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'Child sacrifices in London'
By Richard Edwards Crime Reporter, Evening Standard
16 June 2005
African boys are being murdered as human sacrifices in London churches, according to a shocking Scotland Yard report.

The Met has uncovered a trade in black boys being trafficked into the capital.

A number of fundamentalist sects believe powerful spells require the ritual killing of male children.


The leaked report also reveals countless examples of African children being killed after being identified as "witches" by church pastors.

The 10-month study was commissioned in the wake of the inquiry into the death of Victoria Climbie. The study aimed to be an "open dialogue" with the African and Asian community in Newham and Hackney.

In discussions with African community leaders officers were told of numerous examples of children being murdered because their parents or carers believe them to be possessed by "evil spirits". Police are now investigating claims further.

Earlier this month two women were convicted at the Old Bailey of torturing an eight-year-old child they accused of being a witch.

The girl, an orphaned refugee from war-torn Angola, was stabbed, kicked, beaten, had chilli peppers rubbed in her eyes and was forced into a laundry bag and threatened with drowning in a nearby river.

Last month Scotland Yard revealed it had been unable to trace all but two of 300 black boys aged four to seven reported missing from London schools in a three-month period.

Child welfare experts say the number highlights the scale of the trade in children brought to Britain. The figure emerged through the murder inquiry following the discovery of a child's torso in the Thames in September 2001.

The identity of the victim, named "Adam" by police, is not known but his background was traced to Nigeria. It is believed he died in a ritual sacrifice. Detectives asked each London educat ion authority to give them details of black boys aged four to seven reported missing from school between July and September 2001.

It emerged that 300 had vanished, 299 from Africa and one from the Caribbean.

Police only managed to trace two children. The true figure for missing boys and girls is feared to be several thousand a year.

Scotland Yard's new report into child abuse report, leaked to the Today programme on Radio4, came after the death of Victoria Climbié.

The eight year old was beaten, burned with cigarettes and forced to sleep in a bin liner inside an empty bath. She died in February 2000, suffering from hypothermia and malnutrition.

She had been brought to Britain by relatives claiming her as their daughter and was starved and traumatised after they said she was possessed by the devil.

Her plight was overlooked by police, social workers and medical staff and she died covered in bruises.

Her great aunt and her greataunt's boyfriend were convicted of her murder and were jailed for life at the Old Bailey.

A Met spokesman said: "The Met undertook a project based on recommendations arising from the Victoria Climbié report aimed at improving our knowledge of issues impacting child abuse within the African and Asian communities of London.

"This initiative employed two Community Partnership Officers who conducted the survey over a ten-month period ending in March 2005.

Working in Newham and Hackney, the CPOs ran a number of workshops with various sections of these communities debating issues such as female genital mutilation, physical chastisement, forced marriage and faith-related child abuse.

"The aim of the project was to open a dialogue within these communities and encourage a debate which would help reduce the risks of harm to children.

"The recommendations in the report, due to be published later this month, are being carefully considered at the highest levels in the MPS in conjunction with partner agencies and community groups." The report concludes police face a "wall of silence" when dealing with the fundamentalist African community.
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

The topic heading is a little misleading isn't it?

Having said that in the case of the torso of the boy found in the River Thames it is interesting that the many supporters of African Traditional religion on this site have not stepped forward to explain this sickening and horrifying practice.

Hmmmn but then if we did not know better such ones would tell you these types of carry on is the way forward for Africa.
Last edited {1}
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
The topic is a little misleading isn't it?

Having said that in the case of the torso of the boy found in the River Thames it is interesting that the many supporters of African Traditional religion on this site have not stepped forward to explain this sickening and horrifying practice.

Hmmmn but then if we did not know better such ones would tell you these types of carry on is the way forward for Africa.



How so, is the topic misleading?


So, you know this to be factual? That ritual 'killings' of young children is going on, as described? wth!
Sorry Nayo I should have said the "heading" is misleading. I would correct the last post.

The topic heading is misleading because there are no African Human Sacrifices taking place here in London. Also apart from the one mention of the torso in the river which is based on speculation by a racist white Police institution over here everything else posted had nothing to do with human sacrifices taking place here in London.
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
So, you know this to be factual? That ritual 'killings' of young children is going on, as described? wth!

Don't get me started .Wink Big Grin

All I can tell you is no continental African in their right mind or have even a tiny bit of education gets involved with traditional African religion. There is no history of anything good ever coming from it. You can trace slavery and every horror story coming from Africa to it. It is the cornerstone for fostering tribalism and tribal conflict. Here is a tip, notice how any time African's are involved with civil conflict traditional African religion plays a central part.

African are 99.999 percent Christian or Muslim. The people who engage in such things do not even come to any percentage. The bad news is we all know about our traditional religion and when our people's hearts are overtaken by tribal hatred they fall back to it and the rest is bad news.
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
quote:
Originally posted by nayo:
So, you know this to be factual? That ritual 'killings' of young children is going on, as described? wth!

Don't get me started .Wink Big Grin

All I can tell you is no continental African in their right mind or have even a tiny bit of education gets involved with traditional African religion. There is no history of anything good ever coming from it. You can trace slavery and every horror story coming from Africa to it. It is the cornerstone for fostering tribalism and tribal conflict. Here is a tip, notice how any time African's are involved with civil conflict traditional African religion plays a central part.

African are 99.999 percent Christian or Muslim. The people who engage in such things do not even come to any percentage. The bad news is we all know about our traditional religion and when our people's hearts are overtaken by tribal hatred they fall back to it and the rest is bad news.


I am afraid you are quite mistaken. No Traditionalist in his/her right mind would harm a child thinking that somehow this will get a blessing. Also for you to say that no educated African is involved in Traditional African religions is a lie. The Awise Ogunwande Abimbola is just one of the hundreds I know of personally. I also include myself.
Third as you probably know many so-called xtians and mohammedans come to Ifa priest for help, for you to suggest otherwise in your post is a lie. I only speak for Nigeria, I cannot speak for the entire continent as you have done here. The percentages you site are so much dung.
I will defend the terrible of African Traditional Religion when you defend the abominations of catholic priests buggering young boys and your pentacostal pastor pimps.
So Fagunwa you know any African country where this nonsense is a national reliigion or belief? Here is a challenge show me any African country that promotes this nonsense and I would say you have a point but I am confident I can go on the web to every African country and their national religion would be cited as Christian or Muslim. That being the case you and others are the one spreading a lie by promoting traditional African religion as if it is the mainstay of daily African life or worship.

I am so glad you mentioned Nigeria because in West Africa it is common knowledge that certain parts of Nigeria are notorious for the evil practice that is being discussed here. Yes we don't hear of no African country but Nigeria. I don't know how much time you spent in Nigeria or you wouldn't dare to try and defend what is indefensible knowing such nastiness goes on in that country. You try it and I can assure you end up with egg on your face by the time we finish the discussion.
Well Fagunwa since you so kindly got me started on one of my pet hates here is some information about Nigeria for you to digest. By the way it was written by a Nigerian.


----------------------------------------------
Ritual Killing and Pseudoscience in Nigeria
Leo Igwe

The murder in London of a Nigerian boy, simply named Adam by the British Police, might have brought to international focus and attention one of the most dreadful and horrifying practices in Nigeria - ritual killing.

