are we witnessing the creation of a slave labor force for the corporate New World Order?

Quite possibly, if the Oakhill Correctional Institute in Dane County, Wisconsin serves as a model. Seventeen inmates crowded in a makeshift basement factory in that facility crank out over a million dollars’ worth of office chairs per year, in exchange for wages ranging from twenty cents to $1.50 per hour.



Read more: http://www.darkgovernment.com/...ystem/#ixzz12CWHwcFS




The operation is run by Badger State Industries, the Wisconsin prison industries program, which employs 600 inmates and which raked in a $1.2 million profit in 1995. In the past, to protect manufacturers from unfair competition, Wisconsin allowed sale of prison-made goods only to state and local government agencies. But Governor Tommy Thompson’s new state budget allows commercial entities to use prison facilities and labor for manufacturing purposes. The money will be used to pay for the costs of incarcerating the prisoners — including the ones who work in the factories.

Wisconsin is following the lead of other states, such as California, Tennessee, Kansas, Ohio, Oregon, Texas, Nevada and Iowa, which have incorporated prisoners into the labor force, placing artificial downward pressure on wages. Thousands of state and federal prisoners are currently generating more than $1 billion per year in sales for private businesses, often competing directly with the private sector labor force. The Correctional Industries Association predicts that by the year 2000, 30 percent of America’s inmate population will labor to create nearly $9 billion in sales for private business interests.

Oregon has even started advertising its prison labor force and factories, claiming that businesses who utilize incarcerated workers would otherwise go overseas for cheap labor (thanks, GATT and NAFTA!). In 1995, an overwhelming majority of Oregon voters passed a constitutional amendment that will put 100 percent of its state inmates to work.

And they’ll be making a lot more than license plates and road signs. One product of Oregon’s inmate factories are uniforms for McDonald’s. Tennessee inmates stitch together jeans for Kmart and JC Penney, as well as $80 wooden rocking ponies for Eddie Bauer. Mattresses and furniture are perennial favorites in prison factories, and Ohio inmates even produced car parts for Honda, until the United Auto Workers intervened. Prisoners have been employed doing data entry, assembling computer circuit boards and even taking credit card ticket orders for TWA.

But private industry isn’t the only sector eager to exploit cheap prison labor. On June 14, 1995, the U.S. House of Representatives narrowly rejected an amendment to the 1996 Defense Authorization bill which would have permitted the Defense Department to use nonviolent offender inmates provided by state or local corrections facilities to do construction and maintenance services at military installations.

Although prison manufacturing facilities do offer short-term benefits at a time when budgets are strained to the breaking point, the system is ripe for exploitation and abuse by government and corporate entities seeking to cut financial corners. Proponents of prison labor say it is “good” for inmates, providing income and on-the-job training they would have never received otherwise.

But due to a lack of restrictions to prevent abuse of the prison labor force, many inmates view the situation very differently. At Soledad near Monterey, California, prisoners earn 45 cents per hour making blue work shirts, which, once deductions are taken out, adds up to $60 for a month of 40-hour work weeks. “They put you on a machine and expect you to put out for them,” Soledad inmate Dino Navarrete told Arm the Spirit. “Nobody wants to do that. These jobs are jokes to most inmates here.”



http://www.darkgovernment.com/...n-u-s-prison-system/


Ask yourself...why have prisoners, who have no rights, perform these manufacturing jobs of goods within the industrial prison system complexf for virtually no pay at all and not build factories for everyday free American citizens to make the same products who need the work?...Kevin, why is that?.....So Kevin, you see that prisoner incareration is not just about housing criminals for the crimes that they commit, it's also lucrative big corporate business.

Now you are just bringing up a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with what I was objecting to. I objected to the claim that this "pay up front" system, rather than the standard tax system; is what the Tea Party is really up to, and thus far you haven't provided any evidence that there is any truth to this claim.

As far as all that other stuff you keep tryin ta bring up....let's just say you're entitled to your opinion

Peace

Kevin

Kevin's Tea Party defending Azz Reference:
Now you are just bringing up a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with what I was objecting to.
But the "bunch of stuff" being brought up is true whether its within the narrow scope you prefer or not.  Posters here have observed the tea party and the statements their members have made and have reached a valid conclusion about the political philosophy of its members.  Keith Olbermann really isn't even relevant here.  