In September 2001, the mutilated body of "Boy Adam" was found by the British Police floating in the River Thames, near Tower Bridge in London. A top police source suspected that Adam might have been a victim of a style of ritual killing practiced in west and southern Africa. And forensic examination revealed that Adam lived in southwestern Nigeria.

So, early this year, British detectives arrived in Nigeria in search of Adam's killers. Both the former president of South Africa, Nelson Mandela, and Nigerian soccer player Nwankwo Kanu, made passionate appeals for clues and information leading to the arrest of Adam's killers.

In July, Police arrested a 37-year-old Nigerian, Sam Onogigovie (in Dublin), and twenty-one other Nigerians in Britain in connection with the murder of Adam. Generally, ritual killing is a common practice in Nigeria. Every year, hundreds of Nigerians lose their lives to ritual murderers, also known as headhunters.

These head hunters go in search of human parts-head, breast, tongue, sexual organs-at the behest of witchdoctors, juju priests, and traditional medicine men who require them for some sacrifices or for the preparation of assorted magical potions.

Recently, there have been several reported cases of individuals who were kidnapped, killed, or had their bodies mutilated by ritualists in Nigeria. The most notorious of them is the one associated with one Chief Vincent Duru, popularly known as Otokoto.

It happened this way: In 1996, the police in the southern Nigerian city of Owerri arrested a man, Innocent Ekeanyanwu, with the head of a young boy, Ikechukwu Okonkwo. In the course of the investigation, the police discovered the buried torso of Ikechukwu on the premises of Otokoto Hotel, owned by Chief Duru, and uncovered a syndicate that specialized in ritual killing and the sale and procurement of human parts. The horrifying discoveries sparked off violent protests in the city of Owerri which led to the burning and looting of properties belonging to suspected killers. Otokoto and his ritualist syndicate were arrested and put on trial, and in February 2003, they were sentenced to death by hanging.

Apart from the Otokoto incident, there have been other instances of ritual murder and mutilation in other parts of the country. For instance, in Calabar, two men plucked out the eyes of a young lady, Adlyne Eze, for money-making ritual. And in Ifo, Ogun state, a businessman inflicted the same harm on his younger sister. In Ibadan, the police in December arrested a taxi driver, Abbas, who used his fourteen-month-old baby for rituals. Abbas killed his child in order to secure a human head, which was one of the materials listed for him by a local witchdoctor for a money-making ritual.

And in another act of ritual horror in Onitsha, Anambra State, two young men, Tobechukwu Okorie and Peter Obasi, seized a boy, Monday Emenike, and cut off his sexual organ with the intention of delivering it to a man, who allegedly offered to pay 1.5 million naira ($11,000) for it. In Kaduna, Danladi Damina was arrested after he exhumed the corpse of a 9-year-old boy, plucked out his eyes and cut off his lips, intending to use them for charms. Recently a woman was caught in a bush in Warri, Delta State, decapitating a four-year-old boy for ritual purposes. And while writing this piece, I read in The Guardian (Nigeria) a report of the murder of an 18-year-old girl, identified as Chioma, by suspected ritualists in Mbaise, Imo State.

The question is: why do Nigerians still engage in such bloody, brutal, and barbaric acts and atrocities even in the twenty-first century? For me, there are three reasons:
1 Religion: Nigeria is a deeply religious society. Most Nigerians believe in the existence of supernatural beings and that these transcendental entities can be influenced through ritual acts and sacrifices. Rituals constitute part of the people's traditional religious practice and observance. Nigerians engage in ritual acts to appease the gods, seek supernatural favours, or to ward off misfortune. Many do so out of fear of unpleasant spiritual consequences if they default. So religion, theism, supernaturalism, and occultism are at the root of ritual killing in Nigeria.
2 Superstition: Nigeria is a society where most beliefs are still informed by unreason, dogmas, myth making, and magical thinking. In Nigeria, belief in ghosts, juju, charms, and witchcraft is prevalent and widespread. Nigerians believe that magical potions prepared with human heads, breasts, tongues, eyes, and sexual organs can enhance one's political and financial fortunes; that juju, charms and amulets can protect individuals against business failures, sickness and diseases, accidents, and spiritual attacks. In fact, ritual-making is perceived as an act of spiritual fortification.
3 Poverty: Most often, Nigerians engage ritual killing for money-making purposes. Among Nigerians, there is a popular belief in a special kind of ritual, performed with human blood or body parts that can bring money or wealth, even though such a belief lacks any basis in reason, science or common sense.

For example, there has never been a single proven instance of any Nigerian who became rich through a moneymaking ritual.

And still the belief in "ritual wealth" or "blood money" remains strong among the people and features prominently in the nation's media and film industry. Most times, what we hear are stories and speculations founded on ignorance and hearsay. For instance, Nigerians who enrich themselves through dubious and questionable means, like the scammers who swindle foreigners, are said to have indulged in money-making rituals using the blood or body parts of their parents, wives, children, or other close relations.

So driven by ignorance, poverty, desperation, gullibility, and irrationalism, Nigerians murder fellow Nigerians for rituals. But ritual killing is not a practice limited to Nigeria. Ritual sacrifices also occur in other parts of sub-Saharan Africa, like in Ghana, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Liberia, Uganda, etc. In fact in some parts of Uganda, a child is sacrificed before a major building is erected. There is therefore an urgent need for an international campaign to end this murderous practice and other horrifying traditions and superstitions in Africa. Personally, I am recommending that the United Nations' Inter-Africa Committee includes ritual killing in its programs and campaigns as a harmful traditional practice.

Also, skeptics groups should strive to expose the ignorance, superstition, and unreason that underlie the belief in and practice of ritual killing by organizing public education, awareness, and enlightenment campaigns on science education, critical thinking, and rational inquiry.

The case of Adam underscores the need to internationally confront and combat religious obscurantism, dogmatism, and occultism in Africa and the world at large.

In 2001, there were so many cases of ritual killing in the Lagos metropolis that one of the nation's major newspapers, The Punch, published a scary headline: "Ritualists Lay Siege to Lagos."

Personally, I think that caption would have better read: "Pseudoscience Lays Siege to Nigeria." Because that was the case. And that is still the case.

About the Author
Leo Igwe is head of the Nigerian Skeptics Society. E-mail: nskepticleo@yahoo.com.

http://www.csicop.org/sb/2004-06/nigeria.html
Here is some more news for you Fagunwa. By now I am sure you can see why I said if you were really a Nigerian you have known what goes on and that knowledge would have kept your fingers off the keyboard and made you keep your thoughts to yourself. Big Grin

----------------------------------------------

No Human Heads, No Crown



A quiet revolution is now going on in Owerre Ebeiri community in Orlu local government area of Imo State . Chidi B. Uzomah, a lecturer in Imo State University , Owerri and the new Eze-elect for the community is kicking against ritual killings required by the tradition before he ascends the throne. Though it appears like a one-man riot squad, Uzomah is sure to win the battle.

Newswatch learnt that in the event of the death of the traditional ruler of the community; and the installation of a new one, about 34 human heads - 16 men, 16 women and a set of twins are usually sacrificed to appease the gods.

This, they claim, will enable the dead Eze have an easy passage and to be acceptable to the ancestors. The community has buried 10 Ezes in its life span and had performed the rituals. But Uzomah would not have any of it.

He claimed that God called him to cleanse the rotten system of the ancestors. He told Newswatch that God anointed him to liberate his people from the bondage of a barbaric culture. "That is why I left my job as dean in an American university where I was making $200,000 per year. When they were burying Ezealaeke, Eze Emenaha, his successor produced 34 human heads. That was the order then."

In the community, only strangers are killed in the event of the death of the Eze. Before the advent of the whiteman, there existed a slave market which provided the bulk of humans for such sacrifices. After the destruction of the market by the British soldiers following the abolition of slave trade, village warriors were given the task of providing human heads from distant towns and villages. "These people are crying to God today for justice. That is the trouble Owerre Ebeiri is facing today. This evil committed has been haunting Owerre Ebeiri people. But God has called me to clean up all these rubbish," Uzomah vowed.

That is not the only battle Uzomah has been waging in the community in the past two years. He refused to worship at the shrines and the temples of the ancestors. Instead, he brought about 10 pastors from the Overcomers Christian Mission, Owerri, to demolish some of the shrines. He said the shrines were used by his people to evoke sickness and unleash terror and mayhem on innocent people of the area. He claims to have also cast away the demons that inhabitate the Ofo, the symbol of the community, the Ikenga, and the Amadioha deities. This, he said, was to invoke the spirit of the dead to harm innocent citizens. He specifically mentioned a particular demon brought from Uli ( Anambra State ) by one of his grandfather's wives. This demon, he said, has a shrine at the right side of the palace. Each time Uzomah visited home, the demon would battle with him because nobody sacrifices to it. "I have to go with the pastors and remove the shrine and cast away the demon. If you are not in the main line of the Ezeship, you may not know what is going on there."

That was not all. Uzomah cited the killing of a promising young man by Ezealaeke for rituals. "The mother of the boy went to the village square where she protested naked. She cursed the entire village that nobody should go beyond the age of her son. Ever since then, nobody has started and completed a house. But after the liberation exercise, the difference is there," he said. He told Newswatch that the rebellion against the ancestors had just begun.

He said Owerre Ebeiri people should wait and see what will happen when his father will be no more. "It is not my battle. It's the Lord's battle. The battle, he said started when he was seven years old. The story of Uzomah is very intriguing and revealing. In fact, Uzomah could pass as the proverbial cat with nine lives.

Two years ago, Uzomah had a bitter experience. That was after the day he besieged Owerre Ebeiri with 10 pastors from Owerri. After the liberation exercise, Uzomah was attacked spiritually. "I saw spiritual he-goats flying into my car and I fainted. He was later revived and taken to the church for prayers. The incident did not discourage Uzomah from the revolution he embarked upon.

Uzomah is the 12th crown prince. The traditional institution of Owerre Ebeiri is hereditary. Newswatch was told that those who tried to disrupt the inheritance system had met instant death. A story was told of one Okwara Orisakwe who tried to hijack the throne by claiming to be the head of the royal family. He even contested the Ezeship in the law court between 1980 and 1985 and lost. He later died mysteriously.

The lineage is strictly followed that when Eze Uzomah Nzeukwu died in 1936, the heir apparent , Benjamin Uzomah was only 12 years old. One Nwadike Okwara Ukoma, now late was nominated to represent Uzomah until he became of age. Ukoma was answering Uzomah until he was 24 years when the former stepped aside. Now (Benjamin) Uzomah is 78 years and blind. In order to maintain the lineage, Uzomah anointed Chidi two years ago. In an elaborate ceremony attended by many prominent sons of the town including representatives of Governor Achike Udenwa of Imo State and President Olusegun Obasanjo, the old man transferred the crown to (Chidi) Uzomah, as tradition demanded. "In the Bible King Saul was alive when David was anointed. Saul was old and inefficient that was why David was anointed. So also my father is old and blind, that is the reason for my anointing. My father actually took the crown off his head and placed on mine publicly. We have photographs and video tapes on the ceremony," Uzomah stressed.

That was all Uzomah needed to launch his revolution against a tradition that thrives on human sacrifice. Ever since he started his rebellion against the ancestors Uzomah has attracted more enemies than friends. Uzomah has never known peace in the town. Many prominent sons of Owerre Ebeiri are bent on wrestling the crown from him. They accused him of desecrating and destroying the traditional institution of the community. Uzomah said these men have used all available means in a bid to eliminate him and take over the crown so that they could continue the atrocities of their ancestors. All efforts by the elders of the community to resolve the issue failed.

Prominent among the contenders was one Gilbert Nnabuife. Uzomah told Newswatch that Nnabuife used the death of his son to invite the dreaded Bakassi Boys of Aba to eliminate him (Uzomah). He alleged that Nnabuife paid Bakassi Boys N1.5 million to do the dirty job. The Bakassi Boys arrested him and four others, but instead of killing him, they demanded N100,000 for their release. They paid. He said he alerted the security agents about the threat to his life, but he was ignored.

Uzomah also mentioned one Hilary Mbachu, the parish priest of St. Martin 's Catholic Church, Owerre Ebeiri, an indigene of the town as one of the people instigating the public against him with the aim of snatching the crown from him. Mbachu, he alleged, uses the altar of God as a platform to cause disunity among indigenes of the town. He also accused one Anslem Ikegkwuoha of inciting the traditional religion worshippers against his ascendance to the throne. Uzomah claimed that on the day of his inauguration as the 12th crown prince, Ikegwuoha and his supporters attempted to disrupt the ceremony, "but what happened to him later forced him to run away from the village. Many of them wanted to be Eze to continue the evil of their forefathers."

All efforts to locate Ikegwuoha, Okwara and Nnabuife proved abortive as they were said to have travelled outside the state. However, when Newswatch later traced Mbachu to Saint Martin 's Catholic Church, Tuesday, June 4, he declined comment insisting that he had to get clearance from the Bishop of Orlu Catholic dioceses.

Christian Amadi, Ishimbi of Owerre Ebeiri denied knowledge of such practice as killing during the burial or installation of Ezes in the community. The 86-year-old man also insisted that there was no where in the history of the town where such tradition was recorded. He accused Uzomah of bringing in such sentiments to make him relevant. "All we heard was that our people were very much involved in slave trade before the British soldiers invaded the Orie market and demolished it. Since then Owerre Ebeiri has been a Christian community," he told Newswatch.

Uzomah's father also told Newswatch that nobody has the right to destroy the deities or any traditional practice established by the ancestors. He maintained that the destruction of such traditions would amount to the loss of the community's identity. Newswatch learnt that he had done all the ceremonies to restore the worship and service of those deities weeks after Uzomah had destroyed them.

However, Uzomah has a handful of supporters in the crusade he embarked upon. Many indigenes of the area who would not want their names mentioned confirmed the existence of such barbaric tradition in the area. They fear that Uzomah might fail in the crusade to abolish the culture especially with the calibre of people opposing him.

Canice Okorie, president, Owerre Ebeiri Development Union said the practice of killing human beings in the name of culture or tradition should not be taken lightly. He told Newswatch that he was aware of such practices in different parts of Igboland and beyond. He gave kudos to Uzomah for his effort to eradicate such tradition in the town. "I must commend him for his courage to confront the outdated practice. I condemn such traditions, we have to move out of the bondage of traditional bondage to enable us brace up for the future. Anybody using it (revolution) as a ploy to contest the throne is wasting his time," he assured. Okorie also likened what happened in Calabar where the present Obong refused to be guided by certain traditional norms when he ascended the throne to the situation in Owerre Ebeiri.