The Tea Party is a known entity.  They embrace wholeheartedly the "small government + personal responsibility" rhetoric and "free market" corporatism that is spoonfed to them from various rightwing sources.  That is entirely consistent with rejecting healthcare reform, gutting the public school system, complaining about people receiving unemployment benefits and letting a man's house burn down because of an unpaid $75 fee. 


That you wish to defend this says a whole lot about you.
Sunnubian Reference:
Please, the tea party is just a bunch of American racists being funded by billionaire special interest groups (ex.: Koch Brothers), to create anarchy for the first Black president and the democrats.

It is in the interest of big business, big banks, the oil companies, etc., that this administration fail and democrats become unseated because they need a republican controlled congress in order to make sure they continue to be able to do business unchecked and unaccountable.
Yeah that!
Quote by Kevin-1222: "N'ow you are just bringing up a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with what I was objecting to. I objected to the claim that this "pay up front" system, rather than the standard tax system; is what the Tea Party is really up to, and thus far you haven't provided any evidence that there is any truth to this claim.

As far as all that other stuff you keep tryin ta bring up....let's just say you're entitled to your opinion

Peace

Kevin"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a typical and sterling example of an avid and rabid Tea Party follower whose only ideas and thoughts are driven by pure dependent thoughts and the rhetoric of others; all the right leaning, hard core conservative right wing Fox News talking heads propaganda that being spoon fed in large doses and continues to fuel their dependent, non thinking blind rage and anger at the "government" (and by government, I mean President Obama) and in the case of Kevin-1222, his arguments on this particuliar subject has not gained any traction at all because he is being opposed at every turn and if you don't agree with him, give him the benefit of the doubt or give him that out that he wanted "you haven't proved anything or any evidence to support your position" shiggity"so that he can have some traction.


 This is just the way of telling me that he never had a credible argument regarding this issue in the first place and instead of actually thinking for himself and understanding idiocacy of the city government and the fire department in their actions and the tons of actual true facts that were placed upon him, blogger after blogger, in order for him to understand and connect the dots from a much broader perspective that would shine some light and truth on his fuzzy math and purpose driven misundertanding of the issues which by design, is constantly skewed in his mental psyche by the Tea Party and the Sarah Palins and Glen Becks of the world, who benefit pollitically and financially by Kevin 1-2222 and his right wing confusion, ineptitude and bainwashing, he instead leave the debate (salutation: "Peace, Kevin") and scurries back to the warm bosum and head stroking of the Tea Party where he can find solice, comfort and understanding in his ideas supported by his Tea Party brethern who are just as dooped and brainwashed as he is,......and once he returns, he will tell a different story about how he was attacked by the liberals for his thoughts and ideas...and once there, he will get a huge hug and kiss from his ilk and be praised for his courage by confronting the "enemy".



It's truly sad because with Tea Party followers, it doesn't matter their lot in life, their positions, education level, their income status or lifestyle, they are all in a Star Trek, "Dr. Spock" mind meld in regards to their robotic thinking and actions regarding their beliefs and the rhetoric talkers and politicans on the far right and these leaders know that they are stupid & taking a cruel advantage of these people for financial gain, control and power and as long as they keep them religiously dependent, angry and confused, they will continue to rail against their own interests and if elected, these leaders will bury these people in a far dire and deeper situation that they are already in.....and for those leaders once in control, will return to business as usual, separate and share the spolis of victory among themselves........and give their followers crumbs......and the weird part? These Republican zealots like Kevin-1222 have been throughly convinced and have convinced themselves that the last 8 years of Republican rule of George Bush and Ronald Regan's "hero" idealogy (that created this mess) is exactly what they need to return America to "greatness" that has somehow been lost after 22 months of the so-called "failure" to resolve this mess currently being aggresively addressed by the Obama adnimstration.