He, however, called on the government to intervene and stop "this evil practice" associated with the Ezeship stool in the community.

http://www.onlinenigeria.com/links/adv.asp?blurb=89
'Fagwuna'; Henry38,

No intent to start a thread of flames, innuendo/insults. Please. However, I posted this, not to point fingers as if to say, look at the savage, ignorant Africans. Not even. I posted it to discuss the ongoing issues holding 'progress' from the continent. Of course their are henious goings on within the Christian and Moslem religions. But, I was talking about traditional African religions and these incidents. See the following story:
----------------------------------------------

Priest unrepentent after crucifying of nun

June 18 2005 at 02:46PM

By Laura Chiriac

Tanacu, Romania - A Romanian Orthodox priest who ordered the crucifixion of a young nun because she was "possessed by the devil" and now faces murder charges was unrepentant on Saturday as he celebrated a funeral mass for his alleged victim.

"God has performed a miracle for her, finally Irina is delivered from evil," Father Daniel, 29, the superior of the Holy Trinity monastery in north-eastern Romania, said before celebrating a short mass "for the soul of the deceased", in the presence of 13 nuns who showed no visible emotion.

He insisted that from the religious point of view, the crucifixion of Maricica Irina Cornici, 23, was "entirely justified", but admitted that he faced excommunication as well as prosecution, and was seeking a "good lawyer".--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Cornici had entered the monastery just three months before
Cornici was found dead on Wednesday, gagged and chained to a cross, after fellow nuns called an ambulance, according to police.

Mihaela Straub, spokesperson for the police in the province of Vaslui, said Daniel and four other nuns had claimed Cornici was possessed and should be exorcised.

Before being crucified she had been kept shut up for several days, her hands and feet tied and without food or drink, he said.

Cornici had entered the monastery just three months before, after visiting a friend who was a nun there, police said.

As her coffin entered the church of the monastery Saturday no church bells were sounded while nuns cast distrustful glances at the strangers, including two AFP reporters, present at the ceremony.

'She can't be laid in the church because she was possesed'
Claps of thunder from an approaching storm were sometimes the only sounds to break the silence.

"This storm is proof that the will of God has been done," Daniel said.

"You see it?" said the priest, gesturing at the body, lying in an annexe and still showing the marks of the gag. One of the nuns, Sister Martha, added, "She can't be laid in the church because she was possesed."

Daniel has lived for the past four years in the isolated monastery located in the hills of one of the poorest regions of Romania, without running water or electricity.

"Over there, in your world, the people must know that the devil exists. Personally I can find his work in the gestures and speech of possessed people, because man is often weak and lets himself be easily manipulated by the forces of evil," said the bearded young priest.

"I don't understand why journalists are making such a fuss about this. Exorcism is a common practise in the heart of the Romanian Orthodox church and my methods are not at all unknown to other priests," he said.

A 34-year-old parishioner who had come to defend Daniel and gave her name as Dora, said Sister Irina " had to be punished, she had an argument with the Father during a Sunday mass and insulted him in front of the congregation."

Sociologist Alred Bulai said that corporal punishment was still commonly used in certain Romanian monasteries.

"It's happening particularly in the isolated monasteries, where the superiors have difficulty understanding the current realities and adapting themselves to modern life," Bulai said.

Since the fall of the communist regime in December 1989, the Orthodox Church, which represents 85 percent of Romania's 22

million inhabitants, is rated in many opinion polls as the most trusted institution in the country.

Vitalie Danciu, the superior of a nearby monastery at Golia, called the crucifixion "inexcusable",k but a spokesperson for the Orthodox patriarchate in Bucharest refused to condemn it.

"I don't know what this young woman did," Bogdan Teleanu said. - Sapa-AFP
---------------------------------------------

Dogmatic religious beliefs clearly are behind many violent/vicious, sick and twisted travesties in western, eastern, middle eastern and African practices. So are we clear? Back to the point at hand, the case with the young African boys and so on, is troubling because , I have this somewhat 'Pollyanna' hope for Africa, and this story, and many others, created a cognitive dissonance, when I 'want to' view traditional religion as progressive and a potential alternative to Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
So Fagunwa you know any African country where this nonsense is a national reliigion or belief? Here is a challenge show me any African country that promotes this nonsense and I would say you have a point but I am confident I can go on the web to every African country and their national religion would be cited as Christian or Muslim. That being the case you and others are the one spreading a lie by promoting traditional African religion as if it is the mainstay of daily African life or worship.

I am so glad you mentioned Nigeria because in West Africa it is common knowledge that certain parts of Nigeria are notorious for the evil practice that is being discussed here. Yes we don't hear of no African country but Nigeria. I don't know how much time you spent in Nigeria or you wouldn't dare to try and defend what is indefensible knowing such nastiness goes on in that country. You try it and I can assure you end up with egg on your face by the time we finish the discussion.


I was born in Ile Ife,Nigeria and I am there at least seven times a year. As is the usual case on this board, you didn't read what I posted. Why don't you try that and then maybe you wont need the propaganda. Oh and Benin has traditional religion as it's State religion,but you should know that as you are the voice for African news as long as it fits your views.

Second, this nonsense is not my religion, nor did I advocate the murder of children or anyone else. Once again read what I posted and comment on that if you wish. If you are african you know by the names of the folks in the garbage you posted what they are and you know by my name what I am. You are a xtian and like your masters you mix murder with my religion (Ifa) as a way of keeping people away from the sacred technology. We all know no xtians commit murder in the name of religion. No murders were ever committed in Togo by your masters in the name of religion, none in Benin and surely none in the Congo. No, your masters brought civilization to Africa. Thank you very much for it. I can see how much progress we have made with the civilization.

I do not have to ask if you are African, you sound like many of my people in Nigeria. Going to the pentacostal church's and mosque by day praising jesu and mohammed then coming to my grandfathers compound by night for the real thing. Touting all things british while the brit's rob the country blind with their negro lackeys firmly in charge.

Thank you for the education henry38, my heart is now glad. I will now begin to repent and praise jesu for all of his many gifts to our ancestors.
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
this nonsense is not my religion, nor did I advocate the murder of children or anyone else.

So you say this nonsense is not your religion? It is very good news that you renounce such barbarism. Maybe you can join me in a crusade to wipe this evil out of Nigeria. After that we can go after the traditional religious bastards in South Africa that tell grown men to sleep with children to cure themselves of Aids.

One more thing, you need to get rid of your avatar. It's a monstrosity! Did you know it has a human head sticking out of it? My jaw dropped in disbelief the first time I saw it. Look closely above where the chain and the padlock join in the beastly cauldron, the red patch is the face of a man staring back at you. You can clearly see the eyes and the nose. Ugh, how horrible!!
Henry, you kill me.

Why don't you clear up the thieves, con-men, child molesters, child traffickers ect. in the X-tian community? Or is it just their behavior as individuals when X-tians do evil things to their fellow human beings?

The biggest pentacostal preacher in Kenya was just recently found to be trafficking children to Europe via his church connections with the West.

Also, I could have sworn the 1st article posted said some PASTORS and others have killed children because they said they were witches or posessed by the devil. That sounds like X-tian stuff to me... X-tians that are torturing children because the child is being accused of being a traditionalist(aka witch, possesed by the devil ect. but then again, people who agree with your religious choice can do no wrong huh?

I guess the inquisition, colonization, slavery, Salem witch trials, ect., ect., weren't done in the name of Jesu then... sck
Hey OA I was wondering where you vanished to, I was beginning to think you have run for cover. Welcome to the party.

You see you are not reading right again. Nothing in the Christian faith requests ritual killing. You get that? Nothing and nowhere has this been a request from God. The cases you are talking about as reported are criminals engaged in modern day human trafficking..

Don't let us lose track of what is being reported here. Human body parts, human torsos etc? You simply don't get it, this is an essential part of traditional African religion. The key word is "essential." You want to accuse the Bible of promoting this kind of evil? So you tell me where in the Bible is it required to kill a person and walk about with the murdered person's body bits dangling from your waist? Are you telling me you support the practice common among ritual killers of turning poor innocent kidnapped people into half human half zombies for all sorts of beastly going on? Whew - what is wrong with you?

My advice to you is follow Fagunwa's example and denounce this evil practice.
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
Hey OA I was wondering where you vanished to, I was beginning to think you have run for cover. Welcome to the party.

You see you are not reading right again. Nothing in the Christian faith requests ritual killing.You get that? Nothing and nowhere has this been a request from God.


Jesus wasn't a human sacrifice?

quote:
The cases you are talking about as reported are criminals engaged in modern day human trafficking..


Exactly...done by people who claim to be X-tians, just like people who CLAIM to be traditionalists do the same. But you lump evil folk all together under other religions, But seperate them from your own...You can't have it both ways. People who claim all religious doctrine do f-ed up stuff Henry.

quote:
Don't let us lose track of what is being reported here. Human body parts, human torsos etc? You simply don't get it, this is an essential part of traditional African religion. The key word is [b]"essential."/[b] You want to accuse the Bible of promoting this kind of evil?


I didn't kow you were a follower of traditional spirituality or a Baba to know this? You are just believing the propoganda that X-tians(and massa) put in you head about traditional religion...or have you been to a human sacrifice ritual? TIsk tisk Henry. nono


quote]So you tell me where in the Bible is it required to kill a person and walk about with the murdered person's body bits dangling from your waist? Are you telling me you support the practice common among ritual killers of turning poor innocent kidnapped people into half human half zombies for all sorts of beastly going on? Whew - what is wrong with you?[/quote]

You have been watching too many of the Zombie movies the west puts out about so-called Vooodoo. I see a whole bunch of X-tians who are spiritual and psychological slaves.

quote:
My advice to you is follow Fagunwa's example and denounce this evil practice.


You are an idiot. WHen did I say I was pro-human sacrifice? That's why I don't like looking at or reading about a bloody Florentine faggot hanging from a cross.

Your lack of being able to outside the box is amazingly sad considering you are a grown ass man Henry.

I suggest you continue to defy all logic and continue on your rampage against traditional religion like massa likes your ilk to do. You'll answer to the ancestors one day.

Damn I can't stand thows missionaries for what they did to the African mind.
You trying to tell what is myth and what is true about my traditions OA? Maybe you did not read the reports I posted earlier of how the Nigerians reacted when they discovered the ritualists hiding in their midst. They chased them out and burned down their houses. I am sure to you their reaction was irrational. You are born and bred in America and you try to educate me about my African background? Hmmn and you have the nerve to call me an idiot when the word is written on your forehead? To help illustrate how much you become the rank idiot here is a simple test. Say I with my background write a book on anything to do with Africa and you write one, which one would be accepted as gospel? Work that one out and you would see how ridiculous it is for you to be arguing with me on this subject.
Well, I'm certainly no expert here, but it seems to me that a killing done through a religious ritual may be misguided, outdated and ill-informed ... but, the Christians historically committing murder for the purpose of domination and control and simply out of a sense of superiority over other human beings seems downright evil to me. Eek
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Well, I'm certainly no expert here, but it seems to me that a killing done through a religious ritual may be misguided, outdated and ill-informed ... but, the Christians historically committing murder for the purpose of domination and control and simply out of a sense of superiority over other human beings seems downright evil to me. Eek



My thoughts exactly.....
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Well, I'm certainly no expert here, but it seems to me that a killing done through a religious ritual may be misguided, outdated and ill-informed ... but, the Christians historically committing murder for the purpose of domination and control and simply out of a sense of superiority over other human beings seems downright evil to me. Eek


I do not know whether you know anything about world history, if you did you would find most of the wars in the world were fought under those conditions you have outlined and the Bible or Christianity played no part in it. It is more to do with human nature. For example check out the wars of conquest by the Persians, the Greeks under Alexander, the Roman domination of the world and more recently the Germans and the Japanese.


I think you are missing an important point here so let me repeat it; killing innocent people is an essential part of African traditional religion. The key word is "essential.". This way different from some so called Christian who is doing something that can not be found anywhere in the Bible. Can you understand the difference?

I remember as a young boy growing up, my parent's told me the slaves that made it to the slave boats were the lucky ones. To help you comprehend here is a quote from what I have posted previously;

"In the community, only strangers are killed in the event of the death of the Eze. Before the advent of the whiteman, there existed a slave market which provided the bulk of humans for such sacrifices. After the destruction of the market by the British soldiers following the abolition of slave trade, village warriors were given the task of providing human heads from distant towns and villages."

This is common practice among many African Chiefs not just the Owerre Ebeiri community in Nigeria because it is known the Ashanti and the Benin Empire did such things to their victims.

I don't know about you but I would rather be on a slave boat than have my enemies slaughter me like a piece of chicken and use my body parts as trophies.
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
this nonsense is not my religion, nor did I advocate the murder of children or anyone else.

So you say this nonsense is not your religion? It is very good news that you renounce such barbarism. Maybe you can join me in a crusade to wipe this evil out of Nigeria. After that we can go after the traditional religious bastards in South Africa that tell grown men to sleep with children to cure themselves of Aids.

One more thing, you need to get rid of your avatar. It's a monstrosity! Did you know it has a human head sticking out of it? My jaw dropped in disbelief the first time I saw it. Look closely above where the chain and the padlock join in the beastly cauldron, the red patch is the face of a man staring back at you. You can clearly see the eyes and the nose. Ugh, how horrible!!


Henry38

You dont like my avatar? Well I am so very sorry but my "conversion" is news to me. I am afraid I cannot join you in your mission to wipe out barbarism in Nigeria because we see barbarism differently. You see I think that the british governments control of the dirty politicians here is barbaric. I think deaths from illness and poverty while disgusting "leaders" get fat living in gated communities with armed guards patrolling their grounds is barbaric. I think these european ways of viewing our women as property with no rights as humans, let alone as Iyaami is barbaric beyond belief.

Let's make a pact: you join me in fighting against the wholesale barbarism I have outlined in a small way, and after we rid the country of these dogs and re-enpower the Ogboni and Iyaami councils etc. we will not need to patrol these kooks who think killing children is a blessing. The ways of our ancestors already have ways of dealing with such as these.
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
Let's make a pact: you join me in fighting against the wholesale barbarism I have outlined in a small way, and after we rid the country of these dogs and re-enpower the Ogboni and Iyaami councils etc. we will not need to patrol these kooks who think killing children is a blessing. The ways of our ancestors already have ways of dealing with such as these.