You know, years ago, when Rev, Jim Jones took his religiously brainwashed followers from California to Ghana, Africa in order to start a new civilization and in the end, purposely cause the suicide and murder of 900 people at the hands of his sadistic ways of thinking, sexual control & twisted idealogy, knowing tat he purposely prayed upon their dependency and weakness of mind and spirit, I always wondered "how did he do that?"......with the Tea Party, now I think I have a very good idea.



And for thought?......what happens to the Tea Party after Nov. 3rd and the Dems and the resuts gained more seats in both the House & Senate, stay in power and gain even more power and control (totally eliminating the Republican filibuster and not needing blue dog Dem support) to bolster President Obama's agenda moving forward......in other words, another crushing defeat for the Republicans 23 months after the "shock & awe" defeat of John McCain during the general election.....they have spent a lot of capital and devised many a scheme in these 23 months.......what will their "Plan C" going forward look like and what will the Tea Party do since they have virtually no way of stopping anything?....Will "Plan C" constitute physically violence? .....it's not beneath them to do so.


Kevin-1222, I truly feel sorry for you.

Reference:
Rev, Jim Jones took his religiously brainwashed followers from California to Ghana, Africa
  Great points Brotha Cholly.  But! umm For clarity Jonestown, was in Guyana... in South America.  Everyone confuses Ghana and Guyana all the time.   It is perfectly NORMAL and does not minimize or take away from your excellent points....one bit.  Just...keepin it real.  But!  I'm just sayin 
Reference:
Now you are just bringing up a bunch of stuff that has nothing to do with what I was objecting to


Did he really just call the basic premise of the political philosophy of the Tea Party - which he says he SUPPORTS ... "a bunch of stuff"????

This is the same kind of mentality that has Republicans trying to discredit the President's agenda by saying that it's not producing jobs .... while at the same time forgetting (?) that the whole time Republicans were in charge ... tens of millions of jobs (American salaries) were outsourced overseas ... whole industries were decimated (manufacturing, communications) because they closed down shop here in America ....

By the end of the 8-years of Republican-led policy .... hundreds of thousands of people were losing their jobs EVERY SINGLE MONTH.  There wasn't even the slightest hint of job creation!! 

Until now.
Nspirit

Reference:
Keith Olbermann really isn't even relevant here.

(reply)

Of coures he is revelant! The only reason we are having this conversation is because of what he said! I objected to what he said and others began to support his claim. Thus far nobody has bothered to present a shread of evidence to back up his claim, but what he said is the only thing I objected to.

 

(quote)

"

But the "bunch of stuff" being brought up is true whether its within the narrow scope you prefer or not."

 

(reply)

True or not is irrevelant; that's not what I am objecting to. Look; there is a lot of things that can legitimately be said about the Tea Party without makin s**t up! When somebody claims that the Tea Party wants necessary things like police protection, ambulance service, or fire protection to be under this pay up front system rather than the current tax system that we have now, and if they neglect to pay up front, they won't get this protection, yet they neglect to provide a schread of evidence to back up such a ridiculas claim, as far as I am concerned, that's just makin s**t up!

 

Cholly

(quote)

Kevin-1222, I truly feel sorry for you.

 

(reply)

Really! Rather than wasting all that energy feeling sorry for me, why don't you spend a little of that energy on actually answering the question I've been trying to get out of you guys for the last few days?

So far all I've gotten is a bunch of folk bashing the Tea Party! If you wanna bash them, go ahead but you might wanna find somebody who actually cares! find somebody who actually supports their POV and you might get a debate in that area; with me, you are just waisting your time.

 

Ebony makes me laugh

(quote)

"

 

(reply)

Did he really just call the basic premise of the political philosophy of the Tea Party - which he says he SUPPORTS ... "a bunch of stuff"????"

Are you kidding me?? Where are you getting this stuff??? I said I support the Tea Party??? When did I ever make such a ridiculas claim? You jokin right! C'mon Ebony, you've got to be jokin.... Okay I've got the joke, I'm laughing now! Ha! ha, ha, dang ebony, you crack me up girl!!!

 

Kevin

Add Reply

Likes (0)
Post
×
×
×
×