Agreed and I am happy to call you my blood brother in such a quest. Get rid of the bastards whichever form they exist in. I still think you need to to get rid of the avatar. cool
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
I do not know whether you know anything about world history, if you did you would find most of the wars in the world were fought under those conditions you have outlined and the Bible or Christianity played no part in it. It is more to do with human nature. For example check out the wars of conquest by the Persians, the Greeks under Alexander, the Roman domination of the world and more recently the Germans and the Japanese.


I don't know about you but I would rather be on a slave boat than have my enemies slaughter me like a piece of chicken and use my body parts as trophies.


Yes, Henry38, I have some knowledge of world history, but I do not find that because Germans, the Greeks, the Japanese or anybody else, nor their wars erases the fact that Bible-toting Christians used to murder in the name of religion simply because they felt they were superior to those they were killing. It's not a tit-for-tat issue to me ... those other people did it so it's okay if the Christians did it too. That's passing the buck and not acknowledging the wrongs done in the name of your Christian faith.

Your point of killing being an essential part of African traditional religion again points to a notion of ill-conceived ritual. My point of killing to show domination or out of sheer hatred points more to intentional malice ... or evilness.

You would rather be on a slave boat? Well, please believe it would be your enemies, as well, who put you there. And you would not have to worry about your parts being used as trophies ... because they would not care in the least bit about your parts nor your death nor anything about you. At least through ritual, your death is thought to be important. Roll Eyes
Let me get this right, are you saying Alexander the great can destroy the Persian Empire because the Greeks felt a superiority urge but their actions are insignificance if is in comparison to anything done by Christians? Next you would be telling me Jenghis Khan was a saint simply because his actions were outside of Christianity.

I would address this later as it beggars belief so I would come back to it after I clear up a few things with you.

First let me accommodate your history knowledge and you educate on one instance, yes just one instance of how let me see how did you put it? "Of how Christians killed to show domination out of sheer hatred." I may have missed that in the history of this planet so please educate me. Where did this great hatred and the desire to dominate another race take place in the Christian calendar, what were the names of these group of Christians? Where was this war fought and who were the opposing parties?

To make sure that you understand exactly what I am asking of you, please keep this in mind. When Muslim go to war in the name of Islam it is called a "jihad." When Christians take a similar action it is called a "Crusade." I know of one crusade in world history but since it was not fought out of hatred and a desire to dominate as you put it, I must be missing other crusades, so please this is what I need you to educate me on.
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Henry38,

You are injecting way more into this than I am. My point, plainly stated, was that "Christians" have historically killed in the name of their religion. Not out or ritual, but for the purpose of domination and hatred. Period.

Now, while neither adding to nor taking away anything from that one statement, I will add this by way of further explanation.

Christians have murdered their way through numerous countries and peoples, from the beginning ... and very probably still through today. I said nothing of wars. You brought that in, and I will let that be your own discussion, not mine. They have used the Christian religion to dominate and destroy ... and I use hatred as an excuse ... but, it's more out of ignorance and evil. I can't believe you need a history lesson to be told how many Africans, Asians, Europeans, Indians, and multiple varieties of Islanders went through the experience of "Be Christian or Die". All told, it's probably why you're a Christian today, for goodness sakes!!

I never even came close to saying that it was ever okay for anybody to kill anyone else. You totally just made that up and I will not let you attribute that to me. What I have said is that no matter what the Greeks have done or the Germans, or the Japanese or anyone else has done ... Christians have done what they've done too. Period.

In other words, I do not say that it is okay that Christians used their religion to accomodate their belief that our ancestors were animals and therefore it was all right to whip them until they died ... because, look at what the Greeks did!! It was worse!! Eek

Do you?
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
quote:
Originally posted by Fagunwa:
Let's make a pact: you join me in fighting against the wholesale barbarism I have outlined in a small way, and after we rid the country of these dogs and re-enpower the Ogboni and Iyaami councils etc. we will not need to patrol these kooks who think killing children is a blessing. The ways of our ancestors already have ways of dealing with such as these.


Agreed and I am happy to call you my blood brother in such a quest. Get rid of the bastards whichever form they exist in. I still think you need to to get rid of the avatar. cool


That mans you will have to at least [i]comment[/] on threads about colonialism, neo-colonialism, and slavery Henry.

I've yet to see it...but you sure seem to like criticizing any African traditional post as you live in LONDON(a.k.a. can't wait to see if you come through on the side of justice 'NO MATTER WHAT FORM')
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
Christians have done what they've done too. Period.

In other words, I do not say that it is okay that Christians used their religion to accomodate their belief that our ancestors were animals and therefore it was all right to whip them until they died ... because, look at what the Greeks did!! It was worse!! Eek

Do you?


I hope this is not what you meant by the statement, "Christians killed to show domination out of sheer hatred."

If that is the basis of your accusation against Christianity it is preposterous and a downright lie and you know it.

Slavery was done by many people from Arabs, Africans and whites. In fact at certain points in world history everyone was involved with slavery. When did it become the exclusive cornerstone of Christian living or way of life? Apart from that nowhere has it been recorded that the motivation behind slavery was domination or hatred for any particular people. Let alone Christians being the main perpetrators. Unless you are trying to excuse everybody else and blame only the white people who took part in it. By doing that you are the one making white people superior because your position seems to say everyone else's sin was ill conceived or misguided but not whites, they should have known better. Do you understand that? To illustrate, it's like a child and an adult fighting over something. No matter who is right or wrong society always blames the adult because because he/she has more knowledge, experience and therefore should know better not to get into an argument with the child. That is what I understand from your statements. Your position is what elevates the whites to a superior position over the other perpetrators of the crime. Even if we go with that crazy conclusion it still does not explain how Christians come to be exclusively accused for the sins of white men. Your accusation is baseless and has nothing to do with Christians going out with hatred in their heart to dominate and kill or injure anybody.

I take it from this that you have no proof of the accusation against Christianity and that the accusation is at the very least a baseless and groundless allegation and a downright and desperate attempt to smear Christianity.
History is filled with examples of how Christianity was used to either justify murder or racism or some wrong doing against another set of people. One can start with the Prostestians and Catholics as exemplified by the constant struggle between the Irish and the British Government.
Or consider the crusades (there were actually two crusades in the the middle ages) which were not a happy fest of preaching to the lost souls; instead, it involved outright war in which the "Holy Christians" were out to remove the Muslims who had taken over the Holy lands with force albeit they kinda failed.
Or consider the Spanish Inquirision in which the Jesuits used their power to wrongfully imprison and even burn at the stake those they fould quilty of commiting heresy...
Or consider the Salem witch hunt trials in the early 1600s in the town of Salem, Massachussetts where women and children (a few men if any at all) were actually burn ALIVE at the stake for supposedly being caught practicing witchcraft.

Or the fact that even in more recent times, the name of God/Jesus has been invoked to justisfy the act of war...need I say who?

In essense, as Ebonyrose was suggesting, I think that when it comes to human nature, we can and have use a form of higher power to justify doing wrong to a group of people somewhat differ from us in some form or the other and by that, no one offender should boast that their means and end is any better than that of the other...it is all wrong!

On touching slavery, the transatlantic journey was no cake walk by any stretch of the imagination...the movie Almstad gave us a mere insight into the perils that was experienced by the slaves along that fateful trip across the "great river". I mean being stalked up together tighter than sardines in chains sitting in vomit and feces does not seem like paradise. Not to talk less of the fact that these people were simply dumped in the ocean in chains and butt naked straight into the mouths of sharks and what not. No, this was not cool either and definitely not the nicer picture illustrated before.
quote:
Originally posted by folobatuyi:
History is filled with examples of how Christianity was used to either justify murder or racism or some wrong doing against another set of people. One can start with the Prostestians and Catholics as exemplified by the constant struggle between the Irish and the British Government.

This is a war between two Christian countries what it is not is Christians going out with the intention of hate and domination of non Christians. That is what we are trying to ascertain if such a thing was ever done in the name of Christianity.

quote:
Or consider the crusades (there were actually two crusades in the the middle ages) which were not a happy fest of preaching to the lost souls; instead, it involved outright war in which the "Holy Christians" were out to remove the Muslims who had taken over the Holy lands with force albeit they kinda failed.


As you said this was a war to take back what Muslims had taken from the Christian world. That means it was fought with NO evil intent like hating and dominating Muslims etc as we are discussing here. Don't get me wrong there were terrible atrocities especially on the side of the Christians but this was war and in war niceties go out of the window.

Also this example does not come close in comparison to what African Traditional healers do which is to go out with one simple intent and one intent only; murder of their innocent brothers and sisters. Murder is is not the same as war. It is like comparing apples and oranges, they don't even come close

quote:

Or consider the Spanish Inquirision in which the Jesuits used their power to wrongfully imprison and even burn at the stake those they fould quilty of commiting heresy...

I thought your point was about what Christians did to other people who were not Christians not what they did to themselves to keep their religion clean of heresy. This example does not compute because this is Christian upon Christian violence to keep heresy out of their churches
quote:

Or consider the Salem witch hunt trials in the early 1600s in the town of Salem, Massachussetts where women and children (a few men if any at all) were actually burn ALIVE at the stake for supposedly being caught practicing witchcraft.

Trust me on this one across all religions people always react badly to witchcraft. Christianity does not hold a monopoly here. You saw in the example above how the towns people reacted when they found ritualist living in their midst. The reaction is the same everywhere I'm afraid
quote:

Or the fact that even in more recent times, the name of God/Jesus has been invoked to justisfy the act of war...need I say who?

Yes please do. This whole exercise with your post is to show clearly where Christianity has gone to war the clear intention of hate and domination as Ebony put it. So far I have not seen any evidence of it

quote:
In essense, as Ebonyrose was suggesting, I think that when it comes to human nature, we can and have use a form of higher power to justify doing wrong to a group of people somewhat differ from us in some form or the other and by that, no one offender should boast that their means and end is any better than that of the other...it is all wrong!
But that was not what Ebony was saying. If what you just said is what Ebony was saying I would have no problem with it. This is what Ebony was saying.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
"nor their wars erases the fact that Bible-toting Christians used to murder in the name of religion simply because they felt they were superior to those they were killing.........They have used the Christian religion to dominate and destroy ...


My assertion is this is simply not true and I can assure you this has never happened in human history. There has been wars, yes wars to steal and wipe out whole empires like that of the conquistadors but this was not wars fought by Christianity upon other races or cultures. The people who committed these crimes may have been christians but nowhere does it say the war was initiated by the Christian world with the intent of hate and domination of these people or cultures.

Human beings by nature do very bad things. These people when committing these crimes could be members of any religion and the religion in general is not blamed for these individual actions because those actions are not what the religion stands for. To give an example Muslims flying airplanes into the twin towers does not make Islam an evil religion because that is not what Islam stands for but the crimes are the actions of those individuals who used their faith as the platform to launch their hatred of America.

However all of the forgoing is different from traditional African religion whose sole aim is to do terrible things to fellow Africans. For example asking for human heads before a chief is buried or enthroned is murder on a grand scale short and simple. What sort of religion has this evil as it's core practice? It is Devil worship and you know it. You are an African and you know these terrible things happen so please don't excuse it by pointing fingers at what others have done. I am aware of atrocities by other cultures in their history but that is beside the point. This is our problem as continental Africans and we should be focused on eradicating it like Fagunwa has said earlier. What is wrong is to try to prevent or avert scrutiny and investigation from the world community by pretending the situation is not so bad by pointing fingers at others and their history.

quote:

On touching slavery, the transatlantic journey was no cake walk by any stretch of the imagination...the movie Almstad gave us a mere insight into the perils that was experienced by the slaves along that fateful trip across the "great river". I mean being stalked up together tighter than sardines in chains sitting in vomit and feces does not seem like paradise. Not to talk less of the fact that these people were simply dumped in the ocean in chains and butt naked straight into the mouths of sharks and what not. No, this was not cool either and definitely not the nicer picture illustrated before.


This point is very interesting because I believe the intent behind you posting this piece is show what evil white people did to blacks. This desire to shift blame is what I see as the core problem that is plaguing us from the time of slavery till the present day. This statement tells a lot about our character as a people and why it allows us to do terrible things to each other and then refuse to take responsibility for our evil actions.

Let me give you an example, When you sell your daughter into prostitution the sky is the limit to what the punters would do to her. When it comes to blame it is you the parent that started your child on such a path that is to be blamed for everything that happened to her. The punters simply took advantage of the situation. The same applies to slavery. I would say look again at what you posted and let us be filled with deep remorse because if we have not sold our brothers into slavery such terrible things would not have happened to them. The blame lies with the black man that gave his brother into the hands of those that carried out this evil.

History has taught us that if people do not learn from their mistakes, they are prone to repeat such mistakes again and again. Because as continental Africans we refuse to take responsibility for our bad actions be it with slavery or ritual killing, we keep repeating these atrocities again and again for example genocidal actions in Rwanda and Dafur. Until the day we look at our problems squarely in the eye and say "ENOUGH AND NO MORE" Africa would continue to a hellhole with all sorts of sad stories coming out of her.
Henry, my initial statement nor my last question to you has anything to do with Christian wars, of any kind. Let's take that out of the equation, because you keep saying "Ebony said ..., Ebony said ..." but that is not what I am saying at all.

I'm talking about Christians during the time of slavery. And I'm not putting slavery into the context of a war. It was simply a period of time. And my question is:

Are you saying that during the period of slavery, that slaves were not killed by their Christian masters simply because they would not convert to the Christian faith and tried to hold on to their traditional African religion?

You say that you've never seen any evidence that anything like this ever happened. And it did ... but that doesn't mean you believe it!! So, I am just asking you? Yes or no? Do you think that this didn't happen? Confused
Ebony to this particular question my response is, "I do not know." I am not American therefore you are better placed to know what happened to your ancestors. It is a bit unfair to direct that question to me. You are saying it happened to your ancestors, so I accept your word for it. I am not in a postion to check or dispute what you are saying.
Dear Henry38,
Can you honestly say that the crusades were not based on pure hatred of the Muslims by the Christians and vice versa. A good number of wars have been started by hatred or quest for domination. The crusades was all about who dominated the Holy Land...and the fact that there was hatred and mistrust of the muslims by the middle age christians especially in regards to their better technology at the time and skin tone...

As you may have argued that war is different from murder in the case of the Protestans and Catholics or Muslims and Christians, it is interesting to see that it is rather easy for you to merely brush christian to themselves and to others out of their faith as being within the natural limits of war. Of course, war is not equal to murder....it is just substantially involves a hellavu lot more souls meeting an untimely death but is somewhat justified, I guess.

The last time I checked the Irish catholics and the Bristish protestant authority were not exactly shaking hands....need it be said there is an element of hatred towards each other and the desire to maintain domination by the largely protestant British government who seemingly do not want let go of their powers over the Irish/Scots.

As for a more recent example, who else but GW? using his faith as a permission slip to invade a non christain nation in the self-righteous name of extending democracy or more like shooving down the Iraqi nation all in the name of opening up the oil fields in Iraq to the benefit of his cooporate supporters.

In short, just as you advocated that Africans need to take responsibility for the things that they may have done, it is imperative that Christians as the good book suggested, should remove the moot in their own eyes first.

Christianity is just as guilty or even more so because of their own standards (i.e. judge ye not, as you will be judged by the same yardstick you used to judge...paraphrased)as the African traditions.
That's fair, Henry38 Smile

At least it explains to me how you might not know that. It's not, however, anything difficult to find out ... just pick up a book on beginnings of slavery in the United States and you're bound to read about it. It's been very well documented. It is part of our history.

I used to think that the reasons you would say some of the things you did were because you were African. It's not, it's because you're British! Smile It's amazing how alike ... and very, very different our two lands are.

It would be facinating to be able to understand you one day! Big Grin
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
That's fair, Henry38 Smile

At least it explains to me how you might not know that. It's not, however, anything difficult to find out ... just pick up a book on beginnings of slavery in the United States and you're bound to read about it. It's been very well documented. It is part of our history.

Well Ebony, I thouht your allegations was based on oral history from your parents and I was happy to give you the benefit of the doubt and say I did not know. Since you don't know how to quit while you are ahead and kindly informed me this is documented information, you have to provide the source, references and links to back up your allegations. Otherwise it becomes a load of BS. You can not make such allegations knowing there is a source of reference and not provide the link or the reference to back up your accusations.

quote:

I used to think that the reasons you would say some of the things you did were because you were African. It's not, it's because you're British! Smile It's amazing how alike ... and very, very different our two lands are.

Say what things exactly Ebony? I am reading all sorts of things into this statement. Instead of insinuating while don't you come out with what you are infering? For that matter how many Africans do you know to compare me with? I have been on this board from the beginning I don't know many Africans that have come and stayed as I have done. Maybe it is because I'm British as you say. I wonder whether you know how the British are like.
Henry38 ...

If I told you I had oral history from my parents about something that went on during slavery, which one of us would be the bigger idiot .. me for saying it, or you for believing it?? Confused

Consequently, if you told me there was information available about something you were saying, but I called you and it a liar, simply because I was too lazy to look it up for myself, I would be doing you an injustice. Whether or not I choose to see if you are speaking about true things that happened shouldn't make you a liar or what you say BS! However, I'm not really in the mood to prove anything to you, Henry, considering your attitude, so I will keep my BS to myself, and you will remain ignorant of African American history. For now, anyway.

What I am inferring about some of the things you say is primarily anything/everything you say. Whether it is about Africa, history, child-raising, religion, the government, your country, my country ... you name it. I have experience with my fair share of African people, considering I'm not really as prejudiced as you seem to be. Anybody/everybody I've ever talked to, regardless of ethnic origin knows and agrees that there are differences in thinking and concept between Continental Africans and African Americans (except probably you - whose thinking is just different, period). I'm finding out how the British are like, from interacting with you and others. I don't profess to be an expert, no. But, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize you are one of a kind.

And you can read that anyway you like, sweetie. Smile
Ebony don't take the injured tone after the sarcastic tone you adopted by telling me to go to a Library and look it up. This is one of the things I don't like about some of you. Your hypocritical attitude. You start a fight and when you get as good as you dish out then you act like butter won't melt in your mouth. If I am coming hard on you Ebony, you brought it upon yourself. I have never been rude to you but this morning all I got was a load of sarcasm from your post and as far as I am concerned if that is how you wanna play from now on, I would happily oblige you.

With regard to your allegations, unfortunately for you I am more aware of American history than you realize Ebony. As you said it is well documented and I have taken the trouble to learn so much of it. The problem is I have never come across anything you alleged so I assumed that it might be oral history. Now that you yourself have made it known that this is true history this means you must have read it sometime in your life. This means you must at the very least know the title and author of the publication. This is the information age, things can be easily and quickly checked. You claim the information, my challenge to you is back it up with supporting evidence by way of links or references, otherwise it simply becomes something you made up to waste my time.

Finally as you said, "I can read your post anyway I like." I have and it is well noted and filed. All I can tell you it is very foolish to make enemies out of people when it is clearly unnecessary. Have a nice day.
quote:
Originally posted by henry38:
Since you don't know how to quit while you are ahead and kindly informed me this is documented information, you have to provide the source, references and links to back up your allegations. Otherwise it becomes a load of BS.


Indeed, Henry38 ... I don't know how on earth I could not see the kindness and respect in your above statement. Silly me! Why, I can't count the number of people who offer me their respect by telling me that what I've said is a load of BS!! Shame on me for not feeling honored by you!

Perhaps I should have reciprocated the honor by saying that unless you can bring me the person who has firsthand knowledge that the Bible is the word of Jesus, then your lack of proof makes your statement just as much BS as the words coming off of my keyboard as well.

I can believe that you have never meant to be rude in the things you say, Henry38 ... but, unfortunately, on more than one occasion you have failed. In one post you say this:
quote:
Ebony to this particular question my response is, "I do not know." I am not American therefore you are better placed to know what happened to your ancestors. It is a bit unfair to direct that question to me. You are saying it happened to your ancestors, so I accept your word for it. I am not in a postion to check or dispute what you are saying.


In the next you say you do, in fact, know American history ... however that that you don't know is BS ... whether simply because you don't know it, or because I, an American, am telling it to you.

I probably will, eventually, give you some references to documentation that supports the widely known history of slaves being killed to make an example of them for other slaves who were not anxious to convert to Christianity. I don't keep titles and authors in my head ... I tend to save that memory space for the information they provide. Had you asked me in a less rude way to provide you with it, I might have taken the time to do it by now. But you didn't and I haven't. Obviously you're not interested in knowing, anyway. And that, too, is fine with me.
quote:
Originally posted by EbonyRose:
I probably will, eventually, give you some references to documentation that supports the widely known history of slaves being killed to make an example of them for other slaves who were not anxious to convert to Christianity. I don't keep titles and authors in my head ... I tend to save that memory space for the information they provide. Had you asked me in a less rude way to provide you with it, I might have taken the time to do it by now. But you didn't and I haven't. Obviously you're not interested in knowing, anyway. And that, too, is fine with me.


Funny, I thought it would just be common sense to figure out that we got our asses kicked in the name of Jesus, and that folks may not have WANTED to voluntarily give up the ways of their ancestors for the ways of the oppressors that were raping and exploiting them...Go figure ER.

Henry,

For all your X-tian holier than thow attitude, you sure have an attitude problem, even with folks as patient with you as ER.

BTW that "you weren't born their crap" doesn't work with me Henry. I know plenty of continental born Africans that don't know much about what went on or is going on on the continent in general or in their own respective countries...many are brain washed by their colonial masters... I don't subscribe to competitions of who is more 'African'. I don't want to compete with my brothers and sisters.

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